2024/11/06

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2024-11-06 00:58:37 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2024-11-06 01:22:51 +0100 <jackdk> Standards pricing is just obscene, TBQH. There has to be a way to compensate experts for their work without certain companies getting to overcharge for ancient documents forever.
2024-11-06 01:23:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 01:34:09 +0100 <constxd> mauke: my understanding is wg14 intentionally makes drafts public that are as close as possible to the final revision to circumvent the ISO pricing absurdity
2024-11-06 01:34:38 +0100 <constxd> i was reading somewhere that they are like grandfathered in, most ISO standards have tighter restrictions on what can be released as a draft
2024-11-06 01:34:51 +0100 <constxd> but basically there is no reason to buy the C standard
2024-11-06 01:39:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-11-06 01:48:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> is there a way to save the current ghci session?
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2024-11-06 01:55:16 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 01:58:32 +0100 <monochrom> I am not even convinced that the authors of the standards are compensated at all.
2024-11-06 01:59:21 +0100 <monochrom> Right? I'm taking inspiration from the way academic journals work. The journal publishers get all the money. The editors and the peer reviewers do it all for free.
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2024-11-06 02:01:40 +0100 <monochrom> To the point even Knuth is sufficiently fed up to write an article to complain and advocate everyone to jump ship and start free online journals.
2024-11-06 02:03:28 +0100 <monochrom> zwro: There is no plan to follow Python absurdity and evolve GHCi into its own IDE.
2024-11-06 02:03:31 +0100 <constxd> yes i think the actual members of the ISO working groups are essentially volunteers
2024-11-06 02:04:14 +0100 <constxd> what do u mean python absurdity? ipython?
2024-11-06 02:05:35 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-11-06 02:07:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> monochrom: (: https://nbviewer.org/github/gibiansky/IHaskell/blob/master/notebooks/IHaskell.ipynb
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2024-11-06 02:10:16 +0100 <zero> anyways i just want something like node's repl where it basically saves the session history to a file. i guess i can go edit .ghci_history manually...
2024-11-06 02:10:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:11:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> zero: there has been a blog post or two about a way to save/restore ghci state, by chris done I think
2024-11-06 02:12:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> https://chrisdone.com/posts/ghci-reload maybe
2024-11-06 02:12:57 +0100 <monochrom> constxd: This: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/multiline-interpreter-with-editing-of-previous-lines/10551
2024-11-06 02:13:29 +0100 <monochrom> tl;dr the python REPL is now its own editor.
2024-11-06 02:14:29 +0100 <monochrom> This is different from iPython and iHaskell. I have no quarrel with them.
2024-11-06 02:14:37 +0100 <constxd> ah
2024-11-06 02:15:26 +0100 <monochrom> Instead, since iPython and iHaskell exist, there is no point duplicating the effort in the basic REPL.
2024-11-06 02:15:41 +0100 <zero> ooh is this hot reloading?
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2024-11-06 02:16:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> try it out, let us know ?
2024-11-06 02:16:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> +how it goes
2024-11-06 02:18:15 +0100 <constxd> wouldn't be the end of the world imo if it's "for free" by virtue of being built into libreadline or something
2024-11-06 02:18:35 +0100 <constxd> but yeah i wouldn't want to implement that and maintain it as a part of a REPL
2024-11-06 02:18:36 +0100 <monochrom> In the particular case of GHCi, given that dev time is a zero-sum game, when (not if, it's a certainty) the devs have to choose between improving GHCi's debugger and adding an editor to GHCi, why would anyone want the latter? Isn't debugger a much higher priority? Editors already exist, plentiifully.
2024-11-06 02:19:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> dev time doesn't always have to be zero sum in FOSS.. motivated new devs / funders sometimes show up
2024-11-06 02:19:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> just saying
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2024-11-06 02:22:07 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 02:23:51 +0100 <zero> foreign-store is hacky. i would be more interested in something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rapid-0.1.4/docs/Rapid.html
2024-11-06 02:24:50 +0100 <zero> which wraps it "nicely"
2024-11-06 02:24:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I could imagine integrating an already-maintained TUI editor (yi ?) could also be the way to improve GHCI's debugger, because a more visual UI is what it needs
2024-11-06 02:25:15 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> or anyway, _a_ way
2024-11-06 02:25:50 +0100postcerebral(~postcereb@user/postcerebral) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2)
2024-11-06 02:25:51 +0100 <monochrom> In practice, that doesn't happen often enough in the Haskell community. Look at how GHCi debugger has not received any further work, and how HLS still doesn't have any debugger. Even the GHCup effort is wearing thin and the guy is complaining: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/priorities-for-upcoming-ghc-releases/9605/60
2024-11-06 02:26:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:26:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> and sometimes a monolithic just works out of box tool is the only thing that'll get used
2024-11-06 02:26:29 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:26:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I promise you this one would
2024-11-06 02:26:47 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2024-11-06 02:28:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I have got the VS Code debugger extension working once, and it was so fragile and little known that pretty much no-one else will
2024-11-06 02:29:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> a built in cheaper just works ui could help build the foundation
2024-11-06 02:30:36 +0100 <monochrom> https://ro-che.info/ccc/26
2024-11-06 02:32:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I think in this cartoon, something is missing from the company's offering. We just don't know what it is :)
2024-11-06 02:33:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:33:11 +0100 <monochrom> IIRC the company is precisely FPComplete.
2024-11-06 02:34:23 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Ok. That IDE was good as I recall ! Lots of people had a beef with FP Complete so it had an uphill path.
2024-11-06 02:34:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Not a debugger thought
2024-11-06 02:34:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> * UI though, that's what I'm thinking of particularly
2024-11-06 02:35:30 +0100 <monochrom> Debugger is extremely hard. I don't really complain about lacking it.
2024-11-06 02:36:00 +0100 <monochrom> OTOH, a nice IDE that lacks debugging feels like lacking a soul.
2024-11-06 02:36:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> It doesn't seem _that_ hard. GHCI already has the core of it, and https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=phoityne.phoityne-vscode is an example of a UI on top
2024-11-06 02:38:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> someone could whip that up in brick
2024-11-06 02:39:41 +0100 <monochrom> Oh it's an extreme case of the 80-20 rule. Or at this extreme it's like a 99.99-0.01 rule. Hat, Buddha, GHCi, and that plug in prove that prototyping a Haskell debugger is easy, sure, and at the same time by their incompleteness and even bitrot, also prove that actually covering all of Haskell is way too annoying for anyone to finish it.
2024-11-06 02:39:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> wait, didn't I see that already...
2024-11-06 02:41:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> monochrom: I think those things prove that packaging and integration are also necessary.. so all of those are dead.. except the debugger built in to GHCI, which works perfectly (or anyway, works)
2024-11-06 02:41:26 +0100 <monochrom> The cartoon? Yes I always link to it to rub it into people's faces.
2024-11-06 02:41:54 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I did see a more recent brick based debugger ui. I'd find it, if hackage wasn't down just now
2024-11-06 02:42:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> what can an IDE provide that a language server can't?
2024-11-06 02:42:31 +0100 <monochrom> A face? :)
2024-11-06 02:42:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> I don't think people like changing editors just for the language
2024-11-06 02:43:04 +0100 <monochrom> I talked about lacking a soul, but when you do have a soul, it needs a body too...
2024-11-06 02:43:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> a language server is a small internal component that lets IDEs communicate with the language tools
2024-11-06 02:44:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 02:44:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> sm: the "plus a capable editor" was implied in my question
2024-11-06 02:44:57 +0100 <monochrom> Right exactly. I wouldn't change editors just for the language. So I wouldn't need a "save" button in the language's REPL either. My favourite editor already has one.
2024-11-06 02:46:10 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> how do you save a ghci session with your editor?
2024-11-06 02:47:16 +0100 <monochrom> By creating a "play.hs" file that has all the experimental expressions I want to try out in a session.
2024-11-06 02:47:49 +0100Guest7(~Guest7@syn-172-249-181-078.res.spectrum.com)
2024-11-06 02:48:09 +0100 <monochrom> Not currently done but available: I'm in emacs and my ghci session is also in emacs so in principle I would save that buffer content...
2024-11-06 02:48:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> There's quite a few https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=debug things, though most of them are not traditional debuggers allowing interactive stepping. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-debug-brick is the recent one I was thinking of.
2024-11-06 02:48:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:48:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> at that point you might aswell use ghcid
2024-11-06 02:49:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> zwro: yes rapid is a good find, that's the newer thing built on top of foreign store
2024-11-06 02:49:17 +0100 <Leary> zwro: Yes, so use ghcid. :)
2024-11-06 02:49:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> * foreign-store
2024-11-06 02:49:29 +0100tabaqui(~root@91.73.194.130) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:50:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> Leary: i usually do :) that's why i missed a :save command when i happened to use ghci for something quick on my phone
2024-11-06 02:50:55 +0100 <monochrom> Oh, phone. Then I sympathize.
2024-11-06 02:51:08 +0100 <monochrom> But you should use emacs on your phone instead. >:)
2024-11-06 02:51:18 +0100 <monochrom> "go big or go home"
2024-11-06 02:51:25 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> i'm using vim on my phone >>)
2024-11-06 02:51:30 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:51:43 +0100 <monochrom> I imagine vim should have something similar?
2024-11-06 02:52:15 +0100 <monochrom> I mean why would there be a war (or why it hasn't ended already) if they were not on par.
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2024-11-06 02:52:41 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> similar to what?
2024-11-06 02:53:11 +0100 <monochrom> some haskell plugin for vim so you can also have a ghci session in a vim window/buffer.
2024-11-06 02:53:30 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 02:53:39 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-06 02:53:50 +0100 <monochrom> If that doesn't exist, come join us in emacs! >:)
2024-11-06 02:53:58 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> oh you don't need a plugin. you can just run ghcid directly in a vim buffer :)
2024-11-06 02:54:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I really don't like this "The type synonym ‘YulP’ should have 2 arguments, but has been given 1"
2024-11-06 02:54:02 +0100 <haskellbridge> Is there a good general workaround?
2024-11-06 02:54:08 +0100 <monochrom> OK that. :)
2024-11-06 02:54:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> but ghcid is what's missing on my phone
2024-11-06 02:54:48 +0100 <monochrom> General? How general can you take it? The most general, IMO anyway, is to use newtype altogether.
2024-11-06 02:55:20 +0100 <constxd> u know how the zsh and bash shells have a key binding called C-x C-e ?
2024-11-06 02:55:44 +0100 <constxd> that is trivial enough to add into something like GHCi and it gives u perhaps something useful
2024-11-06 02:55:53 +0100 <constxd> just an idea
2024-11-06 02:56:53 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 02:57:05 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> yes!
2024-11-06 02:57:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> that would be neat
2024-11-06 02:57:15 +0100Versality(~Versality@user/Versality) Versality
2024-11-06 02:57:50 +0100 <monochrom> TIL bash C-x C-e edit-and-execute-command.
2024-11-06 02:58:17 +0100 <monochrom> Thanks constxd. I had always opened up emacs and draft my command when I needed that.
2024-11-06 02:58:20 +0100 <probie> hellwolf: Perhaps https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/liberal_type_synonyms.html can do what you want, but it is still rather restricted
2024-11-06 02:58:22 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:58:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> just like pressing v inside less opens your $EDITOR
2024-11-06 02:58:41 +0100flounders(~flounders@2607:fb91:f6f:855:576:16c:1a7a:3eb2) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:59:20 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 02:59:35 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:00:28 +0100flounders(~flounders@173.246.200.74) flounders
2024-11-06 03:00:39 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah edit-and-execute would be great, both easy and valuable.
2024-11-06 03:02:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> also if you have vi-style bindings in your shell with `set -o vi`, pressing v while in normal mode also achieves this
2024-11-06 03:02:10 +0100monochromcan now use C-x C-e to take time to craft docker commands that have 20 options...
2024-11-06 03:03:20 +0100 <monochrom> I can also tell my students about this. It will help in the unix course.
2024-11-06 03:04:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:05:07 +0100spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) (Quit: spew)
2024-11-06 03:06:47 +0100 <monochrom> Is it actually provided by the underlying readline? Because once upon a time, GHCi used readline as opposed to today's haskeline...
2024-11-06 03:07:37 +0100 <monochrom> Would be funny if GHCi missed that opportunity...
2024-11-06 03:08:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> ghci used readline? how i miss vim bindings in ghci
2024-11-06 03:10:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> oh wait, does haskeline support it?
2024-11-06 03:10:24 +0100 <monochrom> I think no. I just tried.
2024-11-06 03:10:46 +0100 <Leary> zwro: echo 'editMode: Vi' > ~/.haskeline
2024-11-06 03:11:10 +0100 <monochrom> Oh just vim bindings. Then yeah.
2024-11-06 03:12:15 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:13:11 +0100notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) notzmv
2024-11-06 03:14:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <zwro> Leary: tyvm
2024-11-06 03:14:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:17:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Ah! finally. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghcitui is the one I was thinking of.
2024-11-06 03:17:56 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> needs more users
2024-11-06 03:19:03 +0100 <geekosaur> ghci originally used readline, but that caused build issues on Windows (not there) and Macs (Apple ships a fake "readline") so someone wrote haskeline
2024-11-06 03:19:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:26:31 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm I should try that.
2024-11-06 03:28:52 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm it wants containers >= 0.6.8? That's neeewwww....
2024-11-06 03:30:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:34:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:40:32 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) CoolMa7
2024-11-06 03:41:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> stack notes added at https://github.com/CrystalSplitter/ghcitui/issues/30
2024-11-06 03:44:57 +0100CoolMa7(~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-11-06 03:50:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 03:55:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:02:02 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 04:08:47 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:10:23 +0100comonad(~comonad@p200300d0272bda000e01a379c24cc428.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:19:18 +0100tyzef(~tyzef@user/tyzef) tyzef
2024-11-06 04:19:19 +0100tyzef(~tyzef@user/tyzef) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2024-11-06 04:20:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 04:24:32 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:28:47 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:fdaa:b613:f8c7:f917)
2024-11-06 04:28:47 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-11-06 04:30:02 +0100abenson(~user@109.255.240.83) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 04:30:11 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:fdaa:b613:f8c7:f917) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 04:30:29 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:a9c3:b9df:2274:a98b)
2024-11-06 04:31:53 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:a9c3:b9df:2274:a98b) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-11-06 04:32:12 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:ffbd:ecef:4bf1:f51f)
2024-11-06 04:32:54 +0100GoldsteinQ(~goldstein@goldstein.rs) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:33:54 +0100alp_(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:f3e5:33f2:cda6:f534)
2024-11-06 04:34:30 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro) gentauro
2024-11-06 04:35:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-11-06 04:35:37 +0100alp__(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:9d69:6c3d:dedb:c846)
2024-11-06 04:35:38 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> e
2024-11-06 04:37:48 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:ffbd:ecef:4bf1:f51f) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-11-06 04:39:04 +0100alp_(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:f3e5:33f2:cda6:f534) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)