2024/09/17

2024-09-17 00:01:09 +0200athan_(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-17 00:03:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:03:54 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-09-17 00:07:43 +0200ZharMeny`ZharMeny
2024-09-17 00:10:59 +0200hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:11:34 +0200 <geekosaur> tbh if performance matters to me I don't use Haskell. that said, the stuff I do these days mostly doesn't need to squeeze performance
2024-09-17 00:11:47 +0200 <geekosaur> (this is a "right tool for the job" thing)
2024-09-17 00:13:00 +0200 <d34df00d> Well, that's my favourite pastime — trying to understand haskell + performance and maybe make the code slightly better.
2024-09-17 00:14:06 +0200 <geekosaur> in general, the higher level or otherwise more abstracted from the hardware a language is, the harder it is to reason about or get performance
2024-09-17 00:14:40 +0200 <geekosaur> the flip side being that the closer to the HW it is, the harder it is to write in the first place
2024-09-17 00:14:50 +0200 <geekosaur> so it's a balancing act
2024-09-17 00:15:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 00:20:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:20:15 +0200lambdaRule(~lambdaRul@d108-172-198-192.bchsia.telus.net)
2024-09-17 00:20:38 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb571c92fe2f1c989eb0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:23:05 +0200 <geekosaur> Haskell and Python make it easy to write what you intend (admittedly, in somewhat different styles), but performance issues are really hard
2024-09-17 00:23:13 +0200 <geekosaur> asm's a nightmare to write
2024-09-17 00:23:33 +0200 <lambdaRule> I'm reading QuickCheck code, the module Poly makes me wonder how those newtype (A,B,C) suppose to be used. (https://github.com/nick8325/quickcheck/blob/d66336ce59e0e3536afcef4f2e147b7028d89dd0/src/Test/Quic…) Anyone knows how?
2024-09-17 00:23:49 +0200 <geekosaur> C makes you do everything yourself and mostly makes it really easy to shoot yourself in the foot, but performance is easy to reason about
2024-09-17 00:24:27 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-17 00:24:47 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:593a:1997:8b5e:410b)
2024-09-17 00:26:33 +0200 <geekosaur> lambdaRule, I believe the point here is that if you have Integers with e.g. different ranges or other constraints, you can either wrap them and derive-through things like Eq yourself, or you can use the predefined A,B,C etc.
2024-09-17 00:27:37 +0200 <geekosaur> (which is in part a hackaround for Haskell not having subtyping)
2024-09-17 00:28:15 +0200 <geekosaur> a third alternative may be to use Liquid Haskell instead, since it has subtyping
2024-09-17 00:30:28 +0200 <geekosaur> for examples, consider that you have ages and number-of-days represented as integers. for testing purposes you might use A for the former and B for the latter. that said, if you have enough of them you may want to do it properly with your own newtype wrappers Age and Day so you can more easily keep straight what represents what
2024-09-17 00:30:41 +0200Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:31:59 +0200 <EvanR> C performance is easy to reason about?! It regularly outperforms my mental model by orders of magnitude xD
2024-09-17 00:32:07 +0200 <EvanR> it's way too fast
2024-09-17 00:32:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 00:32:40 +0200 <geekosaur> lambdarule, anyway, given the stuff they provide for it, that's what it looks like to me
2024-09-17 00:32:46 +0200 <lambdaRule> I have two more questions: 1. A,B,C have same code except their type name, why are they written like that? 2. The header comment of Poly said these data types are used for testing polymorphic properties, how these newtypes would be used differently than simply choose Int to generate data for a poly type?
2024-09-17 00:33:10 +0200 <lambdaRule> --still reading your answers
2024-09-17 00:33:15 +0200 <geekosaur> I am unclear on their use of "polymorphic"
2024-09-17 00:33:24 +0200 <geekosaur> the rest, well, finish reading first
2024-09-17 00:34:15 +0200 <geekosaur> the whole point of `newtype` is that it gives a new name and distinct "identity" to an existing type, so you can treat them differently even though (in this case) they're all "just integers"
2024-09-17 00:34:39 +0200 <geekosaur> for example, adding two ages together doesn't make sense, but ages are integers
2024-09-17 00:35:21 +0200 <EvanR> the candidates collectively have 250 years among them
2024-09-17 00:35:54 +0200 <EvanR> just kidding
2024-09-17 00:36:07 +0200 <monochrom> Computing averages of ages requires adding them. >:)
2024-09-17 00:36:10 +0200 <geekosaur> but act like they have 15
2024-09-17 00:36:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:36:59 +0200 <monochrom> And yeah also when we say "the two of you have total age 200 why are you still childish"
2024-09-17 00:38:13 +0200 <monochrom> Haha, computing geometric means of ages requires multiplying them, too. >:D
2024-09-17 00:38:30 +0200 <monochrom> And standard deviations etc
2024-09-17 00:38:54 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, there are exceptions. but in general adding two ages together is a mistake and you want some kind of override operation which by existence says "something special is happening here" / makes you think about whether you're doing something sensible with it
2024-09-17 00:39:08 +0200 <geekosaur> this is the point of `newtype`
2024-09-17 00:39:17 +0200 <monochrom> "How to break typeclass laws with statistics"
2024-09-17 00:39:55 +0200 <geekosaur> but, for simple apps you may skip the newtype, but then you need to test them and use different properties as part of it, so you have the convenience newtypes A,B,C,ordA,ordB,ordC
2024-09-17 00:40:29 +0200 <geekosaur> (the latter being things you can add together but not add unwrapped numbers to without unwrapping them or wrapping the unwrapped number, for example)
2024-09-17 00:40:50 +0200 <monochrom> But more seriously:
2024-09-17 00:40:53 +0200 <geekosaur> this is kinda half-assed type safety for quick and dirty apps
2024-09-17 00:42:09 +0200 <monochrom> PHP has a type for time. Initially, they had a default value for time too. Then there was an outcry, even among PHP people, because no default value can ever make sense for time.
2024-09-17 00:42:33 +0200 <geekosaur> (my own take on which being, if you've reached the point where you're doing property-based testing, you've reached the point where you should do it right up front)
2024-09-17 00:42:55 +0200Guest|84(~Guest|84@178.60.115.105)
2024-09-17 00:43:18 +0200Guest|84(~Guest|84@178.60.115.105) (Client Quit)
2024-09-17 00:43:41 +0200 <monochrom> There was a poorly written basic math textbook that went "old temperature was 100F, new temperature is 120F, what's the percentage increase?" which makes no sense because 0F is also an arbitrary reference point.
2024-09-17 00:45:21 +0200 <geekosaur> and, like time, there's no reasonable reference point for temperature
2024-09-17 00:45:43 +0200 <geekosaur> (in the classical days there was, but then came quantum temperature and ruined it for everyone)
2024-09-17 00:46:41 +0200spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c) (Quit: spew)
2024-09-17 00:46:45 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:593a:1997:8b5e:410b) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:47:01 +0200spew(~spew@2806:2a0:1522:8662::728c)
2024-09-17 00:47:04 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d)
2024-09-17 00:47:45 +0200 <monochrom> Using 0K as the reference point, and in the context of thermodynamics, "percentage increase" can be a useful notion.
2024-09-17 00:47:55 +0200 <geekosaur> again, only classically
2024-09-17 00:48:22 +0200 <geekosaur> (granting, at the moment if you're talking thermodynamics then you're talking classical physics)
2024-09-17 00:48:24 +0200 <monochrom> But that textbook was for paramedics, and trying poorly to make a word problem that uses paramedic vocabulary.
2024-09-17 00:49:37 +0200 <monochrom> A lot of word problems are really poorly contrived.
2024-09-17 00:50:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 00:50:56 +0200 <EvanR> points in space or points in time are intangible, we juggle vectors and matrices all day that represents the moves between them
2024-09-17 00:51:16 +0200 <geekosaur> (damn you, Einstein)
2024-09-17 00:51:31 +0200 <EvanR> there's no rubick's cube only rubick's cube group
2024-09-17 00:52:17 +0200 <EvanR> rubik's cube?!
2024-09-17 00:52:24 +0200 <geekosaur> (and Einstein's not through with us even yet. the latest is evidence that gravity can be repulsive)
2024-09-17 00:53:02 +0200EvanRfires up the gravity capacitor and flies away
2024-09-17 00:53:40 +0200 <geekosaur> won't work here; we're definitely positive compared to the average density of the universe
2024-09-17 00:54:27 +0200 <geekosaur> the trick is the GR transformation matrix (Hamiltonian, I think?) depends on the average density of the universe.
2024-09-17 00:54:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 00:55:08 +0200 <geekosaur> in Einstein's day and for decades afterward, that was considered to be 0 because the universe is mostly empty space.
2024-09-17 00:55:39 +0200lambdaRule(~lambdaRul@d108-172-198-192.bchsia.telus.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-09-17 00:55:47 +0200 <geekosaur> but within the past ~10 years, we've found there's a lot of mass-energy in places we thought were completely empty. which means the average mass-density is positive.
2024-09-17 00:56:36 +0200 <geekosaur> which means any local region where the mass-energy density is less than the average, the transformation matrix is negative: gravity is repulsive
2024-09-17 00:56:54 +0200EvanReyes this story with suspicion
2024-09-17 00:57:25 +0200 <EvanR> the maximally negatively curved milne universe is still pretty cool ngl
2024-09-17 00:58:33 +0200troojg(~troojg@user/troojg)
2024-09-17 01:03:39 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
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2024-09-17 01:04:27 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2607:fb91:8a4:82b7:ad3:f757:ccf9:424d) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 01:08:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 01:11:06 +0200 <geekosaur> we are known to be in a "cosmic void" (https://www.space.com/hubble-tension-universe-expansion-supervoid)
2024-09-17 01:11:55 +0200 <geekosaur> the question is, is it so void that its mass-energy density is below the universe's average? if it is, then galaxies within the void are being pushed apart
2024-09-17 01:13:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-17 01:19:49 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-17 01:20:44 +0200 <geekosaur> this has a somewhat more formal description plus a link to a paper
2024-09-17 01:20:46 +0200 <geekosaur> https://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/article.php?aId=8383
2024-09-17 01:22:00 +0200szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2024-09-17 01:23:53 +0200 <geekosaur> although I'm not finding the paper that further claimed that the apparent repulsion was actual repulsion because the average density of the universe is positive instead of 0 and voids have lower than that density
2024-09-17 01:24:00 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2024-09-17 01:24:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 01:33:32 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:9b8b:3d63:7b3f:ede3)
2024-09-17 01:34:23 +0200 <d34df00d> Also, speaking of performance.
2024-09-17 01:34:35 +0200d34df00dshamelessly plugging https://0xd34df00d.me/posts/2024/09/naive-nfas.html
2024-09-17 01:34:50 +0200 <geekosaur> anyway the claim in the paper I'm remembering is that going by the Milky Way's actual velocity, instead of being pulled into the "Great Attracttor" as originally believed, there's a 16km/s sideways push that means we'll just miss it instead. btu while they could measure it reproducibly, computing the gravitational pulls didn't reproduce that sideways "push"
2024-09-17 01:35:41 +0200 <geekosaur> then the researchers thought "wait a minute. if there are large voids we can see, that means the average density of space must be above the density within those voids, what does this do to the GR transformation matrices?"
2024-09-17 01:36:25 +0200 <geekosaur> the answer turned out to be, within the error bars, a 16km/s repulsion from the void in the UManoa paper I linked
2024-09-17 01:36:42 +0200 <haskellbridge> <@mad:matrix.org> Every time I look at those universe diagrams I get very scared of the cosmic spiders that weave it ...
2024-09-17 01:37:03 +0200 <geekosaur> so GR calculations just got a lot more complicated because all of those zeroes that aren't zeroes any more, so all the shortcuts don't work any more
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2024-09-17 01:48:26 +0200m5zs7k(aquares@web10.mydevil.net)
2024-09-17 01:48:49 +0200 <dolio> How could the average density be 0? Does that count 'dark energy' as negative density or something?
2024-09-17 01:49:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 01:52:45 +0200 <geekosaur> "near enough as no matter": it was believed that, despite all the stuff we can see, the gaps between them all are so large that they massive "outweigh" the mass-energy
2024-09-17 01:53:13 +0200 <dolio> Okay, so not actually 0, but very close.
2024-09-17 01:53:14 +0200 <geekosaur> (think about it: if it weren't very near 0, the sky would be gray at night, not black with some stars visible)
2024-09-17 01:53:17 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2024-09-17 01:53:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-17 01:54:07 +0200 <geekosaur> thing is, while it was thought to be "0, close enough", the very existence of voids says "no, it's not close enough to 0"
2024-09-17 01:55:43 +0200 <geekosaur> if everywhere not containing a galactic supercluster were a void, that'd be one thing. but voids and supervoids turn out to be patchy
2024-09-17 01:59:54 +0200 <geekosaur> this also has a detail that helps to confirm it: the better we get at looking, the more loose matter we see… except in those voids
2024-09-17 02:00:54 +0200 <geekosaur> one might think stuff would randomly wander into them and they'd gradually lose their "void-ness", but if gravitation is actually repulsive in voids, then they actively expel anything they have in them and become more "void"
2024-09-17 02:01:08 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, I mean, wikipedia says that the working definition is that a void has an average density less than 1/10 the average density of the universe. I guess you can only tell if that matters by knowing the actual average density, though?
2024-09-17 02:01:28 +0200 <geekosaur> right. and we're getting better at that all the time
2024-09-17 02:02:00 +0200 <geekosaur> as I said at the start of this, it's only within the past 10ish years that we've been in a position to talk about the actual average density
2024-09-17 02:02:38 +0200 <geekosaur> and the best we can do still is adding up the clusters and subtracting out the voids
2024-09-17 02:03:04 +0200 <geekosaur> uh, put that wrong. computing a relative average I guess
2024-09-17 02:04:08 +0200 <geekosaur> so the numbers are very definitely subject to change, but we already have enough evidence to say with certainty that, since voids exist and are easy to spot with our current tech, they are necessarily below the average mass-energy density
2024-09-17 02:04:33 +0200 <geekosaur> by enough that said average must be significant enough that we have to try to take it into account
2024-09-17 02:04:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 02:05:47 +0200 <geekosaur> that's still a developing story, though, as there's still large error bars on said average density
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2024-09-17 02:29:34 +0200 <geekosaur> looks like https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008IAUS..244..146T
2024-09-17 02:30:44 +0200 <geekosaur> except it's like a decade too early and I see no discussion about a revised average density (they say "really empty" which implies they're still using the "0, close enough" value)
2024-09-17 02:38:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 02:42:10 +0200 <geekosaur> and it appears to have been swallowed up by MOND theories that propose a different way to do the same thing
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2024-09-17 07:48:52 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: Cheers! As for flags, it's been a while since I did this kind of inspection in detail. Based on a cursory investigation of Core and STG -ddump output, it shouldn't actually matter too much which flag you use for the latter. That said, I would default to -ddump-stg-cg by analogy to -ddump-simpl: it's the intermediate, post-optimisation stage. The earlier and later stages are liable to either lack the info you want or be distorted by/for direc
2024-09-17 07:48:52 +0200 <Leary> tness of translation. Perhaps more importantly, both Core and STG output could really do with -dsuppress-all. I would make it default, perhaps with a button to toggle the suppression.
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2024-09-17 09:04:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: -ddump-stg-cg over -ddump-stg-final?
2024-09-17 09:04:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> I don't like -dsuppress-all because it makes the output ambiguous
2024-09-17 09:05:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> I've been meaning to add a little UI for toggling -d flags for a long time and I even have a little prototype implemented
2024-09-17 09:05:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> never got it to completion
2024-09-17 09:05:50 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer)
2024-09-17 09:07:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/3939a8bf93e27d8151aa1d92bf3ce10bbbc96a72/compiler/GHC/Dr…
2024-09-17 09:09:04 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: Yes. Re ambiguity, that's what I thought as well, so was going to suggest pairing it with -dno-suppress-uniques. Perhaps this is indeed necessary for the range of GHC versions you support, but with current GHC `all` does not include `uniques`.
2024-09-17 09:09:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> :o
2024-09-17 09:09:39 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2024-09-17 09:10:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> I may have misremembered, then
2024-09-17 09:10:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess -dsuppress-module-prefixes can get ambiguous too?
2024-09-17 09:11:31 +0200lol_(~lol@96.78.87.197)
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2024-09-17 09:13:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> hm I'm not sure I like -dsuppress-type-applications or -dsuppress-type-signatures either :p
2024-09-17 09:13:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> but they do make the listing more easily scannable
2024-09-17 09:13:48 +0200sroso(~sroso@user/SrOso)
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2024-09-17 09:14:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> maybe I _should_ complete that UI prototype at some point
2024-09-17 09:14:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> convince me that I should spend time on that
2024-09-17 09:14:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-17 09:17:33 +0200 <Leary> Personally, I don't think the playground needs a lot of resolution here. all(-ish) or nothing is good enough for me.
2024-09-17 09:17:59 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 09:18:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> maybe you're right; use suppress-all to scan, then turn it off to read what's really there
2024-09-17 09:19:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> the "obvious" UI for that is a drop-down next to the Core button; perhaps a little down-arrow that opens a panel with options
2024-09-17 09:19:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> but then we might want a field for arbitrary additional options to ghc as well, and that wouldn't be specific to one of the three run methods
2024-09-17 09:19:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> so would it be better to make this panel generic from the start, instead of specific for Core?
2024-09-17 09:20:08 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer)
2024-09-17 09:21:14 +0200spew(~spew@201.141.99.170)
2024-09-17 09:21:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> (just to conclude that little confusion: even 8.4.4, the earliest the playground currently supports, does not include suppress-uniques in suppress-all)
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2024-09-17 09:23:30 +0200 <Leary> I don't really know anything about GUI design. If anything, I'd want you to make it more friendly for non-mousers (e.g. on tridactyl). (AFK: dinner)
2024-09-17 09:24:07 +0200rosco(~rosco@175.136.158.234) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-09-17 09:24:26 +0200dtman34(~dtman34@c-174-53-203-90.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2024-09-17 09:27:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: is the current UI tridactyl-ready?
2024-09-17 09:27:18 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e)
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2024-09-17 09:42:57 +0200 <probie> tomsmeding: it doesn't have a quick and easy way to focus the text area (that I could find anyway) beyond just pressing tab a bunch of times, but otherwise works well enough
2024-09-17 09:43:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> probie: right, the code area is an existing library that I just pull in (ace.js)
2024-09-17 09:43:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> not sure if I can improve that much
2024-09-17 09:44:40 +0200 <Leary> Exactly. After hitting run, it's "hit tab seven times to keep typing". Gets pretty annoying after a few times, so I give up and copy-paste into/out-of vim.
2024-09-17 09:44:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> lol ok
2024-09-17 09:45:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 09:45:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> maybe the page should automatically re-focus the code editor after clicking the "run" button?
2024-09-17 09:45:30 +0200sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius)
2024-09-17 09:46:17 +0200 <Leary> Seems good to me.
2024-09-17 09:47:17 +0200spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) (Quit: spew)
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2024-09-17 09:57:48 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-09-17 09:58:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary probie: try again :)
2024-09-17 09:58:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> it only refocuses the editor if it was previously focused when clicking the button
2024-09-17 09:58:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> let me know if that works for you
2024-09-17 09:59:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> also, protip for you guys: if you press <C-,> in the editor, a settings pane pops up where you can enable vim keybindings
2024-09-17 09:59:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> not sure how well that plays with tridactyl, but it exists :p
2024-09-17 10:00:09 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2024-09-17 10:01:25 +0200 <Leary> Under tridactyl, you have to unfocus the text area (in effect, switch from input mode to normal mode) to access the keyboard controls to hit run.
2024-09-17 10:01:52 +0200 <Leary> So that restriction makes it a no-op to me.
2024-09-17 10:02:16 +0200 <Leary> Err, a non-change.
2024-09-17 10:02:24 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2024-09-17 10:03:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 10:07:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> I see!
2024-09-17 10:07:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2024-09-17 10:08:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> maybe it should just focus the editor unconditionally
2024-09-17 10:08:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> because trying to detect if the user is using such a plugin is probably a bad idea
2024-09-17 10:09:08 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2024-09-17 10:10:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> hm, I'm struggling to think of a downside of that
2024-09-17 10:11:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> (of unconditional focusing)
2024-09-17 10:13:13 +0200 <Leary> So long as it's a post-button-press thing ... (not aggressively-wrestle-for-focus-upon-loss)
2024-09-17 10:13:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah it would be triggered by the click on the Run/Core/Asm button
2024-09-17 10:14:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> I mean, that's why I implemented the conditional thing: if the editor is not currently focused, leave you doing your thing. But apparently that doesn't work with tridactyl
2024-09-17 10:15:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> ok change is live
2024-09-17 10:16:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> you guys should complain if interaction choices like this make your life bad
2024-09-17 10:16:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> I can always say "no I'm busy" :p
2024-09-17 10:18:32 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2024-09-17 10:18:49 +0200 <Leary> Possibly caching is getting in the way, I don't see the change. By the way, should I be testing on play-haskell.tomsmeding or play.haskell?
2024-09-17 10:19:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 10:22:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> they are the exact same thing
2024-09-17 10:22:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> play.haskell.org is a CNAME to play-haskell.tomsmeding.com
2024-09-17 10:23:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> also a note, by the way: <C-CR> in the editor re-runs with the last-used settings
2024-09-17 10:23:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 10:24:32 +0200 <Leary> Ah, /that/ helps.
2024-09-17 10:24:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: if you reload, does it say "(hi #haskell)" in the top-right corner
2024-09-17 10:26:45 +0200 <geekosaur> it does here fwiw
2024-09-17 10:26:58 +0200 <Leary> Yes, and still no apparent refocusing upon keyboard entry. Now that I try mouse-keys, I can see that it does refocus on /click/ however. Weird!
2024-09-17 10:27:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> ("hi haskell" note removed)
2024-09-17 10:28:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: interesting. Perhaps tridactyl refuses to give away focus while it's still processing a "normal mode" action?
2024-09-17 10:28:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> I could put the focus in a 0ms timeout
2024-09-17 10:28:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 10:29:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: I put it in a setTimeout(_, 0); does it work now?
2024-09-17 10:30:17 +0200 <Leary> Oh, it does. Sounds like a bit of a hack though, would that be reliable?
2024-09-17 10:30:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think it's fairly reliable. What it essentially does is "put the focus() call as the next item in the event loop"
2024-09-17 10:31:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> i.e. let all of the javascript stuff that is synchronously executing, finish, and after that (as the first asynchronous action), do the focus
2024-09-17 10:31:37 +0200 <Leary> I see, that should be fine then.
2024-09-17 10:31:45 +0200 <Leary> Yay. :)
2024-09-17 10:31:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> yay
2024-09-17 10:32:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> in nodejs there is even a special function that more specifically does this: process.nextTick(...)
2024-09-17 10:32:49 +0200 <geekosaur> many GUI Iframeworks have an `onIdle` or similar that does the same
2024-09-17 10:33:06 +0200 <geekosaur> sometimes with a delay option
2024-09-17 10:33:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-09-17 10:33:35 +0200 <probie> tomsmeding: beautiful
2024-09-17 10:33:40 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-09-17 10:33:57 +0200 <Leary> Re the settings panel: thanks for the heads-up, but I have no idea how to make it go away, and the settings don't seem to persist. Is it time to open the dreaded cookie jar?
2024-09-17 10:34:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: it goes away for me if I press <esc>
2024-09-17 10:34:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> or does tridactyl steal <esc> :p
2024-09-17 10:35:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> also clicking outside of it, but that's little help probably
2024-09-17 10:35:19 +0200youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic)
2024-09-17 10:35:32 +0200 <Leary> That could be what's happening. Could also be because my keyboard setup is weird and escape used to be capslock.
2024-09-17 10:35:45 +0200 <Leary> Though for similar reasons, I might not be able to use the vi mode anyway!
2024-09-17 10:35:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm hesitant to make those settings persist (if it's even possible, but with enough hacks it probably is) because what if someone messes them up and wants to reset? The panel is rendered by ace.js, I can't add UI elements there
2024-09-17 10:36:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> probie: yay :)
2024-09-17 10:39:18 +0200 <Leary> Oh, I can kill it with <C-esc>
2024-09-17 10:39:35 +0200 <Leary> But then it refuses to come back.
2024-09-17 10:39:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> :o
2024-09-17 10:40:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> the editor needs to be focused?
2024-09-17 10:40:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> (it's ace that's picking up <C-,>, not me)
2024-09-17 10:40:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 10:40:26 +0200 <Leary> Oh, right. (oops)
2024-09-17 10:42:15 +0200 <Leary> Yeah, I can't really use it becase escape already controls the outer modes. I'm sure there's a keybind to temporarily stop tridactyl from stealing it, but meh.
2024-09-17 10:43:44 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit)
2024-09-17 10:43:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's what I feared
2024-09-17 10:43:54 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 10:44:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-17 10:45:49 +0200 <Leary> (<C-esc> works again, but my muscle memory won't allow it)
2024-09-17 10:47:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> nah that is indeed an unfortunate experience :p
2024-09-17 10:47:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> but not one that I can do much about
2024-09-17 10:48:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> this was like the "ask a day's salary for hitting the right thing with a hammer"
2024-09-17 10:48:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> three commits, the collective diff of which is one well-chosen line of code
2024-09-17 10:49:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> ( https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/compare/b02b658ece2c8e4bac7043483f2ca13a4fef6458..0e76527c… )
2024-09-17 10:53:32 +0200 <Leary> One last suggestion: a link somewhere on the page that lists keybindings. I don't know how I would have ever found out about <C-CR> or <C-,> without word-of-god.
2024-09-17 10:53:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/discussions/46
2024-09-17 10:54:04 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@178.165.195.123.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 10:54:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> didn't hear anything back
2024-09-17 10:58:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 11:00:24 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@178.165.165.126.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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2024-09-17 11:26:21 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2024-09-17 11:29:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 11:33:11 +0200DigitteknohippieDigit
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2024-09-17 11:39:34 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@046044172198.static.ipv4.heldenvannu.net)
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2024-09-17 11:45:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 11:55:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: there is a Help link now
2024-09-17 11:55:25 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-09-17 11:55:32 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-09-17 11:57:51 +0200tomku(~tomku@user/tomku)
2024-09-17 12:00:20 +0200 <Leary> Nice. :)
2024-09-17 12:01:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 12:55:18 +0200sinbad(~sinbad@user/sinbad)
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2024-09-17 12:57:28 +0200sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-17 12:57:45 +0200 <sinbad> How to encode a value of Data.Decimal into JSON using aeson?
2024-09-17 12:58:43 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-17 13:00:04 +0200caconym8(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2024-09-17 13:02:33 +0200caconym8(~caconym@user/caconym)
2024-09-17 13:06:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 13:06:35 +0200ZharMeny(~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny)
2024-09-17 13:06:41 +0200hgolden_(~hgolden@146.70.173.229)
2024-09-17 13:09:43 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@169.150.203.36) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-09-17 13:18:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> sinbad: as a numeric value or as a string?
2024-09-17 13:20:57 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-17 13:21:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> (in the former case: put `realToFrac x` in instead; in the latter case: put `show x` in instead)
2024-09-17 13:21:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> :t realToFrac
2024-09-17 13:21:28 +0200 <lambdabot> (Real a, Fractional b) => a -> b
2024-09-17 13:22:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> note that realToFrac may lose precision here
2024-09-17 13:22:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> (which you probably care about, since you're using Decimal)
2024-09-17 13:22:35 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:c863:b7a9:76f1:1688)
2024-09-17 13:23:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 13:25:56 +0200 <sinbad> tomsmeding: thanks, I figured realToFrac. yes I care about precision since this is a financial application. Looks I just stay with double but then json shows loong ugly decimals.
2024-09-17 13:27:32 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e) (Quit: ash3en)
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2024-09-17 13:37:52 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2024-09-17 13:40:00 +0200 <sinbad> Is there a json package which can encode Decimal numbers?
2024-09-17 13:42:24 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-17 13:45:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> sinbad: JSON itself knows only numbers, strings, lists and objects
2024-09-17 13:46:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> no matter what package you use to generate your JSON, you'll need to decide _somewhere_ how to represent your data in terms of those basic types
2024-09-17 13:46:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> (oh, and `null` and booleans)
2024-09-17 13:47:18 +0200akegalj(~akegalj@141-136-172-97.dsl.iskon.hr)
2024-09-17 13:47:50 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e)
2024-09-17 13:48:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> and no, there is probably no existing json package that has built-in encoding for Decimal, because a type class instance either has to live with the class (making the json package depend on Decimal, which is gratuitous) or with the data type (making Decimal depend on that json package, which is also gratuitous)
2024-09-17 13:49:05 +0200 <akegalj> if I compile program with `-j4` do I have to run program with `+RTS -N` to get it run multithreaded or can I ommit `-N` and it will still run multithreaded?
2024-09-17 13:49:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> (and in any case, any such built-in encoding would be risky, because it would choose _for_ you whether to encode as a Double or as a String, and using what formatting exactly)
2024-09-17 13:49:08 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:244:fc00:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-17 13:49:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> akegalj: the -j flag to cabal and ghc has nothing to do with runtime multithreading
2024-09-17 13:49:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> -j makes _compilation_ multithreaded
2024-09-17 13:50:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> the -threaded flag to ghc (which you can put in `ghc-options:` in a cabal file) makes the runtime of your program thread-aware
2024-09-17 13:50:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 13:50:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> to actually make use of those threads, you can either pass +RTS -N (for as many threads as cores) or +RTS -N2 (for 2 threads), or call setNumCapabilities at runtime
2024-09-17 13:51:06 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: hm ok. Why https://github.com/NorfairKing/sydtest?tab=readme-ov-file#parallel-test-execution doesn't mention that. They all talk about -j
2024-09-17 13:51:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> or you can pass "-with-rtsopts=-N" to GHC, and it will default that -N flag
2024-09-17 13:51:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> akegalj: that would be the -j flag of the _test framework_, i.e. what you pass as an actual argument to your program if you use their defaultMain
2024-09-17 13:52:07 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: ah, my bad :/
2024-09-17 13:52:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> depends on the test framework whether you then also need to pass +RTS -N; perhaps not, but you'll certainly need to pass -threaded as a GHC option
2024-09-17 13:52:37 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@046044172198.static.ipv4.heldenvannu.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-17 13:52:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> akegalj: to set that -j option, use `cabal run mytestthing -- -j <n>`
2024-09-17 13:52:56 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: but its still strange... if their framework wants to use -j and run in multithreaded runtime it has to first be compiled with `-threaded` right ?
2024-09-17 13:53:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> yes
2024-09-17 13:53:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> but most people pass -threaded anyway
2024-09-17 13:53:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> otherwise _nothing_ in your haskell program can use multiple CPU cores
2024-09-17 13:53:50 +0200 <akegalj> tomsmeding: make sense, yes. Thank you
2024-09-17 13:54:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2024-09-17 15:01:31 +0200f-a(ff2a@joined.irc.for-some.fun)
2024-09-17 15:04:58 +0200 <f-a> hello, I have a problem with encoding
2024-09-17 15:05:12 +0200 <f-a> I wrote a small application that needs to read a number of files
2024-09-17 15:06:09 +0200 <f-a> I use `readFile`, but a user complained that some files are skipped. His locale is utf-8 and the files are ISO-8859
2024-09-17 15:07:30 +0200 <f-a> I would like to try latin1 if locale and utf-8 fails, but I am unsure how. I can read the file as ByteString, but I see no `decodeWithSystemLocale` function in Data.Text.Encoding
2024-09-17 15:07:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 15:08:01 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-17 15:08:02 +0200 <f-a> I guess the more general question is: this is probably a frequent occourrence, what is the sensible way to deal with it?
2024-09-17 15:09:50 +0200 <int-e> There's hSetEncoding
2024-09-17 15:10:32 +0200 <int-e> Though that'll work much better if you know the encoding to use. Autodetection sounds fragile and messy.
2024-09-17 15:12:12 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 15:14:18 +0200 <Rembane> Could you perhaps have an argument to the program that asks for the encoding?
2024-09-17 15:14:43 +0200 <f-a> Rembane: files might be mixed
2024-09-17 15:14:55 +0200 <Rembane> f-a: Oh. That's interesting.
2024-09-17 15:14:57 +0200srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt)
2024-09-17 15:16:00 +0200bravespear|2Ranhir
2024-09-17 15:16:35 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2024-09-17 15:17:04 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139)
2024-09-17 15:18:29 +0200saccharineboi(~saccharin@user/saccharineboi)
2024-09-17 15:20:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> there is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.20.0.1/docs/System-IO.html#v:localeEncoding
2024-09-17 15:21:33 +0200mal1lieven
2024-09-17 15:21:41 +0200 <f-a> yup that is what I am doing now http://www.ariis.it/static/paste/tmp/paste-xcoN0c.html
2024-09-17 15:22:19 +0200 <f-a> it feels fragile because I am not sure Handle will be closed at the end
2024-09-17 15:22:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> right
2024-09-17 15:22:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> hClose?
2024-09-17 15:22:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> also System.IO.withFile, which is even better
2024-09-17 15:22:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> in the presence of exceptions and such
2024-09-17 15:22:53 +0200saccharineboi(~saccharin@user/saccharineboi) (Client Quit)
2024-09-17 15:23:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> (which are likely here)
2024-09-17 15:23:15 +0200 <f-a> yup
2024-09-17 15:23:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> f-a: what is your minimum ghc version?
2024-09-17 15:23:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> since ghc 9.0 there is hGetContents' which does not do lazy IO
2024-09-17 15:23:50 +0200 <f-a> I guess what Debian ships so 9.0
2024-09-17 15:24:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 15:24:32 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2024-09-17 15:24:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> withFile -> hSetEncoding -> hGetContents' sounds like the best way to do this
2024-09-17 15:25:02 +0200 <int-e> f-a: Note that with lazy IO exceptions might arrive later...
2024-09-17 15:25:06 +0200 <f-a> yup, seems my best bet
2024-09-17 15:25:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> int-e: which is why hGetContents'
2024-09-17 15:26:06 +0200 <int-e> which text (assuming TI = Data.Text.IO) doesn't have
2024-09-17 15:26:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> int-e: that paste only goes through Text to use Data.Text.Encoding
2024-09-17 15:26:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> the final type is String
2024-09-17 15:26:47 +0200 <int-e> Oh.
2024-09-17 15:27:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> it would be even nicer to be able to decode a ByteString to a Text with the system locale
2024-09-17 15:27:20 +0200 <int-e> Wait, huh...
2024-09-17 15:27:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> but Data.Text.Encoding only does utf* and latin1
2024-09-17 15:27:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's why System.IO is involved in the first place
2024-09-17 15:28:07 +0200 <int-e> I see, it's really only read to Text and almost immediately decoded.
2024-09-17 15:28:14 +0200 <int-e> unpacked I mean
2024-09-17 15:28:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-17 15:30:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> one could dive deep in the implementation of a System.IO.TextEncoding and reconstruct a converter from ByteString to Text(-ish?)
2024-09-17 15:30:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> but that's nontrivial
2024-09-17 15:30:33 +0200spew(~spew@201.141.99.170)
2024-09-17 15:30:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> in the end it seems to decode from/to ForeignPtrs
2024-09-17 15:30:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> it _would_ be possible
2024-09-17 15:31:23 +0200 <Rembane> It sounds fun in a bad way
2024-09-17 15:31:30 +0200 <Rembane> Like something that would result in a good blog post
2024-09-17 15:31:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> and then you can even publish it as a library on hackage!
2024-09-17 15:32:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> TextEncoding -> ByteString -> Text
2024-09-17 15:36:21 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-17 15:36:33 +0200 <int-e> s/Text/Maybe Text/?
2024-09-17 15:36:55 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200)
2024-09-17 15:37:01 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
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2024-09-17 15:44:01 +0200mari-estel(~mari-este@2a02:3032:308:bf6a:216:3eff:fe65:4eef)
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2024-09-17 15:50:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 15:51:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh definitely
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2024-09-17 16:32:19 +0200lol_jcarpenter2
2024-09-17 16:34:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 16:34:58 +0200 <fr33domlover> o/ Is there way to capture the type of an expression? E.g. if I wrote a long expression `x = ......` and I'd like to `y <- readIO @(captureTypeOf x) "foobar"
2024-09-17 16:39:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-09-17 16:39:57 +0200 <lortabac> fr33domlover: you can have a look at the ScopedTypeVariables extension
2024-09-17 16:41:25 +0200 <fr33domlover> lortabac: Aware of it :) And I now see there's asTypeOf and proxyTypeOf, I think they'll do
2024-09-17 16:41:27 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-09-17 16:43:15 +0200 <lortabac> fr33domlover: ah yes with those helpers you may not even need to mention the type explicitly
2024-09-17 16:45:23 +0200lystra(~lystra@208.59.105.41) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-17 16:53:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 16:56:48 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2)
2024-09-17 16:57:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 16:57:27 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e)
2024-09-17 16:58:21 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:244:fc00:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da)
2024-09-17 16:58:41 +0200lystra(~lystra@208.59.105.41)
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2024-09-17 17:00:01 +0200 <probie> :t asTypeOf
2024-09-17 17:00:02 +0200 <lambdabot> a -> a -> a
2024-09-17 17:00:11 +0200f-a(ff2a@joined.irc.for-some.fun) ()
2024-09-17 17:00:26 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-17 17:01:11 +0200 <probie> :t do { x <- getLine; y <- readIO "\"foobar\"" `asTypeOf` (pure x); pure y }
2024-09-17 17:01:12 +0200 <lambdabot> IO String
2024-09-17 17:04:33 +0200finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
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2024-09-17 19:11:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 19:12:31 +0200mari-estel(~mari-este@2a02:3032:308:bf6a:216:3eff:fe65:4eef) (Quit: on the move)
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2024-09-17 19:14:57 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
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2024-09-17 19:16:57 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-09-17 19:17:40 +0200 <justsomeguy> Hello #haskell. Is there a good package for doing network inventory and subnet math, like ipaddr for Python?
2024-09-17 19:17:55 +0200 <justsomeguy> (or was it netaddr?)
2024-09-17 19:19:56 +0200 <justsomeguy> The `ip` and `iproute` packages have types for ip addresses, but no functions to do things like determine which subnetwork an ipaddr/cidr combination belong to, or to list all subnetworks of a network.
2024-09-17 19:20:57 +0200 <justsomeguy> (It seems like there aren't many libraries for sysadmin stuff in comparison to other langauges I use)
2024-09-17 19:21:22 +0200oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-09-17 19:22:30 +0200 <justsomeguy> I guess the good part is that the math is simple enough that I can implement my own library.
2024-09-17 19:27:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 19:28:12 +0200 <geekosaur> right, there's never been a lib for that that I've found (I wanted it back in 2007ish)
2024-09-17 19:31:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-17 19:32:33 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-17 19:33:51 +0200 <monochrom> All open source libraries began with "I guess I have to roll my own".
2024-09-17 19:35:26 +0200xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Quit: bye)
2024-09-17 19:35:54 +0200xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems)
2024-09-17 19:37:00 +0200 <monochrom> A much more accurate perspective can be obtained from changing "many other languages have it" to "many other communities have it". Availability of a library is a social issue, not a technical issue. It is a people's problem.
2024-09-17 19:37:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 19:39:46 +0200 <monochrom> I started liking programming because when I was young I disliked people and wanted to avoid them. 40 years later, I realize that it is still controlled by people (unless I could just isolate myself in the basement and write all code I need).
2024-09-17 19:40:24 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-17 19:40:34 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9151:7c00:e470:d401:9fdb:821e) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-17 19:41:14 +0200 <monochrom> But I still try to write some code I need :D https://github.com/treblacy/
2024-09-17 19:42:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-17 19:45:36 +0200 <geekosaur> s/disliked/found them hard to deal with/ (surprise)
2024-09-17 19:46:42 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah
2024-09-17 19:46:43 +0200 <geekosaur> of course when I turned it into a career I promptly found myself being the face between tech and business, whoops
2024-09-17 19:47:01 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
2024-09-17 19:47:30 +0200 <monochrom> The dislike was precisely because programming languages are so much more predictable than people at a whim.
2024-09-17 19:48:32 +0200 <Rembane> geekosaur: That sounds like the worst of two worlds
2024-09-17 19:48:52 +0200 <geekosaur> now add autism on top 😕
2024-09-17 19:49:07 +0200 <monochrom> To be sure, by the time complicated and buggy software like Office become common place, perhaps people are not too badly unpredictable in comparison >:D
2024-09-17 19:49:46 +0200 <Rembane> geekosaur: ^^
2024-09-17 19:50:09 +0200akegalj(~akegalj@141-136-172-97.dsl.iskon.hr) (Quit: leaving)
2024-09-17 19:50:18 +0200 <geekosaur> (not that I was diagnosed back then, it would be another decade before the Asperger paper was unearthed)
2024-09-17 19:50:49 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-09-17 19:51:25 +0200 <Rembane> It's the old school spectrum
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2024-09-17 20:28:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 20:53:41 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-17 20:53:52 +0200rvalue-(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
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2024-09-17 20:59:04 +0200red-snail(~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-09-17 20:59:18 +0200Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon)
2024-09-17 20:59:54 +0200rvalue-rvalue
2024-09-17 20:59:58 +0200red-snail(~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
2024-09-17 21:00:00 +0200caconym8(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
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2024-09-17 21:03:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-17 21:11:06 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-09-17 21:13:12 +0200remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-09-17 21:17:48 +0200remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz)
2024-09-17 21:20:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-17 21:20:13 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
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2024-09-17 21:31:05 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
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2024-09-17 21:41:44 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2024-09-17 21:42:25 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78.10.206.35) (Quit: oo_miguel)
2024-09-17 21:42:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-17 21:46:34 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
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2024-09-17 21:54:55 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2024-09-17 21:54:56 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
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2024-09-17 21:57:24 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
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2024-09-17 23:07:48 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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2024-09-17 23:44:13 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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