2024/09/01

2024-09-01 00:04:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 00:04:56 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-09-01 00:05:38 +0200Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@79.127.217.39) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-09-01 00:09:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-01 00:12:05 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-01 00:15:01 +0200Zer000(~Zer000@64.137.132.10)
2024-09-01 00:15:46 +0200 <Zer000> Is there a mirror for hoogle.haskell.org? that one is down atm.
2024-09-01 00:17:12 +0200 <geekosaur> again?
2024-09-01 00:17:21 +0200 <geekosaur> davean ^
2024-09-01 00:18:07 +0200 <geekosaur> meanwhile https://hoogle.mangoiv.com is a little underfeatured but should be as complete as the main one
2024-09-01 00:18:22 +0200 <Zer000> Oh sweet, thanks
2024-09-01 00:18:36 +0200 <geekosaur> you can also use the one on stackage.org
2024-09-01 00:19:53 +0200 <Zer000> Oh perfect.
2024-09-01 00:20:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 00:22:20 +0200 <energizer> does haskell know that -inf is the initial element for max?
2024-09-01 00:26:10 +0200 <mauke> know in what sense?
2024-09-01 00:26:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-01 00:28:48 +0200 <mauke> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5nso6Lhb an interactive calculator
2024-09-01 00:29:08 +0200 <mauke> in this version, associativity should actually work. still no unary operators, though
2024-09-01 00:31:01 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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2024-09-01 00:47:35 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@146.70.211.24) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2024-09-01 00:52:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 00:53:44 +0200SovereignNoumena(~Sovereign@68-69-210-238.sktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca)
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2024-09-01 00:58:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:02:21 +0200 <energizer> like `sum []` knows 0 is the initial element for +
2024-09-01 01:02:31 +0200fiddlerw-(~fiddlerwo@user/fiddlerwoaroof) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:06:29 +0200 <c_wraith> > maximum [] :: Double
2024-09-01 01:06:31 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.maximum: empty list
2024-09-01 01:06:40 +0200 <c_wraith> It dodges the question
2024-09-01 01:09:02 +0200 <c_wraith> > getMax $ (Max 5.0) <> (Max 2.33) :: Double -- let's try another approach
2024-09-01 01:09:04 +0200 <lambdabot> 5.0
2024-09-01 01:09:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 01:09:11 +0200 <c_wraith> > getMax $ mempty :: Double
2024-09-01 01:09:12 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2024-09-01 01:09:12 +0200 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Bounded Double) arising from a use of ‘mempty’
2024-09-01 01:09:12 +0200 <lambdabot> • In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘mempty’
2024-09-01 01:09:25 +0200 <c_wraith> Still dodging the question, but at compile time now :)
2024-09-01 01:09:32 +0200 <c_wraith> So... No.
2024-09-01 01:13:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:24:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 01:25:03 +0200Artea(~Lufia@2001:41d0:404:200::2d7)
2024-09-01 01:27:35 +0200raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:30:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:34:22 +0200hiredman(~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-09-01 01:34:36 +0200 <monochrom> I find the anthropopmorphizing "haskell knows", "sum knows" confusing.
2024-09-01 01:35:10 +0200 <monochrom> The Integer type does not have a minus infinity. The question is moot.
2024-09-01 01:36:21 +0200 <monochrom> Does Haskell "know" that Integer lacks the identity element of max?
2024-09-01 01:36:58 +0200 <dolio> Haskell died in 1982.
2024-09-01 01:37:05 +0200 <dolio> He doesn't know anything anymore.
2024-09-01 01:37:09 +0200 <monochrom> :)
2024-09-01 01:38:28 +0200 <energizer> monochrom: can you understand what i mean by `sum` knows that Double has the 0.0 identity element for +
2024-09-01 01:38:38 +0200 <monochrom> No.
2024-09-01 01:38:59 +0200 <energizer> is this guy serious
2024-09-01 01:39:08 +0200 <monochrom> I also don't understand how "sum knows" transitions to "haskell knows" instead of "maximum knows".
2024-09-01 01:40:30 +0200 <monochrom> I also pointed out that Integer does not have a minus infinity, so even if haskell/maximum "knows" (whatever that means), it is not "allowed" (whatever that means).
2024-09-01 01:41:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 01:42:03 +0200 <energizer> anyway thanks c_wraith
2024-09-01 01:42:22 +0200raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
2024-09-01 01:43:15 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-09-01 01:46:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-01 01:49:52 +0200 <weary-traveler> energizer: in the case of `sum', the 0 you get is the `mempty' corresponding to the Monoid instance of Sum
2024-09-01 01:50:39 +0200 <energizer> weary-traveler: yeah that's about what i figured
2024-09-01 01:50:44 +0200 <monochrom> Except that the code of sum hardcodes 0 and doesn't go through any Monoid stuff.
2024-09-01 01:51:13 +0200 <weary-traveler> hm does it?
2024-09-01 01:51:25 +0200 <monochrom> The type is revealing. It is only for Num.
2024-09-01 01:51:51 +0200 <energizer> it seems like there could be a (Double, Max, -inf) monoid but i guess it's not represented anywhere
2024-09-01 01:51:56 +0200 <monochrom> Or rather, it may use only Num methods.
2024-09-01 01:52:12 +0200 <weary-traveler> it uses only num methods, by specifying Sum
2024-09-01 01:52:28 +0200 <weary-traveler> the definition i'm seeing is `sum = getSum #. foldMap' Sum'
2024-09-01 01:52:43 +0200 <monochrom> And maximum, it may only use Ord methods. There is no Ord method that tells you a global lower bound.
2024-09-01 01:57:05 +0200Zer000(~Zer000@64.137.132.10) (Quit: Client closed)
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2024-09-01 02:59:06 +0200 <probie> > let inf = 1000**1000 in let nan = sqrt (-1) in [0 `min` inf, nan `min` inf, 0 `min` nan]
2024-09-01 02:59:07 +0200 <lambdabot> [0.0,Infinity,NaN]
2024-09-01 03:00:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-01 03:18:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 03:21:25 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-01 03:23:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-01 03:23:20 +0200 <monochrom> Interesting. :)
2024-09-01 03:26:03 +0200 <int-e> > 1/0
2024-09-01 03:26:05 +0200 <lambdabot> Infinity
2024-09-01 03:26:13 +0200 <int-e> > 0/0
2024-09-01 03:26:14 +0200 <lambdabot> NaN
2024-09-01 03:33:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 03:40:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-01 03:41:29 +0200 <probie> Or for something more terrifying
2024-09-01 03:41:32 +0200 <probie> > M.fromList [(0/0,"foo"),(0/0,"bar")]
2024-09-01 03:41:33 +0200 <lambdabot> fromList [(NaN,"foo"),(NaN,"bar")]
2024-09-01 03:42:05 +0200 <probie> > M.fromList [(0.0, "foo"), (0.0, "bar")]
2024-09-01 03:42:07 +0200 <lambdabot> fromList [(0.0,"bar")]
2024-09-01 03:42:36 +0200 <dolio> > let nan = 0/0 ; inf = 1/0 in (nan `min` inf, inf `min` nan)
2024-09-01 03:42:38 +0200 <lambdabot> (Infinity,NaN)
2024-09-01 03:42:42 +0200 <geekosaur> > M.fromList [(0.0, "foo"), (-0.0, "bar")]
2024-09-01 03:42:44 +0200 <lambdabot> fromList [(-0.0,"bar")]
2024-09-01 03:42:59 +0200 <probie> At least positive 0 is equal to negative 0
2024-09-01 03:43:25 +0200 <int-e> > 42 `S.member` S.fromList [42,0/0,0/0]
2024-09-01 03:43:27 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 03:44:22 +0200 <probie> I do wish there was a distinction in base between an expected lawful `Ord` instance, and a _required_ lawful `Ord` instance
2024-09-01 03:48:02 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@146.70.211.24)
2024-09-01 03:48:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 03:51:22 +0200 <dolio> It could be switched to the total ordering relation, I guess. But then -0.0 < 0.0.
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2024-09-01 05:02:29 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@146.70.211.24)
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2024-09-01 05:33:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh no, I'm late for the IEEE 754 weirdness session
2024-09-01 05:34:28 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-147-232.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-01 05:34:31 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> https://posithub.org/ this seems to be another take on its ideas
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2024-09-01 06:56:06 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
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2024-09-01 09:35:49 +0200 <yin> wait. why is 42 not a member of the Set?
2024-09-01 09:36:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 09:38:04 +0200 <yin> oh no, does the search follow the wrong branch?
2024-09-01 09:38:35 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores)
2024-09-01 09:38:51 +0200 <yin> > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [0/0,0/0,42]
2024-09-01 09:38:52 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2024-09-01 09:38:59 +0200 <yin> > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [0/0,42,0/0]
2024-09-01 09:39:01 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2024-09-01 09:39:10 +0200 <yin> > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [42,0/0,0/0]
2024-09-01 09:39:11 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 09:39:18 +0200 <yin> yikes
2024-09-01 09:39:25 +0200 <probie> > 42 < 0/0
2024-09-01 09:39:27 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 09:39:35 +0200 <probie> > 0/0 < 42
2024-09-01 09:39:36 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 09:39:45 +0200 <probie> > 0/0 < 0/0
2024-09-01 09:39:47 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 09:40:55 +0200 <yin> > 0/0 < 42
2024-09-01 09:40:56 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-09-01 09:41:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-01 09:41:22 +0200 <yin> so it is the search following the wrong branch
2024-09-01 09:41:32 +0200 <yin> how is Set represented internally?
2024-09-01 09:44:15 +0200 <yin> size balanced binary
2024-09-01 09:44:19 +0200 <yin> apparently
2024-09-01 09:45:23 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146)
2024-09-01 09:48:47 +0200 <yin> i hold the controversial opinion that programming languages should not try to emulate "numbers" but rather make their (and any type) binary representation as transparent as possible
2024-09-01 09:50:10 +0200 <yin> division should not be this magical operation on bits that lives behind a implementation dependent curtain
2024-09-01 09:51:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 09:52:24 +0200Artea(~Lufia@2001:41d0:404:200::2d7) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-09-01 09:53:36 +0200 <yin> floats should be an obscure package hidden away from the spotlight
2024-09-01 09:55:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-01 09:56:05 +0200 <yin> but i also think defaulting to base 10 representation is annoying so maybe i just need to chill
2024-09-01 09:57:10 +0200 <yin> obligatory "i use base 10" joke
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2024-09-01 14:16:42 +0200 <dminuoso> yin: Im not sure whether this is useful. Standards like IEEE 754 exist so mathematical operations behave predictable across differnet CPUs.
2024-09-01 14:16:55 +0200 <dminuoso> Or some approximation to mathematical operations.
2024-09-01 14:17:22 +0200 <dminuoso> And I guess in some sense IEEE 754 is fully transparent with respect to binary representation, since the binary representation is standardized.
2024-09-01 14:18:09 +0200 <mauke> tomsmeding: you were right. I think I've invented a simplification (?) of the shunting yard algorithm
2024-09-01 14:18:44 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-01 14:18:50 +0200 <mauke> only I don't need a full operand stack because there's only ever 0 or 1 pending operands; the rest are already associated with their corresponding operators (on the operator stack)
2024-09-01 14:25:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-01 14:48:33 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2024-09-01 14:51:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> mauke: interesting
2024-09-01 14:53:05 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-09-01 14:53:13 +0200skiwas at one point thinking about doing operator precedence parsing, with delimited continuations
2024-09-01 14:54:30 +0200meritamen(~user@user/meritamen)
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2024-09-01 15:04:34 +0200 <[exa]> btw anyone here uses yi? i just kinda tried and it seems surprisingly good so far
2024-09-01 15:04:59 +0200 <[exa]> (yi the editor)
2024-09-01 15:06:58 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> it's still maintained?
2024-09-01 15:07:32 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-01 15:08:07 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> a lil bit apparently
2024-09-01 15:12:12 +0200meritamen(~user@user/meritamen) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-01 15:12:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 15:14:09 +0200 <[exa]> not sure if it's maintained but it seems to just work™
2024-09-01 15:14:25 +0200 <Leary> I tried yi a few years back and it was pretty usable, but it didn't support everything that vim does for me out of the box. Trying to extend it to do so led me to the conclusion that it's not well architected, but perhaps someone with time on their hands could resolve that in refactoring.
2024-09-01 15:14:46 +0200 <[exa]> for sure looks like a cool base to do editors
2024-09-01 15:15:20 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> it's a holdover from the leksah era at the ignorant masses level of conceptualization
2024-09-01 15:16:43 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> if ignorant hs masses isn an oxymoron
2024-09-01 15:17:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-01 15:20:07 +0200 <mauke> looking at https://www.engr.mun.ca/~theo/Misc/exp_parsing.htm#shunting_yard, it is not immediately obvious that the first operand (x) always ends up as the left child of the first operator (* or +, respectively)
2024-09-01 15:20:41 +0200 <mauke> but it is true regardless of what other operators follow, so you can always associate x with the first operator immediately
2024-09-01 15:21:45 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-09-01 15:22:17 +0200 <[exa]> JuanDaugherty: I love that ignorant mass
2024-09-01 15:22:20 +0200 <mauke> similarly, if the second operator has higher precedence than the first (x + y * z), you end up with a stack of [(y *), (x +)]
2024-09-01 15:23:10 +0200 <mauke> otherwise (x * y + z), the whole tree constructed so far becomes the left operand of the second operator: [((x * y) +)]
2024-09-01 15:23:32 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> [exa], it does appear to be compiling after the usual fumbles
2024-09-01 15:24:36 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> but didn
2024-09-01 15:24:57 +0200 <[exa]> I just took it from debian repos
2024-09-01 15:24:59 +0200 <[exa]> lol
2024-09-01 15:25:11 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> lol
2024-09-01 15:25:31 +0200 <[exa]> from there I kinda inferred it's VERY STABLE
2024-09-01 15:26:01 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> didn i say 'a lil bit'?
2024-09-01 15:26:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 15:26:58 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: the "x is left child of 1st operator" seems okay to me because there's literally no other operator that could pop it
2024-09-01 15:27:44 +0200 <[exa]> (btw no idea why everyone does two stacks in the explanations, it's plain confusing)
2024-09-01 15:31:09 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
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2024-09-01 17:06:02 +0200 <fr33domlover> "WARNING: weak pointers to ordinary non-primitive Haskell types are particularly fragile, because the compiler is free to optimise away or duplicate the underlying data structure"
2024-09-01 17:06:02 +0200 <fr33domlover> So can I (but should I?) use an `Int#` as te key to a `Weak`? I never used these primite with-hash-suffix types, is there any example? Or is it better to use Weak with an IORef as the docs suggest?
2024-09-01 17:06:28 +0200 <fr33domlover> *primitive
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2024-09-01 18:06:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> fr33domlover: you can't even use an `Int#` as the key to a `Weak`; `k` must be a lifted type
2024-09-01 18:07:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> (lifted + boxed, to be more precise)
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2024-09-01 18:07:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> lifted means that it has an undefined value: Int is lifted because `undefined :: Int` is a thing
2024-09-01 18:08:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> undefined :: Int# is not something you can create
2024-09-01 18:08:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> (this is why unlifted values feel "strict")
2024-09-01 18:08:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> boxed means that it is represented by a pointer on the heap, instead of the actual value
2024-09-01 18:08:40 +0200 <fr33domlover> tomsmeding: So which types are allowed? Which types are primitive but lifted and boxed?
2024-09-01 18:08:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> an Int# is unboxed unlifted, meaning that it's an actual 8-byte thing directly
2024-09-01 18:09:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> Int is boxed lifted, so it's a pointer (which may point to a bottom value) to something else (an Int#)
2024-09-01 18:09:10 +0200 <int-e> fr33domlover: ByteArray# is one of those
2024-09-01 18:09:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> int-e: ByteArray# is unlifted
2024-09-01 18:09:39 +0200 <int-e> but boxed
2024-09-01 18:09:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> indeed
2024-09-01 18:13:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> the kind of the `k` type parameter to mkWeak is Type
2024-09-01 18:13:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> can't pass a ByteArray# in there
2024-09-01 18:15:28 +0200 <int-e> :t GHC.Internal.mkWeak#
2024-09-01 18:15:30 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2024-09-01 18:15:30 +0200 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘GHC.Internal.mkWeak#’
2024-09-01 18:15:30 +0200 <lambdabot> No module named ‘GHC.Internal’ is imported.
2024-09-01 18:15:42 +0200 <int-e> :t GHC.Base.mkWeak#
2024-09-01 18:15:43 +0200 <lambdabot> a -> b -> (GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld -> (# GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld, c #)) -> GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld -> (# GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld, GHC.Prim.Weak# b #)
2024-09-01 18:16:07 +0200 <int-e> that type lies; a and b are levity polymorphic
2024-09-01 18:16:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t GHC.Base.mkWeak#
2024-09-01 18:16:32 +0200 <yahb2> GHC.Base.mkWeak# ; :: forall {l :: GHC.Types.Levity} {k :: GHC.Types.Levity} ; (a :: TYPE ('GHC.Types.BoxedRep l)) ; (b :: TYPE ('GHC.Types.BoxedRep k)) c. ; a ; ...
2024-09-01 18:16:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> (I set some flags in yahb2)
2024-09-01 18:17:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it would make no sense if there's no sensible way to use mkWeak -- why would it exist then?
2024-09-01 18:17:22 +0200 <int-e> boxed unlifted objects work
2024-09-01 18:17:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> with mkWeak#
2024-09-01 18:17:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> but surely mkWeak exists for a reason?
2024-09-01 18:17:37 +0200 <int-e> oh
2024-09-01 18:17:57 +0200 <int-e> @hoogle mkWeak
2024-09-01 18:17:57 +0200 <lambdabot> System.Mem.Weak mkWeak :: k -> v -> Maybe (IO ()) -> IO (Weak v)
2024-09-01 18:17:57 +0200 <lambdabot> GHC.Weak mkWeak :: k -> v -> Maybe (IO ()) -> IO (Weak v)
2024-09-01 18:17:57 +0200 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent mkWeakThreadId :: ThreadId -> IO (Weak ThreadId)
2024-09-01 18:18:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 18:19:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> the haddocks for Weak essentially say "don't use mkWeak"?
2024-09-01 18:19:41 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-09-01 18:19:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, it says "don't set a finalizer with mkWeak"
2024-09-01 18:20:06 +0200 <int-e> I think the fat WARNING in the docs basically says that that function is not fit for use.
2024-09-01 18:20:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> (then why does mkWeak take an optional finalizer?)
2024-09-01 18:20:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> but then why does it exist???
2024-09-01 18:20:21 +0200 <int-e> But it could make that fact way clearer.
2024-09-01 18:20:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> accursedUnutterablePerformIO should not be used in general, but there are legitimate use cases (if you're a GHC hacker)
2024-09-01 18:20:40 +0200 <int-e> I can't answer that; I'd speculate that there are historical reasons.
2024-09-01 18:20:43 +0200 <fr33domlover> I guess I'll just use mkWeakIORef unless there are other nice options
2024-09-01 18:20:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> fr33domlover: that sounds like the correct approach
2024-09-01 18:21:31 +0200 <int-e> As in... I imagine people learned the hard way that mkWeak can't be used. But never removed it somehow. Maybe there's a ticket for that? :)
2024-09-01 18:22:44 +0200 <geekosaur> at the end of the warning there's an observation about memo tables and such, maybe that's why it's kept?
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2024-09-01 18:23:51 +0200 <int-e> geekosaur: hmm, plausible
2024-09-01 18:24:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> found something, but not quite the issue we want yet https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/6130
2024-09-01 18:25:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/7250
2024-09-01 18:25:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> and here is the warning https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/39b9f94a73895dd0f90dd4e12f78e3052b548de1
2024-09-01 18:26:46 +0200 <geekosaur> the other thing that comes to mind is mkWeakThreadId
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2024-09-01 18:40:23 +0200 <glguy> Perhaps mkWeak is for making a weak reference to a thing that already has a finalizer
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2024-09-01 19:47:58 +0200 <dminuoso> 16:20:37 tomsmeding │ accursedUnutterablePerformIO should not be used in general, but there are legitimate use cases (if you're a GHC hacker)
2024-09-01 19:48:18 +0200 <dminuoso> I thought the primary use case for accursedUnutterablePerformIO was actually libraries like `text`
2024-09-01 19:48:40 +0200 <dminuoso> Oh no, bytestring.
2024-09-01 19:48:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> which is written by? ;)
2024-09-01 19:48:58 +0200 <dminuoso> Good question, let me git blame chase that.
2024-09-01 19:49:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> :p maybe they aren't quite active GHC hackers, but slightly less pithily, my point was that it's folly to try to use it unless you know very well what GHC will do with it
2024-09-01 19:49:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> so its documentation is plastered with warnings, rightfully, but there's still a reason for the function to exist
2024-09-01 19:50:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> now geekosaur made a good point that the documentation for mkWeak actually mentions a possible use case, so there is a reason for the function to exist
2024-09-01 19:50:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it seemed for a bit (to me) that there wasn't
2024-09-01 19:51:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-09-01 19:52:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Introduced by commit 703b1210b8a77009de593c2ab2ae2ac57f9f9636
2024-09-01 19:52:45 +0200 <dminuoso> Author: Don Stewart <dons@cse.unsw.edu.au>
2024-09-01 19:53:02 +0200 <dminuoso> Who I dont think was involved in GHC
2024-09-01 19:53:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> but also not quite a nobody
2024-09-01 19:53:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> okay my claim was maybe a bit strong :)
2024-09-01 19:53:40 +0200 <dminuoso> He's responsible for some of GHC stream fusion.
2024-09-01 19:54:10 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: Oh no worries, this just turned into some quest of curiosity - not to prove you wrong.
2024-09-01 19:54:51 +0200 <dminuoso> The git commit however suggests that perhaps Simon Marlow was involved in the idea, or perhaps even wrote it - unclear.
2024-09-01 19:56:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> "courtesy Simon M" is definitely suggestive
2024-09-01 19:56:01 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2024-09-01 19:56:16 +0200 <dminuoso> +-- Just like inlinePerformIO, but we inline it.
2024-09-01 19:56:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> which is a comment above... inlinePerformIO
2024-09-01 19:56:45 +0200 <dminuoso> It's quite curious how its dangerous consequences were not obvious back then, or perhaps GHC wasn't as aggressive in let floating bacl then
2024-09-01 19:56:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> feels recursive
2024-09-01 19:57:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> definitely
2024-09-01 19:57:13 +0200 <dminuoso> I think that's just a typo, probably meant to read `unsafePerformIO`
2024-09-01 19:57:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> right
2024-09-01 19:58:49 +0200 <dminuoso> Actually no, that's not let-float (which is the opposite direction, should not cause faulty code)
2024-09-01 19:59:17 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:21d:ad00:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da)
2024-09-01 19:59:59 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203)
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2024-09-01 20:03:12 +0200 <monochrom> I think the causality is the other way round. Dons wanted to make bytestring faster, so he helped with the yak shaving of adding stream fusion.
2024-09-01 20:03:31 +0200 <monochrom> bytestring and/or text.
2024-09-01 20:04:21 +0200 <int-e> It was named `inlinePerformIO` then :-)
2024-09-01 20:04:33 +0200 <int-e> And then the bugs piled up.
2024-09-01 20:04:44 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2024-09-01 20:04:55 +0200 <int-e> (good times)
2024-09-01 20:05:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-01 20:05:43 +0200 <int-e> (ah the name was mentioned already, of course)
2024-09-01 20:06:50 +0200 <monochrom> theUnsafePerformIOWhoMustNotBeNamed >:)
2024-09-01 20:07:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> that sounds like it's a person ;)
2024-09-01 20:07:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> I mean, maybe it is
2024-09-01 20:08:33 +0200 <int-e> dminuoso: "it's quite curious" -- IIRC it only broke if the compiler could actually see two bytestring allocations of the same size... which easily happens when you have a lot of them, but not so easily in small test cases
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2024-09-01 22:12:43 +0200biberao(~m@user/biberao)
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2024-09-01 22:33:08 +0200 <biberao> hi
2024-09-01 22:35:22 +0200troojg(~troojg@user/troojg)
2024-09-01 22:38:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 22:41:28 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
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2024-09-01 22:53:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 22:54:01 +0200 <geekosaur> int-e, not quite: it saw two assignments to "the same place" inside a loop, but inlinePerformIO removes the barrier that keeps such things from being hoisted out of the loop
2024-09-01 22:55:02 +0200 <geekosaur> allocate-and-store, that is, so it hoisted the allocate and stored it multiple times
2024-09-01 22:55:21 +0200 <int-e> yes and that only happens if the allocations have the same size
2024-09-01 22:55:33 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-09-01 22:55:37 +0200 <int-e> as seen by the compiler; since the allocation size is an argument for the allocation function
2024-09-01 22:57:54 +0200 <int-e> (I didn't try to explain the bug; I tried to explain why it made it into a release of bytestring without anyone noticing)
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2024-09-01 23:07:59 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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2024-09-01 23:16:46 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@2601:14d:4e01:1370:7d74:cd19:266b:9129)
2024-09-01 23:24:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 23:26:19 +0200dsrt^(~dsrt@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2024-09-01 23:29:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-01 23:29:20 +0200 <dmj`> monochrom: VoldemortIO
2024-09-01 23:30:09 +0200 <dmj`> accIO lumos
2024-09-01 23:36:39 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-01 23:40:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-01 23:55:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-01 23:58:42 +0200 <monochrom> :)