2024/08/28

2024-08-28 00:01:26 +0000 <EvanR> don't get histozygoprepromorphisms
2024-08-28 00:01:35 +0000 <EvanR> don't forget for
2024-08-28 00:02:22 +0000 <probie> zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms are a pillar of good software engineering
2024-08-28 00:05:12 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-28 00:09:53 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
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2024-08-28 00:17:21 +0000ZharMeny(~user@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4))
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2024-08-28 00:33:46 +0000 <jle`> is there any way to use -XPackageImports to qualify between two different sublibraries in the same cabal project
2024-08-28 00:33:59 +0000 <jle`> please dont judge me it's for a good reason
2024-08-28 00:34:20 +0000 <jle`> sorry i mean same cabal package
2024-08-28 00:36:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-28 00:36:27 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2024-08-28 00:46:38 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
2024-08-28 00:49:02 +0000JamesMowery(~JamesMowe@ip98-167-207-182.ph.ph.cox.net) (Quit: Goodbye)
2024-08-28 00:49:27 +0000 <geekosaur> I don't think ghc knows enough about cabal's concept of sublibraries. but ask in #hackage
2024-08-28 00:49:38 +0000JamesMowery(~JamesMowe@ip98-167-207-182.ph.ph.cox.net)
2024-08-28 00:49:47 +0000 <geekosaur> (although I think the people who woulds know are gone for the day, sadly)
2024-08-28 00:51:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-28 00:55:50 +0000 <dmj`> jle`: judged
2024-08-28 00:57:06 +0000lystra(~lystra@208.59.105.41)
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2024-08-28 01:00:56 +0000 <Axman6> so judged
2024-08-28 01:01:57 +0000JamesMowery(~JamesMowe@ip98-167-207-182.ph.ph.cox.net)
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2024-08-28 01:33:22 +0000 <dmj`> can't believe u
2024-08-28 01:35:44 +0000Luj9(~Luj@2a01:e0a:de4:a0e1:be24:11ff:febc:b5b5)
2024-08-28 01:37:24 +0000 <monochrom> Blind guessing but maybe "pkgname:foo" instead of just "pkgname" just happens to do that.
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2024-08-28 01:47:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> how can I make an unfold that can discard some values?
2024-08-28 01:50:15 +0000 <c_wraith> like that backspace exercise someone was mentioning a couple days ago?
2024-08-28 01:50:33 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2024-08-28 01:53:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-28 01:55:22 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> huh i'll try to find it
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2024-08-28 01:55:38 +0000 <c_wraith> well, the conclusion what "that's not an unfold", so it won't help :)
2024-08-28 01:55:48 +0000 <c_wraith> err, the conclusion *was*
2024-08-28 01:56:46 +0000rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-28 01:57:17 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya: Discarding as not adding anything or removing previous values?
2024-08-28 01:57:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: not adding anything
2024-08-28 01:57:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-08-28 01:57:40 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The first one is a futumorphism, the other one is not a recursion scheme AFAIK
2024-08-28 01:57:47 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah
2024-08-28 01:57:50 +0000 <c_wraith> Oh. Isn't "not adding anything" the default?
2024-08-28 01:57:53 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Ah great, futumorphism it is
2024-08-28 01:57:57 +0000 <c_wraith> Like... just run the calculation again
2024-08-28 01:58:05 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah it's a futumorphism
2024-08-28 01:58:53 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty
2024-08-28 02:00:26 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Np
2024-08-28 02:00:41 +0000 <monochrom> :(
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2024-08-28 02:01:21 +0000 <probie> Also, you can change your functor to allow a "not adding anything" action, and then use a catamorphism to turn it back to your desired functor (giving you a hylomorphism, so it should be "cheap")
2024-08-28 02:01:35 +0000 <monochrom> :)
2024-08-28 02:01:49 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> probie: will play around with this idea too, thanks!
2024-08-28 02:02:17 +0000 <lystra> Hi. I built ghc-9.4.8 and am now building zlib-0.7.1.0. If I have zlib.h/libz.so in a non-standard location, how do I get the build process to look in this non-standard location?
2024-08-28 02:03:36 +0000 <monochrom> Ideally you configure pkg-config to know and output the location, but I am being theoretical.
2024-08-28 02:04:26 +0000 <lystra> monochrom: Thanks.
2024-08-28 02:05:00 +0000 <monochrom> --extra-include-dirs and --extra-lib-dirs should help.
2024-08-28 02:05:45 +0000td_(~td@i53870933.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-28 02:05:56 +0000 <probie> In the example I linked earlier, that's actually the purpose of my `WithSkip` type. `f4` is actually doing this; it skips even numbers (albeit as `cata f . ana g` instead of `hylo f g`)
2024-08-28 02:07:20 +0000td_(~td@i53870920.versanet.de)
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2024-08-28 02:14:35 +0000 <lystra> Does the use of pkg-config and --extra-include-dirs/--extra-lib-dirs assume cabal is being used for the build?
2024-08-28 02:14:48 +0000raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
2024-08-28 02:15:44 +0000 <monochrom> Yes I was assuming cabal.
2024-08-28 02:16:23 +0000 <lystra> We're building without cabal. Sorry I wasn't more specific.
2024-08-28 02:16:47 +0000 <monochrom> But if you're running Setup.hs it should also be --extra-include-dirs and --extra-lib-dirs
2024-08-28 02:18:13 +0000 <lystra> Looks like setting PKG_CONFIG_PATH was sufficient. Thanks!
2024-08-28 02:22:28 +0000 <geekosaur> iirc it's up to the package whether pkg-config is used or not, not cabal-install
2024-08-28 02:22:40 +0000 <geekosaur> (the Cabal library will be used either way)
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2024-08-28 02:25:47 +0000 <mauke> IIRC the big hammer is CPATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
2024-08-28 02:28:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-28 02:35:06 +0000 <lystra> Looks like it uses "pkg-config --libs zlib" but then only uses the -L paths in the output, not -Wl,-rpath if it is in the --libs output. Is there an easy way to add to the RUNPATH of a package?
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2024-08-28 05:56:16 +0000 <jle`> mauke: it doesn't work because : is an illegal character :(
2024-08-28 05:56:22 +0000 <jle`> oops that was for monochrom
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2024-08-28 06:17:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> any way to get a more detailed error on "non-exhaustive patterns in case"? e.g. what is it the input that couldn't get pattern matched?
2024-08-28 06:20:13 +0000 <[exa]> thirdofmay18081814goya: append `e -> error (show e)`
2024-08-28 06:20:58 +0000 <[exa]> sadly to show anything useful of the unknown case, you need to carry there some kinda showey implementation
2024-08-28 06:21:14 +0000 <mauke> thirdofmay18081814goya: compile with -Wincomplete-patterns?
2024-08-28 06:24:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146)
2024-08-28 06:24:43 +0000youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-08-28 06:25:33 +0000nek0(~nek0@user/nek0)
2024-08-28 06:27:53 +0000youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic)
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2024-08-28 06:37:20 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah that worked, ty!
2024-08-28 06:37:50 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-28 06:40:08 +0000myxos(~myxos@syn-065-028-251-121.res.spectrum.com)
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2024-08-28 06:45:56 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2024-08-28 06:55:01 +0000 <Axman6> HLS should also warn you about it in your editor
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2024-08-28 07:21:48 +0000Wstfgl0Me-me
2024-08-28 07:21:48 +0000bsima(~bsima@2604:a880:400:d0::19f1:7001)
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2024-08-28 07:24:03 +0000Umeaboy(~Umeaboy@94-255-145-133.cust.bredband2.com)
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2024-08-28 07:25:10 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.150.250)
2024-08-28 07:25:45 +0000 <Umeaboy> Hi! I guess (not being an expert) that when someone that uses openSUSE decides to package ghc-bootstrap openSUSE has it's own way of handling external files like LICENSE and README.openSUSE. Am I right?
2024-08-28 07:25:50 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146)
2024-08-28 07:26:07 +0000 <Umeaboy> I can't get the %doc and %licens working in Mageia 9.
2024-08-28 07:26:38 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-08-28 07:29:37 +0000rosco(~rosco@175.136.158.234)
2024-08-28 07:31:06 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza)
2024-08-28 07:35:29 +0000Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius)
2024-08-28 07:36:42 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2024-08-28 07:37:29 +0000CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip-109-42-114-71.web.vodafone.de)
2024-08-28 07:37:58 +0000 <exa2> Umeaboy: might be better to ask opensuse devs; looks very opensuse specific
2024-08-28 07:38:10 +0000 <exa2> Umeaboy: also what's mageia. :D
2024-08-28 07:38:18 +0000 <Umeaboy> exa2: Fork of Mandriva.
2024-08-28 07:39:18 +0000exa2[exa]
2024-08-28 07:39:20 +0000 <Franciman> mageia is quite nice, exa2 is it the distro based on spells?
2024-08-28 07:39:22 +0000 <Umeaboy> First came Mandrakesoft, then Mandrake, then Mandriva, then Mandriva fired a lot of people and that's when some of the fired staff decided to fork Mandriva.
2024-08-28 07:39:26 +0000[exa](~exa@srv3n.blesmrt.net) (Changing host)
2024-08-28 07:39:26 +0000[exa](~exa@user/exa/x-3587197)
2024-08-28 07:40:01 +0000CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip-109-42-114-71.web.vodafone.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-08-28 07:40:04 +0000 <[exa]> not sure tbh, I used mandrake once back in the very old days
2024-08-28 07:40:10 +0000 <[exa]> cool it still lives on
2024-08-28 07:41:34 +0000 <Umeaboy> Yes.
2024-08-28 07:41:50 +0000 <Umeaboy> We need more bug fixers though. :)
2024-08-28 07:43:13 +0000CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip-109-42-114-71.web.vodafone.de)
2024-08-28 07:45:36 +0000 <geekosaur> doesn't everyone?
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2024-08-28 12:52:57 +0000 <ash3en> would it make sense to install ghcup with xbps-src on void? or the AUR respectively?
2024-08-28 12:54:01 +0000 <geekosaur> if you do, be aware that you can't update it from within ghcup, you would have to wait for the package to be updated
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2024-08-28 13:02:08 +0000 <ash3en> thanks for the advice. It feels that ghcup is rather stable and updates are not that often. + I would probably maintain the package myself
2024-08-28 13:02:15 +0000 <ash3en> at least in void
2024-08-28 13:02:36 +0000samhh_(7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4)
2024-08-28 13:03:42 +0000JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
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2024-08-28 13:18:19 +0000 <ash3en> ah, I see there were already PR's but it seems they stall
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2024-08-28 13:39:29 +0000 <ash3en> ah and how about xmonad? seems less convenient if one wants to change their config and recompile
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2024-08-28 13:54:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's the technical term describing the relationship between these two types? "[a] -> [a]" ; "[Int] -> [Int]"
2024-08-28 13:55:25 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> and what's the technical term describing the relationship between "forall a. [a] -> [a]" and "[a0] -> [a0]"?
2024-08-28 13:56:34 +0000 <zero> > zip <*> tail $ "abcde"
2024-08-28 13:56:35 +0000 <lambdabot> [('a','b'),('b','c'),('c','d'),('d','e')]
2024-08-28 13:56:43 +0000 <zero> what if i want trigrams?
2024-08-28 13:57:32 +0000CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip-109-42-114-71.web.vodafone.de)
2024-08-28 13:57:49 +0000 <EvanR> thirdofmay18081814goya: you specialized a polymorphic type
2024-08-28 13:58:20 +0000 <EvanR> the second one is the same thing just you specialized to an unknown type variable instead of a concrete type
2024-08-28 13:58:41 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah I see, thanks a lot!
2024-08-28 14:02:52 +0000 <probie> > zip3 <*> tail <*> tail.tail $ "abcde"
2024-08-28 14:02:53 +0000 <lambdabot> [('a','b','c'),('b','c','d'),('c','d','e')]
2024-08-28 14:04:47 +0000 <probie> > let ngrams n xs = take (length xs - n + 1) $ map (take n) $ tails xs in ngrams 3 "abcde"
2024-08-28 14:04:49 +0000 <lambdabot> ["abc","bcd","cde"]
2024-08-28 14:06:16 +0000 <byorgey> > let ngrams n xs = takeWhile ((==n).length) $ map (take n) $ tails xs in ngrams 3 "abcde" -- alternative requiring less fiddly math
2024-08-28 14:06:17 +0000 <lambdabot> ["abc","bcd","cde"]
2024-08-28 14:08:01 +0000ZharMeny(~user@185.248.130.75)
2024-08-28 14:09:44 +0000ZharMeny(~user@185.248.130.75) (Client Quit)
2024-08-28 14:14:11 +0000 <probie> byorgey: less fiddly maths, but that calls `length` on every element, which isn't cheap
2024-08-28 14:17:02 +0000ZharMeny(~user@185.248.130.75)
2024-08-28 14:17:04 +0000 <[exa]> thirdofmay18081814goya: in HM descriptions the removal of "forall" is sometimes called instantiation
2024-08-28 14:17:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> [exa]: would we distinguish between instantiation and specialization?
2024-08-28 14:18:02 +0000 <[exa]> good question :D
2024-08-28 14:18:22 +0000ZharMeny(~user@185.248.130.75) (Client Quit)
2024-08-28 14:19:05 +0000 <[exa]> usually specialization is used when you replace variables by constants, instantiation is when you replace foralled-variables by fresh variables that belong into your context
2024-08-28 14:19:21 +0000 <[exa]> so for your examples the first would be more like specialization, and the secon more like instantiation
2024-08-28 14:19:37 +0000mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
2024-08-28 14:20:17 +0000 <[exa]> but many sources also clearly use the wording that e.g. "Int->Int" is an instance of "a->a" etc, w.r.t. to substitution instead of explicit forall
2024-08-28 14:20:46 +0000ZharMeny(~user@185.248.130.75)
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2024-08-28 14:21:47 +0000ZharMeny(~user@user/ZharMeny)
2024-08-28 14:21:48 +0000 <[exa]> I think there will be some authoritative source that draws a line between those but I don't know of any
2024-08-28 14:23:29 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i see thanks a lot!
2024-08-28 14:26:24 +0000 <EvanR> oh yeah, instantiate good call
2024-08-28 14:27:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> when the compiler substitutes "a" for "a0", this is instantiation right?
2024-08-28 14:28:31 +0000ZharMeny(~user@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: ')
2024-08-28 14:28:38 +0000dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-28 14:28:44 +0000 <[exa]> well, that's substitution. Substitution creates instances of formulas (which is a normal view in symbolic logic I'd say).
2024-08-28 14:29:05 +0000ZharMeny(~user@user/ZharMeny)
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2024-08-28 14:29:36 +0000 <[exa]> I always saw "instantiation" as more of an "active" operation that really kills at least one selected `forall` mark in the formula.
2024-08-28 14:30:00 +0000 <[exa]> opinions may vary though, never got educated in these things formally :)
2024-08-28 14:34:05 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see ty
2024-08-28 14:34:32 +0000ZharMeny`(~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny)
2024-08-28 14:34:41 +0000 <carbolymer> seems that list comprehensions don't work with OverloadedLists?
2024-08-28 14:36:20 +0000lol__jcarpenter2
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2024-08-28 14:53:21 +0000 <[exa]> carbolymer: how come? (maybe MonadComprehensions would help there?)
2024-08-28 14:54:22 +0000comonad(~comonad@p54a0342e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-08-28 14:54:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya also the first one is the subtyping relation between types in a polymorphic lambda calculus
2024-08-28 14:55:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: noted ty!
2024-08-28 14:55:48 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Typically A ≤ B meaning "A is less polymorphic than B" (the order might be wrong, I forgot lol)
2024-08-28 14:56:12 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> (≤ is also used for subtypes, of course)
2024-08-28 14:57:32 +0000 <carbolymer> [exa]: not much, not everything is a monad. An example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/aLA3CMPP
2024-08-28 14:57:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, enabling explicit foralls should make them appear in "couldn't match type" errors right?
2024-08-28 14:58:12 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2)
2024-08-28 14:59:11 +0000 <constxd> bros
2024-08-28 14:59:18 +0000 <[exa]> carbolymer: yeah the question there is how would you join sets if you'd do something like [a+b | a<-[1,2,3], b<-[2,3,4]] :: S.Set int
2024-08-28 14:59:43 +0000 <constxd> what the heck is loop supposed to be used for (from Arrow)
2024-08-28 14:59:59 +0000 <[exa]> carbolymer: afaik all sane methods basically reduce down to doing it with lists again
2024-08-28 15:00:48 +0000 <carbolymer> [exa]: https://play.haskell.org/saved/OjLIgIg8 isn't that just boils down to removing explicit `fromList` ?
2024-08-28 15:01:08 +0000 <carbolymer> [exa]: without `fromList` it doesn't work
2024-08-28 15:06:24 +0000 <[exa]> hm yeah I see, one would expect the `IsList` to trigger there automatically
2024-08-28 15:06:40 +0000 <carbolymer> exactly
2024-08-28 15:09:00 +0000comonad(~comonad@p54a0342e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-28 15:09:52 +0000 <[exa]> carbolymer: ok seems like you might as well be the first one ever to try this
2024-08-28 15:09:58 +0000 <carbolymer> lol
2024-08-28 15:12:07 +0000 <[exa]> constxd: from the (->) instance it seems like it lets the arrow to generate a side value (potentially infinite I'd say) and eat it at the same time
2024-08-28 15:12:15 +0000 <[exa]> I feel tempted to write fibs this way
2024-08-28 15:14:25 +0000yvan-sraka(uid419690@id-419690.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-08-28 15:14:37 +0000 <[exa]> constxd: ok let's see
2024-08-28 15:14:44 +0000 <[exa]> % loop f b = let (c,d) = f (b,d) in c
2024-08-28 15:14:44 +0000 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-08-28 15:15:15 +0000 <[exa]> % take 8 $ flip loop () $ \((), fibs) -> (fibs, 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs))
2024-08-28 15:15:15 +0000 <yahb2> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13]
2024-08-28 15:16:02 +0000 <dminuoso> constxd: (b, d) :=> (c, d) -> b :=> c
2024-08-28 15:16:41 +0000 <dminuoso> Sometimes its easier to visualize arrow (and other related types) if you imagine the type variable to be like `:=>` or maybe written in infix notation (b, d) `a` (c, d) -> b `a` c
2024-08-28 15:17:25 +0000 <[exa]> carbolymer: tbh might be time to ask in #ghc, the "fix" seems easy unless it breaks something else very horrendously
2024-08-28 15:17:55 +0000 <carbolymer> [exa]: thx
2024-08-28 15:17:58 +0000 <dminuoso> constxd: Further note the internal haddock comment https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1001.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Control.Arrow.html…
2024-08-28 15:17:58 +0000 <carbolymer> just did
2024-08-28 15:18:12 +0000 <[exa]> good luck :)
2024-08-28 15:20:07 +0000 <[exa]> dminuoso: kinda has prolog vibes with the `d` getting unified, like having `func(In1,In2,Out1,Out2)` and twisting it around with `func(B,D,C,D)`
2024-08-28 15:20:43 +0000 <[exa]> (kanren people rejoice)
2024-08-28 15:21:21 +0000 <dminuoso> The Kleisli instance feels a bit more interesting.
2024-08-28 15:24:37 +0000 <[exa]> uses of that are kinda beyond my imagination tho
2024-08-28 15:24:48 +0000comonad(~comonad@p54a0342e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2024-08-28 15:35:51 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-08-28 16:05:21 +0000 <EvanR> constxd, when modeling circuits with arrows, loop creates a loop back circuit. Without that you only have combinational logic
2024-08-28 16:05:41 +0000 <EvanR> what is means in other applications of arrow depends
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2024-08-28 16:12:30 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there a hindley-milner type interpreter somewhere? define types and type variables and get resulting inference
2024-08-28 16:12:38 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-08-28 16:14:44 +0000youthlic(~Thunderbi@user/youthlic) (Quit: youthlic)
2024-08-28 16:15:29 +0000 <byorgey> thirdofmay18081814goya: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hindley-milner-type-check ?
2024-08-28 16:16:29 +0000mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
2024-08-28 16:19:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> byorgey: neat! thanks
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2024-08-28 16:27:57 +0000CrunchyFlakes(~CrunchyFl@ip-109-42-114-71.web.vodafone.de)
2024-08-28 16:33:13 +0000aljazmc(~aljazmc@user/aljazmc)
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2024-08-28 16:50:37 +0000 <dminuoso> EvanR: I guess `loop` is sort of like half-a-fix.
2024-08-28 16:51:50 +0000 <dminuoso> An inverse of `second`
2024-08-28 16:54:44 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-08-28 16:59:39 +0000 <byorgey> https://wiki.haskell.org/Yampa#Primitive_signal_functions
2024-08-28 17:02:47 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-08-28 17:04:31 +0000manwithluck(manwithluc@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/manwithluck)
2024-08-28 17:05:59 +0000haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-08-28 17:06:58 +0000ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2024-08-28 17:07:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> myFunc2 val [x] = if x /= val then [x] else []
2024-08-28 17:07:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/HymUlGZdDMNxLouQHiwMJkfu (3 lines)
2024-08-28 17:07:46 +0000 <geekosaur> the start of that might have been lost, I was restarting docker for an update
2024-08-28 17:09:57 +0000 <geekosaur> (actually you're fine, matrix-side gets held and sent when the bot returns, it's irc that gets dropped but there wasn't any activity)
2024-08-28 17:10:23 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-08-28 17:13:08 +0000athan_(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-08-28 17:13:27 +0000Fooo(~Square@user/square)
2024-08-28 17:14:00 +0000 <EvanR> the internet duct tape held
2024-08-28 17:16:09 +0000 <monochrom> combinational logic : feedback circuit :: pure function : mutable state :)
2024-08-28 17:16:11 +0000Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-28 17:16:52 +0000 <[exa]> thirdofmay18081814goya byorgey: oh wow a nice package. Other than that, highly recommend to just smash one together in prolog, it's a 30 minute exercise with lots of edu value
2024-08-28 17:17:58 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-08-28 17:19:10 +0000raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
2024-08-28 17:20:13 +0000 <monochrom> in which 29 minutes are spent on just emulating haskell ADT by prolog function symbols. >:)
2024-08-28 17:21:00 +0000hc(~hc@mail.hce.li) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-08-28 17:25:56 +0000EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
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2024-08-28 17:37:29 +0000alexdarcy(63afa1753d@2a03:6000:1812:100::12da) ()
2024-08-28 17:41:43 +0000 <[exa]> monochrom: educative on all fronts!
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2024-08-28 18:08:02 +0000itaipu(~itaipu@168.121.98.169)
2024-08-28 18:09:13 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm
2024-08-28 18:09:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> how do I evaluate types with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/compare-type-0.1.1/docs/Type-Compare.html?
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2024-08-28 18:25:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> what do you mean with "evaluate"?
2024-08-28 18:26:07 +0000neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.161)
2024-08-28 18:27:51 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: how do I get "Compare LT LT" to produce "EQ"?
2024-08-28 18:28:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> is _is_ the same, i.e. if you write `Compare LT LT` in a Haskell file, then that will be the same as if you'd written `EQ` there
2024-08-28 18:28:36 +0000 <tomsmeding> but if you want to "see it happen": try `:k! Compare LT LT` in ghci
2024-08-28 18:29:18 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-08-28 18:30:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: ah! that's it, thanks!
2024-08-28 18:31:07 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: what exactly is the difference between ":k" and ":k!"? I see it clearly, but what is it doing?
2024-08-28 18:31:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-cmd-:kind
2024-08-28 18:32:19 +0000 <tomsmeding> there have been ghc versions where the ! didn't do anything; that regressed at some point and got fixed later again
2024-08-28 18:32:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> I believe that was before 9.0
2024-08-28 18:34:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: thanks a lot! had googled variations of "ghci commands"and never found this, or found results without"!` explanation
2024-08-28 18:34:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * commands" and never found this, or found results without"!\"
2024-08-28 18:34:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * without"!"
2024-08-28 18:34:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> hint: bookmark the GHC user guide, there's lots of good info in there :)
2024-08-28 18:35:04 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> will do
2024-08-28 18:35:09 +0000 <tomsmeding> in particular I've also bookmarked this page specifically https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html
2024-08-28 18:35:27 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2024-08-28 18:47:43 +0000neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.161)
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2024-08-28 19:03:59 +0000sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Quit: sourcetarius)
2024-08-28 19:04:21 +0000 <monochrom> I just use /usr/local/ghcup/ghc/9.4.8/share/doc/ghc-9.4.8/html/users_guide/index.html
2024-08-28 19:04:40 +0000 <monochrom> (I told ghcup to put itself in /usr/local instead of $HOME)
2024-08-28 19:06:47 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2024-08-28 19:17:22 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> [exa] re:prolog I definitely recommend trying to model every type system you care about in a logic lang (Prolog, miniKanren or anything similar), not just HM. I was actually doing a tool for this (using natural deduction syntax like in papers) but I got stuck in the "interpret pure prolog-like rules but with complete search and some constraints" part. An idea was to try to adapt miniKanren with interleaving search...
2024-08-28 19:17:28 +0000 <haskellbridge> ... and constraints into a static setting, but no idea how to do that
2024-08-28 19:18:12 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The other hard part was mixfix parsing, but I got a decent grammar distilled from the "Parsing mixfix expressions" paper. Fun stuff
2024-08-28 19:18:27 +0000 <[exa]> mixfix is fun
2024-08-28 19:19:32 +0000 <[exa]> I'm normally just parsing lists of whatever properly parenthesized first, and then run a shunting-yardish algorithm over that to actually resolve operators
2024-08-28 19:20:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Parsing it without bactracking dozens of times is a challenge, that's why I modified the algo in the paper to my preffered syntax conventions
2024-08-28 19:21:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I could drop all that into megaparsec and have a natural deduction (with actually natural syntax) parser, but I still can't do the "cooler prolog" part
2024-08-28 19:24:05 +0000ZharMeny(~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: have you tried logging out and back in?)
2024-08-28 19:24:15 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Unlike with prolog, miniKanren has straightforward and easily accesible algorithms for search and constraints. Most of what I could find on prolog was either too vague or unrelated to the implementation. So now I want to know how to those miniKanren algos statically
2024-08-28 19:26:18 +0000 <[exa]> yeah I want to learn enough kanren once to do something like so
2024-08-28 19:26:57 +0000 <[exa]> in prolog all the constrainty libraries are quite macro-heavy
2024-08-28 19:28:54 +0000 <[exa]> (macros as in term_expansion/2)
2024-08-28 19:33:10 +0000 <monochrom> I should learn miniKaren too. Prolog is becoming archaic and feeling like poorly designed.
2024-08-28 19:34:23 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ghc will throw an ambiguous variable error iff ":k! expression" has no normal form right?
2024-08-28 19:34:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> * implies
2024-08-28 19:35:10 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh i mean
2024-08-28 19:35:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> if ghc throws an ambiguous variable error then will follow that ":k! expression" has no normal form right?
2024-08-28 19:36:08 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh, "then it follows that ":k! expression" has not been resolved to a normal form..?
2024-08-28 19:36:21 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> what am I even saying
2024-08-28 19:37:37 +0000rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-08-28 19:38:01 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2024-08-28 19:38:10 +0000rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2024-08-28 19:38:13 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> : with respect to the annotation rules of the haskell type system, what rule produces the ambiguous type error?
2024-08-28 19:39:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> AFAIK when no rule allows GHC to instance a type variable when trying to evaluate an expression
2024-08-28 19:40:08 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> So it isn't a rule what triggers this, but rather the lack of them
2024-08-28 19:40:57 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> No wait that was when solving constraints
2024-08-28 19:41:11 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> It still about type variables though
2024-08-28 19:41:57 +0000ZharMeny(~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny)
2024-08-28 19:41:59 +0000 <geekosaur> I think you were right the first time. Constraints come into it as the primary means of instancing otherwise-unknown type variables
2024-08-28 19:42:07 +0000 <geekosaur> aiui
2024-08-28 19:44:12 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-08-28 19:44:21 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Why does "Nothing :: Maybe a" not toggle it but "empty :: Collection ce e -> ce" does (assuming Collection is a type class without fundeps representing, well, collections)?
2024-08-28 19:45:02 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Is it because it can't know what to execute until "e" is instanced?
2024-08-28 19:45:34 +0000 <geekosaur> I think so
2024-08-28 19:46:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> So the ambiguous variable error in kinds has a similar origin
2024-08-28 19:46:29 +0000 <monochrom> Monomorphism restriction disallows "var = expr" to have a type-class-polymorphic type.
2024-08-28 19:46:30 +0000 <geekosaur> also, under what circumstances? I think ghci has extended typing rules that allow Nothing and [] to be typed, but won't work for something like Collection?
2024-08-28 19:46:55 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The trick here is probably defaulting
2024-08-28 19:47:29 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Specially if there isn't an instance for "Collection [something] ()"
2024-08-28 19:47:46 +0000 <geekosaur> (ExtendedDefaultRules, which you can turn on for compiled programs but is disrecommended there)
2024-08-28 19:48:50 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099)
2024-08-28 19:49:18 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> If normal form evaluation doesn't halt at the type level in any language you either get a "max recursion depth exceeded" (like with type classes) or compilation never fails to terminate. Not sure which one does GHC but it likely is one of those
2024-08-28 19:58:51 +0000 <[exa]> thirdofmay18081814goya: iirc ambiguity errors were normally triggered when a forall binds an unused variable, e.g. `show . read :: (Read a, Show a) => String -> String`. (Normally that would get defaulted to ().)
2024-08-28 20:00:41 +0000 <[exa]> (in your previous examples, `Nothing :: forall a. Maybe a` is perfectly okay, but the other thing lacks the knowledge of `e`
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2024-08-28 20:10:37 +0000ZharMeny(~ZharMeny@user/ZharMeny)
2024-08-28 20:13:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> Bowugi: thirdofmay: type class constraints can result in ambiguity errors because a type class constraint is an _implicit argument_: if you have a function `foo :: Collection ce e => ce`, then that `Collection ce e` part is an _argument_ of foo
2024-08-28 20:13:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> but it's not an argument that you supply: GHC infers what the argument should be, and supplies it for you
2024-08-28 20:13:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> but that means that GHC must be able to figure out what it should pass!
2024-08-28 20:15:18 +0000 <tomsmeding> and that means that the type variables must be instantiated _enough_ that precisely one instance matches; when that is so, GHC knows it should take that instance dictionary (a record containing the definitions of the class methods in that instance) and pass it for you
2024-08-28 20:16:40 +0000 <tomsmeding> well, either that, or there must be some other place for GHC to get that implicit argument from; if that `foo` was called inside some other function (say `bar`) that itself has a constraint, then GHC can use the implicit argument of `bar` to pass as the implicit argument to `foo`
2024-08-28 20:16:52 +0000 <tomsmeding> this is a very operational way of seeing things, but I find it helpful
2024-08-28 20:17:38 +0000 <EvanR> this story makes typeclass constraints sound like implicit parameters
2024-08-28 20:17:58 +0000 <EvanR> meanwhile there's another feature which is literally called implicit parameters, and I'm wondering what the difference is
2024-08-28 20:18:17 +0000 <[exa]> EvanR: wasn't there a library that actually implemented this
2024-08-28 20:18:25 +0000 <[exa]> I'd say acme-something
2024-08-28 20:18:58 +0000 <geekosaur> EvanR, not much aiui
2024-08-28 20:19:11 +0000 <geekosaur> they even use constraint syntax
2024-08-28 20:19:45 +0000Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-08-28 20:20:10 +0000Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se)
2024-08-28 20:22:35 +0000 <tomsmeding> EvanR: -XImplicitParams implicit parameters you can override manually
2024-08-28 20:22:39 +0000 <dmj`> Bowuigi: are you working on implementing LSS in Haskell
2024-08-28 20:22:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> you can't provide a local overriding instance
2024-08-28 20:22:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> (well, you can with `withDict`, but that's black magic)
2024-08-28 20:23:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> hence, conversely, type classes give you confluence whereas implicit parameters don't
2024-08-28 20:23:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> dmj` not yet, I have to actually make a lang before that lol
2024-08-28 20:24:09 +0000 <dmj`> Bowuigi: you can start bottom up, why not
2024-08-28 20:25:16 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Because I want the lang itself rather than the optimization
2024-08-28 20:25:51 +0000 <dmj`> well you'll need both eventually, plus the elaboration will take 100% of the time
2024-08-28 20:26:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Roc implements both LSS and Perceus if you want to see it in action ASAP. Not Haskell but close enough
2024-08-28 20:26:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Koka and Lean both implement Perceus but not LSS. Morphic implements both
2024-08-28 20:27:17 +0000 <dmj`> Bowuigi: I think Roc wants to use it, but doesn't, https://github.com/roc-lang/roc/issues/5969
2024-08-28 20:27:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> thanks a lot for all the comments! very helpful stuff
2024-08-28 20:27:40 +0000 <dmj`> I don't think those languages have package managers either
2024-08-28 20:27:50 +0000 <dmj`> maybe Lean does
2024-08-28 20:28:15 +0000arahael(~arahael@user/arahael) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-28 20:29:28 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> dmj` Roc doesn't have it at the type level, but it is present at the value level (it's on the main page as well)
2024-08-28 20:32:40 +0000alioguzhan(~Thunderbi@78.173.89.238)
2024-08-28 20:32:45 +0000 <dmj`> hmm, unless you're accumulating the lambda sets as part of the type system, I don't think you have it
2024-08-28 20:33:53 +0000 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also Lean has lake (a package manager) IIRC
2024-08-28 20:34:31 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.215) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-08-28 20:38:02 +0000 <dmj`> Bowuigi: does Lean allow for cyclic data structures? I think this ref. counting technique requires the heap to be a DAG. Or something fancy is going on
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2024-08-28 21:12:58 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> do people use something else than a small anonymous function for this? "(\x f -> f x) val lambdaCaseExpression"?
2024-08-28 21:13:15 +0000 <tomsmeding> :t (&)
2024-08-28 21:13:16 +0000 <lambdabot> a -> (a -> b) -> b
2024-08-28 21:13:20 +0000 <tomsmeding> (Data.Function)
2024-08-28 21:13:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> but I tend to just 'case val of' ;)
2024-08-28 21:17:06 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> neato ty!
2024-08-28 21:17:16 +0000alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3213-485a-19d1-8cee-281e-732c.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-08-28 21:17:21 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: might have multiple arguments hehe
2024-08-28 21:17:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-28 21:17:48 +0000 <mauke> :t flip id
2024-08-28 21:17:49 +0000 <lambdabot> b -> (b -> c) -> c
2024-08-28 21:18:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> ($) = id
2024-08-28 21:18:39 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2024-08-28 21:19:11 +0000 <mauke> :t [id, ($), ask, asks]
2024-08-28 21:19:12 +0000 <lambdabot> [(a -> b) -> a -> b]
2024-08-28 21:21:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-08-28 21:22:43 +0000 <tomsmeding> :t ask `fmap` id
2024-08-28 21:22:44 +0000 <lambdabot> b -> b
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2024-08-28 22:04:08 +0000 <dmj`> Bowuigi: I bet lambda sets could be added to Haskell syntax, then you could just desugar into a first order language
2024-08-28 22:08:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-28 22:09:23 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> can I check whether a type is a subtype of another in the repl?
2024-08-28 22:09:59 +0000 <geekosaur> last I checked Haskell didn't have subtypes
2024-08-28 22:10:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: isn't "Functor f => f Int" a subtype of "Maybe Int"?
2024-08-28 22:10:59 +0000 <davean> No but it does unify.
2024-08-28 22:11:08 +0000 <geekosaur> type theoretically, but Haskell is not type theory
2024-08-28 22:12:02 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> davean: is there a way to check whether two types unify?
2024-08-28 22:12:26 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: hm right
2024-08-28 22:16:07 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-08-28 22:17:27 +0000 <davean> thirdofmay18081814goya: Thats exactly what type checking is.
2024-08-28 22:19:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-28 22:25:36 +0000 <EvanR> can you construct a Functor f => f Int ?
2024-08-28 22:25:58 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2024-08-28 22:34:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-28 22:38:17 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> we can get something like that by using
2024-08-28 22:38:17 +0000 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/syRpstTSDKPDUYCofoigqgqd (3 lines)
2024-08-28 22:38:51 +0000 <EvanR> well that is something else
2024-08-28 22:39:04 +0000 <EvanR> there you are hypothesizing it exists
2024-08-28 22:39:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-28 22:39:19 +0000 <EvanR> if someone gives it to you what could be done with it
2024-08-28 22:39:33 +0000 <EvanR> but doesn't address how to really create it
2024-08-28 22:39:43 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right I'm stating it exists and the compiler should tell me whether I've stated a contradiction
2024-08-28 22:39:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> on the type-level
2024-08-28 22:39:56 +0000 <EvanR> no...
2024-08-28 22:40:12 +0000 <EvanR> hypothetical arguments are valid
2024-08-28 22:40:34 +0000 <EvanR> e.g. id :: Void -> Void, not an error
2024-08-28 22:40:49 +0000son0p(~ff@186.121.18.131)
2024-08-28 22:42:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> whoops I meant
2024-08-28 22:42:36 +0000 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/pBYplRwmwndSGsCIaLsIlPRZ (3 lines)
2024-08-28 22:43:34 +0000 <EvanR> that's the same thing
2024-08-28 22:43:42 +0000 <EvanR> equivalent
2024-08-28 22:43:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> no this one actually typechecks
2024-08-28 22:44:27 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> the other one was "haskell f :: forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)"
2024-08-28 22:44:59 +0000 <EvanR> oh
2024-08-28 22:45:27 +0000 <EvanR> ok within the context, unknown f can't be proved equal to Maybe
2024-08-28 22:48:12 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> am a bit puzzled about their relationship however, the one with "f :: (forall f. Functor f => f Int) -> Maybe Int" does have the desired behaviour of telling us when the types unify but I don't understand why. I do understand that "f :: forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)" with "f = id" is saying that ALL functors taking "Int" unify with "Maybe Int", which is false and doesn't typecheck
2024-08-28 22:49:19 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> whoops meant to use different symbols for the function and the functor
2024-08-28 22:49:59 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-28 22:50:31 +0000 <ncf> id :: A → B iff you can implicitly coerce an A into a B iff A is a subtype of B. not rocket science
2024-08-28 22:50:53 +0000 <EvanR> the first one uses higher order polymorphism
2024-08-28 22:51:08 +0000 <ncf> well A and B stand for polytypes here
2024-08-28 22:53:41 +0000 <EvanR> anyway my intuition says you can't possibly create a forall f . Functor f => f Int
2024-08-28 22:53:42 +0000 <EvanR> xD
2024-08-28 22:54:21 +0000 <dolio> Pick f = Const Void
2024-08-28 22:55:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-28 22:55:03 +0000 <ncf> the first-order one tells you that, in context (f : Type, Functor f), f Int is not a subtype of Maybe Int
2024-08-28 22:56:39 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: which one is the first-order one?
2024-08-28 22:56:53 +0000 <ncf> the one that's not higher-order
2024-08-28 22:57:11 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: why does "[Int]" fail?
2024-08-28 22:59:17 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-08-28 22:59:38 +0000 <EvanR> that's either not a value or is a string
2024-08-28 23:00:30 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: need a couple of keywords to read up on this, is the technical term "first-order polymorphism" vs "higher-order polymorphism"?
2024-08-28 23:00:52 +0000 <ncf> higher-rank is more common
2024-08-28 23:00:57 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: ah right I understand what you meant now
2024-08-28 23:03:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: ok i see thanks! and we say "(forall f. Functor f => f Int) -> Maybe Int" uses higher-rank polymorphism while "forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)" involves a rank 1 type instead?
2024-08-28 23:04:30 +0000 <ncf> yes
2024-08-28 23:04:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> great thanks a lot!
2024-08-28 23:05:25 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-28 23:21:55 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm any good references on rank 1 types and higher-rank polymorphism? books covering these maybe
2024-08-28 23:25:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-08-28 23:27:54 +0000poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-08-28 23:29:21 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tapl i think
2024-08-28 23:29:53 +0000poscat(~poscat@user/poscat)
2024-08-28 23:30:13 +0000 <glguy> are you wanting to know what it is or how to implement it?
2024-08-28 23:30:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> glguy: what it is and why it produces different results wrt the typechecker
2024-08-28 23:31:50 +0000 <glguy> have you already seen this? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/rank_polymorphism.html#arbitrary-ra…
2024-08-28 23:32:26 +0000 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> glguy: no! will be reading this, thanks a lot
2024-08-28 23:36:16 +0000merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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