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2024-04-26 09:47:48 +0000 <carbolymer> which API do you prefer, 1 or 2? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qxFouHyR
2024-04-26 09:47:48 +0000forell(~forell@user/forell)
2024-04-26 09:48:46 +0000 <ncf> 2 is extensible
2024-04-26 09:49:25 +0000 <carbolymer> fair point
2024-04-26 09:49:42 +0000 <Rembane> I prefer number 2, it contains more words and not just a bundle of IO operations.
2024-04-26 09:51:32 +0000 <Hecate> carbolymer: is 2 just like… accessors?
2024-04-26 09:52:38 +0000 <carbolymer> can you call changing the state, an accessor?
2024-04-26 09:53:55 +0000 <[Leary]> carbolymer: 3: `do { Tripwire{trigger,check} <- mkTripwire; ... }`
2024-04-26 09:54:34 +0000 <carbolymer> [Leary]: oh that's a nice idea
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2024-04-26 09:57:35 +0000destituion(~destituio@85.221.111.174)
2024-04-26 09:57:48 +0000yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-26 09:59:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> definitely 2
2024-04-26 10:01:21 +0000 <Rembane> If you wanna go really spicy you can replace IO with some monad that looks like IO to make it possible to test stuff in a pure fashion.
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2024-04-26 10:04:37 +0000 <carbolymer> that'd be an overkil for this
2024-04-26 10:04:43 +0000 <carbolymer> thanks everyone
2024-04-26 10:04:51 +0000 <carbolymer> I'll go with nr 2
2024-04-26 10:08:26 +0000 <Rembane> Sounds good. I'm always trudging around in the testing swamps, which is why I see these things everywhere.
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2024-04-26 11:22:51 +0000nij-(~NPC@c-73-238-75-2.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
2024-04-26 11:23:18 +0000 <nij-> Why isn't getLine of type `IO () -> String`, but rather `IO String`?
2024-04-26 11:23:38 +0000 <nij-> How do I make whatever getLine returns into a datum of type String?
2024-04-26 11:23:56 +0000 <geekosaur> `getLine` is not a `String`, it is a program that when run may produce a `String`
2024-04-26 11:24:06 +0000 <geekosaur> @quote /bin/ls
2024-04-26 11:24:06 +0000 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
2024-04-26 11:25:51 +0000 <geekosaur> and if you want access to the `String` if and when it is produced, you use `>>=` (or write using `do` notation, which does the `>>=` for you)
2024-04-26 11:26:48 +0000 <nij-> Hmm but I will never get a pure String.. you mean?
2024-04-26 11:27:07 +0000 <nij-> because a single monad m cannot be removed.
2024-04-26 11:27:16 +0000 <int-e> But you can pass it to pure functions from within IO
2024-04-26 11:27:16 +0000 <nij-> i.e. mmx -> mx is possible
2024-04-26 11:27:20 +0000 <nij-> but mx -> x is not.
2024-04-26 11:27:37 +0000 <geekosaur> it's possible temporarily, but you hav e to put it back when you're done
2024-04-26 11:27:38 +0000 <int-e> :t fmap
2024-04-26 11:27:39 +0000 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
2024-04-26 11:27:41 +0000 <geekosaur> :t (>>=)
2024-04-26 11:27:42 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
2024-04-26 11:27:44 +0000 <nij-> int-e Right, but my whole program, since the introduction of getLn, will be "impure" in this sense?
2024-04-26 11:27:58 +0000 <int-e> yes it will be
2024-04-26 11:27:58 +0000 <geekosaur> it is anyway, since `main :: IO a`
2024-04-26 11:28:06 +0000 <nij-> ok
2024-04-26 11:28:26 +0000 <nij-> So the idea is to write pure functions all the way down, and have the "dirty" elements only for stdio
2024-04-26 11:28:28 +0000 <nij-> ?
2024-04-26 11:28:36 +0000 <int-e> :t interact
2024-04-26 11:28:37 +0000 <lambdabot> (String -> String) -> IO ()
2024-04-26 11:28:49 +0000 <geekosaur> roughly yes
2024-04-26 11:28:57 +0000 <int-e> (you can make main = interact main' and then main' :: String -> String can actually be pure)
2024-04-26 11:29:12 +0000 <geekosaur> pure functions are easier to work with, but useful programs are impure
2024-04-26 11:29:15 +0000 <nij-> If I really want, can I write a function of type IO String -> String, that
2024-04-26 11:29:27 +0000 <int-e> (Is that a good idea? Not if you want more interesting effects but `interact` is lovely for simple trext processing.)
2024-04-26 11:29:29 +0000 <nij-> if read correctly, return the string, if not, return "LOL"
2024-04-26 11:29:54 +0000 <ncf> that wouldn't be pure
2024-04-26 11:29:56 +0000 <geekosaur> there's a way to do it, but it won't do what you expect
2024-04-26 11:30:11 +0000 <int-e> :t const "LOL"
2024-04-26 11:30:11 +0000 <lambdabot> b -> [Char]
2024-04-26 11:30:12 +0000 <nij-> ncf Why not?
2024-04-26 11:30:26 +0000 <nij-> geekosaur Yeah, right. I'm just curious how to do that.
2024-04-26 11:30:35 +0000 <ncf> "reading successfully" is not a property of an IO String. it's a property of running that action
2024-04-26 11:31:04 +0000 <int-e> To be pure, foo getLine would have to return the same result every time it's evaluated.
2024-04-26 11:31:07 +0000 <nij-> Ok.. how about. If it's read to be "A", return "A"; otherwise, return "LOL"?
2024-04-26 11:31:54 +0000 <ncf> the pure result of type String cannot depend on what running the action does
2024-04-26 11:32:03 +0000 <nij-> Hmm I see. Then I make it weaker: make the function whose "final type" is the pure String.
2024-04-26 11:32:05 +0000 <int-e> We have `unsafePerformIO` and the name is not a joke.
2024-04-26 11:32:48 +0000 <ncf> nij-: isn't that what you wrote earlier?
2024-04-26 11:32:50 +0000 <int-e> The right way is to start within IO and then pass values (like the string that `getLine` produces) into pure functions.
2024-04-26 11:33:14 +0000 <tomsmeding> the idea of IO is that it is "viral": any computation that is impure (e.g. because it has side-effects, or does not always return the same thing, etc.) is in IO, and anything that _uses_ any of that is hence also in IO
2024-04-26 11:33:56 +0000 <tomsmeding> a traditional design for programming in haskell is to write most of your program without IO, and to have a relatively small outside layer that does IO and calls into the pure logic inside to do the actual, well, logic
2024-04-26 11:34:02 +0000 <tomsmeding> ("functional core, imperative shell")
2024-04-26 11:34:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> there are various ways to make this more nuanced, e.g. with effect systems, but the basic idea is still a sound way to construct purely functional programs
2024-04-26 11:34:55 +0000 <tomsmeding> so indeed, as soon as you use getLine, anything that calls that will live in IO
2024-04-26 11:35:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> but that doesn't mean that you cannot write a 'foo :: String -> Whatever' function that uses the result, and then at the top level, have 'do { line <- getLine ; print (foo line) }'
2024-04-26 11:35:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> this implicitly uses (>>=)
2024-04-26 11:36:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> (removing the syntactic sugar ("desugared"), that would be 'getLine >>= \line -> print (foo line)')
2024-04-26 11:36:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> the upshot of it all is that a function that returns a non-IO value will hence be pure and always return the same thing without side effects!
2024-04-26 11:36:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> and that's the big win
2024-04-26 11:37:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> (unless you use something like unsafePerformIO, but then it's on you to maintain that promise, and woe you if you don't -- it's called "unsafe" for a reason)
2024-04-26 11:38:07 +0000 <tomsmeding> (using unsafePerformIO correctly is quite tricky and essentially requires knowing something about GHC's internals)
2024-04-26 11:39:53 +0000 <int-e> . o O ( imagine a T-shirt saying "ask me about `unsaferPerformIO` inside `atomically`" )
2024-04-26 11:40:04 +0000 <nij-> I see. Thanks!
2024-04-26 11:40:06 +0000 <nij-> Hmm
2024-04-26 11:40:19 +0000 <nij-> Unless, the function is IO String -> String, which always returns a constant?
2024-04-26 11:40:34 +0000 <nij-> s/a constant/a predefined constant/
2024-04-26 11:40:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> the only way to implement that function (apart from using unsafePerformIO) is to return a constant
2024-04-26 11:40:46 +0000 <nij-> I see. Thanks a lot!
2024-04-26 11:41:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> and apart from breaking open the internals of the IO data type (yes, it's a data type) and doing things that are even more unsafe than unsafePerformIO
2024-04-26 11:42:47 +0000 <nij-> Interesting.
2024-04-26 11:43:27 +0000ncf. o O ( unsafeCoerce )
2024-04-26 11:44:42 +0000 <tomsmeding> yeah there are more backdoors
2024-04-26 11:45:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> you can also pass through a FFI function mistagged as non-IO
2024-04-26 11:45:21 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-26 11:45:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> I feel like that does not make my general claim any less true :p
2024-04-26 11:45:53 +0000 <nij-> Just wondering,
2024-04-26 11:45:59 +0000 <nij-> monads are functors with structures
2024-04-26 11:46:15 +0000 <nij-> Are there pairs of functors that satisfy some algebraic relations like this too?
2024-04-26 11:46:22 +0000 <int-e> @quote burrito
2024-04-26 11:46:22 +0000 <lambdabot> xplat says: monads are to burritos as distributive laws are to pepto-bismol
2024-04-26 11:48:07 +0000 <ncf> adjunctions come to mind
2024-04-26 11:48:55 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-26 11:49:26 +0000 <nij-> ncf any interesting and useful adjunctions in haskell?
2024-04-26 11:49:37 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-04-26 11:49:47 +0000zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Quit: https://zer0bitz.dy.fi)
2024-04-26 11:50:05 +0000 <ncf> (,) a ⊣ (->) a
2024-04-26 11:50:17 +0000 <ncf> :t (curry, uncurry)
2024-04-26 11:50:18 +0000 <lambdabot> (((a1, b1) -> c1) -> a1 -> b1 -> c1, (a2 -> b2 -> c2) -> (a2, b2) -> c2)
2024-04-26 11:51:08 +0000 <ncf> you can make a State monad out of this!
2024-04-26 11:51:18 +0000 <ncf> (and a Store comonad)
2024-04-26 11:52:27 +0000 <nij-> hmm.. im not looking for functions that have algebraic relations, but functors.
2024-04-26 11:52:35 +0000 <nij-> multiple (i.e. more than 1) functors
2024-04-26 11:53:13 +0000 <ncf> well, (,) a and (->) a are the functors here
2024-04-26 11:53:31 +0000 <ncf> relations between functors are bound to involve types and functions
2024-04-26 11:54:48 +0000bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2024-04-26 11:55:41 +0000 <nij-> I don't know about these two functors.. wow.
2024-04-26 11:55:54 +0000 <nij-> What are them? They aren't composed with eng chars so too hard to find with google.
2024-04-26 11:57:33 +0000glguy(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-26 11:58:17 +0000 <ncf> (,) a b is (a, b) (pair type) and (->) a b is a -> b (function type)
2024-04-26 11:58:47 +0000 <nij-> I see. In math this is just x and ->.
2024-04-26 11:58:56 +0000 <tomsmeding> well, a x - and a -> -
2024-04-26 11:58:57 +0000 <nij-> Delaying evaluation, or (un)currying
2024-04-26 11:59:12 +0000 <nij-> hom tensor adjunction
2024-04-26 11:59:38 +0000 <nij-> Any other .. that's useful, and particularly only "works in CompSci"?
2024-04-26 11:59:43 +0000Square(~Square@user/square)
2024-04-26 12:00:53 +0000TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Excess Flood)
2024-04-26 12:01:14 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-26 12:01:54 +0000TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2024-04-26 12:01:59 +0000 <ncf> not sure what you mean by that
2024-04-26 12:02:25 +0000TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Excess Flood)
2024-04-26 12:03:27 +0000 <nij-> Hmm.. I'm just trying out my luck to see if we have more intereting adjunctions. And since ,-> adjunctions show up elsewhere, my curiousity doesn't stop here :D
2024-04-26 12:04:07 +0000fedir(~fedir@188.191.238.23)
2024-04-26 12:04:26 +0000tomsmedingwrites lots of haskell code, including interesting type trickery, without properly knowing what an adjunction is
2024-04-26 12:05:53 +0000 <nij-> tomsmeding Yeah, I'm just curious xD
2024-04-26 12:06:02 +0000TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2024-04-26 12:06:05 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc76fc9e8da7e9a4142b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-04-26 12:06:33 +0000 <jackdk> Near as I can tell from https://hackage.haskell.org/package/adjunctions-4.4.2/docs/Data-Functor-Adjunction.html , it's just (r,) and (r ->), and various lifting instances
2024-04-26 12:07:15 +0000 <ncf> yeah adjunctions between hask and hask are not immensely interesting
2024-04-26 12:07:39 +0000 <jackdk> the Representable superclass is good fun though
2024-04-26 12:08:12 +0000mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-04-26 12:08:33 +0000 <nij-> In math point of view, the functors F and G are adjoint (i.e. form an adjunction pair) if they are "invertible" to each other "up to 2-functors (i.e. functors between functors)" .
2024-04-26 12:08:47 +0000 <ncf> but e.g. the free monoid functor [] can be seen as a left adjoint to the forgetful functor from the category of monoids to the category of sets (or hask)
2024-04-26 12:08:54 +0000 <nij-> Anyway, it's a very natural generalization of inverse functors.
2024-04-26 12:09:24 +0000 <nij-> ncf Oh right, those too!
2024-04-26 12:09:24 +0000 <ncf> up to 2-morphisms*
2024-04-26 12:09:42 +0000 <nij-> structuralizing and forgetting pair
2024-04-26 12:10:06 +0000 <nij-> (Yeah.. ncf, I just think 2-mors are too much a jargon for this channel.)
2024-04-26 12:10:17 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:a359:eeea:f982:7525)
2024-04-26 12:10:26 +0000 <fedir> What's wrong?https://i.imgur.com/0LoCDJt.png
2024-04-26 12:10:28 +0000 <ncf> better than incorrect jargon!
2024-04-26 12:10:53 +0000 <ncf> fedir: use :{ and :} to delimit multi-line definitions in ghci
2024-04-26 12:11:09 +0000 <ncf> or semicolons
2024-04-26 12:11:24 +0000 <geekosaur> fedir, ghci doesn't know how to group the defining equations together by itself, as ncf says you must put them on one line or use :{ :} to group them
2024-04-26 12:11:29 +0000nij-(~NPC@c-73-238-75-2.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients)
2024-04-26 12:11:51 +0000 <fedir> Thanks!
2024-04-26 12:16:51 +0000fedir(~fedir@188.191.238.23) (Quit: fedir)
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2024-04-26 14:30:14 +0000 <yin> just use ghcid tbh
2024-04-26 14:31:50 +0000chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-26 14:32:43 +0000 <yin> ghcid --warnings --no-status --run --clear --no-height-limit myfile.hs
2024-04-26 14:34:19 +0000chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
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2024-04-26 15:12:15 +0000fkv24(~fkv24@188.191.238.23)
2024-04-26 15:17:54 +0000 <ski> @quote /bin/ls
2024-04-26 15:17:54 +0000 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
2024-04-26 15:20:11 +0000fkv24(~fkv24@188.191.238.23) (Quit: fkv24)
2024-04-26 15:23:28 +0000 <tomsmeding> that quote was indeed referenced :)
2024-04-26 15:24:09 +0000 <EvanR> it's crazy how they can fit so many lists of files in /bin/ls
2024-04-26 15:24:16 +0000 <EvanR> serious compression tech
2024-04-26 15:25:21 +0000 <ncf> on some OSes they're actually stored on your filesystem directly
2024-04-26 15:25:34 +0000 <tomsmeding> have you considered how many integers are in 'Integer -> Integer'
2024-04-26 15:32:12 +0000tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-04-26 15:32:49 +0000chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-26 15:33:08 +0000 <Inst> this is dumb
2024-04-26 15:33:16 +0000 <Inst> my cell phone is almost out of battery, it's been lost
2024-04-26 15:33:26 +0000 <Inst> welp, wrong channel, sorry
2024-04-26 15:33:37 +0000 <EvanR> probably for the best
2024-04-26 15:33:56 +0000 <EvanR> between traffic accidents and misinformation and serious lack of haskell, phones suck
2024-04-26 15:34:54 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1)
2024-04-26 15:36:02 +0000 <Inst> EvanR: the situation is ridiculous, I'm trying to figure out how to hack into my phone via the VPS app to turn on Find My and location services so I can call the police on the taxi driver who ran off with my phone
2024-04-26 15:36:14 +0000fkv24(~fkv24@188.191.238.23)
2024-04-26 15:36:58 +0000 <EvanR> there was an article recently about 2FA and how to recover from losing your phone
2024-04-26 15:37:10 +0000 <EvanR> which is often one way or another the way you authenticate
2024-04-26 15:37:58 +0000 <Inst> i'm pissed off because i'm calling the phone once in a while to turn it on, then ss -t on my VPN server
2024-04-26 15:38:03 +0000 <Inst> and geolocating my IP
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2024-04-26 20:03:29 +0000 <yin> EvanR: i run ghc on my phone :)
2024-04-26 20:04:41 +0000AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.161.189) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-26 20:05:02 +0000 <EvanR> I'm jelly
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2024-04-26 20:35:22 +0000 <monochrom> Don't get jelly, get even! Run ghc on your watch. >:)
2024-04-26 20:35:40 +0000 <monochrom> VR headset OK too. :)
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2024-04-26 20:44:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: if you make ghc use less memory
2024-04-26 20:44:56 +0000euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-04-26 20:45:17 +0000 <monochrom> I know, we just need 16-bit GHC. >:)
2024-04-26 20:45:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> lol
2024-04-26 20:46:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> although, if running `ghc --version` counts, that uses just a little less than 100 MB of memory
2024-04-26 20:46:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> (this is supposed to be funny)
2024-04-26 20:47:25 +0000Guest49(~Guest49@24.144.1.228)
2024-04-26 20:47:41 +0000 <monochrom> Back then when MLton performed whole-program optimizations and required 128MB, it was a big deal, it was like "only your school server can handle it".
2024-04-26 20:47:46 +0000 <int-e> monochrom: need hugs?
2024-04-26 20:48:15 +0000 <monochrom> Oh! That's a good idea. Running hugs on your watch first.
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2024-04-26 22:57:59 +0000 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> I sometimes use Haskell on my phone, too!
2024-04-26 22:58:00 +0000 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> It's on 8.10.7 rn (upgradable to 9.2.5-1) but Termux fills up 18GB of my phone's storage mostly due to useless packages I installed in the past. Planning to wipe & reinstall, though.
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