| 2026-02-24 00:04:22 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 00:08:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 00:11:25 +0100 | Anarchos | (~Anarchos@91-161-254-16.subs.proxad.net) (Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!) |
| 2026-02-24 00:13:32 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Quit: peterbecich) |
| 2026-02-24 00:18:08 +0100 | <Leary> | geekosaur: I got two of them revised eariler, but now the refined invocation looks like this: <https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/52377ecaa9e9090c7e26b91945f6d587>. I'm not sure I have it in me. <.< |
| 2026-02-24 00:19:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 00:24:00 +0100 | v0id_7 | (~v0id_7@user/v0id-7:62772) (Quit: whatever u sick fcks) |
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| 2026-02-24 00:30:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | mm, maybe the right thing to do in that case is put the correct base bound in the cabal file and maintainer-revision it down on Hackage until the coast is clear |
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| 2026-02-24 04:21:26 +0100 | Logio | (em@kapsi.fi) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 04:21:46 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-02-24 04:25:06 +0100 | <Leary> | Upper bounds aside, `cabal check` doesn't seem to care about lower bounds. Does that mean I can give up on the archaeology necessary to find them? |
| 2026-02-24 04:25:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:27:37 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) |
| 2026-02-24 04:27:49 +0100 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
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| 2026-02-24 04:28:36 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2026-02-24 04:29:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 04:34:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | I usually do. I set my lower bounds to be what I happen to have when I start the project. Then I don't change them until someone wants it changed. |
| 2026-02-24 04:39:28 +0100 | <Leary> | Well, in that case you're setting them conservatively. I was more wondering about the opposite strategy of omitting them entirely. |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:33 +0100 | werneta | (~werneta@71.83.160.242) werneta |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:40 +0100 | xff0x_ | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
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| 2026-02-24 04:44:13 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-02-24 04:44:59 +0100 | xff0x_ | xff0x |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:11 +0100 | <monochrom> | Then one day you will run into something like this recent example: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/breaking-changes-in-time-1-15-ghc-9-14/13711 |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:53 +0100 | <monochrom> | (time-1.15 adds new pattern synonyms that name-clashes with someone's existing code that assumes <=1.14) |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:26 +0100 | APic | (apic@apic.name) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | So if you set a lower bound like <=1.14 or 1.13, the worst that can happen is cabal downloads and builds an appropriate version of time. If you don't set a lower bound, now you have to set a lower bound. |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:38 +0100 | APic | (apic@apic.name) APic |
| 2026-02-24 04:55:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:59:57 +0100 | yahb2 | (~yahb2@user/tomsmeding/bot/yahb2) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:00:19 +0100 | ChanServ | +v yahb2 |
| 2026-02-24 05:00:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:08:53 +0100 | <Leary> | In that particular case, I think the actual issue is importing without concern for namespace pollution. Also, that's an upper bound? |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:15 +0100 | <Leary> | Reflecting things a bit, your point seems to be that an older version of a dependency (than is implicitly assumed) may be used to build the package, causing it to fail. |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:40 +0100 | <Leary> | But the alternative of refusing to build what would have succeeded doesn't really seem better; either way the bound is wrong and you're relying on intrepid explorers to eventually correct it. |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:55 +0100 | arahael | (~wetfoot@user/arahael) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:11:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 05:17:42 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:18:07 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ec |
| 2026-02-24 05:18:18 +0100 | <monochrom> | Oh oops yeah that's an upper bound. |
| 2026-02-24 05:20:06 +0100 | eL_Bart0- | (eL_Bart02@dietunichtguten.org) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:20:33 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:26:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 05:31:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ithis is a long-running argument, and there are no real solutions because you can't reliably infer upper or lower bounds; you or someone else must experiment or actively test |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:46 +0100 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:49 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and leaving either off forces others to do it for you by their tripping over it |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:54 +0100 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) jeso |
| 2026-02-24 05:42:01 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 05:42:51 +0100 | Athas | (athas@2a01:7c8:aaac:1cf:acb7:4f2b:6164:21c9) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 05:43:03 +0100 | Athas | (athas@2a01:7c8:aaac:1cf:10a0:cce8:21cf:53aa) |
| 2026-02-24 05:43:37 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2026-02-24 05:46:46 +0100 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@38.175.72.111) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:47:32 +0100 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@38.175.72.111) doyougnu |
| 2026-02-24 05:49:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:52:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 05:58:16 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:58:48 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2026-02-24 06:07:42 +0100 | defragger | (~random@i5C742DFE.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:08:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 06:19:12 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 06:19:28 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 06:23:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 06:28:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:28:57 +0100 | jtnuttall | (~jeremy@user/jeremyn) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:29:34 +0100 | lol__ | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:4d29:e35:f98e:367a) |
| 2026-02-24 06:34:00 +0100 | lol_ | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:9441:c46b:69b3:7076) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:38:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 06:40:31 +0100 | emaczen | (~user@user/emaczen) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:43:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:50:57 +0100 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
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| 2026-02-24 06:53:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 07:03:04 +0100 | p3n_ | (~p3n@217.198.124.246) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 07:03:34 +0100 | p3n | (~p3n@2a00:19a0:3:7c:0:d9c6:7cf6:1) p3n |
| 2026-02-24 07:05:55 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:09:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:13:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:17:29 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) |
| 2026-02-24 07:24:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:26:09 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 07:26:15 +0100 | Googulator33 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 07:29:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:38:10 +0100 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 07:40:35 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:44:34 +0100 | Googulator33 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 07:44:35 +0100 | Googulator78 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 07:45:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:51:41 +0100 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli) |
| 2026-02-24 07:54:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:59:21 +0100 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:59:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:00:47 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-02-24 08:08:15 +0100 | <gentauro> | adding this to a file works -> `{-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wall -Werror -fpackage-trust #-}`. However, this does not: `{-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wall -Werror -fpackage-trust -trust=base #-}`. |
| 2026-02-24 08:08:39 +0100 | gentauro | error msg: "Unknown flag in {-# OPTIONS_GHC #-} pragma: -trust=base". |
| 2026-02-24 08:09:08 +0100 | <gentauro> | anybody know how to pass trusted packages in the `OPTIONS_GHC` pragma? |
| 2026-02-24 08:10:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:36 +0100 | <gentauro> | there seem to be `GHC` cli flags for that -> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/safe_haskell.html#package-trust |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:51 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:53 +0100 | <gentauro> | however, they don't work with `runghc` :-\ |
| 2026-02-24 08:15:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:20:09 +0100 | <gentauro> | Is there built-in logic in Haskell such as in F# `Enum.GetValues(typeof<tags>)` where you can get a sequence of the values for an (enum) datatype? For example for `data FooBarEnum = Foo | Bar deriving (Eq, Show)`. |
| 2026-02-24 08:20:29 +0100 | gentauro | which would result in [ Foo, Bar ] |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:44 +0100 | <Leary> | @let data FooBarEnum = Foo | Bar deriving (Eq, Show, Enum) |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:46 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:56 +0100 | <Leary> | > [minBound .. maxBound] :: [FooBarEnum] |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:57 +0100 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Bounded FooBarEnum’ |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:57 +0100 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘minBound’ |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:58 +0100 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: minBound |
| 2026-02-24 08:22:24 +0100 | <Leary> | Ah, Forgot to derive `Bounded`. Well, you get the idea. |
| 2026-02-24 08:23:04 +0100 | <Leary> | > [minBound .. maxBound] :: [FooBarEnum] |
| 2026-02-24 08:23:05 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [Foo,Bar] |
| 2026-02-24 08:24:47 +0100 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
| 2026-02-24 08:25:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:27:01 +0100 | <gentauro> | Leary: now that was nifty <3 |
| 2026-02-24 08:27:32 +0100 | <gentauro> | many thx |
| 2026-02-24 08:29:04 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 08:29:48 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:dc79:6396:7e42:d4e3:36f9) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 08:30:20 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) img |
| 2026-02-24 08:30:52 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:36:31 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 08:37:13 +0100 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2026-02-24 08:40:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:44:04 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 08:47:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:52:41 +0100 | jj | (~apropos@node-1w7jr9pqogh9vahu1mvneock5.ipv6.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:55:47 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:56:33 +0100 | jj | (~apropos@node-1w7jr9pqogh9vahu1mvneock5.ipv6.telus.net) omentic |
| 2026-02-24 09:00:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 09:02:09 +0100 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) chele |
| 2026-02-24 09:06:23 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:dc79:6396:7e42:d4e3:36f9) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 09:11:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 09:37:54 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2026-02-24 09:50:43 +0100 | srk | (~sorki@user/srk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 09:51:37 +0100 | emmanuelux | (~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux |
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| 2026-02-24 09:52:36 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 10:06:08 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2026-02-24 10:07:46 +0100 | emmanuelux | (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: bye) |
| 2026-02-24 10:13:07 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
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| 2026-02-24 10:15:47 +0100 | Alex_test_ | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
| 2026-02-24 10:15:54 +0100 | jreicher | (~joelr@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb) |
| 2026-02-24 10:17:33 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:18:24 +0100 | jreicher | (~joelr@user/jreicher) jreicher |
| 2026-02-24 10:20:15 +0100 | Alex_test_ | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:25:44 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
| 2026-02-24 10:27:08 +0100 | sp1ff | (~user@2601:1c2:4701:7850::8cd) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:27 +0100 | <dminuoso> | % :t minBound |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:27 +0100 | <yahb2> | minBound :: Bounded a => a |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:58 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Curious, why is Ord not a superclass of Bounded? |
| 2026-02-24 10:32:19 +0100 | <dminuoso> | What does `minimum/maximum` even mean in the absence of an ordering? |
| 2026-02-24 10:32:50 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 10:33:40 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps it makes sense that an Enum has a first and a last value for enumeration, but while it has an ordering compatible with that Enum instance, that ordering makes no semantical sense and is hence not defined? |
| 2026-02-24 10:33:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | but then you could argue that you should give that Ord instance anyway |
| 2026-02-24 10:34:47 +0100 | <humasect> | it says right in the first sentence https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/base-4.22.0.0/docs/Data-Bounded.html |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:05 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | lol, dminuoso ^ |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:24 +0100 | tomsmeding | should have thought of that |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:32 +0100 | <dminuoso> | humasect: Yes, and its not much of an explanation. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:43 +0100 | <dminuoso> | It reads nonsensical to me. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:48 +0100 | <humasect> | perhaps look into its meaning, disassemble it to understanding |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:50 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: not every ordering is total |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:54 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Oh. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:54 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | partial orders are a thing |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:55 +0100 | <humasect> | how to learn ? |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:09 +0100 | sp1ff | (~user@c-24-20-218-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) sp1ff |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:22 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Is there a notion of `minimum` in a partially ordered set, then? |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:30 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Im not even sure what that would mean. |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:32 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: But Bounded doesn't deal with just any partial order. |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:43 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: yes, a lower bound :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(order) |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:44 +0100 | <__monty__> | It's restricted to partial orders that have a single lower and upper bound. |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:15 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | sure, but even those need not have a total ordering |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps "lower bound" is not the technically correct term here |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (but then, it's probably "minimum", which would not have helped dminuoso) |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:17 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: all subset of a given set S are partially ordered by inclusion, and they have a unique minimum ({}) and maximum (S), but they are not totally ordered |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:47 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Okay so what you're saying is that Bounded is just synonmous for Lattice? |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps? |
| 2026-02-24 10:39:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | well, a bounded lattice |
| 2026-02-24 10:39:46 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Aren't all lattices bounded by their suprema? |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:04 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Ohh wait. |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | I see. |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | according to the wikipedia definition that I'm currently reading, a plain "lattice" requires joins and meets of _two_ elements |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:10 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | and thus finite sets |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | a _complete lattice_ additionally requires suprema and infima of larger sets |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | thus all complete lattices are bounded, but not all bounded lattices are complete? Perhaps? |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:55 +0100 | dminuoso | wonders why lattices are called lattices |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:19 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | because of this picture I always assumed https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pow3nonlattice.svg |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:39 +0100 | <jreicher> | dminuoso: hasse diagrams |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:51 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:06 +0100 | <jreicher> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasse_diagram |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:21 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | which that picture is an example of |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:40 +0100 | <Leary> | It's a bounded partial order with minimal and maximal elements---that doesn't imply unique suprema or infima. |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:51 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 10:43:09 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | fair! Even pairs need not have unique joins or meets |
| 2026-02-24 10:43:48 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Are you saying that Bounded does not have uniqueness requirements? |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: even if there is a maximal element of the entire set, that does not necessarily mean there is a _unique_ smallest upper bound of any subset of the set |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:31 +0100 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: I think they're talking about lattices. |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:33 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | "lattice" implies that such upper bounds (and lower bounds) are unique |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:57 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | so Bounded is not a "bounded lattice", it's a "partial order with minimal and maximal elements" |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | which... we knew 10 minutes ago already |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:08 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Trying to understand what "maximal element of the entire set" would mean, if it was not a unique smallest supremum of any subset of the set. |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:20 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | welcome to math where there are unintuitive counterexamples |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:27 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Oh hold on. |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:35 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The favourite person in a group could work I suppose. |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:10 +0100 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: clopen is my favourite |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:44 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Hold on what I just said makes no sense. |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:52 +0100 | <jreicher> | dminuoso: are you wondering what the difference between lattice and having max and min is? |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The uniqueness is not of any subset, but a *pair* of elements. |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:11 +0100 | <jreicher> | Yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:18 +0100 | <jreicher> | (But I'm still not sure what the initial question was) |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:24 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (which are, in particular, subsets) |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:29 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | jreicher: I think yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:46 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | do you have an example of a bounded partial order that is not a lattice? |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:51 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-0.open.aalto.fi) fp |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't) |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:02 +0100 | <Leary> | dminuoso: Maximal means nothing else is bigger than it, though perhaps the /greatest/ element is a better notion for a bound, in which case its bigger than everything. |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:22 +0100 | <int-e> | I'm confused; Bounded just defined two points called minBound and maxBound? So it would work for partial orders too (and thus, lattices) |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:44 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: the original original question was why Bounded does not have Ord as a superclass, which had answer "partial orders are a thing" |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:45 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: You can just contrive a small finite partial order on paper. |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:58 +0100 | <Leary> | It's not hard to make a counterexample. |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:03 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: Ah. I see, lack of context strikes again. |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:08 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: then we thought "but is Bounded then a bounded lattice?", to which the answer is no, as no unique joins/meets are required |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | now we want an example of that :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:54 +0100 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: by "bounded" do we just mean the entire set (rather than any pair) as an infimum and supremum? |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:59 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:02 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | or at least, I do |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:11 +0100 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: If you're looking for any example of it whatsoever I think the one tomsmeding mentioned is the easiest. Take any set with more than one element and all subsets of that set, the partial order relation is subset-of, the minBound would be the empty set, the maxBound the set you started with, some pairs of subsets won't satisfy the subset-of relation in either order. So this can implement Bounded |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:17 +0100 | <__monty__> | but not Ord. |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:30 +0100 | <jreicher> | Then just "duplicate" a meet or join. It will no longer be a lattice. |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:48 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: yes, we figured that out, but we're already at the next question: that thing is clearly a lattice, but we want a not-lattice that is nevertheless a bounded partial order |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:04 +0100 | <int-e> | Is it okay if it's? 0 < 1,2 < 3,4 < 5 has minimal and maximal elements but 3,4 have no infimum and 1,2 have no supremum |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:29 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | but there's no unique maximum |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:30 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: The conversation has moved on but I'm not sure it's not leaving dminuoso behind ; ) |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:42 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | ah :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:43 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: 5 is the unique maximal element here |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:47 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/c52be6739f5815d13a6774d46dcbde75 |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: no, because 2 !< 5 |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:00 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: it's transitive |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | oh notation |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:14 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes perfect |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:36 +0100 | <jreicher> | I think int-e and I are thinking the same. 0 is one end and 5 is the other. The join of 1 and 2 is not unique |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:37 +0100 | tomsmeding | closes the image editor |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:41 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: sorry, I'm trying to cast a Hesse diagram in ASCII here |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:51 +0100 | <int-e> | the translation is a bit lossy ;) |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:55 +0100 | <jreicher> | int-e: have I understood you correctly? |
| 2026-02-24 10:53:18 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: that notation in your gist is a bit ambiguous, what do the /\ on line 4 mean :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:53:19 +0100 | <int-e> | Hasse diagram, meh. |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:13 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Did you mean it like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ayvscggm ? |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:34 +0100 | <__monty__> | I'm also interested in kind of the reverse question, are there structures that can implement Ord but not Bounded? Something like a cyclical ordering? I suppose only if we put the "laws" of the class aside. |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:43 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Or well, maybe without that x even |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:51 +0100 | <merijn> | __monty__: Clearly we need a PartialOrd superclass of Ord that implement "a -> a -> Maybe Ordering" |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:53 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Not sure if it makes it less or more ambiguous |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: the x must be a crossing of lines without a node, yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:55:11 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: Integer? |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:14 +0100 | <jreicher> | __monty__: if the order is transitive and antisymmetric it can't be cyclical |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:24 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: Cross connections. Bit hard in slapdash asci. I revised it with an X if that's clearer. |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:52 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes, which is also what dminuoso made of it |
| 2026-02-24 10:57:21 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: Oh, obviously, darn, less interesting than I thought. |
| 2026-02-24 10:59:28 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: here is what it looks like properly: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hapo.png |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:03 +0100 | <__monty__> | TIL, min and max can return a value that is distinct from their arguments, as long as it is == to one of their arguments. |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:25 +0100 | <__monty__> | I assume that's for some sort of canonicalization? |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:58 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: yes |
| 2026-02-24 11:02:13 +0100 | <Leary> | __monty__: `==` values aren't supposed to be distinguishable in the first place. |
| 2026-02-24 11:02:35 +0100 | tomsmeding | has a meeting -> afk |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:00 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:16 +0100 | <__monty__> | Leary: But things like Arg exist and they exist because they are useful, I assume. |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:35 +0100 | morj | (~morj@user/morj) morj |
| 2026-02-24 11:11:25 +0100 | <Leary> | It's occasionally pragmatic to break the law, yes. `Arg` actually wouldn't be useful if people always remembered to write `fooBy` instead of just `foo :: Ord a => ...`. |
| 2026-02-24 11:11:52 +0100 | <Leary> | At least, not useful enough to justify its existence. |
| 2026-02-24 11:13:02 +0100 | petrichor | (~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor |
| 2026-02-24 11:13:29 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-02-24 11:16:01 +0100 | morj_away | (~morj@user/morj) morj |
| 2026-02-24 11:16:37 +0100 | morj | (~morj@user/morj) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 11:17:10 +0100 | <int-e> | `fooBy` is awful when you have data structures with invariants (consider an implementation of containers that implements Data.Map using Data.Set with `Arg k v` elements) |
| 2026-02-24 11:18:20 +0100 | <int-e> | (So it's not just programmer laziness.) |
| 2026-02-24 11:20:38 +0100 | morj_away | (~morj@user/morj) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-02-24 11:20:56 +0100 | int-e | ponders extending this argument to saying that type classes are useles; people could just pass around the right operations explicitly. :-P |
| 2026-02-24 11:21:57 +0100 | <Leary> | Even in such a case, `Arg` should be handrolled in the guts of containers, not exposed from base. |
| 2026-02-24 11:23:43 +0100 | <Leary> | Re the extended argument, it's really about typeclasses with laws being used to implement operations that /don't require/ those laws and are useful in their absence; the typeclass method merely being a default choice. |
| 2026-02-24 11:26:50 +0100 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 11:27:05 +0100 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir |
| 2026-02-24 11:29:22 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 11:31:16 +0100 | hsw | (~hsw@106.104.102.45) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 11:32:21 +0100 | hsw | (~hsw@106.104.102.45) hsw |
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| 2026-02-24 11:53:35 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 11:57:55 +0100 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 2026-02-24 11:59:31 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 12:07:22 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1) |
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| 2026-02-24 12:12:42 +0100 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2026-02-24 12:14:03 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-0.open.aalto.fi) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 12:14:06 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
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| 2026-02-24 12:17:08 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
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| 2026-02-24 12:17:52 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 12:19:33 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) infinity0 |
| 2026-02-24 12:19:40 +0100 | terrorjack | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:271:2d98::2) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2026-02-24 12:26:37 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 12:34:05 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.214) fp |
| 2026-02-24 12:36:53 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 12:38:45 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 12:40:22 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) pyon |
| 2026-02-24 12:47:32 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-02-24 12:52:54 +0100 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
| 2026-02-24 12:54:53 +0100 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: have you road the functional pearl from Alejandro Russo on how to use `lattices` to secure apps? |
| 2026-02-24 12:54:58 +0100 | <gentauro> | it's a pretty good one !!! |
| 2026-02-24 12:55:50 +0100 | gentauro | I actually live coded an implementation for a Spanish audience (HackMadrid / HaskellMAD). Nobody understood anything xD |
| 2026-02-24 12:58:10 +0100 | gentauro | for Spanish speaking peeps -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU5dfVRREUo&t=7806s (02:10:06 - 03:11:59) |
| 2026-02-24 13:02:13 +0100 | gentauro | merijn and tomsmeding perhaps that talk will provide "some" endorsment for Hackage? xD |
| 2026-02-24 13:08:01 +0100 | smalltalkman | (uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) smalltalkman |
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| 2026-02-24 13:08:53 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen |
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| 2026-02-24 14:38:33 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.214) fp |
| 2026-02-24 14:41:18 +0100 | Alex_test_ | Alex_delenda_est |
| 2026-02-24 14:43:32 +0100 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.163.162) |
| 2026-02-24 14:43:53 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) ep1ctetus |
| 2026-02-24 14:44:24 +0100 | troydm | (~troydm@user/troydm) troydm |
| 2026-02-24 14:44:54 +0100 | chenjf | (~chenjf@68.64.178.54) |
| 2026-02-24 14:50:20 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 2026-02-24 14:51:04 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) ep1ctetus |
| 2026-02-24 14:56:00 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod |
| 2026-02-24 15:01:45 +0100 | castan | (~castan@2a02:2f0f:8210:d800:f4b5:9670:6ef1:55e) |
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| 2026-02-24 15:04:58 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: I'm pretty sure I have not read that pearl |
| 2026-02-24 15:05:34 +0100 | Googulator78 | Googulator |
| 2026-02-24 15:07:32 +0100 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) philopsos |
| 2026-02-24 15:20:00 +0100 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Read error: error:0A000139:SSL routines::record layer failure) |
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| 2026-02-24 15:35:13 +0100 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) philopsos |
| 2026-02-24 15:40:43 +0100 | comerijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 15:43:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
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| 2026-02-24 15:49:56 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish |
| 2026-02-24 15:52:25 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7955:9591:6018:7ef9) |
| 2026-02-24 15:59:10 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Quit: CiaoSen) |
| 2026-02-24 16:02:08 +0100 | rekahsoft | (~rekahsoft@bras-base-orllon1103w-grc-20-76-67-111-168.dsl.bell.ca) rekahsoft |
| 2026-02-24 16:03:53 +0100 | GdeVolpiano | (~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano |
| 2026-02-24 16:04:33 +0100 | GdeVolpi1 | (~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 16:06:38 +0100 | Taneb | (~username@host-87-11-133-28.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 16:15:17 +0100 | chenjf | (~chenjf@68.64.178.54) |
| 2026-02-24 16:16:04 +0100 | jtnuttall | (~jeremy@user/jeremyn) jeremyn |
| 2026-02-24 16:17:08 +0100 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: let me see if I can find it (Chalmers moved their stuff when they made the new website) |
| 2026-02-24 16:18:18 +0100 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: there you go -> https://www.cse.chalmers.se/~russo/publications_files/pearl-russo.pdf |
| 2026-02-24 16:20:35 +0100 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@186.22.19.214) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 16:20:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | thanks, will have a look :) |
| 2026-02-24 16:20:47 +0100 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@186.22.19.214) rainbyte |
| 2026-02-24 16:22:05 +0100 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: there is also the ICFP 2015 Vancouver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Uf61U0fvo (but it's recorded with a toaster …) :-\ |
| 2026-02-24 16:22:42 +0100 | gentauro | less than 19 min, if you ears can handle the toaster A/V |
| 2026-02-24 16:24:14 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.214) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 16:30:50 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7955:9591:6018:7ef9) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2026-02-24 16:31:30 +0100 | comerijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 16:33:06 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 16:40:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 16:40:17 +0100 | emaczen | (~user@user/emaczen) emaczen |
| 2026-02-24 16:44:41 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 16:46:48 +0100 | chenjf | (~chenjf@68.64.178.54) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 16:52:51 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen |
| 2026-02-24 16:52:55 +0100 | traxex | (traxex@user/traxex) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 16:54:40 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Client Quit) |
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| 2026-02-24 17:45:06 +0100 | jmcantrell_ | jmcantrell |
| 2026-02-24 17:48:19 +0100 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 17:48:33 +0100 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 17:52:59 +0100 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2026-02-24 17:54:20 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7955:9591:6018:7ef9) |
| 2026-02-24 18:00:55 +0100 | Milan_Vanca | (~milan@user/Milan-Vanca:32634) Milan_Vanca |
| 2026-02-24 18:00:59 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) |
| 2026-02-24 18:02:14 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) ep1ctetus |
| 2026-02-24 18:04:12 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Hello guyz.. Stupid quesiton incoming! We can nicely nest "case of" fn a b c = case a of.. case b of... Lovely but sadly I can't pattern match and need guards. Which I don't know how to nest. I don't want to duplicate e1 && e2 && e3 when only e4 changes. |
| 2026-02-24 18:05:29 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2026-02-24 18:09:39 +0100 | <ncf> | guards don't do anything that let and case can't |
| 2026-02-24 18:10:10 +0100 | <ncf> | if you really want a RHS equivalent of guards there is MultiWayIf https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/multiway_if.html |
| 2026-02-24 18:18:56 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | So is there other way how to rewrite this more nicely? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NokCDmVI |
| 2026-02-24 18:20:48 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Imagine I want to have another otherwise with under counter path. |
| 2026-02-24 18:20:50 +0100 | petrichor | (~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor |
| 2026-02-24 18:21:07 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | I probably need whole new function for it |
| 2026-02-24 18:23:45 +0100 | bggd_ | (~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:ad7c:fa54:e40d:9544) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 18:24:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 18:25:36 +0100 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2026-02-24 18:26:42 +0100 | cipherrot | (~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor |
| 2026-02-24 18:27:24 +0100 | petrichor | (~jez@user/petrichor) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 18:32:27 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | I think I can do this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FfemQcpX but this case of is ugly? |
| 2026-02-24 18:32:45 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: brb) |
| 2026-02-24 18:33:10 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) pyon |
| 2026-02-24 18:34:55 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 18:35:44 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 18:36:14 +0100 | <ncf> | i don't see a reason not to use an if statement there |
| 2026-02-24 18:36:23 +0100 | <ncf> | well, an if expression |
| 2026-02-24 18:37:29 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | What about now? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ptnApMeq |
| 2026-02-24 18:38:28 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Like I can do it with if but it does not look like nicer solution. |
| 2026-02-24 18:39:13 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | If I had only 2 then I would use an if expression which is perfect solution for that case |
| 2026-02-24 18:40:27 +0100 | <ncf> | i mean that's fine, if you have a lot of those you might want to define a list or a map like [(methodGet, counterGet), (methodPut, counterPut), ...] and then do a lookup into that |
| 2026-02-24 18:42:16 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Hmm map with lookup sounds interesting too. |
| 2026-02-24 18:45:34 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5431:6cb2:b646:a30f:510c:87ce) wickedjargon |
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| 2026-02-24 18:56:45 +0100 | cipherrot | (~jez@user/petrichor) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 18:58:21 +0100 | petrichor | (~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor |
| 2026-02-24 19:04:02 +0100 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 19:05:29 +0100 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths |
| 2026-02-24 19:08:45 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> Milan_Vanca: not sure if it applies to your situation but you can do deep nesting in the pattern too, so if you just want to look deeper in a nested structure you can fold nested "case" into a single case. |
| 2026-02-24 19:11:34 +0100 | glguy | (glguy@libera/staff/glguy) (*.net *.split) |
| 2026-02-24 19:11:39 +0100 | glguy | (glguy@libera/staff/glguy) glguy |
| 2026-02-24 19:13:03 +0100 | traxex | (traxex@user/traxex) traxex |
| 2026-02-24 19:15:19 +0100 | rainbyte | (~rainbyte@186.22.19.214) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 19:15:23 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | loonycyborg: Do you mean something like (v1, (Just v2), _) ? |
| 2026-02-24 19:15:28 +0100 | rainbyte_ | (~rainbyte@186.22.19.214) rainbyte |
| 2026-02-24 19:15:45 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <loonycyborg> yep |
| 2026-02-24 19:18:04 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Yeah :) This is nice.. and If I wanted to modify v2 I could use lenses for that. Is that correct? |
| 2026-02-24 19:18:41 +0100 | <EvanR> | that is one way |
| 2026-02-24 19:20:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | you can also write an update function f g (v1, Just x, v3) = (v1, Just (g x), v3) |
| 2026-02-24 19:21:39 +0100 | <Milan_Vanca> | Little more verbose but one does not need another lib. |
| 2026-02-24 19:21:40 +0100 | <EvanR> | for a one off case, this takes a lot less support |
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| 2026-02-24 22:04:04 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 22:04:18 +0100 | <lantti> | is there a faster way to print a list of Int, separated by spaces, than "putStrLn (unwords $ map show ints)"? |
| 2026-02-24 22:05:14 +0100 | <Rembane> | lantti: Faster as in time from first character to last character? |
| 2026-02-24 22:05:27 +0100 | <Rembane> | ...minimizing that time that is |
| 2026-02-24 22:05:31 +0100 | <lantti> | yes |
| 2026-02-24 22:06:06 +0100 | <Rembane> | Converting it to a chunked bytestring could be faster, but I haven't compared. |
| 2026-02-24 22:06:34 +0100 | aka_dude | (~aka_dude@192.71.166.120) |
| 2026-02-24 22:06:39 +0100 | <lantti> | I'm doing an algorithms course where I have to choice to do it in C, Rust or Haskell and I chose Haskell, but in my current task just printing the result takes me to the limit on acceptable time use |
| 2026-02-24 22:06:49 +0100 | <newmind> | depending on the length of ints, maybe with a builder, but i doubt for any reasonable length outputs there is that much difference to be had here |
| 2026-02-24 22:07:33 +0100 | aka_dude | (~aka_dude@192.71.166.120) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-02-24 22:07:38 +0100 | <dolio> | You could try `mapM_` with something. But I'd be surprised if it were a lot faster. |
| 2026-02-24 22:07:44 +0100 | <newmind> | so, since haskell is a lazy language... how are you calculating ints? |
| 2026-02-24 22:07:45 +0100 | <lantti> | although on a positive note, I did pass already. I'm just trying to improve my result from barely passing to something better |
| 2026-02-24 22:07:54 +0100 | <Rembane> | lantti: How many ints do you print? |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:08 +0100 | <lantti> | 10^6 |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:20 +0100 | <mauke> | :t shows |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:22 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Show a => a -> ShowS |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:52 +0100 | <EvanR> | :t mapM_ print |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:53 +0100 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Show a) => t a -> IO () |
| 2026-02-24 22:08:59 +0100 | <mauke> | that's not space separated |
| 2026-02-24 22:09:18 +0100 | <dolio> | Yeah, you need the space analogue of print. |
| 2026-02-24 22:09:28 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | lantti: are you allowed to use dependencies, like 'text' or 'bytestring'? |
| 2026-02-24 22:09:59 +0100 | <dolio> | Is there a show-to-text/bytestring that doesn't run through show? |
| 2026-02-24 22:10:17 +0100 | <dolio> | Other than the one I stopped maintaining like 10 years ago? |
| 2026-02-24 22:10:48 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | well, for a start I'd be curious how `T.putStrLn (T.intercalate " " (map T.show ints))` performs, despite still using Prelude.show |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:00 +0100 | <mauke> | :t let f [] = "\n"; f (x : xs) = shows x (' ' : f xs) in f |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:03 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Show a => [a] -> [Char] |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:13 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dolio: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/text-2.1.4/docs/Data-Text-Lazy-Builder-Int.html ? |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:34 +0100 | <dolio> | Oh, nice. |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:48 +0100 | <mauke> | > let f [] = "\n"; f (x : xs) = shows x (' ' : f xs) in f [1,2,3] |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:49 +0100 | <lambdabot> | "1 2 3 \n" |
| 2026-02-24 22:11:51 +0100 | <dolio> | Also, is printing actually the bottleneck? |
| 2026-02-24 22:12:13 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 22:12:24 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | right, possibly laziness makes it look like it is, even if it actually isn't |
| 2026-02-24 22:12:36 +0100 | <EvanR> | isn't builder in appropriate here since we already have a lazy list of the things to print, in order |
| 2026-02-24 22:12:45 +0100 | <EvanR> | just print them in order |
| 2026-02-24 22:12:51 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | well, putStrLn takes an MVar on stdout |
| 2026-02-24 22:13:04 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | taking an MVar for outputting like 5 bytes may not be optimal |
| 2026-02-24 22:13:16 +0100 | <EvanR> | facepalm |
| 2026-02-24 22:13:29 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | writing everything in a big buffer and then sending that buffer into stdout may be quite a bit faster |
| 2026-02-24 22:13:41 +0100 | <EvanR> | this sounds so backwards |
| 2026-02-24 22:13:58 +0100 | <EvanR> | kind of like buffering your own buffer before it gets to the OS buffers, which are then buffered |
| 2026-02-24 22:14:09 +0100 | <lantti> | I'm currently trying to figure out how the profiling works, so I can get a better idea of the bottlenecks |
| 2026-02-24 22:14:20 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: output is already buffered, the actual write(2) call in the kernel is only called when stdout is flushed, which, if you don't write newlines, happens only every 4096 bytes or so |
| 2026-02-24 22:14:47 +0100 | <dolio> | It's already effectively building a 'buffer' as a lazy list of characters. Builder is just generally a better one. |
| 2026-02-24 22:15:08 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: also, a Text Builder produces a _lazy_ text, so that doesn't actually create a whole separate buffering step |
| 2026-02-24 22:15:33 +0100 | <dolio> | I think you can directly put a builder, too. |
| 2026-02-24 22:15:35 +0100 | <EvanR> | a lazy text itself is already a lazy list |
| 2026-02-24 22:15:35 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | or, well, it does, but then it (kind of) synchronises with the one in the RTS so they kinda merge |
| 2026-02-24 22:15:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | then a builder to make a straight lazy list is not helping |
| 2026-02-24 22:16:31 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dolio: doesn't seem like you can, but toLazyText should be fine |
| 2026-02-24 22:16:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 22:16:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | builder is often recommended in case people are trying to form a big sequence from pieces other than just tacking onto the end |
| 2026-02-24 22:16:54 +0100 | <dolio> | Oh. I guess it's just bytestring builders. |
| 2026-02-24 22:17:10 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: which i why I recommended `T.intercalate` first |
| 2026-02-24 22:17:20 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | but that doesn't have the nice Int serialiser |
| 2026-02-24 22:17:41 +0100 | <newmind> | lantti: what's the actual time you're getting? just to see how reasonable it is |
| 2026-02-24 22:18:02 +0100 | aka_dude | (~aka_dude@2a03:f80:30:f490::1) |
| 2026-02-24 22:18:19 +0100 | morj_away | (~morj@user/morj) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-02-24 22:19:01 +0100 | aka_dude | (~aka_dude@2a03:f80:30:f490::1) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 22:19:21 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | further tip: benchmark your code but setting `ints = replicate 100000 123456789` or something, just to double-check it's actually the printing that's slow, not the computation preceding it |
| 2026-02-24 22:20:01 +0100 | <newmind> | that was my second suggestion, replacing ints with [1..100000] or something |
| 2026-02-24 22:20:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | .oO( replace the printing with just evaluating the ints in sequence ) |
| 2026-02-24 22:20:42 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | that's the dual version :p |
| 2026-02-24 22:23:22 +0100 | <mauke> | :t mapM_ evaluate |
| 2026-02-24 22:23:24 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t b -> IO () |
| 2026-02-24 22:24:47 +0100 | <EvanR> | hopefully evaluate doesn't first take an MVar before evaluating xD |
| 2026-02-24 22:25:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | requiring us to do artifically additional buffering wtf |
| 2026-02-24 22:25:35 +0100 | <lantti> | I can't figure out the profiling under stack right now, but unix time command for the 10000000 Ints case gives 0.8s |
| 2026-02-24 22:25:39 +0100 | cbarrett | (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 22:25:51 +0100 | cbarrett | (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com) cbarrett |
| 2026-02-24 22:25:54 +0100 | <EvanR> | 10^7 ints |
| 2026-02-24 22:26:07 +0100 | <lantti> | oops, 1000000 |
| 2026-02-24 22:26:32 +0100 | <EvanR> | are they particularly uniform ints or like up to 3 digits or |
| 2026-02-24 22:27:17 +0100 | <lantti> | the whole task is that one: https://cses.fi/alon/task/1092/ |
| 2026-02-24 22:27:55 +0100 | <lantti> | so basically two runs of consecutive ints with one exception |
| 2026-02-24 22:28:09 +0100 | <lantti> | in each run |
