| 2024-11-14 00:01:51 +0100 | falafel | (~falafel@2600:1700:99f4:2050:41b3:d17e:817a:4e83) falafel |
| 2024-11-14 00:02:55 +0100 | Everything | (~Everythin@46.211.104.82) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 00:28:22 +0100 | Xe_ | (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe |
| 2024-11-14 00:29:11 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-11-14 00:29:57 +0100 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f7100fa0b96aa6639bf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 00:32:33 +0100 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f717cba866c0fa9f7cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-11-14 00:47:47 +0100 | <jackdk> | I want to provide a type family-shaped helper that identifies the type of a record field, something like `FieldType "foo" MyRecord` reducing to `Bar`. I can get at the type of a field by looking at the fundep on the `HasField` class (GHC gives me in `instance HasField "foo" MyRecord Bar`, but is there a good idiom for binding and returning that type variable using a type family? |
| 2024-11-14 00:48:23 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3117-f07c-987b-fc29-77ee-addd.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 00:49:22 +0100 | CoolMa7 | (~CoolMa7@ip5f5b8957.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-11-14 00:49:54 +0100 | athostFI | (~Atte@176-93-56-50.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 2024-11-14 00:50:52 +0100 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:8dec:7d0f:9187:87d0) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 00:51:04 +0100 | <Axman6> | This feels like it might be easier with generics-sop, but it's been a long time since I looked at any of these things |
| 2024-11-14 00:51:40 +0100 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:cd0a:c39d:37b7:c1a3) |
| 2024-11-14 00:53:05 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2024-11-14 00:53:24 +0100 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:cd0a:c39d:37b7:c1a3) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 00:54:14 +0100 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:c1d0:6a01:957c:3af2) |
| 2024-11-14 00:55:56 +0100 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:c1d0:6a01:957c:3af2) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 01:01:19 +0100 | falafel | (~falafel@2600:1700:99f4:2050:41b3:d17e:817a:4e83) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 01:10:06 +0100 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f717cba866c0fa9f7cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 01:10:17 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3117-f07c-987b-fc29-77ee-addd.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-11-14 01:11:02 +0100 | <Leary> | jackdk: I doubt there's anything like an 'idiom' for this. Does `class HasField f r (Field f r) => HasFieldF f r where { type Field f r }; instance HasField f r t => HasFieldF f r where { type Field f r = t }` work? |
| 2024-11-14 01:14:53 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2024-11-14 01:16:38 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 01:17:43 +0100 | <glguy> | jackdk: You could do something like this: https://bpa.st/AYDQ |
| 2024-11-14 01:18:38 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2024-11-14 01:20:20 +0100 | arahael | (~arahael@user/arahael) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-11-14 01:25:58 +0100 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f059400e8d39b8ffa006815.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 01:26:14 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:ca42:e655:d7e4:ec2b) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 01:32:10 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 01:35:18 +0100 | <jackdk> | Leary: alas no: "The RHS of an associated type declaration mentions out-of-scope variable ‘t’ All such variables must be bound on the LHS"; glguy: Yeah, recursing through the `Rep` seems like the best bet. Thanks to you both. |
| 2024-11-14 01:36:34 +0100 | MironZ3 | (~MironZ@nat-infra.ehlab.uk) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-11-14 01:36:34 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2024-11-14 01:39:10 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 01:43:55 +0100 | MironZ3 | (~MironZ@nat-infra.ehlab.uk) |
| 2024-11-14 01:44:15 +0100 | ljdarj1 | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-11-14 01:47:34 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 01:47:34 +0100 | ljdarj1 | ljdarj |
| 2024-11-14 01:48:46 +0100 | athostFI | (~Atte@176-93-56-50.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 01:49:48 +0100 | <jle`> | does anybody know if there has been any updates on https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/9577 ? is there a good way to get haddock to do multiple sublibraries? |
| 2024-11-14 01:50:03 +0100 | <glguy> | getting ready for aoc? ;-) |
| 2024-11-14 01:51:19 +0100 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/9821 maybe? |
| 2024-11-14 01:51:52 +0100 | <jle`> | glguy: heh how did you guess |
| 2024-11-14 01:52:04 +0100 | <jle`> | i am merging all of my aoc libs into a single master cabal project |
| 2024-11-14 01:52:14 +0100 | <glguy> | jle`: I can't think of any other reason to use multiple sublibraries ^_^ |
| 2024-11-14 01:52:38 +0100 | <geekosaur> | amazonka and recent HLS use them |
| 2024-11-14 01:52:59 +0100 | <geekosaur> | HLS for all its plugins, amazonka for all its generated service packages |
| 2024-11-14 01:53:06 +0100 | <glguy> | geekosaur: Maybe someone used those libraries to solve an aoc problem then |
| 2024-11-14 01:53:09 +0100 | <Leary> | jle`: There's some discussion on it here: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/best-practices-for-public-cabal-sublibraries/10272 |
| 2024-11-14 01:53:26 +0100 | <jle`> | geekosaur: ah that does seem promising, do you know if it's in any cabal releases? |
| 2024-11-14 01:54:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not yet but it should be in 3.14.1.0 |
| 2024-11-14 01:54:16 +0100 | <geekosaur> | which is due around when ghc 9.12.1 GA is |
| 2024-11-14 01:54:32 +0100 | <jle`> | ooh, that's in a matter of days right? |
| 2024-11-14 01:54:36 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the release process has already begun |
| 2024-11-14 01:54:47 +0100 | <jle`> | woo hoo |
| 2024-11-14 01:55:19 +0100 | <jle`> | rate of cabal improvements has been amazing |
| 2024-11-14 02:14:21 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-11-14 02:18:56 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2024-11-14 02:21:07 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Quit: ljdarj) |
| 2024-11-14 02:27:07 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes_ | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 02:28:51 +0100 | yin | (~z@user/zero) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-11-14 02:33:06 +0100 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 02:43:43 +0100 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
| 2024-11-14 02:45:51 +0100 | jero98772 | (~jero98772@190.158.28.32) |
| 2024-11-14 02:47:45 +0100 | telser | (~quassel@user/telser) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 2024-11-14 02:55:16 +0100 | jero98772 | (~jero98772@190.158.28.32) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 03:00:23 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@146.70.66.228) (Quit: "I saw it in a tiktok video and thought that it was the most smartest answer ever." ~ AnonOps Radio [some time some place] | I AM THE DERIVATIVE I AM GOING TANGENT TO THE CURVE!) |
| 2024-11-14 03:13:26 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2024-11-14 03:14:45 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 03:30:17 +0100 | myxos | (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) myxokephale |
| 2024-11-14 04:06:25 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3117-f07c-987b-fc29-77ee-addd.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 04:13:00 +0100 | arahael | (~arahael@user/arahael) arahael |
| 2024-11-14 04:16:04 +0100 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) arahael |
| 2024-11-14 04:29:59 +0100 | td_ | (~td@i53870901.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 04:31:21 +0100 | td_ | (~td@i5387092A.versanet.de) td_ |
| 2024-11-14 04:46:17 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: Reboot.) |
| 2024-11-14 04:52:54 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@static-198-44-129-53.cust.tzulo.com) agent314 |
| 2024-11-14 05:09:25 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2024-11-14 05:10:33 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@static-198-44-129-53.cust.tzulo.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 2024-11-14 05:19:01 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) (Excess Flood) |
| 2024-11-14 05:25:13 +0100 | mc47 | (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 05:25:33 +0100 | mc47 | (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) mc47 |
| 2024-11-14 05:27:30 +0100 | divya | (~user@139.5.11.223) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 05:30:03 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) pyon |
| 2024-11-14 05:30:40 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) mange |
| 2024-11-14 05:31:26 +0100 | mange | (~user@user/mange) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-11-14 05:32:37 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-11-14 05:36:48 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@146.70.66.228) housemate |
| 2024-11-14 05:37:01 +0100 | stiell_ | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 05:41:15 +0100 | stiell_ | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) stiell |
| 2024-11-14 05:54:07 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2024-11-14 06:06:35 +0100 | mikko | (~mikko@user/mikko) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 06:13:50 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@static-198-44-129-53.cust.tzulo.com) agent314 |
| 2024-11-14 06:14:44 +0100 | visilii_ | (~visilii@213.24.127.47) |
| 2024-11-14 06:14:54 +0100 | visilii | (~visilii@213.24.133.209) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 06:36:59 +0100 | Guest16 | (~Guest16@2401:4900:65c9:bca3:883d:d42c:cc19:7f95) |
| 2024-11-14 06:37:48 +0100 | <Guest16> | hi |
| 2024-11-14 06:37:56 +0100 | <Guest16> | Does anyone know why http://wiki.haskell.org/ is down |
| 2024-11-14 06:39:54 +0100 | <Axman6> | There's been issues with the machine it runs on lately, which I believe are proving to be quite hard to fix. sm I think knows more (there's also #haskell-infrastructure) |
| 2024-11-14 06:41:03 +0100 | <probie> | Guest16: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2024-November/136929.html |
| 2024-11-14 06:41:44 +0100 | <Guest16> | thank you |
| 2024-11-14 06:52:22 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 06:52:41 +0100 | Guest16 | (~Guest16@2401:4900:65c9:bca3:883d:d42c:cc19:7f95) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-11-14 06:58:06 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-11-14 07:00:42 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://github.com/haskell/haskell-wiki-configuration/issues/43 |
| 2024-11-14 07:02:55 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish |
| 2024-11-14 07:04:06 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.203) |
| 2024-11-14 07:08:06 +0100 | philopsos | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
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| 2024-11-14 07:12:25 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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| 2024-11-14 07:58:37 +0100 | divya | (~user@139.5.11.223) divya |
| 2024-11-14 07:59:20 +0100 | divya | (~user@139.5.11.223) (Quit: ERC 5.6.0.30.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.91)) |
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| 2024-11-14 08:16:08 +0100 | Xe | (~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe |
| 2024-11-14 08:17:18 +0100 | Cadey | (~cadey@perl/impostor/xe) Xe |
| 2024-11-14 08:30:14 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-11-14 08:34:21 +0100 | petrichor | (~znc-user@user/petrichor) petrichor |
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| 2024-11-14 08:51:11 +0100 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2a216.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 08:51:35 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
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| 2024-11-14 09:27:15 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
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| 2024-11-14 09:58:59 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
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| 2024-11-14 10:13:18 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) misterfish |
| 2024-11-14 10:14:38 +0100 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-11-14 10:19:37 +0100 | Maxdamantus | (~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus) Maxdamantus |
| 2024-11-14 10:24:45 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 10:31:28 +0100 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) chele |
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| 2024-11-14 11:10:27 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
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| 2024-11-14 11:12:07 +0100 | mari24610 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 11:14:04 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2024-11-14 11:15:10 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 11:15:12 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 2024-11-14 11:24:27 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@149.222.147.110) ash3en |
| 2024-11-14 11:27:17 +0100 | Digitteknohippie | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2024-11-14 11:27:49 +0100 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 2024-11-14 11:32:25 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-11-14 11:33:37 +0100 | Digitteknohippie | Digit |
| 2024-11-14 11:49:20 +0100 | mikko | (~mikko@user/mikko) mikko |
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| 2024-11-14 12:00:01 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2024-11-14 12:05:29 +0100 | mari96334 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 12:06:53 +0100 | mari96334 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 12:07:05 +0100 | mari89179 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
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| 2024-11-14 12:11:27 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@ai080132.d.east.v6connect.net) |
| 2024-11-14 12:22:06 +0100 | jero98772 | (~jero98772@190.158.28.32) |
| 2024-11-14 12:26:32 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2024-11-14 12:38:40 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
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| 2024-11-14 12:42:19 +0100 | mari29333 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 12:43:13 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 12:43:53 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
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| 2024-11-14 12:47:34 +0100 | mari29333 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 12:52:05 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2024-11-14 12:57:24 +0100 | <hellwolf> | Is "IOPhobia" pathological case? After decades of programming, I find pure joy in writing main part of the code that deals with zero IO. And only Haskell can guarantee that, to the extent that I am questioning if I am sick. |
| 2024-11-14 12:58:54 +0100 | jero98772 | (~jero98772@190.158.28.32) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 13:00:04 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-11-14 13:01:18 +0100 | <Rembane> | hellwolf: Nah, it's sound. Not having to deal with side effects makes code so much easier to write, read and test. |
| 2024-11-14 13:02:11 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-11-14 13:03:23 +0100 | <hellwolf> | I hesitate to make a connetion with germophobia, since I personally am an opposite of a germophobia. |
| 2024-11-14 13:04:00 +0100 | <Leary> | hellwolf: Welcome to the oasis of sanity. |
| 2024-11-14 13:04:09 +0100 | <Rembane> | Some germs are quite good to not be in contact with IMO |
| 2024-11-14 13:05:28 +0100 | <hellwolf> | like unsafePerformIO? |
| 2024-11-14 13:07:45 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:09:11 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:09:23 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:13:49 +0100 | <dminuoso> | unsafePerformIO is indeed quite unsafe. :-) |
| 2024-11-14 13:16:33 +0100 | hellwolf | like when label is truth for to itself. |
| 2024-11-14 13:17:57 +0100 | <dminuoso> | It was a simple case of something like `replicate n (unsafePerformIO (newIORef []))`, which GHC happily refactored into `let x = unsafePerformIO (newIORef []) in replicate n x` |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:14 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@146.70.66.228) (Quit: "I saw it in a tiktok video and thought that it was the most smartest answer ever." ~ AnonOps Radio [some time some place] | I AM THE DERIVATIVE I AM GOING TANGENT TO THE CURVE!) |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:15 +0100 | <dminuoso> | (In reality the code was far more sophisticated, so it was neither obvious how or why this happened) |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:46 +0100 | <dminuoso> | I mean actually there was a `traverse_` in there too. |
| 2024-11-14 13:19:48 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Yeah I think it was something like `unsafePerformIO (traverse_ (\_ -> newIORef []) xs)` and GHC successfully floated that IORef out |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Ill have to dig through the commit history to find this one. |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:14 +0100 | <hellwolf> | which code base? |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:26 +0100 | <dminuoso> | An internal compiler of ours. |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:32 +0100 | <dminuoso> | No, those examples I named are both wrong. Mmm. |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:02 +0100 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: Anyway, IO can still be a useful tool, especially if you want any kind of introspectability of whats going on (say logging or debugging) |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:21 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Pure code is often cumbersome to debug |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:42 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Consider something like GHC, where large portions work in IO |
| 2024-11-14 13:23:59 +0100 | mari59415 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:24:25 +0100 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 13:25:23 +0100 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) arahael |
| 2024-11-14 13:26:03 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:26:39 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-11-14 13:27:19 +0100 | <hellwolf> | runTrace your_pure_fn your_trace_filters ...currying your_pure_fn_args... |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | What is `runTrace` supposed to be here? |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:25 +0100 | <hellwolf> | that'd be my ideal way of trace into your pure fn in a principled way. I am entirely sure how feasible/difficult it could be; I did somethings that involve some aspects of such a thing. |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:32 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) misterfish |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:48 +0100 | <hellwolf> | sorry, typed too slow. I meant to propose a hypothetical |
| 2024-11-14 13:31:46 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 13:31:51 +0100 | <lortabac> | "Pure code is often cumbersome to debug" *with GHC* |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:28 +0100 | <lortabac> | I don't think we should see lack of observability as an intrinsic property of pure computations |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:36 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:36 +0100 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:42 +0100 | <mari59415> | no mentions about pure code being amounts easier to test |
| 2024-11-14 13:33:53 +0100 | <hellwolf> | But I find the habit of spending more time in thinking then examining into what happened is a better use of time. Of course, on the contrary, Linus, notoriously, promoted the idea of printf debugging. So I guess the tool influence on how you do troubleshooting. |
| 2024-11-14 13:34:38 +0100 | <hellwolf> | exactly, mari59415, it is a problem most applicable to impure code. For pure code, you write properties (which means thinking a lot about what you are writing.) |
| 2024-11-14 13:35:34 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:36:10 +0100 | <hellwolf> | fwiw, @dminuoso, I had a small example here https://discourse.haskell.org/t/variable-arity-currying-helper/10659 that decorates "let foo' = curry' (MkFn foo)" but that assumes all arguments is "showable". to make it runTrace, you'd need to have a default instance for all types, and then overlapping instance for Show, Num, Functor, etc. |
| 2024-11-14 13:37:49 +0100 | mari59415 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 13:38:40 +0100 | <mari-estel> | huh properties help equally with pure and monadic |
| 2024-11-14 13:38:40 +0100 | <mari-estel> | prints or traces are a good way to collect test samples while troubleshooting |
| 2024-11-14 13:41:35 +0100 | <hellwolf> | Does Trace.trace help? |
| 2024-11-14 13:41:53 +0100 | <hellwolf> | Debug.Trace (trace) |
| 2024-11-14 13:43:13 +0100 | mari73904 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:44:19 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 13:44:51 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:45:55 +0100 | <kuribas`> | The problem is that the GHC debugger follow the imperative model for debugging (stepping through, etc..) |
| 2024-11-14 13:46:10 +0100 | <kuribas`> | A more useful pure debugger would allow you to choose which expression to evaluate. |
| 2024-11-14 13:46:40 +0100 | <kuribas`> | I the end, lazyness doesn't specify an order for execution. |
| 2024-11-14 13:47:00 +0100 | <kuribas`> | As long as the semantics are preserved. |
| 2024-11-14 13:47:01 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-11-14 13:47:50 +0100 | mari73904 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:48:41 +0100 | <__monty__> | That would also cause confusion though. Since sometimes referential transparency is a lie. And it's easy to convince yourself that the expressions must surely be evaluating in the order you think they are. |
| 2024-11-14 13:58:57 +0100 | <kuribas`> | __monty__: how can it be a lie with "pure" code? |
| 2024-11-14 13:59:08 +0100 | <kuribas`> | Assuming it doesn't use unsafePerformIO. |
| 2024-11-14 13:59:51 +0100 | alphazone | (~alphazone@2.219.56.221) |
| 2024-11-14 14:02:26 +0100 | <__monty__> | There's the rub : ) |
| 2024-11-14 14:05:11 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> the lie is limited to the extent that, if your program is not total, would the debugger hurt your bottom where you intend to leave it so. |
| 2024-11-14 14:12:04 +0100 | <kuribas`> | > head [1, undefined] |
| 2024-11-14 14:12:05 +0100 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 2024-11-14 14:12:30 +0100 | <kuribas`> | If you would evaluate the second element of the list, the debugger should not halt the whole expression. |
| 2024-11-14 14:13:44 +0100 | <bailsman> | Huh, are mutable vectors a scam? `VM.iforM_ mv $ \i x -> VM.write mv i (updateValue x)` is considerably slower for simple objects, and barely faster than `map updateValue` even for large complex objects. |
| 2024-11-14 14:14:28 +0100 | <geekosaur> | they will definitely have costs you don't incur with immutable vectors |
| 2024-11-14 14:15:25 +0100 | <bailsman> | So the use cases are considerably more niche than I thought. Like if you need to exchange two elements or something, the pure version would have to copy the entire thing and the mutable version only two elements. But for most cases, it's a bait? |
| 2024-11-14 14:16:30 +0100 | <bailsman> | If you expect to touch every element, just use map. |
| 2024-11-14 14:16:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | pretty much |
| 2024-11-14 14:17:21 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it's still going to do copies, I think, and more of them the more elements you touch. but I'mnot sure how that plays out for vector |
| 2024-11-14 14:18:05 +0100 | <geekosaur> | for Array it's split into "cards" and modifications within a single card are batched so only a single copy needs to be done by the mutator, AIUI |
| 2024-11-14 14:18:13 +0100 | <bailsman> | I tried look at it with -ddump-simpl and the mutable version doesn't compile to simple code at all. What should be like 5 assembly instructions turns into several pages of assembly. |
| 2024-11-14 14:18:30 +0100 | <geekosaur> | but that's built into GC and I don't think vector can take advantage of it |
| 2024-11-14 14:18:58 +0100 | <bailsman> | I think if you need a mutable algorithm maybe you should do a CFFI or something. |
| 2024-11-14 14:24:13 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3313-668b-a9ec-921f-0511-ee3f.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-11-14 14:32:56 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 14:33:10 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-11-14 14:35:46 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-11-14 14:38:28 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 14:48:24 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 14:50:45 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2024-11-14 14:56:06 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "") |
| 2024-11-14 15:01:26 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@149.222.147.110) ash3en |
| 2024-11-14 15:05:34 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@149.222.147.110) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-11-14 15:06:31 +0100 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 15:10:02 +0100 | <dminuoso> | bailsman: Do you have the actual code and the generated core to look at? |
| 2024-11-14 15:16:32 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Quit: errands) |
| 2024-11-14 15:18:37 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2024-11-14 15:30:28 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 15:35:09 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@149.222.147.110) ash3en |
| 2024-11-14 15:35:40 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3313-668b-a9ec-921f-0511-ee3f.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 15:35:45 +0100 | ash3en | (~Thunderbi@149.222.147.110) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-11-14 15:35:59 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3313-668b-a9ec-921f-0511-ee3f.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-11-14 15:36:27 +0100 | yaroot | (~yaroot@2400:4052:ac0:d901:1cf4:2aff:fe51:c04c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 15:36:41 +0100 | yaroot | (~yaroot@2400:4052:ac0:d901:1cf4:2aff:fe51:c04c) yaroot |
| 2024-11-14 15:39:55 +0100 | Cadey | (~cadey@perl/impostor/xe) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2) |
| 2024-11-14 15:41:12 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2024-11-14 15:47:02 +0100 | billchenchina | (~billchenc@2a0d:2580:ff0c:1:e3c9:c52b:a429:5bfe) billchenchina |
| 2024-11-14 15:48:48 +0100 | <bailsman> | Plain old lists are consistently the fastest. I find that somewhat confusing, since in imperative languages linked lists are often slow. |
| 2024-11-14 15:49:41 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if all you're doing is iterating through them, consider that ghc is optimized for that case: think of a list as a loop encoded as data |
| 2024-11-14 15:49:51 +0100 | <hellwolf> | I mean, if you need to do a log of random indexing, it got to be slow. but for stream processing, it is probably the most efficient |
| 2024-11-14 15:50:23 +0100 | <geekosaur> | allocation, gc, and iteration are all optimized because it's so common |
| 2024-11-14 15:50:37 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Reasoning imperatively in functional languages leads to bad performance in general |
| 2024-11-14 15:50:40 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) misterfish |
| 2024-11-14 15:51:04 +0100 | ph88 | (~ph88@2a02:8109:9e26:c800:7ee4:dffc:4616:9e2a) |
| 2024-11-14 15:52:00 +0100 | <bailsman> | I thought I needed to do a lot of random indexing. But, now I'm not sure if I shouldn't instead redesign everything so that it does not require random access. |
| 2024-11-14 15:52:55 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Have you tried any functional random access data structures? |
| 2024-11-14 15:53:14 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Data.Map is the first one that comes to mind |
| 2024-11-14 15:53:38 +0100 | <bailsman> | Data.Vector.Map over a vector is consistently 4x slower than regular map over []. (Data.Map is 10x slower) |
| 2024-11-14 15:54:06 +0100 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:6c70:1ac0:d127:74dd) hgolden |
| 2024-11-14 15:54:11 +0100 | <hellwolf> | "data Array i e" is also under rated. |
| 2024-11-14 15:54:16 +0100 | <geekosaur> | right, map's going to be one of those cases that [] will work very well for |
| 2024-11-14 15:55:03 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it actually compiles down to a tight loop in most cases, not the C-style linked list you might expect |
| 2024-11-14 15:55:14 +0100 | <ph88> | when i have some code more or less in the shape of this thing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.7/docs/Data-Tree.html#t:Tree how can i write code that changes `a` with State but there are two points to change it, when going down (into the leafs) and going up (back to the root)? also known as visitor pattern |
| 2024-11-14 15:55:38 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ph88, are you aware of tree zippers? |
| 2024-11-14 15:55:42 +0100 | <ph88> | no |
| 2024-11-14 15:55:53 +0100 | <geekosaur> | sadly the first reference that comes to mind is on the wiki… |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:06 +0100 | <bailsman> | I have some parts right now that use random access. But was thinking maybe I don't want to pay a 4x performance penalty just for random access. |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:08 +0100 | <hellwolf> | (wiki has been fixed) |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:16 +0100 | <geekosaur> | just found that, yes |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:29 +0100 | <geekosaur> | actually hgolden in #h-i said there are still some style issues |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:30 +0100 | <bailsman> | Awesome! Thank you to whoever fixed it |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:30 +0100 | <geekosaur> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Zipper |
| 2024-11-14 15:56:57 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it uses a tree as the example data structure, where most of them focus on lists which are the easiest case |
| 2024-11-14 15:57:50 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Gérard Huet's pearl "The Zipper" is also good if you don't mind OCaml |
| 2024-11-14 15:58:09 +0100 | <bailsman> | What do you mean by tight loop? Surely it still has to allocate all the elements for the new list? |
| 2024-11-14 15:58:25 +0100 | <bailsman> | Or does it turn into an in-place algorithm? |
| 2024-11-14 15:58:44 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if your generation and consumption are written correctly, they get pipelined |
| 2024-11-14 15:59:04 +0100 | <bailsman> | I don't know what any of those words mean |
| 2024-11-14 15:59:10 +0100 | <ph88> | wiki got a makeover? i remember being it uglier |
| 2024-11-14 15:59:34 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ph88, that's what I meant by style but also a mediawiki upgrade is what started the whole outage thing |
| 2024-11-14 15:59:42 +0100 | <bailsman> | I am just doing [SmallRecord] -> [SmallRecord] by updating a field in the record |
| 2024-11-14 15:59:43 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> GHC does dark magic to not actually use a linked list |
| 2024-11-14 16:00:07 +0100 | <geekosaur> | bailsman, construction of the list vs. mapping through the list |
| 2024-11-14 16:00:40 +0100 | <geekosaur> | in the optimal case, the list is never constructed as such, elements are fed directly to map as they are created |
| 2024-11-14 16:01:05 +0100 | <bailsman> | Hey, no, that's cheating. Then I've written my benchmark wrong |
| 2024-11-14 16:01:11 +0100 | <bailsman> | I need to benchmark the list already existing |
| 2024-11-14 16:01:46 +0100 | <bailsman> | It has to actually be stored and loaded from memory to be a fair comparison. |
| 2024-11-14 16:02:19 +0100 | <bailsman> | Why is understand performance of things so difficult aaargh |
| 2024-11-14 16:02:30 +0100 | <EvanR> | yes, when you "write C in any language" in haskell, it's not optimal. Surprise |
| 2024-11-14 16:02:33 +0100 | <geekosaur> | because everyone wants speeeeeeed |
| 2024-11-14 16:02:59 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell is weird that way. But it's actually not smart to write C in any language generally |
| 2024-11-14 16:03:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (including C /gd&r) |
| 2024-11-14 16:03:24 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2024-11-14 16:03:33 +0100 | <bailsman> | EvanR: That would be helpful advice if I automatically understood how to write idiomatic-and-perforant code in Haskell - but unfortunately that wisdom is as yet inaccesible to me :P |
| 2024-11-14 16:03:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | advice: forget anything you know about C and C++ and learn haskell |
| 2024-11-14 16:04:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | also forget python for good measure |
| 2024-11-14 16:04:47 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I think maybe if you want to understand idiomatic-and-performant, it might be worth looking at Chris Okasaki's thesis on functional data structures |
| 2024-11-14 16:04:53 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Because it is different to what you are used to. Functional languages can do optimizations that imperative langs can't, like list/fold/map/hylo fusion (AKA removing intermediate computations while traversing or creating stuff), safe(-ish) inlining, laziness stuff, etc |
| 2024-11-14 16:05:47 +0100 | <geekosaur> | IIRC it's in OCaml instead of Haskell so it won't cover things like laziness, but it'll still teach you the zen of functional programming |
| 2024-11-14 16:06:43 +0100 | <bailsman> | How do I force it to actually create the list? `smallRecs = force [... | ... <- ...]` did not change anything, map is still as fast as it was before. Maybe it wasn't cheating? |
| 2024-11-14 16:06:57 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Laziness is something you will want to learn at some point but for now you can use "{-# LANGUAGE Strict #-}" if you don't want laziness |
| 2024-11-14 16:07:23 +0100 | <bailsman> | Or did the compiler optimize that out |
| 2024-11-14 16:07:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | why are we trying to cripple haskell again by "actually creating lists" and enabling Strict xD |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:02 +0100 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | there's multiple levels of cheating |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | build/foldr is one |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:20 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You can force the first constructor (IIRC) with "seq", every constructor with "length" and the entire thing with "deepseq". Yeah Haskell has evaluation control |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:48 +0100 | <geekosaur> | optimizing lists by treating them as loops is another |
| 2024-11-14 16:08:52 +0100 | <ph88> | geekosaur, i was mistaken, i have actually not one data structure to fit all of the tree but multiple like `data Program = Program a [Statement]` and `data Statement = Statement a Expression` (dummy examples). Can tree zippers work with this? or do i need another technique? |
| 2024-11-14 16:09:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I don't know of any examples, but that doesn't seem much different from (say) a zipper for red-black trees |
| 2024-11-14 16:10:04 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You might need the slightly more general idea of the "derivative of a data structure" but it is essentially the same idea |
| 2024-11-14 16:10:43 +0100 | <bailsman> | doing smallRecsDeep = smallRecs `deepseq` smallRecs did not change anything either |
| 2024-11-14 16:11:03 +0100 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 16:11:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | right, I'm not sure it's the place to start buit the fundamentals of the zipper technique are http://strictlypositive.org/diff.pdf |
| 2024-11-14 16:11:06 +0100 | <bailsman> | the benchmark is using `nf` so that should be forcing both the source list and the destination list to be actually created now, right? But it's exactly as fast as before |
| 2024-11-14 16:11:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | that's just a definition, it would have to be evaluated to cause the normal form to be realized |
| 2024-11-14 16:11:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | given the stuff in that paper you should be able to construct a derivative-based zipper for any list-like or tree-like structure |
| 2024-11-14 16:12:13 +0100 | <EvanR> | it might also be that the non deepseq version was "just as slow" for some reason |
| 2024-11-14 16:12:16 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I think that usage of deepseq means "fully evaluate smallRecs when smallRecs is evaluated" but I am probably wrong |
| 2024-11-14 16:12:28 +0100 | <lortabac> | Bowuigi: probably worth mentioning that the Strict pragma only makes user definitions strict. So the rest of the ecosystem (including lists) will still be lazy |
| 2024-11-14 16:12:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not even that, actually. "strict" in Haskell means WHNF |
| 2024-11-14 16:13:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not `rnf` |
| 2024-11-14 16:13:02 +0100 | <lortabac> | it won't magically make Haskell a strict language |
| 2024-11-14 16:13:33 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So it is StrictData but also for functions? Huh |
| 2024-11-14 16:13:40 +0100 | <lortabac> | geekosaur: if you only use functions and data types that you define it shouldn't make a difference I guess |
| 2024-11-14 16:13:56 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Oh well, you can't make Haskell strict on a single pragma then |
| 2024-11-14 16:14:27 +0100 | <bailsman> | How do I write this benchmark to ensure the list is already created when map runs and not streamed |
| 2024-11-14 16:14:33 +0100 | <bailsman> | and the output list is created as well |
| 2024-11-14 16:14:33 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and you really don't want to because a fair amount of the Prelude assumes laziness and will bottom if you somehow forced them to be strict |
| 2024-11-14 16:14:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> AutomaticBang might have been a clearer name lol |
| 2024-11-14 16:15:06 +0100 | <bailsman> | When I hear someone say AutomaticBang something different comes to mind than was probably intended |
| 2024-11-14 16:15:25 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Fair enough |
| 2024-11-14 16:15:43 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 16:16:01 +0100 | <lortabac> | AutomaticExclamationMark |
| 2024-11-14 16:16:20 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Quit: on the move) |
| 2024-11-14 16:16:33 +0100 | <bailsman> | Did I write this correctly? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/B6koT8Nx |
| 2024-11-14 16:16:48 +0100 | <bailsman> | In my real-world-use-case I'm pretty sure the lists are going to have to be loaded from memory and cannot be streamed. |
| 2024-11-14 16:16:58 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> bailsman foldr/build uses a rule so just creating the list on a function on a function that is not inlined (with "{-# NOINLINE createList #-}") may work, I don't have a GHC at hand to test though |
| 2024-11-14 16:17:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | in IO somewhere realList <- evaluate (force list) |
| 2024-11-14 16:17:09 +0100 | <geekosaur> | consider that loading can be streamed |
| 2024-11-14 16:17:10 +0100 | <EvanR> | should do it |
| 2024-11-14 16:17:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | as can writing |
| 2024-11-14 16:17:39 +0100 | <geekosaur> | in fact that's where streaming frameworks came from |
| 2024-11-14 16:18:18 +0100 | <bailsman> | geekosaur: I'm fine that it streams loading and writing. But streaming the list generator into the update and never actually constructing the intermediate list is cheating for the purposes of the benchmark, since that won't be possible in the real use case. |
| 2024-11-14 16:18:20 +0100 | <EvanR> | usually when you load a big list of stuff from I/O, the whole list will exists just because |
| 2024-11-14 16:18:26 +0100 | <EvanR> | unless you use lazy I/O which is weird |
| 2024-11-14 16:19:25 +0100 | <EvanR> | (this is not the case for writing a big list out to I/O, this is a case where you can get streaming, which is good) |
| 2024-11-14 16:19:34 +0100 | <geekosaur> | or a streaming framework (conduit, pipes, streamly, …) |
| 2024-11-14 16:19:55 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2024-11-14 16:20:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | anyway if you really want to know if the compiler is "cheating", look at the Core (intermediate representation language, use `-ddump-ds -ddump-to-file`) |
| 2024-11-14 16:20:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | or for quick and dirty, play.haskell.org has a button to generate Core |
| 2024-11-14 16:21:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | sorry, `-ddump-simpl` |
| 2024-11-14 16:22:01 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If it is fusing anything it will be fairly obvious there. Reading Core is very necessary for doing very fast Haskell code |
| 2024-11-14 16:22:18 +0100 | <bailsman> | Using `smallRecs <- evaluate $ force [... | ... <- ...]` makes no difference whatsoever. Map is still faster 4x, absolutely no difference in performance. So can I now conclude it was not cheating? |
| 2024-11-14 16:23:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | no you should still read the Core dump |
| 2024-11-14 16:24:05 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell is so high level you can't conclude anything from the source code |
| 2024-11-14 16:24:15 +0100 | <EvanR> | on the subject of low level optimizations |
| 2024-11-14 16:24:21 +0100 | <bailsman> | I printed the -ddump-simpl output to a file but I have no real clue how to interpret what I'm looking at |
| 2024-11-14 16:24:31 +0100 | <EvanR> | I think there was a core primer somewhere |
| 2024-11-14 16:24:50 +0100 | <EvanR> | but essentially it's a simplified low level language that haskell is translated to |
| 2024-11-14 16:25:01 +0100 | <EvanR> | before it's compiled and assembled |
| 2024-11-14 16:25:05 +0100 | <bailsman> | The pure function just translates to: updatePure_r2HI = map @SmallRecord @SmallRecord updateValue_r2HH |
| 2024-11-14 16:25:24 +0100 | <bailsman> | sorry list function, I guess they're all pure except the mutable vector one |
| 2024-11-14 16:25:39 +0100 | <EvanR> | @SmallRecord is a type, updateValue_r2HH should be another thing defined in the dump somewhere |
| 2024-11-14 16:25:39 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 2024-11-14 16:26:07 +0100 | <bailsman> | EvanR: I posted the source code of my benchmark here. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/B6koT8Nx |
| 2024-11-14 16:26:13 +0100 | <bailsman> | please point out any beginner mistakes there |
| 2024-11-14 16:26:42 +0100 | <bailsman> | All are using the same updateValue function. |
| 2024-11-14 16:26:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | trying to +1 everything in the collection? |
| 2024-11-14 16:28:39 +0100 | <EvanR> | it's not clear what defaultMain and bench do |
| 2024-11-14 16:28:44 +0100 | Inst_ | (~Inst@user/Inst) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 16:29:18 +0100 | kuribas` | (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 16:29:31 +0100 | <EvanR> | or `nf' ? |
| 2024-11-14 16:29:37 +0100 | <bailsman> | I copied that from some example code to do a benchmark somewhere |
| 2024-11-14 16:29:46 +0100 | <bailsman> | I don't understand either but it printed some numbers to my console output |
| 2024-11-14 16:29:48 +0100 | Inst | (~Inst@user/Inst) Inst |
| 2024-11-14 16:31:16 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3313-668b-a9ec-921f-0511-ee3f.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 16:31:36 +0100 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3313-668b-a9ec-921f-0511-ee3f.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-11-14 16:32:01 +0100 | <EvanR> | well that will have a big effect on performance |
| 2024-11-14 16:32:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | code doesn't do anything in isolation, the evaluation is on demand |
| 2024-11-14 16:32:33 +0100 | <bailsman> | I'd like to understand exactly what's going on to make map so much faster. |
| 2024-11-14 16:33:36 +0100 | <EvanR> | well, mapping a list to get another list is much simpler than building a big tree or copying a vector so you can mutate it |
| 2024-11-14 16:33:49 +0100 | <bailsman> | Why is it simpler? It's the same operation |
| 2024-11-14 16:33:57 +0100 | <EvanR> | even simpler if the source list already exists and doesn't need to be evaluated |
| 2024-11-14 16:33:58 +0100 | <bailsman> | It should be harder because you need to allocate and create a linked list |
| 2024-11-14 16:34:44 +0100 | <bailsman> | My intuitions are completely wrong, but I don't know exactly why. |
| 2024-11-14 16:35:07 +0100 | <ph88> | geekosaur, i went back and forth with chatgpt for a bit. Could you take a peek at this document, specifically on line 490 https://bpa.st/MSVA it made an example with tree zippers to implement something for each type, which i don't want. Is there a way to use tree zippers without resorting to generic programming solutions such as GHC.Generics, syb, lens or Data.Data ? |
| 2024-11-14 16:35:20 +0100 | <EvanR> | you may or may not be allocating any list nodes due to fusion, but even if you did, that's 1 node per item. Meanwhile the IntMap has a more complex structure and the Vector is larger, even if you ignore the fact that you have to copy it |
| 2024-11-14 16:35:31 +0100 | <bailsman> | Why is the vector larger? |
| 2024-11-14 16:35:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | it's larger than 1 list node |
| 2024-11-14 16:35:55 +0100 | <bailsman> | but there's only 1 of them, not 1 million |
| 2024-11-14 16:36:40 +0100 | <EvanR> | and 1 megabyte chunk of Vector might not play as nice with the GC |
| 2024-11-14 16:37:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | it goes back to how your "bench" thing is processing the final list, 1 by 1, it's nicer on the GC |
| 2024-11-14 16:37:56 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <flip101> Bowuigi: could you please take a look as well? |
| 2024-11-14 16:38:01 +0100 | philopsos | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) philopsos |
| 2024-11-14 16:38:45 +0100 | <bailsman> | I'm expecting the vector version to compile to something like `nv = new Vector(v.length); for (int i = 0; i < v.length; ++i) nv[i] = updateValue(v[i])`. One allocation, extremely simple update. Whereas the linked list version has to allocate 1M nodes and set up each of their 'next' pointers, so it seems like it should be doing more work. |
| 2024-11-14 16:38:58 +0100 | <EvanR> | and again, the benchmark code might have gotten optimized so there are no list nodes, other than the source list |
| 2024-11-14 16:39:07 +0100 | <bailsman> | How do I prevent it from doing that? |
| 2024-11-14 16:39:24 +0100 | <EvanR> | go to the benchmark code and cripple that |
| 2024-11-14 16:39:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | fully evaluated the final list before doing whatever it does with it |
| 2024-11-14 16:39:46 +0100 | <bailsman> | Isn't that what I'm doing already? |
| 2024-11-14 16:39:52 +0100 | <bailsman> | That's what the nf was for right? |
| 2024-11-14 16:40:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | I have no idea, I don't see what nf is or bench is |
| 2024-11-14 16:40:20 +0100 | <EvanR> | right now all I see is "map updateValue someList" |
| 2024-11-14 16:41:16 +0100 | <EvanR> | finalList <- evaluate (force (map updateValue someList)) ought to slow it down more |
| 2024-11-14 16:41:23 +0100 | <bailsman> | nf :: NFData b => (a -> b) -> a -> Benchmarkable |
| 2024-11-14 16:41:39 +0100 | <EvanR> | I'm not familiar with Benchmarkable |
| 2024-11-14 16:42:07 +0100 | <EvanR> | if nf works, computes full normal form, sounds bad for performance |
| 2024-11-14 16:42:16 +0100 | <EvanR> | in the case of list |
| 2024-11-14 16:42:26 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ph88, it's doable without any of those but it's harder since you have to write it all yourself. those libraries exist for a reason |
| 2024-11-14 16:43:17 +0100 | <EvanR> | when I was tooling with the profiling and performance I would make sure to write my own main IO action so I know what what's |
| 2024-11-14 16:43:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | control what ultimately is demanding evaluation |
| 2024-11-14 16:43:39 +0100 | <geekosaur> | especially when you have multiple data types |
| 2024-11-14 16:43:53 +0100 | <bailsman> | Anyway, I guess we can assume that it isn't cheating, it is actually constructing the intermediate list, and most of the performance difference is going to come from map being a builtin and the vector code not compiling to anything nearly as simple as what I expected. So it's not map being fast, it's map being slowish, and vector being slower, I think. |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:05 +0100 | <ph88> | geekosaur, doable .. would i have to write code for each data type? |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | exactly, yes |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:17 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:34 +0100 | <ph88> | that's going to take so much time, the AST is absolutely huge |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that's where generics or syb come in, they generate the necessary code for you |
| 2024-11-14 16:44:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | 4x faster isn't that much of a difference, it seems plausible you're creating the whole structure for everything. It's not like a 1000x speedup that you'd normally see when you switch from full evaluation to lazy evaluation |
| 2024-11-14 16:45:50 +0100 | <ph88> | geekosaur, do you think it's still worth to use zippers but then to combine them with a generic approach? i am not sure whether i can go up and down with other approaches such as lens or GHC.Generics |
| 2024-11-14 16:46:30 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-11-14 16:46:34 +0100 | <EvanR> | bailsman, Vector shines when you start with combine chains of operations together, it fuses away intermediate vectors |
| 2024-11-14 16:46:45 +0100 | <bailsman> | I only do one operation. |
| 2024-11-14 16:46:55 +0100 | <EvanR> | so you won't see that benefit there |
| 2024-11-14 16:46:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you're conflating things, syb/generics/uniplate are mechanism, lens uses the mechanism. and lens should indeed be able to navigate up/down |
| 2024-11-14 16:47:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | again, "I don't know how this benchmark library works, but I'll assume a bunch of conclusions" isn't as good as writing your own code then profiling |
| 2024-11-14 16:48:08 +0100 | <EvanR> | and looking at the core, of your own code |
| 2024-11-14 16:53:17 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ph88, it's easier to replace lens there with something else (such as a zipper) than it is to replace the generics mechanism needed to make lens/a zipper/whatever useful |
| 2024-11-14 16:54:05 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if, as you say, "that's going to take so much time, the AST is absolutely huge", you need generics of some variety to escape that |
| 2024-11-14 16:54:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that's why generics packages exist |
| 2024-11-14 16:54:45 +0100 | <ph88> | why would i want this? "it's easier to replace lens there with something else (such as a zipper)" |
| 2024-11-14 16:55:03 +0100 | <ph88> | i have neither, and i like something to traverse while not having to write traversal code for each type |
| 2024-11-14 16:55:26 +0100 | <ph88> | as i understood it can be ghc.generics with zipper, or lens or maybe something else |
| 2024-11-14 16:55:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | then use generics to derive the traversal (all of the generics packages do so in some fashion) |
| 2024-11-14 16:56:11 +0100 | <ph88> | and you still recommend to do the traversal with zipper yes? (with code derived with generics) |
| 2024-11-14 16:56:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | although the default traversals are all of the Traversable variety, unlike a zipper which lets you move at will |
| 2024-11-14 16:56:38 +0100 | <geekosaur> | which it sounded like you wanted |
| 2024-11-14 16:56:55 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if you just want something Traversable-style, any generics library will give you that |
| 2024-11-14 16:56:59 +0100 | <ph88> | what if i don't only want to change the variable `a` but i also want to inspect the nodes and modify/replace them ? |
| 2024-11-14 16:57:24 +0100 | <ph88> | can zipper do this too ? |
| 2024-11-14 16:57:24 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that'd be a zipper |
| 2024-11-14 16:57:30 +0100 | <ph88> | ok cool, thanks geekosaur ! |
| 2024-11-14 16:57:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you can do anything to the focused node including remove or replace it, and moving the zipper will reknit the tree |
| 2024-11-14 16:58:42 +0100 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2) |
| 2024-11-14 16:58:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | even if it won't work with your structure as is, the wiki page I pointed you to earlier describes what you can do with a zipper |
| 2024-11-14 16:59:12 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and the tree example is probably closer to your actual AST than a list zipper example would be |
| 2024-11-14 17:00:06 +0100 | <bailsman> | To test my theory, I wrote a C version of the benchmark. Updating a linked list by allocating nodes one by one and copying over the values takes 14ms, approximately as long as Haskell takes to do map. Updating 1M records inplace in an array takes 2ms. |
| 2024-11-14 17:00:30 +0100 | <bailsman> | So I think I'm concluding that map is "the best you can do in haskell" because it's optimized and a builtin, and any attempt to do in place algorithms is just going to be massively slow. |
| 2024-11-14 17:00:31 +0100 | <EvanR> | that's... not going to be an apples to apples comparison |
| 2024-11-14 17:00:38 +0100 | <EvanR> | are you allocating nodes with malloc |
| 2024-11-14 17:00:57 +0100 | <EvanR> | allocating nodes in haskell is much faster |
| 2024-11-14 17:01:08 +0100 | <bailsman> | No it isn't. |
| 2024-11-14 17:01:22 +0100 | <EvanR> | yes it is |
| 2024-11-14 17:01:56 +0100 | <geekosaur> | bailsman, what do you think is going on during an allocation? |
| 2024-11-14 17:02:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | because it's probably not what actually happens |
| 2024-11-14 17:03:13 +0100 | <bailsman> | I agree - I'm not really sure. Some GC magic probably. But the point is that it's builtin and optimized, so it's much faster than trying to emulate in-place updates, which compiles to a morass of work and not 5 asm instructions like the c version. |
| 2024-11-14 17:03:20 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not magic |
| 2024-11-14 17:03:31 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the nursery/gen 0 is a bump-pointer allocator |
| 2024-11-14 17:03:44 +0100 | <geekosaur> | gc only gets involved when the pointer reaches the end of the nursery |
| 2024-11-14 17:04:50 +0100 | <EvanR> | "straight list processing and immutable structures are probably better in haskell than C-like mutable array munging" though is what I've been saying for days |
| 2024-11-14 17:05:01 +0100 | <EvanR> | but the specific reasons are off |
| 2024-11-14 17:06:10 +0100 | <EvanR> | before claiming stuff about what stuff compiles to you should check it |
| 2024-11-14 17:06:20 +0100 | <bailsman> | To me the fact that the Haskell Vector is ~100ms, Haskell map is ~25ms, C allocate-new-linked-list-and-copy version is ~15ms, C array in place is ~2ms is suggestive of the fact that indeed allocating a list is slow, and it's indeed what Haskell is doing, but it's still better than trying to do an array in Haskell. |
| 2024-11-14 17:06:59 +0100 | <EvanR> | the C version of linked list is just a bad thing to compare to haskell list unless you are careful to emulate what the haskell version did |
| 2024-11-14 17:07:25 +0100 | <EvanR> | "they are both called list" isn't that inspiring |
| 2024-11-14 17:08:09 +0100 | <EvanR> | list and arrays in haskell are both good for certain purposes |
| 2024-11-14 17:08:44 +0100 | <EvanR> | in the case of list, usually not as a data structure |
| 2024-11-14 17:08:53 +0100 | <EvanR> | but as a looping mechanism |
| 2024-11-14 17:09:22 +0100 | <bailsman> | I agree with your conclusion - stop trying to be clever and just learn what idiomatic haskell code looks like. |
| 2024-11-14 17:09:25 +0100 | <EvanR> | in the case of arrays, for lookup tables |
| 2024-11-14 17:10:03 +0100 | <bailsman> | If you write idiomatic haskell, you get as-slow-as-you-would-expect, if you try to write in-place code, you get way-slower-than-you-would-expect. |
| 2024-11-14 17:10:34 +0100 | <EvanR> | not necessarily, sometimes idiomatic haskell is faster |
| 2024-11-14 17:11:19 +0100 | <EvanR> | in any case idiomatic haskell is a starting point for getting into the weeds for optimization |
| 2024-11-14 17:12:30 +0100 | <Inst> | @bailsman |
| 2024-11-14 17:12:30 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 2024-11-14 17:12:36 +0100 | <Inst> | try compile with -fllvm |
| 2024-11-14 17:14:34 +0100 | <bailsman> | Inst: I compiled my benchmark with -O2 -fllvm. Does not seem meaningfully different. Is -O2 the wrong optimization level? |
| 2024-11-14 17:16:14 +0100 | <EvanR> | is llvm not the default now anyway |
| 2024-11-14 17:16:16 +0100 | <Inst> | probably MY skill issue :( |
| 2024-11-14 17:16:35 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: it definitely is not |
| 2024-11-14 17:16:39 +0100 | <EvanR> | ok |