| 2024-10-22 00:00:29 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (strongly deprecated since OCaml 2.0 though) |
| 2024-10-22 00:00:32 +0200 | <mauke> | technically also true of Perl |
| 2024-10-22 00:07:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 00:10:38 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2024-10-22 00:11:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 00:13:51 +0200 | <dmj`> | rust is by default immutable, pass by value, with opt-in laziness and mutability, haskell is default immutable, pass by value, but default laziness and opt-in mutability. rust traits aren't compiled w/ dictionaries, and I don't know how rust existentials are handled |
| 2024-10-22 00:15:38 +0200 | tcard | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-22 00:15:53 +0200 | tcard | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) tcard |
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| 2024-10-22 00:35:29 +0200 | k_hachig_ | (~k_hachig@2607:fea8:351d:ef0:5d8:3261:6875:6bbe) k_hachig |
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| 2024-10-22 00:40:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 00:44:22 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@2607:fb91:89c:94e1:ac39:c397:e2d4:2df7) vglfr |
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| 2024-10-22 00:45:34 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 00:47:49 +0200 | <sm> | there are *so many* characteristics within "OOP" and "FP" that are orthogonal or at best related |
| 2024-10-22 00:48:36 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@2607:fb91:89c:94e1:ac39:c397:e2d4:2df7) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 00:48:40 +0200 | <sm> | until we can name and explain every one of them there'll be no end to the discussions :) |
| 2024-10-22 00:49:09 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-10-22 00:49:19 +0200 | mantraofpie_ | mantraofpie |
| 2024-10-22 00:49:25 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@2607:fb90:ea26:e52:ad3:f751:e463:3b12) vglfr |
| 2024-10-22 00:50:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I guess this is all related to today's, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41901577 |
| 2024-10-22 00:52:00 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2024-10-22 00:52:40 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
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| 2024-10-22 02:30:43 +0200 | ljdarj1 | ljdarj |
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| 2024-10-22 02:37:50 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-10-22 02:46:58 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
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| 2024-10-22 02:52:28 +0200 | <Axman6> | sam113101: traits (among many other features of Rust were strongly inspured by Haskell's type classes - https://readmedium.com/ideas-from-other-languages-that-influenced-rust-8ffb5589b0fe |
| 2024-10-22 02:52:37 +0200 | <Axman6> | s/Rust/Rust) |
| 2024-10-22 02:52:40 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 03:01:41 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich) |
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| 2024-10-22 03:04:38 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
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| 2024-10-22 03:15:15 +0200 | <sm> | historical trivia from the original 1982 traits paper: "Multiple-inheritance subclassing is a valid and useful method for organizing object-oriented software; as demonstrated by the existence of the Star Workstation. The complexity of the Star WS software has been controlled by object-orientation first, subclassing second and multiple-inheritance third. The Traits Model is a reasonable approach to multiple- inheritance subclassing. ... Eric Harslem |
| 2024-10-22 03:15:15 +0200 | <sm> | allowed us to apply this unproven software technique to a large and important piece of software - successfully. Dan Ingalls, Alan Borning, and Dave Gifford all later noted the similarities between the traits approach and the flavors approach of the MIT LISP machine. |
| 2024-10-22 03:15:55 +0200 | <sm> | https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/966873.806468 |
| 2024-10-22 03:23:25 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 03:29:53 +0200 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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| 2024-10-22 03:30:15 +0200 | troojg | (~troojg@user/troojg) troojg |
| 2024-10-22 03:30:19 +0200 | pointlessslippe1 | (~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1 |
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| 2024-10-22 03:39:38 +0200 | k_hachig_ | k_hachig |
| 2024-10-22 03:41:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 03:42:47 +0200 | <meejah> | l/window 41 |
| 2024-10-22 03:45:18 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
| 2024-10-22 03:45:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 03:46:17 +0200 | identity | (~identity@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: ERC 5.6.0.30.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.91)) |
| 2024-10-22 03:49:17 +0200 | <dmj`> | rust inlines the instances though I think, haskell uses dictionary passing, and rust doesn't support polymorphic recursion unlike haskell |
| 2024-10-22 03:51:08 +0200 | <dmj`> | monomorphization and polymorphic recursion don't play well |
| 2024-10-22 03:51:24 +0200 | <dmj`> | unless you implement something like intensional type analysis |
| 2024-10-22 03:52:06 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2024-10-22 03:56:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 04:06:07 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The main reason why I like row types is that they are super versatile. Want to do imperative programming? We have effect systems. Want to do OOP? We have every OOP blessing without its curse. Want to do FP? Sure, just do it as normal. Want to do logic programming? Implement MiniKanren. Want to mix all of them? Sure, everything integrates well |
| 2024-10-22 04:08:59 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-10-22 04:10:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> This even works (or seems to work) for optimizations! Want automatic allocation of ADTs? Evidence passing. Want automatic deallocations of ADTs? Perceus et al. Want to join multiple allocations into one for speed? Just inline and combine. Want unboxing? Evidence-pass the size of the type. Want to specialize a polymorphic record type so it can be unboxed? Just defunctionalize and specialize as normal and then... |
| 2024-10-22 04:10:09 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | ... evidence-pass the sizes obtained |
| 2024-10-22 04:12:24 +0200 | sdrfan123 | (~sdrfan123@2607:fb91:db5:49ea:45cf:fed0:ab50:680c) |
| 2024-10-22 04:13:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It even seems to work for generics! Want to use a staged type theory to generate generics at compile time? Just pattern match on the type. Want to do it at runtime? Use recursion, some mapping and clever types. Typecase on the term level? Use the any label. First class patterns? Use the any label. First class messages? Use the any label. Function with arguments in any order? Use the any label and some clever types |
| 2024-10-22 04:13:37 +0200 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:dc88:9a2b:e157:f2e6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-22 04:13:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 04:14:34 +0200 | synchromesh | (~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:dc88:9a2b:e157:f2e6) synchromesh |
| 2024-10-22 04:14:54 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The list goes on and on. A good row typing system saves a lot of headaches. That is why I want them on my lang lol (oh also this is re:OOP-vs-FP) |
| 2024-10-22 04:18:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 2024-10-22 04:44:35 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 04:53:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | I would like row types too. :) |
| 2024-10-22 04:59:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 05:01:10 +0200 | nek0 | (~nek0@user/nek0) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2024-10-22 05:06:10 +0200 | <geekosaur> | sadly, it seems all we are going to get is hacks that pretend to be a viable record system |
| 2024-10-22 05:07:12 +0200 | <geekosaur> | …I wish I understood System F well enough to know why row types supposedly don't fit it |
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| 2024-10-22 06:02:34 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 06:16:24 +0200 | myxos | (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 06:17:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 06:21:43 +0200 | myxos | (~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com) myxokephale |
| 2024-10-22 06:22:13 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 06:24:01 +0200 | <Axman6> | Bowuigi: That sounds like a great blog post to me... got any free time? =) |
| 2024-10-22 06:33:20 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 06:36:29 +0200 | werneta | (~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta |
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| 2024-10-22 06:40:44 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
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| 2024-10-22 06:41:39 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-10-22 06:48:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2024-10-22 07:00:24 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-10-22 07:01:09 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.205) |
| 2024-10-22 07:01:34 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-10-22 07:06:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Sadly not much free time so far, I have a lot of exams these weeks lol |
| 2024-10-22 07:06:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 07:06:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> geekosaur System F fits row types really well tho, like HM and F omega (a few papers use all three and don't complain) |
| 2024-10-22 07:07:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> System FC/GHC Core might be harder to adapt to though; coercions and all the fancy stuff could become problematic, no idea |
| 2024-10-22 07:09:11 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Also GHC is heavily optimized to work with ADTs, naive attempts won't achieve the expected performance. The same thing happened when researchers ported Perceus (+extensions) to OCaml |
| 2024-10-22 07:11:30 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> A quick rundown of the features you need for all the stuff I mentioned would be pretty cool ngl, tho some ideas were born in this chat and have no real implementation or even proper semantics. In particular, I really think the specialization should work, but I never tried writing it down |
| 2024-10-22 07:11:53 +0200 | hgolden__ | (~hgolden@146.70.173.101) hgolden |
| 2024-10-22 07:13:27 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 07:13:49 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@60.53.7.10) rosco |
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| 2024-10-22 07:14:25 +0200 | jinsun | (~jinsun@user/jinsun) jinsun |
| 2024-10-22 07:14:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> What I did try to write is an effect system based on the Van Laarhoven Free Monad. It worked but you need fancy stuff if you want a reasonable feature set (type lambdas, most importantly, and possibly row concatenation, which can't be compiled efficiently yet) |
| 2024-10-22 07:18:02 +0200 | alp | (~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:1068:2132:b192:21de) |
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| 2024-10-22 12:52:35 +0200 | <tromp> | I'm getting a compilation error: • No instance for (MonadFail N.NonEmpty) |
| 2024-10-22 12:53:49 +0200 | <tromp> | doing A b <- ts where ts is N.NonEmpty Term |
| 2024-10-22 12:54:08 +0200 | <mauke> | what do you want to happen if the pattern doesn't match? |
| 2024-10-22 12:54:26 +0200 | mreh | (~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 12:54:27 +0200 | <tromp> | looks like it wants to skip those |
| 2024-10-22 12:54:38 +0200 | <mauke> | ? |
| 2024-10-22 12:55:12 +0200 | <tromp> | it's after a N.sort $ do |
| 2024-10-22 12:55:26 +0200 | <tromp> | and followed by just b |
| 2024-10-22 12:58:28 +0200 | <merijn> | tromp: Any pattern that can fail incurs a MonadFail constraint when used on the left hand of <- |
| 2024-10-22 12:58:53 +0200 | <merijn> | tromp: And N.NonEmpty (according to GHC) does not have a MonadFail instance |
| 2024-10-22 12:59:27 +0200 | <tromp> | i took the code from https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/105991/combinatory-conundrum/106008#106008 (top answer) |
| 2024-10-22 13:00:05 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-10-22 13:00:05 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3211-c257-559a-6e1d-739b-a378.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2 |
| 2024-10-22 13:00:14 +0200 | <tromp> | and the author provides the output of running the code |
| 2024-10-22 13:00:42 +0200 | <kaol> | Monad used to have "fail" as a part of it and old code on the Internet may still expect that to work. |
| 2024-10-22 13:01:09 +0200 | <tromp> | it's a post from 2017 |
| 2024-10-22 13:01:41 +0200 | <kaol> | That's "old" for the purpose of this difference. |
| 2024-10-22 13:02:24 +0200 | <tromp> | oh, i can still run it online with the "Try it online! link |
| 2024-10-22 13:02:28 +0200 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-10-22 13:03:28 +0200 | <kaol> | They may be using an old GHC version or they may give it a catch all MonadFail instance. But this is the reason it won't work if you try it at home. |
| 2024-10-22 13:04:29 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:04:38 +0200 | <kaol> | If your purpose is to just follow some code at home, you may define your own MonadFail instance. But watch out if you think of doing the same in production. |
| 2024-10-22 13:04:46 +0200 | <tromp> | Thanks for help |
| 2024-10-22 13:07:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:07:36 +0200 | <kaol> | To expand on this a bit more: Having fail in Monad was always ugly since it's not a part of the definition in category theory and for many monads, you can't really do anything but invoke "error" if a pattern match failure happens and that's a silent source of partial functions. |
| 2024-10-22 13:08:53 +0200 | <mauke> | ~(A b) <- ts |
| 2024-10-22 13:09:40 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@213.208.215.120) madjestic |
| 2024-10-22 13:10:32 +0200 | <kaol> | I always forget about lazy patterns. |
| 2024-10-22 13:10:57 +0200 | <tromp> | yep; that "fixes" it |
| 2024-10-22 13:11:29 +0200 | <kaol> | Still going to be a run time program breaking event if it happens. |
| 2024-10-22 13:13:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 13:13:50 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:61f:49ca:1cad:ed6) |
| 2024-10-22 13:14:25 +0200 | araujo | (~araujo@45.146.55.99) |
| 2024-10-22 13:16:56 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah |
| 2024-10-22 13:19:41 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2024-10-22 13:23:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:28:34 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:20b:3a00:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen |
| 2024-10-22 13:31:36 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 13:33:46 +0200 | Clint | (~Clint@user/clint) Clint |
| 2024-10-22 13:38:46 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-10-22 13:42:25 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) TheCoffeMaker |
| 2024-10-22 13:46:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:48:08 +0200 | kuribas | (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) |
| 2024-10-22 13:48:57 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-10-22 13:49:53 +0200 | eL_Bart0 | (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (Quit: Restarting) |
| 2024-10-22 13:50:01 +0200 | eL_Bart0- | (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) |
| 2024-10-22 13:50:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2024-10-22 13:52:42 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:53:41 +0200 | araujo | (~araujo@45.146.55.99) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 13:56:34 +0200 | madjestic | (~madjestic@213.208.215.120) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 14:02:49 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-10-22 14:06:32 +0200 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-10-22 14:10:49 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2024-10-22 14:15:13 +0200 | morb | (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-10-22 14:16:21 +0200 | <kqr> | Is there a way to specify in a cabal file that certain modules in a library should not be exposed publically, but available to a test-suite? |
| 2024-10-22 14:19:12 +0200 | <Hecate> | hmm |
| 2024-10-22 14:19:29 +0200 | <Hecate> | Alas I don't think there's such a granularity of exposure available |