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2024-10-13 05:09:34 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
2024-10-13 05:10:00 +0200 <Inst> a function with a type, without any typeclass constraints, of a -> b is equivalent to a -> Void, right?
2024-10-13 05:11:02 +0200 <probie> Inst: can you define "equivalent"? It has the same number of inhabitants
2024-10-13 05:11:34 +0200 <Inst> "essentially the same", which is just as ambiguously useless as equivalent
2024-10-13 05:11:47 +0200 <Inst> i was reading Eric Normand complaining about the meaninglessness of type signatures
2024-10-13 05:12:00 +0200 <Inst> "a -> a doesn't tell you anything", ummm, it tells you it's id
2024-10-13 05:12:27 +0200 <Inst> which gets me thinking to a -> b must be unfulfillable, as well as the possible inhabitants of [a] -> [a]
2024-10-13 05:13:45 +0200 <geekosaur> it's not a -> Void, it's a -> b. the trick being that it must be `undefined`
2024-10-13 05:13:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 05:13:59 +0200 <geekosaur> in the same way that a -> a must be `id`
2024-10-13 05:14:38 +0200 <Lears> `forall a b. a -> b` ~ `forall a. a -> forall b. b` ~ `forall a. a -> Void` ~ `(exists a. a) -> Void` ~ `() -> Void` ~ `Void`
2024-10-13 05:14:41 +0200 <Lears> All isomorphic.
2024-10-13 05:14:45 +0200 <geekosaur> sorry, I mean the only value possible of type `b`
2024-10-13 05:15:30 +0200ephilalethes(~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-10-13 05:20:55 +0200Inst_(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
2024-10-13 05:21:08 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Inst_)))
2024-10-13 05:21:11 +0200Inst_Inst
2024-10-13 05:21:14 +0200 <Inst> geekosaur: but a -> Void is defined, on the term level, exactly the same as a -> b
2024-10-13 05:22:03 +0200 <Inst> also, it implies that any function whose signature ends in an unconstrained type variable, is equivalent to trying to produce a value of type Void
2024-10-13 05:24:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 05:29:04 +0200bh34e5(~bh34e5@user/bh34e5) bh34e5
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2024-10-13 05:31:00 +0200aforemny_(~aforemny@i577BEEEB.versanet.de) aforemny
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2024-10-13 05:32:59 +0200 <probie> Inst: I don't think that last bit is true (depending on what you mean by "unconstrained"). `a -> (a -> b) -> b` is not restricted to `Void`
2024-10-13 05:35:12 +0200 <Inst> i guess i should be more precise when I say constrained
2024-10-13 05:35:31 +0200 <Inst> b there is constrained by its usage in that function, also, hi (&)
2024-10-13 05:39:11 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2024-10-13 05:39:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 05:42:13 +0200 <Inst> also, is it me, but is data families just "i miss OOP class declarations"?
2024-10-13 05:42:58 +0200 <yin> i never got into data families. i'm not sure if i like them
2024-10-13 05:42:59 +0200tcard__(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303)
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2024-10-13 05:43:24 +0200 <yin> can't remember if i ever got to understand them
2024-10-13 05:44:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 05:44:43 +0200 <geekosaur> my feel is that data families are just function definitions spread over multiple source files
2024-10-13 05:44:50 +0200 <geekosaur> or declarations
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2024-10-13 05:45:22 +0200 <geekosaur> I don't see them get used much if at all
2024-10-13 05:45:52 +0200 <geekosaur> type families, OTOH, are the only way to create type functions since you can't make type functions the way you make value level functions
2024-10-13 05:49:03 +0200 <yin> i don't use type families much if at all
2024-10-13 05:49:27 +0200 <yin> but i guess i recognize their utility
2024-10-13 05:49:48 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 05:52:24 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2024-10-13 05:57:59 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2024-10-13 06:03:27 +0200 <Inst> i'm trying to remember someone telling me that you can break derive functor by adding type lambdas
2024-10-13 06:03:44 +0200 <Inst> after I foolishly thought I got one over Hutton by claiming that there's more than one possible functor instance
2024-10-13 06:03:59 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
2024-10-13 06:04:51 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2024-10-13 06:08:15 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Inst/Lears parametricity and "Reason Isomorphically!" to the rescue!
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2024-10-13 06:14:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also note that parametricity only works at the term level. Type families break it
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2024-10-13 07:56:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 08:56:22 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-13 08:56:33 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2024-10-13 08:59:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 09:00:01 +0200tt123109783243(~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2024-10-13 09:00:03 +0200caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2024-10-13 09:00:40 +0200caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2024-10-13 09:03:18 +0200tt123109783243(~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) tt1231
2024-10-13 09:04:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 09:08:21 +0200robobub(uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) robobub
2024-10-13 09:15:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 09:15:42 +0200 <dminuoso> Hoogle has been performing horribly slow for me for several weeks now. What's up with that?
2024-10-13 09:18:32 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's known.. seems to be hard to fix..
2024-10-13 09:18:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> there's another one at https://stackage.org
2024-10-13 09:19:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2024-10-13 09:35:28 +0200loonycyborg_(loonycybor@chat.chantal.wesnoth.org) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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2024-10-13 09:35:39 +0200loonycyborg(loonycybor@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg) loonycyborg
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2024-10-13 09:42:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 10:04:21 +0200lockywolf(~lockywolf@public.lockywolf.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-10-13 10:06:00 +0200lockywolf(~lockywolf@2a03:6000:6f63:638::2) lockywolf
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2024-10-13 10:16:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 10:20:04 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb1159aa082f6c88b685.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2024-10-13 10:21:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 10:25:12 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2024-10-13 10:28:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 10:32:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-10-13 10:32:57 +0200 <kaol> I wish length function was somehow lazier in inequality comparisons. If I have "length xs < 2" I don't care how big it is after the second element.
2024-10-13 10:33:32 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2024-10-13 10:33:55 +0200 <c_wraith> You can do that with genericLength and an inductive natural number type
2024-10-13 10:34:04 +0200crazazy(~crazazy@tilde.town) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-10-13 10:34:12 +0200alp_(~alp@2001:861:e3d6:8f80:9cf9:d6ee:25c3:ffab) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-10-13 10:34:33 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:215:400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2024-10-13 10:34:51 +0200 <kaol> That's a bit execute 3 generations kind of a solution.
2024-10-13 10:36:14 +0200 <Lears> In practice, it's simpler to `null . drop n`.
2024-10-13 10:36:27 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) mreh
2024-10-13 10:36:38 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 10:37:34 +0200 <Lears> Or even `void xs < repeat n ()`.
2024-10-13 10:40:31 +0200 <Lears> replicate*
2024-10-13 10:40:38 +0200 <Lears> I always mix those two up.
2024-10-13 10:42:14 +0200 <mauke> slightly cursed, but I guess I'll take it
2024-10-13 10:43:37 +0200 <kaol> I wonder if GHC's rewrite rules could do it. It'd be pretty cursed too.
2024-10-13 10:43:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 10:44:55 +0200 <mauke> probably, if you break referential transparency
2024-10-13 10:45:19 +0200 <mauke> I can see it working for length xs < 2, but not let n = length xs in n < 2
2024-10-13 10:48:23 +0200 <Lears> @let compareF f g = compare (void f) (void g)
2024-10-13 10:48:25 +0200 <lambdabot> Defined.
2024-10-13 10:48:33 +0200 <Lears> > compareF "abcd" [1..]
2024-10-13 10:48:35 +0200 <lambdabot> LT
2024-10-13 10:48:42 +0200 <Lears> > compareF [1..] "abcd"
2024-10-13 10:48:43 +0200 <lambdabot> GT
2024-10-13 10:48:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-10-13 11:00:37 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
2024-10-13 11:01:32 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2024-10-13 11:01:39 +0200hgolden__(~hgolden@static-198-44-129-115.cust.tzulo.com) hgolden
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2024-10-13 11:03:53 +0200anpad(~pandeyan@user/anpad) anpad
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2024-10-13 11:04:57 +0200madhavanmiui(~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3007:2baa:8000::)
2024-10-13 11:05:42 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
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2024-10-13 11:08:37 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb1159aa082f6c88b685.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2024-10-13 11:09:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 11:11:08 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203)
2024-10-13 11:13:28 +0200kuribas(~user@host-88-217-189-18.customer.m-online.net) kuribas
2024-10-13 11:15:30 +0200nadja(~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-10-13 11:15:30 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:5545:131a:a4af:e344) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2024-10-13 11:17:56 +0200nadja(~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) dequbed
2024-10-13 11:18:42 +0200 <kuribas> Hello from Munihac
2024-10-13 11:18:46 +0200maukewaves
2024-10-13 11:20:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 11:28:30 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
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2024-10-13 11:39:51 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@2a00:23c6:1c8d:901:b94:4566:9d63:4848) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-10-13 11:43:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 11:47:28 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
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2024-10-13 11:49:29 +0200billchenchina-(~billchenc@103.152.35.21) billchenchina
2024-10-13 11:52:47 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i
2024-10-13 11:57:03 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
2024-10-13 11:57:41 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2024-10-13 11:58:54 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-13 11:59:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 11:59:25 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2024-10-13 12:01:07 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux
2024-10-13 12:03:05 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
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2024-10-13 12:05:07 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2024-10-13 12:06:23 +0200tzh_(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2024-10-13 12:07:44 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
2024-10-13 12:14:02 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2024-10-13 12:14:20 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-10-13 12:15:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 12:16:38 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-10-13 12:17:15 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-143-111-204.range86-143.btcentralplus.com)
2024-10-13 12:18:26 +0200dcoutts__(~duncan@2a00:23c6:1c8d:901:b94:4566:9d63:4848) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-13 12:18:46 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
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2024-10-13 12:25:17 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2024-10-13 12:29:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 12:42:38 +0200ok(~ok@37.30.20.33)
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2024-10-13 12:45:03 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:215:400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 12:45:04 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2024-10-13 12:48:42 +0200rosco(~rosco@175.136.22.30) rosco
2024-10-13 12:49:03 +0200son0p(~ff@186.119.83.52) son0p
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2024-10-13 12:51:14 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 12:53:22 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2024-10-13 12:54:21 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 12:57:30 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2024-10-13 13:00:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 13:02:25 +0200mrmr155334346318(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!)
2024-10-13 13:07:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-10-13 13:09:53 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-13 13:12:41 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-cd99-171c-9a65-8209.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 13:15:09 +0200identity(~identity@user/ZharMeny) identity
2024-10-13 13:18:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 13:22:00 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-903d-5ee0-ce29-b158.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
2024-10-13 13:23:28 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2024-10-13 13:23:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 13:24:17 +0200mrmr155334346318(~mrmr@user/mrmr) mrmr
2024-10-13 13:26:10 +0200whosit(~whosit@user/whosit) whosit
2024-10-13 13:30:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 13:31:49 +0200masterbuilder(~quassel@user/masterbuilder) masterbuilder
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2024-10-13 13:42:20 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3408-4ca6-903d-5ee0-ce29-b158.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 13:45:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 13:46:02 +0200 <mauke> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0GYRHPZM/raw/1 - thanks, haddock
2024-10-13 13:46:17 +0200 <lxsameer> i have an array of functions like a -> IO (Maybe a), what is the proper way to call them in order and pass a fixed value for `a` and then bind the return values if it makes sense
2024-10-13 13:47:07 +0200 <lxsameer> I'm using fold at the moment
2024-10-13 13:48:27 +0200 <mauke> :t mapM
2024-10-13 13:48:29 +0200 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
2024-10-13 13:49:01 +0200 <mauke> :t \fs x -> mapM ($ x) fs
2024-10-13 13:49:02 +0200 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (a -> m b) -> a -> m (t b)
2024-10-13 13:49:29 +0200 <mauke> :t \fs x -> mapM ($ x) (fs `asTypeOf` [])
2024-10-13 13:49:30 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => [a -> m b] -> a -> m [b]
2024-10-13 13:49:58 +0200 <lxsameer> cheers
2024-10-13 13:50:21 +0200 <mauke> ... that's just traverse, isn't it
2024-10-13 13:50:23 +0200 <mauke> :t traverse
2024-10-13 13:50:24 +0200 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
2024-10-13 13:50:38 +0200 <mauke> well, mapM is
2024-10-13 13:51:02 +0200 <lxsameer> perfect
2024-10-13 13:51:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 13:51:05 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2024-10-13 13:51:42 +0200 <geekosaur> but mapM is used by so much code that removing it or even just aliasing it is risky to impossible
2024-10-13 13:52:36 +0200 <geekosaur> (just like liftM is fmap but we can't just replace it)
2024-10-13 14:01:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 16:38:17 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb11e5489706f92aa89b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2024-10-13 16:53:17 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
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2024-10-13 17:11:17 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:215:400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-10-13 17:11:59 +0200hc_(~hc@mail.hce.li) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 17:14:02 +0200hc(~hc@mail.hce.li) hc
2024-10-13 17:23:18 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb11e5489706f92aa89b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 17:23:18 +0200fun-safe-math(~fun-safe-@24.21.106.247) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 17:23:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 17:27:28 +0200 <yin> do we have something like Gloss for 3D? what's the closest thing?
2024-10-13 17:30:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 17:34:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 17:34:29 +0200raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) raehik
2024-10-13 17:37:56 +0200 <yin> just found out about not-gloss :P
2024-10-13 17:38:18 +0200 <yin> has anyone used it?
2024-10-13 17:39:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 17:40:49 +0200 <yin> doesn't look like much
2024-10-13 17:41:00 +0200 <yin> i'll keep looking
2024-10-13 17:47:18 +0200user363627(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2024-10-13 17:47:31 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2024-10-13 18:22:01 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> So, I see that hoogle is telling me "(!?) :: [a] -> Int -> Maybe a" is in base, but I'm being told that this function doesn't exist by my compiler. Was it added later?
2024-10-13 18:22:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 18:22:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Like, in a recent version of base, and perhaps my ghc version is too old to have base 4.20
2024-10-13 18:27:09 +0200oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-10-13 18:32:06 +0200op_4(~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 18:32:37 +0200op_4(~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473) op_4
2024-10-13 18:35:06 +0200 <ghoulguy> do you know how to check?
2024-10-13 18:35:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 18:35:50 +0200 <ghoulguy> the docs for each base version are available on hackage
2024-10-13 18:36:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Yeah, I did just check.
2024-10-13 18:36:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Looks like I need to use ghc 9.10
2024-10-13 18:42:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-10-13 18:42:51 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2024-10-13 18:53:04 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2024-10-13 18:53:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
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2024-10-13 18:58:25 +0200 <geekosaur> iqubic, usually I'd hit hoogle (since the official one is either down or unusably slow, I'd use stackage or mango's) and look for a `@since` annotation
2024-10-13 18:58:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 18:59:03 +0200 <geekosaur> (actually I think that renders as italics and smaller text; @since is the source form)
2024-10-13 18:59:45 +0200alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3108-bfa0-0d2f-43c5-eed5-4b88.rev.sfr.net) alexherbo2
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2024-10-13 19:21:11 +0200vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2024-10-13 19:26:00 +0200 <Inst> thank god I'm not capable of modifying GHC part 2938
2024-10-13 19:26:09 +0200 <Inst> scoped typeclasses
2024-10-13 19:26:13 +0200 <Inst> (i don't think Idris has that?)
2024-10-13 19:26:20 +0200 <Inst> then using typeclasses as a way of generating objects
2024-10-13 19:26:57 +0200 <Inst> \you could do it, it'd be funny (in a stapler to your forehead kind of way), but why?
2024-10-13 19:27:23 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) mreh
2024-10-13 19:27:33 +0200comonad(~comonad@p200300d0272bda000e01a379c24cc428.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-10-13 19:28:01 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-10-13 19:28:43 +0200 <geekosaur> isn't that more emulating SML/NJ's `open`?
2024-10-13 19:29:00 +0200 <geekosaur> in some bass-ackwards fashion?
2024-10-13 19:30:51 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-10-13 19:33:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 19:34:07 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:5545:131a:a4af:e344) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-10-13 19:34:38 +0200 <Inst> I'm not familiar with SML/NJ's open
2024-10-13 19:35:06 +0200 <Inst> I'm wondering right now why Haskell made the decision to not go to typeclasses by default (although typeclasses were a later introduction)
2024-10-13 19:35:13 +0200 <Inst> it's probably a type safety thing
2024-10-13 19:35:14 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:5545:131a:a4af:e344) synchromesh
2024-10-13 19:35:31 +0200 <Inst> also, having every type error turn into "no instance of ..." is probably really annoying
2024-10-13 19:39:53 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.22.252.56) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2024-10-13 19:44:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-10-13 19:44:44 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:215:400:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen
2024-10-13 19:49:29 +0200 <geekosaur> importing a (usually parameterized, i.e. "functor" in SML/NJ terminology, as distinct from Haskell's) module locally so you can use it in a set of local-ish bindings
2024-10-13 19:51:12 +0200 <geekosaur> (by "local-ish", I mean the "local" keyword to create a local context applied to what are otherwise top level bindings)
2024-10-13 19:53:50 +0200 <geekosaur> also, it's not type safety. typeclasses have distinct limitations, in particular that instances are global (although admittedly that part is type safety in that local typeclass instances would give rise to unsoundness)
2024-10-13 19:55:31 +0200 <geekosaur> types at least can be local to a module if they're not exported; typeclass instances are always exported
2024-10-13 19:56:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 20:00:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:01:26 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) motherfsck
2024-10-13 20:05:37 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:06:29 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2024-10-13 20:06:40 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2024-10-13 20:11:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 20:12:24 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-10-13 20:13:00 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
2024-10-13 20:13:59 +0200 <monochrom> Not sure what "Haskell made the decision to not go to typeclasses by default" means (does it even mean anything?), but type classes did not even exist until some Haskell people (eg Wadler, Jones) invented it for Haskell. As in, no other language had it back then.
2024-10-13 20:14:58 +0200 <geekosaur> context suggests the intent is "uses typeclass constraints instead of types for everything". which is still confused, as how can you have typeclass constraints without types to resolve them to?
2024-10-13 20:15:33 +0200 <geekosaur> not to mention that now mono-traversable etc. need to be in base for it to be actually usable, but mono-traversable has its own problems
2024-10-13 20:16:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:18:04 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) mreh
2024-10-13 20:18:48 +0200 <Inst> monochrom: overload all functions by default based on types
2024-10-13 20:19:27 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, that we know, it's obvious.
2024-10-13 20:20:09 +0200 <monochrom> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-November/086220.html
2024-10-13 20:20:19 +0200 <geekosaur> also I'd like tonote that Haskell was supposed to be relatively easily implementable and the H98 and H2010 reports at least try to avoid specifying things that would make implementing it de novo too complex
2024-10-13 20:20:38 +0200 <geekosaur> requiring a constraint solver even more vcomplicated than the one GHC hsas currently goes against the grain of that
2024-10-13 20:23:12 +0200vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-10-13 20:24:56 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2024-10-13 20:25:16 +0200 <Inst> this is where we are with lawless typeclasses
2024-10-13 20:25:16 +0200 <Inst> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-November/086220.html
2024-10-13 20:25:20 +0200 <Inst> https://www.tweag.io/blog/2021-06-23-deconstructing-class/
2024-10-13 20:28:27 +0200 <Square> Sorry if repetative, but I wonder if there is a schema/protocol description (schema first) that A) That does type parameters B) Does unions / sum types. C) isn't built for modyfing an existing protocol with removals / additions. D) has a haskell implementation. I feel protobuf and cap'n proto doesn't fulfill these criterias. Also It would be neat if it could generate a schema from a set of Haskell types.
2024-10-13 20:29:05 +0200 <Square> Also I'd be glad if it does binary (de-/)serialization.
2024-10-13 20:30:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 20:30:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> So, I'm looking to use the MemoTrie package for some memoization of my code. I have a datatype of the form "data Pyramid = Pyramid !Int !(Set (Int, Int))" and I'd like to use the "memo" function, but there's no instance for "HasTrie Pyramid".
2024-10-13 20:30:15 +0200 <monochrom> IMO aeson and cassava qualify. But you can argue that I don't understand your point C.
2024-10-13 20:31:11 +0200 <geekosaur> Why do I feel like you're reaching for ASN.1?
2024-10-13 20:31:22 +0200 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Is this something I'll be able to make work? Or is there no way to do it, because ultimately I'd need a "HasTrie instance for (Set (Int, Int))"
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2024-10-13 20:32:48 +0200 <geekosaur> Otherwise I think you can use aeson with BSON?
2024-10-13 20:34:42 +0200 <geekosaur> (BTW, ASN.1 wasn't a recommendation; it was a warning)
2024-10-13 20:34:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:35:01 +0200 <Square> geekosaur, does ASN.1 handle type parameters?
2024-10-13 20:35:13 +0200 <Square> oh =D
2024-10-13 20:35:24 +0200 <geekosaur> it is typed, certainly
2024-10-13 20:35:38 +0200 <geekosaur> it's also an absolute nightmare that even experts regularly get wrong
2024-10-13 20:36:45 +0200 <Square> I thought Aeson/Bson was json only. Also thought they were primarly schemaless.
2024-10-13 20:37:30 +0200 <geekosaur> JSON has schemas and there's at least two aeson add-on packages that support them. meanwhile the B in BSON means "binary"
2024-10-13 20:37:46 +0200 <monochrom> I almost thought you were recommending ASN.1 :)
2024-10-13 20:37:56 +0200 <geekosaur> and aeson has a lot of BSON interop
2024-10-13 20:39:24 +0200 <geekosaur> the main problem is that neither is very typed
2024-10-13 20:39:25 +0200 <Square> Ideally I'd like a protocol that doesn't include the name of all fields or schema-based if you will.
2024-10-13 20:39:51 +0200 <monochrom> I disbelieve the claim "JSON is schemaless". More accurately, I believe that that claim should have no semantics, i.e., in the same genre as "this sentence is false" i.e. it doesn't even have a truth value.
2024-10-13 20:40:18 +0200 <monochrom> You can clearly use JSON in a schemaful or schemaless way as you see fit.
2024-10-13 20:41:10 +0200 <geekosaur> hell, pretty much every JSON API with a machine-readable API specification is using a JSON schema of some variety
2024-10-13 20:41:23 +0200 <dminuoso> JSON has a schema. It is called RFC 8259
2024-10-13 20:41:52 +0200 <monochrom> Oh heh.
2024-10-13 20:43:40 +0200 <monochrom> If you don't want to serialize field names, there is cassava then. :)
2024-10-13 20:44:35 +0200 <Square> Sure sure. I just mean they don't rely on schema. The schema descriptions came later. When I glanced at Json-schema and concluded it doesn't have support type parameters.
2024-10-13 20:44:46 +0200 <monochrom> Generally the way people use CSV, you can choose to store or not store field names. (And even when you store field names, it is just once in the first line.)
2024-10-13 20:45:26 +0200 <monochrom> OK but there is a reason I said "aeson and cassava" rather than arbitrary JSON and CSV.
2024-10-13 20:45:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 20:46:02 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-128-2-51.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:46:09 +0200 <monochrom> So I mean the very specific way aeson's and cassava's default auto-derived instances can do sum types and type parameters.
2024-10-13 20:46:16 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2497:300:5545:131a:a4af:e344) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5)
2024-10-13 20:46:51 +0200 <dminuoso> Square: Which of your requirements does protobuf not fulfill?
2024-10-13 20:46:54 +0200 <geekosaur> come to think of it, are you sure you don't mean the default serialization/deserialization of binary or cereal?
2024-10-13 20:47:44 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah, binary and cereal should also do those things and pretty much automatable.
2024-10-13 20:50:24 +0200 <Square> dminuoso, Maybe I missed it, but I thought it didn't have support for type parameters.
2024-10-13 20:50:44 +0200 <dminuoso> What do you mean by type parameters?
2024-10-13 20:51:24 +0200 <Square> data MyType a b = MyType a b
2024-10-13 20:51:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:52:10 +0200 <dminuoso> Add a (Typeable a, Typeable b) constraint to your serialization function, and work with that?
2024-10-13 20:52:29 +0200 <dminuoso> What you are asking about has nothing to do with the serialization format
2024-10-13 20:53:38 +0200 <dminuoso> Depending on the surrounding code, you could also work with a GADT
2024-10-13 20:53:40 +0200 <Square> dminuoso, I feel it does have something todo with schema generation though.
2024-10-13 20:54:19 +0200 <_d0t> ohai! Is there a way to force GHC to pass command-line args to GCC directly instead of through a resource file (ghc_X.rsp)?
2024-10-13 20:54:29 +0200CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip1f13e94e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-10-13 20:54:34 +0200 <dminuoso> Dont think of a 1:1 mapping of haskell, and just think about how you encode the idea in a format, and then keep a schema for that.
2024-10-13 20:54:36 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2024-10-13 20:54:39 +0200Pixi(~Pixi@user/pixi) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-10-13 20:55:28 +0200 <monochrom> resource file? Is that Windows?
2024-10-13 20:55:28 +0200 <geekosaur> _d0t, generally not because of Windows compatibility
2024-10-13 20:55:36 +0200 <geekosaur> I think they mean response file
2024-10-13 20:55:41 +0200 <_d0t> geekosaur: ok but what if I don't care about windows?
2024-10-13 20:55:47 +0200 <geekosaur> the problem is that Windows command lines are way too short
2024-10-13 20:56:09 +0200 <_d0t> yeah, i meant response file https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Response_Files
2024-10-13 20:56:13 +0200 <Square> dminuoso, Maybe I should. I just feel most of these formats are crude and doesn't lend themselves in replicating a data model in another language.
2024-10-13 20:56:29 +0200 <dminuoso> Square: As they shouldn't.
2024-10-13 20:56:36 +0200 <geekosaur> you''d have to ask in #ghc but I strongly suspect they're not interested in having to maintain multiple ways to invoke gcc
2024-10-13 20:56:43 +0200 <dminuoso> In fact, you should probably have an intermediate data type representing the format instead.
2024-10-13 20:56:58 +0200 <dminuoso> Tying your wire format to your semantic data model is a classic mistake.
2024-10-13 20:57:07 +0200 <_d0t> geekosaur: i mean, i was just wondering if there was a way already.
2024-10-13 20:57:09 +0200 <dminuoso> Certainly promoted by the ease of `Generic` and` ToJSON/FromJSON.
2024-10-13 20:57:13 +0200 <_d0t> Otherwise I'll just have to hack around this.
2024-10-13 20:57:53 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-10-13 20:58:07 +0200 <Square> dminuoso, I know an argument, it could make my work so much easier in don't having to replicating the model by hand in another language.
2024-10-13 20:58:25 +0200 <Square> s/in don't/in I don't/
2024-10-13 20:59:31 +0200 <dminuoso> It increases coupling, introduces bugs quickly when you make modifications, and delays separating the network representation properly, possibly with versioning even.
2024-10-13 21:00:02 +0200 <dminuoso> How many data types are we talking about here?
2024-10-13 21:00:06 +0200caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2024-10-13 21:00:17 +0200 <dminuoso> Also think about code generators (the other way around), they tend to be esaier.
2024-10-13 21:00:42 +0200caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2024-10-13 21:01:38 +0200 <Square> My use case is migrating parts of an application to Haskell and having an RPC mechanism calling Haskell from Java. Ideally i would like to replicate a bunch of haskell types in java (limiting myself to constructs it supports).
2024-10-13 21:01:53 +0200 <Square> parts of a java application*
2024-10-13 21:02:29 +0200vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2024-10-13 21:03:00 +0200 <Square> The generation of schema + java types would be part of the build, so any changes in types would lead to compile errors - if not adapted in java.
2024-10-13 21:03:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 21:03:56 +0200 <Square> dminuoso, "Q: how many types". Unclear. But possibly 50ish.
2024-10-13 21:05:56 +0200Pixi(~Pixi@user/pixi) Pixi
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2024-10-13 21:06:42 +0200 <monochrom> _d0t: Now I'm curious. (Just curious.) What needs to be hacked around? :)
2024-10-13 21:08:03 +0200 <monochrom> Is it like you have your own shell script and you name it "gcc" to intercept usages of gcc and change some arguments and you would really like to avoid parsing a response file? :)
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2024-10-13 21:27:58 +0200 <_d0t> monochrom: yup, exactly that
2024-10-13 21:28:11 +0200 <_d0t> except it's not exactly my own script, but otherwise correct.
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2024-10-13 22:36:42 +0200 <Inst> there is no way to get closed typeclasses, right?
2024-10-13 22:37:01 +0200 <Inst> but of course if typeclasses weren't a bolt-on, class and instance keywords would be in import syntax :(
2024-10-13 22:38:49 +0200 <Rembane> Inst: What's the use case?
2024-10-13 22:39:35 +0200 <monochrom> We mimick closed type classes by not exporting method names of the type class so no one can write instances outside.
2024-10-13 22:40:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn
2024-10-13 22:40:32 +0200 <Inst> ah, okay, thanks
2024-10-13 22:41:39 +0200 <geekosaur> maybe you want closed type families instead?
2024-10-13 22:44:04 +0200 <monochrom> It is also incorrect to deduce from "no `class` keyword in import/export syntax" to "bolt on". The true reason is there is no ambiguity therefore there doesn't need a keyword for disambiguation, unlike pattern synonyms.
2024-10-13 22:45:17 +0200 <monochrom> It is also incorrect to deduce from "no `instance` keyword in import/export syntax" to "bolt on". The true reason is there is no choice therefore there doesn't need a keyword to express choice. Instances must be always exported for coherence reasons.
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2024-10-13 22:45:58 +0200 <geekosaur> also, the keywords in import/export syntax mark the bolted-on parts
2024-10-13 22:46:06 +0200 <monochrom> It's high time you actually understand, or at least accept, coherence and what's wrong with incoherence, before you continue to spew uninformed opinions.
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