IRCBrowse

2026/05/22

2026-05-22 00:12:18 +0000TwinAdam(~TwinAdam@user/adamsaunders) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in)
2026-05-22 00:18:59 +0000TwinAdam(~TwinAdam@user/adamsaunders) adamsaunders
2026-05-22 00:36:55 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2026-05-22 00:46:52 +0000troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) troojg
2026-05-22 01:01:23 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 01:06:15 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2026-05-22 01:27:14 +0000vetkat(~vetkat@user/vetkat) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2026-05-22 01:27:36 +0000vetkat(~vetkat@user/vetkat) vetkat
2026-05-22 01:35:29 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
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2026-05-22 01:42:58 +0000ftzm(~ftzm@085080242199.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm
2026-05-22 01:46:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
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2026-05-22 02:02:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
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2026-05-22 02:04:36 +0000rabbull7(~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch)
2026-05-22 02:05:41 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) notzmv
2026-05-22 02:08:36 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-22 02:14:42 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2026-05-22 02:20:09 +0000troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-22 02:29:54 +0000sefidel(~sefidel@user/sefidel) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 02:36:14 +0000r4bbyte(~user@2601:404:ce04:9df0::57d4)
2026-05-22 02:40:56 +0000 <r4bbyte> Hi, I haven't quite decided to pick up the language yet and wanted to ask about how good the tooling / libraries were. I spent a bit of time with CL, and was a bit disappointed in the lack of proper libraries (and good package management) for most common applications. I am really looking for more of a general purpose language that I can use in nearly any scenario without too many sacrifices, and wanted to get advice on how Haskell
2026-05-22 02:40:56 +0000 <r4bbyte> performed in that regard.
2026-05-22 02:49:39 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2026-05-22 02:50:41 +0000 <davean> it the System/38 langauge from .... 50 years ago? We're being trolled.
2026-05-22 02:51:13 +0000 <r4bbyte> Sorry?
2026-05-22 02:52:02 +0000Katarushisu62(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net)
2026-05-22 02:54:10 +0000Katarushisu6(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-05-22 02:54:11 +0000Katarushisu62Katarushisu6
2026-05-22 02:56:23 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:c96:6fe3:6c1d:2729)
2026-05-22 02:56:35 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:c96:6fe3:6c1d:2729) (Client Quit)
2026-05-22 02:58:46 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2026-05-22 02:59:40 +0000 <EvanR> CL = common lisp right
2026-05-22 03:00:06 +0000 <monochrom> Why don't I troll too! Define "most common applications".
2026-05-22 03:00:37 +0000 <monochrom> I have seen two people disagreeing on what that includes and excludes.
2026-05-22 03:01:10 +0000 <EvanR> haskell has trouble running on 8bit microcontrollers so
2026-05-22 03:01:22 +0000 <r4bbyte> Yeah, common lisp
2026-05-22 03:02:12 +0000 <EvanR> default build system and packaging is cabal. Package management is through hackage. It works
2026-05-22 03:03:26 +0000 <EvanR> if bindings don't exist to the non haskell library of your choice you can use the FFI yourself to make it so
2026-05-22 03:03:58 +0000 <EvanR> this is how I managed to get a cocoa GUI for my haskell app back in the day
2026-05-22 03:04:18 +0000 <r4bbyte> I apologize if it comes off that I'm being dishonest in any way, I have little experience with FP but I'm looking to gain some
2026-05-22 03:05:06 +0000 <r4bbyte> CL just had me running into roadblock after roadblock with unmaintained libraries with poor documentation
2026-05-22 03:06:15 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2026-05-22 03:06:29 +0000 <r4bbyte> I've heard Haskell is a pretty large investment, at least time wise, so I wanted to ask if the situation was much better before I pushed myself too hard
2026-05-22 03:06:32 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-05-22 03:06:57 +0000 <EvanR> it depends if you had any previous experience with functional style
2026-05-22 03:07:57 +0000 <EvanR> e.g. lisp at least emphasizes functions with little to no side effects and leveraging data instead of just algorithms
2026-05-22 03:08:10 +0000 <monochrom> You can hop over to https://hackage.haskell.org/ to see what libraries the community has and doesn't have.
2026-05-22 03:08:11 +0000 <EvanR> so you don't have to learn that
2026-05-22 03:08:52 +0000 <EvanR> you get a head start into the specifically haskell stuff like lazy evaluation
2026-05-22 03:09:09 +0000 <monochrom> Like I said I don't know what the hell "common" means.
2026-05-22 03:10:10 +0000 <r4bbyte> I have experience with (trying) to write purely functional lisp
2026-05-22 03:10:55 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 03:11:17 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2026-05-22 03:11:23 +0000 <x9> lisp is call by value haskell is call by name
2026-05-22 03:11:36 +0000 <EvanR> uhg
2026-05-22 03:11:51 +0000 <EvanR> eager evaluation, lazy evaluation
2026-05-22 03:12:27 +0000 <EvanR> the give the same results unless there is non-termination
2026-05-22 03:12:42 +0000 <EvanR> but have different performance
2026-05-22 03:12:58 +0000 <x9> also the thing about lisp is that lisp you can remember in your head as for the whole interpreter, to write on paper as for the whole interpreter etc. haskell is more like excellent engineering for real world usage, where you can always copy ghc from online, but which is too big to ever make yourself.
2026-05-22 03:13:37 +0000 <EvanR> fits on a napkin means it's a good esolang, not necessarily "good"
2026-05-22 03:13:43 +0000 <r4bbyte> lol
2026-05-22 03:14:40 +0000 <r4bbyte> i think lisp has a lot of interesting things (homoiconicity & macros) cl can get very, very ugly very quickly
2026-05-22 03:14:57 +0000 <x9> mathematically fits on a napkin means you can reproduce the automata easier
2026-05-22 03:15:08 +0000 <r4bbyte> i just want something elegant
2026-05-22 03:15:13 +0000 <EvanR> the napkin version doesn't actually let you write real programs
2026-05-22 03:15:14 +0000 <x9> hence to mutate it easier etc.
2026-05-22 03:15:52 +0000 <x9> i think haskell is a beautiful giant for enterprise and yes the actual programs
2026-05-22 03:15:59 +0000 <x9> that need to run with assurance and such
2026-05-22 03:16:23 +0000 <x9> lol what vagueness
2026-05-22 03:16:50 +0000 <EvanR> once you get into it you can generate many napkin sized languages with haskell, e.g. simply typed lambda calculus, if you want
2026-05-22 03:17:09 +0000 <EvanR> minimal dependently typed lambda calculus
2026-05-22 03:17:14 +0000 <davean> Oh I'm not familiar with people refering to common lisp as "CL" I guess its because no one I know says it enough to abreviate :)
2026-05-22 03:17:37 +0000 <monochrom> Common Lisp has so many special forms that the point of barebone Lisp being just 3 simple rules is moot. Without the special forms, you don't even have if-then-else.
2026-05-22 03:17:55 +0000 <r4bbyte> i agree
2026-05-22 03:18:45 +0000 <EvanR> variable, lambda form, application
2026-05-22 03:18:54 +0000 <monochrom> In contrast, if Haskell did not give you an if-then-else, you could have written your own because lazy evaluation makes it work. That's when the point "the core language is simple" is relevant.
2026-05-22 03:19:20 +0000 <r4bbyte> on mutating programs, while i was looking into this, i actually did see a "napkin" version of lisps prefix notation implemented for genetic programming in haskell
2026-05-22 03:19:30 +0000 <EvanR> haha yeah call/cc is a thing you can just write in haskell
2026-05-22 03:19:35 +0000 <EvanR> if you want that
2026-05-22 03:20:08 +0000 <EvanR> (you probably don't)
2026-05-22 03:20:21 +0000 <monochrom> As far as barebone languages not meant to be practical are concerned, IMO System F is better than barebone Lisp.
2026-05-22 03:21:36 +0000undermine(~user@user/undermine) (Quit: Bye)
2026-05-22 03:21:37 +0000Wanderer(~wanderer@user/wanderer) (Quit: goodbye)
2026-05-22 03:21:39 +0000 <r4bbyte> the thing that makes cl impractical for me was this experience i had trying to write a basic text editor
2026-05-22 03:21:49 +0000 <r4bbyte> getting the terminal in raw mode was
2026-05-22 03:21:51 +0000 <r4bbyte> not fun
2026-05-22 03:22:04 +0000 <monochrom> I once taught students both call/cc and shift/reset. Students asked "why did call/cc even exist? shift/reset is better". I had to answer "call/cc was invented first. as usual, the first ideas were not the best ideas in retrospect. Progress!"
2026-05-22 03:24:30 +0000Wanderer(~wanderer@user/wanderer) Wanderer
2026-05-22 03:24:47 +0000 <monochrom> BTW I am also planning to teach Dhall! Because it's System F. :)
2026-05-22 03:25:20 +0000 <EvanR> we have a couple libraries for abusing terminals for apps: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vty https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal
2026-05-22 03:25:34 +0000 <EvanR> also some game libraries built on those
2026-05-22 03:26:15 +0000 <EvanR> it seems most haskell gaming has historically been terminal based
2026-05-22 03:26:51 +0000 <r4bbyte> lmao
2026-05-22 03:27:41 +0000fgarcia(~lei@user/fgarcia) fgarcia
2026-05-22 03:30:32 +0000 <EvanR> these libraries are nice for gluing your app to the outside world where world happens to be a terminal. But not the greatest demonstration of FP concepts
2026-05-22 03:31:15 +0000 <EvanR> diagrams on the other hand https://diagrams.github.io/gallery.html
2026-05-22 03:32:32 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-22 03:33:53 +0000 <EvanR> I see some of these diagram programs can be greatly simplified for spectator purposes
2026-05-22 03:34:24 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte
2026-05-22 03:37:53 +0000x9(~x9@91-157-105-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-05-22 03:47:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 03:51:31 +0000res0nat0r0844909(~Fletch@falcon.whatbox.ca) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-05-22 03:52:42 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-22 04:07:24 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 04:11:27 +0000sprout(~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-22 04:14:30 +0000 <r4bbyte> what editors / ides do you guys use for haskell?
2026-05-22 04:18:43 +0000 <sm> vs code and the Haskell extension
2026-05-22 04:23:13 +0000 <jackdk> GNU Emacs, haskell-mode for syntax highlighting, dante for ghci auto-loading. There are probably more modern setups with LSP integration etc that I haven't had time to explore.
2026-05-22 04:26:24 +0000 <r4bbyte> i'm actually on erc right now, i haven't played much with lsp stuff
2026-05-22 04:27:41 +0000poscat0x04(~poscat@user/poscat) poscat
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2026-05-22 04:29:35 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 04:30:00 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
2026-05-22 04:35:32 +0000Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
2026-05-22 04:35:38 +0000 <Inst> is it okay if I ask about project scopes and timetables?
2026-05-22 04:35:55 +0000 <Inst> because, my alternative is to ask DeepSeek / Kimi / Gemini / Claude, and ummm, lol
2026-05-22 04:37:23 +0000 <Inst> Like, for instance, I wired up a custom authn authz over Supabase, using Twain, Servant, Postgresql-Simple, and Hasql
2026-05-22 04:37:33 +0000 <Inst> opaque token, has an OIDC endpoint that partially works
2026-05-22 04:37:44 +0000 <Inst> 6 weeks, is that reasonable? Or mostly reflective of my inexperience?
2026-05-22 04:38:05 +0000 <Inst> It needs refactoring to provide a unified schema and endpoint setup
2026-05-22 04:38:39 +0000 <Inst> I'm now thinking about, first, providing a Discord - Telegram - Webclient mirror (using a simplified and vibecoded Next.js frontend, but locked down on hand-built Haskell backend)
2026-05-22 04:39:00 +0000 <Inst> I need a custom dossier system that's suitable for HR and human development
2026-05-22 04:39:08 +0000euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
2026-05-22 04:39:27 +0000 <Inst> as well as a scheduling and coordination system that can track user activity, allows invites, and event generation
2026-05-22 04:39:46 +0000 <Inst> What kind of time budget can I expect for this?
2026-05-22 04:45:06 +0000r4bbyte(~user@2601:404:ce04:9df0::57d4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 04:48:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 04:52:15 +0000sprout(~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) sprout
2026-05-22 04:53:30 +0000fgarcia(~lei@user/fgarcia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 04:54:29 +0000 <Inline> 6*AI^2
2026-05-22 04:54:38 +0000 <Inline> lol
2026-05-22 04:55:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 04:55:37 +0000 <Inst> In actuality, I'm discovering I need to hand refactor the AI codebase anyways
2026-05-22 04:55:51 +0000 <Inst> I need centralized libs, simplified route.ts files, etc
2026-05-22 04:56:01 +0000 <Inst> I don't know frontend, and I have someone hired to help me with the frontend
2026-05-22 04:56:09 +0000 <sm> Inst what's your situation ? Are you doing this as employee, business owner, hobbyist ?
2026-05-22 04:56:15 +0000 <Inst> hobbyist
2026-05-22 04:56:22 +0000 <Inst> i'm building a guild website and a gaming guild
2026-05-22 04:56:27 +0000 <Inst> as a customer acquisition front for a start-up
2026-05-22 04:56:32 +0000 <sm> then it takes as long as it takes, right ? try and you'll find out
2026-05-22 04:56:39 +0000 <sm> we sure don't know :)
2026-05-22 04:56:51 +0000 <Inst> wish i had a budget for you, SM
2026-05-22 04:57:11 +0000 <Inst> you know what you're doing, I'm hiring people who are probably hiding the fact that this is their first Haskell project
2026-05-22 04:57:15 +0000 <sm> especially in the new AIge... timetables are crazy now
2026-05-22 04:57:36 +0000 <Inst> it's just terrible for me because I think up features way faster than I can implement
2026-05-22 04:57:41 +0000 <Inst> took me a week to get the OIDC spoofer up
2026-05-22 04:57:51 +0000 <Inst> 3 weeks for the Authn / Authz
2026-05-22 04:57:54 +0000 <sm> I don't want to advocate AI use, but that's exactly where people are having success with it
2026-05-22 04:58:37 +0000 <Inst> AI project management is giving me ridiculous timetables, albeit I end up estimating completion within 48 hours that usually turns into 168
2026-05-22 04:59:27 +0000 <sm> maybe you need to refine your techniques a little more ? read how successful folks are managing it ?
2026-05-22 04:59:43 +0000 <Inst> ya
2026-05-22 04:59:57 +0000 <sm> I imagine estimating is still going to be hard and usually longer than you think, it always is
2026-05-22 05:00:02 +0000 <Inst> i honestly have no interest in writing servant servers 49382 times to get good at it, the point i'm interested in right now is rapid library pickup
2026-05-22 05:00:14 +0000 <Inst> second derivative skills are what's repeatable
2026-05-22 05:00:14 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.221)
2026-05-22 05:00:18 +0000res0nat0r0844909(~Fletch@falcon.whatbox.ca)
2026-05-22 05:00:50 +0000 <Inst> I have Parkinson's Law for estimates, if I don't make them aggressive, I waste time, but if I do make them aggressive, I miss targets.
2026-05-22 05:01:12 +0000 <sm> what if you reduce scope, estimate and work on smaller chunks
2026-05-22 05:02:17 +0000 <Inst> I mean I'm already working at the minimum scope
2026-05-22 05:02:24 +0000 <sm> you're not
2026-05-22 05:02:24 +0000 <Inst> I've already decided to plug in off the shelf software for this
2026-05-22 05:02:36 +0000 <sm> you can always reduce scope
2026-05-22 05:02:37 +0000 <Inst> as placeholders
2026-05-22 05:03:30 +0000 <sm> I used to work with the founder of Heroku, a very good programmer, and he was a master at dynamically downsizing his goal in real time until it became easy
2026-05-22 05:04:04 +0000 <Inst> hmmmm
2026-05-22 05:04:12 +0000 <Inst> the problem is, I have a mindset of prototype then iterate
2026-05-22 05:04:15 +0000 <Inst> and I tested it
2026-05-22 05:04:24 +0000 <Inst> I refactored my core authn authz 3 times ;_;
2026-05-22 05:04:53 +0000 <sm> that's a good mindsent
2026-05-22 05:04:57 +0000 <Inst> that is what i worry about minimal scope, if you do minimal scope, you're not future proofing, and you're giving yourself a harder problem of retrofitting features in
2026-05-22 05:04:58 +0000 <sm> mindset
2026-05-22 05:05:35 +0000 <sm> you should read some of the good old writings of smalltalkers and extreme programmers, eg on the WikiWikiWeb. They're all about this. Read about YAGNI there.
2026-05-22 05:06:00 +0000 <Inst> did the smalltalkers beat lispers on prototype speed?
2026-05-22 05:06:07 +0000 <sm> yes sometimes a little thinking ahead is wise, but often not
2026-05-22 05:06:32 +0000 <Inst> it's weird, i'm a very iconoclastic haskeller who loves all the diseased things you're not supposed to do
2026-05-22 05:06:40 +0000 <sm> that's a good question, in my experience yes they kind of did.
2026-05-22 05:06:40 +0000 <Inst> but somehow i'm still getting nausea at the code i'm writing
2026-05-22 05:08:31 +0000 <sm> oops, erased chat log...
2026-05-22 05:08:46 +0000 <sm> it sounds like you are burned out on this project/type of project. That's dangerous, you may need do something else or nothing for a while
2026-05-22 05:08:56 +0000 <Inst> yeah, i'm handling the human part of the gaming guild
2026-05-22 05:09:05 +0000hsw(~hsw@112-104-8-95.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) hsw
2026-05-22 05:09:10 +0000 <Inst> i found a scalan among the members, but we don't talk much
2026-05-22 05:10:15 +0000 <Inst> so, i guess your advice is to get the basic prototype up, i.e, set up a MP instead of an MVP
2026-05-22 05:12:13 +0000 <sm> if you're burned out, especially as a hobbyist, my advice is take a break from it. Or at minimum, look for a different approach to make it interesting again
2026-05-22 05:14:23 +0000 <sm> second, to have a look at those writings for inspiration. Third, to reduce scope till you're completing things more easily.
2026-05-22 05:15:17 +0000 <sm> fourth, study effective AI techniques.. fifth... boy I'm full of advice 😅
2026-05-22 05:17:34 +0000takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
2026-05-22 05:18:20 +0000 <sm> fifth, get a collaborator
2026-05-22 05:19:14 +0000 <sm> but you mentioned hiring.. so I don't understand the situation really
2026-05-22 05:25:31 +0000mehbark7(~mehbark@joey.luug.ece.vt.edu)
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2026-05-22 05:31:27 +0000haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2026-05-22 05:35:59 +0000 <sm> but I'm burned out on packing right now.. so I'll take my own advice
2026-05-22 05:36:42 +0000 <Inline> heh
2026-05-22 05:36:45 +0000chexum_(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 05:36:51 +0000 <Inline> exactry
2026-05-22 05:36:59 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) chexum
2026-05-22 05:45:41 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
2026-05-22 05:49:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
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2026-05-22 06:16:54 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) notzmv
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2026-05-22 06:50:50 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 06:51:48 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-05-22 06:53:57 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
2026-05-22 06:55:34 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-169-083.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) CiaoSen
2026-05-22 06:56:36 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-22 06:57:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-22 07:09:00 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 07:13:30 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 07:16:00 +0000driib3180(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 07:34:38 +0000ft(~ft@p4fc2aedc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2026-05-22 07:40:40 +0000 <Inst> wait sm you mean C2?
2026-05-22 07:40:44 +0000 <Inst> i used to read that compulsively
2026-05-22 07:40:52 +0000 <Inst> oh, i meant everything2
2026-05-22 07:49:02 +0000tusko(~uwu@user/tusko) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 07:49:20 +0000tusko(~uwu@user/tusko) tusko
2026-05-22 07:51:53 +0000remedan(~remedan@78-80-95-79.customers.tmcz.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2026-05-22 07:56:23 +0000 <Inst> sm: btw, it's hard to get a Haskell collaborator, no? I have someone hired at 30 USD/hr from the Chinese community, but they're being paid 30 USD/hr and they admit they're doing it out of generosity
2026-05-22 07:56:36 +0000 <Inst> so it's more like, me, AI, and a hireling
2026-05-22 08:10:03 +0000 <sm> I did mean c2 in fact - https://c2.com
2026-05-22 08:11:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 08:13:05 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2026-05-22 08:14:40 +0000Googulator61(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
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2026-05-22 08:16:49 +0000 <sm> hard to get a collaborator ? I guess it depends what you're doing. Isn't there a community around this gaming guild ?
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2026-05-22 08:25:41 +0000 <sm> see you Inst
2026-05-22 08:25:49 +0000sefidel(~sefidel@user/sefidel) sefidel
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2026-05-22 09:11:21 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-208-182-236.092.208.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline
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2026-05-22 09:30:10 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-169-083.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-22 09:31:54 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-105-061.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) CiaoSen
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2026-05-22 09:40:41 +0000qweerty(~Guest58@user/qweerty) qweerty
2026-05-22 09:51:15 +0000 <yin> merijn: fyi you've been spamming join/part messages for the last couple of days
2026-05-22 09:53:19 +0000 <[exa]> s/days/months/
2026-05-22 09:53:32 +0000Googulator61(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 09:53:39 +0000 <[exa]> yin: anyway he knows about it, we already asked :)
2026-05-22 09:54:04 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 09:57:09 +0000 <merijn> Realistically probably years, tbh. Stupid macos feature of waking up out of hibernate to check email also reconnects every single network app and despite best efforts there appears to be no way to turn this off
2026-05-22 10:01:26 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-22 10:02:14 +0000trampi(~trampi@mx.trampusch.info) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-05-22 10:02:44 +0000trampi(~trampi@mx.trampusch.info) trampi
2026-05-22 10:03:42 +0000sefidel(~sefidel@user/sefidel) sefidel
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2026-05-22 10:04:56 +0000bggd(~bgg@user/bggd) bggd
2026-05-22 10:07:31 +0000 <yin> merijn: have you tried sleepwatcher? i seems it would be as simple as creating a .sleep and .wakeup file for your irc client
2026-05-22 10:11:21 +0000 <yin> my irc client only shows join/part/quit messages from users who have intervened recently and right now half of my scrollback is merijn :)
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2026-05-22 10:57:32 +0000 <[exa]> is there something nice for decorating general exception messages with context, kinda like <?> for parsers?
2026-05-22 10:58:50 +0000 <[exa]> (I'd like to have something like callstacks but done manually)
2026-05-22 10:59:00 +0000 <[exa]> s/callstacks/backtraces/
2026-05-22 11:00:56 +0000 <[exa]> oh perhaps like this, but without IO and out of experimental :D
2026-05-22 11:00:58 +0000 <[exa]> https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/ghc-experimental-9.1401.0/docs/GHC-Stack-Annotation-Ex…
2026-05-22 11:03:55 +0000Square(~Square@user/square) Square
2026-05-22 11:08:57 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 11:11:56 +0000fgarcia(~lei@user/fgarcia) fgarcia
2026-05-22 11:18:26 +0000 <Leary> [exa]: I don't know about libraries, but it should be simple enough to roll your own; e.g. `data c :- e = c :- e deriving (Show, ...); instance (Typeable c, Show c, Exception e) => Exception (c :- e); decorate :: (Typeable c, Show c, MonadCatch m) => c -> m a -> m a; decorate c act = act `catch` \(SomeException e) -> throw (c :- e)`.
2026-05-22 11:19:56 +0000 <[exa]> Leary: I assume I need to extend all handlers to also catch the `:-` ?
2026-05-22 11:22:24 +0000 <Leary> Yeah. In practice you might actually want to fix `c` and extend `:-` exceptions in `decorate` so that nested annotations aren't different types.
2026-05-22 11:22:58 +0000 <[exa]> yeah `c` for me is a generic blabla String
2026-05-22 11:23:06 +0000 <[exa]> s/generic/general/
2026-05-22 11:23:56 +0000natechan(~natechan@c-98-45-159-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
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2026-05-22 11:27:44 +0000natechan(~natechan@c-98-45-159-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2026-05-22 11:27:56 +0000 <[exa]> (ok this sounds a bit like an exercise in Typeable patternmatching)
2026-05-22 11:28:01 +0000 <[exa]> (good)
2026-05-22 11:28:04 +0000 <[exa]> Leary: thanks! :)
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2026-05-22 11:35:39 +0000Fischmiep(~Fischmiep@user/Fischmiep) Fischmiep
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2026-05-22 11:36:38 +0000ryou(~haze@user/ryou) ryou
2026-05-22 11:37:46 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2026-05-22 11:41:48 +0000haritz(~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8) (Changing host)
2026-05-22 11:41:48 +0000haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2026-05-22 11:50:11 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> "Haskell Language Server (HLS) currently supports Goto Definition only for symbols defined within a user’s project, making it difficult to inspect implementations of functions imported from external dependencies. This project extends that functionality to third-party libraries by enabling developers to navigate directly to dependency source code from within their IDE. The solution leverages .hie
2026-05-22 11:50:13 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> files generated by GHC and indexed via HieDb." https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/programs/2026/projects/WKEV8qIK I wonder if this will support Prelude
2026-05-22 11:51:05 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> if the intention is to also support "goto definition" for the GHC and base modules then it is possibly extremely valuable
2026-05-22 11:51:50 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-05-22 11:51:55 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> Rust's LSP already supports arbitrary "goto definition", and so does that of Python, IIRC
2026-05-22 11:52:35 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> and of course, Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp, but they don't need LSPs
2026-05-22 11:54:07 +0000 <mesaoptimizer> https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/programs/2026/organizations/haskellorg lists all the proposed GSoC Haskell projects
2026-05-22 11:57:00 +0000leppardInline
2026-05-22 12:14:40 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-05-22 12:15:47 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-105-061.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) CiaoSen
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2026-05-22 12:24:30 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-05-22 12:26:55 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2026-05-22 12:29:41 +0000comerijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-05-22 12:29:53 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2026-05-22 12:32:00 +0000 <gentauro> is there a "Haskell to LC De Bruijn indexes" tool?
2026-05-22 12:32:50 +0000 <jaror> You can try bolting something onto MicroHS
2026-05-22 12:32:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-22 12:33:03 +0000 <jaror> Do you want to have it desugared?
2026-05-22 12:36:31 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) danza
2026-05-22 12:40:58 +0000kimiamania408(~67ff9c51@user/kimiamania) kimiamania
2026-05-22 12:41:46 +0000 <yin> isn't there a simple, idiomatic way of adding 2 Word8s while avoiding overflow?
2026-05-22 12:44:13 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 12:48:12 +0000 <Leary> [exa]: You probably already wrote something equivalent, but I'll share this in case any details are of interest: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/556a829afe3958671a9533760d7357dd
2026-05-22 12:49:07 +0000 <[exa]> Leary: <3
2026-05-22 12:50:54 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-22 12:51:26 +0000 <[exa]> Leary: I was failing over the typerep part, thanks a lot
2026-05-22 12:52:22 +0000kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2026-05-22 12:54:23 +0000 <gentauro> jaror: Lennarts MicroHS?
2026-05-22 12:55:02 +0000 <jaror> Yeah, it has a parser and desugarer. The only thing you probably need to do is convert it to DB.
2026-05-22 12:55:37 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-22 12:55:43 +0000 <gentauro> jaror: I think I recall a wiki article about it how you could "easily" obfuscate Haskell, which was just translate it to De Bruijn indexes :)
2026-05-22 12:55:52 +0000 <gentauro> but I don't seem to be able to find that wiki article :(
2026-05-22 12:56:06 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-22 12:56:35 +0000 <[exa]> gentauro: just use pointless^H^H^H^Hfree style
2026-05-22 12:56:46 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-05-22 12:59:24 +0000 <gentauro> [exa]: I want numbers xD
2026-05-22 13:02:45 +0000 <jaror> gentauro: do you want to just do this for expressions or for whole files? What do you want to do with type class instance definitions?
2026-05-22 13:06:10 +0000finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-22 13:06:46 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2026-05-22 13:09:39 +0000 <gentauro> jaror: EVERYTHING !!!
2026-05-22 13:09:40 +0000 <gentauro> xD
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2026-05-22 14:26:17 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
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2026-05-22 14:37:15 +0000ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ec
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2026-05-22 14:44:22 +0000ft(~ft@p4fc2aedc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-05-22 15:01:18 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-208-182-236.092.208.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline
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2026-05-22 15:06:46 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-105-061.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-05-22 15:28:02 +0000gawen(~gawen@user/gawen) (Quit: cya)
2026-05-22 15:33:38 +0000gawen(~gawen@user/gawen) gawen
2026-05-22 15:36:24 +0000comerijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-22 15:40:40 +0000 <pounce> does anyone know of a Either (m a) b -> m (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:42:19 +0000 <danza> i guess m is Applicative?
2026-05-22 15:42:26 +0000 <jaror> fmap swapEither . sequence . swapEither
2026-05-22 15:42:28 +0000 <pounce> e.g. `either (fmap Left) (pure . Right)
2026-05-22 15:42:40 +0000 <pounce> hoping there'd be a cute name
2026-05-22 15:42:42 +0000gawen(~gawen@user/gawen) (Quit: cya)
2026-05-22 15:42:53 +0000 <int-e> :t fmap Left `either` fmap pure Right
2026-05-22 15:42:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Either (f a) b -> f (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:43:12 +0000 <pounce> mhm
2026-05-22 15:43:27 +0000 <int-e> (this is scnr territory)
2026-05-22 15:43:30 +0000 <pounce> specifically m here is maybe
2026-05-22 15:44:49 +0000 <int-e> Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b) feels like it could be a `lift` but the the `m a` on the left I don't see any potential match
2026-05-22 15:45:18 +0000 <pounce> oh interesting
2026-05-22 15:45:46 +0000 <Leary> % :t firstA id
2026-05-22 15:45:47 +0000 <yahb2> firstA id ; :: (Bitraversable t, Applicative f) => t (f c) b -> f (t c b)
2026-05-22 15:45:59 +0000 <jaror> int-e: that's just sequence
2026-05-22 15:46:07 +0000 <pounce> cute
2026-05-22 15:46:38 +0000 <int-e> :t sequenceA :: Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b):t traverse
2026-05-22 15:46:39 +0000 <lambdabot> error: [GHC-83865]
2026-05-22 15:46:39 +0000 <lambdabot> • Expected a type, but ‘m (Either a b) : t traverse’ has kind ‘[*]’
2026-05-22 15:46:39 +0000 <lambdabot> • In an expression type signature:
2026-05-22 15:47:02 +0000 <int-e> jaror: Yeah I was getting there.
2026-05-22 15:47:09 +0000 <int-e> Also, that line worked in GHCi
2026-05-22 15:47:29 +0000 <int-e> % :t sequenceA :: Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:47:29 +0000 <yahb2> sequenceA :: Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b) ; :: Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:48:44 +0000 <int-e> oh! where did that stray `:t traverse` come from.
2026-05-22 15:48:53 +0000gawen(~gawen@user/gawen) gawen
2026-05-22 15:49:03 +0000danzawas wondering about its meaning
2026-05-22 15:49:16 +0000 <int-e> :t sequenceA :: Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:49:17 +0000 <lambdabot> Applicative m => Either a (m b) -> m (Either a b)
2026-05-22 15:49:22 +0000 <int-e> (just double-checking)
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2026-05-22 16:13:46 +0000Square(~Square@user/square) Square
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