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2026-06-24 01:08:21 +0000 <monochrom> My answer to "why you accept static and strong typing but not totality, it sounds inconsistent" is that trade-offs and cost-vs-benefit considerations are consistent. Strong static typing gives me a lot of benefits with very little cost and/or inconvenience. Totality is a lot of cost for what it's worth.
2026-06-24 01:09:49 +0000 <monochrom> IMO totality is never going to be worthwhile because, for the same price, you should go for big-Theta complexity instead. I.e., don't bother proving termination; if anything, go straight for proving linear time or log time or whatever. Who cares about termination if it ends up being triple-expoenential time.
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2026-06-24 01:11:42 +0000 <monochrom> Almost every termination proof hides a time bound so it is counterproductive to throw the time bound away.
2026-06-24 01:12:13 +0000 <monochrom> (It is not like you have a non-constructive proof of termination using the axiom of choice, is it? >:) )
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2026-06-24 01:17:55 +0000 <jreicher> A type system that checked complexity would be really interesting.
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2026-06-24 01:42:41 +0000 <EvanR> monochrom, to solve for totality first solve for complexity then set n = finite
2026-06-24 01:43:15 +0000 <EvanR> monochrom, ~~axiom of choice~~ markov's principle
2026-06-24 01:43:44 +0000 <EvanR> if you base the argument on that, it might actually be convincing
2026-06-24 01:44:12 +0000 <monochrom> Err sorry, what is markov's principle again?
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2026-06-24 01:46:38 +0000 <EvanR> for any function on naturals f, if there not existing an n such that f(n)=0 would be a contradiction, then there's some n where f(n) = 0
2026-06-24 01:46:55 +0000 <jreicher> EvanR: I don't think anybody said "solve for complexity" in the general case
2026-06-24 01:47:20 +0000 <EvanR> that was a joke in analogy to solve the problem for all n then set n = 2
2026-06-24 01:48:16 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah how to visualize 6 dimensions? Visualize n dimensions, then set n=6. >:)
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2026-06-24 01:52:24 +0000 <jreicher> :)
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2026-06-24 02:27:44 +0000 <EvanR> *decidable f
2026-06-24 02:28:12 +0000 <EvanR> proposition on naturals
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2026-06-24 02:59:54 +0000 <monochrom> Oh, decidable f makes the principle much less powerful. I mean much more realistic and closer to being constructive!
2026-06-24 03:01:25 +0000 <EvanR> yes the realization of this principle is... the purported n can't not exist, so just start looping through them all in order until you find it
2026-06-24 03:02:00 +0000 <EvanR> as you sit there waiting for the search to terminate, you might start to feel like you're looking at the "proof" that the turing machine is infinite
2026-06-24 03:02:11 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah.
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2026-06-24 05:32:24 +0000 <dolio> Markov's principle says that semi-decidable propositions are ¬¬-stable.
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2026-06-24 06:01:39 +0000Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) Axman6
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2026-06-24 06:02:57 +0000 <gentauro> «monochrom> Or even better, don't use it, use a plain editor» I do appreciate some warnings for when I do "corner-cutting" as in `head`. But some, in a terminal IDE, are just too distracting
2026-06-24 06:03:39 +0000Enzo(~Enzo@re-byods-146-50-220-52.wireless.uva.nl) ()
2026-06-24 06:04:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-24 06:04:20 +0000 <gentauro> btw, I can see that some of you suggest a totally checker for GHC. However, if Haskell becomes a total language (apps will always terminate) then, it's no longer Turing Complete amirite?
2026-06-24 06:05:53 +0000 <gentauro> btw, I recently saw this SPJ podcast -> https://youtu.be/xcB_LF3cdqw and I didn't knew that GHC translated: Haskell code -> Typed Lambda Calculus as System F (I knew this) -> C-- (I did NOT know this) -> LLVM instructs :o
2026-06-24 06:06:20 +0000 <gentauro> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C--
2026-06-24 06:07:04 +0000 <gentauro> https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/c--/
2026-06-24 06:07:36 +0000gentaurodo NOT click on http://www.cminusminus.org/ (somebody forgot to renew the domain xD)
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2026-06-24 06:18:32 +0000 <gentauro> so Haskell lives on the shoulders of OCaml? https://github.com/nrnrnr/qc-- (nice)
2026-06-24 06:18:35 +0000 <gentauro> hehe
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2026-06-24 06:30:11 +0000 <dolio> Whether it's Turing complete depends on what you mean by that.
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2026-06-24 06:34:01 +0000 <dolio> You can have a monad that allows you to write partial functions from T to U as `T -> M U`, say. And as long as that can embed into whatever `main` runs, your programs are not really limited.
2026-06-24 06:34:46 +0000 <dolio> It just isn't necessarily the case that there is an equivalent function `T -> U`.
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2026-06-24 06:46:52 +0000 <gentauro> dolio: in the sense that total programming languages has the guarantee that ALL programs will halt.
2026-06-24 06:47:20 +0000 <dolio> That's not what they do.
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2026-06-24 06:52:56 +0000 <gentauro> dolio: hmmm. For example, Idris type-checker only works on total functions right (functions that are guaranteed to terminate)?
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2026-06-24 06:54:12 +0000olivial(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) benjaminl
2026-06-24 06:54:46 +0000gentaurooh, if the man himself states otherwise (Edwin Brady) -> https://cs.stackexchange.com/a/23916 then I'm mistaken
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2026-06-24 07:11:31 +0000 <Leary> monochrom: Don't bother proving /asymptotic/ complexity either. Almost every such proof hides a more precise characterisation of the relationship between arguments and costs in the finite domain we actually care about.
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2026-06-24 08:38:51 +0000petrichor(~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor
2026-06-24 08:44:36 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) danza
2026-06-24 08:48:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-06-24 08:56:21 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e74def439d2f2469ccbb92e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2026-06-24 08:56:40 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e74def439d2f2469ccbb92e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2026-06-24 08:57:53 +0000sus03228(zero@user/zeromomentum) (Quit: the lounge - https://webirc.envs.net)
2026-06-24 09:01:22 +0000sus03228(zero@user/zeromomentum) zeromomentum
2026-06-24 09:04:23 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2026-06-24 09:05:13 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3100:6377:1d00:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-06-24 09:08:40 +0000chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2026-06-24 09:12:17 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 09:20:01 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97)
2026-06-24 09:21:41 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-06-24 09:26:10 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-06-24 09:50:46 +0000tcard_(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303)
2026-06-24 09:50:46 +0000tcard(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-24 10:06:30 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-06-24 10:07:25 +0000tabaqui(~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-06-24 10:10:34 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 10:10:47 +0000chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) chexum
2026-06-24 10:15:52 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-06-24 10:17:43 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3100:6377:1d00:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen
2026-06-24 10:20:20 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2026-06-24 10:33:31 +0000tremon(~tremon@83-80-159-219.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) tremon
2026-06-24 10:37:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-06-24 10:45:44 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 10:46:59 +0000ski(~ski@90-224-14-130-no600.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-24 10:48:29 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 10:48:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-06-24 10:50:05 +0000dtman34(~dtman34@c-73-242-68-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2026-06-24 10:50:25 +0000dtman34(~dtman34@2601:447:d17d:eaf2:8123:c1ff:6dae:d26b) dtman34
2026-06-24 10:52:15 +0000haritz(~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8)
2026-06-24 10:52:15 +0000haritz(~hrtz@2a01:4b00:bc2e:7000:d5af:a266:ca31:5ef8) (Changing host)
2026-06-24 10:52:15 +0000haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2026-06-24 10:52:27 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 10:53:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 242 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:01:57 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@ai070051.d.east.v6connect.net)
2026-06-24 11:05:47 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-06-24 11:06:35 +0000pfc(~pfc@user/pfc) pfc
2026-06-24 11:13:01 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 11:16:09 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@ai070051.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:21:00 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:27:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:28:39 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:5d3c:cbd6:36e7:66a0)
2026-06-24 11:30:59 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 11:31:05 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:32:02 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 11:33:19 +0000berke93(~default@user/berke93) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:34:40 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 11:35:58 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-06-24 11:37:42 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 11:43:39 +0000collide2954(~collide29@user/collide2954) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-06-24 11:50:39 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-24 11:50:57 +0000divlamir(~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir
2026-06-24 11:51:06 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:5d3c:cbd6:36e7:66a0) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 11:55:50 +0000collide2954(~collide29@user/collide2954) collide2954
2026-06-24 12:06:05 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3100:6377:1d00:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 12:09:33 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 12:13:23 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 12:20:55 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 12:23:41 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 12:25:24 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-209-218-237.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline
2026-06-24 12:30:44 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-06-24 12:43:20 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:9570:6803:955e:7fd4)
2026-06-24 12:45:17 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 12:48:00 +0000tabaqui(~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) tabaqui
2026-06-24 12:49:05 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 13:02:07 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@212-40-94-63.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-06-24 13:02:31 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@212-40-94-63.pool.digikabel.hu)
2026-06-24 13:07:41 +0000schuelermine(~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) schuelermine
2026-06-24 13:09:30 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 13:10:27 +0000szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) szkl
2026-06-24 13:23:05 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-209-218-237.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-06-24 13:23:16 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3100:6377:1d00:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen
2026-06-24 13:26:41 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@212-40-94-63.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-06-24 13:26:57 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@212-40-94-63.pool.digikabel.hu)
2026-06-24 13:32:10 +0000hc(~hc@mail.hce.li) (Changing host)
2026-06-24 13:32:10 +0000hc(~hc@user/hc) hc
2026-06-24 13:46:03 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.201) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 13:49:36 +0000schuelermine(~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) (Quit: schuelermine)
2026-06-24 13:52:38 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.197)
2026-06-24 13:57:15 +0000tv(~tv@user/tv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-24 14:04:56 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-209-218-237.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline
2026-06-24 14:05:41 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-209-218-237.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2026-06-24 14:06:31 +0000leppard(~noOne@ipservice-092-209-218-237.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline
2026-06-24 14:08:49 +0000yin(~zero@user/zero) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 14:10:35 +0000yin(~zero@user/zero) zero
2026-06-24 14:19:09 +0000yin(~zero@user/zero) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 14:21:14 +0000yin(~zero@user/zero) zero
2026-06-24 14:25:36 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-06-24 14:31:00 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97)
2026-06-24 14:32:03 +0000tv(~tv@user/tv) tv
2026-06-24 14:38:30 +0000chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2026-06-24 14:43:16 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-06-24 14:43:39 +0000chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2026-06-24 14:48:04 +0000tusko(~uwu@user/tusko) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 14:53:28 +0000tusko(~uwu@user/tusko) tusko
2026-06-24 14:58:31 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.31) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-24 14:58:32 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 14:58:35 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2026-06-24 14:58:51 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-06-24 14:58:52 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97)
2026-06-24 14:59:28 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.31) rainbyte
2026-06-24 15:00:34 +0000jonnie(~jonnie@user/jonnie) jonnie
2026-06-24 15:01:36 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 15:06:49 +0000acidsys(~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-06-24 15:09:29 +0000ft(~ft@p508db6b1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-06-24 15:11:33 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine)
2026-06-24 15:13:04 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 15:14:48 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-24 15:15:09 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 15:17:29 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 15:18:02 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 15:19:47 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 15:20:43 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 15:22:02 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2026-06-24 15:23:43 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-06-24 15:27:08 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-06-24 15:29:04 +0000acidsys(~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) crameleon
2026-06-24 15:34:33 +0000DigitteknohippieDigit
2026-06-24 15:47:25 +0000Anarchos(~Anarchos@91-161-254-16.subs.proxad.net) Anarchos
2026-06-24 15:49:55 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-24 15:50:03 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-24 16:01:24 +0000DigitteknohippieDigit
2026-06-24 16:04:17 +0000chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-24 16:11:00 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2026-06-24 16:13:55 +0000m2(~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-06-24 16:14:44 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:e1be:7d8f:de85:da97)
2026-06-24 16:16:30 +0000m2(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
2026-06-24 16:20:07 +0000tremon(~tremon@83-80-159-219.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2026-06-24 16:24:12 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-06-24 16:29:24 +0000Anarchos(~Anarchos@91-161-254-16.subs.proxad.net) (Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!)
2026-06-24 16:29:53 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal