IRCBrowse

2025/01/23

2025-01-23 00:01:31 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-23 00:02:11 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 00:02:15 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 00:02:32 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) Feuermagier
2025-01-23 00:02:57 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:06:29 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:08:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 00:10:38 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-01-23 00:10:48 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-01-23 00:11:38 +0100user363627(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-23 00:13:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:15:25 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:18:21 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 00:19:52 +0100agent314(~quassel@208.131.130.49) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:20:39 +0100agent314(~quassel@static-198-54-131-122.cust.tzulo.com) agent314
2025-01-23 00:20:48 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 00:22:02 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 00:24:29 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2025-01-23 00:25:02 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:26:34 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-01-23 00:27:59 +0100mange(~user@user/mange) mange
2025-01-23 00:28:13 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 00:28:17 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:28:51 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:29:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:30:27 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:33:28 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:33:53 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-01-23 00:37:16 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 00:39:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 00:44:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:45:48 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:52:55 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 00:55:15 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 00:55:50 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 00:59:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 00:59:59 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:03:16 +0100Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:04:39 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:05:44 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:09:09 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-23 01:10:38 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 01:11:44 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:12:13 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 01:16:21 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:17:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:17:39 +0100sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f084200fc9f655953232e47.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-01-23 01:17:57 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:18:05 +0100Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) Raito_Bezarius
2025-01-23 01:18:15 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 01:22:44 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:22:45 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:24:48 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 01:25:32 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:25:32 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 01:25:41 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:26:38 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:27:13 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-01-23 01:28:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 01:33:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:34:12 +0100notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 01:35:40 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 01:37:35 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:37:35 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 01:40:21 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:42:17 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 01:42:25 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:42:25 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 01:42:33 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:42:35 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-01-23 01:44:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 01:47:49 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:48:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:49:06 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Quit: 'forgot to sleep')
2025-01-23 01:50:13 +0100Midjak(~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2025-01-23 01:52:33 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:53:39 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:54:10 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:54:13 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f90cc5a38f326993e22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:54:22 +0100alecs(~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) alecs
2025-01-23 01:57:01 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) ystael
2025-01-23 01:58:32 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 01:59:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 01:59:30 +0100alecs(~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:59:31 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:59:36 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 01:59:52 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 01:59:53 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 02:00:37 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 02:02:52 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 02:04:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:04:42 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:04:53 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:05:42 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 02:07:55 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 02:07:57 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:08:05 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:08:36 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:10:20 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 02:10:33 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:10:33 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 02:12:32 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:14:34 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:15:07 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:15:22 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 02:16:35 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:19:17 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 02:19:17 +0100Guest68(~Guest68@220-233-36-18.ip4.exetel.com.au)
2025-01-23 02:19:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:20:04 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-23 02:20:52 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:21:17 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:21:57 +0100xff0x_(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:453a:eee1:9125:e152) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:25:03 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-23 02:26:12 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 02:26:24 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:26:24 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 02:26:46 +0100otto_s(~user@p5de2f486.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:28:14 +0100Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:28:25 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:28:29 +0100otto_s(~user@p5de2f4cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-01-23 02:28:49 +0100user363627(~user@user/user363627) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:29:02 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:30:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 02:31:13 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 02:32:25 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-01-23 02:35:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:37:59 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:38:01 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:40:02 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-23 02:42:55 +0100Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) Raito_Bezarius
2025-01-23 02:44:09 +0100Googulator91(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-01-23 02:44:58 +0100pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-23 02:46:07 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 02:47:40 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:47:44 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:47:47 +0100pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1
2025-01-23 02:49:01 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 02:50:24 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-01-23 02:50:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:53:25 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:53:58 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 02:54:37 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:55:10 +0100Guest68(~Guest68@220-233-36-18.ip4.exetel.com.au) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-01-23 02:59:25 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 03:01:21 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:01:33 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:01:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 03:04:01 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:07:38 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:07:45 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:07:57 +0100ryanbooker(uid4340@id-4340.hampstead.irccloud.com) ryanbooker
2025-01-23 03:09:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:09:31 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 03:11:52 +0100ft(~ft@p4fc2a1c1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:12:58 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:13:50 +0100ft(~ft@p3e9bcab6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2025-01-23 03:14:11 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:15:36 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-23 03:17:08 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:17:25 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 03:19:11 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 03:20:37 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:23:43 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:23:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:26:19 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 03:30:42 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:30:48 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:31:49 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:34:33 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 03:37:53 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:38:05 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 03:38:46 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:39:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:42:28 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:44:22 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:47:13 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:47:23 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 03:49:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 03:51:49 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:56:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:57:06 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-23 03:57:13 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-01-23 03:57:40 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 03:59:15 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-01-23 03:59:58 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:02:40 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:03:43 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:07:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 04:12:36 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:12:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:13:13 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:19:12 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:19:49 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:23:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 04:26:06 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Why is unicode so weird? A lot of equalities in text would make more sense and be much faster if it was actually consistent with combining stuff
2025-01-23 04:26:41 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:27:30 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 04:27:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:28:14 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:30:46 +0100 <geekosaur> because different languages have different notions of things like collation. "ll" is a distinct "letter" in Spanish, for example
2025-01-23 04:31:33 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:34:28 +0100 <probie> geekosaur: That was changed in 1994. Although that's still an issue for other languages (e.g. Welsh)
2025-01-23 04:34:38 +0100 <geekosaur> in the case of combining characters, there are "pre-combined" characters for various Western scripts, and will continue to be because "page 0" is defined as ISO8859-1, but you still need the separate ones for languages such as Vietnamese
2025-01-23 04:38:24 +0100 <geekosaur> (I'm not sure if any of the Latin-extended blocks covers Polish fully…)
2025-01-23 04:38:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 04:39:28 +0100 <geekosaur> s/page 0/the basic Latin block/
2025-01-23 04:39:51 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:42:03 +0100terrorjack45(~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:a66e::) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-01-23 04:42:30 +0100 <geekosaur> and in the end, whatever simplifying assumption you choose to try to make things behave "simply", there's some language somewhere that violates it
2025-01-23 04:42:46 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:43:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 04:43:43 +0100terrorjack45(~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:c17:a66e::) terrorjack
2025-01-23 04:44:13 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-23 04:44:44 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
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2025-01-23 04:51:03 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 04:54:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 04:57:10 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 05:07:32 +0100 <monochrom> Any language standard cannot be better than the language itself.
2025-01-23 05:07:44 +0100Typedfern(~Typedfern@248.red-83-37-32.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 05:07:55 +0100 <monochrom> More specifically, s/better/more coherent/
2025-01-23 05:09:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 05:10:43 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 05:11:36 +0100Guest68(~Guest68@220-233-36-18.ip4.exetel.com.au)
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2025-01-23 05:34:50 +0100 <Guest68> I was asking questions on #haskell-beginners about getting the sample code from the book "Simple Haskell" to work - I came up with this as the easiest way for a complete newbie to play around with the code. I removed the RIO import, replaced Text -> String and shoved everything into a Haskell Playground. I eventually worked out how to get print out
2025-01-23 05:34:50 +0100 <Guest68> the result of show on the testBuild function. Here is a link if anyone is interested: https://play.haskell.org/saved/8wnvkjgn
2025-01-23 05:36:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
2025-01-23 05:36:36 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 05:38:53 +0100 <glguy> I haven't seen the original, but that seems pretty reasonable
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2025-01-23 06:29:16 +0100rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.237) rekahsoft
2025-01-23 06:35:14 +0100homo(~homo@user/homo) homo
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2025-01-23 06:37:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> geekosaur note that back when "ll", "rr" and "ch" were letters in Spanish, they were mostly treated as separate, only their pronounciation changed. In particular, attempts to unify them into one letter never really became popular
2025-01-23 06:38:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Spanish has fairly strict rules for consonant treatment in many situations, and these were treated the as sets of consonants
2025-01-23 06:40:31 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> They weren't even named "letters" either, but they got into primary school material as if they were because of their pronounciation
2025-01-23 06:41:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 06:42:35 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> "s/letters/"letters"/" on the first one and "s/treated the as/treated as/" on the second. IRC not having edits is annoying
2025-01-23 06:42:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
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2025-01-23 07:13:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) merijn
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2025-01-23 07:17:45 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2025-01-23 07:18:10 +0100 <probie> Bowuigi: As I understand it, they weren't definitively removed as "letters" until 2010 https://www.rae.es/espanol-al-dia/exclusion-de-ch-y-ll-del-abecedario
2025-01-23 07:18:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@62.45.137.128) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 07:20:05 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:6ff3:8389:b901:6363) hgolden
2025-01-23 07:20:58 +0100ft(~ft@p3e9bcab6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-23 07:21:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Yep, that article describes the situation better. I forgot they were named digraphs lol
2025-01-23 07:24:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I still remember the colorful alphabet signs with digraphs and how quickly they were replaced when the mistake was corrected
2025-01-23 07:27:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> In fact, a lot of people still think they are separate letters and will recite it with those digraphs and their original names, "che" and "elle"/"lle"
2025-01-23 07:28:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Never understood why they were so unconsistent with it either, the variations of c and r never got their own graphemes. Anyway, that's offtopic lol
2025-01-23 07:30:13 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
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2025-01-23 07:48:48 +0100m5zs7k(aquares@web10.mydevil.net) m5zs7k
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2025-01-23 07:51:10 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-01-23 07:55:33 +0100JuanDaughertyColinRobinson
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2025-01-23 08:13:10 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:223:9800:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-23 08:13:13 +0100iteratee(~kyle@162.218.222.207) iteratee
2025-01-23 08:17:09 +0100 <dminuoso> probie: The fact that these details even change over time makes it even more complicated, you might require a kind of langdata similar to tzdata for a comprehensive solution.
2025-01-23 08:17:51 +0100 <dminuoso> Say you want to test whether a version of a text from 1970 has changed meaningfully from a version published in 2020.
2025-01-23 08:19:00 +0100 <dminuoso> And equality might not just refer to lexicography but typography as well - an interesting western example is ligatures.
2025-01-23 08:20:10 +0100 <dminuoso> Assuming something like `memcpy` to be the proper solution can be slightly naive too. Imagine `text` supported both UTF8 and UTF16 encodings. Would you want an UTF8 encoded string to be considered different from an UTF16 encoded sequence of the same codepoints?
2025-01-23 08:21:07 +0100 <dminuoso> Having worked with timestamps across timezones taught be to be careful and considerate with notions of equality.
2025-01-23 08:33:30 +0100HappyNewYear2025(~newyear@2.219.56.221)
2025-01-23 08:33:32 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-23 08:36:41 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2025-01-23 08:48:43 +0100 <homo> spew microhs is now bootstrappable with hugs https://issues.guix.gnu.org/75778
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2025-01-23 08:55:24 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
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2025-01-23 09:00:01 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-01-23 09:00:16 +0100xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.71.185) xdminsy
2025-01-23 09:00:40 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-01-23 09:05:02 +0100 <kqr> [esqueleto] I have a function that takes a couple of SqlExpr of a fractional type, which constructs an SqlQuery that divides one by the other. The result of this SqlQuery is also an SqlExpr of the same fractional type (because that's how SQL division works in esqueleto). However, I'd like this to be a different fractional type. I cannot promote the relevant Haskell conversion function to an
2025-01-23 09:05:04 +0100 <kqr> SqlExpr (the documentation is clear about this[1]) but I'm a little unsure what to do. There is an `unsafeCoerceSqlExpr` but I'm hesitant to use any function called "unsafe". [1]: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/esqueleto-3.6.0.0/docs/Database-Esqueleto-Internal-Internal.ht…
2025-01-23 09:06:21 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
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2025-01-23 10:10:42 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 10:11:39 +0100haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 10:13:04 +0100Googulator91(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-01-23 10:13:14 +0100Googulator91(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-01-23 10:13:20 +0100haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager
2025-01-23 10:13:20 +0100ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2025-01-23 10:14:58 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 10:15:17 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2025-01-23 10:16:33 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) remedan
2025-01-23 10:19:39 +0100 <geekosaur> Bowuigi: my specific recollection was of "ll" being a distinct section in Spanish<->English dictionaries. I grant that was some time ago, though, and dictionaries (especially the translation variety) may not match normal idiomatic usage.
2025-01-23 10:23:42 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2025-01-23 11:23:34 +0100ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: Exeunt DS Producer)
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2025-01-23 12:05:17 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2025-01-23 12:06:26 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) remedan
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2025-01-23 12:14:14 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-01-23 12:20:47 +0100JuanDaughertyColinRobinson
2025-01-23 12:20:58 +0100vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2025-01-23 12:22:14 +0100Googulator91(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-01-23 12:22:25 +0100Googulator91(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2445-f43e-80de-c8dc-0b63.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-01-23 12:22:27 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@31.16.203.214) ash3en
2025-01-23 12:22:48 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@31.16.203.214) (Client Quit)
2025-01-23 12:23:20 +0100alecs(~alecs@nat16.software.imdea.org) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 12:23:39 +0100alecs(~alecs@nat16.software.imdea.org) alecs
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2025-01-23 12:30:24 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:223:9800:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2025-01-23 12:30:38 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
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2025-01-23 12:43:47 +0100mange(~user@user/mange) (Quit: Zzz...)
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2025-01-23 12:53:01 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2025-01-23 12:58:24 +0100vpan(~vpan@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-01-23 12:58:30 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
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2025-01-23 12:59:22 +0100Guest8321vpan
2025-01-23 13:00:04 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-01-23 13:01:05 +0100AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.161.66)
2025-01-23 13:02:18 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
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2025-01-23 13:16:33 +0100taleseeker(~taleseeke@185.107.44.16) (Quit: irc: cannot access '/proc/taleseeker': No such file or directory)
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2025-01-23 13:28:04 +0100rachelambda8(~rachelamb@cust-95-80-25-71.csbnet.se) (Quit: β reduced)
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2025-01-23 13:41:10 +0100AlexNoo_AlexNoo
2025-01-23 13:41:17 +0100agent314(~quassel@static-198-54-131-122.cust.tzulo.com) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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2025-01-23 13:56:16 +0100Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-01-23 13:57:18 +0100rachelambda8(~rachelamb@cust-95-80-25-71.csbnet.se)
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2025-01-23 14:04:17 +0100alecs(~alecs@nat16.software.imdea.org) alecs
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2025-01-23 14:08:06 +0100homo(~homo@user/homo) homo
2025-01-23 14:11:06 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:12:49 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) vgtw
2025-01-23 14:13:38 +0100kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) kuribas
2025-01-23 14:14:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:15:26 +0100 <kuribas> Does the value restriction apply to haskell? For example for mutable data?
2025-01-23 14:15:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-01-23 14:16:12 +0100 <kuribas> I suppose it doesn't since haskell doesn't support subtyping?
2025-01-23 14:16:31 +0100 <kuribas> Like storing (forall a.Num a) in a datatype.
2025-01-23 14:16:36 +0100ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-01-23 14:18:26 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 14:19:19 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f96b82223b200180454.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:20:37 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2025-01-23 14:23:24 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:24:52 +0100 <Leary> kuribas: Based on a cursory reading of the wikipedia article it's obviated by purity---we don't need it.
2025-01-23 14:25:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:26:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-01-23 14:26:29 +0100SlackCoder(~SlackCode@64-94-63-8.ip.weststar.net.ky) SlackCoder
2025-01-23 14:28:04 +0100homo(~homo@user/homo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-01-23 14:29:49 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 14:31:52 +0100dunj3_(~dunj3@2a01:239:328:1600::1)
2025-01-23 14:31:58 +0100 <opqdonut> I think you can get related problems when you mix IORefs and unsafePerformIO
2025-01-23 14:32:02 +0100constxd(~constxd@user/constxd) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:32:05 +0100nschoe-(~nschoe@82-65-202-30.subs.proxad.net)
2025-01-23 14:32:20 +0100constxd(~constxd@user/constxd) constxd
2025-01-23 14:32:24 +0100dunj3(~dunj3@h1765027.stratoserver.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2025-01-23 14:33:52 +0100noctux(~noctux@user/noctux) noctux
2025-01-23 14:34:47 +0100xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.71.185) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 14:35:13 +0100xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.71.185) xdminsy
2025-01-23 14:35:16 +0100kmein(~weechat@user/kmein) kmein
2025-01-23 14:37:40 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 14:37:58 +0100 <kuribas> Leary: It would be the same problem with IO and subtyping.
2025-01-23 14:38:18 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:38:46 +0100 <kuribas> writeIORef :: IORef a -> a -> IO ()
2025-01-23 14:38:47 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-01-23 14:39:26 +0100 <kuribas> It works because IORef is monomorphic.
2025-01-23 14:41:18 +0100 <kuribas> Maybe with impredicative types the value restriction would apply?
2025-01-23 14:41:24 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 14:41:43 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) vgtw
2025-01-23 14:42:35 +0100tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2025-01-23 14:43:15 +0100 <probie> % let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef strRef >>= print}
2025-01-23 14:43:15 +0100 <yahb2> "bad"
2025-01-23 14:43:23 +0100 <probie> % let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef intRef >>= print}
2025-01-23 14:43:23 +0100 <yahb2> -2305843008106363762
2025-01-23 14:43:58 +0100tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:43:58 +0100tnt2tnt1
2025-01-23 14:44:24 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-01-23 14:45:26 +0100 <probie> % let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef intRef >>= print}
2025-01-23 14:45:26 +0100 <yahb2> -1152921503499516810
2025-01-23 14:46:42 +0100 <Leary> kuribas: You can only get `IORef`s from `newIORef :: a -> IO (IORef a)`. That remains monomorphic even if `a` doesn't.
2025-01-23 14:47:05 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2025-01-23 14:47:37 +0100gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit)
2025-01-23 14:47:48 +0100 <kuribas> newIORef (4 :: forall a.Num a)?
2025-01-23 14:48:08 +0100gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak
2025-01-23 14:50:00 +0100 <probie> If allowed, that's still safe, because the only thing you can put into that IORef is a `forall a. Num a`
2025-01-23 14:51:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> geekosaur yeah the situation was always confusing and this slightly more phonetic alphabet was incomplete, that's why it was changed
2025-01-23 14:51:49 +0100 <kuribas> probie: and if you have (foo :: IORef Int -> IO (IORef Int))?
2025-01-23 14:52:07 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: That's not the same thing
2025-01-23 14:52:18 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:52:35 +0100 <merijn> Because Int doesn't unify with `forall a . Num a => a`
2025-01-23 14:53:32 +0100 <kuribas> merijn: it's a subtype.
2025-01-23 14:53:46 +0100 <merijn> Because what you wrote is (with impredicative types) `IORef (forall a . Num a => a)` which is *not* `forall a . Num a => IORef a`
2025-01-23 14:54:29 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: It is not "a subtype", because such a notion doesn't exist in Haskell. The relevant notion is whether they unify (which they don't)
2025-01-23 14:54:30 +0100 <kuribas> (forall a . Num a => a) is a subtype of Int
2025-01-23 14:55:06 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 14:55:08 +0100 <kuribas> I "can" pass a (forall a.Num a) to a function taking int, no?
2025-01-23 14:55:16 +0100 <kuribas> Otherwise, what do you do with those?
2025-01-23 14:55:38 +0100 <merijn> You cannot
2025-01-23 14:55:49 +0100 <merijn> You can pass them to functions of Num
2025-01-23 14:56:14 +0100 <Leary> No, you certainly can.
2025-01-23 14:56:50 +0100 <merijn> Leary: How so?
2025-01-23 14:56:55 +0100 <ncf> :t (\x -> x) :: (forall a. Num a => a) -> Int
2025-01-23 14:56:56 +0100 <lambdabot> (forall a. Num a => a) -> Int
2025-01-23 14:57:26 +0100 <ncf> (\x -> x) :: A → B is at least one reasonable definition of A ≤ B
2025-01-23 14:57:48 +0100gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit)
2025-01-23 14:57:55 +0100 <kuribas> > (succ :: Int -> Int) (3 :: Num a => a)
2025-01-23 14:57:57 +0100 <lambdabot> 4
2025-01-23 14:58:03 +0100Guest44(~Guest44@2409:40f4:101c:dd54:1dc9:6365:96b5:504a)
2025-01-23 14:58:18 +0100gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak
2025-01-23 14:58:31 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: That's the incorrect example, in that the forall is now in the wrong place for what I was saying
2025-01-23 14:58:43 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 14:59:04 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: Your original sample was impredicative, which ends up giving you an existential type
2025-01-23 14:59:06 +0100 <Leary> Haskell can be said to have subtyping, but it is (and must be) shallow: while `forall a. F a` is a subtype of `F A`, `F (forall a. a)` is not a subtype of `F A`.
2025-01-23 14:59:21 +0100 <merijn> But since Haskell existentials use the same syntax with forall it becomes easy to confuse the two
2025-01-23 14:59:54 +0100 <Leary> So you cannot pass an `IORef (forall a. Num a => a)` to a function expecting an `IORef Int`.
2025-01-23 15:00:22 +0100 <kuribas> merijn: it's reasonable for an immutable list.
2025-01-23 15:00:49 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: i.e. putting "forall a . Num a => a" into an IORef and getting an (impredicative) "IORef (forall a . Num a => a)" is fine. But what you "get out" of that IORef is an existential type that you cannot instantiate to Int
2025-01-23 15:01:08 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: Impredicativity works the exist same in lists
2025-01-23 15:01:09 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-01-23 15:01:26 +0100 <Leary> merijn: It's universal, not existential.
2025-01-23 15:01:31 +0100 <merijn> [forall a . Num a => a] has the *exact* same restrictions as IORef
2025-01-23 15:01:47 +0100 <merijn> Leary: It *is* an existential, but haskell encodes those as hidden foralls
2025-01-23 15:01:53 +0100taleseeker(~taleseeke@185.107.44.16)
2025-01-23 15:02:37 +0100 <merijn> Don't blame me for having to write existentials with forall rather than exists, blame the Simon's and GHC team :p
2025-01-23 15:03:09 +0100 <Leary> Well, one of us is confused, because I'm pretty sure nothing is existential here.
2025-01-23 15:03:40 +0100Guest44(~Guest44@2409:40f4:101c:dd54:1dc9:6365:96b5:504a) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-01-23 15:03:42 +0100 <ncf> i don't see any existentials here, church-encoded or not
2025-01-23 15:04:26 +0100 <ncf> forall a. Num a => a does not produce a type. it accepts a type
2025-01-23 15:04:42 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:223:9800:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 15:05:27 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 15:08:35 +0100 <merijn> ncf: The only way to represent existentials in GHC is via `newtype SomeFoo = SomeFoo (forall a . Foo a => a)`
2025-01-23 15:08:57 +0100 <ncf> no
2025-01-23 15:09:08 +0100 <ncf> data SomeFoo = forall a. Foo a => SomeFoo a
2025-01-23 15:09:23 +0100 <ncf> note that the universal context is outside of the constructor
2025-01-23 15:09:31 +0100 <ncf> this is shorthand for
2025-01-23 15:09:36 +0100 <ncf> data SomeFoo where
2025-01-23 15:09:47 +0100 <ncf> SomeFoo :: forall a. Foo a => SomeFoo
2025-01-23 15:09:51 +0100 <ncf> in GADT syntax
2025-01-23 15:10:03 +0100 <merijn> I forgot the syntax, since it's been awhile, you get the idea
2025-01-23 15:10:27 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 15:10:36 +0100 <ncf> the syntax is precisely what confuses you here
2025-01-23 15:12:00 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-23 15:12:24 +0100 <ncf> er sorry
2025-01-23 15:12:28 +0100 <ncf> SomeFoo :: forall a. Foo a => a -> SomeFoo
2025-01-23 15:12:32 +0100zeroyin
2025-01-23 15:12:37 +0100 <ncf> please note the difference with
2025-01-23 15:12:39 +0100 <ncf> data AnyFoo where
2025-01-23 15:12:47 +0100 <ncf> AnyFoo :: (forall a. Foo a => a) -> AnyFoo
2025-01-23 15:13:07 +0100 <ncf> the former could be rewritten, in pseudo-haskell,
2025-01-23 15:13:17 +0100 <ncf> SomeFoo :: (exists a. Foo a /\ a) -> SomeFoo
2025-01-23 15:13:29 +0100 <ncf> (using the syntax of the first-class existentials GHC proposal)
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2025-01-23 17:24:36 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2025-01-23 17:24:44 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 17:32:04 +0100benjamin(~benjamin@2a03:4b80:a720:7ac0:81df:27f5:be30:edfd)
2025-01-23 17:32:56 +0100m5zs7k(aquares@web10.mydevil.net) m5zs7k
2025-01-23 17:33:30 +0100 <benjamin> hello, is there some sort of auto-reload-on-file-change functionality built into ghci/cabal repl ?(p.s. i am aware of ghcid, but i cant get that to reload the repl i am using)
2025-01-23 17:34:29 +0100 <geekosaur> use ghcid or ghciwatch
2025-01-23 17:37:44 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-23 17:41:01 +0100 <benjamin> thanks!
2025-01-23 17:41:50 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 18:26:42 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-01-23 18:28:10 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-23 18:31:45 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f96087c68b89a449bc9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2025-01-23 18:34:38 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Quit: hueso)
2025-01-23 18:35:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> homo would compiling GHC using GHC with the "-fvia-C" flag help with bootstrapping? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/codegens.html
2025-01-23 18:35:14 +0100Guest4942vpan
2025-01-23 18:36:46 +0100JuanDaughertyColinRobinson
2025-01-23 18:38:02 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso) hueso
2025-01-23 18:38:08 +0100 <geekosaur> via-C produces slow but portable ANSI C, which you can capture (-keep-hc-files, I think) and compile on another system
2025-01-23 18:38:46 +0100 <geekosaur> sadly I don't think the bootstrapping process is described anywhere, you would have to ask in #GHC:matrix.org
2025-01-23 18:38:54 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 18:38:58 +0100 <geekosaur> (and tbh I think we're running out of folks who know how it works)
2025-01-23 18:40:59 +0100Wstfgl0(~me-me@kc.randomserver.name)
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2025-01-23 18:43:20 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.250.232)
2025-01-23 18:44:37 +0100 <homo> Bowuigi geekosaur generated code is considered binary, so no, that is not bootstrap from source, also I already stated earlier I have no interest touching ghc just like ghc developers have no interest in bootstrappability, ghc is haskell, but haskell is not ghc
2025-01-23 18:46:14 +0100 <__monty__> homo: I think GHC keeps being brought up because most people see non-GHC Haskell as little more than a toy.
2025-01-23 18:46:40 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2025-01-23 18:47:05 +0100dtman34(~dtman34@c-75-72-179-251.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) dtman34
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2025-01-23 18:48:58 +0100ColinRobinsonJuanDaugherty
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2025-01-23 18:50:44 +0100 <homo> keeping my goal to bring haskell to plan9 in mind: 1. ghc on plan9 wouldn't even be able to compile and run 99% of packages on stackage because plan9 is neither posix nor windows compatible, 2. I want to rip off ffi completely and convert every haskell code that I use into calling syscalls provided by kernel, 3. ghc is too bloated for my laptop, compilation process will simply destroy it, 4. microhs being small allows me to easily modify it
2025-01-23 18:50:45 +0100nhar(~noah@host-68-169-128-200.BROOLT1.epbfi.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 18:50:55 +0100Me-me(~me-me@kc.randomserver.name)
2025-01-23 18:51:08 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2025-01-23 18:53:55 +0100j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
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2025-01-23 18:57:10 +0100 <homo> also if someone seriously considers trying to build ghc with microhs, most likely it will take 1000 times longer to compile, so even if 5 hours turn into 1000 hours, that is almost 42 days waiting for compilation to finish, and you will have to start again if something fails and you make changes to ghc
2025-01-23 19:00:05 +0100JuanDaughertyColinRobinson
2025-01-23 19:03:21 +0100cy7(~yt@pool-99-238-69-14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
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2025-01-23 19:15:10 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-01-23 19:16:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> homo: sounds like you want to bring microhs to plan 9 ? what's the current problem ?
2025-01-23 19:18:01 +0100ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-01-23 19:18:35 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-01-23 19:23:58 +0100xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.71.143) xdminsy
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2025-01-23 19:27:24 +0100 <homo> sm well, bootstrap with hugs is complete, so now it's possible for me to focus on porting, all I need to do is simply rewrite everything that expects posix environment into using plan9 environment, both virtual machine and provided haskell source have posix-specific code (which means generated/mhs.c is not portable despite being for virtual machine)
2025-01-23 19:28:39 +0100 <homo> a cherry on top I need to figure out how to work yacc and extend hugs to support pattern guards so that there is no need for long bootstrap chain in the future
2025-01-23 19:28:58 +0100 <homo> s/work yacc/work with yacc/
2025-01-23 19:30:41 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) vgtw
2025-01-23 19:31:52 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-01-23 19:32:14 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-01-23 19:34:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> sounds great! This should be helpful for microhs' portability in the end
2025-01-23 19:38:02 +0100 <homo> well, it's small size (or rather design decision) already allows it to be more portable than ghc, it should build on riscv without any modifications
2025-01-23 19:38:39 +0100 <homo> as well as on any other instruction set architecture that is either 32-bit or 64-bit
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2025-01-23 19:43:07 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh
2025-01-23 19:43:58 +0100Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2025-01-23 19:50:51 +0100 <homo> also having darcs on riscv would be very neat, which again is more realistic to do with microhs
2025-01-23 19:53:40 +0100alecs(~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) alecs
2025-01-23 19:54:17 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
2025-01-23 19:54:39 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I'd say that is a long shot. Darcs is a big crufty old codebase.
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2025-01-23 20:08:45 +0100euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
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2025-01-23 20:14:45 +0100 <homo> well, pijul got rewritten from ocaml to rust long time ago and might be incompatible with old ocaml implementation, so converting pijul to haskell requires understanding rust
2025-01-23 20:20:23 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2025-01-23 20:21:29 +0100_73(~user@129.63.248.16) _73
2025-01-23 20:21:38 +0100 <homo> another possibility is to learn format of pijul repository and implement pijul in haskell without reading any line of rust code
2025-01-23 20:22:03 +0100 <homo> but before any of that I want to toy with darcs longer
2025-01-23 20:22:49 +0100 <srazkvt> biggest problem of pijul rn imo is server part isn't open, or at least wasn't last time i checked
2025-01-23 20:24:44 +0100 <_73> Hi. Today in class when discussing OCaml a classmate asked "does OCaml have a currying operator like $ in haskell"? The professor sort of brushed it off but I am confused as I always thought of $ as an operator for function application. I have never heard it referred to as a "currying operator", and cant find any such statements online. Is it accurate to refer to $ as a "currying operator"?
2025-01-23 20:27:07 +0100srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2025-01-23 20:30:25 +0100 <mauke> I agree with you
2025-01-23 20:30:35 +0100 <mauke> I don't see what $ has to do with currying
2025-01-23 20:31:29 +0100 <_73> Ok, this is what I thought.
2025-01-23 20:33:52 +0100 <homo> :t curry
2025-01-23 20:33:53 +0100 <lambdabot> ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
2025-01-23 20:33:59 +0100 <homo> :t uncurry
2025-01-23 20:34:00 +0100 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
2025-01-23 20:36:39 +0100 <homo> :t ($)
2025-01-23 20:36:40 +0100 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> a -> b
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2025-01-23 20:49:09 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f96087c68b89a449bc9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 20:49:29 +0100 <homo> _73 as an exercise, just play along with that, especially when you have job it's important to use same terminology that your co-workers use no matter how wrong it is, don't correct anyone in a work-place if you aren't willing to take risk of loosing job
2025-01-23 20:51:16 +0100nhar(~noah@host-198-57-81-19.WISOLT3.epbfi.com)
2025-01-23 20:52:27 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 20:53:01 +0100nhar(~noah@host-198-57-81-19.WISOLT3.epbfi.com) (Client Quit)
2025-01-23 20:55:04 +0100 <[exa]> wow, pijul
2025-01-23 20:55:31 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-01-23 20:55:33 +0100 <[exa]> did they actually manage to summarize the algorithms there somehow? the only documentation on the data structues (in the manual) seems......weak at best
2025-01-23 20:57:45 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 20:58:00 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> implementing pijul is also a long shot. It's another large app, depending on a large new db. Sorry to be the naysayer..
2025-01-23 20:58:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I think it's a few very demanding person-years
2025-01-23 20:59:11 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> (either project)
2025-01-23 21:00:01 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
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2025-01-23 21:00:41 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-01-23 21:02:03 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-01-23 21:04:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> maybe LLMs will get good at converting rust to haskell sooner
2025-01-23 21:06:33 +0100 <dminuoso> I am not convinced LLMs will continuously improve over time.
2025-01-23 21:06:56 +0100 <dminuoso> Especially in programming tasks.
2025-01-23 21:07:29 +0100 <dminuoso> You need to scale up training sets, already the well is poisoned because the internet is getting flooded by LLM generated code.
2025-01-23 21:18:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> they have been so far
2025-01-23 21:18:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> the poisoning thing doesn't seem to be happening, or can be avoided
2025-01-23 21:19:57 +0100 <dminuoso> It is not unreasonable that the big companies have taken big snapshots from the pristine state to avoid training from poisoned sets.
2025-01-23 21:20:21 +0100son0p(~ff@2800:e6:4001:6cc3:2e2c:4b4e:bc2a:6f17) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-01-23 21:20:45 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I think training often involves synthetic data and is carefully structured these days
2025-01-23 21:23:41 +0100 <dminuoso> The publications I have seen and skimmed suggest that LLMs break down on recursive training.
2025-01-23 21:23:43 +0100 <homo> sm you are very optimistic about how companies are structured internally when in reality they suffer a lot of disorganization
2025-01-23 21:24:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> eh ?
2025-01-23 21:24:18 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-01-23 21:25:01 +0100 <dminuoso> For recursive training to add value, we would need LLMs to generate better output than their input, especially in programming since auditing large piles of codes for quality and correctness is just not feasible.
2025-01-23 21:26:19 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f96b914b0b581af9338.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-01-23 21:26:19 +0100 <dminuoso> Besides, everything I have seen suggests that LLMs in programming perform rather poor on any non-trivial problems, and yet they get used much in boiler plate code. To me that suggests a negative quality feedback loop, as the generated low quality code increases rapidly
2025-01-23 21:26:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> homO: I meant that the more successful and more efficient new LLMs seem to be benefitting from a more carefully structured training process (from my HN reading). I'm not saying anything about companies
2025-01-23 21:26:37 +0100Midjak(~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) Midjak
2025-01-23 21:26:54 +0100 <dminuoso> You and I must be reading very different HN articles. :)
2025-01-23 21:28:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> I used an LLM very successfully yesterday for some PHP and JS work. (Sorry to say it, because I don't like their costs and don't want to promote them. But I'm hoping to mostly use a local one soon.)
2025-01-23 21:28:58 +0100 <homo> dminuoso don't tell that to companies that want to cut their budget on workers, let them go bankrupt after they replace programmers with llms
2025-01-23 21:28:59 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> nobody has trained one focussed on rust/haskell porting yet, but something like that is quite possible in the near future. Much sooner than anyone will manually port darcs or pijul I predict
2025-01-23 21:29:14 +0100 <dminuoso> homo: Personally I dont mind if companies adopt LLMs large scale for programming.
2025-01-23 21:29:16 +0100 <dminuoso> I welcome it.
2025-01-23 21:29:38 +0100 <dminuoso> Someone needs to fix the hallucinated garbage in the future, someone who actually knows how to build programs without the tool that broke it in the first place.
2025-01-23 21:30:00 +0100 <dminuoso> I believe to be above the job security threshold.
2025-01-23 21:30:11 +0100 <homo> I welcome it too, because then proprietary software will be so shitty that more and more people will switch to free software
2025-01-23 21:30:29 +0100 <dminuoso> Why would free software be unimpacted?
2025-01-23 21:30:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Already now, people spend very little time on their open source projects.
2025-01-23 21:31:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> eh.. for some value of "very little time"
2025-01-23 21:32:43 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-01-23 21:33:20 +0100 <homo> it also depends on how much sense it makes to focus on project, what if it's complete and thus requires updates very rarely?
2025-01-23 21:36:01 +0100 <homo> "oh no, last time it was updated was 2 years ago, it's so bad it wasn't updated yesterday"
2025-01-23 21:37:09 +0100simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 21:38:08 +0100 <Rembane> I love projects that are done. And that just keeps working.
2025-01-23 21:38:26 +0100 <homo> I bet this kind of culture of frequent updates helps exploits like in xz happen
2025-01-23 21:39:16 +0100 <Rembane> Why?
2025-01-23 21:40:03 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> me too. Not all projects can be done; either way, I love the ones that just keep working
2025-01-23 21:40:06 +0100 <homo> because if you don't push more code, people think your project is dead, irrelevant
2025-01-23 21:41:06 +0100 <geekosaur> some of us ignore the update culture. xmonad's core barely changes; it's solid and doesn't need to change, and most things can be done via hooks (which mostly come from xmonad-contrib but I've seen a fair amount of personal extensions in people's `xmonad.hs` files)
2025-01-23 21:41:17 +0100 <geekosaur> (or modules in their private `lib` directories)
2025-01-23 21:42:12 +0100 <dminuoso> sm: Well most certainly do not donate 40 hours a week. When I say "little time" I mean it in the sense of "what little time they can donate" while splitting time with family, other hobbies and sleep
2025-01-23 21:42:15 +0100 <Rembane> homo: I think that depends on the ecosystem
2025-01-23 21:42:27 +0100 <Rembane> homo: Some ecosystems are so much more chill than others when it comes to updates.
2025-01-23 21:42:51 +0100 <dminuoso> sm: Especially in projects where there is 1-2 develoeprs, but dozens of issues a day from people that really want things fixed.
2025-01-23 21:42:54 +0100EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR
2025-01-23 21:43:24 +0100 <dminuoso> LLMs certainly seem like a promising solution to a lack of open source contributions - whether its for good or worse remains to be seen.
2025-01-23 21:43:32 +0100 <homo> also when updates happen rarely, it's easier to make independent review and decide whether or not they are desirable
2025-01-23 21:43:42 +0100 <dminuoso> But Ive seen reports from a few maintainers that have to fight floods of PRs of poorly generated code already.
2025-01-23 21:43:49 +0100 <dminuoso> Not enough to consider it a pattern, but its a possibility
2025-01-23 21:44:26 +0100 <homo> would be actually an interesting update mechanism for every user: review code before updating
2025-01-23 21:44:48 +0100 <dminuoso> homo: I do that for our critical software.
2025-01-23 21:45:09 +0100 <dminuoso> For a while I have been playing around with an idea on how to tie this into cabal-install
2025-01-23 21:45:28 +0100 <dminuoso> But for now this is a manual process which I rigorously follow.
2025-01-23 21:46:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Why why I belong to the set of people that dislike large dependeny footprints, it makes my job harder. :-P
2025-01-23 21:48:40 +0100 <homo> you just give example of why bring microhs to plan9 - small dependency footprint of all software combined
2025-01-23 21:49:50 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-01-23 21:50:11 +0100 <dminuoso> Ideally I would want cabal-install to have a mechanism to quickly vendor all dependencies unpacked locally
2025-01-23 21:50:26 +0100 <dminuoso> That way updates are easily reflected in git history too.
2025-01-23 21:51:30 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-01-23 21:51:53 +0100 <homo> do you mean like some gnu/linux distros package haskell libraries??
2025-01-23 21:52:37 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-01-23 21:54:47 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) poscat
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2025-01-23 21:58:33 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-01-23 22:00:04 +0100 <homo> btw, I just made some optimistic calculation, that if normally compiling ghc with ghc takes 5 hours, and microhs is 20 times slower than ghc and produces 50 times slower binaries than ghc, we get (20 stage0 + 50 stage1 + 1 stage2) * 5 = 355 hours = 14 days 19 hours of computer not doing anything other than compiling ghc, so to anyone willing to try: good luck and stay sane
2025-01-23 22:00:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Sounds like good old Gentoo times from the 00s.
2025-01-23 22:01:14 +0100 <int-e> I imagine that GHC uses too many of its own extensions for that to have any chance of working.
2025-01-23 22:01:15 +0100 <dminuoso> "Sorry we cant watch that movie next weekend, I'm busy compiling firefox"
2025-01-23 22:01:20 +0100 <homo> stage2 is just to make sure it's bit-to-bit identical to stage1
2025-01-23 22:01:43 +0100 <int-e> stage1 should also be fast, no?
2025-01-23 22:02:01 +0100 <int-e> hmm
2025-01-23 22:02:13 +0100 <int-e> no.
2025-01-23 22:02:24 +0100 <homo> stage0 = microhs compiles ghc, resulting binary is 50 times slower
2025-01-23 22:02:32 +0100 <int-e> stage0 = microhs, stage1 = ghc executed in whatever way by microhs, so slow
2025-01-23 22:02:36 +0100 <homo> stage1 = slow ghc compiles ghc
2025-01-23 22:02:41 +0100 <int-e> oh
2025-01-23 22:02:51 +0100 <homo> stage2 = fast ghc compile bit-by-bit identical fast ghc
2025-01-23 22:02:52 +0100 <int-e> so you have a stage -1 of sorts
2025-01-23 22:02:54 +0100 <int-e> fair enough
2025-01-23 22:03:32 +0100 <homo> stage2 is only for those who care about reproducible builds
2025-01-23 22:03:35 +0100 <int-e> Or rather you'd have... I still expect that to not work.
2025-01-23 22:05:26 +0100 <homo> those 14 days and 19 hours will surely turn into years of patching ghc, so this is why I'm wishing good luck and sanity to anyone wanting this
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