| 2024-12-22 00:01:53 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-12-22 00:03:53 +0100 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 00:04:13 +0100 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) chexum |
| 2024-12-22 00:09:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 00:14:58 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:20:26 +0100 | <exarkun> | today, right now |
| 2024-12-22 00:20:41 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> really? cool |
| 2024-12-22 00:20:45 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what library are you using |
| 2024-12-22 00:20:56 +0100 | <exarkun> | reflex-sdl2 |
| 2024-12-22 00:21:10 +0100 | <exarkun> | and reflex, of course |
| 2024-12-22 00:22:05 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> neat, will try out reflex right now |
| 2024-12-22 00:22:13 +0100 | ubert1 | (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf117cbda8ce35cba2c9a19e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ubert |
| 2024-12-22 00:23:13 +0100 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf117ce99c7826839207afbb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:23:13 +0100 | ubert1 | ubert |
| 2024-12-22 00:25:41 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 00:30:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:31:20 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:32:01 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:34:27 +0100 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-12-22 00:38:12 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) son0p |
| 2024-12-22 00:39:51 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 00:41:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 00:42:30 +0100 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2024-12-22 00:46:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 00:49:00 +0100 | E2Combinator | (~E2Combina@190.180.45.137) |
| 2024-12-22 00:55:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 00:58:09 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 00:58:09 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 00:58:57 +0100 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:01:58 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:04:28 +0100 | <Leary> | % :t \xs i -> either Just (const Nothing) . flip runStateT 0 $ for_ xs \x -> do{ j <- get; put (j + 1); when (j == i) (throwError x) } |
| 2024-12-22 01:04:28 +0100 | <yahb2> | \xs i -> either Just (const Nothing) . flip runStateT 0 $ for_ xs \x -> do{ j <- get; put (j + 1); when (j == i) (throwError x) } ; :: (Eq a, Num a, Foldable t) => t e -> a -> Maybe e |
| 2024-12-22 01:04:41 +0100 | cptaffe | (~cptaffe@user/cptaffe) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:05:03 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f1a2c0064c6ee858fd5dcfe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-12-22 01:05:09 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz |
| 2024-12-22 01:05:16 +0100 | E2Combinator | (~E2Combina@190.180.45.137) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-12-22 01:05:23 +0100 | <Leary> | EvanR: `Foldable` already has indexing. |
| 2024-12-22 01:06:47 +0100 | cptaffe | (~cptaffe@user/cptaffe) cptaffe |
| 2024-12-22 01:10:12 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 01:10:22 +0100 | E2Combinator | (~E2Combina@190.180.45.137) |
| 2024-12-22 01:13:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 01:17:27 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 01:17:47 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:23:12 +0100 | <monochrom> | Wait, do you mean one can just do toList and index into that list?! |
| 2024-12-22 01:23:36 +0100 | <monochrom> | Not very efficient but I guess it counts. |
| 2024-12-22 01:24:00 +0100 | <monochrom> | Then again Napier functors can have inefficient indexing too. |
| 2024-12-22 01:28:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 01:33:08 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:34:04 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 01:42:31 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@31.19.233.78) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 01:44:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 01:44:46 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-12-22 01:45:45 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | Hi. I have some serious issues tryong to define a wrapper effect in fused-effects, anyone can help with that? |
| 2024-12-22 01:46:33 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | I have defined the effect as such: |
| 2024-12-22 01:46:33 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4J7pz5eI |
| 2024-12-22 01:46:33 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | And it typechecks and all |
| 2024-12-22 01:47:05 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | I have defined an operation as such: |
| 2024-12-22 01:47:07 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | resolveMovementStep :: Has UpdateTracking sig m => WilMaze InMovement -> m (WilMaze InMovement) |
| 2024-12-22 01:47:12 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | And it typechecks and all |
| 2024-12-22 01:47:36 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | But the moment I try to run resolveMovementStep with an effect carrier stack, I get the following: |
| 2024-12-22 01:47:48 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | run $ runUpdateTracking $ resolveMovementStep m |
| 2024-12-22 01:48:28 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/pXrMkP7e |
| 2024-12-22 01:48:40 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:49:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 01:49:09 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | It complains partially about a missing effect signature, but even if I add the Has (Writer Any) constraint, it still fails |
| 2024-12-22 01:50:07 +0100 | <E2Combinator> | Nvm, I saw the issue. Extraneous constraint in the Algebra instance |
| 2024-12-22 01:55:45 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 01:59:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 02:02:46 +0100 | MyNetAz | (~MyNetAz@user/MyNetAz) MyNetAz |
| 2024-12-22 02:04:52 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:15:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 02:15:27 +0100 | ryanbooker | (uid4340@id-4340.hampstead.irccloud.com) ryanbooker |
| 2024-12-22 02:17:27 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f1a2c0064c6ee858fd5dcfe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 02:20:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:21:17 +0100 | <orangeflu> | Bowuigi, you here? |
| 2024-12-22 02:27:00 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yes, also Matrix stores messages when I'm offline |
| 2024-12-22 02:30:47 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 02:35:17 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:37:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:38:08 +0100 | <orangeflu> | ok, so weird thing |
| 2024-12-22 02:38:14 +0100 | <orangeflu> | been coding some more on that branch today |
| 2024-12-22 02:38:38 +0100 | <orangeflu> | decided, what the hell, haven't done a cabal test in a few hours, let me make sure i didn't fuck anything up in the meanwhile |
| 2024-12-22 02:38:49 +0100 | <orangeflu> | that few gigs we were talking about yesterday |
| 2024-12-22 02:38:54 +0100 | <orangeflu> | disappeared completely |
| 2024-12-22 02:39:06 +0100 | <orangeflu> | if i run test.asm, it doesn't do that anymore |
| 2024-12-22 02:39:10 +0100 | <orangeflu> | not sure when it stopped |
| 2024-12-22 02:39:14 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 02:39:41 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i tried to go back to yesterday's commits but no luck, it simply isn't there |
| 2024-12-22 02:40:10 +0100 | <orangeflu> | so i'ma just decide its a compiler weirdness and hope it never comes back, but it is weird indeed |
| 2024-12-22 02:41:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 02:42:08 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, how owuld FRP model something like viewer state? e.g., the current page the user is on in a website |
| 2024-12-22 02:42:08 +0100 | <orangeflu> | you know what, i might retry some profiling right now since it seems that the compiler decided to behave |
| 2024-12-22 02:42:15 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * would |
| 2024-12-22 02:43:30 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f1a2c0064c6ee858fd5dcfe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-12-22 02:43:54 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-12-22 02:45:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:45:39 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f1a2c0064c6ee858fd5dcfe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-12-22 02:46:39 +0100 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f52b5be3bacf47f1ed3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 02:50:27 +0100 | mhatta | (~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-12-22 02:51:05 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> oh this would be represented as a constant stream that changes contents as the user changes pages, right? |
| 2024-12-22 02:51:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh not "constant" stream, but continuous stream |
| 2024-12-22 02:52:01 +0100 | mhatta | (~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp) |
| 2024-12-22 02:52:01 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> e.g. a stream whose content is the unique ID of the current page |
| 2024-12-22 02:52:03 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> right? |
| 2024-12-22 02:56:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 02:59:51 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2024-12-22 03:00:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:11:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 03:11:54 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> orangeflu odd stuff, but I'm glad it got solved |
| 2024-12-22 03:16:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:18:00 +0100 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:22:45 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@125.63.162.34) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 03:30:37 +0100 | E2Combinator | (~E2Combina@190.180.45.137) () |
| 2024-12-22 03:33:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 03:33:33 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@125.63.162.34) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:37:03 +0100 | <orangeflu> | Bowuigi: I don't like that i don't know where it came from, and i still can't make profiling work |
| 2024-12-22 03:37:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:38:13 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Did you update or change any settings? |
| 2024-12-22 03:39:01 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i disabled test coverage |
| 2024-12-22 03:39:27 +0100 | <orangeflu> | waaaait |
| 2024-12-22 03:39:37 +0100 | <orangeflu> | it compiled with profiling |
| 2024-12-22 03:39:43 +0100 | <orangeflu> | stand-by for results |
| 2024-12-22 03:42:36 +0100 | <orangeflu> | nvm |
| 2024-12-22 03:47:14 +0100 | <orangeflu> | idk why it doesn't work. I try to build it wiht -prof, cabal complains i shouldn't do that. not like it matters, it gives an error anyway. Then i do cabal build --enable-profiling and then when i run it, no prog file is generated |
| 2024-12-22 03:47:28 +0100 | <orangeflu> | How this whole process is supposed to work is hideously explained |
| 2024-12-22 03:48:26 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 03:50:30 +0100 | <orangeflu> | ok, i ended up doing it |
| 2024-12-22 03:50:42 +0100 | <orangeflu> | you want the results? not sure how to interpret them |
| 2024-12-22 03:51:51 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> To be honest no idea how to profile either, but if it is a text file just drop it in https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 2024-12-22 03:52:40 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> In particular, allocation spikes is what you are looking for |
| 2024-12-22 03:52:59 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> in FRP, do we suppose there exists a stream between the user's ability-to-click and buttons? |
| 2024-12-22 03:53:00 +0100 | <orangeflu> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/b9owLIrr |
| 2024-12-22 03:53:41 +0100 | <geekosaur> | generally you need to compile with profiling (cabal will do this with --enable-profiling) and then run with profiling enabled (which is an RTS option: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.10.1/docs/users_guide/runtime_control.html#rts-profiling) |
| 2024-12-22 03:53:51 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 03:53:58 +0100 | <orangeflu> | am i reading it correctly when it says it allocated 914 megabytes? |
| 2024-12-22 03:54:07 +0100 | <orangeflu> | total alloc = 914,690,800 bytes (excludes profiling overheads) |
| 2024-12-22 03:55:08 +0100 | <orangeflu> | geekosaur: yeah, what i did is i added profiling: True in cabal.project.local, and these arguments to ghc-options: -fprof-auto "-with-rtsopts=-N -p -s -h -i0.1" |
| 2024-12-22 03:55:12 +0100 | <orangeflu> | and it seems to work now |
| 2024-12-22 03:57:50 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2024-12-22 03:57:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | also note that "total alloc" includes ephemeral allocations which never leave the nursery and can generally be ignored because they're very fast to both allocate and reclaim |
| 2024-12-22 03:58:24 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya re:current-page yes, a value that may change as time moves is represented like that |
| 2024-12-22 03:58:55 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> orangeflu the tables on the allocation report show how much time and allocation is used on every function |
| 2024-12-22 03:58:59 +0100 | <orangeflu> | geekosaur: still seems like a lot, for what the programs does |
| 2024-12-22 04:00:48 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya you might want to check the source for reactive-banana or some other FRP UI library, I don't know enough about that, sorry |
| 2024-12-22 04:01:45 +0100 | <orangeflu> | so what should i take away from this report? that the ST instruction takes a lot of time, since it's in a program where it's used a lot? |
| 2024-12-22 04:02:01 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I see ty |
| 2024-12-22 04:02:34 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> st might have a space leak, 961MB for bubble sort is too much lol |
| 2024-12-22 04:03:42 +0100 | <orangeflu> | yeah, but ST is used a lot in that program |
| 2024-12-22 04:04:07 +0100 | <orangeflu> | and if haskell allocates and deallocates those EmulatorState everytime i modify the arrays inside |
| 2024-12-22 04:04:14 +0100 | <orangeflu> | it would make sense to consume that much |
| 2024-12-22 04:04:20 +0100 | <orangeflu> | right? |
| 2024-12-22 04:04:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 04:04:47 +0100 | <orangeflu> | cause the ST instruction stores something in the memory, which is a 2000 bytes array |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:04 +0100 | op_4 | (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:06 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Oh could you move to MVector? |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:13 +0100 | <orangeflu> | I could |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:18 +0100 | <orangeflu> | already made plans to |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:29 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:34 +0100 | op_4 | (~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) op_4 |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:52 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i have an idea though. My emulator has configurable SRAM sizes. Let's see if the total allocation decreases if i give it less total SRAM |
| 2024-12-22 04:05:53 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Because GHC tries to make stuff mutable on lower layers, but it can't if large parts are modified (as in the case of Array) |
| 2024-12-22 04:06:14 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) (Max SendQ exceeded) |
| 2024-12-22 04:07:11 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 04:07:15 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 04:07:29 +0100 | <orangeflu> | memory allocation drops to 511 mb if i give it 500 bytes of SRAM instead |
| 2024-12-22 04:08:11 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Array does carding but the cards are fairly large |
| 2024-12-22 04:08:22 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The tree below indicates the local (with respect to the siblings of the tree and children) time and allocation usage |
| 2024-12-22 04:08:26 +0100 | <geekosaur> | 128 elements last I heard? |
| 2024-12-22 04:08:58 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:09:33 +0100 | <orangeflu> | if i use another assembly file, like one that doesn't write to memory at all, total allocation is 1-2 mb, and changing the memory size doesn't make that much of a difference |
| 2024-12-22 04:10:09 +0100 | <orangeflu> | geekosaur: carding? |
| 2024-12-22 04:10:32 +0100 | <geekosaur> | instead of GCing the entire array, it's divided into cards and individual cards are GCd |
| 2024-12-22 04:11:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | but f you touch elements in a lot of cards, it's slightly less performant than GCing the whole array; it works best if only nearby elements are modified |
| 2024-12-22 04:12:02 +0100 | <orangeflu> | but why GC the array in the first place is what i don't understand. Like, i assume the compiler is smart enough to see that i always take the array, modify it and return the copy. does that not imply that it should make it mutable behind the scenes? |
| 2024-12-22 04:12:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Not exactly, the compiler likely can't assume that |
| 2024-12-22 04:12:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if you're not modifying it, why was MVector the alternative? |
| 2024-12-22 04:13:09 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i am "modifying it", by making a copy of it with the element i want modified changed, and i return that instead |
| 2024-12-22 04:13:17 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It was being modified, orangeflu refers to copy/mutate semantics, not explicit cloning |
| 2024-12-22 04:13:32 +0100 | <orangeflu> | yeah |
| 2024-12-22 04:14:04 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So MVector would help here, as it has better fusion and is supposed to be mutable |
| 2024-12-22 04:14:44 +0100 | <orangeflu> | let me see if i can make a quick experiment to see how it would work |
| 2024-12-22 04:15:08 +0100 | <orangeflu> | but it may prove to be difficult because i would need to modify every function for every instruction, may take a while |
| 2024-12-22 04:15:40 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It is likely rebuilding the emulator state and array, but the only way to know for certain is to read the Core. That is way too far from a begginer topic |
| 2024-12-22 04:15:41 +0100 | <orangeflu> | and i never worked with monads in this way before |
| 2024-12-22 04:15:59 +0100 | <orangeflu> | is the Core in haskell? |
| 2024-12-22 04:18:08 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> With "Core" I mean GHC Core, one of the intermediate representations of Haskell code used in GHC, specifically, the one that seems to have the most influence in the compilation result while being functional |
| 2024-12-22 04:19:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Practice with MVector outside of the emulator (and possibly with the strict state monad, the recommendation that was made yesterday) before implementing it, to understand it better |
| 2024-12-22 04:19:44 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Core is kinda a simplified Haskell, but with annotations for things like strictness of parameters which guide optimization |
| 2024-12-22 04:19:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 04:22:35 +0100 | <orangeflu> | By strict state monad, what do you mean? |
| 2024-12-22 04:24:36 +0100 | <orangeflu> | ST? |
| 2024-12-22 04:26:32 +0100 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/libraries/mtl-2.3.1-a17d/Control-Monad-State-Strict.… |
| 2024-12-22 04:26:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:27:07 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 04:27:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ST is not "state" in the same sense, it is an execution context with private state in the form of STRefs and STArrays |
| 2024-12-22 04:30:08 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i wish i knew what you were trying to say |
| 2024-12-22 04:30:51 +0100 | <orangeflu> | when i was trying to understand monads, i thought "after i get this, everything else will be easy, this is the hardest thing ever" |
| 2024-12-22 04:30:52 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the concept behind ST is a bit difficult to understand, yes |
| 2024-12-22 04:30:55 +0100 | <orangeflu> | apparently not |
| 2024-12-22 04:32:29 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@ppp203-122-213-191.static.internode.on.net) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 04:33:08 +0100 | <geekosaur> | when we talk about threads, we normally talk about CPU threads. ST is a difference concept, a state thread. instead of representing a separate CPU execution environment, it's a separate local state environment. in Haskell this means you have access to mutable data within the thread that can't be accessed outside of it |
| 2024-12-22 04:35:33 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the best explanation is probably one in the paper linked at the top of the Control.Monad.ST documentation |
| 2024-12-22 04:36:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | also, trust me, you haven't by far exhausted the complexities of Haskell |
| 2024-12-22 04:37:49 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 04:37:50 +0100 | <geekosaur> | rank-N types (which you're on the border of with ST), STM (software transactional memory), type level programming, … the list goes on |
| 2024-12-22 04:38:29 +0100 | <orangeflu> | you might as well be speaking dutch |
| 2024-12-22 04:41:16 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that was kinda the point 🙂 |
| 2024-12-22 04:42:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:43:25 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i am already stuck with this vector |
| 2024-12-22 04:43:43 +0100 | td_ | (~td@i53870903.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:45:03 +0100 | alecs | (~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) alecs |
| 2024-12-22 04:45:39 +0100 | td_ | (~td@i5387092A.versanet.de) td_ |
| 2024-12-22 04:49:24 +0100 | alecs | (~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:49:42 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i can't even create an mvector, it doesn't let me |
| 2024-12-22 04:53:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 04:55:13 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-12-22 04:57:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 04:59:12 +0100 | <orangeflu> | how do i unwrap from ST? |
| 2024-12-22 04:59:37 +0100 | <c_wraith> | :t runST |
| 2024-12-22 04:59:38 +0100 | <lambdabot> | (forall s. ST s a) -> a |
| 2024-12-22 05:00:15 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i thought so too but it doesnt work |
| 2024-12-22 05:00:40 +0100 | <c_wraith> | it does if you aren't trying to leak things that you're not supposed to |
| 2024-12-22 05:00:48 +0100 | <orangeflu> | Couldn't match type: M.MVector s Int with: IO a0 |
| 2024-12-22 05:00:58 +0100 | <orangeflu> | leak? |
| 2024-12-22 05:01:14 +0100 | <c_wraith> | ST is designed to prevent mutable values from leaking into pure code. |
| 2024-12-22 05:01:27 +0100 | <c_wraith> | but if you're getting an error about IO, you're doing something else wrong. |
| 2024-12-22 05:01:47 +0100 | <orangeflu> | probably because i am running this in main |
| 2024-12-22 05:04:22 +0100 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2024-12-22 05:08:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 05:09:12 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i think i made it work somehow |
| 2024-12-22 05:09:48 +0100 | <orangeflu> | but i had to make like 3 functions just to set a value and return it, and i lost the vector |
| 2024-12-22 05:11:32 +0100 | dostoevsky | (~dostoevsk@user/dostoevsky) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 05:13:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:13:30 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm |
| 2024-12-22 05:13:36 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's the right way to think of switches in FRP? |
| 2024-12-22 05:13:54 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> e.g. if a switch has two possible targets, do we think of it as a function from one signal to two signals? |
| 2024-12-22 05:13:56 +0100 | <monochrom> | A stream of booleans? |
| 2024-12-22 05:14:22 +0100 | <monochrom> | If the two signals are mutually exclusive then it is just one signal of two states. |
| 2024-12-22 05:14:56 +0100 | <monochrom> | or 3 states if they are {0, 1, neither} |
| 2024-12-22 05:15:34 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, I'm not sure I understand. don't we think of a switch as changing the target signal? |
| 2024-12-22 05:16:00 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> like network switches |
| 2024-12-22 05:16:17 +0100 | <monochrom> | A long time ago, Shannon already turned switches into logic gates, so still just booleans. |
| 2024-12-22 05:17:16 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> we're talking about e.g. Yampa switches here right? |
| 2024-12-22 05:18:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | Are they really non-isomorphic to relays? |
| 2024-12-22 05:18:56 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> I don't know, here's the type "switch :: SF i (o, Event e) -> (e -> SF i o) -> SF i o" |
| 2024-12-22 05:19:00 +0100 | <orangeflu> | c_wraith: so, if i understand correctly, everywhere i need to modify the mvector, it needs to return ST s (MVector s Int). Just to read it, i need to be in at least ST s Int. Then how do I reconcile that with getting user input and stuff. I have a bunch of other monads i need to think about in my REPL, that need to take input from the user and so on. But if i escape this ST by running through runST, i |
| 2024-12-22 05:19:06 +0100 | <orangeflu> | lose the vector, right? |
| 2024-12-22 05:23:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 05:24:27 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:27:06 +0100 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cf6:8000:f088:f772:a53:8f63) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:27:45 +0100 | aforemny | (~aforemny@89.244.199.39) aforemny |
| 2024-12-22 05:28:35 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:30:13 +0100 | <c_wraith> | orangeflu: The point of ST is that you encapsulate *all* the mutation in a single call to runST. You return an immutable value. |
| 2024-12-22 05:32:43 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> orangeflu you have to create the MVector in IO, not in ST |
| 2024-12-22 05:33:08 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So you allocate the memory in main as usual, but instead of creating an array you create an MVector |
| 2024-12-22 05:33:21 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Bowuigi: eh? If you want to mutate it in ST, you need to allocate it in ST. |
| 2024-12-22 05:36:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 05:36:01 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The idea was to have an MVector on IO, not on ST |
| 2024-12-22 05:36:02 +0100 | <orangeflu> | how do i return an immutable value? |
| 2024-12-22 05:36:30 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> What |
| 2024-12-22 05:36:43 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Eh, I started answering questions starting from "what's the eliminator for ST" |
| 2024-12-22 05:37:37 +0100 | <c_wraith> | If you're using IO mutable vectors, ignore everything about ST. |
| 2024-12-22 05:37:37 +0100 | <orangeflu> | c_wraith said "you return an immutable value". So i go in ST or IO, mutate it however i wish based on what the instruction needs to do, then when i remove it from IO, it becomes immutable? |
| 2024-12-22 05:39:41 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> c_wraith Some context, orangeflu is writing an emulator. This emulator has a fixed memory, which used to be in an Array. This caused space leaks, so I and [exa] suggested using an MVector because it provides benefits on this use case |
| 2024-12-22 05:40:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:41:13 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> orangeflu the idea is to run the modifications on IO only (ST also works but it's not what we want here), that's what the "PrimMonad" stuff means |
| 2024-12-22 05:41:18 +0100 | <c_wraith> | That's a kind of bad way to avoid space leaks. It's better to write code that uses space invariants properly. But it has enough other benefits that it's still worth doing. |
| 2024-12-22 05:41:47 +0100 | <c_wraith> | (It's likely to not avoid space leaks) |
| 2024-12-22 05:43:35 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The Array here was used as if it was a mutable one (it was the original idea, but the name Array was somewhat misleading since it isn't a C array) |
| 2024-12-22 05:45:26 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 05:49:10 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 2024-12-22 05:50:33 +0100 | <orangeflu> | well, the idea is to transition to mvectors, but i thought it would be easier. I am also using InputT IO (EmulatorState) in my REPL because i am using haskeline, so not sure how that is going to affect things with mvector. Also, there is also the functionality for reading a file and then ditching the IO after that, before executing |
| 2024-12-22 05:50:50 +0100 | <orangeflu> | Does that mean now I will need to have IO everywhere? |
| 2024-12-22 05:51:18 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:51:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> c_wraith you might be able to help more with this, the codebase is in https://github.com/Flu/avr-emulator and the profiling results are in https://paste.tomsmeding.com/b9owLIrr |
| 2024-12-22 05:51:38 +0100 | <orangeflu> | This seems more trouble than its worth considering I don't even understand how to use, let alone modify all my pure functions into using it atop of my InputT IO stuff |
| 2024-12-22 05:52:25 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> With MVector you need something like IO everywhere yes. Haskell optimization is not for begginners |
| 2024-12-22 05:52:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 05:52:47 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Just like optimization in other languages ofc |
| 2024-12-22 05:53:42 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> There might be a more obvious refactor that we missed tho |
| 2024-12-22 05:54:35 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i'm sure i did a horrible job of writing this and there are a bunch of stuff that make no sense or could be optimized heavily |
| 2024-12-22 05:55:02 +0100 | <orangeflu> | thing is, this is both a learning project and something that i want to be useful |
| 2024-12-22 05:55:39 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:56:01 +0100 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 05:56:06 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> MVector is a somewhat extreme solution, mutable stuff is fairly common in heavily optimized programs/libraries like smalltt or flatparse (there are a lot more examples but I know those two more in depth than anything else) |
| 2024-12-22 05:56:33 +0100 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |
| 2024-12-22 05:57:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 05:58:10 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Hmmm moving to a strict state monad to handle your emulator state could also help. It attacks space leaks more directly and is a smaller change |
| 2024-12-22 05:58:10 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 06:00:55 +0100 | <orangeflu> | i know what a state monad is, i think. like, if i have a function, that takes a container and returns a modified container and a result, i can chain them together with do notation. that's what i understand anyway. But how is that different from what i'm doing now? except for the fact that i don't chain them in a do block (which wouldn't be useful anyway, cause i don't execute instructions that way |
| 2024-12-22 06:01:02 +0100 | <orangeflu> | anyway) |
| 2024-12-22 06:02:43 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Passing state around in a strict way, along with nice syntax sugar is what this is supposed to do |
| 2024-12-22 06:03:41 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 06:03:41 +0100 | <orangeflu> | when you say 'strict', do you mean not lazily? |
| 2024-12-22 06:04:16 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yes, but not eagerly either |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:18 +0100 | <orangeflu> | c_wraith: what do you think about the project? |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:18 +0100 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:18 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:35 +0100 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:41 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2024-12-22 06:05:55 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-12-22 06:06:35 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> "Eager" is "fully evaluate", "Strict" is "evaluate only what I'm directly responsible for" and "Lazy" is "evaluate only what I will pattern match on, as I pattern match on it". Or at least that seems to be the general consensus |
| 2024-12-22 06:07:30 +0100 | <orangeflu> | and why is the laziness causing me space leaks while strictness wouldn't? |
| 2024-12-22 06:07:52 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 06:08:37 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Space leaks are caused by duplication of code, code is duplicated wherever variables are duplicated in lazy evaluation |
| 2024-12-22 06:09:37 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Strict evaluation would evaluate the value once and possibly duplicate other computations inside that value |
| 2024-12-22 06:10:10 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@37.228.252.73) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 06:10:45 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@213.233.155.134) |
| 2024-12-22 06:10:45 +0100 | <monochrom> | Ugh no, strictness is a denotational notion, not an operational (evaluation) notion. A strict function means f bottom = bottom. |
| 2024-12-22 06:11:46 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So what do you call the operational notion? |
| 2024-12-22 06:12:02 +0100 | <monochrom> | denotational means you only talk about whether you get an answer and what answer if yes, it deliberately avoids how the computer manages to do it. |
| 2024-12-22 06:12:09 +0100 | <monochrom> | eager and lazy |
| 2024-12-22 06:12:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> That's why I prefer working with total languages lol |
| 2024-12-22 06:12:34 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Oh there we go |
| 2024-12-22 06:12:44 +0100 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 06:13:16 +0100 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) chexum |
| 2024-12-22 06:13:16 +0100 | <monochrom> | there is also speculative evaluation, it can result in non-strict while being even more eager than eager. |
| 2024-12-22 06:13:46 +0100 | <monochrom> | So even the "eager : lazy :: strict : non-strict" "correspondence" is easily broken. |
| 2024-12-22 06:14:59 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 06:15:40 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So the duplication is operational right? |
| 2024-12-22 06:16:58 +0100 | <monochrom> | Yes absolutely. If you want to predict how much time and how much space are spent, they emphatically require knowing the evaluation strategy, i.e., operational. |
| 2024-12-22 06:17:32 +0100 | <monochrom> | Denotational semantics strives to (even prides in) avoid talking about them. |
| 2024-12-22 06:17:42 +0100 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 06:17:53 +0100 | poscat0x04 | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2024-12-22 06:21:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I see, yeah Haskell can be hard to understand sometimes lol |
| 2024-12-22 06:23:54 +0100 | <monochrom> | Having said that, if you say you are only using GHC, then you know it almost sticks to "use lazy for non-strict, use eager for strict". But there are occasional deviations when the code optimizer thinks it's more efficient to do it some other way. |
| 2024-12-22 06:25:14 +0100 | ryanbooker | (uid4340@id-4340.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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| 2024-12-22 07:37:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 07:41:38 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 07:43:06 +0100 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) hiredman |
| 2024-12-22 07:43:51 +0100 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) youthlic |
| 2024-12-22 07:44:54 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-12-22 07:50:40 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@213.233.155.134) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 07:52:23 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 07:54:34 +0100 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-12-22 08:00:59 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-12-22 08:01:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:01:59 +0100 | <jaava> | hi discovered haskell through xmonad but now i'm curious about using it for other things |
| 2024-12-22 08:02:48 +0100 | <jaava> | is haskell good for physics simulations where one would probably lean towards c++, fortran or python depending on the use case? |
| 2024-12-22 08:09:12 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-12-22 08:12:15 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 08:16:49 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:20:55 +0100 | flukiluke | (~m-7humut@2603:c023:c000:6c7e:8945:ad24:9113:a962) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 08:22:11 +0100 | flukiluke | (~m-7humut@2603:c023:c000:6c7e:8945:ad24:9113:a962) flukiluke |
| 2024-12-22 08:23:05 +0100 | ephilalethes | (~noumenon@202.186.203.84) noumenon |
| 2024-12-22 08:28:08 +0100 | <iqubic> | Looks like Hoogle is down right now due to an SSL handshake failure. |
| 2024-12-22 08:28:37 +0100 | <iqubic> | Oh, refreshing seems to have fixed it. |
| 2024-12-22 08:29:54 +0100 | <iqubic> | Actually, it seems a bit inconsistent right now. |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:17 +0100 | <jaava> | I didn't know hoogle was a thing |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:30 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:32 +0100 | <iqubic> | hoogle is great |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:37 +0100 | <iqubic> | @whereis hoogle |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:37 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: where+ where |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:44 +0100 | <iqubic> | @where hoogle |
| 2024-12-22 08:31:44 +0100 | <lambdabot> | https://hoogle.haskell.org |
| 2024-12-22 08:32:02 +0100 | <jaava> | nice thanks |
| 2024-12-22 08:32:22 +0100 | <iqubic> | If you have a question of "do any functions exist that match a given type signature?" that's a really useful tool. |
| 2024-12-22 08:32:30 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 08:32:42 +0100 | <jaava> | there's so much software for haskell I can't believe no one ever talks about it. at least in my world |
| 2024-12-22 08:36:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:36:56 +0100 | N0ping | (~N0ping@31-208-56-179.cust.bredband2.com) |
| 2024-12-22 08:38:05 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 08:39:39 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-12-22 08:41:34 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-12-22 08:42:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:47:51 +0100 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 08:48:01 +0100 | monochrm | (trebla@216.138.220.146) |
| 2024-12-22 08:48:25 +0100 | monochrm | monochrom |
| 2024-12-22 08:51:24 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 2024-12-22 08:53:23 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 08:53:25 +0100 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf117cbda8ce35cba2c9a19e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 08:57:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:00:03 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-12-22 09:00:08 +0100 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-12-22 09:00:40 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-12-22 09:01:26 +0100 | target_i | (~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i |
| 2024-12-22 09:02:10 +0100 | N0ping | (~N0ping@31-208-56-179.cust.bredband2.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:03:53 +0100 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) tt1231 |
| 2024-12-22 09:05:23 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 09:06:49 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 09:09:41 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 09:13:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 09:16:08 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-12-22 09:17:28 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) img |
| 2024-12-22 09:18:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:21:14 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 09:28:57 +0100 | <hellwolf> | which one do you use the most. |
| 2024-12-22 09:29:08 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 09:30:23 +0100 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2024-12-22 09:33:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:39:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 09:44:38 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:45:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 09:46:16 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-12-22 09:48:17 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-12-22 09:49:50 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-12-22 09:51:50 +0100 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f49b5be3bacf47f1ed3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-12-22 09:57:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 09:57:44 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-12-22 10:03:45 +0100 | jaava | (~nick@syn-076-035-209-158.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-12-22 10:03:57 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@64.43.50.117) |
| 2024-12-22 10:04:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:15:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 10:19:49 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:22:30 +0100 | yuuta | (~YuutaW@2404:f4c0:f9c3:502::100:17b7) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:22:55 +0100 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2024-12-22 10:26:06 +0100 | YuutaW | (~YuutaW@2404:f4c0:f9c3:502::100:17b7) YuutaW |
| 2024-12-22 10:30:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 10:36:18 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 10:36:36 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:40:06 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 10:41:32 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-12-22 10:41:36 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 10:42:17 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:42:17 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 10:44:22 +0100 | ephilalethes | (~noumenon@202.186.203.84) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 10:44:50 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 10:54:01 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 10:57:07 +0100 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-12-22 10:58:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:00:57 +0100 | econo_ | (uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-12-22 11:02:32 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2024-12-22 11:06:03 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-12-22 11:09:23 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 11:11:46 +0100 | l_k | (~student@46.61.242.35) |
| 2024-12-22 11:13:41 +0100 | student | (~student@85.172.111.189) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:14:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:17:32 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 2024-12-22 11:19:03 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla |
| 2024-12-22 11:23:59 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-12-22 11:24:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 11:29:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:35:55 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:38:25 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en) |
| 2024-12-22 11:40:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 11:41:29 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f236f0034c2c833107a461e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-12-22 11:47:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 11:57:57 +0100 | Lain_ | (~Lain@102.211.6.62) |
| 2024-12-22 11:58:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 11:58:54 +0100 | driib318 | (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-12-22 11:59:17 +0100 | Lain_ | (~Lain@102.211.6.62) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 12:00:12 +0100 | Piedro | (~Piedro@213.226.141.133) Piedro |
| 2024-12-22 12:00:14 +0100 | driib318 | (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) driib |
| 2024-12-22 12:01:58 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:02:49 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:04:24 +0100 | driib318 | (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-12-22 12:05:14 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-350e-cece-a50d-b49e-108d-0242.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-12-22 12:06:14 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-12-22 12:06:21 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2024-12-22 12:08:51 +0100 | driib318 | (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) driib |
| 2024-12-22 12:10:42 +0100 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:13:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 12:15:13 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:2da:8900:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen |
| 2024-12-22 12:17:52 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:20:48 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@37-33-152-6.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 2024-12-22 12:21:07 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@37-33-152-6.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Changing host) |
| 2024-12-22 12:21:07 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@user/homo) homo |
| 2024-12-22 12:23:33 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:2da:8900:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:24:42 +0100 | homo | (~homo@user/homo) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:26:08 +0100 | homo_ | homo |
| 2024-12-22 12:27:07 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@37-33-136-207.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 2024-12-22 12:28:54 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@37-33-136-207.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Changing host) |
| 2024-12-22 12:28:54 +0100 | homo_ | (~homo@user/homo) homo |
| 2024-12-22 12:28:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 12:30:15 +0100 | homo | (~homo@user/homo) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:30:21 +0100 | homo_ | homo |
| 2024-12-22 12:30:40 +0100 | Piedro | (~Piedro@213.226.141.133) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:32:27 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 12:33:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:39:33 +0100 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh |
| 2024-12-22 12:41:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 12:45:53 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 12:47:50 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@124.187.109.206) (Quit: Nothing to see here. I wasn't there. I take IRC seriously.) |
| 2024-12-22 12:51:19 +0100 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar |
| 2024-12-22 12:51:39 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2024-12-22 12:54:23 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 12:56:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 13:01:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 13:03:04 +0100 | youthlic | (~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic) |
| 2024-12-22 13:04:06 +0100 | mrmr155334346318 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!) |
| 2024-12-22 13:04:22 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@64.43.50.117) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-12-22 13:11:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 13:16:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 13:17:23 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-350e-cece-a50d-b49e-108d-0242.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 13:27:16 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 13:27:44 +0100 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot |
| 2024-12-22 13:31:56 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2024-12-22 13:32:02 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 13:34:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 13:35:29 +0100 | mrmr155334346318 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) mrmr |
| 2024-12-22 13:42:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 13:46:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 13:47:14 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-350e-cece-fc33-ab37-4fc7-9825.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-12-22 13:49:49 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Quit: ljdarj) |
| 2024-12-22 13:50:14 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-12-22 13:57:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 14:02:26 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:04:26 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@149.40.50.111) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:08:40 +0100 | califax_ | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
| 2024-12-22 14:08:58 +0100 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 14:09:54 +0100 | califax_ | califax |
| 2024-12-22 14:11:46 +0100 | kronicmage | (~kronicmag@neotame.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:12:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 14:15:36 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 14:15:40 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:15:40 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 14:18:06 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:25:36 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) |
| 2024-12-22 14:28:16 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 14:30:40 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) son0p |
| 2024-12-22 14:33:06 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:38:45 +0100 | ft | (~ft@p508db070.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 14:38:57 +0100 | ft | (~ft@p508db070.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft |
| 2024-12-22 14:40:34 +0100 | ft | (~ft@p508db070.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-12-22 14:40:45 +0100 | ft | (~ft@p508db070.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft |
| 2024-12-22 14:43:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 14:47:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 14:50:41 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-12-22 14:52:57 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-12-22 14:58:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-12-22 15:08:11 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-350e-cece-fc33-ab37-4fc7-9825.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 15:11:55 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en) |
| 2024-12-22 15:13:20 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:15:05 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:16:36 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 15:21:37 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:22:32 +0100 | zenmov | (~zenmov@user/zenmov) zenmov |
| 2024-12-22 15:26:57 +0100 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:27:55 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2024-12-22 15:31:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-12-22 15:36:28 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:42:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 15:43:16 +0100 | manwithluck | (~manwithlu@194.177.28.164) manwithluck |
| 2024-12-22 15:45:30 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-12-22 15:47:12 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@p3704193-ipxg12201sapodori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:48:22 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 15:51:08 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-12-22 15:59:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 16:03:25 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-12-22 16:04:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:06:02 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2024-12-22 16:07:42 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2024-12-22 16:14:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 16:18:40 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:19:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:30:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 16:31:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> I recall reading somewhere that modal types are given by monads |
| 2024-12-22 16:31:49 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> can Haskell monads simulate modal types? |
| 2024-12-22 16:32:17 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:33:26 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2024-12-22 16:34:57 +0100 | <ncf> | do you mean anything precise by that |
| 2024-12-22 16:35:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:36:08 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> well this could be a way to make that precise: a monad-encoding of a modal type is inhabited iff it's corresponding modal type is inhabited |
| 2024-12-22 16:38:00 +0100 | <albet70> | hello everyone |
| 2024-12-22 16:39:21 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-12-22 16:40:29 +0100 | <albet70> | how to share or passing one variable between two async function? like there are async function f and g, jump between f and g with one variable so that f and g can both modify |
| 2024-12-22 16:45:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 16:47:13 +0100 | <geekosaur> | STM is the usual method |
| 2024-12-22 16:47:25 +0100 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2024-12-22 16:51:32 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:51:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 16:52:13 +0100 | <probie> | If it's just a single variable, `MVar`s might be sufficient |
| 2024-12-22 16:53:03 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-12-22 16:59:03 +0100 | <albet70> | what mvar is based on? |
| 2024-12-22 16:59:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it's a primitive synchronization variable |
| 2024-12-22 17:00:08 +0100 | <geekosaur> | well, not primitive, MutVar# is the primitive |
| 2024-12-22 17:00:26 +0100 | <geekosaur> | but it's a very low level thing |
| 2024-12-22 17:01:15 +0100 | <int-e> | MutVar# != MVar# (MutVar# is STRef/IORef) |
| 2024-12-22 17:01:21 +0100 | <ski> | thirdofmay18081814goya : "possible"-type modalities would be the ones which could be monadic, while "neccesary"-type ones could be comonadic |
| 2024-12-22 17:02:09 +0100 | <albet70> | I learned scheme a few years ago, I saw a article about call/cc to do coroutine, it can jump between two functions with variable, but I can't find that article now |
| 2024-12-22 17:02:25 +0100 | <geekosaur> | anyway, AIUI one shared var in entire program is atomicModifyIORef, one shared between two given threads is MVar, anything more requires something more complex and STM is preferred these days |
| 2024-12-22 17:02:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | otherwise you risk deadlocks |
| 2024-12-22 17:03:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 17:03:14 +0100 | <int-e> | . o O ( deadlocks are bad, let's starve instead ) |
| 2024-12-22 17:03:23 +0100 | <albet70> | like it capture k1 inside f, then call g with k1, then capture g's rest as k2, it jumps to k1 with k2 |
| 2024-12-22 17:04:26 +0100 | <albet70> | what that is called? |
| 2024-12-22 17:07:11 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ski: I see! ty |
| 2024-12-22 17:07:45 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:18:35 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 17:18:55 +0100 | swistak | (~swistak@185.21.216.141) (Quit: bye bye) |
| 2024-12-22 17:19:01 +0100 | roosterphant_ | (~roosterph@185.21.217.76) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 17:19:12 +0100 | swistak | (~swistak@185.21.216.141) |
| 2024-12-22 17:19:24 +0100 | roosterphant | (~roosterph@185.21.217.76) |
| 2024-12-22 17:20:50 +0100 | alecs | (~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) alecs |
| 2024-12-22 17:22:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:25:07 +0100 | alecs | (~alecs@61.pool85-58-154.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:25:19 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-12-22 17:31:17 +0100 | <ski> | thirdofmay18081814goya : if `<>' represents "possibility" of some kind (alethic ("possible"), temporal ("sometimes","eventually/later","earlier/before"), epistemic ("is consistent with my knowledge / might hold for all i know"), doxastic ("is consistent with my belief", deontic ("permissible"), provability ("is consistent with derivability in the formal system"), ..), then if we assume `A |- B' holds, then |
| 2024-12-22 17:31:23 +0100 | <ski> | we can derive `A |- <> B' (under the condition of `A', `B' holds, so `B' is possible), and then we can derive `<> A |- <> B' (should `A' hold only possibly, `B' will then still hold possibly). first step is monadic unit |
| 2024-12-22 17:32:15 +0100 | <ski> | (`return'). second step is monadic extension (`(=<<)', `(>>=)'/"bind") |
| 2024-12-22 17:33:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 17:37:28 +0100 | <ski> | thirdofmay18081814goya : if `[]' represents "necessity" of some kind (alethic ("necessary"), temporal ("always","henceforth/hereafter","hitherto/heretofore"), epistemic ("is known by me"), doxastic ("is believed by me", deontic ("obligatory"), provability ("is provable in the formal system"), ..), then if we assume `A |- B' holds, then we can derive `[] A |- B' (under the stronger condition of `A' holding |
| 2024-12-22 17:37:34 +0100 | <ski> | necessarily, `A' still holds, so `B' is also still holds), and then we can derive `[] A |- [] B' (when `A' holds even necessarily, `B' will then also hold necessarily). first step is comonadic unit (`extract'). second step is comonadic "preservation" (`(<<=)', `(=>>)') |
| 2024-12-22 17:38:15 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:38:36 +0100 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:39:48 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 17:40:17 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:40:18 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 17:40:29 +0100 | <ski> | more generally, one can have a rule that if `[] Gamma |- A' (where `Gamma' is a collection of hypotheses considered conjunctively, and `[] Gamma' means `[]' applied to each one of them, individually), then `[] Gamma |- [] A' (or even : if `[] Gamma |- A , <> Delta', then `[] Gamma |- [] A , <> Delta', where `Delta' is a collection taken disjunctively (`,' on the right of `|-' means "or" roughly, while to the |
| 2024-12-22 17:40:35 +0100 | <ski> | left it means "and" roughly)) |
| 2024-12-22 17:42:45 +0100 | <ski> | and, symmetrically, we can have a rule that if `[] Gamma , A |- <> Delta', then `[] Gamma , <> A |- <> Delta' |
| 2024-12-22 17:44:37 +0100 | toch | (toch@user/toch) (Quit: WeeChat 4.5.0) |
| 2024-12-22 17:44:38 +0100 | <ski> | (or, if we want to restrict to single conclusions, just : if `[] Gamma , A |- <> B', then `[] Gamma , <> A |- <> B') |
| 2024-12-22 17:45:19 +0100 | toch | (toch@user/toch) toch |
| 2024-12-22 17:45:37 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> woah thank you very much for the extensive comments! I'm studying these |
| 2024-12-22 17:45:51 +0100 | <ski> | albet70 : sounds like coroutines |
| 2024-12-22 17:46:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 17:49:34 +0100 | <albet70> | ski , but that coroutine passing variable between two functions |
| 2024-12-22 17:50:25 +0100 | <albet70> | or say passing function inside context into another function |
| 2024-12-22 17:50:38 +0100 | econo_ | (uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) |
| 2024-12-22 17:50:48 +0100 | <albet70> | how to archive that with async? |
| 2024-12-22 17:51:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:53:36 +0100 | <ski> | thirdofmay18081814goya : from what i've seen, it's more common for formalize modal logics in axiomatic / Hilbert-style (with possible axioms like `[] A |- A',`[] A |- [] [] A',`A |- [] <> A',`[] A |- <> A',`<> A |- [] <> A ',&c. depending on the particular modal logic in question that we're formalizing), rather than in a natural deduction, or in a sequent calculus (what i sketched above) style |
| 2024-12-22 17:55:00 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 17:55:03 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 17:55:03 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 17:56:19 +0100 | <ski> | albet70 : dunno whether it'd be reasonable with `async'. passing data (and not just the frozen control point) as "baton" back and forth between coroutines requires them to know about each other, or at least about the interface of the other(s), so would seem to assume synchronous communication |
| 2024-12-22 17:57:02 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-12-22 17:58:28 +0100 | <ski> | albet70 : btw, i literally did the "like it capture k1 inside f, then call g with k1, then capture g's rest as k2, it jumps to k1 with k2" thing, in Haskell, to do coroutines, to be able to jump back and forth between two parallel (and a priori independent) traversals of two data structures, combining their data "pointwise"/"coordinatewise"/"in lockstep" |
| 2024-12-22 17:59:50 +0100 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 18:00:21 +0100 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue |
| 2024-12-22 18:00:33 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 18:01:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 18:01:40 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:01:40 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2024-12-22 18:06:15 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:07:02 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2024-12-22 18:07:33 +0100 | toch | (toch@user/toch) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:09:28 +0100 | sinbad | (~sinbad@user/sinbad) Sinbad |
| 2024-12-22 18:09:39 +0100 | toch | (toch@user/toch) toch |
| 2024-12-22 18:10:54 +0100 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh |
| 2024-12-22 18:11:33 +0100 | <sinbad> | How can I parse an empty line ("/n/n") between non-empty lines using readP? |
| 2024-12-22 18:13:33 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:22:46 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Usually you approach it from the other direction |
| 2024-12-22 18:23:23 +0100 | <c_wraith> | match the newlines in the stuff you care about. throw a (char '\n') parser between them. |
| 2024-12-22 18:23:50 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Note that you need to be using backslashes (\) for escape codes, not forward slashes (/) |
| 2024-12-22 18:24:48 +0100 | <sinbad> | c_wraith: yes I should have used \ |
| 2024-12-22 18:25:11 +0100 | <probie> | Assuming you already know the last line wasn't empty, perhaps something like `count 2 (char "\n") >> look >>= \case { ('\n':_) -> pfail; _ -> pure () }` |
| 2024-12-22 18:26:22 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Here's my day 19 aoc parser. It literally matches (string "\n\n") at one point. https://github.com/chowells79/aoc/blob/main/2024/Day19.hs#L21-L31 |
| 2024-12-22 18:27:49 +0100 | zenmov | (~zenmov@user/zenmov) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:29:13 +0100 | <c_wraith> | And my day 17 parser: https://github.com/chowells79/aoc/blob/main/2024/Day17.hs#L33-L48 . It matches a series of lines including the terminal \n, then matches one more \n before the next section. |
| 2024-12-22 18:29:20 +0100 | <c_wraith> | Those are the two main ways |
| 2024-12-22 18:29:21 +0100 | <albet70> | ski , how you did it? |
| 2024-12-22 18:29:24 +0100 | <enikar> | sinbad: use (string "\n\n") |
| 2024-12-22 18:29:35 +0100 | <enikar> | it's what I use |
| 2024-12-22 18:30:05 +0100 | <albet70> | I found that 'yield' in python can do that |
| 2024-12-22 18:30:41 +0100 | <enikar> | ah! yield in python is awesome |
| 2024-12-22 18:31:23 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 18:32:16 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 18:32:56 +0100 | <monochrom> | You can make your own yield in Haskell: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#yield |
| 2024-12-22 18:34:45 +0100 | <albet70> | call/cc in scheme can capture the outside/rest code of call/cc, I don't think Cont or callCC in haskell can do that |
| 2024-12-22 18:35:24 +0100 | <albet70> | callCC only capture what is inside callCC |
| 2024-12-22 18:35:27 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) son0p |
| 2024-12-22 18:36:21 +0100 | <enikar> | there are arguments against call/cc. |
| 2024-12-22 18:36:54 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:38:00 +0100 | <ski> | albet70 : the challenge was to implement `zipWith' (or `zip', if you prefer), only traversing either input list (and only once), with a single call to `foldr' for each, not inspecting the lists in any way apart from that |
| 2024-12-22 18:38:11 +0100 | <sinbad> | c_wraith: thank you |
| 2024-12-22 18:38:34 +0100 | <enikar> | albet70: https://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html |
| 2024-12-22 18:38:44 +0100 | <ski> | `callCC' is delimited by the `runCont'/`runContT', yes |
| 2024-12-22 18:39:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:41:42 +0100 | <ski> | (albet70 : and no recursive computation needed/permitted, apart from the one inside `foldr') |
| 2024-12-22 18:41:51 +0100 | <albet70> | enikar , but call/cc still in r4rs? |
| 2024-12-22 18:42:33 +0100 | <albet70> | ski , what's the delimited continuation |
| 2024-12-22 18:44:36 +0100 | <probie> | ski: That sounds like a fun challenge. I think I'll have a go |
| 2024-12-22 18:45:24 +0100 | <ski> | evalCont ca = ca `runCont` id -- `id' here is the initial ("empty") delimited/composable continuation |
| 2024-12-22 18:46:19 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-12-22 18:47:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 18:47:41 +0100 | <enikar> | albet70: yes, r4rs is quite old. |
| 2024-12-22 18:48:21 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-12-22 18:49:12 +0100 | <ski> | probie : i first solved it (out of curiosity), around 2007-04-10 (and made a smaller edit for elegance and generality, in 2011-06-14) |
| 2024-12-22 18:51:12 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty) |
| 2024-12-22 18:52:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 18:57:27 +0100 | <albet70> | can I say callCC is delimited continuation and call/cc is full contit? |
| 2024-12-22 18:58:45 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:00:13 +0100 | Guest78 | (~Guest78@2a02:8084:1:6500::db) |
| 2024-12-22 19:02:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 19:09:12 +0100 | <monochrom> | callCC is global because there is no reset to scope it. |
| 2024-12-22 19:09:28 +0100 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 2024-12-22 19:09:43 +0100 | <monochrom> | Of course you get to say "but only within runCont" but it is not like you really have multiple levels of runCont. |
| 2024-12-22 19:10:06 +0100 | <monochrom> | Whereas with shift-reset you really always have multiple levels. |
| 2024-12-22 19:11:02 +0100 | <monochrom> | As Oleg points out, call/cc is not very nice. shift-reset is better. Even the Haskell Cont library provides shift-reset. |
| 2024-12-22 19:11:45 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:11:47 +0100 | <albet70> | is that redis distributed lock very like MVar? |
| 2024-12-22 19:12:55 +0100 | <monochrom> | And Python's yield corresponds to shift-reset rather than call/cc. https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/yield.pdf |
| 2024-12-22 19:13:30 +0100 | <albet70> | monochrom , callCC can capture the rest code which is after it? |
| 2024-12-22 19:15:10 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@125.63.162.34) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 19:18:02 +0100 | <monochrom> | Although, when you instead look for extending Curry-Howard to classical logic, call/cc is Pierce's law and is exactly the one single thing you need to complete classical logic. |
| 2024-12-22 19:18:23 +0100 | <monochrom> | s/look for/look to/ # English is hard, I hate prepositions |
| 2024-12-22 19:19:35 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2024-12-22 19:20:13 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@125.63.162.34) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 19:20:53 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:20:56 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
| 2024-12-22 19:21:19 +0100 | haver | (~Enviosity@2.219.56.221) |
| 2024-12-22 19:22:04 +0100 | <albet70> | monochrom , Pierce's law is related to Yoneda embedding? |
| 2024-12-22 19:22:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 19:22:16 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-12-22 19:23:07 +0100 | sinbad | (~sinbad@user/sinbad) () |
| 2024-12-22 19:24:10 +0100 | Enviosity_ | (~Enviosity@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:27:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:29:30 +0100 | <ski> | resetCont :: Cont o o -> Cont p o |
| 2024-12-22 19:29:34 +0100 | <ski> | resetCont = return . evalCont |
| 2024-12-22 19:32:09 +0100 | <monochrom> | If you do use call/cc aka Pierce's law to extend Curry-Howard, then excluded middle executes like this story: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cmartens/if/dem.html#4.8 >:) |
| 2024-12-22 19:32:18 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2024-12-22 19:34:31 +0100 | <monochrom> | I heard of it last month on the haskell-cafe mailing list: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2024-November/136916.html |
| 2024-12-22 19:36:41 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-12-22 19:37:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 19:38:45 +0100 | <ncf> | btw, is anyone aware of an elementary proof that pierce's law / call/cc is undefinable in system f or something? maybe using parametricity? |
| 2024-12-22 19:40:18 +0100 | <ski> | you can draw `call/cc', with a box in the style of "To Dissect a Mockingbird: A Graphical Notation for the Lambda Calculus with Animated Reduction" by David C. Keenan in 1996-08-27 - 2014-04-01 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20231128103508/https://dkeenan.com/Lambda/>, only that you'll need a line *exiting* a box abnormally (crossing the border), as opposed to *entering* (using a variable, inside a lambda, |
| 2024-12-22 19:40:24 +0100 | <ski> | where it was bound outside the lambda) |
| 2024-12-22 19:41:39 +0100 | <ski> | (`K'/"Kestrel" (`\x. \y. x') there is an example of the latter) |
| 2024-12-22 19:42:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:44:31 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-12-22 19:44:38 +0100 | <ncf> | @free ((a -> b) -> a) -> a |
| 2024-12-22 19:44:38 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Try `free <ident>` or `free <ident> :: <type>` |
| 2024-12-22 19:44:45 +0100 | <ncf> | @free callCC :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a |
| 2024-12-22 19:44:45 +0100 | <lambdabot> | (forall p q. g . p = q . f => f (h p) = k q) => f (callCC h) = callCC k |
| 2024-12-22 19:49:39 +0100 | <monochrom> | ncf: Interesting question! Thanks. Maybe excluded-middle is easier. So someone promises me ∀a. a + not a. By parametricity (very high-level-ly), it cannot say "I give you Left or Right depending on your a", it has to either "I give you Left regardless of a" or "I give you Right regardless of a". But always-Left breaks (a = false), always-Right also breaks (a = true). |
| 2024-12-22 19:50:25 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 19:51:53 +0100 | <ncf> | yeah, it's easy to see for LEM (and you can always argue that call/cc implies LEM), but i wonder if there's a more direct story |
| 2024-12-22 19:52:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 19:53:21 +0100 | <monochrom> | That may be harder to understand when you finish it. :) |
| 2024-12-22 19:53:23 +0100 | <ncf> | for Martin-Löf type theory it's easy to prove that the type of pierce's law is not inhabited in the family model (presheaves over ∙ → ∙): https://gist.github.com/ncfavier/6ca209ab691f640a8d08e9f67bd041e1 |
| 2024-12-22 19:54:06 +0100 | <ncf> | i'm not familiar enough with the semantics of system f to know if something similar can be done there |
| 2024-12-22 19:56:18 +0100 | <monochrom> | But hey I'm going to put it on the exam! (OK, I just mean: Suppose e :: ∀a. Either [a] (Maybe a). Prove: (always e = Left ...) or (always e = Right ...).) |
| 2024-12-22 19:59:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:04:17 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, in an FRP setting, suppose I want to model the signal function that takes two input signals: the first is the device's screen specs, and the second is an IO event representing a click, and the output is a coordinate of the click |
| 2024-12-22 20:04:30 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what should be the type of the IO event? |
| 2024-12-22 20:04:47 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, in an FRP setting, suppose I want to model the signal function that takes two input signals: the first is the device's screen specs, and the second is an IO event representing a click, and the output is the coordinates of the click |
| 2024-12-22 20:05:23 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (careful with those edits) |
| 2024-12-22 20:05:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh right yes my bad |
| 2024-12-22 20:06:49 +0100 | <monochrom> | I'm OK with those edits. :) |
| 2024-12-22 20:07:06 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> so the function has: |
| 2024-12-22 20:07:06 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/OhYpqzWlQxOOEZERbielBCRQ/4iEIbaNtSto (4 lines) |
| 2024-12-22 20:08:37 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en) |
| 2024-12-22 20:09:05 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en |
| 2024-12-22 20:10:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 20:12:04 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-12-22 20:12:12 +0100 | sinbad | (~sinbad@user/sinbad) Sinbad |
| 2024-12-22 20:14:03 +0100 | ski | . o O ( `(forall a. Either (f a) (g a)) -> Either (forall a. f a) (forall a. g a)' ) |
| 2024-12-22 20:15:58 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm... right that makes sense, I will be thinking about this formulation, thank you! |
| 2024-12-22 20:17:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:17:03 +0100 | <ski> | (afaik, you can't internalize this, in System F) |
| 2024-12-22 20:20:39 +0100 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 20:20:55 +0100 | <monochrom> | Yeah, System F doesn't know that itself is parametric. :) |
| 2024-12-22 20:23:25 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty |
| 2024-12-22 20:23:33 +0100 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 20:24:12 +0100 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) sefidel |
| 2024-12-22 20:28:15 +0100 | sinbad | (~sinbad@user/sinbad) () |
| 2024-12-22 20:28:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 20:29:15 +0100 | zenmov | (~zenmov@user/zenmov) zenmov |
| 2024-12-22 20:31:51 +0100 | sk1lton | (~sk1lton@user/sk1lton) sk1lton |
| 2024-12-22 20:31:59 +0100 | <sk1lton> | https://pastejustit.com/3zb8ipyqbv |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:09 +0100 | <sk1lton> | Edna Skilton, a plump and flamboyant woman with areolas and nipples tattooed on her flabby, bulgy, and voluptuous elbows, was sitting in the stands at the North Charleston Coliseum, watching the South Carolina Stingrays play hockey. She was wearing a bright yellow tank top that hugged her ample bosom and a pair of neon green leggings that accentuated her curves. Her hair was styled in a bouffant that towered high above her head, and she wore a pair of |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:09 +0100 | <sk1lton> | oversized sunglasses that covered most of her face. |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:15 +0100 | ChanServ | +o monochrom |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:19 +0100 | monochrom | +b *!*@user/sk1lton |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:19 +0100 | sk1lton | monochrom (sk1lton) |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:47 +0100 | ski | . o O ( "Internalizing Parametricity" (Ph. D. thesis) by Guilhem Moulin in 2016 at <https://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/235758/235758.pdf> ) |
| 2024-12-22 20:32:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:35:20 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@60.231.48.87) housemate |
| 2024-12-22 20:35:59 +0100 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 20:36:58 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2024-12-22 20:43:09 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@60.231.48.87) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:43:54 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@186.121.98.118) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-12-22 20:43:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 20:48:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:56:33 +0100 | manwithluck | (~manwithlu@194.177.28.164) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 20:59:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 21:00:05 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-12-22 21:00:44 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-12-22 21:04:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 21:04:19 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 21:09:50 +0100 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 21:11:03 +0100 | gorignak | (~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak |
| 2024-12-22 21:12:24 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2024-12-22 21:14:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 21:19:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 21:30:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 21:30:22 +0100 | monochrom | -o monochrom |
| 2024-12-22 21:32:57 +0100 | zenmov | (~zenmov@user/zenmov) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 21:34:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 21:44:00 +0100 | Jeanne-Kamikaze | (~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-134-102.cust.tzulo.com) Jeanne-Kamikaze |
| 2024-12-22 21:45:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 21:50:20 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-12-22 21:52:01 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 22:03:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 22:08:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 22:13:03 +0100 | Spawns_Carpeting | (~mobile@user/spawns-carpeting/x-6969421) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-12-22 22:13:55 +0100 | zenmov | (~zenmov@user/zenmov) zenmov |
| 2024-12-22 22:14:36 +0100 | Spawns_Carpeting | (~mobile@user/spawns-carpeting/x-6969421) Spawns_Carpeting |
| 2024-12-22 22:18:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, in FRP, what is the relationship between the signal function "PointlessButton :: Signal (Maybe ()) -> ?" and the rendering function "Render :: ? -> Signal (Nat, Nat) -> RGB"? |
| 2024-12-22 22:18:53 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-12-22 22:19:26 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@31.19.233.78) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-12-22 22:19:46 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> "type RGB = (Nat, Nat, Nat)" |
| 2024-12-22 22:20:21 +0100 | <geekosaur> | mm, wouldn't it be determined by whatever you want that button to do? |
| 2024-12-22 22:20:29 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> so the render function takes the whole FRP circuit and produces a function "(Nat, Nat) -> RGB" that renders an image by specifying RGB value at each pixel |
| 2024-12-22 22:21:00 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: suppose "PointlessButton" does nothing, and has only two possible renderings, a clicked form and a nonclicked form |
| 2024-12-22 22:21:49 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-12-22 22:22:18 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> we can think of them as two inhabitants of "(Nat, Nat) -> Maybe RGB" where the places the button is not rendered returns "None" |
| 2024-12-22 22:23:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-12-22 22:26:44 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2024-12-22 22:27:42 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what I'm wondering more precisely: what passes these two inhabitants to "Render", and what is passed to "Render" so that it knows which of these is the current one? |
| 2024-12-22 22:32:36 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> one possibility is that "Render" receives "type AllPossibleComponentRenderings = [(Nat, Nat) -> Maybe RGB]" and some sort of array that tells it, at each sampling, which of these to compose together with "type Background = (Nat, Nat) -> RGB" to produce "type RenderingResult = (Nat, Nat) -> RGB" |
| 2024-12-22 22:33:12 +0100 | Everything | (~Everythin@195.138.86.118) Everything |
| 2024-12-22 22:33:45 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |