2024/04/28

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2024-04-28 00:23:11 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-28 00:25:10 +0200 <dolio> ski gave the right answer. :þ
2024-04-28 00:27:17 +0200orcus-(~orcus@host-78-146-88-32.as13285.net)
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2024-04-28 00:37:39 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-28 00:37:52 +0200 <yin> huh?
2024-04-28 00:38:06 +0200 <yin> what is that list?
2024-04-28 00:38:41 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@47.229.123.186) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 00:38:48 +0200 <yin> is it just concurrent output or something else?
2024-04-28 00:41:05 +0200 <dolio> You can think of it as concurrency where the scheduling gets informed by the lazy evaluation.
2024-04-28 00:41:47 +0200 <dolio> When you need something, your thread gets interrupted and the one that was supposed to calculate it runs instead.
2024-04-28 00:42:12 +0200 <yin> got it
2024-04-28 00:45:16 +0200 <geekosaur> unprincipled coroutines
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2024-04-28 00:57:57 +0200 <monochrom> Consider do { x <- unsafeInterleaveIO (writeIORef v 5 >> pure ()); y <- unsafeInterleaveIO (writeIORef v 6 >> pure ()) ; ... }
2024-04-28 00:59:08 +0200 <monochrom> Now v will be 5 or 6 or unchanged at unknown future times depending on when will x or y or neither is evaluated.
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2024-04-28 02:03:19 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-04-28 02:04:37 +0200 <EvanR> you could use IVar in the story. the value you get back from executing the unsafeInterleaveIO action could be an IVar behind the scenes. And some thread is responsible for doing the i/o and writing the IVar
2024-04-28 02:07:07 +0200 <smogeb> what's the best book to write a interpreter (that is not scheme) ??
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2024-04-28 02:11:26 +0200 <dolio> EvanR: Right, exactly.
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2024-04-28 06:31:48 +0200 <ski> @hackage ivar-simple
2024-04-28 06:31:48 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ivar-simple
2024-04-28 06:31:49 +0200 <ski> @hackage data-ivar
2024-04-28 06:31:50 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-ivar
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2024-04-28 08:24:13 +0200famubu(~julinuser@user/famubu)
2024-04-28 08:25:22 +0200 <famubu> Hi. I had been trying to use megaparsec. I was trying use `satisfy` to accept a single upper-case ascii character. So I tried `satisfy Data.Char.isUpper` but that didn't work. The required type mentions `Token`.
2024-04-28 08:41:11 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
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2024-04-28 09:17:10 +0200 <[exa]> famubu: what is your parser type? might be the case you are using an overly generic satisfy, or that your stream is not directly compatible with Char (might happen if you parse from bytestrings or so)
2024-04-28 09:18:18 +0200 <[exa]> (if that's the case, I'd say there is a bytestring-compatible variant of isUpper somewhere)
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2024-04-28 10:12:16 +0200 <famubu> [exa]: Sorry, I just had to add an explicit type annotation. It somehow worked with that.
2024-04-28 10:13:16 +0200 <famubu> Now I'm trying to find an upto date tutorial for megaparsec. The official one mentions setting up an operator table with `Operator` type, but can't find that type at all in latest megaparsec repo..
2024-04-28 10:13:32 +0200 <famubu> Or maybe I'm not looking at the right place.
2024-04-28 10:16:25 +0200 <famubu> There seems to be no `import Text.Megaparsec.Expr` in the new megaparsec.
2024-04-28 10:16:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> seems to be gone since 6.0.0
2024-04-28 10:16:54 +0200 <famubu> Yeah.. I was wondering what to use in place of it.
2024-04-28 10:16:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/Control-Monad-Combinators-Expr.h…
2024-04-28 10:17:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> megaparsec was reorganised to depend on `parser-combinators` where most of the higher-level API comes from
2024-04-28 10:18:36 +0200 <famubu> Thanks! Let me try that.
2024-04-28 10:19:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> not sure if the API is _exactly_ the same as in the tutorial you found, but at least it's the same idea
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2024-04-28 10:39:45 +0200 <[exa]> famubu: ok so that was likely an ambiguity killing it
2024-04-28 10:41:04 +0200 <[exa]> famubu: re the tutorial, there was a repo with relatively up-to-date examples somewhere (as in, there was a .cabal file and it compiled), I used that for reference
2024-04-28 10:41:40 +0200 <[exa]> (aaaaaaand I can't find it.)
2024-04-28 10:44:48 +0200Rodney_(~Rodney@176.254.244.83) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 10:46:05 +0200 <[exa]> ._.
2024-04-28 10:46:44 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2024-04-28 10:50:18 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 11:00:02 +0200Rodney_(~Rodney@176.254.244.83)
2024-04-28 11:00:54 +0200poscat0x04(~poscat@user/poscat) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-28 11:02:49 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-28 11:09:25 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 11:10:46 +0200poscat(~poscat@user/poscat)
2024-04-28 11:14:36 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 11:38:47 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 11:40:58 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-68.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)
2024-04-28 11:52:47 +0200 <yin> assuming no language extensions other that the default ones, when are type annotations used in pattern matching?
2024-04-28 11:53:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> ScopedTypeVariables is in GHC2021 (if that's what you mean with "the default ones")
2024-04-28 11:54:24 +0200mima(~mmh@eduroam-pool4-264.wlan.uni-bremen.de)
2024-04-28 11:55:29 +0200 <yin> when do we use type annotations in pattern matching with it?
2024-04-28 11:55:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think it's never actually necessary
2024-04-28 11:56:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it can be helpful, in my experience, in two cases: 1. you want some kind of type annotation on a lambda function but are too lazy to make it a let-defined thing with a type signature
2024-04-28 11:56:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> so you just write (x :: Int) as the argument or something
2024-04-28 11:57:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> or 2. the argument's type has some instantiation of a type variable in it that you need on the type level, and you could get via other means but that would be very cumbersome
2024-04-28 11:57:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> and with ScopedTypeVariables you can bring that thing into scope with a type annotation in a pattern
2024-04-28 11:57:31 +0200 <yin> hmm
2024-04-28 11:57:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> note that type annotations in patterns are just that -- type _annotations_, they don't influence pattern matching, they can only constrain the overall type of the function or bring type variables into scope
2024-04-28 11:58:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> you can't pattern match on types in haskell
2024-04-28 11:58:23 +0200 <yin> in the first case, isn't it always inferred by the type system anyways?
2024-04-28 11:58:25 +0200 <famubu> Type annototaion had a 'type equivalence' thing from Token to Char. That had made the error go away. As in `Token ~ Char`
2024-04-28 11:58:40 +0200 <famubu> I'm sure I'm not using the right term here..
2024-04-28 11:58:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: a typical example of (1.) is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/Control-Exception.html#v:catch
2024-04-28 11:59:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> you need that e to infer to something specific, usually, and the body of the lambda is typically not enough for that
2024-04-28 11:59:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> famubu: that would be a type equality
2024-04-28 11:59:49 +0200 <famubu> [exa]: 🥴
2024-04-28 11:59:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> famubu: was the error something like "Cannot match type Foo a with Foo a0"?
2024-04-28 11:59:59 +0200 <famubu> tomsmeding: 👍
2024-04-28 12:00:09 +0200 <famubu> Yeah.
2024-04-28 12:00:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> right, that's an ambiguity error
2024-04-28 12:00:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> where ghc sees that your expression is polymorphic, but for some reason (typically a good one in general) it doesn't quite want to just infer that polymorphic type
2024-04-28 12:01:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> perhaps because the polymorphism is constrained in some weird way
2024-04-28 12:01:14 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: where's the type annotation on pattern matching in 'catch'?
2024-04-28 12:01:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> so then ghc asks you to say precisely what you mean -- some specific instantiation, or an actual polymorphic type where it's then on you to write down what ghc should do
2024-04-28 12:01:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: do you see the `(e :: IOException)` in the example in the haddocks?
2024-04-28 12:02:08 +0200 <yin> yes
2024-04-28 12:02:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> you typically have to manually constrain e somehow, and having to do that on some occurrence in the body is kind of clunky
2024-04-28 12:02:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's nicer to write `catch _ (\(e :: IOException) -> ...)`
2024-04-28 12:02:51 +0200 <yin> oh i see
2024-04-28 12:03:10 +0200 <int-e> tomsmeding: oh the cloudatacost.com fan page is gone, so sad. https://web.archive.org/web/20220811231349/https://cloudatacost.com/mystory/original-story-2014
2024-04-28 12:03:26 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:03:38 +0200 <yin> somehow i don't consider that to be patter matching. it's just like
2024-04-28 12:03:43 +0200 <yin> > minBound :: Int
2024-04-28 12:03:45 +0200 <lambdabot> -9223372036854775808
2024-04-28 12:03:52 +0200 <int-e> (wrong channel)
2024-04-28 12:04:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: indeed, it's a type annotation that you can put in a convenient spot
2024-04-28 12:05:36 +0200mima(~mmh@eduroam-pool4-264.wlan.uni-bremen.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-28 12:07:19 +0200 <ski> "I think it's never actually necessary" -- introducing a type variable for an opened existential
2024-04-28 12:08:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> you could also write a helper function that you pass your matched things to
2024-04-28 12:08:34 +0200mima(~mmh@eduroam-pool4-264.wlan.uni-bremen.de)
2024-04-28 12:08:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> that helper function could have a type signature from which you can get your type variables with ScopedTypeVariables
2024-04-28 12:08:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's a workaround to be sure
2024-04-28 12:09:28 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:12:32 +0200 <yin> i guess my question is: do we really need the ability to annotate on the function head?
2024-04-28 12:12:47 +0200 <yin> or is it just a convenience
2024-04-28 12:12:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> what does "function head" mean?
2024-04-28 12:12:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> a type annotation in a pattern?
2024-04-28 12:12:59 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: left of the = on a function definition
2024-04-28 12:13:02 +0200 <yin> or |
2024-04-28 12:13:12 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:13:13 +0200 <yin> i man
2024-04-28 12:13:13 +0200 <ski> the definiendum of the defining equation
2024-04-28 12:13:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's never strictly necessary, but can be very convenient in some cases
2024-04-28 12:13:15 +0200 <yin> *i mean
2024-04-28 12:13:21 +0200 <yin> forget the |
2024-04-28 12:13:46 +0200 <ski> .. i miss the ability to put a type ascription on the whole definiendum
2024-04-28 12:13:56 +0200 <yin> ski: wdym?
2024-04-28 12:14:13 +0200 <ski> map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) :: [b] = case xs0 of ...
2024-04-28 12:14:23 +0200 <ski> the ` :: [b]' there, specifically
2024-04-28 12:14:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> at that point just write a type signature :p
2024-04-28 12:14:41 +0200 <yin> we can't do that anymore?
2024-04-28 12:15:16 +0200 <yin> foo :: Bool = True -- works just fin
2024-04-28 12:15:21 +0200 <yin> e
2024-04-28 12:15:23 +0200 <ski> yea, but i'd rather have the option to express a full signature in this style, in addition to the usual separate type signature. rather than *almost*, but not quite, being able to do this
2024-04-28 12:15:35 +0200 <ski> yea, but that only works for pattern bindings, yin
2024-04-28 12:15:46 +0200 <ski> unlike in the MLs, where this works just fine
2024-04-28 12:16:02 +0200 <yin> i see
2024-04-28 12:16:55 +0200 <ski> (otoh, the MLs doesn't have separate type signatures, interleaved with implementation. you can only put those in signatures (/ module types))
2024-04-28 12:18:02 +0200 <ski> iow, i'd prefer to be given the choice of using the usual type signatures, or a more C-style mixed definiendum & type ascriptions. (or both, or neither)
2024-04-28 12:18:14 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:18:35 +0200mima(~mmh@eduroam-pool4-264.wlan.uni-bremen.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-28 12:19:12 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:19:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> you're right, for functions with many arguments it would sometimes be nice to be able to interleave the types with the argument names
2024-04-28 12:19:24 +0200 <ski> (i'd also like the above to be able to bind tyvars `a' and `b', without a separate type signature. as, iirc, `PatternSignatures' originally allowed, but the current `ScopedTypeVariables' doesn't. but that's a separate issue)
2024-04-28 12:19:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> wait it doesn't?
2024-04-28 12:19:54 +0200 <yin> also news t ome
2024-04-28 12:20:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess it only does if the body already inferred to the annotated types?
2024-04-28 12:21:13 +0200 <ski> hm. maybe they changed it so it works, now ?
2024-04-28 12:21:35 +0200 <ski> > let map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) = (case xs0 of [] -> []; x:xs -> f x : map f xs) :: [b] in map (^ 2) [2,3,5,7]
2024-04-28 12:21:36 +0200 <lambdabot> [4,9,25,49]
2024-04-28 12:21:38 +0200 <ski> > let map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) :: [b] = case xs0 of [] -> []; x:xs -> f x : map f xs in map (^ 2) [2,3,5,7]
2024-04-28 12:21:39 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: map
2024-04-28 12:22:15 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2024-04-28 12:22:16 +0200 <yin> awful error message :p
2024-04-28 12:23:27 +0200Square(~Square@user/square)
2024-04-28 12:24:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://play.haskell.org/saved/AwWkZI0A
2024-04-28 12:24:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: were you talking about the foo0 behaviour?
2024-04-28 12:24:27 +0200 <ski> i'm pretty sure the former (or another example that also tested the same thing) also didn't work, at some point
2024-04-28 12:24:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> in your last parenthetical
2024-04-28 12:25:43 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:26:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> to be honest I'm kind of surprised that foo3 doesn't work; I'm not sure what to expect with foo0
2024-04-28 12:26:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> and I'm even more surprised that foo1 works but foo3 doesn't
2024-04-28 12:26:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah no I'm not surprised about foo3
2024-04-28 12:27:28 +0200 <yin> do we need existential type applications? :p
2024-04-28 12:27:29 +0200 <ski> hm, there's no raw link at that page ?
2024-04-28 12:27:35 +0200 <ski> yes, yin
2024-04-28 12:27:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> in fact, if you change the called function (in the body) to foo2 everywhere, all cases work, even foo0
2024-04-28 12:28:07 +0200 <yin> @(forall a. a)
2024-04-28 12:28:07 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2024-04-28 12:28:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> so ski your last "that's a separate issue" parenthetical seems to be false
2024-04-28 12:28:25 +0200 <ski> that would be impredicative, not existential, yin
2024-04-28 12:28:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> you _do_ bind a and b that way
2024-04-28 12:28:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> and indeed, there's no raw link at that page; would you want one ski?
2024-04-28 12:29:19 +0200ph88(~ph88@ip5b403f30.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-28 12:29:24 +0200 <ski> yea, i tested in GHCi (just before i asked lambdabot), and concluded it worked (also testing whether `map' here was actually polymorphic, by applying it at different types), and so concluding it must not have worked at some point, and later got fixed
2024-04-28 12:29:43 +0200 <yin> ski: right
2024-04-28 12:30:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> my playground example works back to 8.4.4 :p
2024-04-28 12:30:05 +0200 <ski> it would be useful, sure, tomsmeding. i very commonly open pastes in terminal browser (without Javascript)
2024-04-28 12:30:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah!
2024-04-28 12:30:46 +0200 <ski> (atm i just rebooted $GRAPHICAL_BROWSER, since it was lagging and not responding. only just done so that i can check out the page in it)
2024-04-28 12:31:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> where should I put the link though, suggestions?
2024-04-28 12:31:24 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:31:31 +0200 <ski> (another reason to open in terminal browser is so i can access the session, running under GNU Screen, from elsewhere. this also works with X forwarding of images (which W3m can display))
2024-04-28 12:31:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> heh opening the playground in elinks gives absolutely nothing useful
2024-04-28 12:32:24 +0200 <ski> maybe beside the "Save & share code" button ?
2024-04-28 12:32:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> would it be acceptable if I put the "raw" link there only if there is no javascript?
2024-04-28 12:33:15 +0200 <ski> well, opening it in W3m shows me the buttons (but they are not clickable, unlike other buttons on many pages), and doesn't show the source at all (neither readable, or with garbled formatting, as some paste sites do)
2024-04-28 12:33:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you open the playground without JS it's completely nonfunctional anyway, even in a state-of-the-art graphical browser
2024-04-28 12:34:05 +0200Guest83(~Guest83@79.113.204.176)
2024-04-28 12:34:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> I don't think it's worth the effort to make it work better in a no-JS environment, but I now see that having a "raw" link would be terribly useful in that case, so I'll add that
2024-04-28 12:34:35 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:34:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm just thinking to hide that link if there is JS so that it doesn't clutter the UI for the majority of users, only for those for whom it would help
2024-04-28 12:35:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> (with working JS you get the source with just select-all, copy)
2024-04-28 12:36:21 +0200 <ski> "that's a separate issue" referred to it being separate from the issue being able to put a type ascription on the whole definiendum (as well as to name tyvars in opened existentials, for that matter)
2024-04-28 12:36:56 +0200Guest83(~Guest83@79.113.204.176) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 12:39:12 +0200 <ski> "would it be acceptable if I put the "raw" link there only if there is no javascript?" -- okay, i guess, if you think it clutters the interface up too much otherwise ? (i suppose i'd prefer to have the link, regardless, so i don't have to hunt through the page source for it, if i'd like to e.g. download (e.g. with accurate timestamp, if available) or link directly to the raw text. but having it available if
2024-04-28 12:39:18 +0200 <ski> there's no Javascript is the more annoying thing)
2024-04-28 12:39:28 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-007-168-231.176.7.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:39:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> what do you mean with "with accurate timestamp"?
2024-04-28 12:39:46 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@2a02:810a:b00:1568:71f7:8ec:15a3:342f)
2024-04-28 12:40:46 +0200 <ski> (i sometimes check out the raw link, or do such hunting through the page source, for other paste sites. enough that i've started to memorize the URL pattern for it in some cases, and immediately modify the given paste link before loading it in browser)
2024-04-28 12:41:42 +0200 <ski> i mean that if i `wget' the raw (or "download") source link, i get a timestamp on the downloaded file that represents when the paste was made, rather than when i downloaded it. not all sites are configured to give this information, though
2024-04-28 12:42:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh interesting, I would indeed have forgotten that
2024-04-28 12:42:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> or, rather, not thought about that at all
2024-04-28 12:42:42 +0200 <ski> "I now see that having a \"raw\" link would be terribly useful in that case, so I'll add that" -- great, thanks a bunch
2024-04-28 12:43:46 +0200 <ski> (s/the more annoying thing/the more annoying case/)
2024-04-28 12:45:11 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:48:27 +0200 <ski> (incidentally, having the page display when the paste was made, would also be useful info, imho)
2024-04-28 12:48:47 +0200 <Rembane> +1
2024-04-28 12:48:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> where in the UI
2024-04-28 12:49:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> considering that the UI should still make some sense if the window is not terribly wide
2024-04-28 12:49:32 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2024-04-28 12:49:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> (there is already a UI bug where there is a range of window widths where the top bar doesn't fit but doesn't scroll yet)
2024-04-28 12:49:55 +0200 <ski> top is already a bar with some elements. could display it in there ? or, i guess, maybe could make a pop-up for some stuff, if reasonable
2024-04-28 12:49:58 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-28 12:50:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> (oh that bug is trivially fixable)
2024-04-28 12:50:38 +0200 <ski> does it display the GHC output below, if the window's not wide enough ?
2024-04-28 12:50:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> yes
2024-04-28 12:50:54 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:50:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> it switches to a vertical stack below 800px width
2024-04-28 12:51:10 +0200 <ski> *nod*
2024-04-28 12:51:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> (had to choose some value)
2024-04-28 12:52:04 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 12:52:26 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2024-04-28 12:53:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> can somebody tell me why cabal does not consider 1.0 >= 1.0.0
2024-04-28 12:53:46 +0200 <int-e> > [1,0] >= [1,0,0]
2024-04-28 12:53:47 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-04-28 12:54:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> hm I guess
2024-04-28 12:55:23 +0200 <yin> > [0] >= [0,0]
2024-04-28 12:55:25 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-04-28 12:55:30 +0200 <yin> > [] >= [0]
2024-04-28 12:55:31 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-04-28 12:55:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> > [1] >= repeat 0
2024-04-28 12:55:45 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2024-04-28 12:56:57 +0200 <yin> > [0] >= [0,undefined]
2024-04-28 12:56:58 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2024-04-28 12:57:54 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0 - https://znc.in)
2024-04-28 12:58:02 +0200 <ski> > [0] >= 0:undefined
2024-04-28 12:58:03 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-04-28 12:58:09 +0200 <ski> > [0] <= 0:undefined
2024-04-28 12:58:11 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
2024-04-28 12:58:35 +0200 <yin> int-e: is it clear now?
2024-04-28 12:58:42 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2024-04-28 12:58:53 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 12:59:06 +0200 <int-e> yin: that wasn't a question
2024-04-28 12:59:18 +0200 <ski> (it was an answer)
2024-04-28 12:59:35 +0200 <yin> lol i need to wake up
2024-04-28 12:59:41 +0200rosco(~rosco@yp-146-6.tm.net.my)
2024-04-28 13:01:11 +0200 <yin> goog conversation nontheless
2024-04-28 13:01:16 +0200 <yin> *good
2024-04-28 13:01:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: that would be the Last-Modified http header, right?
2024-04-28 13:01:40 +0200 <int-e> ski: I guess [] <= undefined *could* be defined but the report defines everything in terms of `compare` and [] `compare` undefined has to be bottom
2024-04-28 13:01:48 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!)
2024-04-28 13:01:48 +0200 <ski> sounds relevant, tomsmeding
2024-04-28 13:02:13 +0200 <ski> int-e : yea, was just thinking about that, in relation to ordering on `Nat'
2024-04-28 13:02:23 +0200qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-28 13:04:11 +0200 <ski> (well, i guess it's called `Natural' .. but lambdabot doesn't have that loaded, anymore, afaik)
2024-04-28 13:04:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> inductive peano nats?
2024-04-28 13:04:46 +0200 <ski> yes
2024-04-28 13:04:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> there are none in base and I'm salty about that
2024-04-28 13:05:34 +0200 <ski> it was nice to showcase things like `genericLength xs == (0 :: Natural)', also for infinite `xs'
2024-04-28 13:06:06 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( length' = map (const ()) )
2024-04-28 13:06:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> there is a Natural in base (in Numeric.Natural) but it's just an unsigned 'Integer'
2024-04-28 13:06:34 +0200 <int-e> (yes, I seem to be circling back to where ski started)
2024-04-28 13:10:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> (random fact: already 6378 saved snippets on the playground)
2024-04-28 13:10:37 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-04-28 13:12:08 +0200 <ncf> length = void
2024-04-28 13:13:30 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 13:13:48 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0 - https://znc.in)
2024-04-28 13:13:59 +0200 <ncf> https://i.imgflip.com/8oapr0.jpg
2024-04-28 13:14:46 +0200skiclicked on the "Save & share code" buttom, expected it to pop up some modal window, clicked again when that didn't happen quickly
2024-04-28 13:17:42 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
2024-04-28 13:18:40 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2024-04-28 13:18:49 +0200gospy(~gospy@127.77.178.217.shared.user.transix.jp)
2024-04-28 13:19:25 +0200gospy(~gospy@127.77.178.217.shared.user.transix.jp) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 13:20:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: was it just slow?
2024-04-28 13:20:31 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 13:22:01 +0200 <ski> no, it just surprised me, didn't do what i expected, instead just changed the URL (but the page appeared exactly the same, so i didn't notice that immediately)
2024-04-28 13:22:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah I see
2024-04-28 13:22:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> you're supposed to get a dialog though
2024-04-28 13:22:32 +0200 <ski> ah
2024-04-28 13:22:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it's a <dialog>, what browser are you using?
2024-04-28 13:22:46 +0200 <ski> this was Firefox
2024-04-28 13:22:55 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2024-04-28 13:23:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> (currently trying to get 'time' to give me something that fits the Last-Modified header spec, which **requires** "GMT" for some reason)
2024-04-28 13:23:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: I get this in firefox https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/Th06hE
2024-04-28 13:24:48 +0200 <ski> right. no such thing, just replacing the URL with that new one
2024-04-28 13:25:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> that sounds like a bug; any errors in the JS console?
2024-04-28 13:27:01 +0200 <ski> dunno whether "Block pop-up windows" (enabled) in <about:preferences#privacy> would affect this
2024-04-28 13:27:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> I would expect not
2024-04-28 13:27:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> I have that checkbox set too
2024-04-28 13:30:08 +0200 <ski> Uncaught TypeError: dialog.showModal is not a function doSave https://play.haskell.org/play-index.js:189 onreadystatechange https://play.haskell.org/play-index.js:59
2024-04-28 13:30:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> thank you!
2024-04-28 13:31:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> that line number looks wrong, but whatever I guess (it's on line 189)
2024-04-28 13:31:18 +0200 <ski> (took a short while to figure out where to access the console. i don't commonly reach for such)
2024-04-28 13:31:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah sorry
2024-04-28 13:31:27 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0 - https://znc.in)
2024-04-28 13:31:41 +0200 <ski> it's three lines, two line numbers
2024-04-28 13:31:48 +0200tomsmedingdumb
2024-04-28 13:31:54 +0200 <ski> i guess a brief call trace
2024-04-28 13:31:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> yes
2024-04-28 13:32:46 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2024-04-28 13:32:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: what's your firefox version?
2024-04-28 13:33:01 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-28 13:33:38 +0200 <ski> 91.4.1esr (64-bit)
2024-04-28 13:33:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's 2021 vintage
2024-04-28 13:34:52 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@softbank219059019218.bbtec.net)
2024-04-28 13:35:59 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 13:36:24 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2024-04-28 13:36:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> mozilla doesn't seem to publish anything on support periods (?)
2024-04-28 13:37:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> this https://endoflife.date/firefox claims that it's been out of support for a long time
2024-04-28 13:38:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> (Dialog.showModal(), the function that you don't have, is in firefox since 98, so would already be in the next ESR, 102, which is also already old)
2024-04-28 13:38:39 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/blog/baseline-evolution-on-mdn/
2024-04-28 13:38:51 +0200 <int-e> LOL https://devdoc.net/web/developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Firefox_ESR.html "The current ESR version is based on Firefox 45 issued on March 8th, 2016." ("Last updated by: SphinxKnight, Jul 11, 2017, 5:10:31 AM")
2024-04-28 13:39:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> int-e: I suggest removing the devdoc.net/web/ prefix from that :p
2024-04-28 13:39:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: right, I see such a support box at the top of the mdn page for showModal() https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLDialogElement/showModal
2024-04-28 13:40:12 +0200 <int-e> tomsmeding: But then I get a 404 :P
2024-04-28 13:42:30 +0200 <yin> https://caniuse.com/?search=showModal
2024-04-28 13:43:17 +0200 <yin> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/showModalDialog
2024-04-28 13:43:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: "This method was removed in Chrome 43 and Firefox 56."
2024-04-28 13:44:01 +0200 <yin> https://caniuse.com/?search=dialog
2024-04-28 13:44:12 +0200 <yin> yes...
2024-04-28 13:44:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: what are you trying to say?
2024-04-28 13:44:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> <dialog> works from firefox 98, and ski is using an old version 91.4 ESR
2024-04-28 13:44:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> I had previously decided that >=98 was wide enough, but maybe it isn't now
2024-04-28 13:45:11 +0200 <yin> oh i see
2024-04-28 13:47:01 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: yeah you need to choose the cutoof
2024-04-28 13:47:05 +0200 <yin> cutoff
2024-04-28 13:47:27 +0200 <yin> i personally design for text only browsers first and build from there
2024-04-28 13:47:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: why are you still on 91? Is it likely that it's just you or do you get this from some package manager somewhere that other people might also use?
2024-04-28 13:48:12 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: have you considered https://caniuse.com/?search=alert ?
2024-04-28 13:48:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> it was an alert() before :p
2024-04-28 13:48:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> I might fallback to that
2024-04-28 13:48:29 +0200ocra8(ocra8@user/ocra8)
2024-04-28 13:48:33 +0200 <yin> welp :)
2024-04-28 13:49:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/issues/3
2024-04-28 13:49:30 +0200 <ski> well, i installed debian-based distro on this laptop, a few years ago, and haven't gotten around to updating it
2024-04-28 13:49:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: I see, thanks; that tells me that you might not be the only one
2024-04-28 13:50:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> be aware of missing security patches in basically everything on your machine though
2024-04-28 13:51:40 +0200 <yin> for vulnerabilities like alert :)
2024-04-28 13:52:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> for any browser vulnerabilities since mid 2021
2024-04-28 13:52:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> which is significant
2024-04-28 13:52:50 +0200 <int-e> even oldstable is at 115
2024-04-28 13:53:04 +0200 <int-e> (aka buster)
2024-04-28 13:53:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> these days, for better or for worse, a web browser is not something that you should want to get very old
2024-04-28 13:56:25 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-04-28 14:01:47 +0200 <yin> is there a difference between 'map (show @Double)' and 'map (show :: Double -> String)' ?
2024-04-28 14:02:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
2024-04-28 14:02:07 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-04-28 14:02:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> % :t show
2024-04-28 14:02:09 +0200 <yahb2> show :: forall a. Show a => a -> String
2024-04-28 14:02:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> no
2024-04-28 14:03:20 +0200 <int-e> well, type applications are a language extensions
2024-04-28 14:03:28 +0200 <yin> in which case does one need TypeApplications?
2024-04-28 14:03:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> the first only
2024-04-28 14:03:46 +0200 <yin> no, i mean
2024-04-28 14:03:57 +0200 <yin> why do we need TypeApplications if we can just annotate
2024-04-28 14:04:21 +0200 <int-e> show @Double is shorter than show :: Double -> String
2024-04-28 14:04:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> because 1. sometimes the whole type is very large and contains many components that are irrelevant to this annotation
2024-04-28 14:04:31 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@softbank219059019218.bbtec.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-28 14:04:35 +0200 <mauke> sometimes there is nothing to annotate
2024-04-28 14:04:59 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-04-28 14:05:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> and 2. if the type was defined using AllowAmbiguousTypes an annotation might not be enough
2024-04-28 14:05:44 +0200 <mauke> class Memorable a where { bitsNeeded :: Int }
2024-04-28 14:06:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> (which indeed needs AllowAmbiguousTypes)
2024-04-28 14:08:38 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 14:09:15 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!)
2024-04-28 14:09:24 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2024-04-28 14:10:22 +0200 <yin> it surprises me that TypeApplications, being included in GHC2021 and GHC2024, just offer a slightly more convenient but also less readable way of type annotation
2024-04-28 14:10:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> it is hugely more convenient in some cases
2024-04-28 14:11:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> and genuinely required if the original type was ambiguous
2024-04-28 14:11:30 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: ok, but that requires a non default extension
2024-04-28 14:12:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> an example of the first is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sqlite-simple-0.4.19.0/docs/Database-SQLite-Simple.html#v:query
2024-04-28 14:12:43 +0200 <yin> oh nvm
2024-04-28 14:12:47 +0200 <yin> i get it now
2024-04-28 14:12:49 +0200 <yin> thanks
2024-04-28 14:13:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> being able to write `query @_ @(Maybe Int, String)` if I want to annotate that the result row is [nullable integer, text] is MUCH more convenient than having to give a full type annotation
2024-04-28 14:21:37 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-28 14:22:00 +0200 <yin> ok then my next question is
2024-04-28 14:22:22 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
2024-04-28 14:22:24 +0200 <yin> why is AllowAmbiguousTypes not enabled by default?
2024-04-28 14:22:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> because you _typically_ don't want to write an ambiguous type
2024-04-28 14:23:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's good to be forced to add a Proxy argument if you do want to write one
2024-04-28 14:23:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> ambiguous types are very annoying to work with
2024-04-28 14:24:12 +0200 <yin> reasonable
2024-04-28 14:26:15 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 14:26:48 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@softbank219059019218.bbtec.net)
2024-04-28 14:26:50 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2024-04-28 14:35:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski Rembane: I pushed some changes to the playground, there's metadata now on the paste view page (example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/AwWkZI0A ) and the raw link should work in text mode too
2024-04-28 14:36:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> also please check that I correctly did the last-modified date thing ski
2024-04-28 14:38:16 +0200_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-28 14:38:32 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@softbank219059019218.bbtec.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-28 14:39:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> (I'll be a way for an hour or two but I'll read logs)
2024-04-28 14:42:42 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-28 14:43:38 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-28 14:49:44 +0200rosco(~rosco@yp-146-6.tm.net.my) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-04-28 14:54:22 +0200 <ski> tomsmeding : ah, thank you very much ! :D
2024-04-28 14:55:29 +0200 <ski> (i did check both in graphical and terminal browser, and confirmed that `wget' (and i'd presume also `curl') sets the correct modified timestamp)
2024-04-28 14:57:33 +0200_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216)
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2024-04-28 15:45:40 +0200 <MelMalik> gnern
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2024-04-28 16:30:48 +0200kronicmage(~kronicmag@neotame.csclub.uwaterloo.ca)
2024-04-28 16:38:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: thanks, I checked using wget too but I had never made use of that functionality before, so good that it works for you too
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2024-04-28 18:57:41 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-28 18:59:18 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym)
2024-04-28 19:08:07 +0200kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51em86a8i0cnankt.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2024-04-28 19:09:55 +0200famubu(~julinuser@user/famubu) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-28 19:12:25 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-28 19:13:13 +0200 <pagnol> I'm writing client package/library for a third-part rest api. Does anyone know any nice patterns for this sort of thing?
2024-04-28 19:13:18 +0200 <pagnol> *a client
2024-04-28 19:14:15 +0200 <pagnol> I have a Swagger spec available but it's not too great, so I think I need to hand-write the client either way.
2024-04-28 19:16:16 +0200 <[exa]> pagnol: no direct advice but you might want to steal some tricks from other API packages
2024-04-28 19:16:38 +0200 <[exa]> there's e.g. the amazon API frontend, and I recently touched the gitlab API which wasn't bad either
2024-04-28 19:17:30 +0200ocra8(ocra8@user/ocra8)
2024-04-28 19:18:21 +0200 <[exa]> pagnol: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/amazonka and maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/amazonka-core and https://gitlab.com/robstewart57/gitlab-haskell
2024-04-28 19:19:00 +0200 <kuribas> pagnol: servant?
2024-04-28 19:19:46 +0200Guest24(~Guest43@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 19:19:55 +0200haskell_(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 19:20:21 +0200Guest24(~Guest43@65.17.175.150) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 19:21:24 +0200 <[exa]> given the other side sounds like pythons I'd say that servant way has a huge chance to turn into a ball of duct tape around a tiny servant core...but yeah ymmv
2024-04-28 19:21:25 +0200haskell_(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Client Quit)
2024-04-28 19:21:43 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 19:24:31 +0200 <kuribas> oh right, if it is not very well specified...
2024-04-28 19:24:44 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 19:24:54 +0200 <kuribas> Depends if pagnol wants a well typed API, or just something which returns json values...
2024-04-28 19:25:19 +0200 <kuribas> But I find it hard to understand how sloppy many API are with openapi specs.
2024-04-28 19:25:44 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 19:27:29 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-28 19:27:59 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2024-04-28 19:29:13 +0200 <kuribas> some python frameworks like connexion verify the inputs, but by default not the outputs.
2024-04-28 19:30:50 +0200 <pagnol> thanks, some good pointers, I'm looking at the one for Gitlab nw
2024-04-28 19:30:52 +0200 <pagnol> *now
2024-04-28 19:32:57 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-04-28 19:35:20 +0200 <pagnol> as only an occasional Haskell user I find the Gitlab client really readable
2024-04-28 19:38:51 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-73-164-206-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
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2024-04-28 20:05:23 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
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2024-04-28 20:21:24 +0200gabriel_sevecek(~gabriel@188-167-229-200.dynamic.chello.sk)
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2024-04-28 20:54:31 +0200rvalue-(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
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2024-04-28 21:03:19 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205)
2024-04-28 21:04:21 +0200 <mreh> so ghci will only compile the C functions you've referenced via the FFI rather than the whole file, that's interesting
2024-04-28 21:05:18 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-28 21:05:42 +0200Lears(~Leary]@user/Leary/x-0910699)
2024-04-28 21:06:37 +0200 <EvanR> and functions referenced by those functions, and so on?
2024-04-28 21:07:16 +0200 <int-e> That doesn't sound right. Linking only functions that are used, that I can believe.
2024-04-28 21:07:24 +0200[Leary](~Leary]@user/Leary/x-0910699) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 21:08:27 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-28 21:08:27 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-04-28 21:11:55 +0200 <mreh> ghci only links functions that are used, GHC links everything in the source file
2024-04-28 21:12:03 +0200 <mreh> (through stack)
2024-04-28 21:12:44 +0200 <mreh> I only found out because GPC 2.33 uses non standard libc functions
2024-04-28 21:12:45 +0200 <EvanR> ghci dynamically loads?
2024-04-28 21:12:57 +0200mima(~mmh@ip-185-104-138-52.ptr.icomera.net)
2024-04-28 21:13:01 +0200 <mreh> I think so, yeah
2024-04-28 21:13:02 +0200 <geekosaur> C/FFI yes
2024-04-28 21:13:50 +0200 <geekosaur> but whether it can partially load an object file depends on the platform
2024-04-28 21:15:01 +0200 <geekosaur> and how the object was built (on x86_64 it must have been compiled with -fPIC, for example)
2024-04-28 21:16:26 +0200 <mreh> is that the default?
2024-04-28 21:16:42 +0200 <geekosaur> not on x86_64
2024-04-28 21:16:48 +0200 <mreh> huh, that's weird
2024-04-28 21:16:49 +0200 <geekosaur> (except on Macs)
2024-04-28 21:17:44 +0200 <mreh> so do I publish my partial bindings to GPC? There is a package on hackage that did, but it's pretty bit rotted now.
2024-04-28 21:18:24 +0200Rodney_(~Rodney@176.254.244.83) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 21:24:01 +0200Etabeta1(~Etabeta1@user/meow/Etabeta1) (Quit: quit)
2024-04-28 21:25:57 +0200 <mreh> @seen dons
2024-04-28 21:25:57 +0200 <lambdabot> I saw dons leaving #haskell 2y 1m 3d 6h 10m 13s ago.
2024-04-28 21:26:42 +0200 <EvanR> that was after the freenodealypse, does lambdabot have memories from before that?
2024-04-28 21:27:03 +0200 <geekosaur> @seen eviltwin_b
2024-04-28 21:27:03 +0200 <lambdabot> I saw eviltwin_b leaving #xmonad, #ghc, #haskell-beginners and #haskell 1y 10m 15d 23h 53m 53s ago.
2024-04-28 21:27:08 +0200 <geekosaur> huh
2024-04-28 21:27:18 +0200 <geekosaur> didn't think I'd used that alias that recently
2024-04-28 21:27:42 +0200 <monochrom> Oh hey it's the 1st anniversary!
2024-04-28 21:27:54 +0200 <geekosaur> second, no?
2024-04-28 21:28:01 +0200 <EvanR> it was in 2021
2024-04-28 21:28:05 +0200 <geekosaur> oh
2024-04-28 21:28:07 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2024-04-28 21:28:08 +0200 <monochrom> Err nevermind, misread 10m as 10 minutes.
2024-04-28 21:28:10 +0200 <mreh> I wasn't around, what happen
2024-04-28 21:28:33 +0200 <geekosaur> freenode was taken over by a lunatic and imploded
2024-04-28 21:28:44 +0200 <geekosaur> sort of twitter in miniature
2024-04-28 21:29:44 +0200 <mreh> ah yeah, I'm just reading the wikipedia article
2024-04-28 21:29:45 +0200 <geekosaur> the staff left en masse and founded libera; much of freenode followed them
2024-04-28 21:31:22 +0200 <mreh> I rewatched a talk from SPJ from 2007: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06x8Wf2r2Mc&t=761s
2024-04-28 21:31:43 +0200 <mreh> 3k unique nicks in #haskell in 2006
2024-04-28 21:33:38 +0200 <mreh> we probably had fewer than 300 users online concurrently in the 2010s iirc
2024-04-28 21:34:13 +0200mechap(~mechap@user/mechap)
2024-04-28 21:38:12 +0200 <dolio> 3k was probably mostly people idling.
2024-04-28 21:38:23 +0200 <dolio> Even now it seems like most people idle.
2024-04-28 21:39:34 +0200werneta(~werneta@71.83.160.242)
2024-04-28 21:39:59 +0200 <dolio> The freenode disaster really lowered the amount of idlers, though, I suspect.
2024-04-28 21:40:39 +0200 <[exa]> kinda increased the use of matrix and other things too
2024-04-28 21:40:45 +0200 <dolio> Yeah.
2024-04-28 21:40:45 +0200 <geekosaur> dropped roughly by half, and by half again when the EWS gateway died
2024-04-28 21:40:50 +0200 <int-e> that, the end of the matrix bridge... and general decline
2024-04-28 21:40:55 +0200 <int-e> (of IRC)
2024-04-28 21:41:05 +0200 <geekosaur> *EMS
2024-04-28 21:41:12 +0200 <mreh> is there a discord?
2024-04-28 21:41:23 +0200 <mreh> is that where all the zoomer haskellers hang out?
2024-04-28 21:42:22 +0200 <ncf> yep
2024-04-28 21:42:31 +0200 <geekosaur> https://discord.gg/5ay2HNK2 iirc
2024-04-28 21:42:53 +0200 <geekosaur> on the FP discord
2024-04-28 21:43:09 +0200y04nn(~username@2a03:1b20:8:f011::e10d) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-28 21:44:42 +0200 <geekosaur> I'm definitely using more Matrix these days, but still appreciate my IRC logs
2024-04-28 21:45:49 +0200 <yin> https://taylor.fausak.me/2022/11/18/haskell-survey-results/#s5q0
2024-04-28 21:46:13 +0200 <yin> IRC not that far from Discord
2024-04-28 21:50:39 +0200 <mreh> did you promote this on IRC :^)
2024-04-28 21:52:02 +0200 <yin> don't know if it was promoted here but the results are more or less consistent with previous years
2024-04-28 21:52:28 +0200 <geekosaur> it's promoted pretty much everywhere
2024-04-28 21:54:03 +0200 <yin> probably it's not far from a "where the survey was promoted" plot
2024-04-28 21:54:06 +0200 <yin> :p
2024-04-28 21:55:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> promoting something in a linear chat channel is kind of difficult
2024-04-28 21:55:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess the same holds for matrix, but on discord one can at least pin a post (don't know if they did that here, I'm not in that discord)
2024-04-28 21:56:04 +0200 <yin> that's what /topic is for
2024-04-28 21:56:21 +0200 <dolio> That thing no one reads? :þ
2024-04-28 21:56:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> when haskell reddit was larger (I left reddit when the third-party apps thing happend) that was a good promotion venue
2024-04-28 21:56:52 +0200 <yin> i read it! old habit from the "netiquette" days
2024-04-28 21:57:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> I've learned to read it -- it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out how to scroll to the end in weechat
2024-04-28 21:57:32 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: yes, haskell reddit was very good
2024-04-28 21:57:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> (it's still the very first thing in the topic)
2024-04-28 21:58:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> also it's kind of hilarious that the majority of the www links in the topic are hosted by me
2024-04-28 21:58:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> that sort of happened... accidentally
2024-04-28 21:58:38 +0200 <yin> i forget, do individual channels have a MOTD?
2024-04-28 21:58:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think the only thing there is is the /topic
2024-04-28 21:59:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> where would a motd be printed
2024-04-28 21:59:08 +0200 <geekosaur> chanserv can give people messages on join
2024-04-28 21:59:18 +0200 <yin> geekosaur: that's what i was thinking of
2024-04-28 21:59:51 +0200 <geekosaur> but the messages show as from chanserv, not from the channel, so they tend to collect uselessly
2024-04-28 21:59:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> that would _certainly_ be something no one reads, because it appears in strictly less places than the topic
2024-04-28 22:00:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> can chanserv send something in a channel that's only visible to one nick?
2024-04-28 22:00:29 +0200 <EvanR> what is the state of haskell reddit?
2024-04-28 22:00:45 +0200 <geekosaur> in fact, we have one: [20 11:46:14] -ChanServ- [#haskell] Welcome to #haskell. Beginner questions are welcome here! Public logs and statistics for this channel are available at https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/lchaskell
2024-04-28 22:00:53 +0200 <yin> i have a special pane on top just for server messages, mentions and other important stuff. i rarely miss anything
2024-04-28 22:00:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh! I remember seeing that
2024-04-28 22:01:15 +0200 <geekosaur> no, if it's sent "to a channel" then it's not sent "to a nick" (this is a side effect how how IRC messages are implemented)
2024-04-28 22:01:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> I remember seeing that message in my #haskell log though
2024-04-28 22:01:47 +0200tomsmedingdoesn't actually know how irc works in detail
2024-04-28 22:01:49 +0200 <yin> bots sometimes send you a notice on join
2024-04-28 22:02:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> as in, not in a /query
2024-04-28 22:02:07 +0200mauke- please note that you have been notified
2024-04-28 22:02:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> thank you for the notice
2024-04-28 22:02:31 +0200 <mauke> ^ this is how all bots are supposed to speak, btw
2024-04-28 22:02:35 +0200 <mauke> according to the IRC protocol
2024-04-28 22:02:42 +0200ncf(~n@monade.li) (Fairfarren.)
2024-04-28 22:02:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://xkcd.com/703/
2024-04-28 22:02:43 +0200ncf(~n@monade.li)
2024-04-28 22:02:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> really?
2024-04-28 22:02:59 +0200 <yin> not everyone agrees how notices should be used, although libera has a directive for bots to communicate through notices
2024-04-28 22:03:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> also something like lambdabot?
2024-04-28 22:03:15 +0200 <yin> mauke: exaclty
2024-04-28 22:03:16 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, bots are supposed to use /NOTICE
2024-04-28 22:03:20 +0200 <geekosaur> very few of them do
2024-04-28 22:03:26 +0200 <ncf> ChanServ sends a PvNotice, whatever that is
2024-04-28 22:03:35 +0200 <mauke> the protocol has two messages-sending primitives, PRIVMSG and NOTICE
2024-04-28 22:03:55 +0200 <yin> i'm not sure if i agree with it myself, but one positive side effect is that notices prevent feedback loops
2024-04-28 22:03:56 +0200 <mauke> the only difference is supposed to be that NOTICE should not be processed by bots (and trigger further actions)
2024-04-28 22:04:23 +0200destituion(~destituio@2001:4644:c37:0:6086:64f4:a213:b80d) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-28 22:04:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> notices appear very differently in my client
2024-04-28 22:04:43 +0200 <mauke> but some clients instead treat NOTICE has a more important message than PRIVMSG (instead of less important), and beep and alert you about it
2024-04-28 22:04:50 +0200 <mauke> s/has a/as a/
2024-04-28 22:05:09 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-04-28 22:05:15 +0200 <ncf> aah so if you send a NOTICE to someone with the format [#channel] text then weechat displays it in that channel
2024-04-28 22:05:29 +0200 <monochrom> By and far, most clients. It is why bot writers stopped using NOTICE.
2024-04-28 22:05:40 +0200 <yin> i have configured notices to appear exactly the same as messages except for color
2024-04-28 22:05:59 +0200destituion(~destituio@2a02:2121:340:2456:fffe:d0f:7737:dd1)
2024-04-28 22:06:17 +0200 <yin> i used to broadcast them, but because some bots started using them i stopped doing i
2024-04-28 22:06:25 +0200 <monochrom> In general, humanity is fundamentally broken, and everything breaks as expected.
2024-04-28 22:06:44 +0200 <[exa]> I always thought about notices as a kindof OOB data. "Read this before you get b&" or so.
2024-04-28 22:06:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> I suspect it wouldn't go over well if I'd have yahb2 send notices
2024-04-28 22:06:46 +0200 <ncf> oh shush
2024-04-28 22:07:45 +0200 <[exa]> tomsmeding: s/yahb2/yahh2/ compliance fixed
2024-04-28 22:07:56 +0200 <yin> notices used to go in my aforementioned special window until it started getting spammed by some bot
2024-04-28 22:08:08 +0200 <mauke> according to the RFC, NOTICEs are just regular chat messages that are ignored by bots
2024-04-28 22:08:32 +0200 <yin> why do some clients broadcast them then?
2024-04-28 22:08:35 +0200 <yin> makes no sense
2024-04-28 22:09:02 +0200 <monochrom> Because "meaningful" names. People look at the name "NOTICE" and start having their own ideas.
2024-04-28 22:09:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> precisely
2024-04-28 22:09:08 +0200 <[exa]> yin: why do people read documentation. :D
2024-04-28 22:09:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> both names are bad actually, NOTICE and PRIVMSG
2024-04-28 22:09:26 +0200 <mauke> NOTICE ME, SENPAI
2024-04-28 22:10:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> nothing PRIV about a PRIVMSG
2024-04-28 22:10:43 +0200 <mauke> it is only sent to the specified target :-)
2024-04-28 22:10:58 +0200 <mauke> instead of the whole server
2024-04-28 22:11:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> lol
2024-04-28 22:11:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> that would be something
2024-04-28 22:11:29 +0200 <mauke> I mean, IRC started out by emulating CB radio
2024-04-28 22:11:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> perhaps the names were chosen when servers had like 20 people on them
2024-04-28 22:11:37 +0200 <mauke> it's why we speak on "channels"
2024-04-28 22:11:53 +0200 <mauke> and they used to be numeric
2024-04-28 22:12:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> is the use of the word "channel" on matrix, discord, slack, etc. from irc, directly from radio, or unrelated?
2024-04-28 22:12:17 +0200 <mauke> I think it's from IRC
2024-04-28 22:12:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> funny
2024-04-28 22:12:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> tell that to a zoomer discord user
2024-04-28 22:13:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> "still using those old radio terminology?"
2024-04-28 22:13:07 +0200 <yushyin> matrix has 'rooms' afaik?
2024-04-28 22:13:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> s/those/that/
2024-04-28 22:13:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> fair point
2024-04-28 22:13:26 +0200 <yin> i asked chatgpt to list all message types in the IRC protocol and it listed NOTICE twice: under User Communication as "send a message that does not trigger automatic responses" and under Miscellaneous as "used for various notifications and alerts"
2024-04-28 22:13:28 +0200 <[exa]> ah c'mon we've had rooms in 28000 BC
2024-04-28 22:13:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: so that sounds surprisingly accurate, down to the ambiguity
2024-04-28 22:14:27 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 22:14:28 +0200 <yin> that why i sometimes like chatgpt
2024-04-28 22:14:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> I sometimes try to imagine how the tech world must sound for a native english speaker
2024-04-28 22:15:15 +0200 <int-e> IRC has some obscure corners (so obscure that they may not even be implemented in modern servers... server-local channels are an example)
2024-04-28 22:15:23 +0200 <yin> it's also the only duplicated type
2024-04-28 22:15:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> I suspect I learned the word "window" as referring to something on a computer screen before knowing that it referred to a silicon-esquen thing you can look through
2024-04-28 22:15:41 +0200 <mauke> was that the &foo thing?
2024-04-28 22:15:45 +0200 <int-e> mauke: yeah
2024-04-28 22:15:56 +0200 <[exa]> tomsmeding: literally last week I had to explain that "eradicate" in a commit message is a positive happy action
2024-04-28 22:16:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> depends on what you eradicate, I guess
2024-04-28 22:16:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> if it's bugs, then that's very positive
2024-04-28 22:16:26 +0200 <[exa]> well, bugs, as usual
2024-04-28 22:18:22 +0200noumenon(~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-28 22:20:06 +0200 <mauke> ex ter mi nate
2024-04-28 22:21:02 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-28 22:21:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> istos cimices
2024-04-28 22:24:14 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 22:26:46 +0200 <EvanR> tomsmeding, I'm a native english speaker. But I think I learned about windows before actual windows. And before Windows(R), since macintosh came first
2024-04-28 22:26:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> :D
2024-04-28 22:27:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah no I definitely knew the Dutch word for a transparent-glass window before I had done anything with a computer
2024-04-28 22:28:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> I wanted to say "touched", but I don't know what my hands did when I was a baby
2024-04-28 22:29:05 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps you broke the window. :)
2024-04-28 22:29:19 +0200 <monochrom> "I just touched it and it shattered."
2024-04-28 22:29:52 +0200 <EvanR> it was a TV that broke
2024-04-28 22:30:04 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: diamond fingernails vs. touch screen
2024-04-28 22:30:06 +0200 <EvanR> in the macintosh 1984 ad
2024-04-28 22:30:39 +0200 <EvanR> or was it just apple, I don't even know what they were selling there
2024-04-28 22:31:29 +0200 <monochrom> Haha which one makes a worse screeching sound? bad violin student, diamonad fingernails on touch screen
2024-04-28 22:31:31 +0200y04nn(~username@2a03:1b20:8:f011::e10d)
2024-04-28 22:31:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> diamonad, yes
2024-04-28 22:31:51 +0200 <int-e> can't wait for the diamonad tutorial
2024-04-28 22:32:07 +0200 <monochrom> Oh oops haha great typo
2024-04-28 22:32:22 +0200bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b025:e5c1:3276:e96d:2d6f:14d7)
2024-04-28 22:32:27 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-28 22:32:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> add "drag piece of chalk under just the right angle over a blackboard" to that list
2024-04-28 22:32:58 +0200 <monochrom> perhaps diamond fingernail on blackboard is even better!
2024-04-28 22:33:01 +0200 <geekosaur> EvanR, just Apple
2024-04-28 22:33:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> maybe they were selling apples
2024-04-28 22:34:09 +0200 <EvanR> On January 24, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you'll see why 1984 won't be like "1984."
2024-04-28 22:34:17 +0200 <monochrom> <zoomer> Wait, isn't it the Epic ad breaking Apple? </zoomer>
2024-04-28 22:38:17 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-28 22:38:24 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.217)
2024-04-28 22:38:32 +0200pagnol(~user@2a02:a210:a40:c80:fea7:f5e8:1519:b9) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-28 22:39:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> <oldie> An ad for an epic? I thought they had gone out of fashion around the birth of Christ </oldie>
2024-04-28 22:39:54 +0200 <monochrom> That would be a very old oldie. :)
2024-04-28 22:40:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> unrelatedly, why does https://downloads.haskell.org still list "The Haskell Platform" if clicking that link lands you on a page saying "The Haskell Platform is deprecated"
2024-04-28 22:41:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> not only deprecated, the last release seems to be for 8.6.5
2024-04-28 22:41:29 +0200 <monochrom> Too polite to delete things?
2024-04-28 22:41:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> I would understand that if it still had releases, even if noone was using them
2024-04-28 22:42:22 +0200 <monochrom> OK I was unfair. This one shouldn't be deleted yet, but right upfront it should warn "but very old version".
2024-04-28 22:42:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess it's not terribly important, people don't typically land on downloads.haskell.org directly
2024-04-28 22:42:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> lost links everywhere
2024-04-28 22:42:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm not saying delete the file
2024-04-28 22:42:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> -s
2024-04-28 22:43:13 +0200 <monochrom> Me neither, even when I was unfair.
2024-04-28 22:43:31 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i personally think that the http protocol should hash each webpage contents and provide
2024-04-28 22:43:50 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> automatic timestamps to each edit
2024-04-28 22:43:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> are you looking for ipfs?
2024-04-28 22:44:18 +0200 <monochrom> Oh then I have something for you! https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/lmcify.html
2024-04-28 22:44:47 +0200 <monochrom> You can now make URLs that carry their own complete content!
2024-04-28 22:44:58 +0200 <mauke> you still believe in web pages?
2024-04-28 22:45:41 +0200 <mauke> I thought we'd all switched to client-side "web apps" instead
2024-04-28 22:45:42 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> that's the web i'm looking for!
2024-04-28 22:46:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> the main online news outlets in my country don't timestamp their articles nor signal their edits
2024-04-28 22:47:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> sometimes you read a really upsetting article and only after you find out that it's 10 years old
2024-04-28 22:48:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> that just sounds like bad journalism
2024-04-28 22:48:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> and sometimes you share an article and two days later the "facts" are edited
2024-04-28 22:48:34 +0200 <monochrom> People don't have incentives to keep perfect record even for themselves, much less spend extra money to run servers to make it public.
2024-04-28 22:48:53 +0200 <int-e> editing the article later is just SEO ;)
2024-04-28 22:49:11 +0200 <monochrom> Even you probably don't take a snapshot of your own hard disks every time just before you install or uninstall software.
2024-04-28 22:49:15 +0200 <geekosaur> "we have always been at war with east asia"
2024-04-28 22:49:20 +0200 <geekosaur> (speaking of 1984)
2024-04-28 22:49:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> we need nix://
2024-04-28 22:50:27 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( after 2 hours of browsing with the nix:// protocol I ran out of disk space )
2024-04-28 22:50:39 +0200 <monochrom> No, even that doesn't cut it. I am talking about a file system that is also a version system.
2024-04-28 22:50:53 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> good
2024-04-28 22:50:56 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> go touch grass
2024-04-28 22:51:08 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-28 22:51:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> 90% world problems solved
2024-04-28 22:51:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> somehow I doubt that last part
2024-04-28 22:52:30 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> yeah...
2024-04-28 22:52:56 +0200 <monochrom> Such a thing almost existed. VAX VMS kept all old versions of your files.
2024-04-28 22:53:02 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2024-04-28 22:53:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> _all_?
2024-04-28 22:53:29 +0200 <monochrom> Only economists are realistic enough to explain why no one does it any more.
2024-04-28 22:53:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's not like disks were as roomy back then as they are nowadays
2024-04-28 22:53:44 +0200 <monochrom> ___***ALL***___
2024-04-28 22:53:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> that sould have been a /NOTICE
2024-04-28 22:54:56 +0200 <monochrom> You literally could not use the excuse "I accidentally deleted my homework" because it was still literally available as "foo.c;12".
2024-04-28 22:55:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's why VAX lost
2024-04-28 22:55:29 +0200 <monochrom> (in general filename;versionnumber )
2024-04-28 22:55:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> students get older
2024-04-28 22:55:48 +0200 <int-e> my dog ate my hard disk drive
2024-04-28 22:56:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> gotta take your dog to university
2024-04-28 22:57:55 +0200 <mauke> https://perldoc.perl.org/perlport#System-Interaction :-)
2024-04-28 22:58:00 +0200 <geekosaur> hm, pretty sure that was configurable per filesystem
2024-04-28 22:58:07 +0200 <geekosaur> I know it was on TOPS-20
2024-04-28 22:58:22 +0200 <geekosaur> the one I had access to kept two prior versions
2024-04-28 22:59:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> `while unlink "file";`
2024-04-28 22:59:33 +0200tomsmedingshudders
2024-04-28 22:59:51 +0200r5c4571lh01987(~rscastilh@179.221.142.8) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 23:00:11 +0200 <mauke> `1 while unlink "file";` please
2024-04-28 23:00:20 +0200cheater_(~Username@user/cheater)
2024-04-28 23:00:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i wonder how much we could compress the wevlb just by removing duplicates
2024-04-28 23:00:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> duplicate files
2024-04-28 23:00:26 +0200 <monochrom> No more terrible than for (i = 0; i < FD_MAX; i++) { close(i); } >:)
2024-04-28 23:00:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> mauke: oops, you can see how often I've written perl
2024-04-28 23:01:00 +0200 <monochrom> (in the context of daemonizing a process on Unix)
2024-04-28 23:02:05 +0200cheater(~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:02:15 +0200cheater_cheater
2024-04-28 23:02:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> is there data on the estimates size of the www per year?
2024-04-28 23:02:27 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> *estimated
2024-04-28 23:02:48 +0200 <monochrom> I think yes but I forgot where to find it.
2024-04-28 23:02:51 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i wonder if i could download the whole 1996 web
2024-04-28 23:03:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> check /r/datahoarders
2024-04-28 23:04:04 +0200 <mauke> what is the size of https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/?
2024-04-28 23:04:34 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> C:\web\dark\sexyascii 1.7Kb
2024-04-28 23:05:34 +0200 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i just remembered https://libraryofbabel.info/
2024-04-28 23:10:28 +0200 <monochrom> Oh yeah I saw a new post/thread on the discourse about "what are effects?". I want to participate, but need to check something with you guys. Does "effect" refer to eg the ability to read input (so eg in Haskell the IO type represents the effect) or to the value/action (so eg getChar)?
2024-04-28 23:10:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> either, depending on who you're talking to
2024-04-28 23:10:56 +0200 <monochrom> :(
2024-04-28 23:10:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> the latter if you're talking to a mathematician
2024-04-28 23:11:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> the former if you're talking to a functional programmer
2024-04-28 23:11:21 +0200 <monochrom> Ah, then what do mathematicians call the former?
2024-04-28 23:11:37 +0200gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak)
2024-04-28 23:11:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> I have never seen a mathematician talk about reading input :)
2024-04-28 23:12:11 +0200 <monochrom> OK, maybe Maybe then.
2024-04-28 23:12:48 +0200 <monochrom> maybe they just say monad...
2024-04-28 23:13:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think so?
2024-04-28 23:14:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> I would personally never call "IO" an effect, though
2024-04-28 23:14:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> reading input is an effect (definition 1), and `getChar` is also an effect (definition 2)
2024-04-28 23:14:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> monads allow you to perform effects (both definitions)
2024-04-28 23:17:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> but algebraic effect systems also do, and those are not necessarily monads (though they invariably are, in haskell)
2024-04-28 23:17:31 +0200 <int-e> using monads to great effect
2024-04-28 23:17:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> s/are,/are/
2024-04-28 23:19:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> "affect your effects using monad transformers"
2024-04-28 23:20:27 +0200 <monochrom> I think all papers I read (OK, only two) presume monads for algebraic effects. I don't mean to say a programming language has to expose the monads. Just that they have monads behind.
2024-04-28 23:20:50 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 23:20:57 +0200tomsmedingdoesn't actually know how the mathematical theory for this goes
2024-04-28 23:24:09 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-68.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:24:28 +0200 <probie> Can you have a useful implementation for algebraic effects which isn't a monad? I guess if you disallow effects (definition 2) from depending on each other, you can have something weaker that's still of use
2024-04-28 23:25:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> can't you define a system of effects-and-handlers, like some languages have (Koka? Never used it though), from first principles without involving a monad?
2024-04-28 23:25:47 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2024-04-28 23:25:59 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:26:34 +0200Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:27:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> (I should read something about this topic before I go sprouting nonsense though)
2024-04-28 23:28:16 +0200 <Rembane> tomsmeding: I just saw your new version of the Haskell playground and I like it!
2024-04-28 23:28:23 +0200 <monochrom> Right, Koka doesn't expose any monad. But you start postulating monads for semantics.
2024-04-28 23:28:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> I see
2024-04-28 23:28:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> Rembane: yay!
2024-04-28 23:29:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> baby steps
2024-04-28 23:29:35 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-28 23:30:04 +0200 <ncf> that's what playgrounds are for
2024-04-28 23:31:35 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:32:07 +0200 <dolio> IO is the signature or theory. The 'effects' are related to the generators, which would be like `getChar` for IO. At least in the literature.
2024-04-28 23:32:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah yes, I now remember mathematicians using those words
2024-04-28 23:33:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> I was writing a paper with my PhD advisor and he wrote a part of the thing that talked about a monad; he wrote it \mathcal T
2024-04-28 23:33:39 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.217) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-04-28 23:33:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> "why 'T'" "well, it's a theory" "it's a monad" "ok" "call it \mathcal M" "ok"
2024-04-28 23:34:06 +0200 <ncf> triple
2024-04-28 23:34:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> more things in math are a triple than not
2024-04-28 23:34:29 +0200 <ncf> monads used to be called triples
2024-04-28 23:34:38 +0200 <monochrom> The "handler" part does not require a monad though; in fact it is not even required to be "algebraic". More concretely, for example Maybe: Just and Nothing are the algebraic part and where you require a monad, but the handler `maybe` is where you can map Maybe X to whatever Y you like; it is also not "algebraic".
2024-04-28 23:34:44 +0200 <geekosaur> don't amke me haul out Mac Lane
2024-04-28 23:34:45 +0200 <mauke> baby-step semantics
2024-04-28 23:35:19 +0200 <ncf> (that's why monads are spelt T everywhere)
2024-04-28 23:35:21 +0200 <dolio> Handlers are models, if I recall correctly.
2024-04-28 23:35:53 +0200 <mauke> I wish my handlers were models
2024-04-28 23:36:10 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2024-04-28 23:38:43 +0200 <EvanR> all the best things come in threes
2024-04-28 23:39:06 +0200 <EvanR> gifts, riddles,
2024-04-28 23:39:10 +0200 <EvanR> doors
2024-04-28 23:40:11 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:41:02 +0200 <Rembane> Animals on a boat
2024-04-28 23:41:20 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150)
2024-04-28 23:41:23 +0200 <int-e> and a cabbage
2024-04-28 23:42:07 +0200 <Rembane> Yeah, I was kinda hoping that the cabbage was an animal
2024-04-28 23:42:09 +0200 <cheater> i don't think they're spelt like that, i think they're more flaxseed
2024-04-28 23:43:32 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-28 23:43:44 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2024-04-28 23:44:50 +0200 <monochrom> You forgot that it was the human that was the 3rd animal. >:)
2024-04-28 23:45:39 +0200 <monochrom> Although, I admit that if you pose the puzzle to chatgpt, then the "you" in the story ceases to be an animal. But one can hallucinate...
2024-04-28 23:46:52 +0200mima(~mmh@ip-185-104-138-52.ptr.icomera.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:48:54 +0200 <Rembane> I totally forgot the human. :)
2024-04-28 23:54:01 +0200cashew(~cashewsta@65.17.175.150) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-28 23:56:14 +0200werneta(~werneta@71.83.160.242) (Quit: Lost terminal)