2025/04/22

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2025-04-22 00:57:01 +0200__jmcantrell__(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
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2025-04-22 01:39:34 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
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2025-04-22 01:46:23 +0200 <EvanR> There is a 27-state turing machine which halts if and only if goldbach's conjecture is true
2025-04-22 01:51:06 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@94.156.149.91) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-04-22 01:52:11 +0200 <EvanR> does this mean if you know the running time of the 27-state busy beaver that you know the answer to goldbach's conjecture
2025-04-22 01:53:42 +0200 <TMA> you can decide by running it for the 27-beaver steps
2025-04-22 01:54:00 +0200Guest49(~Guest49@astrolabe.plus.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-04-22 01:54:38 +0200 <TMA> so, you do not know it immediately, but you know it in theory, because only finite many steps are missing
2025-04-22 01:55:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 01:55:53 +0200 <geekosaur> what's the difference between "halts" and "halts in a finite but possibly unbounded amount of time"
2025-04-22 01:56:31 +0200 <EvanR> fininte but possibly unbounded?
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 <geekosaur> I know I got the terminology wrong there
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 <TMA> a k-state TM that halts halts in at most BB(k) steps
2025-04-22 01:57:06 +0200 <geekosaur> but if it runs for 10^60 years, do you really know the answer from its running time?
2025-04-22 01:57:25 +0200 <EvanR> yeah "you know it in theory" is funny
2025-04-22 01:57:37 +0200 <TMA> in theory there is no difference between theory and praxis
2025-04-22 01:57:55 +0200 <TMA> in praxis the difference tends to be immense
2025-04-22 01:58:43 +0200 <TMA> mathematics does not concern itself with praxis though :)
2025-04-22 01:58:53 +0200 <TMA> that's for engineers
2025-04-22 01:59:10 +0200 <EvanR> with this clarification of what's what, I think the answer to my question is "no"
2025-04-22 02:00:05 +0200 <EvanR> also
2025-04-22 02:00:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:00:27 +0200 <EvanR> "knowing" what this 27-beaver number is is funny
2025-04-22 02:00:47 +0200 <EvanR> would it be like something with scientific notation, or something that defies notation because it's so big
2025-04-22 02:01:33 +0200 <EvanR> in which case I'm not sure what knowing entails
2025-04-22 02:03:56 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) foul_owl
2025-04-22 02:04:34 +0200jespada(~jespada@r190-135-225-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:04:43 +0200 <EvanR> which leads me to question if you can "know" what the value 2834528348238485234593452341237645 is
2025-04-22 02:05:05 +0200 <EvanR> maybe inventing a new annoying form of ultrafinitism
2025-04-22 02:05:51 +0200 <TMA> S(6) > 10 ^^ 15 (^^ is tetration)
2025-04-22 02:11:55 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f08445cea1ba17aeda3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:11:56 +0200Googulator92(~Googulato@94-21-172-228.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-04-22 02:12:13 +0200Googulator92(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2077-315b-d519-517f-afe7.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-04-22 02:12:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-22 02:26:08 +0200tt12310978324354(~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) tt1231
2025-04-22 02:26:46 +0200 <monochrom> Huh, I disagree. In whose theory there is no difference? Because in my theory, there is already a difference, I try very hard to have/use honest theories.
2025-04-22 02:27:26 +0200 <monochrom> Because if it is your theory that says there is no difference, then the problem is with you, not with the idea of having theories.
2025-04-22 02:27:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 02:27:45 +0200Guest8(~Guest8@141.11.146.67)
2025-04-22 02:28:10 +0200Guest8(~Guest8@141.11.146.67) (Client Quit)
2025-04-22 02:29:50 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:30:06 +0200jacopovalanzano(~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-04-22 02:30:34 +0200 <monochrom> But yes the running time of that 27-state machine should tell you quite something about the answer to goldbach's conjecture. I don't know the machine itself so I don't know what it will tell you.
2025-04-22 02:31:35 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf
2025-04-22 02:32:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:38:15 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb)
2025-04-22 02:44:51 +0200 <EvanR> "the" machine with 27-states is unrelated, just that it halts is the important part, and that nothing runs longer without running forever
2025-04-22 02:45:43 +0200 <EvanR> actually there was at least two machines with that number of states discussed
2025-04-22 02:45:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 02:46:09 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:47:15 +0200otto_s(~user@p5de2ffcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:48:10 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:48:43 +0200amadaluzia_(~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf)
2025-04-22 02:49:27 +0200 <EvanR> the goldbach one may not halt ("probably not" according to heuristics)
2025-04-22 02:49:51 +0200 <monochrom> Ah OK so is this the plan? Race the/a Goldbach machine (it has 27 states) against BB(27). We gain information from which one finishes first.
2025-04-22 02:50:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:50:35 +0200 <monochrom> May be merely 1 bit for all that trouble. :)
2025-04-22 02:50:57 +0200 <EvanR> a pretty valuable bit though, how much prize money
2025-04-22 02:51:56 +0200 <monochrom> grad students are much cheaper and faster >:)
2025-04-22 02:52:29 +0200 <EvanR> ok like a million dollars
2025-04-22 02:52:37 +0200 <monochrom> (then trying to run BB(27))
2025-04-22 02:52:47 +0200 <monochrom> ( s/then/than/ )
2025-04-22 02:54:02 +0200 <EvanR> I see that your plan is different from anything discussed above
2025-04-22 02:54:22 +0200 <EvanR> I was like what if you know, you're like, race two machines
2025-04-22 02:54:32 +0200 <EvanR> much more dramatic
2025-04-22 02:54:38 +0200 <monochrom> heh
2025-04-22 02:55:15 +0200 <EvanR> one involved the number BB(27) and the other involves a machine with that runtime
2025-04-22 02:55:22 +0200 <monochrom> If you know the running time of BB(27), then you no longer have to race, you run only the Goldbach machine and you know how long to wait.
2025-04-22 02:56:13 +0200 <monochrom> Alternatively maybe "BB(27)" refers to that running time. OK you know how to correct my plan.
2025-04-22 02:56:30 +0200 <EvanR> 27 isn't that many states
2025-04-22 02:56:52 +0200 <EvanR> but I'm guessing we don't know the machine
2025-04-22 02:57:06 +0200 <EvanR> a machine
2025-04-22 02:57:15 +0200 <EvanR> a busy beaver
2025-04-22 02:57:40 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah I believe we only know up to 6.
2025-04-22 02:58:21 +0200tt12310978324354(~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-04-22 03:02:34 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@94.156.149.97) foul_owl
2025-04-22 03:04:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 03:04:39 +0200otto_s(~user@p5b044854.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2025-04-22 03:14:51 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ai066236.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:18:05 +0200tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2025-04-22 03:18:21 +0200amadaluz-(~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com)
2025-04-22 03:22:01 +0200amadaluzia_(~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:22:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> so, should i finish figuring out how to set up login on my server, or should I play with Miso to set up a Zhuangzi.io host, using the Burt Watson translation?
2025-04-22 03:22:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 03:23:28 +0200 <EvanR> who
2025-04-22 03:24:42 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c)
2025-04-22 03:25:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> some dead philosopher, fond of jokes, paradox, and contradiction
2025-04-22 03:26:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> was recently surprised the only free online repo is on ctext.org, using an ancient translation
2025-04-22 03:26:35 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Zhuangzi: Was I a butterfly dreaming that I am Zhuang Zhou, or am I Zhang Zhou dreaming that I am a butterfly?
2025-04-22 03:26:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:27:23 +0200abrar_(~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:27:48 +0200abrar(~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2025-04-22 03:29:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's more about learning miso, in a low-risk project
2025-04-22 03:29:45 +0200 <EvanR> 庄子
2025-04-22 03:30:44 +0200 <EvanR> or 莊子
2025-04-22 03:31:47 +0200 <EvanR> how about a dose of "before covid" times https://ro-che.info/ccc/9
2025-04-22 03:35:58 +0200 <monochrom> I don't understand why setting up login requires a translation of a Chinese philosophy text.
2025-04-22 03:36:30 +0200 <monochrom> Unless you just mean "how do I make the server allow a book-length password"
2025-04-22 03:37:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> by setting up login, i mean having a page and sql backend that can allow user accounts to log in
2025-04-22 03:37:58 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i only have it set up so far that user accounts can be created, an activation e-mail can be sent, and that e-mail contains a link to a key which is checked against a table to turn the account to "activated"
2025-04-22 03:38:53 +0200 <monochrom> There is actually a Japanese manga that has scene coming close to that. The password requires a pair of twins synchronously read alout a few verses from Ecclesiastes in the Bible.
2025-04-22 03:39:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 03:43:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i'm still shocked the chinese haven't gone to diceware with randomly generated tang-dynasties poetry operating as passwords
2025-04-22 03:43:58 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> 41 bits of entropy per line?
2025-04-22 03:44:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:44:51 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the problem is, you'd need to learn cangjie or wubi or some other code-based character input method to actually be able to input such a password efficiently
2025-04-22 03:54:16 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-04-22 03:55:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 03:56:30 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> apparently there have been some papers on the entropy of crlassical chinese poetry, it's often memorable; estimates are like 30-35 bits
2025-04-22 03:57:27 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> per line, so 4 line poem would translate to 128 bit, 8 line 256 bit, but you'd have to understand systems of character input that aren't based on phonetics
2025-04-22 04:00:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-22 04:01:43 +0200 <EvanR> how bits to designate which chinese poem + where to start
2025-04-22 04:01:47 +0200 <EvanR> how many
2025-04-22 04:03:26 +0200amadaluz-(~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Hi, this is Paul Allen. I'm being called away to London for a few days. Meredith, I'll call you when I get back. Hasta la vista, baby.)
2025-04-22 04:06:18 +0200 <EvanR> 16 bits could index into 65k poems + a few bits for the starting position
2025-04-22 04:08:11 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-04-22 04:10:42 +0200 <monochrom> Well, both start and length. Still, barely more than 16 bits.
2025-04-22 04:11:30 +0200zmt01(~zmt00@user/zmt00) zmt00
2025-04-22 04:13:04 +0200zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 04:13:18 +0200 <EvanR> if I said, you'll never guess my password. It's classic rock lyrics
2025-04-22 04:13:23 +0200 <EvanR> I'd be dumb
2025-04-22 04:13:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 04:17:58 +0200inca(~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2025-04-22 04:18:12 +0200 <monochrom> The real number of bits is, if you think about it, how much the attacker knows about your choice space. People who think well-known literature is secure are thinking that the attacker figures only random sentences of similar length. To some extent it is true, but also to some extent it's just another securty-by-obscurity.
2025-04-22 04:18:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 04:19:01 +0200 <monochrom> You are busted as soon as an attacker figures out you're just choosing from well-known literature. That space is so much smaller.
2025-04-22 04:20:05 +0200 <EvanR> can you implement my preferred online security
2025-04-22 04:20:20 +0200 <EvanR> if you get the password wrong 3 times, it deletes your entire account
2025-04-22 04:20:50 +0200 <EvanR> then you also don't have to implement "offboarding" or privacy protection supeona stuff
2025-04-22 04:21:11 +0200 <monochrom> I'm trying to think of a cute name for that. :)
2025-04-22 04:21:25 +0200 <EvanR> and I would use this feature on at least 10 websites immediately
2025-04-22 04:21:56 +0200 <monochrom> security-by-oblivion :)
2025-04-22 04:23:42 +0200 <monochrom> I'm going to make up a word to increase rhyming. security-by-oblitery
2025-04-22 04:26:33 +0200 <monochrom> You will get your accounts deleting in no time.
2025-04-22 04:26:39 +0200 <monochrom> s/deleting/deleted/
2025-04-22 04:26:47 +0200arkeet(~arkeet@moriya.ca) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2025-04-22 04:27:44 +0200 <monochrom> I instead would accept just locking my account waiting for me to take action instead. which most of the industry agrees.
2025-04-22 04:28:47 +0200 <monochrom> Over the past 10 years I actually got my credit card locked twice, each time for what the bank's ANN considered an unusal transaction.
2025-04-22 04:29:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 04:29:36 +0200 <monochrom> (Phoned up the bank and/or show ID at bank in person, and confirm the transactions, to unlock)
2025-04-22 04:30:18 +0200 <geekosaur> huh. mine just declines the transaction and asks me for confirmation, after which I have to tell the vendor to retry it
2025-04-22 04:30:43 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah mine was locked, i.e., no further transactions, even unrelated.
2025-04-22 04:31:33 +0200 <monochrom> I be damned if they completely cancelled the credit card account altogather. Unless, of course, it also means my whole month's debt is also forgiven. >:)
2025-04-22 04:33:38 +0200 <monochrom> (One time it was boxing week so yeah would be accepting if my boxing week shopping up to that point were free haha.)
2025-04-22 04:33:49 +0200 <monochrom> s/accepting/acceptable/
2025-04-22 04:34:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 04:35:30 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-22 04:39:52 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-04-22 04:47:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-22 07:51:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> monochrom: I mean randomly generated poetry
2025-04-22 07:51:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's been done stateside
2025-04-22 07:52:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://magazine.viterbi.usc.edu/fall-2015/whats-next/password-poetry/
2025-04-22 07:52:54 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb)
2025-04-22 07:52:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it just comes to mind cuz
2025-04-22 07:53:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://bendolnick.substack.com/p/cixin-liu-cloud-of-poems
2025-04-22 07:54:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> "earth is conquered by dinosaurs. Then dinosaurs meet even more advanced species, true aliens this time, who take an interest in human poetry and decide to brute force attack the problem of poetry and use the solar system as a storage medium for their generated poems"
2025-04-22 07:54:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> surprisingly, i see a lot of diceware, but not a lot of poetryware, simply because the latter requires NLP chops to generate memorable poems
2025-04-22 07:55:54 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://slate.com/technology/2017/07/what-happens-when-an-a-i-program-tries-to-write-poetry.html
2025-04-22 07:55:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> this is better coverage
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2025-04-22 08:30:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> Is Haskell poetry?
2025-04-22 08:36:15 +0200Xe(~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe
2025-04-22 08:36:20 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-04-22 08:38:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 08:42:48 +0200 <Axman6> sometimes, yes
2025-04-22 08:43:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 08:44:03 +0200 <Axman6> @quote osteele
2025-04-22 08:44:04 +0200 <lambdabot> osteele says: Reading Haskell is like reading poetry and writing Haskell is like writing poetry. As opposed to Python and Ruby, which are more prosaic, and Enterprise Java, which is more like a tax
2025-04-22 08:44:04 +0200 <lambdabot> form.
2025-04-22 08:45:37 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-04-22 08:47:08 +0200 <Axman6> @quote cryomorphobalonical
2025-04-22 08:47:08 +0200 <lambdabot> geheimdienst says: We employ a simple implementation of cryomorphobalonical panfunctors as introduced by Axman6
2025-04-22 08:47:22 +0200 <Axman6> I have no recollection of this happening, but I will happily take credit
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2025-04-22 09:22:42 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
2025-04-22 09:23:06 +0200Guest55potyymouth
2025-04-22 09:24:42 +0200 <potyymouth> Hi
2025-04-22 09:25:23 +0200 <potyymouth> Is real world Haskell still a good intro text
2025-04-22 09:25:48 +0200potyymouth(~Guest55@149.115.69.184) (Client Quit)
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2025-04-22 09:28:02 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-04-22 09:30:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> @potyymouth It's a bit outdated, but the beginning especially is basic concepts which are timeless. But the parts about setting it up and some libraries are outdated
2025-04-22 09:30:35 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/installing-ghc-and-haskell-libraries.html - windows xp screenshots, lol
2025-04-22 09:34:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Ah fuck, they left
2025-04-22 09:37:56 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2025-04-22 09:44:49 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's probably going to be disturbing the number of people who use type signatures as passwords
2025-04-22 09:45:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> How many Haskell engineers it takes to change a lightbulb?
2025-04-22 09:45:51 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> foo :: (MonadReader m, MonadRandom m) => m a -> (Int, Int) -> m ()
2025-04-22 09:47:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> normalized to without spaces? sounds an interesting idea
2025-04-22 09:47:46 +0200dhil(~dhil@5.151.29.141) dhil
2025-04-22 09:48:13 +0200jacopovalanzano(~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net)
2025-04-22 09:48:38 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> entropy's too low, i guess, needs more type spaghetti
2025-04-22 09:49:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also, question: what's the concrete representation of newtype Foo = MkFoo Foo?
2025-04-22 09:49:29 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> a thunk of Foo?
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2025-04-22 10:31:20 +0200ftzm(~ftzm@085080236099.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm
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2025-04-22 10:53:11 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also, a bit bored
2025-04-22 10:53:29 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> how would you define a type such that it'd represent impure values that upon evaluation execute a side effect?
2025-04-22 10:54:19 +0200ftzm(~ftzm@085080236099.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-04-22 10:54:19 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> newtype Impure a = Impure (a, IORef (IO ()))
2025-04-22 10:54:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> abstract datatype
2025-04-22 10:56:30 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-22 10:56:40 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2025-04-22 10:58:13 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> newImpure a action = Impure $ let effect = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (action >> pure ()) in seq (unsafePerformIO $ unsafePerformIO $ readIORef effect) $ (a, effect)
2025-04-22 10:58:35 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> still wouldn't work because you'd want to be able to modify the IORef without triggering the value
2025-04-22 10:58:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> Liamzee: can also do `newtype Impure a = Impure (IORef (IO a))`
2025-04-22 10:58:45 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> erm, triggering the side effect
2025-04-22 10:58:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> replace the IO a action with `pure x` after evaluation
2025-04-22 10:59:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> that works better!
2025-04-22 10:59:38 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-22 10:59:45 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> triggering the effect
2025-04-22 10:59:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you want asynchronous execution: `type Impure = MVar`
2025-04-22 11:00:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> initialise it by forkIO-ing a thread that, upon completion, `putMVar`s the result
2025-04-22 11:00:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> getting the result out is readMVar; that blocks if there's nothing in there yet
2025-04-22 11:00:40 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-ad9e-0ba9-a337-5b76.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2025-04-22 11:02:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i guess we're back to the monadic innovation, i.e, imperative programming is a subset of monadic effect programming, but all monadic effect programming is not imperative programming