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2025-05-21 00:44:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | LAC-Tech, there's imprecise exceptions |
2025-05-21 00:45:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | so technically unknown "pure code" containing no unsafePerformIO is not guaranteed to be deterministic |
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2025-05-21 00:48:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> we’re talking about asynchronous exceptions, right ? |
2025-05-21 00:49:11 +0200 | <EvanR> | no |
2025-05-21 00:49:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | like error "foo" + error "bar" |
2025-05-21 00:50:10 +0200 | <geekosaur> | if the compiler can determine that multiple paths all lead to bottoms, it can arbitrarily pick one |
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2025-05-21 01:04:26 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> why is things like whenM not in base? I see that ghc and extra packages have them. |
2025-05-21 01:05:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I am exploring the design space of caving into monadic bang vs. having these specialized fooM functions. |
2025-05-21 01:05:40 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> hence the question |
2025-05-21 01:07:39 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Usually something like traverse_ is better anyway. |
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2025-05-21 01:07:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | normal language: bool does a lot of heavy lifting, in haskell I feel like it got relegated to tier 4 control technology. Because you pattern match on more meaningful things most of time |
2025-05-21 01:07:45 +0200 | tolgo | (~Thunderbi@199.115.144.130) |
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2025-05-21 01:08:34 +0200 | <c_wraith> | and that's because you generally try to avoid Bool, yeah |
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2025-05-21 01:10:13 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | EvanR: interesting. General impression I'm getting is "it's mostly solved by the IO boundaries but there's a few annoying edge cases" |
2025-05-21 01:11:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | haskell is like the jumping off point to new languages with more guarantees rather than the destination |
2025-05-21 01:11:17 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Well, without IO you can't distinguish between different bottoms anyway |
2025-05-21 01:11:51 +0200 | <c_wraith> | So it doesn't really matter what exception is thrown, the value is a bottom. |
2025-05-21 01:11:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | but also if you mutate your perspective enough you can say haskell guarantees this or that ^ |
2025-05-21 01:12:20 +0200 | <EvanR> | the less actual stuff you care about the more abstract haskell gets |
2025-05-21 01:12:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | e.g. next you could just ignore bottom entirely |
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2025-05-21 01:22:09 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> LAC-Tech: I think it’s a recurring topic of language geeks but it doesn’t feel like a common annoyance for people building with haskell, we generally feel pretty confident in the “pure” parts of our code |
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2025-05-21 01:25:11 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> eg I’ve been building small-medium Haskell apps for the last 18 years, they feel pretty deterministic |
2025-05-21 01:25:44 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | the property I am looking for is: same inputs, same outputs. notably this does not preclude mutable data structures, as long as they're internal - I'm not sure "pure" extends that far. system clocks, RNG, IO (maybe RNG falls under IO...), disk, network... that's stuff I'd want to exclude statically, if possible |
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2025-05-21 01:29:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Yes, all those require the IO type |
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2025-05-21 01:32:27 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
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2025-05-21 01:37:27 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | aha, I thought so |
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2025-05-21 01:40:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Haskell code universally enforces this. There’s an escape hatch called unsafePerformIO which low level libs may use when it’s guaranteed harmless but you can statically check that too |
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2025-05-21 01:42:47 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (or even high level code, I do use it occasionally but that’s a choice) |
2025-05-21 01:44:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | LAC-Tech, it's cool that you can use mutable structures in "pure code" via ST |
2025-05-21 01:44:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | the user of the code doesn't have to know |
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2025-05-21 04:06:01 +0200 | <LAC-Tech> | EvanR: aha, I did not know that. I need to look up ST |
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2025-05-21 04:10:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef 0 >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
2025-05-21 04:11:00 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a |
2025-05-21 04:11:01 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 04:11:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | :t runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
2025-05-21 04:11:09 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Int |
2025-05-21 04:11:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | > runST (newSTRef (0::Int) >>= \ref -> replicateM 11 (modifySTRef ref (+1)) >> readSTRef ref) |
2025-05-21 04:11:17 +0200 | <lambdabot> | 11 |
2025-05-21 04:11:28 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
2025-05-21 04:11:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | haskell: the best imperative language? |
2025-05-21 04:11:58 +0200 | <jackdk> | Unironically |
2025-05-21 04:12:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-05-21 04:13:21 +0200 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-05-21 04:17:09 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
2025-05-21 04:17:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-05-21 04:19:02 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:19:25 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 04:21:10 +0200 | xal | (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Quit: bye) |
2025-05-21 04:21:47 +0200 | xal | (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) xal |
2025-05-21 04:24:12 +0200 | <Axman6> | I was reading edwardk's quanxi source code the other day, and there's so much imperative shit doing on, but interleaving mutable references with (sometime atomic) updates of pure values makes the code pretty nice... once you understand wtf it's trying to do |
2025-05-21 04:25:32 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:25:51 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 04:26:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | update pure values?? from "undefined" to "defined" or is it changing the representation to something semantically equivalent |
2025-05-21 04:27:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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2025-05-21 04:33:29 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-096-028-224-255.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:34:18 +0200 | Guest81 | (~Guest81@198.52.128.148) |
2025-05-21 04:36:23 +0200 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:36:37 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-096-028-224-255.res.spectrum.com) hackager |
2025-05-21 04:36:37 +0200 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
2025-05-21 04:37:21 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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2025-05-21 04:40:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | SPJ did say that Haskell is the finest imperative language. :) |
2025-05-21 04:41:09 +0200 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) sefidel |
2025-05-21 04:41:39 +0200 | afudos | (~afudos@198.52.128.148) |
2025-05-21 04:43:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | and that Haskell is useless |
2025-05-21 04:43:42 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-05-21 04:43:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | they are consistent remarks |
2025-05-21 04:44:29 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:44:46 +0200 | <monochrom> | Haskell is useful to me. I wrote Haskell programs to generate test cases for C programs and Java programs. |
2025-05-21 04:44:49 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 04:46:28 +0200 | <monochrom> | I teach data structures and I wrote Haskell programs to generate examples of AVL rebalancing steps. |
2025-05-21 04:47:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | someone at the escape room designed the most ridiculous pipe and water puzzle so I had to write a haskell program to verify that it could be solved the way they thought it could |
2025-05-21 04:47:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | heh |
2025-05-21 04:48:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-05-21 04:51:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | I teach network sockets and give network socket server and client assignments. To help students reality-check their misinterpretation of my protocal specification, I provide my model servers and clients for them to run against. I wrote them in Haskell so that if anyone tries to decompile my exes to cheat, they break down in tears and never recovers. >:) |
2025-05-21 04:53:12 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 04:53:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | an actual class on sockets wow |
2025-05-21 04:53:24 +0200 | <monochrom> | In that case, actually "Haskell is useless" and "Haskell is useful" are consistent. Haskell is useless, therefore no one invest in decompiling Haskell exes back to anything human-readable, therefore Haskell is useful for exe obfuscation. |
2025-05-21 04:53:34 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 04:53:36 +0200 | <EvanR> | I was in the wrong computer science program |
2025-05-21 04:54:00 +0200 | Guest81 | (~Guest81@198.52.128.148) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-05-21 04:55:04 +0200 | <monochrom> | Furthermore, GHC RTS makes such spamming and confusing syscalls that even strace doesn't help. >:) |
2025-05-21 04:59:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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2025-05-21 05:33:06 +0200 | <c_wraith> | you can turn off all those vtimer syscalls |
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2025-05-21 07:45:22 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-05-21 07:45:42 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-05-21 07:47:05 +0200 | <Axman6> | monochrom: Having run many programs through Ghidra, I can confirm they have no idea wtf is going on. Still useful for figuring out how things like numerical code gets compiled, but understanding control flow is out of the question. What syscalls does the RTS make that're confusing? |
2025-05-21 07:49:43 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "") |
2025-05-21 07:52:24 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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2025-05-21 07:52:55 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 07:58:18 +0200 | _d0t | (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-} |
2025-05-21 07:59:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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2025-05-21 08:04:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-05-21 08:06:34 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-05-21 08:06:57 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 08:08:19 +0200 | fp | (~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp |
2025-05-21 08:08:30 +0200 | craunts7 | (~craunts@136.158.8.87) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
2025-05-21 08:11:57 +0200 | <monochrom> | I see a good dose of poll and epoll, futex, and a lot of spurrious read. It also doesn't help that I linked with the threaded RTS. >:) |
2025-05-21 08:12:20 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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2025-05-21 08:12:43 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 08:15:06 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-05-21 08:16:37 +0200 | pointlessslippe1 | (~pointless@62.106.85.17) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) |
2025-05-21 08:19:48 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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2025-05-21 08:21:09 +0200 | <davean> | EvanR: where did you manage to have a CS degree that didn't have you do socket stuff? |
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2025-05-21 08:41:44 +0200 | prasad1 | prasad |
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2025-05-21 09:00:02 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
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2025-05-21 09:05:20 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
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2025-05-21 09:14:03 +0200 | Everything | (~Everythin@77.120.244.38) Everything |
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2025-05-21 09:30:00 +0200 | Everything | (~Everythin@77.120.244.38) (Quit: leaving) |
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2025-05-21 09:37:55 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
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2025-05-21 09:47:38 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
2025-05-21 09:49:56 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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2025-05-21 09:50:31 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen |
2025-05-21 09:51:24 +0200 | pointlessslippe1 | (~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1 |
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2025-05-21 10:10:26 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
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2025-05-21 10:29:06 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
2025-05-21 10:30:07 +0200 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
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2025-05-21 10:40:34 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p3e9bc106.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
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2025-05-21 10:59:36 +0200 | YoungFrog | (~youngfrog@2a02:a03f:ca07:f900:a9b8:a3d6:d29f:10e6) (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-3-96481995 - https://znc.in) |
2025-05-21 10:59:55 +0200 | YoungFrog | (~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) youngfrog |
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2025-05-21 11:42:49 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)) |
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2025-05-21 11:57:14 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
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2025-05-21 12:01:51 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:02:14 +0200 | bradparker | (sid262931@uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-05-21 12:02:15 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:05:51 +0200 | bradparker | (sid262931@id-262931.uxbridge.irccloud.com) bradparker |
2025-05-21 12:06:37 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:abb3:7000:4cc3:2ee4:9db4:edc5) ubert |
2025-05-21 12:09:40 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:10:01 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:17:57 +0200 | notzmv | (~daniel@user/notzmv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-05-21 12:21:48 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:22:04 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-05-21 12:22:09 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:29:31 +0200 | Buliarous | (~gypsydang@46.232.210.139) Buliarous |
2025-05-21 12:31:41 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:32:04 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:38:14 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:38:36 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:45:08 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-05-21 12:45:31 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
2025-05-21 12:45:52 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
2025-05-21 12:46:24 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |