| 2025-04-22 00:04:04 +0200 | mceresa | (~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:08:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 00:09:18 +0200 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2025-04-22 00:09:54 +0200 | mceresa | (~mceresa@user/mceresa) mceresa |
| 2025-04-22 00:14:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:15:16 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) amadaluzia |
| 2025-04-22 00:17:22 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 00:18:10 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-001-244.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:19:45 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-04-22 00:20:24 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:21:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:25:52 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-04-22 00:30:59 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:33:01 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-04-22 00:33:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 00:34:16 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu |
| 2025-04-22 00:38:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:38:18 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.147.147) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:40:35 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:41:13 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) |
| 2025-04-22 00:43:01 +0200 | jespada | (~jespada@r179-25-155-68.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:47:43 +0200 | jespada | (~jespada@r190-135-225-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) jespada |
| 2025-04-22 00:51:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 00:52:20 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-04-22 00:53:49 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:56:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 00:57:01 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-04-22 00:58:14 +0200 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:04:01 +0200 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f24580070b20176ff3a786c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-04-22 01:06:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 01:11:04 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:15:31 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2025-04-22 01:15:44 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-001-244.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2025-04-22 01:18:13 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:18:17 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 01:21:58 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-04-22 01:25:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:28:15 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-04-22 01:34:56 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:37:58 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 01:39:34 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-04-22 01:42:27 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:45:18 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-04-22 01:46:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | There is a 27-state turing machine which halts if and only if goldbach's conjecture is true |
| 2025-04-22 01:51:06 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@94.156.149.91) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 01:52:11 +0200 | <EvanR> | does this mean if you know the running time of the 27-state busy beaver that you know the answer to goldbach's conjecture |
| 2025-04-22 01:53:42 +0200 | <TMA> | you can decide by running it for the 27-beaver steps |
| 2025-04-22 01:54:00 +0200 | Guest49 | (~Guest49@astrolabe.plus.com) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-04-22 01:54:38 +0200 | <TMA> | so, you do not know it immediately, but you know it in theory, because only finite many steps are missing |
| 2025-04-22 01:55:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 01:55:53 +0200 | <geekosaur> | what's the difference between "halts" and "halts in a finite but possibly unbounded amount of time" |
| 2025-04-22 01:56:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | fininte but possibly unbounded? |
| 2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I know I got the terminology wrong there |
| 2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 | <TMA> | a k-state TM that halts halts in at most BB(k) steps |
| 2025-04-22 01:57:06 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but if it runs for 10^60 years, do you really know the answer from its running time? |
| 2025-04-22 01:57:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | yeah "you know it in theory" is funny |
| 2025-04-22 01:57:37 +0200 | <TMA> | in theory there is no difference between theory and praxis |
| 2025-04-22 01:57:55 +0200 | <TMA> | in praxis the difference tends to be immense |
| 2025-04-22 01:58:43 +0200 | <TMA> | mathematics does not concern itself with praxis though :) |
| 2025-04-22 01:58:53 +0200 | <TMA> | that's for engineers |
| 2025-04-22 01:59:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | with this clarification of what's what, I think the answer to my question is "no" |
| 2025-04-22 02:00:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | also |
| 2025-04-22 02:00:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:00:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | "knowing" what this 27-beaver number is is funny |
| 2025-04-22 02:00:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | would it be like something with scientific notation, or something that defies notation because it's so big |
| 2025-04-22 02:01:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | in which case I'm not sure what knowing entails |
| 2025-04-22 02:03:56 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) foul_owl |
| 2025-04-22 02:04:34 +0200 | jespada | (~jespada@r190-135-225-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:04:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | which leads me to question if you can "know" what the value 2834528348238485234593452341237645 is |
| 2025-04-22 02:05:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | maybe inventing a new annoying form of ultrafinitism |
| 2025-04-22 02:05:51 +0200 | <TMA> | S(6) > 10 ^^ 15 (^^ is tetration) |
| 2025-04-22 02:11:55 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f08445cea1ba17aeda3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:11:56 +0200 | Googulator92 | (~Googulato@94-21-172-228.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-04-22 02:12:13 +0200 | Googulator92 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2077-315b-d519-517f-afe7.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-04-22 02:12:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 02:17:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:26:08 +0200 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) tt1231 |
| 2025-04-22 02:26:46 +0200 | <monochrom> | Huh, I disagree. In whose theory there is no difference? Because in my theory, there is already a difference, I try very hard to have/use honest theories. |
| 2025-04-22 02:27:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | Because if it is your theory that says there is no difference, then the problem is with you, not with the idea of having theories. |
| 2025-04-22 02:27:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 02:27:45 +0200 | Guest8 | (~Guest8@141.11.146.67) |
| 2025-04-22 02:28:10 +0200 | Guest8 | (~Guest8@141.11.146.67) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 02:29:50 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:30:06 +0200 | jacopovalanzano | (~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-04-22 02:30:34 +0200 | <monochrom> | But yes the running time of that 27-state machine should tell you quite something about the answer to goldbach's conjecture. I don't know the machine itself so I don't know what it will tell you. |
| 2025-04-22 02:31:35 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf |
| 2025-04-22 02:32:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:38:15 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) |
| 2025-04-22 02:44:51 +0200 | <EvanR> | "the" machine with 27-states is unrelated, just that it halts is the important part, and that nothing runs longer without running forever |
| 2025-04-22 02:45:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | actually there was at least two machines with that number of states discussed |
| 2025-04-22 02:45:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 02:46:09 +0200 | mceresa | (~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:47:15 +0200 | otto_s | (~user@p5de2ffcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:48:10 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:48:43 +0200 | amadaluzia_ | (~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf) |
| 2025-04-22 02:49:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | the goldbach one may not halt ("probably not" according to heuristics) |
| 2025-04-22 02:49:51 +0200 | <monochrom> | Ah OK so is this the plan? Race the/a Goldbach machine (it has 27 states) against BB(27). We gain information from which one finishes first. |
| 2025-04-22 02:50:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 02:50:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | May be merely 1 bit for all that trouble. :) |
| 2025-04-22 02:50:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | a pretty valuable bit though, how much prize money |
| 2025-04-22 02:51:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | grad students are much cheaper and faster >:) |
| 2025-04-22 02:52:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | ok like a million dollars |
| 2025-04-22 02:52:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | (then trying to run BB(27)) |
| 2025-04-22 02:52:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | ( s/then/than/ ) |
| 2025-04-22 02:54:02 +0200 | <EvanR> | I see that your plan is different from anything discussed above |
| 2025-04-22 02:54:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | I was like what if you know, you're like, race two machines |
| 2025-04-22 02:54:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | much more dramatic |
| 2025-04-22 02:54:38 +0200 | <monochrom> | heh |
| 2025-04-22 02:55:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | one involved the number BB(27) and the other involves a machine with that runtime |
| 2025-04-22 02:55:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | If you know the running time of BB(27), then you no longer have to race, you run only the Goldbach machine and you know how long to wait. |
| 2025-04-22 02:56:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | Alternatively maybe "BB(27)" refers to that running time. OK you know how to correct my plan. |
| 2025-04-22 02:56:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | 27 isn't that many states |
| 2025-04-22 02:56:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | but I'm guessing we don't know the machine |
| 2025-04-22 02:57:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | a machine |
| 2025-04-22 02:57:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | a busy beaver |
| 2025-04-22 02:57:40 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah I believe we only know up to 6. |
| 2025-04-22 02:58:21 +0200 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2025-04-22 03:02:34 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@94.156.149.97) foul_owl |
| 2025-04-22 03:04:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 03:04:39 +0200 | otto_s | (~user@p5b044854.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2025-04-22 03:11:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:14:51 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@ai066236.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:18:05 +0200 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2025-04-22 03:18:21 +0200 | amadaluz- | (~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2025-04-22 03:22:01 +0200 | amadaluzia_ | (~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:22:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> so, should i finish figuring out how to set up login on my server, or should I play with Miso to set up a Zhuangzi.io host, using the Burt Watson translation? |
| 2025-04-22 03:22:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 03:23:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | who |
| 2025-04-22 03:24:42 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) |
| 2025-04-22 03:25:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> some dead philosopher, fond of jokes, paradox, and contradiction |
| 2025-04-22 03:26:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> was recently surprised the only free online repo is on ctext.org, using an ancient translation |
| 2025-04-22 03:26:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Zhuangzi: Was I a butterfly dreaming that I am Zhuang Zhou, or am I Zhang Zhou dreaming that I am a butterfly? |
| 2025-04-22 03:26:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:27:23 +0200 | abrar_ | (~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:27:48 +0200 | abrar | (~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 03:29:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's more about learning miso, in a low-risk project |
| 2025-04-22 03:29:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | 庄子 |
| 2025-04-22 03:30:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | or 莊子 |
| 2025-04-22 03:31:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | how about a dose of "before covid" times https://ro-che.info/ccc/9 |
| 2025-04-22 03:35:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why setting up login requires a translation of a Chinese philosophy text. |
| 2025-04-22 03:36:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | Unless you just mean "how do I make the server allow a book-length password" |
| 2025-04-22 03:37:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> by setting up login, i mean having a page and sql backend that can allow user accounts to log in |
| 2025-04-22 03:37:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i only have it set up so far that user accounts can be created, an activation e-mail can be sent, and that e-mail contains a link to a key which is checked against a table to turn the account to "activated" |
| 2025-04-22 03:38:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | There is actually a Japanese manga that has scene coming close to that. The password requires a pair of twins synchronously read alout a few verses from Ecclesiastes in the Bible. |
| 2025-04-22 03:39:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 03:43:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm still shocked the chinese haven't gone to diceware with randomly generated tang-dynasties poetry operating as passwords |
| 2025-04-22 03:43:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 41 bits of entropy per line? |
| 2025-04-22 03:44:29 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 03:44:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the problem is, you'd need to learn cangjie or wubi or some other code-based character input method to actually be able to input such a password efficiently |
| 2025-04-22 03:54:16 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-04-22 03:55:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 03:56:30 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> apparently there have been some papers on the entropy of crlassical chinese poetry, it's often memorable; estimates are like 30-35 bits |
| 2025-04-22 03:57:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> per line, so 4 line poem would translate to 128 bit, 8 line 256 bit, but you'd have to understand systems of character input that aren't based on phonetics |
| 2025-04-22 04:00:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 04:01:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | how bits to designate which chinese poem + where to start |
| 2025-04-22 04:01:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | how many |
| 2025-04-22 04:03:26 +0200 | amadaluz- | (~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Hi, this is Paul Allen. I'm being called away to London for a few days. Meredith, I'll call you when I get back. Hasta la vista, baby.) |
| 2025-04-22 04:06:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | 16 bits could index into 65k poems + a few bits for the starting position |
| 2025-04-22 04:08:11 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2025-04-22 04:10:42 +0200 | <monochrom> | Well, both start and length. Still, barely more than 16 bits. |
| 2025-04-22 04:11:30 +0200 | zmt01 | (~zmt00@user/zmt00) zmt00 |
| 2025-04-22 04:13:04 +0200 | zmt00 | (~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 04:13:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | if I said, you'll never guess my password. It's classic rock lyrics |
| 2025-04-22 04:13:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | I'd be dumb |
| 2025-04-22 04:13:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 04:17:58 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 04:18:12 +0200 | <monochrom> | The real number of bits is, if you think about it, how much the attacker knows about your choice space. People who think well-known literature is secure are thinking that the attacker figures only random sentences of similar length. To some extent it is true, but also to some extent it's just another securty-by-obscurity. |
| 2025-04-22 04:18:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 04:19:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | You are busted as soon as an attacker figures out you're just choosing from well-known literature. That space is so much smaller. |
| 2025-04-22 04:20:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | can you implement my preferred online security |
| 2025-04-22 04:20:20 +0200 | <EvanR> | if you get the password wrong 3 times, it deletes your entire account |
| 2025-04-22 04:20:50 +0200 | <EvanR> | then you also don't have to implement "offboarding" or privacy protection supeona stuff |
| 2025-04-22 04:21:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | I'm trying to think of a cute name for that. :) |
| 2025-04-22 04:21:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | and I would use this feature on at least 10 websites immediately |
| 2025-04-22 04:21:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | security-by-oblivion :) |
| 2025-04-22 04:23:42 +0200 | <monochrom> | I'm going to make up a word to increase rhyming. security-by-oblitery |
| 2025-04-22 04:26:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | You will get your accounts deleting in no time. |
| 2025-04-22 04:26:39 +0200 | <monochrom> | s/deleting/deleted/ |
| 2025-04-22 04:26:47 +0200 | arkeet | (~arkeet@moriya.ca) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-04-22 04:27:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | I instead would accept just locking my account waiting for me to take action instead. which most of the industry agrees. |
| 2025-04-22 04:28:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | Over the past 10 years I actually got my credit card locked twice, each time for what the bank's ANN considered an unusal transaction. |
| 2025-04-22 04:29:32 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 04:29:36 +0200 | <monochrom> | (Phoned up the bank and/or show ID at bank in person, and confirm the transactions, to unlock) |
| 2025-04-22 04:30:18 +0200 | <geekosaur> | huh. mine just declines the transaction and asks me for confirmation, after which I have to tell the vendor to retry it |
| 2025-04-22 04:30:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah mine was locked, i.e., no further transactions, even unrelated. |
| 2025-04-22 04:31:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | I be damned if they completely cancelled the credit card account altogather. Unless, of course, it also means my whole month's debt is also forgiven. >:) |
| 2025-04-22 04:33:38 +0200 | <monochrom> | (One time it was boxing week so yeah would be accepting if my boxing week shopping up to that point were free haha.) |
| 2025-04-22 04:33:49 +0200 | <monochrom> | s/accepting/acceptable/ |
| 2025-04-22 04:34:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 04:35:30 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 04:39:52 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-04-22 04:47:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 04:54:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:06:49 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 05:07:25 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) chiselfuse |
| 2025-04-22 05:07:29 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 05:11:50 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2025-04-22 05:12:26 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:21:10 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:23:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 05:27:58 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:29:19 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-04-22 05:31:14 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc3:f500:70bf:b6e8:268:3642) aforemny |
| 2025-04-22 05:32:35 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ce3:aa00:a40a:58f0:a79e:fd07) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:39:12 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:39:29 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 05:40:13 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) chiselfuse |
| 2025-04-22 05:46:24 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:55:04 +0200 | sp1ff | (~user@c-67-160-173-55.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) sp1ff |
| 2025-04-22 05:55:44 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 05:58:12 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 06:05:08 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) (Quit: XD!!) |
| 2025-04-22 06:05:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 06:06:01 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.197) |
| 2025-04-22 06:08:33 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu |
| 2025-04-22 06:09:04 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 06:15:21 +0200 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu |
| 2025-04-22 06:19:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 06:24:08 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 06:36:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 06:37:45 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2025-04-22 06:43:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 06:51:44 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@9.sub-174-228-101.myvzw.com) bilegeek |
| 2025-04-22 06:52:00 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-04-22 06:52:07 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@9.sub-174-228-101.myvzw.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 06:53:29 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@9.sub-174-228-101.myvzw.com) bilegeek |
| 2025-04-22 06:53:39 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@9.sub-174-228-101.myvzw.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 06:55:00 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 06:55:53 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@208.sub-174-228-99.myvzw.com) bilegeek |
| 2025-04-22 06:55:53 +0200 | bg2 | (~bg@208.sub-174-228-99.myvzw.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 06:56:59 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) |
| 2025-04-22 06:59:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:00:22 +0200 | jmcantrell | Guest4061 |
| 2025-04-22 07:00:23 +0200 | Guest4061 | (644f1bed9a@user/jmcantrell) (Killed (zirconium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))) |
| 2025-04-22 07:00:23 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | jmcantrell |
| 2025-04-22 07:00:32 +0200 | jmcantrell_ | (644f1bed9a@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-04-22 07:03:04 +0200 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-04-22 07:03:27 +0200 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2025-04-22 07:10:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 07:15:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:28:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 07:29:19 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-04-22 07:29:37 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 07:32:55 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:33:55 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:39:27 +0200 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) prdak |
| 2025-04-22 07:43:48 +0200 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:46:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 07:50:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 07:51:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> monochrom: I mean randomly generated poetry |
| 2025-04-22 07:51:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's been done stateside |
| 2025-04-22 07:52:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://magazine.viterbi.usc.edu/fall-2015/whats-next/password-poetry/ |
| 2025-04-22 07:52:54 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) |
| 2025-04-22 07:52:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it just comes to mind cuz |
| 2025-04-22 07:53:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://bendolnick.substack.com/p/cixin-liu-cloud-of-poems |
| 2025-04-22 07:54:12 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> "earth is conquered by dinosaurs. Then dinosaurs meet even more advanced species, true aliens this time, who take an interest in human poetry and decide to brute force attack the problem of poetry and use the solar system as a storage medium for their generated poems" |
| 2025-04-22 07:54:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> surprisingly, i see a lot of diceware, but not a lot of poetryware, simply because the latter requires NLP chops to generate memorable poems |
| 2025-04-22 07:55:54 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> https://slate.com/technology/2017/07/what-happens-when-an-a-i-program-tries-to-write-poetry.html |
| 2025-04-22 07:55:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> this is better coverage |
| 2025-04-22 07:58:26 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.146.154) |
| 2025-04-22 07:59:34 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:01:55 +0200 | Googulator13 | (~Googulato@94-21-172-228.pool.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-04-22 08:02:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 08:02:50 +0200 | floyza | (~gavin@h69-11-148-150.kndrid.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 08:04:13 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.1) |
| 2025-04-22 08:04:14 +0200 | jmcantrell_ | jmcantrell |
| 2025-04-22 08:05:18 +0200 | Googulator92 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2077-315b-d519-517f-afe7.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:06:48 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:09:13 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen |
| 2025-04-22 08:18:26 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 08:21:20 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:81b9:54c7:add1:2ebe) |
| 2025-04-22 08:25:48 +0200 | Xe | (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:25:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:27:45 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-04-22 08:30:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Is Haskell poetry? |
| 2025-04-22 08:36:15 +0200 | Xe | (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe |
| 2025-04-22 08:36:20 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937 |
| 2025-04-22 08:38:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 08:42:48 +0200 | <Axman6> | sometimes, yes |
| 2025-04-22 08:43:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:44:03 +0200 | <Axman6> | @quote osteele |
| 2025-04-22 08:44:04 +0200 | <lambdabot> | osteele says: Reading Haskell is like reading poetry and writing Haskell is like writing poetry. As opposed to Python and Ruby, which are more prosaic, and Enterprise Java, which is more like a tax |
| 2025-04-22 08:44:04 +0200 | <lambdabot> | form. |
| 2025-04-22 08:45:37 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-04-22 08:47:08 +0200 | <Axman6> | @quote cryomorphobalonical |
| 2025-04-22 08:47:08 +0200 | <lambdabot> | geheimdienst says: We employ a simple implementation of cryomorphobalonical panfunctors as introduced by Axman6 |
| 2025-04-22 08:47:22 +0200 | <Axman6> | I have no recollection of this happening, but I will happily take credit |
| 2025-04-22 08:52:26 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2025-04-22 08:53:36 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 08:55:48 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 08:57:54 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 08:58:58 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 08:59:17 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937 |
| 2025-04-22 08:59:27 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f316158c59a8e92af6a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-04-22 09:00:01 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-04-22 09:00:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:01:19 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-04-22 09:01:43 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-04-22 09:02:13 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:03:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 09:07:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:08:18 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 09:12:57 +0200 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) chele |
| 2025-04-22 09:16:50 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
| 2025-04-22 09:20:52 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2025-04-22 09:21:12 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:22:02 +0200 | Guest55 | (~Guest55@149.115.69.184) |
| 2025-04-22 09:22:14 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
| 2025-04-22 09:22:42 +0200 | emmanuelux | (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir) |
| 2025-04-22 09:23:06 +0200 | Guest55 | potyymouth |
| 2025-04-22 09:24:42 +0200 | <potyymouth> | Hi |
| 2025-04-22 09:25:23 +0200 | <potyymouth> | Is real world Haskell still a good intro text |
| 2025-04-22 09:25:48 +0200 | potyymouth | (~Guest55@149.115.69.184) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 09:26:26 +0200 | Guest55 | (~Guest55@149.115.69.184) |
| 2025-04-22 09:27:36 +0200 | Guest55 | (~Guest55@149.115.69.184) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-04-22 09:28:02 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-04-22 09:28:50 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:30:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> @potyymouth It's a bit outdated, but the beginning especially is basic concepts which are timeless. But the parts about setting it up and some libraries are outdated |
| 2025-04-22 09:30:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/installing-ghc-and-haskell-libraries.html - windows xp screenshots, lol |
| 2025-04-22 09:34:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Ah fuck, they left |
| 2025-04-22 09:37:56 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2025-04-22 09:44:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's probably going to be disturbing the number of people who use type signatures as passwords |
| 2025-04-22 09:45:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> How many Haskell engineers it takes to change a lightbulb? |
| 2025-04-22 09:45:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> foo :: (MonadReader m, MonadRandom m) => m a -> (Int, Int) -> m () |
| 2025-04-22 09:47:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> normalized to without spaces? sounds an interesting idea |
| 2025-04-22 09:47:46 +0200 | dhil | (~dhil@5.151.29.141) dhil |
| 2025-04-22 09:48:13 +0200 | jacopovalanzano | (~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2025-04-22 09:48:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> entropy's too low, i guess, needs more type spaghetti |
| 2025-04-22 09:49:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, question: what's the concrete representation of newtype Foo = MkFoo Foo? |
| 2025-04-22 09:49:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> a thunk of Foo? |
| 2025-04-22 09:52:53 +0200 | dhil | (~dhil@5.151.29.141) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 09:54:25 +0200 | Googulator8 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-093f-283a-6048-db9e-64d7.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-04-22 09:57:42 +0200 | Googulator13 | (~Googulato@94-21-172-228.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 10:00:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2025-04-22 10:12:29 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2025-04-22 10:18:40 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 10:19:07 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) amadaluzia |
| 2025-04-22 10:24:00 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2025-04-22 10:24:31 +0200 | Sciencentistguy | (~sciencent@hacksoc/ordinary-member) (Quit: o/) |
| 2025-04-22 10:27:26 +0200 | mceresa | (~mceresa@user/mceresa) mceresa |
| 2025-04-22 10:31:20 +0200 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080236099.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm |
| 2025-04-22 10:42:41 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.146.154) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 10:47:21 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 10:53:11 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> also, a bit bored |
| 2025-04-22 10:53:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> how would you define a type such that it'd represent impure values that upon evaluation execute a side effect? |
| 2025-04-22 10:54:19 +0200 | ftzm | (~ftzm@085080236099.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2025-04-22 10:54:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> newtype Impure a = Impure (a, IORef (IO ())) |
| 2025-04-22 10:54:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> abstract datatype |
| 2025-04-22 10:56:30 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 10:56:40 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2025-04-22 10:58:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> newImpure a action = Impure $ let effect = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (action >> pure ()) in seq (unsafePerformIO $ unsafePerformIO $ readIORef effect) $ (a, effect) |
| 2025-04-22 10:58:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> still wouldn't work because you'd want to be able to modify the IORef without triggering the value |
| 2025-04-22 10:58:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Liamzee: can also do `newtype Impure a = Impure (IORef (IO a))` |
| 2025-04-22 10:58:45 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> erm, triggering the side effect |
| 2025-04-22 10:58:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | replace the IO a action with `pure x` after evaluation |
| 2025-04-22 10:59:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> that works better! |
| 2025-04-22 10:59:38 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-e14e-a382-6700-16d8.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 10:59:45 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> triggering the effect |
| 2025-04-22 10:59:52 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if you want asynchronous execution: `type Impure = MVar` |
| 2025-04-22 11:00:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | initialise it by forkIO-ing a thread that, upon completion, `putMVar`s the result |
| 2025-04-22 11:00:35 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | getting the result out is readMVar; that blocks if there's nothing in there yet |
| 2025-04-22 11:00:40 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-ad9e-0ba9-a337-5b76.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2025-04-22 11:02:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i guess we're back to the monadic innovation, i.e, imperative programming is a subset of monadic effect programming, but all monadic effect programming is not imperative programming |
| 2025-04-22 11:03:42 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> trying to jam throwing side effects upon evaluation into haskell apparently creates interesting and novel possibilities because it's an emulation based on Haskell's core semantics, so the terms of the emulation can be changed |
| 2025-04-22 11:03:47 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-250c-9766-ad9e-0ba9-a337-5b76.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 11:04:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | you can actually also do this in C, though |
| 2025-04-22 11:04:16 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | just replace `IO a` by a function pointer |
| 2025-04-22 11:04:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | need to allocate the IORef itself on the heap though, so that it keeps a stable address |
| 2025-04-22 11:04:46 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> tomsmeding: the problem is, if a value of t he type is evaluated, the effect encapsulated within should be executed |
| 2025-04-22 11:04:57 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | outside of IO? |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:06 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the IORef is there to provide persistence |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:15 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it sounds like you want to run IO outside of an IO context |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> maybe I don't need the IORef? |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that just sounds like `data Impure a = Impure a` that you initialise using forkIO (unsafePerformIO) |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:42 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's just a thought experiment |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | or not even the forkiO |
| 2025-04-22 11:05:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the 'data' there is relevant because forcing the Impure should not yet force the value, probably |
| 2025-04-22 11:06:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the key feature is that to evaluate the term, seq (unsafePerformIO something) occurs, meaning evaluation results in the effect being thrown |
| 2025-04-22 11:06:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | `data Impure a = Impure a; initialise :: IO a -> Impure a; initialise m = Impure (unsafePerformIO m); read :: Impure a -> a; read (Impure x) = x` |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:09 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | evaluating the result of `read i` will run the IO |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yeah tbh you could just do data |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and then put strictness annotation on the field that's supposed to trigger the effect |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but the result will be cached in the Impure because lazy evaluation |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and leave the effect as a thunk |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | no one needs access to the effect later |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:46 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it's already there in the thunk for the `a` field |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm not sure, am i saying anything interesting? |
| 2025-04-22 11:07:49 +0200 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 11:08:15 +0200 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2025-04-22 11:08:17 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i.e, trying to abuse the thunk system for computing purposes? |
| 2025-04-22 11:08:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> *effect throwing purposes? |
| 2025-04-22 11:08:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that's what my last suggestion does |
| 2025-04-22 11:08:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and then honestly you don't even need the Impure wrwapper |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | an impure `a` is just an `a` that happens to be created using unsafePerformIO |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> but the impure wrapper is equivalent to unsafe |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:26 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> otherwise it doesn't have a warning that you're using unsafePerformIO |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if you make sure the `a` is not in a strict field, then the effect will only be run when you actually demand the result |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:36 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> theoretically you can embed seq (unsafePerformIO foo) into any type |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:42 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | without the seq |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:47 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> or rather pseq |
| 2025-04-22 11:09:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | seq takes two arguments |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> that's intended to be a partially applied function |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:23 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so the effect doesn't actually compute something, it is there _just_ for the side-effect? |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> yeah |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and you want to trigger it by reading a particular field |
| 2025-04-22 11:10:53 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ew |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:03 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> by evaluating the field |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | make sure the effect returns the field in question |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and then do my solution? :p |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I'll just return a bottom ;) |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:44 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ... which will throw an exception upon evaluation? |
| 2025-04-22 11:11:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds counterproductive |
| 2025-04-22 11:12:06 +0200 | jacopovalanzano | (~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 11:12:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm joking, this is just degenerate haskell |
| 2025-04-22 11:12:33 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm just wondering if this degenerate haskell is at all useful or interesting |
| 2025-04-22 11:14:57 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-04-22 11:15:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> it's interesting in some other context. You might want to checkout this thread: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/using-unsafeperformio-safely/4146 |
| 2025-04-22 11:17:29 +0200 | danso | (~danso@user/danso) (Quit: quittin time) |
| 2025-04-22 11:17:39 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 11:22:13 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 11:22:22 +0200 | danso | (~danso@user/danso) danso |
| 2025-04-22 11:32:55 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 11:33:27 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.146.154) |
| 2025-04-22 11:38:38 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 11:56:08 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> sorry, i'm just full of it |
| 2025-04-22 11:56:17 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's just a way to smuggle unsafePerformIo, because that's what it basically is |
| 2025-04-22 11:56:29 +0200 | dhil | (~dhil@5.151.29.137) dhil |
| 2025-04-22 11:57:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> UnsafeImpure |
| 2025-04-22 11:57:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> better off doing it via proper IO, sequence, etc |
| 2025-04-22 12:00:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> if you can make it typesafe, I see a case for a library user to use it. |
| 2025-04-22 12:00:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | I remember in the RSet package, it "smuggles" a unsafePerformanceIO, but the interface and ergonomics of the library outweighs that little dirty secret |
| 2025-04-22 12:00:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rec-def-0.2.2 |
| 2025-04-22 12:03:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> if you were on the wechat, you'd know the user named accursedUnutterablePerformIO |
| 2025-04-22 12:03:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> unsafePerformIO is supposed to mean that the onus of confirming that the action is safe is up to the developer |
| 2025-04-22 12:03:25 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2025-04-22 12:03:46 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> and accursed, that's in the bytestring lib, which disables a ton of safeguards around the normal unsafePerformIO |
| 2025-04-22 12:05:27 +0200 | <davean> | Liamzee: I wouldn't say safeguards persay ... |
| 2025-04-22 12:07:17 +0200 | <davean> | Liamzee: I'd say they're things to make it behave more expectedly, not safeguards. Its about surprise, not safety |
| 2025-04-22 12:11:30 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-001-244.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 12:12:22 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.23.248.47) |
| 2025-04-22 12:16:31 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2025-04-22 12:21:10 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-04-22 12:21:31 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 12:26:09 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2025-04-22 12:26:48 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2025-04-22 12:31:55 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 12:56:44 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2025-04-22 12:57:02 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-04-22 13:00:01 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.146.154) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 13:00:05 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-04-22 13:01:11 +0200 | inca | (~inca@pool-96-255-212-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-04-22 13:02:11 +0200 | jespada | (~jespada@r179-25-8-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) jespada |
| 2025-04-22 13:02:11 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-04-22 13:05:22 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@37.109.146.154) |