2021/09/21

2021-09-21 00:00:40 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-09-21 00:04:27 +0200gioyik(~gioyik@gateway/tor-sasl/gioyik) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-09-21 00:04:49 +0200 <Sqaure> Say i have a tree-type where each node has a 'parentOpt :: Maybe (Node a)' function defined for it. The traversal from some node to root becomes a list of sorts. Is there some handy type/function that lets me expand that list? Sure, i could write the code for it, but it feels like im dealing with an iterator of sorts here?
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2021-09-21 00:09:55 +0200 <awpr> if you've written a Traversal for it, then `toListOf` will do it. but having a tree with a parent pointer is a bit weird in Haskell, since then either it can't have child pointers, or adding to the tree requires recreating the entire tree
2021-09-21 00:11:15 +0200Guest5342(~Guest53@103.121.152.207)
2021-09-21 00:12:17 +0200 <Guest5342> Hello Everyone, I wanted to know if there's a way to implement a triply linked list in haskell
2021-09-21 00:12:54 +0200 <Guest5342> It'll be really great if any of you can help me with this
2021-09-21 00:12:59 +0200cuz(~user@38.140.58.234) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-09-21 00:13:12 +0200 <awpr> lol awesome, I get to re-send the message I just sent immediately before you joined :)
2021-09-21 00:13:34 +0200 <awpr> "having a tree with a parent pointer is a bit weird in Haskell, since then either it can't have child pointers, or adding to the tree requires recreating the entire tree" same applies for doubly- or triply-linked lists
2021-09-21 00:14:16 +0200 <awpr> you could make a mutable one in ST or something, but it'd be a bit more cumbersome to use
2021-09-21 00:14:38 +0200 <Guest5342> you mean like a finger tree?
2021-09-21 00:14:40 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-09-21 00:15:34 +0200 <awpr> what I mean is that data structures with pointer cycles don't mesh very well with immutability, because every node transitively points to the entire structure
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2021-09-21 00:16:18 +0200 <Guest5342> makes sense but How can i go about creating one anyways?
2021-09-21 00:16:41 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:6daa:6a79:97ab:557)
2021-09-21 00:16:46 +0200Guest4483(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-09-21 00:17:06 +0200 <awpr> if you want an immutable one despite the fact it can't be used efficiently at all, then "tying the knot" is the term for the trick you'd use
2021-09-21 00:17:53 +0200 <awpr> if you want one that can be used efficiently despite it being a bit cumbersome, then you could build one with STRefs for head, prev, and next
2021-09-21 00:18:37 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2021-09-21 00:19:00 +0200 <Guest5342> Ok. Thanks for you help
2021-09-21 00:19:16 +0200 <awpr> or I guess there's a third option: if you want a container type you'd use in similar situations to where you'd use doubly-linked lists in imperative languages, then check out Data.Sequence
2021-09-21 00:19:32 +0200 <Sqaure> awpr, yeah i know. Im actually asking for a "friend" language. Haskell usually has the answer. =D
2021-09-21 00:20:00 +0200pera(~pera@user/pera) (Quit: leaving)
2021-09-21 00:20:00 +0200 <Sqaure> (about parent reference)
2021-09-21 00:20:00 +0200 <awpr> (which is based on finger trees and has sub-linear prepend and append)
2021-09-21 00:21:26 +0200Guest4483(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-09-21 00:21:44 +0200 <Guest5342> ok. I'll have have a look at that too.
2021-09-21 00:21:53 +0200 <Guest5342> Thanks for your time
2021-09-21 00:22:42 +0200Brumaire(~quassel@81-64-14-121.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2021-09-21 00:31:22 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-09-21 00:31:23 +0200 <awpr> Sqaure: there's also `unfoldr (fmap (\x -> (x, getParent x))) . Just`
2021-09-21 00:33:06 +0200 <Sqaure> awpr, ah. Great, i actually found that one in the java-fp library im using here. Good to know its the same in Haskell.
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2021-09-21 00:59:30 +0200 <Cajun> java functional programming sounds scary.. i can only imagine how many angle brackets you would need
2021-09-21 01:00:27 +0200 <meejah> probably same order as brackets in lisp ;)
2021-09-21 01:06:42 +0200 <hpc> the creator of java generics is one of the creators of haskell
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2021-09-21 01:13:02 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
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2021-09-21 01:32:11 +0200alzgh(~alzgh@user/alzgh) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-09-21 01:32:58 +0200 <monochrom> Angle brackets would be parametric polymorphic programming, which is orthogonal to functional programming.
2021-09-21 01:33:43 +0200 <monochrom> To wit, you could already do that in Ada and C++.
2021-09-21 01:34:52 +0200tremon(~tremon@217-63-61-89.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2021-09-21 01:35:24 +0200 <monochrom> Functional programming in Java would be full of lambdas and/or anonymous classes instead.
2021-09-21 01:37:46 +0200 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Anonymous subclassing is a kind of defunctionalization. >:)
2021-09-21 01:38:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-09-21 01:42:19 +0200 <Cajun> i had a good time using a basic GUI library in java, it was fairly simple to just make Runnables with the sugar java 13 (?) gives for it. i havent tried to GUI program in haskell (but it seems rather complicated, but i havent read the docs! :P )
2021-09-21 01:43:44 +0200 <Cajun> it just never felt ergonomic to use generics in java, as much as i love the language. it was really heavy to use them, lots and lots of ugly angle brackets. but it worked well and i didnt touch it much, so i dont have much room to complain *shrug*
2021-09-21 01:47:20 +0200 <Cajun> then haskell felt like magic with polymorphism, it was so amazing to basically have it extremely ergonomic to just type `a` (and faster than typing the monomorphic type!)
2021-09-21 01:47:57 +0200cuz(~user@2601:182:cc02:8b0:88fe:7ac8:b1af:1fac)
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2021-09-21 01:49:04 +0200 <Cajun> javas done a lot to become more multi-paradigm, but it doesnt seem as eager as C# is in that respect
2021-09-21 01:49:39 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:6daa:6a79:97ab:557)
2021-09-21 01:50:03 +0200 <shapr> C# also got a bunch of stuff from Haskell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Meijer_(computer_scientist)
2021-09-21 01:50:12 +0200 <shapr> linq, etc
2021-09-21 01:52:26 +0200 <Cajun> ive heard good things about LINQ. but i dont really like the flexibility of case insensitivity the language has (functions should start lowercase...)
2021-09-21 01:55:58 +0200 <sclv> really elegant gui programming just requires a level of engineering polish and support that's not out there enough in the haskell ecosystem (not to mention solving all the linker woes, etc, which java sidesteps by shipping a full gui lib for each platform as part of the core)
2021-09-21 01:56:15 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-09-21 01:56:44 +0200 <sclv> like, conceptually, guis in haskell can be nice. but practically there's only a few choices of libs out there that tick all the boxes of being cross-platform, ergonomic, not insane to install, etc
2021-09-21 01:57:18 +0200 <sclv> and the fact that all the gui libs we bind to tend to be so soaked in the OO paradigm makes for some unfortunate impedance mismatch too
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2021-09-21 02:03:33 +0200 <Cale> There's gi-gtk-hs, which has seemed pretty usable. I've barely been using it though, really, since we've just been drawing most of our UI with cairo :P
2021-09-21 02:03:50 +0200 <sclv> and fltkhs too
2021-09-21 02:04:06 +0200 <sclv> i don't consider the gtk stuff super cross platform based on past experience, but things may be substantially better now
2021-09-21 02:04:40 +0200 <sm> monomer is the latest contender
2021-09-21 02:05:02 +0200 <Cale> Coming at it from another angle, reflex-dom is another option
2021-09-21 02:05:25 +0200 <Cajun> i tried to use monomer a while back and it was a bit broken to say the least
2021-09-21 02:05:48 +0200 <sclv> hrm, hadn't seen it before, might have missed some announcements on it? on the face of it, claims a nice set of features
2021-09-21 02:05:52 +0200 <sm> darn I was just thinking "no-one has panned it yet"
2021-09-21 02:06:05 +0200 <sm> Cajun: do you mean, after you got it installed ?
2021-09-21 02:06:17 +0200 <sclv> 😂
2021-09-21 02:06:23 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-09-21 02:06:37 +0200 <Cale> (We use it to make apps for the Web, iOS and Android mobile devices from the same codebase, which are the three platforms anyone cares about these days.)
2021-09-21 02:06:44 +0200 <Cajun> well that may not entirely be true, it seemed to be tuned for windows (it couldnt find the library on linux) and one of the dev's pushes to a library wasnt fully accepted yet
2021-09-21 02:06:46 +0200 <sm> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/p12pjs/ann_monomer_a_gui_library_for_haskell/, sclv
2021-09-21 02:07:20 +0200 <Cajun> i havent checked on it since, but i really do hope it works well
2021-09-21 02:07:25 +0200 <sm> ah, that's small stuff
2021-09-21 02:07:50 +0200 <Cajun> small stuff that made it a pita to deal with, so i just dropped it and promised myself to try it again at a later date
2021-09-21 02:08:07 +0200 <sm> sure, same here (it doesn't build on m1 yet)
2021-09-21 02:08:18 +0200 <sm> s/small/fixable/
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2021-09-21 02:10:57 +0200alx741(~alx741@186.178.109.159)
2021-09-21 02:11:02 +0200 <sclv> reading through monomer's docs i'm reminded again that the "elm architecture" seems to be just like a rebranded mvc
2021-09-21 02:11:31 +0200 <sclv> which i didn't mind when it was in elm, but now seeing it as a term of the art in other contexts is frying my head a bit
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2021-09-21 02:42:37 +0200 <justsomeguy> I felt the same way when reading about "stateless" "declarative" configuration management platforms.
2021-09-21 02:43:53 +0200cuz(~user@2601:182:cc02:8b0:88fe:7ac8:b1af:1fac) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-09-21 02:45:12 +0200 <Cale> You really need a way to structure the state in large interactive applications a bit better. Having the top level need to "know about" everything in the entire application is really not okay past a certain point.
2021-09-21 02:46:25 +0200 <Cale> I think the right thing is for the accumulation of any given piece of state to happen just above every part of the application that cares about it, and no higher up than that.
2021-09-21 02:47:03 +0200 <Cale> At least, that's a decent rule of thumb.
2021-09-21 02:50:00 +0200 <Cale> "Everything potentially depends on everything else" is still bad, even if you can describe the relationship through time using a pure function.
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2021-09-21 03:06:46 +0200 <sm> +1!
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2021-09-21 03:26:33 +0200neurocyte0133(~neurocyte@212.232.95.106)
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2021-09-21 03:28:54 +0200neurocyte0133neurocyte013
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2021-09-21 03:33:52 +0200 <justsomeguy> I think I've just started keeping a list of maintenance programmer adages, starting with your quote :^)
2021-09-21 03:41:49 +0200brettgilio(~brettgili@x-node.gq) (Quit: Leaving...)
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2021-09-21 05:43:48 +0200Izem(~Izem@bras-base-london1483w-grc-31-74-12-158-179.dsl.bell.ca) (Good Bye)
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2021-09-21 06:48:02 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-09-21 06:49:20 +0200 <Izem> Are the items in parentheses sections? `showsTree (Branch l r) = ('<':) . showsTree l . ('|':) . showsTree r . ('>':)`
2021-09-21 06:50:10 +0200 <awpr> yes, operator sections of `(:)`
2021-09-21 06:50:59 +0200 <awpr> they could also be replaced with `showChar '<'`, for example
2021-09-21 06:51:23 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-09-21 06:52:37 +0200xiongxin(~quassel@119.123.103.94)
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2021-09-21 06:56:03 +0200flouflou(~flouflou@modemcable032.110-177-173.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
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2021-09-21 06:57:05 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@118-167-47-202.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2021-09-21 06:59:16 +0200 <jle`> Izem: if it's easier to see, you can write it as ('<' :) . showsTree l . ('|' :) . showsTree r . ('>' :)
2021-09-21 06:59:49 +0200 <Izem> yeah, good call
2021-09-21 07:00:08 +0200 <Izem> (in this case not much difference because my client does not use monospace characters)
2021-09-21 07:00:19 +0200 <jle`> i'll admit the '<': four symbols in a row did throw me off
2021-09-21 07:00:31 +0200 <jle`> despite writing haskell for a while now
2021-09-21 07:04:48 +0200 <Izem> I'll take a note when I write "Elements of Style" for Haskell ;)
2021-09-21 07:05:44 +0200Izem(~Izem@bras-base-london1483w-grc-31-74-12-158-179.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Izem)
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