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2024/11/06

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2024-11-06 00:58:37 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2024-11-06 01:22:51 +0100 <jackdk> Standards pricing is just obscene, TBQH. There has to be a way to compensate experts for their work without certain companies getting to overcharge for ancient documents forever.
2024-11-06 01:23:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 01:32:02 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 01:34:09 +0100 <constxd> mauke: my understanding is wg14 intentionally makes drafts public that are as close as possible to the final revision to circumvent the ISO pricing absurdity
2024-11-06 01:34:38 +0100 <constxd> i was reading somewhere that they are like grandfathered in, most ISO standards have tighter restrictions on what can be released as a draft
2024-11-06 01:34:51 +0100 <constxd> but basically there is no reason to buy the C standard
2024-11-06 01:39:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 01:48:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> is there a way to save the current ghci session?
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2024-11-06 01:55:16 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 01:58:32 +0100 <monochrom> I am not even convinced that the authors of the standards are compensated at all.
2024-11-06 01:59:21 +0100 <monochrom> Right? I'm taking inspiration from the way academic journals work. The journal publishers get all the money. The editors and the peer reviewers do it all for free.
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2024-11-06 02:00:03 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-11-06 02:01:40 +0100 <monochrom> To the point even Knuth is sufficiently fed up to write an article to complain and advocate everyone to jump ship and start free online journals.
2024-11-06 02:03:28 +0100 <monochrom> zwro: There is no plan to follow Python absurdity and evolve GHCi into its own IDE.
2024-11-06 02:03:31 +0100 <constxd> yes i think the actual members of the ISO working groups are essentially volunteers
2024-11-06 02:04:14 +0100 <constxd> what do u mean python absurdity? ipython?
2024-11-06 02:05:35 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-11-06 02:07:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> monochrom: (: https://nbviewer.org/github/gibiansky/IHaskell/blob/master/notebooks/IHaskell.ipynb
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2024-11-06 02:10:16 +0100 <zero> anyways i just want something like node's repl where it basically saves the session history to a file. i guess i can go edit .ghci_history manually...
2024-11-06 02:10:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:11:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> zero: there has been a blog post or two about a way to save/restore ghci state, by chris done I think
2024-11-06 02:12:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> https://chrisdone.com/posts/ghci-reload maybe
2024-11-06 02:12:57 +0100 <monochrom> constxd: This: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/multiline-interpreter-with-editing-of-previous-lines/10551
2024-11-06 02:13:29 +0100 <monochrom> tl;dr the python REPL is now its own editor.
2024-11-06 02:14:29 +0100 <monochrom> This is different from iPython and iHaskell. I have no quarrel with them.
2024-11-06 02:14:37 +0100 <constxd> ah
2024-11-06 02:15:26 +0100 <monochrom> Instead, since iPython and iHaskell exist, there is no point duplicating the effort in the basic REPL.
2024-11-06 02:15:41 +0100 <zero> ooh is this hot reloading?
2024-11-06 02:15:56 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:16:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> try it out, let us know ?
2024-11-06 02:16:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> +how it goes
2024-11-06 02:18:15 +0100 <constxd> wouldn't be the end of the world imo if it's "for free" by virtue of being built into libreadline or something
2024-11-06 02:18:35 +0100 <constxd> but yeah i wouldn't want to implement that and maintain it as a part of a REPL
2024-11-06 02:18:36 +0100 <monochrom> In the particular case of GHCi, given that dev time is a zero-sum game, when (not if, it's a certainty) the devs have to choose between improving GHCi's debugger and adding an editor to GHCi, why would anyone want the latter? Isn't debugger a much higher priority? Editors already exist, plentiifully.
2024-11-06 02:19:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> dev time doesn't always have to be zero sum in FOSS.. motivated new devs / funders sometimes show up
2024-11-06 02:19:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> just saying
2024-11-06 02:21:59 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-11-06 02:22:07 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 02:23:51 +0100 <zero> foreign-store is hacky. i would be more interested in something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rapid-0.1.4/docs/Rapid.html
2024-11-06 02:24:50 +0100 <zero> which wraps it "nicely"
2024-11-06 02:24:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I could imagine integrating an already-maintained TUI editor (yi ?) could also be the way to improve GHCI's debugger, because a more visual UI is what it needs
2024-11-06 02:25:15 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> or anyway, _a_ way
2024-11-06 02:25:50 +0100postcerebral(~postcereb@user/postcerebral) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2)
2024-11-06 02:25:51 +0100 <monochrom> In practice, that doesn't happen often enough in the Haskell community. Look at how GHCi debugger has not received any further work, and how HLS still doesn't have any debugger. Even the GHCup effort is wearing thin and the guy is complaining: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/priorities-for-upcoming-ghc-releases/9605/60
2024-11-06 02:26:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:26:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> and sometimes a monolithic just works out of box tool is the only thing that'll get used
2024-11-06 02:26:29 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:26:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I promise you this one would
2024-11-06 02:26:47 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2024-11-06 02:28:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I have got the VS Code debugger extension working once, and it was so fragile and little known that pretty much no-one else will
2024-11-06 02:29:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> a built in cheaper just works ui could help build the foundation
2024-11-06 02:30:36 +0100 <monochrom> https://ro-che.info/ccc/26
2024-11-06 02:32:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I think in this cartoon, something is missing from the company's offering. We just don't know what it is :)
2024-11-06 02:33:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:33:11 +0100 <monochrom> IIRC the company is precisely FPComplete.
2024-11-06 02:34:23 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Ok. That IDE was good as I recall ! Lots of people had a beef with FP Complete so it had an uphill path.
2024-11-06 02:34:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Not a debugger thought
2024-11-06 02:34:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> * UI though, that's what I'm thinking of particularly
2024-11-06 02:35:30 +0100 <monochrom> Debugger is extremely hard. I don't really complain about lacking it.
2024-11-06 02:36:00 +0100 <monochrom> OTOH, a nice IDE that lacks debugging feels like lacking a soul.
2024-11-06 02:36:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> It doesn't seem _that_ hard. GHCI already has the core of it, and https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=phoityne.phoityne-vscode is an example of a UI on top
2024-11-06 02:38:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> someone could whip that up in brick
2024-11-06 02:39:41 +0100 <monochrom> Oh it's an extreme case of the 80-20 rule. Or at this extreme it's like a 99.99-0.01 rule. Hat, Buddha, GHCi, and that plug in prove that prototyping a Haskell debugger is easy, sure, and at the same time by their incompleteness and even bitrot, also prove that actually covering all of Haskell is way too annoying for anyone to finish it.
2024-11-06 02:39:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> wait, didn't I see that already...
2024-11-06 02:41:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> monochrom: I think those things prove that packaging and integration are also necessary.. so all of those are dead.. except the debugger built in to GHCI, which works perfectly (or anyway, works)
2024-11-06 02:41:26 +0100 <monochrom> The cartoon? Yes I always link to it to rub it into people's faces.
2024-11-06 02:41:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I did see a more recent brick based debugger ui. I'd find it, if hackage wasn't down just now
2024-11-06 02:42:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> what can an IDE provide that a language server can't?
2024-11-06 02:42:31 +0100 <monochrom> A face? :)
2024-11-06 02:42:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> I don't think people like changing editors just for the language
2024-11-06 02:43:04 +0100 <monochrom> I talked about lacking a soul, but when you do have a soul, it needs a body too...
2024-11-06 02:43:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> a language server is a small internal component that lets IDEs communicate with the language tools
2024-11-06 02:44:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:44:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> sm: the "plus a capable editor" was implied in my question
2024-11-06 02:44:57 +0100 <monochrom> Right exactly. I wouldn't change editors just for the language. So I wouldn't need a "save" button in the language's REPL either. My favourite editor already has one.
2024-11-06 02:46:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> how do you save a ghci session with your editor?
2024-11-06 02:47:16 +0100 <monochrom> By creating a "play.hs" file that has all the experimental expressions I want to try out in a session.
2024-11-06 02:47:49 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 02:48:09 +0100 <monochrom> Not currently done but available: I'm in emacs and my ghci session is also in emacs so in principle I would save that buffer content...
2024-11-06 02:48:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> There's quite a few https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=debug things, though most of them are not traditional debuggers allowing interactive stepping. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-debug-brick is the recent one I was thinking of.
2024-11-06 02:48:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:48:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> at that point you might aswell use ghcid
2024-11-06 02:49:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> zwro: yes rapid is a good find, that's the newer thing built on top of foreign store
2024-11-06 02:49:17 +0100 <Leary> zwro: Yes, so use ghcid. :)
2024-11-06 02:49:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> * foreign-store
2024-11-06 02:49:29 +0100tabaqui(~root@91.73.194.130) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:50:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> Leary: i usually do :) that's why i missed a :save command when i happened to use ghci for something quick on my phone
2024-11-06 02:50:55 +0100 <monochrom> Oh, phone. Then I sympathize.
2024-11-06 02:51:08 +0100 <monochrom> But you should use emacs on your phone instead. >:)
2024-11-06 02:51:18 +0100 <monochrom> "go big or go home"
2024-11-06 02:51:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> i'm using vim on my phone >>)
2024-11-06 02:51:30 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:51:43 +0100 <monochrom> I imagine vim should have something similar?
2024-11-06 02:52:15 +0100 <monochrom> I mean why would there be a war (or why it hasn't ended already) if they were not on par.
2024-11-06 02:52:31 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:52:41 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> similar to what?
2024-11-06 02:53:11 +0100 <monochrom> some haskell plugin for vim so you can also have a ghci session in a vim window/buffer.
2024-11-06 02:53:30 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 02:53:39 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-06 02:53:50 +0100 <monochrom> If that doesn't exist, come join us in emacs! >:)
2024-11-06 02:53:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> oh you don't need a plugin. you can just run ghcid directly in a vim buffer :)
2024-11-06 02:54:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I really don't like this "The type synonym ‘YulP’ should have 2 arguments, but has been given 1"
2024-11-06 02:54:02 +0100 <haskellbridge> Is there a good general workaround?
2024-11-06 02:54:08 +0100 <monochrom> OK that. :)
2024-11-06 02:54:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> but ghcid is what's missing on my phone
2024-11-06 02:54:48 +0100 <monochrom> General? How general can you take it? The most general, IMO anyway, is to use newtype altogether.
2024-11-06 02:55:20 +0100 <constxd> u know how the zsh and bash shells have a key binding called C-x C-e ?
2024-11-06 02:55:44 +0100 <constxd> that is trivial enough to add into something like GHCi and it gives u perhaps something useful
2024-11-06 02:55:53 +0100 <constxd> just an idea
2024-11-06 02:56:53 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 02:57:05 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> yes!
2024-11-06 02:57:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> that would be neat
2024-11-06 02:57:15 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-06 02:57:50 +0100 <monochrom> TIL bash C-x C-e edit-and-execute-command.
2024-11-06 02:58:17 +0100 <monochrom> Thanks constxd. I had always opened up emacs and draft my command when I needed that.
2024-11-06 02:58:20 +0100 <probie> hellwolf: Perhaps https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/liberal_type_synonyms.html can do what you want, but it is still rather restricted
2024-11-06 02:58:22 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:58:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> just like pressing v inside less opens your $EDITOR
2024-11-06 02:58:41 +0100flounders(~flounders@2607:fb91:f6f:855:576:16c:1a7a:3eb2) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:59:20 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:59:35 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:00:28 +0100flounders(~flounders@173.246.200.74) flounders
2024-11-06 03:00:39 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah edit-and-execute would be great, both easy and valuable.
2024-11-06 03:02:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> also if you have vi-style bindings in your shell with `set -o vi`, pressing v while in normal mode also achieves this
2024-11-06 03:02:10 +0100monochromcan now use C-x C-e to take time to craft docker commands that have 20 options...
2024-11-06 03:03:20 +0100 <monochrom> I can also tell my students about this. It will help in the unix course.
2024-11-06 03:04:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:05:07 +0100spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) (Quit: spew)
2024-11-06 03:06:47 +0100 <monochrom> Is it actually provided by the underlying readline? Because once upon a time, GHCi used readline as opposed to today's haskeline...
2024-11-06 03:07:37 +0100 <monochrom> Would be funny if GHCi missed that opportunity...
2024-11-06 03:08:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> ghci used readline? how i miss vim bindings in ghci
2024-11-06 03:10:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> oh wait, does haskeline support it?
2024-11-06 03:10:24 +0100 <monochrom> I think no. I just tried.
2024-11-06 03:10:46 +0100 <Leary> zwro: echo 'editMode: Vi' > ~/.haskeline
2024-11-06 03:11:10 +0100 <monochrom> Oh just vim bindings. Then yeah.
2024-11-06 03:12:15 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:13:11 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) notzmv
2024-11-06 03:14:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> Leary: tyvm
2024-11-06 03:14:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:17:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Ah! finally. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghcitui is the one I was thinking of.
2024-11-06 03:17:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> needs more users
2024-11-06 03:19:03 +0100 <geekosaur> ghci originally used readline, but that caused build issues on Windows (not there) and Macs (Apple ships a fake "readline") so someone wrote haskeline
2024-11-06 03:19:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:26:31 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm I should try that.
2024-11-06 03:28:52 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm it wants containers >= 0.6.8? That's neeewwww....
2024-11-06 03:30:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:34:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:40:32 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 03:41:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> stack notes added at https://github.com/CrystalSplitter/ghcitui/issues/30
2024-11-06 03:44:57 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2024-11-06 04:19:18 +0100tyzef(~tyzef@user/tyzef) tyzef
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2024-11-06 04:35:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> e
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2024-11-06 06:37:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 07:23:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 07:27:42 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@95.91.137.87) CoolMa7
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2024-11-06 07:42:06 +0100hgolden_(~hgolden@204.152.216.122) hgolden
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2024-11-06 07:53:38 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 08:09:06 +0100libertyprime(~libertypr@118-92-73-199.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) libertyprime
2024-11-06 08:14:06 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
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2024-11-06 08:35:04 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-11-06 08:47:46 +0100Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2024-11-06 09:00:02 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
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2024-11-06 09:00:40 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
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2024-11-06 09:11:15 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2024-11-06 09:11:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 09:12:34 +0100_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-}
2024-11-06 09:16:34 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
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2024-11-06 09:39:44 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
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2024-11-06 10:00:21 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2024-11-06 10:07:35 +0100supercode(~supercode@user/supercode) supercode
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2024-11-06 10:22:09 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2024-11-06 10:33:45 +0100libertyprime(~libertypr@118-92-73-199.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) libertyprime
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2024-11-06 10:48:32 +0100zeroyin
2024-11-06 10:48:50 +0100 <yin> ugh. ghcitui uses monad transformers
2024-11-06 10:54:01 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@77.119.163.56.wireless.dyn.drei.com) ubert
2024-11-06 10:56:38 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2024-11-06 10:57:42 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 10:57:53 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-11-06 10:58:24 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2024-11-06 10:58:56 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2024-11-06 11:02:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-11-06 11:05:08 +0100 <institor> yin: so?
2024-11-06 11:08:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 11:16:51 +0100 <yin> i'm allergic to mtl
2024-11-06 11:17:56 +0100 <yin> seems like an unnecessary opinionated dependence
2024-11-06 11:19:41 +0100 <Leary> transformers isn't mtl
2024-11-06 11:22:56 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
2024-11-06 11:23:58 +0100 <institor> yin: how do you layer effects then
2024-11-06 11:24:18 +0100 <institor> yin: e.g. ExceptT e IO a, for IO actions that might fail
2024-11-06 11:24:40 +0100 <institor> i suppose you could use one of those fancy effects libraries, but that seems even more opinionated
2024-11-06 11:25:59 +0100 <Leary> Bad example; any IO action might fail, and its built in exception system is recommended over ExceptT.
2024-11-06 11:26:46 +0100 <institor> well suppose i'm running HTTP requests
2024-11-06 11:26:52 +0100 <institor> and i could get Right with some payload
2024-11-06 11:26:57 +0100 <institor> or Left in the event of a 4xx or 5xx error
2024-11-06 11:27:10 +0100 <institor> it's really the Either after runExceptT that I care about
2024-11-06 11:33:53 +0100 <yin> institor: you don't *need* transformers but i get that they are useful. in any case, i defend that their use should be internal and not exposed to the user of your library
2024-11-06 11:35:54 +0100 <yin> see yesod, servant, warp...
2024-11-06 11:38:15 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 11:38:41 +0100longlongdouble(~longlongd@2405:201:5c16:135:1989:242:cab1:419a) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 11:41:33 +0100 <yin> Leary: right, i should have said transformers and not mtl in particular
2024-11-06 11:41:56 +0100l-Shane-l(~l-Shane-l@user/l-Shane-l) l-Shane-l
2024-11-06 11:41:57 +0100landonf(landonf@mac68k.info) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 11:42:08 +0100landonf(landonf@mac68k.info)
2024-11-06 11:42:39 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) notzmv
2024-11-06 11:42:58 +0100 <Leary> Weird, because unlike transformers, your objections might actually apply to mtl. The former is not at all an opinionated dependency.
2024-11-06 11:42:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 11:43:10 +0100 <institor> yin: those libraries are all by the same author
2024-11-06 11:45:55 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 11:47:15 +0100 <Leary> Also, ghcitui is first and foremost an executable; the library component it exposes is secondary, so the transformer usage pretty much is internal.
2024-11-06 11:47:46 +0100 <yin> Leary: good point
2024-11-06 11:48:55 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3e16:56e8:fa8f:748e)
2024-11-06 11:59:01 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2)
2024-11-06 12:03:17 +0100longlongdouble(~longlongd@117.234.233.245)
2024-11-06 12:05:17 +0100 <mauke> is hackage ok?
2024-11-06 12:09:35 +0100 <institor> it's been slow
2024-11-06 12:09:42 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 12:10:20 +0100SlackCoder(~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) SlackCoder
2024-11-06 12:14:05 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 12:15:37 +0100 <yin> yeah i've been getting 502s
2024-11-06 12:19:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's being investigated in #hackage-infrastructure
2024-11-06 12:19:06 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-11-06 12:19:07 +0100libertyprime(~libertypr@118-92-73-199.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 12:20:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> er, #haskell-infrastructure
2024-11-06 12:24:36 +0100tyzef(~tyzef@user/tyzef) tyzef
2024-11-06 12:31:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 12:37:38 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) BolzmannPain
2024-11-06 12:39:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 12:40:19 +0100Everything(~Everythin@195.138.86.118) Everything
2024-11-06 12:42:41 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 12:43:05 +0100l-Shane-l(~l-Shane-l@user/l-Shane-l) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-11-06 12:47:51 +0100Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2024-11-06 12:48:13 +0100mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) mreh
2024-11-06 12:48:31 +0100tyzef(~tyzef@user/tyzef) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2024-11-06 12:52:08 +0100 <absence> Is anyone familiar with the internals of the effectful library and know what the parameters to the Effect kind represent? type Effect = (Type -> Type) -> Type -> Type
2024-11-06 12:58:29 +0100sroso(~sroso@user/SrOso) (Quit: Leaving :))
2024-11-06 13:02:37 +0100 <absence> Oh right, it's the monad and return value. Effect m a
2024-11-06 13:04:01 +0100mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-11-06 13:09:21 +0100emmanuelux_(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2024-11-06 13:10:02 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:10:02 +0100motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:10:27 +0100motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) motherfsck
2024-11-06 13:12:12 +0100emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:17:04 +0100ham2(~ham@user/ham) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:21:14 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-11-06 13:22:16 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 13:22:43 +0100Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: brb)
2024-11-06 13:24:36 +0100Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2024-11-06 13:27:25 +0100longlongdouble(~longlongd@117.234.233.245) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 13:29:05 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-11-06 13:29:23 +0100byorgey(~byorgey@user/byorgey) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:29:30 +0100byorgey(~byorgey@user/byorgey) byorgey
2024-11-06 13:30:19 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@128.90.141.20) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 13:35:38 +0100CoolMa7_(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 13:36:26 +0100ham2(~ham@user/ham) ham
2024-11-06 13:36:45 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@128.90.141.20) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:46:01 +0100 <yin> do we have to use text in order to import Text?
2024-11-06 13:46:54 +0100 <yin> Data.Text
2024-11-06 13:47:11 +0100 <yin> i ask this because base has stuff like Text.Read
2024-11-06 13:48:15 +0100 <Rembane> yin: Nope, you can use read from Text.Read without importing Text.
2024-11-06 13:54:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> yin: module namespace are orthogonal to packages; `base` having `Text.Read` doesn't have anything to do with `text`
2024-11-06 13:54:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> but yes, Data.Text is in `text`
2024-11-06 13:56:17 +0100Everything(~Everythin@195.138.86.118) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 13:58:16 +0100Everything(~Everythin@178-133-20-16.mobile.vf-ua.net) Everything
2024-11-06 14:06:26 +0100 <merijn> Also, notably, Text.Read doesn't actually use Text :p
2024-11-06 14:06:42 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-11-06 14:09:09 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) lortabac
2024-11-06 14:10:40 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) BolzmannPain
2024-11-06 14:15:00 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-11-06 14:16:09 +0100CoolMa7_(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-11-06 14:17:31 +0100TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 14:17:45 +0100 <yin> merijn: yeah i was confused
2024-11-06 14:18:28 +0100TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) TheCoffeMaker
2024-11-06 14:18:31 +0100 <yin> hackage being down didn't help
2024-11-06 14:23:06 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 14:24:59 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 14:27:46 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 14:27:50 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Client Quit)
2024-11-06 14:28:13 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 14:31:36 +0100Otabek(~Otabek@213.230.93.9)
2024-11-06 14:32:13 +0100 <Otabek> hey there
2024-11-06 14:32:55 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 14:41:37 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 14:41:51 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-06 14:42:06 +0100Otabek(~Otabek@213.230.93.9) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-11-06 14:47:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 14:48:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 14:49:26 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 14:51:06 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2024-11-06 14:51:51 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 14:52:50 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-007-150-185.176.7.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-11-06 14:55:50 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-11-06 14:57:34 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-11-06 15:04:22 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) BolzmannPain
2024-11-06 15:05:41 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Quit: ljdarj)
2024-11-06 15:05:59 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2024-11-06 15:07:26 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) ystael
2024-11-06 15:08:19 +0100ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2024-11-06 15:12:43 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-11-06 15:12:43 +0100ljdarj1ljdarj
2024-11-06 15:12:44 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-11-06 15:12:59 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 15:18:23 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@95.91.137.87) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 15:21:41 +0100SlackCoder(~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-11-06 15:23:49 +0100 <Inst> honestly, when i think about it, and after arguing with lispers as to whether they have monads
2024-11-06 15:24:21 +0100 <Inst> one of haskell's unique strengths is having both purity / referential transparency and a strong static type system
2024-11-06 15:24:50 +0100 <Inst> when you look at (a -> a), without strong static types and pure functions, Normand's right in that this function cuold mean anything
2024-11-06 15:25:06 +0100 <Inst> just as, in Haskell, it could be anything when you stuff in unsafePerformIO
2024-11-06 15:26:02 +0100 <Inst> Haskell, unique for not-completely-research languages, with its type system and effect control, allows people to have a true concept of a composable pure function
2024-11-06 15:31:41 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square) Square
2024-11-06 15:31:43 +0100 <yin> wasn't there an alternative to hackage for documentation?
2024-11-06 15:32:11 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 15:35:56 +0100 <kuribas> Inst: don't confuse (a -> a) with (Any -> Any).
2024-11-06 15:36:40 +0100 <kuribas> Firstly, (a -> a) is typechecked, unlike the Any one. Secondly it requires the input type to be equal to the output type.
2024-11-06 15:36:50 +0100 <kuribas> That already reduces the number of possible types.
2024-11-06 15:37:33 +0100 <kuribas> Inst: with side effects you would get something like ocaml.
2024-11-06 15:38:38 +0100noblehelm(~noblehelm@200.17.111.30) noblehelm
2024-11-06 15:39:48 +0100son0p(~ff@181.237.206.243) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 15:42:55 +0100 <Leary> yin: stackage.org
2024-11-06 15:46:26 +0100aforemny(~aforemny@i577B13E8.versanet.de) aforemny
2024-11-06 15:48:09 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) ()
2024-11-06 15:49:38 +0100Everything(~Everythin@178-133-20-16.mobile.vf-ua.net) (Quit: leaving)
2024-11-06 15:51:05 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-11-06 15:54:16 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 15:58:29 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 16:05:11 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh
2024-11-06 16:06:37 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2024-11-06 16:16:38 +0100alphazone(~alphazone@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 16:18:12 +0100 <yin> Leary: ty
2024-11-06 16:25:01 +0100alphazone(~alphazone@2.219.56.221)
2024-11-06 16:25:55 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 16:26:44 +0100spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) spew
2024-11-06 16:27:03 +0100noblehelm(~noblehelm@200.17.111.30) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-11-06 16:30:27 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-11-06 16:38:15 +0100hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 16:42:16 +0100EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR
2024-11-06 16:43:29 +0100spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 16:44:59 +0100kilolympus(~kilolympu@2a04:ee41:4:32b3:6573:d8d:c873:5381) kilolympus
2024-11-06 16:45:20 +0100 <kilolympus> Hi, not sure if this is the right place to ask, but is Hackage down for other people as well?
2024-11-06 16:47:08 +0100BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-11-06 16:48:03 +0100 <kuribas> yes
2024-11-06 16:50:35 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 16:51:13 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Client Quit)
2024-11-06 16:51:31 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
2024-11-06 16:53:10 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2024-11-06 17:00:21 +0100lbseale_(~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:02:02 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> its maintained by some guy isn it?
2024-11-06 17:02:34 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> rather than glasgow or whatever
2024-11-06 17:02:54 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> expect outages in such a situation
2024-11-06 17:03:01 +0100 <Hecate> it's not "maintained by some guy"
2024-11-06 17:03:16 +0100 <Hecate> there has been lots of traffic from malicious AI scraper bots
2024-11-06 17:03:29 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> ah
2024-11-06 17:03:30 +0100 <Hecate> and the tech team is tweaking the cloudflare config right now
2024-11-06 17:03:39 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> i c
2024-11-06 17:03:41 +0100 <Hecate> I've seen them in my own application logs as well
2024-11-06 17:05:47 +0100 <Inst> (a -> a) also implies that there's no ability to read the content of the data besides knowing that it exists
2024-11-06 17:06:29 +0100 <Inst> thanks for all the work, Hecate
2024-11-06 17:07:00 +0100 <Inst> also (Any -> Any) is actually (a -> b), when you think of it, no?
2024-11-06 17:07:08 +0100 <Inst> kuribas
2024-11-06 17:08:49 +0100 <Inst> hmmm, probably not, since it makes itself meaningful by Any being a wrapper over types, i.e, if you consider Any -> Any to be typeless, it's essentially (a -> b), if you consider Any -> Any to be equivalent to Dynamic -> Dynamic, then it's a different content
2024-11-06 17:09:01 +0100sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f45f600c5ad94218b2aa1c2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-11-06 17:09:52 +0100spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) spew
2024-11-06 17:10:20 +0100 <JuanDaugherty> the apex doesn even refer to hackage, just blather about 'community'
2024-11-06 17:12:17 +0100Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2024-11-06 17:12:44 +0100Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:12:50 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 17:13:00 +0100 <EvanR> Inst, Any (uhg at this name, but it corresponds with typescript) means you don't know what the type is. a -> b means the caller can choose to instantiate a or b at any type they want
2024-11-06 17:13:30 +0100 <Inst> iirc there's an Any in the GHC internal somewhere
2024-11-06 17:13:31 +0100 <EvanR> so Any = some type, while a = any type.
2024-11-06 17:13:48 +0100 <EvanR> that's what we're talking about
2024-11-06 17:14:29 +0100 <Inst> what does Any -> Any even mean in a Haskell context?
2024-11-06 17:15:00 +0100 <EvanR> it's a function type for functions that expect an Any as argument (explained above) and return an Any, which is not necessarily related to the input at all
2024-11-06 17:15:02 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
2024-11-06 17:16:13 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2024-11-06 17:16:18 +0100 <ncf> if you think of Any as (∃ a. a) then it is isomorphic to (); in other words you can't do anything safe with an Any without making assumptions that are not tracked by the types
2024-11-06 17:17:16 +0100 <kuribas> Inst: no, (a -> b) is type checked, (Any -> Any) is not, except for the number of inputs.
2024-11-06 17:17:29 +0100tomboy64(~tomboy64@user/tomboy64) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:17:35 +0100 <Inst> is it?
2024-11-06 17:17:36 +0100 <kuribas> Inst: yeah, it's like Dynamic -> Dynamic.
2024-11-06 17:17:41 +0100 <Inst> since (Any -> Any) is a member of Any
2024-11-06 17:18:06 +0100 <EvanR> it's not like Dynamic because Dynamic can actually be used safely, in ways that aren't just STLC with 1 base type
2024-11-06 17:18:09 +0100 <Inst> i was just looking for whether or not the argument that only Haskell has true functions has ever been made
2024-11-06 17:18:36 +0100 <Inst> it's weird because I'm the guy lambasting "pure, functional programming" as meaningless, but now I'm going back to "pure, functional programming" is good
2024-11-06 17:18:38 +0100 <kuribas> True functions are total.
2024-11-06 17:18:51 +0100 <EvanR> I object to your theory that "Any -> Any is a member of Any" as if Any (a type) is a set, and it's members are types
2024-11-06 17:19:08 +0100 <EvanR> or that it is a class and it's instances are types
2024-11-06 17:19:22 +0100 <Inst> What is your objection?
2024-11-06 17:19:27 +0100 <EvanR> that that makes no sense
2024-11-06 17:19:31 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:19:51 +0100 <EvanR> we discussed positively 2 ways you can explain what Any means
2024-11-06 17:20:01 +0100 <EvanR> "a set of types" is not one of them
2024-11-06 17:20:04 +0100TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:20:19 +0100DigitteknohippieDigit
2024-11-06 17:20:40 +0100 <EvanR> it's also not a supertype since we don't have subtypes
2024-11-06 17:20:59 +0100 <EvanR> "purely function programming" is not meaningless
2024-11-06 17:21:28 +0100 <EvanR> though not everyone knows what this is supposed to mean, some people hear it and think they're talking about proportion of paradigms the language is based on
2024-11-06 17:21:35 +0100 <Inst> it refers to functional programming, referential transparency, and the equal result of call-by-name, call-by-value, and call-by-need function calls
2024-11-06 17:21:50 +0100 <Inst> it's a bit gimmicky that purely here is a term of art, not the colloquial term
2024-11-06 17:21:54 +0100 <EvanR> like haskell is purely functional because it's 100% functional, while closure is 40% functional, or something, and so not pure lol
2024-11-06 17:22:03 +0100 <EvanR> because they never heard of the term "pure function" before
2024-11-06 17:22:14 +0100 <Inst> iirc there are no more "mainstream" languages than Haskell that employ purity
2024-11-06 17:22:30 +0100 <EvanR> all functions in haskell are pure so there's that
2024-11-06 17:22:32 +0100 <Inst> I heard that D has a concept of pure function, but it's opt in instead of opt-out, maybe I'm wrong here?
2024-11-06 17:22:41 +0100 <EvanR> it does not
2024-11-06 17:22:48 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 17:22:54 +0100 <EvanR> D is a miserable pile of hacks and missed opportunities
2024-11-06 17:23:09 +0100 <EvanR> refusing to look outside its C++ origins
2024-11-06 17:23:15 +0100 <EvanR> C++ of the 90s
2024-11-06 17:23:52 +0100 <EvanR> "concept of a pure function" was well known in lisp since forever
2024-11-06 17:24:42 +0100 <Inst> but iirc... oh wait, lisp macros, but generally languages don't have special support for pure functions
2024-11-06 17:25:31 +0100 <Inst> and yeah, D has a pure declaration for a function
2024-11-06 17:25:33 +0100 <Inst> https://tour.dlang.org/tour/en/gems/functional-programming#:~:text=Pure%20functions,functions%20wh…
2024-11-06 17:26:13 +0100 <EvanR> I wager $10 that it's for documentation purposes and doesn't actually stop side effects
2024-11-06 17:26:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:26:28 +0100 <Inst> if i win, will you donate to maerwald?
2024-11-06 17:27:01 +0100 <EvanR> I don't know what that refers to, but anyway, you're not supporting "pure functional programming is meaningless"
2024-11-06 17:27:13 +0100 <EvanR> just that it's unpopular
2024-11-06 17:27:15 +0100 <EvanR> which is true
2024-11-06 17:27:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2024-11-06 17:28:06 +0100 <Inst> onlineapp.d(20): Error: `pure` function `onlineapp.bigPow` cannot call impure function `std.stdio.writefln!(char, BigInt).writefln`
2024-11-06 17:28:20 +0100 <Inst> you didn't agree to the bet, so i can't try to cajole you into passing maerwald some money for GHC upkeep
2024-11-06 17:28:42 +0100 <Inst> erm, GHCup upkeep
2024-11-06 17:29:08 +0100 <Inst> i mean that purely functional programming, as an advertising phrase, at least, is misleading
2024-11-06 17:30:14 +0100 <EvanR> you're misleading
2024-11-06 17:30:19 +0100 <EvanR> or confused
2024-11-06 17:30:27 +0100 <Inst> probably, and now is not a good time
2024-11-06 17:30:35 +0100 <Inst> given certain events
2024-11-06 17:30:58 +0100tomboy64(~tomboy64@user/tomboy64) tomboy64
2024-11-06 17:33:27 +0100TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) TonyStone
2024-11-06 17:38:46 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-11-06 17:44:48 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 17:44:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 17:47:08 +0100son0p(~ff@186.119.84.155) son0p
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2024-11-06 17:48:16 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-11-06 17:51:57 +0100sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f45f600c5ad94218b2aa1c2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-11-06 18:00:51 +0100pabs3(~pabs3@user/pabs3) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 18:09:17 +0100jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) (Quit: ciao)
2024-11-06 18:09:57 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-11-06 18:10:46 +0100jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) jrm
2024-11-06 18:13:52 +0100pabs3(~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3
2024-11-06 18:19:18 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2024-11-06 18:27:32 +0100ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
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2024-11-06 18:29:48 +0100ljdarj1ljdarj
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2024-11-06 18:35:16 +0100briandaed(~root@185.234.210.211.r.toneticgroup.pl)
2024-11-06 18:57:28 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-11-06 19:01:58 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2024-11-06 19:07:32 +0100 <statusbot6> Status update: there is a network outage affecting hackage, we are investigating -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/672bb063281978053cb3d85e
2024-11-06 19:17:54 +0100jco(~jco@78-70-217-44-no600.tbcn.telia.com) jco
2024-11-06 19:19:59 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2024-11-06 19:22:36 +0100 <jco> Hey, what's up with https://hackage.haskell.org? Get 503s and it feels like that site has been having problems for a while. https://status.haskell.org seems to indicate there's an ongoing incident. Does anyone here know more about this?
2024-11-06 19:23:13 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 19:23:44 +0100 <geekosaur> from what I've seen, it seems like a lot of AI crawlers have been hammering hackage and hoogle
2024-11-06 19:23:53 +0100 <geekosaur> and ignoring things like robots.txt
2024-11-06 19:24:42 +0100 <institor> that would explain the intermittent behavior
2024-11-06 19:24:51 +0100 <institor> maybe the app server is overloaded
2024-11-06 19:26:27 +0100 <jco> I see, thanks...
2024-11-06 19:27:07 +0100 <briandaed> like geekosaur said, it's probably an effect of 'bot fighting' functionality from cloudflare, sclv and chreekat can shed some light..
2024-11-06 19:28:19 +0100 <geekosaur> that was only activated yesterday, it remains to be seen how much it's contributing because the bot spam had been going on for weeks (it's largely why hoogle was down a lot, apparently)
2024-11-06 19:29:15 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 19:30:15 +0100pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) __
2024-11-06 19:30:49 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d46e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-11-06 19:31:22 +0100 <briandaed> I spend some time testing why hoogle is so slow, build it from sources and made requests same as sclv has shown us, it was spending 58% of the time calculatin inRanges https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/blob/master/src/General/Util.hs#L359
2024-11-06 19:31:32 +0100 <geekosaur> and apparently a lot of other internet services are being affected as well
2024-11-06 19:32:27 +0100 <sm> I set up https://haskell-status.joyful.com today, which updates quicker
2024-11-06 19:33:13 +0100 <sm> briandaed nice
2024-11-06 19:33:19 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d46e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) krei-se
2024-11-06 19:33:35 +0100 <sm> any such optimising is valuable
2024-11-06 19:34:23 +0100 <briandaed> had no time to dig deeper, tested on virtualized fedora with four cores and 6gigs of ram
2024-11-06 19:38:18 +0100jco(~jco@78-70-217-44-no600.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 19:39:22 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
2024-11-06 19:39:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Did stackage also go down just now?
2024-11-06 19:39:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Not according to the website, huh
2024-11-06 19:40:12 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d46e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-11-06 19:40:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> no
2024-11-06 19:40:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> unless it was very quick :) but seems unlikely
2024-11-06 19:41:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Yeah, it's up, just some links don't load
2024-11-06 19:41:49 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> got an example Morj ?
2024-11-06 19:41:50 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p5085d46e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) krei-se
2024-11-06 19:42:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Ah I'm stupid, I was clicking a link in the docs that lead to back to hackage :D
2024-11-06 19:42:43 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2024-11-06 19:43:08 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> How's https://flora.pm doing I wonder
2024-11-06 19:43:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> seems good
2024-11-06 19:46:16 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> A useful fallback for browsing package info, though I think we can't install packages from there
2024-11-06 19:48:00 +0100 <geekosaur> ti also redirects you to hackage to see docs
2024-11-06 19:49:41 +0100 <institor> uh, stackage.org?
2024-11-06 19:50:36 +0100 <institor> their package documentation seems to be operational
2024-11-06 19:51:43 +0100jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) (Quit: ciao)
2024-11-06 19:52:11 +0100Nachtgespenst(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-11-06 19:52:20 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> A hackage outage is a good test of haskell infrastructure resilience
2024-11-06 19:52:37 +0100 <institor> where is this bridged to
2024-11-06 19:52:39 +0100 <institor> matrix?
2024-11-06 19:52:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> yes, the Haskell IRC room on matrix
2024-11-06 19:53:03 +0100 <geekosaur> #haskell-irc:matrix.org, yes
2024-11-06 19:53:10 +0100jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) jrm
2024-11-06 19:53:16 +0100 <geekosaur> (I was asked not to bridge the main Matrix Haskell room)
2024-11-06 19:53:18 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2024-11-06 19:53:31 +0100haskellbridgesm tested stack installs, they seem to work fine for things in snapshots
2024-11-06 19:53:44 +0100 <institor> i was building some docker images earlier using stack
2024-11-06 19:53:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> > where is this bridged to
2024-11-06 19:53:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> Uh-oh, I've been found
2024-11-06 19:53:53 +0100 <institor> i think stack setup was failing, but probably when fetching GHC and not packages
2024-11-06 19:54:17 +0100 <institor> just times out
2024-11-06 19:54:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Stack builds work fine for me right now
2024-11-06 19:54:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> +with downloading
2024-11-06 19:54:39 +0100 <geekosaur> is it retrieving a new ghc?
2024-11-06 19:54:45 +0100 <institor> geekosaur: i think so
2024-11-06 19:54:52 +0100 <institor> i busted the cache
2024-11-06 19:54:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Ah, no, system-ghc
2024-11-06 19:54:59 +0100 <geekosaur> if you already have the snapshot, it shouldn't be downloading anything
2024-11-06 19:55:05 +0100 <geekosaur> except any extra-deps
2024-11-06 19:55:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> institor I just tried this and it seems to be downloading: stack setup --verbosity debug --install-ghc --snapshot nightly
2024-11-06 19:56:05 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> (I'm dreaming of a stack variant that somehow only uses system-ghc. Basically cabal with snapshots and a saner interface)
2024-11-06 19:56:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> "stack update" seemed to fail fast without causing a problem, just now, but that might be just luck of how hackage responded
2024-11-06 19:56:28 +0100 <sclv> there are mirrors so that cabal can pull packages
2024-11-06 19:56:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Morj, you can configure it that way, righ ?
2024-11-06 19:56:54 +0100 <institor> bare `stack setup` is failing for me
2024-11-06 19:57:09 +0100 <institor> malformed JSON with a '<', i suspect nginx is throwing up some error HTML where a JSON response was expected from the app server
2024-11-06 19:57:35 +0100 <institor> keep in mind i'm running from a clean docker base image
2024-11-06 19:57:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> institor: that's what I saw from stack update, which is about what you'd expect. But did that cause setup to fail ?
2024-11-06 19:58:09 +0100 <institor> yes sm, `stack setup` is throwing that malformed JSON error
2024-11-06 19:58:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> sm I can configure it, but it's silly: when I use a snapshot with a mismatching ghc version, it will try to download it instead of giving an error. And when creating a new project I have to guess which snapshot will work with my system ghc
2024-11-06 19:58:34 +0100 <institor> i am not using nightly
2024-11-06 19:58:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Morj: ~/.stack/config.yaml: install-ghc: false, system-ghc: true
2024-11-06 19:59:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Oh cool
2024-11-06 19:59:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> all in the manual, don't tell anyone :)
2024-11-06 19:59:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Now the second part can be solved if I write my own stack-init..
2024-11-06 19:59:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> that is the recommended config these days when using stack with ghcup
2024-11-06 20:00:30 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Well cabal also has everything in the manual allegedly, but last time it took me a couple of weeks of full-time work to figure out how to set up a mirror
2024-11-06 20:00:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Anyway, thanks for advice (=
2024-11-06 20:01:50 +0100 <lxsameer> hey folks, is there any way to get the version number of the project that is set in the cabal file in the haskell code?
2024-11-06 20:01:57 +0100ft(~ft@p4fc2a216.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2024-11-06 20:04:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Without reading the source files themselves (at build or run time) - no
2024-11-06 20:04:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Morj: I hear that. stack's manual is a bit better
2024-11-06 20:04:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> setting up a mirror sounds fairly advanced
2024-11-06 20:04:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> It is a lot better IMO. Still not ideal sadly. Also I liked the old design more ;]
2024-11-06 20:06:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Yes, there are ways to get the package version, which I forget
2024-11-06 20:07:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/package-version I guess
2024-11-06 20:08:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> > We provide functionality for reading these numbers from cabal files at both runtime and compile-time :3
2024-11-06 20:09:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> At $job we had a script that when doing releases would read version info from several pacakges and prepare it as a haskell module before build
2024-11-06 20:11:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> related, https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/githash is good for git info
2024-11-06 20:14:38 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 20:16:18 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden) sudden
2024-11-06 20:17:36 +0100 <Inst> just my comment about "purely functional" programming being useful, to eschew the argument, is just that Julia doesn't have function types
2024-11-06 20:17:52 +0100 <Inst> Rust, apparently, only has in-program function types via function pointers, not the functions themselves
2024-11-06 20:19:33 +0100 <Inst> and to some extent i'm coming to a realization that FP doesn't make sense without pure-by-default
2024-11-06 20:19:58 +0100 <EvanR> pure or pure-by-default really does solve a lot of things
2024-11-06 20:20:12 +0100 <EvanR> and creates new ones
2024-11-06 20:20:23 +0100 <Inst> what new problems?
2024-11-06 20:20:43 +0100 <EvanR> that being said purity wasn't an end inof itself
2024-11-06 20:20:51 +0100 <EvanR> it was basically necessary because of lazyiness
2024-11-06 20:21:58 +0100 <Inst> nonstrict, technically
2024-11-06 20:22:06 +0100 <Inst> not sure whether non-strict can actually include lenient evaluation!
2024-11-06 20:22:18 +0100 <EvanR> problems like the awkward squad: I/O, error handling, concurrency, and FFI
2024-11-06 20:22:47 +0100 <Inst> but aren't those mostly solved in modern Haskell?
2024-11-06 20:23:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Error handling - not really. Exceptions in pure code are a pain if you really want to handle them
2024-11-06 20:23:17 +0100 <Inst> IO type is nice enough, although you can imagine better alternatives (effects imo should be handled within the language as a feature, not as a product of lambda calculus)
2024-11-06 20:24:00 +0100 <EvanR> haskell solved it several ways historically, but that doesn't mean "it's solved" in general, unless haskell is the only pure functional language ever
2024-11-06 20:24:02 +0100 <Inst> 0 `div` 0
2024-11-06 20:24:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> It would be ideal if there was a consensus to use errors in pure code like panics in rust, but
2024-11-06 20:24:14 +0100 <Inst> iirc clean with uniqueness types
2024-11-06 20:24:39 +0100 <EvanR> that is basically the consensus, no one should be catching pure errors
2024-11-06 20:25:13 +0100 <EvanR> ideally you don't have any for whatever provably reason
2024-11-06 20:25:14 +0100 <Inst> but the absence of effects besides memory and computation, etc, is just really liberating, as well as a "by default" implementation
2024-11-06 20:25:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Ughh I had a counterexample for consensus but now I think you're right
2024-11-06 20:25:39 +0100 <statusbot6> Status update: The hackage outage has been traced to a misconfigured zfs snapshot configuration resulting in full disk. This is fixed and hackage is operational again. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/672bb063281978053cb3d85e
2024-11-06 20:25:39 +0100 <EvanR> provable
2024-11-06 20:26:03 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@95.91.137.87) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-11-06 20:26:54 +0100 <sclv> do _not_ turn on automated zfs snapshots for /var/log everyone!
2024-11-06 20:27:04 +0100 <geekosaur> lol
2024-11-06 20:27:07 +0100 <EvanR> a counter example is you spawned an async thread which may succeed or may crash in whatever unknown way, but you don't want the supervisor thread to crash because of it
2024-11-06 20:27:31 +0100 <EvanR> but you can file this pattern away under "process pattern"
2024-11-06 20:27:46 +0100 <EvanR> each thread being a microcosm of programming principle
2024-11-06 20:29:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Exceptions with forkIO are already not rethrown though?
2024-11-06 20:30:24 +0100 <Inst> how would you spawn the async thread in pure code?
2024-11-06 20:30:42 +0100 <geekosaur> I think they are, mostly?
2024-11-06 20:30:49 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2024-11-06 20:30:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Or maybe I misunderstood you. I also have on my mind a problem that Control.Concurrent.Async.waitCatch, and you get a Right x, x can still contain a bottom
2024-11-06 20:32:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Rust for example specifically has poisoned state to combat panics during inter-thread communication. But with lazyness, exceptions (and poison) can come out any time