| 2025-05-03 00:03:36 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) crns |
| 2025-05-03 00:15:37 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 00:16:04 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 00:19:14 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2025-05-03 00:21:30 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 00:25:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> IMO too many games use C# now, kinda discourages me from modding because I hate C# |
| 2025-05-03 00:25:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> I think Haskell would be nice not for implementation but for scenario scripting |
| 2025-05-03 00:27:18 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> right now most of the more plot heavy games have pretty janky scripts, when you play it's mostly about wrestling with scripting bugs |
| 2025-05-03 00:27:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> kinda breaks immersion |
| 2025-05-03 00:27:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> I bet more abstract language like Haskell could make things more tractable |
| 2025-05-03 00:45:30 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) typedfern |
| 2025-05-03 00:47:28 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 00:49:22 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | loonycyborg, checkout games, gameengine at hackage |
| 2025-05-03 00:49:56 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | and game which i didn think hs had |
| 2025-05-03 00:54:01 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 01:00:37 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-03 01:00:43 +0200 | ljdarj1 | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-05-03 01:04:01 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 01:04:01 +0200 | ljdarj1 | ljdarj |
| 2025-05-03 01:07:03 +0200 | Googulator65 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-03 01:07:20 +0200 | Googulator65 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-05-03 01:08:48 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 01:17:40 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> It has lambdahack, I totally expected nethack-like on haskell to exist :P |
| 2025-05-03 01:29:36 +0200 | traxex | (traxex@user/traxex) traxex |
| 2025-05-03 01:30:33 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 01:31:24 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 01:31:35 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f97b8ab1cde68040873.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 01:34:32 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-05-03 01:35:53 +0200 | Googulator65 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-03 01:39:19 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:ad70:ecef:1fea:272) |
| 2025-05-03 01:45:38 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-05-03 01:48:39 +0200 | ZLima12 | (~zlima12@user/meow/ZLima12) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 01:49:48 +0200 | ZLima12 | (~zlima12@user/meow/ZLima12) ZLima12 |
| 2025-05-03 01:50:40 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-03 02:00:36 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 02:08:33 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:ad70:ecef:1fea:272) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-05-03 02:25:37 +0200 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f0dd100892d07af958b891b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 02:27:27 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
| 2025-05-03 02:36:54 +0200 | tabaqui | (~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 02:37:50 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 02:42:33 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 02:43:16 +0200 | amadaluzia | (~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Quit: Hi, this is Paul Allen. I'm being called away to London for a few days. Meredith, I'll call you when I get back. Hasta la vista, baby.) |
| 2025-05-03 02:44:25 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 02:46:54 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-05-03 02:48:56 +0200 | sajenim | (~sajenim@user/sajenim) sajenim |
| 2025-05-03 03:00:18 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 03:01:56 +0200 | volsand | (~volsand@2804:1b1:1080:da6:b270:c4db:8a27:6d61) (Quit: volsand) |
| 2025-05-03 03:05:04 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 03:07:01 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 03:09:14 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 03:11:34 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)) |
| 2025-05-03 03:14:00 +0200 | ttybitnik | (~ttybitnik@user/wolper) (Quit: Fading out...) |
| 2025-05-03 03:14:12 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 03:22:15 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 03:25:58 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 03:29:37 +0200 | img | (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 03:32:25 +0200 | img | (~img@user/img) img |
| 2025-05-03 03:32:40 +0200 | OftenFaded | (~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) OftenFaded |
| 2025-05-03 03:40:33 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
| 2025-05-03 03:49:06 +0200 | <monochrom> | I'm OK with buggy scripts if they mean Perfectly Balanced with No Exploits so I can get infinite money in the game. >:) |
| 2025-05-03 03:50:19 +0200 | <monochrom> | Sure the game becomes unrealistic. What, do you think I play games to relive reality or to escape reality? >:) |
| 2025-05-03 03:55:38 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 04:01:53 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@150.129.88.189) |
| 2025-05-03 04:01:54 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@150.129.88.189) (Changing host) |
| 2025-05-03 04:01:54 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@user/tavare) tavare |
| 2025-05-03 04:17:44 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 04:17:47 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870923.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 04:18:57 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870919.versanet.de) td_ |
| 2025-05-03 04:19:33 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 04:24:51 +0200 | m15k47on1c | (~m15k47on1@user/m15k47on1c) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8) |
| 2025-05-03 04:32:09 +0200 | dsrt^ | (ceuasyyyl@c-71-199-187-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 04:32:54 +0200 | typedfern_ | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) |
| 2025-05-03 04:33:02 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 04:34:14 +0200 | dsrt^ | (~dsrt@c-71-199-187-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 2025-05-03 04:36:50 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) HarveyPwca |
| 2025-05-03 05:04:18 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 05:07:56 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 05:15:11 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 05:18:50 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 05:23:38 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 05:25:53 +0200 | todi | (~todi@183.96.168.66) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 05:28:17 +0200 | todi | (~todi@p57803331.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) todi |
| 2025-05-03 05:29:57 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) cyphase |
| 2025-05-03 05:33:39 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 05:39:35 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 05:42:52 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 05:59:21 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-05-03 06:15:24 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:17:33 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 06:18:01 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) Buliarous |
| 2025-05-03 06:19:03 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:20:16 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:20:38 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) |
| 2025-05-03 06:24:27 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:24:53 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:27:17 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:27:43 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) |
| 2025-05-03 06:28:10 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:32:54 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:34:39 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 06:36:45 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:41:30 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:47:11 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
| 2025-05-03 06:48:29 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:50:04 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:55:44 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:56:34 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:56:42 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 06:56:53 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:57:01 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@i59F4C605.versanet.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 06:57:16 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@i59F4C605.versanet.de) aforemny |
| 2025-05-03 06:58:33 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:58:53 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 06:59:36 +0200 | Sgeo__ | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2025-05-03 06:59:36 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 06:59:44 +0200 | troydm | (~troydm@user/troydm) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 06:59:53 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 07:00:36 +0200 | la1n2 | (~la1n@176.59.162.120) |
| 2025-05-03 07:01:54 +0200 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:01 +0200 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:09 +0200 | m5zs7k | (aquares@web10.mydevil.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:28 +0200 | m5zs7k_ | (aquares@web10.mydevil.net) m5zs7k |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:29 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:38 +0200 | Sgeo_ | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:02:54 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 07:03:00 +0200 | la1n | (~la1n@176.59.162.120) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:03:00 +0200 | jakesyl_____ | (sid56879@hampstead.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:04:10 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 07:04:50 +0200 | OftenFaded | (~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:05:15 +0200 | jakesyl_____ | (sid56879@id-56879.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2025-05-03 07:06:31 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:88e0:76ff:fe9c:b21e) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 07:06:59 +0200 | OftenFaded | (~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) OftenFaded |
| 2025-05-03 07:07:33 +0200 | winniequinn | (~winniequi@user/winniequinn) winniequinn |
| 2025-05-03 07:09:20 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:88e0:76ff:fe9c:b21e) hgolden |
| 2025-05-03 07:11:57 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 07:12:24 +0200 | troydm | (~troydm@user/troydm) troydm |
| 2025-05-03 07:12:25 +0200 | m5zs7k_ | m5zs7k |
| 2025-05-03 07:23:41 +0200 | talismanick | (~user@2601:644:937c:ed10::ae5) talismanick |
| 2025-05-03 07:31:02 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 07:31:34 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |
| 2025-05-03 07:32:11 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 07:33:12 +0200 | winniequinn | (~winniequi@user/winniequinn) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:35:22 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:35:26 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 07:42:51 +0200 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 07:51:30 +0200 | alt-crns | (~crns@p200300f1171e038329e61908ecaeb223.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2025-05-03 07:53:29 +0200 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) |
| 2025-05-03 07:55:01 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:56:37 +0200 | JamesMowery17 | (~JamesMowe@ip68-228-212-232.ph.ph.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 07:57:32 +0200 | dsrt^ | (~dsrt@c-71-199-187-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 07:58:56 +0200 | peterbecich1 | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 08:00:53 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 08:00:53 +0200 | peterbecich1 | peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 08:07:54 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 08:08:27 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit) |
| 2025-05-03 08:08:43 +0200 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2025-05-03 08:13:46 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 08:16:56 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 08:21:59 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-05-03 08:28:36 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 08:31:31 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 08:32:46 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 08:35:14 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 08:35:26 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2025-05-03 08:49:38 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) |
| 2025-05-03 09:00:04 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-05-03 09:00:42 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-05-03 09:02:58 +0200 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@syn-045-046-170-068.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 09:04:13 +0200 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@syn-045-046-170-068.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2025-05-03 09:04:53 +0200 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 09:07:29 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot |
| 2025-05-03 09:11:46 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 09:14:36 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-03 09:14:53 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-05-03 09:18:54 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76c0b856756af96406.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-05-03 09:19:46 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 09:20:51 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 09:23:24 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 09:25:06 +0200 | Spawns_Carpeting | (~mobile@user/spawns-carpeting/x-6969421) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-03 09:25:16 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2025-05-03 09:27:15 +0200 | Spawns_Carpeting | (~mobile@user/spawns-carpeting/x-6969421) Spawns_Carpeting |
| 2025-05-03 09:52:48 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
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| 2025-05-03 10:01:33 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla |
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| 2025-05-03 10:25:28 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 10:30:42 +0200 | Sgeo__ | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 10:37:16 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-05-03 10:43:52 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76c0b856756af96406.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 2025-05-03 10:48:22 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2025-05-03 10:51:57 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-03 10:52:12 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2025-05-03 10:52:50 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
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| 2025-05-03 11:19:18 +0200 | Googulator77 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-4a24-1dc7-297e-fae3-e794.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
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| 2025-05-03 11:22:58 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f82f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2025-05-03 12:28:34 +0200 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76c0b856756af96406.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
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| 2025-05-03 12:52:30 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 2025-05-03 13:15:46 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 13:16:56 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) HarveyPwca |
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| 2025-05-03 13:55:56 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@user/tavare) tavare |
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| 2025-05-03 14:08:27 +0200 | tavare | (~tavare@150.129.88.189) (Changing host) |
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| 2025-05-03 14:08:37 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) typedfern |
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| 2025-05-03 14:11:59 +0200 | typedfern_ | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 14:18:44 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76915331bd63c5250a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 14:21:19 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) crns |
| 2025-05-03 14:26:34 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2025-05-03 14:27:35 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f760cd6d8a4afbfbdd7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-05-03 14:40:21 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 14:43:17 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 2025-05-03 14:55:08 +0200 | tinjamin4 | (~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2025-05-03 14:59:47 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
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| 2025-05-03 15:11:50 +0200 | AlexNoo_ | (~AlexNoo@5.139.233.9) |
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| 2025-05-03 15:19:33 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-129-007.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 15:19:53 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-129-007.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2025-05-03 15:26:52 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 15:27:15 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) crns |
| 2025-05-03 15:40:18 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000::2) |
| 2025-05-03 15:40:18 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000::2) (Changing host) |
| 2025-05-03 15:40:18 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz |
| 2025-05-03 15:41:13 +0200 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) tremon |
| 2025-05-03 15:41:39 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f760cd6d8a4afbfbdd7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 15:45:09 +0200 | alt-crns | (~crns@185.238.219.101) |
| 2025-05-03 15:45:09 +0200 | crns | (~crns@user/crns) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 15:45:14 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | ColinRobinson |
| 2025-05-03 15:54:40 +0200 | traxex | (traxex@user/traxex) traxex |
| 2025-05-03 15:57:54 +0200 | ColinRobinson | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)) |
| 2025-05-03 16:00:06 +0200 | AlexNoo_ | AlexNoo |
| 2025-05-03 16:00:38 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
| 2025-05-03 16:03:13 +0200 | alt-crns | (~crns@185.238.219.101) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 16:08:44 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2025-05-03 16:09:13 +0200 | m1dnight_ | (~m1dnight@d8D861908.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 16:09:31 +0200 | m1dnight | (~m1dnight@d8D861908.access.telenet.be) m1dnight |
| 2025-05-03 16:33:28 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@135.red-83-37-43.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 16:34:13 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 16:37:29 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) (Quit: tolgo) |
| 2025-05-03 16:46:17 +0200 | Typedfern | (~Typedfern@213.red-83-37-26.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) typedfern |
| 2025-05-03 16:50:38 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) |
| 2025-05-03 16:52:58 +0200 | tabaqui | (~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 17:03:55 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot |
| 2025-05-03 17:23:21 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2025-05-03 17:32:23 +0200 | Rembane | (~Rembane@user/Rembane) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1) |
| 2025-05-03 17:33:08 +0200 | irssi | (~Rembane@user/Rembane) Rembane |
| 2025-05-03 17:33:54 +0200 | irssi | Rembane |
| 2025-05-03 17:35:03 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli) |
| 2025-05-03 17:45:29 +0200 | hiecaq | (~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Quit: ERC 5.6.0.30.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.92)) |
| 2025-05-03 17:48:57 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76fc5d8daab5a27dee.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2025-05-03 17:50:27 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-05-03 17:54:49 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 17:56:26 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
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| 2025-05-03 18:08:57 +0200 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.1) |
| 2025-05-03 18:09:14 +0200 | sajenim | (~sajenim@user/sajenim) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 18:11:57 +0200 | traxex | (traxex@user/traxex) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2025-05-03 18:15:35 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 18:18:10 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 18:23:14 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2025-05-03 18:32:20 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76fc5d8daab5a27dee.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 18:32:21 +0200 | Square3 | (~Square@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 18:32:51 +0200 | emmanuelux | (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux |
| 2025-05-03 18:36:32 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2025-05-03 18:37:34 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2025-05-03 18:41:43 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-03 19:04:22 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 19:04:50 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) Buliarous |
| 2025-05-03 19:07:50 +0200 | ttybitnik | (~ttybitnik@user/wolper) ttybitnik |
| 2025-05-03 19:23:27 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76bcfd7e139b6b957f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-05-03 19:24:32 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2025-05-03 19:31:25 +0200 | <[exa]> | Are there any good approaches to serializable objects (think like aeson-style serialization) where the serialization has to contain "externally resolvable" identifiers? (Typically in databases, the ID should not be a part of object model because it's more of a reference that should be transparent and/or held by others, but has to be present in row operations. Similarly with RDF, haskellish objects |
| 2025-05-03 19:31:27 +0200 | <[exa]> | "exist" without knowing their "name" (URI), byt the name has to be present in all triples that describe the object.) |
| 2025-05-03 19:32:25 +0200 | <[exa]> | Possible complication: objects contain more objects and serialization has to invent sensible identifiers for these. |
| 2025-05-03 19:34:13 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 19:34:37 +0200 | <EvanR> | ID is what makes entities entities and not values, making the rows not redundant (and illegal in relational algebra) duplicates |
| 2025-05-03 19:34:45 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 19:34:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | so not sure if it's not part of the model |
| 2025-05-03 19:35:21 +0200 | <[exa]> | hm good point |
| 2025-05-03 19:35:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | and in that perspective, objects nested inside each other is just one way to view the entities and relations |
| 2025-05-03 19:36:01 +0200 | <EvanR> | instead of the main model |
| 2025-05-03 19:36:29 +0200 | <monochrom> | One can never escape IDs. High-level languages deceive you into thinking that you can, by not telling you that pointers and addresses look like 0xdeadbeef which are totally IDs. |
| 2025-05-03 19:37:55 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: just do combinatory logic |
| 2025-05-03 19:37:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | And especially if your object graph is not a tree, all the more important to use IDs so n objects do not become a tree of 2^n nodes, or even worse, an infinite tree just because there is a cycle. |
| 2025-05-03 19:38:16 +0200 | <int-e> | No ids, just two combinators and application. |
| 2025-05-03 19:38:17 +0200 | <int-e> | :P |
| 2025-05-03 19:38:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh well I guess that's another solution, by having no objects at all! |
| 2025-05-03 19:39:02 +0200 | <int-e> | I escaped identifiers but at what cost! |
| 2025-05-03 19:39:24 +0200 | <[exa]> | monochrom: ofc the IDs are a technical necessity but I thought more of the data model layer. Esp. for RDF when you want the IDs to be somewhat stable and carry some mild meaning |
| 2025-05-03 19:39:34 +0200 | <int-e> | (I'm too weak for combinatory logic; the only way I've ever been able to write combinatory logic programs is using abstraction elimination.) |
| 2025-05-03 19:39:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | "How do I serialize objects?" "Use SKI so it's /dev/null when you deserialize!" |
| 2025-05-03 19:39:50 +0200 | <EvanR> | if the original subject was "a json value" then yeah, you would have to make up artificial and irrelevant IDs to store it in a database |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | unless the database has json support |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:10 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah in practice, one writes in Haskell and compile by MicroHs! |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | but what's the original subject |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:32 +0200 | <int-e> | EvanR: how to troll efficiently by ignoring context? |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:42 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | if it's a document with nested records then maybe it's not "an object" |
| 2025-05-03 19:40:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 2025-05-03 19:41:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh I just define "object = record". :) |
| 2025-05-03 19:41:16 +0200 | <[exa]> | good we're getting somewhere |
| 2025-05-03 19:41:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hell, object = record = data = data structure = ... |
| 2025-05-03 19:41:33 +0200 | <[exa]> | it's not an object, instead it is _____ ? |
| 2025-05-03 19:41:52 +0200 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b01a:5c24:8c91:aa31:8c9:aaf) bilegeek |
| 2025-05-03 19:42:05 +0200 | <[exa]> | I'm literally trying to find the above abstraction that would make the identifiers somewhat manageable |
| 2025-05-03 19:42:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | maybe all your objects actually be expressions (often, they're not) |
| 2025-05-03 19:42:20 +0200 | <EvanR> | like IORefs |
| 2025-05-03 19:43:00 +0200 | <EvanR> | [exa], ID = hash of the value! |
| 2025-05-03 19:43:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | hides |
| 2025-05-03 19:43:26 +0200 | [exa] | ties EvanR in a loop! hash out of that! |
| 2025-05-03 19:43:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | plays the rainbow table card |
| 2025-05-03 19:44:20 +0200 | <[exa]> | it's super effective! |
| 2025-05-03 19:44:44 +0200 | <[exa]> | ok so maybe serialization is not the right thing to even say here |
| 2025-05-03 19:45:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | if it's not objects but just values with nested structure, a classic serialization is lisp expressions |
| 2025-05-03 19:45:27 +0200 | <[exa]> | again with RDF you more like "prove that something exists by finding all its bits in the heap" instead of deserializing per se |
| 2025-05-03 19:45:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | Do you have a scenerio where there are two objects, all their fields have the same value, but you would prefer to call them 2 objects rather than 1 object? This question determines whether you can just hash the values. |
| 2025-05-03 19:46:12 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2025-05-03 19:46:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | Frankly I don't know RDF. |
| 2025-05-03 19:46:29 +0200 | <[exa]> | monochrom: yes (in the future they might differentiate by people attaching stuff to either identifier) |
| 2025-05-03 19:47:12 +0200 | <[exa]> | monochrom: imagine datalog where all facts are `sompredicate(somesubject, someobject).` |
| 2025-05-03 19:47:25 +0200 | <monochrom> | Then you hash (the value and a serial number). |
| 2025-05-03 19:47:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't know datalog. May I think in prolog instead? |
| 2025-05-03 19:48:01 +0200 | <EvanR> | if object = entity, then you need IDs, to name the entity |
| 2025-05-03 19:48:04 +0200 | <[exa]> | yes datalog is prolog without actual computation |
| 2025-05-03 19:48:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | Alternatively if it turns out RDF = prolog but in XML syntax, I can work with that too. >:) |
| 2025-05-03 19:48:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | if you just have a set of unique tuples the tuple itself can be the ID |
| 2025-05-03 19:49:27 +0200 | <[exa]> | EvanR: probably an entity then. I'm not trying to dodge IDs, more like trying to find what name and type the functions that "do it" should be so that I'm preferably separating the objectness and entityness of the things as well as possible. I want to use these things as objects when they get deserialized. |
| 2025-05-03 19:50:14 +0200 | <EvanR> | I'm not sure what use as objects means |
| 2025-05-03 19:52:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | May I use this example? name(mary,"Mary"). name(alice,"Alice"). name(alice2,"Alice"). crush(mary,alice). crush(alice,alice2). crush(alice2,mary). |
| 2025-05-03 19:53:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | "The first soap opera written in datalog." >:) |
| 2025-05-03 19:53:32 +0200 | <[exa]> | EvanR: as a haskell value. |
| 2025-05-03 19:54:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | is a haskell value just a report or view of the database |
| 2025-05-03 19:54:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | an arbitrary report |
| 2025-05-03 19:54:34 +0200 | <[exa]> | yeah it looks like it's gonna be a view |
| 2025-05-03 19:55:30 +0200 | <[exa]> | ok I should certainly go more in the prolog path (query & assert) instead of plain decode&encode |
| 2025-05-03 19:57:04 +0200 | <monochrom> | May I also tempt you into taking a look at the Curry language so you don't even have to use Prolog syntax! (It uses Haskell syntax.) >:) |
| 2025-05-03 20:01:59 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) |
| 2025-05-03 20:07:32 +0200 | <[exa]> | yeah starting to look much more like another prolog reimplementation. |
| 2025-05-03 20:07:49 +0200 | <[exa]> | but this time with blackjack and types |
| 2025-05-03 20:07:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh! Are we just looking at "network databases" such as in the dark ages vs "relational databases" such as in the modern enlightened time? |
| 2025-05-03 20:08:34 +0200 | <[exa]> | not really, this issue is common to both |
| 2025-05-03 20:08:36 +0200 | <monochrom> | (the "network" there just means graph, object graph, so again your vanilla record in which some fields are pointers to other records) |
| 2025-05-03 20:09:20 +0200 | <monochrom> | OK the question of UIDs. |
| 2025-05-03 20:09:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | Well, I would just say "use a Unique monad". |
| 2025-05-03 20:10:28 +0200 | <[exa]> | maybe I'll just need to invent some way to throw this at the library user |
| 2025-05-03 20:10:40 +0200 | <[exa]> | which looks convenient enough |
| 2025-05-03 20:10:56 +0200 | [exa] | pops a brainstorming booster bottle |
| 2025-05-03 20:13:59 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2025-05-03 20:16:27 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f76bcfd7e139b6b957f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 20:17:48 +0200 | <monochrom> | Um, is that code for LSD? >:) |
| 2025-05-03 20:18:06 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh |
| 2025-05-03 20:19:05 +0200 | <[exa]> | monochrom: nah the bottled one is called beer |
| 2025-05-03 20:19:16 +0200 | <[exa]> | :] |
| 2025-05-03 20:27:13 +0200 | <[exa]> | ok well I guess I'm hitting the same wall as ORMs |
| 2025-05-03 20:29:01 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f7604057216e123cf7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-05-03 20:30:31 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 20:31:20 +0200 | <[exa]> | hm, beam hides the references by higher-kinded types, not bad |
| 2025-05-03 20:31:49 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 20:32:53 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 20:34:13 +0200 | <EvanR> | what's the politically correct name for higher kinded types |
| 2025-05-03 20:34:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | higher order types |
| 2025-05-03 20:34:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | ? |
| 2025-05-03 20:36:07 +0200 | <[exa]> | ah I meant the usual HKD |
| 2025-05-03 20:45:10 +0200 | ljdarj1 | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-05-03 20:46:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> What's the Haskell community's guidance on rewriting your libraries? |
| 2025-05-03 20:47:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> I have a library in process, but I feel like, the more I explore the space the more I think my fundamental library architecture is broken (for instance, I think splitting it into a core and callers for API is a good idea now) |
| 2025-05-03 20:47:47 +0200 | <[exa]> | "your" as on one's own or other people's ? |
| 2025-05-03 20:47:53 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> mine |
| 2025-05-03 20:48:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> *in progress |
| 2025-05-03 20:48:41 +0200 | <[exa]> | I'd say follow unix, prototype it first to the working state, then you can trash it constructively, with much less ambiguity |
| 2025-05-03 20:49:25 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 20:49:25 +0200 | ljdarj1 | ljdarj |
| 2025-05-03 20:53:20 +0200 | <monochrom> | [exa]: How does HKT help? Do I have like "data T f = {name :: f String, age :: f Int}"? For now I can't think of what to use for f for references. |
| 2025-05-03 20:54:28 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or should it be "{name :: String, age :: Int, id :: f ()}"? Then I can see what to do with f. |
| 2025-05-03 20:54:36 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 20:54:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or maybe I still don't heh. |
| 2025-05-03 20:55:34 +0200 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i |
| 2025-05-03 20:55:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> thanks |
| 2025-05-03 21:00:03 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-05-03 21:00:42 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-05-03 21:18:04 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 21:18:22 +0200 | <[exa]> | monochrom: at the minimum it gives ways to describe both stuff with all references "resolved" and stuff where things are behind references. And likely many states in between. |
| 2025-05-03 21:18:39 +0200 | <[exa]> | but yeah more like I'm doing it wrong |
| 2025-05-03 21:19:13 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 21:20:05 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-03 21:20:33 +0200 | <[exa]> | Liamzee: and yeah with the prototype it doesn't really matter if it's super broken or not. :D |
| 2025-05-03 21:21:00 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-05-03 21:21:01 +0200 | j1n37- | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-03 21:21:36 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 21:22:54 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-05-03 21:25:02 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31c9:5f27:18bf:4d4e) |
| 2025-05-03 21:28:33 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 21:28:35 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 21:30:27 +0200 | __jmcantrell__ | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-05-03 21:32:06 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-05-03 21:35:27 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-129-007.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 21:36:24 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-010-081.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2025-05-03 21:39:01 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-010-081.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 21:39:21 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17f82f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-05-03 21:53:56 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2025-05-03 21:54:14 +0200 | la1n2 | (~la1n@176.59.162.120) |
| 2025-05-03 21:57:03 +0200 | la1n2 | (~la1n@176.59.162.120) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-03 22:00:58 +0200 | r-sta | (~r-sta@206-122-61-5.reverse.tnp.net.uk) |
| 2025-05-03 22:00:58 +0200 | <r-sta> | im trying to read this https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0281-visible-forall.rst |
| 2025-05-03 22:01:02 +0200 | <r-sta> | it mentions foreach |
| 2025-05-03 22:01:08 +0200 | <r-sta> | i have never seen this before |
| 2025-05-03 22:01:18 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 22:01:23 +0200 | <r-sta> | eg. foreach a -> ty |
| 2025-05-03 22:01:36 +0200 | <r-sta> | (i also dont understand what the arrow is doing there) |
| 2025-05-03 22:02:24 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2025-05-03 22:04:08 +0200 | <r-sta> | "visible dependent quantification" |
| 2025-05-03 22:05:08 +0200 | <int-e> | https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0378-dependent-type-design.rs… says "The forall vs foreach part governs erasure: foralls are erased, while foreachs are retained." |
| 2025-05-03 22:05:34 +0200 | <r-sta> | like you have to specify the type... |
| 2025-05-03 22:05:39 +0200 | <r-sta> | int-e: ok cool thanks |
| 2025-05-03 22:05:42 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 22:06:44 +0200 | <r-sta> | type erasure is what means we dont need types at runtime right? |
| 2025-05-03 22:07:12 +0200 | <r-sta> | i had like a flippy thing for trading, it had 3 states up down flat, but i couldnt make a class with the singletons appearing at the output |
| 2025-05-03 22:07:13 +0200 | <int-e> | yes |
| 2025-05-03 22:07:39 +0200 | <r-sta> | i had to erase them. like, it would return up or down from flat, but these couldnt have different type annotations |
| 2025-05-03 22:07:59 +0200 | <r-sta> | ie i could return Vertex, but not Vertex Down |
| 2025-05-03 22:08:10 +0200 | <hellwolf> | what does visibility mean here? since you can also use type variables without vdq? |
| 2025-05-03 22:08:13 +0200 | <r-sta> | because i couldnt infer from the types |
| 2025-05-03 22:08:20 +0200 | <r-sta> | what the dependent outcome would be |
| 2025-05-03 22:08:44 +0200 | <r-sta> | hellwolf: type PVis :: forall k -> k -> Type -- visible quantification of 'k' |
| 2025-05-03 22:09:00 +0200 | <r-sta> | type TInv = PInv 15 -- infer (k~Nat) from (a::k)~(15::Nat) |
| 2025-05-03 22:09:00 +0200 | <r-sta> | type TVis = PVis Nat 15 -- no inference |
| 2025-05-03 22:09:08 +0200 | <r-sta> | you specify Nat as an argument |
| 2025-05-03 22:09:24 +0200 | <r-sta> | rather than expecting it to work "for all" types, i guess.... |
| 2025-05-03 22:10:06 +0200 | <int-e> | hellwolf: "We call a quantifier visible when the parameter must be specified at use sites, and invisible when the compiler tries to infer it at use sites." (So it's related to TypeApplications but different) |
| 2025-05-03 22:10:10 +0200 | <r-sta> | int-e: does the new syntax allow that i can return differently annotated types depending on runtime behaviour? |
| 2025-05-03 22:10:19 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2025-05-03 22:11:19 +0200 | <int-e> | r-sta: I don't think so; you'll still have to use the Church trick for that, expressing an existential as (for(all|each) a -> r) -> r |
| 2025-05-03 22:11:19 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-03 22:11:24 +0200 | <hellwolf> | int-e: thanks, that makes sense.I guess, sometimes AllowAmbiguousTypes forces to specify too if not enough injectivity around :p But that's besides the point. |
| 2025-05-03 22:11:34 +0200 | hammond | (proscan@gateway04.insomnia247.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 22:12:01 +0200 | <int-e> | Note that I'm not really aware of what these proposals are. I'm just pretty good at skimming on demand :P |
| 2025-05-03 22:12:11 +0200 | <r-sta> | im still not used to these visible quantifiers, especially in a continuation like that |
| 2025-05-03 22:12:33 +0200 | erdem | (~null@user/erdem) erdem |
| 2025-05-03 22:12:36 +0200 | <hellwolf> | is the proposal still being worked on? |
| 2025-05-03 22:13:02 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I still think Haskell should slowly but surely add these ... despite many push backs |
| 2025-05-03 22:14:48 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) cyphase |
| 2025-05-03 22:14:59 +0200 | <r-sta> | yeah it was accepted in 9.12 thats why im reading it |
| 2025-05-03 22:15:29 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I can use in 9.12? |
| 2025-05-03 22:15:49 +0200 | <hellwolf> | which ones, I have used visible forall only |
| 2025-05-03 22:16:02 +0200 | <r-sta> | errrr... idk which proposal is implemented, it might have just liked the dependant proposal for reference, i have too many new tabs open sorry |
| 2025-05-03 22:16:45 +0200 | <r-sta> | "Visible forall in types of terms, and types in terms" |
| 2025-05-03 22:16:53 +0200 | <r-sta> | https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0281-visible-forall.rst |
| 2025-05-03 22:18:01 +0200 | <r-sta> | its weird because even "arguments" (type level sytax at term level!!! :-/) |
| 2025-05-03 22:18:03 +0200 | <r-sta> | mySizeOf :: forall a -> Sized a => Int |
| 2025-05-03 22:18:03 +0200 | <r-sta> | mySizeOf a = sizeOf a |
| 2025-05-03 22:18:33 +0200 | <hellwolf> | it's nice to use. |
| 2025-05-03 22:18:38 +0200 | <r-sta> | that appear on the lhs of the constraint arrow, are just treated as arguments as if they were specified on the rhs of the constraint arrow |
| 2025-05-03 22:19:08 +0200 | <r-sta> | idk, i was ok with @ |
| 2025-05-03 22:19:44 +0200 | <hellwolf> | it reminded me to add to TODO to remove SNat usage in places I could. |
| 2025-05-03 22:19:49 +0200 | <r-sta> | type applications is good, not sure if i like dependant types in haskell, i found idris unusable |
| 2025-05-03 22:20:27 +0200 | <r-sta> | like, how does it even make sense, if i could choose to output a different type depending on runtime conditions |
| 2025-05-03 22:20:32 +0200 | <hellwolf> | if you use Nat/SNat, which I find very useful, that's already a tiny bit of DT. |
| 2025-05-03 22:20:36 +0200 | <r-sta> | sounds like python... |
| 2025-05-03 22:20:46 +0200 | <r-sta> | nah, singletons im fine with |
| 2025-05-03 22:20:54 +0200 | <hellwolf> | no, that's not how it works. Need some inspirational example I guess. |
| 2025-05-03 22:21:24 +0200 | <r-sta> | hmm, like if my trader flips between up flat and down |
| 2025-05-03 22:21:33 +0200 | <r-sta> | and there is a Vertex UP |
| 2025-05-03 22:21:47 +0200 | <r-sta> | like Vertex :: MarketMode -> Type |
| 2025-05-03 22:21:56 +0200 | <hellwolf> | when bridging with runtime, you just provide some witness to the otherwise already type checked DT code. |
| 2025-05-03 22:21:56 +0200 | <hellwolf> | Not sure if I am explaining it well. I kept it brief. |
| 2025-05-03 22:22:59 +0200 | <r-sta> | i have like, flipFromFlat) :: Vertex Flat -> (Vertex Up || Vertex Down) |
| 2025-05-03 22:23:12 +0200 | <r-sta> | if you can forgive the use of || at type level with that meaning |
| 2025-05-03 22:23:39 +0200 | <r-sta> | i have to just use Vertex :: Type |
| 2025-05-03 22:23:51 +0200 | <r-sta> | ie im made to do the erasure myself! |
| 2025-05-03 22:24:14 +0200 | <r-sta> | ("no types at runtime!! or else!! do you want this to compile or not!?) |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:19 +0200 | <r-sta> | sheesh, ill just check in in *another* few years to check the status of all this. |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:21 +0200 | <r-sta> | cioa! |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:24 +0200 | r-sta | (~r-sta@206-122-61-5.reverse.tnp.net.uk) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:44 +0200 | <hellwolf> | DT induced rage quite |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:47 +0200 | <hellwolf> | *quit |
| 2025-05-03 22:25:54 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2025-05-03 22:26:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | fundamental activities possible with dependent types won't be different |
| 2025-05-03 22:26:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | maybe education will improve though |
| 2025-05-03 22:29:46 +0200 | P1RATEZ | (piratez@user/p1ratez) P1RATEZ |
| 2025-05-03 22:30:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> I think it's better just to embrace this separation between term-level and type-level |
| 2025-05-03 22:30:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> and treat them like two different sublanguages working in concert :P |
| 2025-05-03 22:30:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | with a lot of overlap |
| 2025-05-03 22:30:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | People don't speak like "f :: X -> Either Foo Bar makes no sense because type erasure, this is Python again". |
| 2025-05-03 22:31:03 +0200 | <EvanR> | like a weak form of C where all these typed functions are exactly the same except for the type, because they don't have polymorphism |
| 2025-05-03 22:31:50 +0200 | <monochrom> | Then they speak like "f :: X -> Sigma b:bool. F b, where F False = Foo, F True = Bar, makes no sense because type erase, this is Python again". But it's isomorphic to the Either version. |
| 2025-05-03 22:34:44 +0200 | rachelambda8 | (~rachelamb@cust-95-80-25-71.csbnet.se) (Quit: β reduced) |
| 2025-05-03 22:34:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | Really, "g :: IO (Sigma n:Nat . Vec n Foo)" is no different. If n is unknown until runtime and performing I/O, of course it can't be erased. |
| 2025-05-03 22:35:01 +0200 | rachelambda8 | (~rachelamb@cust-95-80-25-71.csbnet.se) |
| 2025-05-03 22:35:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | works in C xD |
| 2025-05-03 22:35:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | n is unknown until runtime, but is erased |
| 2025-05-03 22:35:40 +0200 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 2025-05-03 22:38:48 +0200 | <int-e> | . o O ( IO (forall r. (forall n. KnownNat n => Vec n Foo -> r) -> r) ) |
| 2025-05-03 22:39:05 +0200 | <geekosaur> | is this a follow-up to conal's "C is a FP language"? |
| 2025-05-03 22:39:11 +0200 | <int-e> | (n is erased, but the KnownNat dictionary isn't, problem solved) |
| 2025-05-03 22:39:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah if someone scaremongers about existential types, my next move is to cite the double ->r version. |
| 2025-05-03 22:40:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah also "negate :: Num a => a -> a, is the type erased or not? Are you cheating?" |
| 2025-05-03 22:40:47 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> C can be like haskell if you write program in one single expression :P |
| 2025-05-03 22:40:51 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: The Church is always happy to step in in moments of an existential crisis. |
| 2025-05-03 22:41:00 +0200 | <monochrom> | No, geekosaur, this is me whining about people whining about dependent typing. |
| 2025-05-03 22:41:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | hahaha that's great |
| 2025-05-03 22:41:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | loonycyborg: such as (++x) + (x++) |
| 2025-05-03 22:41:20 +0200 | <geekosaur> | that isn't the whine I most often see, tbh |
| 2025-05-03 22:41:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | make that a subtraction |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it's some form of "nobody needs DT" (or the lesser version, which I actually sympathize with: "(fake-)DT is usually used gratuitously") |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> well this example doesn't make haskell look good in comparision |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> haskell doesn't even support proper postfix/prefix operators |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:23 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | the haskell version would use imprecise exceptions |
| 2025-05-03 22:42:50 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2025-05-03 22:43:23 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> like that ghc extension forces you to use () for them to work |
| 2025-05-03 22:43:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | before throwing dependent types under the bus, better make sure what is what isn't python |
| 2025-05-03 22:43:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh I write like this all the time: "int bst_height(const bst *t) { return t == NULL ? 0 : t->height ; }" |
| 2025-05-03 22:50:09 +0200 | <monochrom> | Furthermore, I forget the "return" there all the time, so I routinely run into "why does it return a random number?" |
| 2025-05-03 22:50:59 +0200 | <geekosaur> | 🙂 |
| 2025-05-03 22:51:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | you get a warning "what do you think this is, ruby?" |
| 2025-05-03 22:51:26 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (or perl) |
| 2025-05-03 22:53:41 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-03 23:02:52 +0200 | <hellwolf> | return or pure or retval... endless discussion, when deciding what to offer to your users using Haskell embeded language |
| 2025-05-03 23:03:11 +0200 | <hellwolf> | return is incorrect, pure sounds mystic, retval sounds from 1960s |
| 2025-05-03 23:04:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> I like mystic vibes :P |
| 2025-05-03 23:05:18 +0200 | la1n2 | (~la1n@176.59.166.253) |
| 2025-05-03 23:05:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | pure it is |
| 2025-05-03 23:05:55 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I remember when I was learning C++, I had very low English proficiency |
| 2025-05-03 23:06:03 +0200 | <hellwolf> | "imbue" confused the hell out of me |
| 2025-05-03 23:06:16 +0200 | <hellwolf> | is that even a word. |
| 2025-05-03 23:06:36 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 23:06:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | yeah it is |
| 2025-05-03 23:08:15 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I think it's a good candidate for IO monad at least |
| 2025-05-03 23:08:30 +0200 | <hellwolf> | imbue |
| 2025-05-03 23:08:41 +0200 | <int-e> | . o O ( Somebody never played Diablo ) |
| 2025-05-03 23:09:08 +0200 | <hellwolf> | at the time of diablo, I wouldn't follow english conversation much :D |
| 2025-05-03 23:09:16 +0200 | <int-e> | (Charsi in Diablo II was my first encounter with the word "imbue") |
| 2025-05-03 23:09:52 +0200 | <hellwolf> | so, that might start to make sense, someone from C++ committee played too much Diablo. |
| 2025-05-03 23:10:00 +0200 | TMA | (tma@twin.jikos.cz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-05-03 23:10:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 2025-05-03 23:11:18 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2025-05-03 23:11:57 +0200 | TMA | (tma@twin.jikos.cz) TMA |
| 2025-05-03 23:15:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> guess the meaning of the operators of the day: <$$> <$>> <&&> <<&> |
| 2025-05-03 23:15:24 +0200 | <monochrom> | Lisp/Scheme's call/cc is my first encounter with "continuation". :) |
| 2025-05-03 23:16:07 +0200 | <monochrom> | I will guess <&&> = liftA2 (&&). I won't guess the others, there is no point. |
| 2025-05-03 23:17:31 +0200 | <monochrom> | To be sure, my heuristic fails with <*> = liftA2 (*) :) |
| 2025-05-03 23:18:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | and <$> = liftA2 ($). Who would have thought. :) |
| 2025-05-03 23:19:12 +0200 | <EvanR> | if you lift a ( really fast it becomes a < |
| 2025-05-03 23:19:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | you'll have to rotate the monitor 90 degrees like old smiley :) |
| 2025-05-03 23:19:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> $$ && for functors of two different categories |
| 2025-05-03 23:19:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | single $ or & are aliases of them for single category, sometimes helpful to type inference, direction of the >> is a convenient way to say where the function is. |
| 2025-05-03 23:19:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I was devastated that I couldn't use <$_> |
| 2025-05-03 23:20:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | there's too many different operators. Somebody should make an overloading mechanism so you can just use 1 |
| 2025-05-03 23:20:42 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> whitespace programming language? |
| 2025-05-03 23:20:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> overloaded whitespaces |
| 2025-05-03 23:20:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | overloaded whitespace is something else |
| 2025-05-03 23:24:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> there's already an overloading mechanism. It's called typeclasses |
| 2025-05-03 23:26:52 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> for example you can already use <> for many seemingly unrelated things :P |
| 2025-05-03 23:28:07 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2025-05-03 23:28:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | that was the joke |
| 2025-05-03 23:32:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Is multiparameter type class avoided in base/core libraries deliberately? |
| 2025-05-03 23:33:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> btw in C++ you can overload "," :P |
| 2025-05-03 23:33:52 +0200 | <monochrom> | EvanR: Is that a physics joke? Lifting ( really fast leading to < because sonic boom? :) I mean :> |
| 2025-05-03 23:34:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> probably overloading spaces will be in C++50 |