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| 2024-09-18 02:48:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920548901000599 Someone actually tried to give C a denotational semantics. Moreover, "a direct implementation of the semantics, using the programming language Haskell". |
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| 2024-09-18 05:34:12 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) |
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| 2024-09-18 05:35:24 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2024-09-18 05:36:45 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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| 2024-09-18 05:55:29 +0200 | <Inst> | <|> is sort of bad, sin't it? |
| 2024-09-18 05:55:34 +0200 | <Inst> | unless it has the right rewrite rules for it |
| 2024-09-18 05:55:43 +0200 | <Inst> | a <|> b <|> c doesn't fail correctly |
| 2024-09-18 05:56:01 +0200 | <Inst> | *succeed correctly |
| 2024-09-18 05:56:08 +0200 | <Inst> | if a short circuits, the second <|> is triggered |
| 2024-09-18 05:57:36 +0200 | wei2912 | (~wei2912@116.88.52.77) |
| 2024-09-18 05:58:52 +0200 | <jle`> | Inst: what instance are you think of ? |
| 2024-09-18 05:59:45 +0200 | wei2912 | (~wei2912@116.88.52.77) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-09-18 05:59:51 +0200 | <Inst> | let me check maybe again |
| 2024-09-18 06:00:32 +0200 | <Inst> | yup, alternative maybe |
| 2024-09-18 06:00:44 +0200 | <Inst> | it'll keep on checking Just values when it can just short-circuit |
| 2024-09-18 06:01:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> undefined |
| 2024-09-18 06:01:57 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:02:03 +0200 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
| 2024-09-18 06:02:44 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-09-18 06:02:56 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:03:15 +0200 | greenflower | (~greenflow@45.112.53.154) |
| 2024-09-18 06:03:43 +0200 | <Inst> | > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 2024-09-18 06:03:45 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:03:51 +0200 | <Inst> | no, the claim is that the second <|> will trigger |
| 2024-09-18 06:04:29 +0200 | <Inst> | what I want is Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined), which can be provided by rewrite rules, tbh |
| 2024-09-18 06:04:50 +0200 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined) |
| 2024-09-18 06:04:52 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:04:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:01 +0200 | <Inst> | ??? |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:18 +0200 | <mauke> | <|> is left assoc |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:20 +0200 | <Inst> | the claim i'm making isn't being tested properly, what I mean is that there are two <|>s in the expression |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:39 +0200 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:41 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
| 2024-09-18 06:05:51 +0200 | <Inst> | only the first <|> should trigger, the second should fail through (in an ideal world |
| 2024-09-18 06:06:04 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-09-18 06:06:05 +0200 | <Inst> | Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined) should be operationally equivalent to Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 2024-09-18 06:06:42 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "trigger" means. Is this Haskell or is this SQL "create trigger"? |
| 2024-09-18 06:06:49 +0200 | <Inst> | hold on |
| 2024-09-18 06:06:58 +0200 | <Leary> | You can just declare `(<||>) = (<|>); infixr 3 <||>`; if you want right associativity. |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:05 +0200 | <monochrom> | But I have shown enough working examples. Where is the breakage? |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:10 +0200 | <Inst> | hmmm, i can't do this with foldr and infinite lists |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:29 +0200 | <monochrom> | Your turn to show an example not essay writing. |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:36 +0200 | <Inst> | assume an inifnite sequence of Just 4 <|> something <|> something... |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:52 +0200 | <Inst> | this should never evaluate, because the <|> keeps on getting applied |
| 2024-09-18 06:07:53 +0200 | <mauke> | it's not about correctness, only performance. I think |
| 2024-09-18 06:08:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't know how to write an infinitely long piece of code. Do you? |
| 2024-09-18 06:08:37 +0200 | <Leary> | > asum (Just 4:repeat undefined) |
| 2024-09-18 06:08:38 +0200 | <monochrom> | My disk has only 250GB it can't save an infinite source file. |
| 2024-09-18 06:08:39 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:08:55 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:03 +0200 | <Inst> | i thought you could do it with foldr (<|>) Nothing (Just 4 : repeat Nothing), but it'll insert parens |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:17 +0200 | <monochrom> | foldr is fair. |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:27 +0200 | <mauke> | (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:28 +0200 | <Inst> | but you can't do it with foldr because iirc the parens are implicit |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:31 +0200 | <Inst> | thanks Leary |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:40 +0200 | <monochrom> | > foldr (<|>) undefined (Just 4 : repeat undefined) |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:42 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:44 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:48 +0200 | <monochrom> | Still no breakage. |
| 2024-09-18 06:09:55 +0200 | <Inst> | no, but it won't break with foldr |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:04 +0200 | <monochrom> | OK, what will break? |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:05 +0200 | <mauke> | it won't break at all |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:11 +0200 | <Inst> | it's a performance concern, as mauke stated |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:16 +0200 | <monochrom> | Actual code or it didn't happen. |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:26 +0200 | <probie> | monochrom: As long as the k-complexity is finite, you can easily "fake it" with a custom fuse mount |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:29 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:10:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | For performance you can show actual benchmark. |
| 2024-09-18 06:11:09 +0200 | <monochrom> | which unsurprisingly imples actual code again. |
| 2024-09-18 06:11:20 +0200 | <monochrom> | Not meaningless words like "assume" "infinite". |
| 2024-09-18 06:11:24 +0200 | <ski> | "it'll insert parens","the parens are implicit" -- ? |
| 2024-09-18 06:11:27 +0200 | <Inst> | is your point that the repeated applications of <|> is essentially pendantry? |
| 2024-09-18 06:12:00 +0200 | <mauke> | ski: that's someone thinking in concrete syntax, not expression graphs :-) |
| 2024-09-18 06:12:20 +0200 | <monochrom> | No, my point is until you show actual example you don't even know what's the true cause. |
| 2024-09-18 06:12:33 +0200 | ski | graphs expressions against concrete syntax, extrapolates to infinity |
| 2024-09-18 06:12:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | You are acting like absolute beginners who end up blaming everything except the true cause. |
| 2024-09-18 06:13:18 +0200 | <mauke> | cause of what? |
| 2024-09-18 06:13:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | An unspecified breakage. (See that's the 2nd problem.) |
| 2024-09-18 06:13:52 +0200 | ski | . o O ( "Do not ask whether a statement is true until you know what it means." -- Errett Bishop ) |
| 2024-09-18 06:13:55 +0200 | <mauke> | monochrom: old news. there is no breakage anymore |
| 2024-09-18 06:14:21 +0200 | <monochrom> | OK sure. |
| 2024-09-18 06:14:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | What was the question again? |
| 2024-09-18 06:14:46 +0200 | <mauke> | <mauke> (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one |
| 2024-09-18 06:14:52 +0200 | <mauke> | so why is <|> infixl and not infixr? |
| 2024-09-18 06:15:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's a poor decision. |
| 2024-09-18 06:16:48 +0200 | <monochrom> | But even that didn't cause more bottoms than necessary. |
| 2024-09-18 06:17:04 +0200 | <mauke> | right. it's just less efficient |
| 2024-09-18 06:17:19 +0200 | <probie> | probably to make it play nicely with other operators under the assumption that one would use `asum` if more than one `(<|>)` was needed |
| 2024-09-18 06:18:08 +0200 | <Inst> | thanks mauke |
| 2024-09-18 06:18:26 +0200 | <Inst> | sorry, i'm thinking in terms of the primitive implementation of foldr on lists |
| 2024-09-18 06:19:18 +0200 | <Inst> | *naive |
| 2024-09-18 06:19:44 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-09-18 06:19:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | (>>) is similarly bad. I was a bit disappointed at that too. |
| 2024-09-18 06:20:10 +0200 | <Inst> | i noticed, but so did GHC team and they have it optimized on O1 and above (iirc) to be equivalent to do semicolon |
| 2024-09-18 06:20:43 +0200 | <glguy> | don’t miss a chance to write naïve :) |
| 2024-09-18 06:21:11 +0200 | <Inst> | foldr f z [] = z |
| 2024-09-18 06:21:27 +0200 | <Inst> | foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs) |
| 2024-09-18 06:21:33 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc that was in graham, no? |
| 2024-09-18 06:21:45 +0200 | <mauke> | naïve |
| 2024-09-18 06:22:10 +0200 | <mauke> | > foldr f z [a,b,c,d] |
| 2024-09-18 06:22:12 +0200 | <lambdabot> | f a (f b (f c (f d z))) |
| 2024-09-18 06:22:16 +0200 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) |
| 2024-09-18 06:23:12 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 06:26:38 +0200 | <Inst> | but thanks for the help, i've never used asum before and i think that's the correct solution to griping about infixl |
| 2024-09-18 06:27:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:31:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 06:31:54 +0200 | <Inst> | I saw someone get around Haskell's lack of f lists with concat [strings...] |
| 2024-09-18 06:35:13 +0200 | <ski> | "f lists" ? |
| 2024-09-18 06:35:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:40:11 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.218) |
| 2024-09-18 06:44:41 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-09-18 06:49:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 06:53:01 +0200 | <Inst> | erm, f strings |
| 2024-09-18 06:53:34 +0200 | <Inst> | i prefer traverse putStr or just otherwise keeping it as a list |
| 2024-09-18 06:53:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 06:54:10 +0200 | <Inst> | traverse (foo :: Monad m => a -> m b) list is great |
| 2024-09-18 07:05:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 12:24:35 +0200 | spider1 | (spider@tilde.cafe) |
| 2024-09-18 12:31:45 +0200 | mari66658 | (~mari-este@2a02:3032:30e:c8b5:216:3eff:fe65:4eef) (Quit: reading a bit) |
| 2024-09-18 12:32:02 +0200 | akegalj | (~akegalj@141-136-172-97.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 2024-09-18 12:32:36 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 12:34:35 +0200 | <akegalj> | ghc option `-jN` when N is ommited says it builds with number of processors host machine has (https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using.html#ghc-flag--j[%E2%9F%A8n%E2%9F%A9]). If host machine has 1 processor with 4 cores, will N be 1 or 4? |
| 2024-09-18 12:38:45 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip2504fbd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-09-18 12:42:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 12:42:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | 4 or possibly 8 (if hyperthreading is enabled) |
| 2024-09-18 12:46:29 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (hyperthreading is usually disabled because it tends to be a lose) |
| 2024-09-18 12:46:55 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (hyperthreading is essentially always enabled on personal computers) |
| 2024-09-18 12:47:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (it is sometimes disabled on servers) |
| 2024-09-18 12:47:53 +0200 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: ty <3 |
| 2024-09-18 12:47:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | akegalj: on linux, $ grep '^processor' /proc/cpuinfo |
| 2024-09-18 12:48:31 +0200 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: ok great. I was just confused by core/processor terminology |
| 2024-09-18 12:48:44 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | for some reason, /proc/cpuinfo uses the same "processor" terminology |
| 2024-09-18 12:49:00 +0200 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/AqGaf4MW |
| 2024-09-18 12:49:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | akegalj: note that due to hyperthreading, "core" is also an ambiguous word |
| 2024-09-18 12:49:42 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: do you have a fancy custom interpreter set in the kernel for .hs files? |
| 2024-09-18 12:50:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | well, the real point here is I don't think there's any way in software to determine cores vs. processors unless you have access to the system management bus |
| 2024-09-18 12:50:11 +0200 | <geekosaur> | no, I pre-compiled that |
| 2024-09-18 12:50:18 +0200 | tomsmeding | is blind |
| 2024-09-18 12:50:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: what do you mean with "core" and "processor" here :p |
| 2024-09-18 12:51:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I'm going with what akegalj seemed to mean by them, one physical package (processor) with multiple cores |
| 2024-09-18 12:51:31 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | is a core-y thing that is split into two units using hyperthreading, 1 or 2 "cores"? |
| 2024-09-18 12:52:18 +0200 | <geekosaur> | ask linux |
| 2024-09-18 12:52:30 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | grep '^processor\|^core id' /proc/cpuinfo |
| 2024-09-18 12:52:35 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | this is known information in software |
| 2024-09-18 12:53:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 12:53:18 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | /proc/cpuinfo apparently talks about 1 chip having N "cores", each having possibly multiple "processors" inside |
| 2024-09-18 12:53:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (the word "chip" is not mentioned) |
| 2024-09-18 12:53:25 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78.10.206.35) (Quit: oo_miguel) |
| 2024-09-18 12:54:00 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so according to Linux, my intel i9-10900K has 10 cores and 20 processors |
| 2024-09-18 12:54:06 +0200 | <geekosaur> | btw "custom interpreter" is not difficult to arrange on linux iirc |
| 2024-09-18 12:54:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | iirc it indeed isn't, but I've never seen anyone do it :) |
| 2024-09-18 12:54:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (and I misread and thought that was `./np.hs` instead of `./np`) |
| 2024-09-18 12:55:08 +0200 | sourcetarius | (~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 12:55:23 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | CPU manufacturers tend to talk about a chip having "cores", which may have 2 "threads" each |
| 2024-09-18 12:55:27 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d09b:def9:34dc:ea3f) |
| 2024-09-18 12:56:04 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | GPU manufacturers lie through their teeth |
| 2024-09-18 12:56:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (partly because the story is just simply more complex on a GPU) |
| 2024-09-18 12:57:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 12:59:28 +0200 | <akegalj> | geekosaur: one more stupid question ... I see that `+RTS -N` enables number of cores for ghc app to run with. Does that mean if I want ghc to compile with multiple cores/processors I have to `ghc -j +RTS -N` in order for ghc to run with more threads or is it enough to say `ghc -j` and this assumes compilers rts will use N threads. I wonder what would happen if I did `ghc +RTS -N` ommiting -j |
| 2024-09-18 13:00:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | try it ;) |
| 2024-09-18 13:00:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | -j should be enough |
| 2024-09-18 13:00:31 +0200 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: <3 |
| 2024-09-18 13:00:37 +0200 | kuribas | (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 13:00:55 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I think it will do `setNumCapabilities` itself in that case, yes |
| 2024-09-18 13:01:21 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | depending on how exactly ghc itself has been compiled, `ghc +RTS -N` without -j will be mostly the same as `ghc` but with a little more overhead from pointless parallel GC |
| 2024-09-18 13:11:21 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 13:13:28 +0200 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.1) |
| 2024-09-18 13:16:36 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) |
| 2024-09-18 13:18:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 13:19:12 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d09b:def9:34dc:ea3f) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 13:19:27 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-09-18 13:26:23 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-09-18 13:27:13 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-09-18 13:27:21 +0200 | ZharMeny` | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) |
| 2024-09-18 13:29:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 13:37:03 +0200 | ZharMeny` | ZharMeny |
| 2024-09-18 13:54:08 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 14:07:01 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-09-18 14:07:30 +0200 | kuribas | (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) |
| 2024-09-18 14:10:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 14:26:51 +0200 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) |
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| 2024-09-18 14:39:02 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 14:51:57 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2024-09-18 14:52:46 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) |
| 2024-09-18 14:55:58 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 15:05:12 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@178.165.165.126.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Client Quit) |
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| 2024-09-18 15:11:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 2024-09-18 15:11:46 +0200 | athan | (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 2024-09-18 15:43:11 +0200 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@p200300f1c7015b0102163efffe654eef.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-09-18 15:44:23 +0200 | ZharMeny | (~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-09-18 16:28:38 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@175.136.158.234) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-09-18 16:31:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 2024-09-18 16:41:02 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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