2024/09/19

2024-09-19 00:00:20 +0200 <Zer000> mauke, oh so it's how my list gets used?
2024-09-19 00:01:08 +0200 <Zer000> You're probably right... maybe i should profile my program then
2024-09-19 00:02:22 +0200 <int-e> hmmm https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2009-April/021173.html references the motto :P
2024-09-19 00:02:30 +0200 <Rembane> int-e: Good stuff! :D
2024-09-19 00:02:51 +0200 <c_wraith> Zer000: note that that line creates a list that's only three elements long. did you want [x, y .. z] instead?
2024-09-19 00:03:43 +0200 <mauke> <Zer000> and my code isn't even right, it's building a list with three things in it, but I wanted to use the [n1, n2...n] syntax
2024-09-19 00:03:51 +0200 <c_wraith> oh, whoops
2024-09-19 00:04:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-19 00:04:59 +0200 <Zer000> magic_rb are you replying to me from matrix? I got confused by the briding for a second
2024-09-19 00:05:26 +0200 <Zer000> you guys should use the matrix appservices bridge IMO it's way better but slightly more annoying to set up
2024-09-19 00:05:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Zer000 yes is it showing up weirdly on the irc side?
2024-09-19 00:05:50 +0200 <Zer000> It looks like someone is replying to you
2024-09-19 00:06:10 +0200 <int-e> Tge motto appears in these slides from 2003. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/wearing-hair-shirt-retrospective-haskell-2003/ (via https://es.costashine-autospa.com/wg-cgi/marc.info/?l=haskell-cafe&m=120491982137885&w=2 )
2024-09-19 00:06:10 +0200 <Zer000> Like this: haskellbridge: <magic_rb> Zer000 yes is it showing up weirdly on the irc side?
2024-09-19 00:06:49 +0200 <int-e> hmm, that second link is suspicious, should be https://marc.info/?l=haskell-cafe&m=120491982137885&w=2
2024-09-19 00:07:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Zer000 ah, i should finally get around to using heisenbridge to interact with this room, works much better in my experience
2024-09-19 00:08:02 +0200 <Rembane> int-e: This gets even better! Thank you!
2024-09-19 00:10:19 +0200Squared(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-19 00:11:06 +0200 <int-e> That timing feels about right to me; my memory isn't good enough to say whether the motto was conceived then or has an earlier origin.
2024-09-19 00:11:16 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 00:11:20 +0200 <monochrom> Haha "gives too much power to implementers?" came true.
2024-09-19 00:12:39 +0200 <Rembane> The most powerful implementers!
2024-09-19 00:12:40 +0200 <int-e> hugs was still alive in 2003
2024-09-19 00:13:26 +0200 <int-e> Heck we had a cambric explosion of Haskell compilers for a while. Darwin killed them all or something.
2024-09-19 00:14:48 +0200 <Rembane> Too few lovely islands for them to thrive?
2024-09-19 00:14:55 +0200EvanRsues GHC for being a monopoly
2024-09-19 00:15:52 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-19 00:16:12 +0200 <int-e> (Realistically none of them had much staying power, and people who would've implemented Haskell around 2000 are now implementing new languages instead. A trend that maybe started with Clean? I don't really know, but it's an early example that I remember.)
2024-09-19 00:16:48 +0200 <Rembane> That seems reasonable. And I think it's better for the world to have more languages rather than having more implementations of Haskell.
2024-09-19 00:17:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-19 00:18:53 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> the hybrids thrived in niches, curry e.g.
2024-09-19 00:19:58 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> u need a uni with a renewable labor pool
2024-09-19 00:20:44 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> and not just some guy in a dept
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2024-09-19 00:54:15 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
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2024-09-19 01:01:07 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 01:03:43 +0200 <c_wraith> can you allow-newer a native dependency?
2024-09-19 01:04:55 +0200 <c_wraith> the cairo package seems to depend on librsvg-2.0 < 2.51 and debian stable currently packages 2.54
2024-09-19 01:05:21 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb224ccb10fade5fa5a7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-19 01:05:34 +0200 <c_wraith> err. the svgcairo package.
2024-09-19 01:05:35 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-09-19 01:06:17 +0200 <c_wraith> Huh. I suppose I could have just tried. It seems to be trying to build now, at least.
2024-09-19 01:06:22 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-09-19 01:07:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-19 01:08:54 +0200remedan_(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-09-19 01:09:11 +0200 <c_wraith> didn't actually work. Seems it's not passing correct flags to pkg-config.
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2024-09-19 03:20:09 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-19 03:22:10 +0200 <blober> Based on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HsYAML-0.2.1.4/docs/Data-YAML.html#g:3 , I don't get how
2024-09-19 03:22:11 +0200 <blober> ```
2024-09-19 03:22:11 +0200 <blober> example = decode1 "- 1\n- 2" :: Either (Pos, String) [Int]
2024-09-19 03:22:12 +0200 <blober> ```
2024-09-19 03:22:12 +0200 <blober> the above works, but this doesn't
2024-09-19 03:22:13 +0200 <blober> ```
2024-09-19 03:22:13 +0200 <blober> my_example = decode1 "- foo" :: Either (Pos, String) [String]
2024-09-19 03:22:14 +0200 <blober> ```
2024-09-19 03:22:15 +0200 <blober> ```
2024-09-19 03:22:15 +0200 <blober>     • No instance for ‘FromYAML Char’ arising from a use of ‘decode1’
2024-09-19 03:22:16 +0200 <blober> ```
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2024-09-19 03:31:16 +0200 <Axman6> blober: Does using [Text] work?
2024-09-19 03:31:50 +0200 <Axman6> because I think it's actually expecting to parse [[Char]] which is where that error is coming from
2024-09-19 03:32:44 +0200 <Axman6> since there's no isntance for FromYAML for Char it doesn't even get to the point of trying to parse.
2024-09-19 03:33:42 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 03:33:44 +0200 <blober> yes, you were correct
2024-09-19 03:38:20 +0200 <blober> can you preserve comments when dumping yaml? I see there was some work in https://github.com/haskell-hvr/HsYAML/pull/24 but not sure how to use it
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2024-09-19 03:51:39 +0200lystra(~lystra@208.59.105.41) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-19 03:51:41 +0200 <Axman6> I'm not familiar with the library, but it looks like support for comments is in the released version. What do you mean when you say dumping yaml?
2024-09-19 03:53:17 +0200 <blober> like doing roundtrip and inserting a key
2024-09-19 03:54:40 +0200 <Axman6> I have a feeling you might be able to do it using the event based interface but I can't see how to do it using the Node type
2024-09-19 03:54:59 +0200 <blober> I see
2024-09-19 03:58:38 +0200 <Axman6> how you use that to change specific parts of the structure I'm not sure
2024-09-19 03:58:47 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-19 03:59:17 +0200 <Axman6> but I'd start here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HsYAML-0.2.1.4/docs/Data-YAML-Event.html#g:1
2024-09-19 04:01:11 +0200 <blober> TY
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2024-09-19 10:44:55 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-09-19 10:46:51 +0200 <kuribas> Man, I miss having dependent types with python pandas, where I could have the compiler tell me when a field is missing from a dataframe.
2024-09-19 10:48:57 +0200 <kuribas> I know for many the overhead of static (dependent) types swamps the benefits, but I don't feel it.
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2024-09-19 13:54:05 +0200 <dminuoso> The biggest price of dependent types is the lack of a rich ecosystem of libraries and tools for the same languages.
2024-09-19 13:54:51 +0200 <dminuoso> It's just a sad reality that when you want to solve problem XYZ, it's often not worth the perceived benefit of some additional safety over the convenience of not having to write 90% of the code required for the solution.
2024-09-19 13:54:56 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627)
2024-09-19 13:55:30 +0200 <dminuoso> In practice, a rich library ecosystem beats a good language.
2024-09-19 13:59:05 +0200sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2024-09-19 14:22:23 +0200ChanServ+o litharge
2024-09-19 14:22:24 +0200litharge-bo *!*@46.56.199.104 litharge
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2024-09-19 14:36:02 +0200 <L29Ah> gotta create a good libraries foundation
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2024-09-19 15:02:06 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
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2024-09-19 15:12:50 +0200 <kuribas> dminuoso: That's not the price of dependent types, it's the price of anything new.
2024-09-19 15:13:19 +0200 <kuribas> At one point it was like this for haskell, or lazy functional languages.
2024-09-19 15:19:48 +0200 <[exa]> basically for any "practical" language
2024-09-19 15:20:35 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@149.222.143.226) (Quit: ash3en)
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2024-09-19 15:22:46 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2024-09-19 15:34:42 +0200 <cheater> if we're gonna do an overhaul of the haskell ecosystem we should have:
2024-09-19 15:36:14 +0200 <cheater> 1. linear or affine types, controllable memory layout, copy counting, and the ability for multiple runtimes to use the same memory objects
2024-09-19 15:36:33 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2001:871:263:a33:ce4c:87cf:207:8819) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-19 15:36:42 +0200 <cheater> 2. some other stuff i was going to say but i forgot
2024-09-19 15:37:13 +0200 <mauke> 3 a partridge in a pear tree
2024-09-19 15:37:17 +0200 <cheater> 3. a type system for tracking the complexity of algorithms
2024-09-19 15:39:01 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-146-25-125.range86-146.btcentralplus.com)
2024-09-19 15:40:38 +0200mari-estel(~mari-este@2a02:3032:315:94fa:216:3eff:fe65:4eef)
2024-09-19 15:40:59 +0200srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2024-09-19 15:58:56 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 16:00:57 +0200 <probie> Exploring linear types in Haskell is fun. I don't think they should be a base for optimisation. At that point, just make a new language
2024-09-19 16:04:12 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-146-25-125.range86-146.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-19 16:04:14 +0200 <probie> Haskell is a strongly typed functional language with laziness and typeclasses. Any attempt to move away from any part of that is going to get a lot of flak from certain parts of the community
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2024-09-19 16:32:49 +0200 <kuribas> Haskell already has linear types
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2024-09-19 16:47:20 +0200 <kuribas> dminuoso: in that sense Python would be the better language, but I am still convinced python is a bad language for any large projects, that need to be stable and long running.
2024-09-19 16:47:51 +0200athan(~athan@2600:382:1f1b:231a:7a65:ae9e:1d60:7f0d)
2024-09-19 16:47:56 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 16:47:59 +0200 <kuribas> dminuoso: That's where you get the nonsense to run in kubernetes where you can scale and restart at will.
2024-09-19 16:49:00 +0200 <kaol> Is it good for small projects either?
2024-09-19 16:49:17 +0200 <kuribas> For one of scripts. For a small POC of a calculation.
2024-09-19 16:49:50 +0200 <kuribas> Where it's too big for bash, but not big enough for java.
2024-09-19 16:50:31 +0200 <mari-estel> django is quite powerful, also data crunching with python is neat
2024-09-19 16:51:11 +0200 <kuribas> It is neat, until you have to maintain a project that has been written by researchers, and made into a product just because they could.
2024-09-19 16:51:48 +0200 <mari-estel> just because that's the industry, i don't see researchers striving to ship it
2024-09-19 16:53:53 +0200chromo(~chromo@210.185.108.225)
2024-09-19 16:55:24 +0200tabemann(~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:63b4:82b1:f852:f702) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-19 17:02:47 +0200 <kuribas> sure, it's managers pushing to ship research level code.
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2024-09-19 17:58:21 +0200 <dmj`> thesisware
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2024-09-19 18:22:43 +0200 <cheater> why are we suddenly talking about django?
2024-09-19 18:22:56 +0200dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.204.156)
2024-09-19 18:28:23 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2024-09-19 18:28:40 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-09-19 18:35:47 +0200 <srazkvt> hey, a little question, with cabal, can i depend on a package that is just on my drive ? i have a library i haven't yet released because i'm still figuring out a proper api for it, but i want something a little more complex than just an example to actually test it out
2024-09-19 18:36:04 +0200 <srazkvt> or should i just make it an example for now ?
2024-09-19 18:38:49 +0200 <sclv> you can use a cabal.project file to point to that package and have something else depend on it
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2024-09-19 19:02:08 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-09-19 20:18:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> srazkvt: more precisely: put "packages: . path/to/your/example" in a `cabal.project` file
2024-09-19 20:18:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> then the directory with that cabal.project file is now a "project" that contains two packages
2024-09-19 20:19:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> those packages will override hackage, so if you then "just" depend on the other as usual, cabal will find it
2024-09-19 20:20:17 +0200 <srazkvt> huh
2024-09-19 20:20:19 +0200 <srazkvt> interesting
2024-09-19 20:20:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> in particular, if you e.g. want to locally patch a hackage package, say 'containers', then you can make a local git clone of 'containers'. Then whenever you put that clone in a cabal.project, the other packages in that "project" will use the local version of 'containers'
2024-09-19 20:21:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> this is useful if you have a number of related packages that you want to develop together, that all also exist on hackage
2024-09-19 20:21:08 +0200 <srazkvt> i ended up making a local noindex cabal repository and manually sdist but that will probably be much better
2024-09-19 20:21:17 +0200 <srazkvt> yeah im in the second case
2024-09-19 20:21:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> put them all in a directory, put a cabal.project file in there that lists all of them, and then `cabal build` will use the local stuff
2024-09-19 20:22:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> srazkvt: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project-description-file.html
2024-09-19 20:22:29 +0200visilii(~visilii@46.61.242.158) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-19 20:23:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> cabal.project files don't get uploaded to hackage, they're a local-only thing
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2024-09-19 21:10:07 +0200 <mreh> hmm, why might stack be hanging...
2024-09-19 21:10:23 +0200rvalue-rvalue
2024-09-19 21:12:18 +0200 <mreh> this is an idle process hanging, rather than taking a long time to compile hang
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2024-09-19 21:19:47 +0200 <mreh> -cabal-verbosity shows nothing at all... so odd
2024-09-19 21:20:25 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-19 21:24:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> mreh: what OS are you on? If linux, try 'strace <your stack command>'
2024-09-19 21:24:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> shows the system calls that it does, and crucially it outputs something when the call _started_ as well as when it ends
2024-09-19 21:25:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> iirc dtrace can do the same on macos
2024-09-19 21:25:31 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-09-19 21:27:28 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627)
2024-09-19 21:28:07 +0200 <mreh> The last line is "futex(0x7fff635c7af4, FUTEX_WAIT_PRI" but the rest is cut off. Deadlocked on something maybe?
2024-09-19 21:31:54 +0200Blasius(~Blasius@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-19 21:33:04 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-19 21:41:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah, futex is a mutex operation
2024-09-19 21:42:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you show the whole output, perhaps someone can see something
2024-09-19 21:42:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> (strace -o log <...>)
2024-09-19 21:44:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> mreh: it could also be that stack is waiting on some child process to finish that never finishes. Are there any live child processes when stack hangs?
2024-09-19 21:44:51 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2024-09-19 21:45:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> (pstree $(pgrep stack))
2024-09-19 21:46:44 +0200 <monochrom> Haha thanks for the pstree tip. I have always only known htop.
2024-09-19 21:47:37 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@87.215.131.102)
2024-09-19 21:47:49 +0200 <mreh> no child processes
2024-09-19 21:47:49 +0200Blasius(~Blasius@2.219.56.221)
2024-09-19 21:49:23 +0200 <mreh> it's only when I add this once package `hsnoise`
2024-09-19 21:49:30 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099)
2024-09-19 21:49:35 +0200 <mreh> so maybe that's a clue
2024-09-19 21:49:52 +0200 <mreh> it's not in the stackage snapshot I'm using
2024-09-19 21:50:35 +0200 <mreh> who wants 4.5k lines of strace output?