| 2024-04-06 00:00:04 +0200 | <sm> | alright, I can't and shouldn't stop you, but let's not keep saying there's a "war" |
| 2024-04-06 00:00:26 +0200 | <sclv> | they ended because everyone agreed to be normal about things |
| 2024-04-06 00:01:38 +0200 | <Inst> | i mean that re cabal-stack, i learned haskell with cabal partisans and really ignored stack most of the time |
| 2024-04-06 00:02:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it's around 50-50 |
| 2024-04-06 00:02:09 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and really not worth arguing about |
| 2024-04-06 00:03:14 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm not going to argue about it, but fragmented build system / tooling is and was a mess, even though it was sort of a cabal victory, you also have the folks who moved off to nix |
| 2024-04-06 00:03:49 +0200 | <sm> | victory is a matter of opinion. I'd say evolution is ongoing. |
| 2024-04-06 00:03:53 +0200 | <shapr> | nix uses cabal to build |
| 2024-04-06 00:04:03 +0200 | <shapr> | but stackage snapshots for library versions |
| 2024-04-06 00:04:14 +0200 | <Inst> | just incredible fragmentation in the ecosystem, sometimes more trouble than it's worth |
| 2024-04-06 00:04:25 +0200 | <yushyin> | as long as projects have a cabal file in the repo and reasonable version bounds, I personally don't care what build tool is used |
| 2024-04-06 00:04:57 +0200 | <shapr> | inst: is there something specific you'd want improved? |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:33 +0200 | <Inst> | the one thing I'd love, tbh, would be a network package in base |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:35 +0200 | <shapr> | my fun thing is using GHC runtime coverage to improve property based tests |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | Inst, you're so controversial |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:44 +0200 | <shapr> | Inst: propose it? push it? |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:50 +0200 | <shapr> | build a posse? :-D |
| 2024-04-06 00:05:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | I'm calling the ny post on you |
| 2024-04-06 00:06:01 +0200 | <int-e> | depend on `network`? |
| 2024-04-06 00:06:19 +0200 | <int-e> | all of these are largely non-issues painted in the most negative light possible |
| 2024-04-06 00:06:45 +0200 | <int-e> | to what end I do not know |
| 2024-04-06 00:06:52 +0200 | <shapr> | I wish CloudHaskell had let me do Erlang things, but I never had the motivation to go fix it myself |
| 2024-04-06 00:08:04 +0200 | <EvanR> | fear uncertainty and doubt in haskell, furthering the interests of agents of chaos |
| 2024-04-06 00:08:26 +0200 | <Rembane> | shapr: The whole concept was really cool though! |
| 2024-04-06 00:08:41 +0200 | vhsconnect | (~vhs@81-233-2-46-no600.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-04-06 00:08:53 +0200 | <sm> | as a programmer, I object to having to learn and manage two separate "import systems" - one getting the right packages in scope, two getting the right modules in scope. |
| 2024-04-06 00:08:54 +0200 | <shapr> | yeah CloudHaskell was really cool. I especially liked the part about shipping types across the wire for use on the other end |
| 2024-04-06 00:09:29 +0200 | <Rembane> | shapr: That's the catch, right? |
| 2024-04-06 00:09:54 +0200 | <shapr> | it's certainly required |
| 2024-04-06 00:11:06 +0200 | <Inst> | because, end of the day, which one am i supposed to use? there's like 20 different network packages just for downloading a file, and more than 3 in stackage |
| 2024-04-06 00:12:03 +0200 | <shapr> | I do wish we had library curation, some sort of recommended set |
| 2024-04-06 00:12:29 +0200 | <shapr> | for example, I never got fgl to work, but algebraic graphs was easy for me, so that would be my recommendation |
| 2024-04-06 00:12:46 +0200 | <shapr> | Actually, I'd want curation with usage examples |
| 2024-04-06 00:12:48 +0200 | <sm> | s/two import systems/*three* import systems - the right compiler, the right packages, the right modules/ |
| 2024-04-06 00:12:56 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc gabriella gonzalez had her site on github for that |
| 2024-04-06 00:13:16 +0200 | <shapr> | yeah, that's true. I'm using nix to run our tests with several different versions of GHC (credit to exarkun for writing that, thanks! ) |
| 2024-04-06 00:13:54 +0200 | <shapr> | Which gabriella site? |
| 2024-04-06 00:14:56 +0200 | <shapr> | I recently found out about juhp's hkgr from reading https://github.com/tonyday567/checklist |
| 2024-04-06 00:15:03 +0200 | <Inst> | this was good... 2 years ago |
| 2024-04-06 00:15:04 +0200 | <Inst> | https://github.com/Gabriella439/post-rfc/blob/main/sotu.md |
| 2024-04-06 00:16:12 +0200 | <shapr> | Oh yeah, that is a good resource |
| 2024-04-06 00:18:51 +0200 | <Inst> | the issue i bring up with networking, though, is, if i simply want to get a file from the interwebs, there's like 20 different libraries for it, all with different interfaces, build on different models, and i don't know wwhich ones are performant, and which ones are not |
| 2024-04-06 00:19:13 +0200 | <sm> | which are the 3 in stackage ? |
| 2024-04-06 00:19:39 +0200 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-04-06 00:20:01 +0200 | <yushyin> | you can ask here for recommendations, i guess |
| 2024-04-06 00:20:02 +0200 | tri | (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 00:20:45 +0200 | <Inst> | i mean i have my own choice, it's probably suboptimal, but it's irritating |
| 2024-04-06 00:20:58 +0200 | <sm> | stackage LTS that is at least a first layer of curation. I see http-conduit, http-download, ... ? |
| 2024-04-06 00:21:43 +0200 | <sm> | I bet there's more than 3 in there actually |
| 2024-04-06 00:22:59 +0200 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HTTP | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http2 | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-client-tls | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-conduit | https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-22.15/http-download-0.2.1.0/Network-HTTP-Download.html | https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-22.15/http-io-streams-0.1.7.0/Network-Http-Client.html |
| 2024-04-06 00:23:02 +0200 | <Inst> | not going to keep going |
| 2024-04-06 00:24:32 +0200 | <sm> | Yes, a curation task as always. http-conduit was considered a safe bet for a while, handling tls etc. |
| 2024-04-06 00:24:48 +0200 | <Inst> | yeah, i went there |
| 2024-04-06 00:25:07 +0200 | <sm> | now we have 4+ streaming libs which probably all do it |
| 2024-04-06 00:25:07 +0200 | <Inst> | it also doesn't look that well for hackage, i.e, there's 3-4k packages being maintained |
| 2024-04-06 00:25:27 +0200 | <sm> | Hackage is the everything repo, like github |
| 2024-04-06 00:25:35 +0200 | <Inst> | a huge number of them are clones of each other with variations that do some basic capability |
| 2024-04-06 00:25:49 +0200 | <shapr> | that's why I want a reviews+examples site |
| 2024-04-06 00:26:52 +0200 | <Inst> | hmmm |
| 2024-04-06 00:26:54 +0200 | <Inst> | k |
| 2024-04-06 00:26:58 +0200 | <sm> | let's add comments to flora |
| 2024-04-06 00:27:29 +0200 | <shapr> | I like that idea, but we gotta ask Hecate |
| 2024-04-06 00:27:36 +0200 | <sm> | bah why |
| 2024-04-06 00:27:54 +0200 | <shapr> | I mean, we could just put up a PR |
| 2024-04-06 00:27:56 +0200 | <sm> | just quietly quietly add them |
| 2024-04-06 00:27:58 +0200 | <shapr> | haha |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:01 +0200 | <shapr> | I like it! |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:10 +0200 | <Inst> | also that'd have the problem that people would get upset at negative reviews |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:23 +0200 | shapr | shrugs |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:27 +0200 | <Hecate> | shapr: oi |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:32 +0200 | <Hecate> | sm: oi oi oi |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:33 +0200 | <sm> | and spam. But, it's needed |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:36 +0200 | <shapr> | if the negative review says "this doesn't work, here's some code to show you what I mean" |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:39 +0200 | <shapr> | then I'm okay with that |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:40 +0200 | <sm> | every app store does it |
| 2024-04-06 00:28:45 +0200 | <shapr> | salut Hecate, ca va? |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:15 +0200 | <Hecate> | God kväll |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:25 +0200 | <shapr> | Inst: I agree, I often don't know which library to use when I'm doing something unfamiliar |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:28 +0200 | <Hecate> | shapr: ça va pas trop mal, merci. Et toi ? |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:40 +0200 | <shapr> | Hecate: jättebra ;-) |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:44 +0200 | <shapr> | pas mal! |
| 2024-04-06 00:29:52 +0200 | <Inst> | btw who is handling hackage? |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:01 +0200 | <shapr> | I got to speak my pitiful high school French to the dentist assistant yesterday, that was fun |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:10 +0200 | <Inst> | it has a bias for libraries that start with numbers |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:15 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm glad no one has tried to game the system yet |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:20 +0200 | <shapr> | there have been some games |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:25 +0200 | <shapr> | name squatting and the like |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:34 +0200 | <shapr> | the gamers got a talking to |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:46 +0200 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/browse |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:49 +0200 | <shapr> | Inst: you could be one of those who handles hackage! |
| 2024-04-06 00:30:50 +0200 | <Hecate> | shapr: in MA? damn, interesting |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:04 +0200 | <shapr> | Hecate: lots of imports / expats in the Boston area |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:10 +0200 | <Hecate> | shapr: haha, I see |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:20 +0200 | <shapr> | Sometimes I get to hear languages I don't recognize! That makes me very happy. |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:30 +0200 | <Inst> | i'd love to, but would need to "get gud", as the kids say |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:46 +0200 | <Inst> | i hate haddock btw and wish i were competent enough to rework it |
| 2024-04-06 00:31:48 +0200 | <shapr> | nah, it's just boring work |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:02 +0200 | <sm> | Inst, you can help Hecate do that |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:07 +0200 | <shapr> | being a hackage admin is just detail stuff |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:17 +0200 | <Inst> | uhhh |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:36 +0200 | <Inst> | bleh, i should get my github working again |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:49 +0200 | <Inst> | hackage currently defaults to alphabetical order on browse |
| 2024-04-06 00:32:50 +0200 | <shapr> | You have good ideas, just gotta pick one and push it |
| 2024-04-06 00:33:11 +0200 | <Inst> | comparable package repos default to sorting on latest upload |
| 2024-04-06 00:33:21 +0200 | <Inst> | thank you for the encouragement |
| 2024-04-06 00:33:59 +0200 | <shapr> | Inst: write a blog post about the one that interests you most? |
| 2024-04-06 00:34:10 +0200 | <shapr> | I got a PR into cabal not too long ago (with exarkun ) |
| 2024-04-06 00:34:17 +0200 | <shapr> | I bet you can get a PR into hackage for default sorting? |
| 2024-04-06 00:34:37 +0200 | <Inst> | will write a note to self |
| 2024-04-06 00:35:07 +0200 | hiredman | (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) |
| 2024-04-06 00:35:32 +0200 | <Inst> | that's just a really minor quality of life issue |
| 2024-04-06 00:36:23 +0200 | <shapr> | you can fix it! |
| 2024-04-06 00:37:56 +0200 | <sm> | I will upvote that PR |
| 2024-04-06 00:38:55 +0200 | <Inst> | https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server |
| 2024-04-06 00:39:13 +0200 | <sm> | in the larger scheme of things, there's a choice of do you want to invest time in hackage or flora |
| 2024-04-06 00:39:37 +0200 | <sm> | and/or what is a good future path for these |
| 2024-04-06 00:41:13 +0200 | <shapr> | flora is REALLY AWESOME |
| 2024-04-06 00:41:43 +0200 | sudden | (~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 00:42:29 +0200 | <Inst> | whoa, this hand-crafted? |
| 2024-04-06 00:42:31 +0200 | <Inst> | https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/blob/master/hackage-server.cabal |
| 2024-04-06 00:42:36 +0200 | <Inst> | this is hand-crafted? |
| 2024-04-06 00:44:07 +0200 | <sm> | Hecate I wouldn't mind seeing the modules by default on a package page, as on Hackage. I guess that would require a big haddock integration project. |
| 2024-04-06 00:44:59 +0200 | <shapr> | argh, why does haskell-mode in emacs want me to use haskell-mode-jump-to-def-or-tag when I want to use lsp-find-definition ?! |
| 2024-04-06 00:45:26 +0200 | <shapr> | I thought I had a haskell-mode-hook that fixed this *frustration* |
| 2024-04-06 00:45:43 +0200 | amjoseph | (~amjoseph@static-198-44-128-146.cust.tzulo.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-04-06 00:46:05 +0200 | amjoseph | (~amjoseph@static-198-44-128-146.cust.tzulo.com) |
| 2024-04-06 00:46:30 +0200 | <Inst> | oh, looks like happstack |
| 2024-04-06 00:46:39 +0200 | shapr | has PTSD flashbacks |
| 2024-04-06 00:46:45 +0200 | <shapr> | stop saying that name! |
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| 2024-04-06 01:39:51 +0200 | <Inst> | shapr, sm, regarding flora |
| 2024-04-06 01:40:03 +0200 | <Inst> | github has a policy against viral code, right? |
| 2024-04-06 01:40:59 +0200 | <Inst> | they don't enforce it |
| 2024-04-06 01:54:19 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
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| 2024-04-06 01:59:45 +0200 | <Inst> | ugh, this really sucks |
| 2024-04-06 02:00:00 +0200 | <Inst> | it'd be really cool to have haddock be able to automatically generate examples of code, but guess what? |
| 2024-04-06 02:00:14 +0200 | <Inst> | massive security hole :( |
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| 2024-04-06 04:22:28 +0200 | gaff | (~gaff@49.207.205.255) |
| 2024-04-06 04:23:40 +0200 | <gaff> | I have this type defined: `newtype Logger a b = Logger { execLogger :: (b, [a]) } `. Is it possible to create Alternative and MonadPlus instances for this type? |
| 2024-04-06 04:25:05 +0200 | <gaff> | Sorry, it should be `newtype Logger a b = Logger ( execLogger :: (b, [a]) )`. |
| 2024-04-06 04:27:22 +0200 | <geekosaur> | that's just a simplified Writer, isn't it? should allow Applicative, Alternative, Monad, and MonadPlus |
| 2024-04-06 04:29:30 +0200 | <c_wraith> | What kind of MonadPlus instance does that give you? what's mempty? |
| 2024-04-06 04:29:48 +0200 | <c_wraith> | err, mzero |
| 2024-04-06 04:30:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | mm, right, need some Monoid constraints |
| 2024-04-06 04:30:21 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I don't think that's enough. you also need a b value |
| 2024-04-06 04:32:53 +0200 | <c_wraith> | you're only getting one of those with a bottom. And I suppose a bottom satisfies the contract, such as it is... |
| 2024-04-06 04:32:59 +0200 | <c_wraith> | But it's not a useful instance |
| 2024-04-06 04:35:01 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Alternative actually has stricter laws, saying the instance should be a monoid. that implies "everything is a bottom" isn't good enough. |
| 2024-04-06 04:36:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | is everything is a bottom not a monoid instance |
| 2024-04-06 04:39:05 +0200 | <c_wraith> | not unless it's an empty data type |
| 2024-04-06 04:39:18 +0200 | <c_wraith> | otherwise the identity laws fail |
| 2024-04-06 04:42:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | bottom * bottom = bottom |
| 2024-04-06 04:42:18 +0200 | <c_wraith> | but that's only the test if the data type is empty |
| 2024-04-06 04:42:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | oh, yeah, then not everything is bottom |
| 2024-04-06 04:47:27 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: I don't think there is a way to define mzero for this MonadPlus instance. |
| 2024-04-06 04:47:45 +0200 | <gaff> | how would you define it? beats me. |
| 2024-04-06 04:47:53 +0200 | <c_wraith> | gaff: I don't see a useful way. |
| 2024-04-06 04:48:47 +0200 | <gaff> | You coudl do this, but that would be largely futile: `mzero = Logger (undefined, [])` |
| 2024-04-06 04:49:14 +0200 | <c_wraith> | and it wouldn't be law-abiding on the Alternative side, as I was talking about above. |
| 2024-04-06 04:50:00 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Alternative tells us it's creating a monoid. That implementation can't obey the monoid requirement that it be an identity |
| 2024-04-06 04:52:34 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: you could easily define a Monoid instance for this type and have `instance Monoid b => Monoid (Logger a b) where mempty = Logger (mempty, []) ...` and in the MonadPlus instance have mzero = mempty, but that doesn't compile either. |
| 2024-04-06 04:53:27 +0200 | <c_wraith> | You can't do that, because Alternative and MonadPlus apply to the higher-kinded type |
| 2024-04-06 04:53:42 +0200 | <c_wraith> | That is, they apply to `Logger a' |
| 2024-04-06 04:53:49 +0200 | <c_wraith> | There's nowhere in that to add a constraint to `b` |
| 2024-04-06 04:53:56 +0200 | <geekosaur> | oh, that was the part I was missing |
| 2024-04-06 04:54:04 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: I see. thank you. |
| 2024-04-06 04:55:00 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: so in general, as this type here shows, it ain't possible to define MonadPlus and Alternative instances for all types? |
| 2024-04-06 04:55:14 +0200 | <c_wraith> | it absolutely is not, even if they have the right kind :) |
| 2024-04-06 04:56:01 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: I see. Unfortunately, this aspect is not mentioned in any of the MoandPlus and Alternative discussions I have read so far. |
| 2024-04-06 04:56:13 +0200 | <EvanR> | the monoidness kind of implies that |
| 2024-04-06 04:56:26 +0200 | <EvanR> | since there are laws there |
| 2024-04-06 04:56:37 +0200 | <c_wraith> | It's kind of implicit in the fact that classes usually come with laws the implementations must obey |
| 2024-04-06 04:57:00 +0200 | <c_wraith> | That wouldn't be much of a limitation if there was always an implementation that obeys the laws |
| 2024-04-06 04:57:05 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870915.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 04:57:45 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: I see. So in this case MonadPlus and Alternative, those laws would tell us what can be made instances of these classes? Intuitively, what would they be? |
| 2024-04-06 04:58:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | this is all feeding into haskell's reputation for bondage and discipline. I can't write whatever the hell I want in an instance? |
| 2024-04-06 04:58:29 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870929.versanet.de) |
| 2024-04-06 04:59:10 +0200 | <c_wraith> | MonadPlus historically hasn't had the greatest story with being consistent there. But Alternative specifically says that it describes a monoid. Then it sort of leaves it up to you to know what that means. |
| 2024-04-06 04:59:49 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I think you're expected to have run into these things in other classes first :) |
| 2024-04-06 05:00:51 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: In this case of Logger type, even the operation (<|>) doesn't make any sense. I mean intuitively what in the world would that be, you know? |
| 2024-04-06 05:01:27 +0200 | <c_wraith> | gaff: In the specific case of Logger... yeah. What *does* that mean? |
| 2024-04-06 05:01:46 +0200 | <c_wraith> | FWIW, that's why laws are often in terms of the interactions between multiple operations |
| 2024-04-06 05:02:22 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: it doesn't mean anything sensible unless you can cook up something on your own, which would invariably make no sense. |
| 2024-04-06 05:03:38 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I think this is also an area why Haskell's type system is doing a lot of underrated work. It's rejecting a lot of "just make it work" implementations before anyone else has to run into them. |
| 2024-04-06 05:03:49 +0200 | <c_wraith> | an area *where* |
| 2024-04-06 05:03:57 +0200 | <gaff> | yes |
| 2024-04-06 05:06:24 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: you mentioned earlier that Alternative says it describes a monoid. The Alternative class definition starts off this way: `class Applicative f => Alternative f where ... ` I didn't see any mention of Monoid anywhere. Are you implying that the Monoid stuff is implicit in the Alternative laws? |
| 2024-04-06 05:07:01 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Oh, I'm looking at the docs: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/GHC-Base.html#t:Alternative "A monoid on applicative functors." |
| 2024-04-06 05:08:23 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: Ah, I see that now. Thank you! |
| 2024-04-06 05:09:14 +0200 | <gaff> | You could easily define Alternative for Either I think. |
| 2024-04-06 05:10:47 +0200 | <c_wraith> | It still gives you trouble with what to do with `Right 5' <|> `Right 7`. |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:07 +0200 | <c_wraith> | There *are* things you can do, but none of them are obviously right |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | > Right 5 <|> Right 7 |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:17 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:17 +0200 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M458786900715... |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:17 +0200 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved. |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | cmon |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:33 +0200 | <c_wraith> | You can use a First or a Last style implementation |
| 2024-04-06 05:11:52 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Both are valid, but neither one is more obviously correct than the other |
| 2024-04-06 05:12:24 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: I see. Well, in case of Maybe, you do have Just 5 <|> Just 10 = Just 5 I think (not sure). |
| 2024-04-06 05:12:41 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Looks like Either does have a First-like instance |
| 2024-04-06 05:12:48 +0200 | <c_wraith> | So I'm sure Maybe does too |
| 2024-04-06 05:13:56 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: Maybe is listed as having an instance of Alternative, but I don't see Either listed there. |
| 2024-04-06 05:14:09 +0200 | <c_wraith> | > Right 5 <|> Right 7 :: Either String Int |
| 2024-04-06 05:14:10 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Right 5 |
| 2024-04-06 05:14:17 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Well, *something* defined one! :) |
| 2024-04-06 05:14:30 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: :) |
| 2024-04-06 05:15:47 +0200 | <gaff> | it isnt there in ghc 8.10.4 |
| 2024-04-06 05:15:54 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Huh. Yeah, that's not in an obvious place. Not sure where lambdabot's getting it |
| 2024-04-06 05:16:42 +0200 | <c_wraith> | this is the downside to lambdabot having a lot of libraries imported by default |
| 2024-04-06 05:17:56 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: One of the ideas people talk about in favour of using Alternative or MonadPlus is that it makes the code more general and not specific to a monad. But they don't mention that you can't define instances for these for all monads! |
| 2024-04-06 05:20:17 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 05:23:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | great episode in the story of not using stuff just because it's there |
| 2024-04-06 05:23:38 +0200 | <EvanR> | at least wait until there's a good reason |
| 2024-04-06 05:23:43 +0200 | <c_wraith> | In fact, you'll find APIs tend to move away from that sort of thing. |
| 2024-04-06 05:24:31 +0200 | <c_wraith> | If you look at Data.Map.lookup in containers 0.1.0.0... man, that was silly. Even when Monad contained fail. Containers stopped working that was long before fail was moved out of the class. |
| 2024-04-06 05:24:31 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ccc:cd00:83d5:fd83:d24c:2c05) |
| 2024-04-06 05:24:38 +0200 | ec_ | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 05:24:56 +0200 | <c_wraith> | stopped working that *way* long before.. |
| 2024-04-06 05:25:55 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@i59F516F4.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 05:26:05 +0200 | <gaff> | EvanR: yeah, wait until there is a good reason. Quite often, there isn't any. |
| 2024-04-06 05:28:08 +0200 | <c_wraith> | A lot of the time, polymorphism doesn't add anything. I'm a big fan of concrete types when there is only one correct way they can work. |
| 2024-04-06 05:28:55 +0200 | <gaff> | EvanR: what you have stated is a tried and tested piece of wisdom, but very often people, including myself, tend to forget it and overdo things. |
| 2024-04-06 05:29:15 +0200 | <c_wraith> | On the other hand, I'm a big fan of polymorphism when it lets the caller have more power or the implementation be simpler. |
| 2024-04-06 05:29:47 +0200 | <c_wraith> | But if the polymorphism works out to something like "this is just an obscure way of writing Either", who is it helping? |
| 2024-04-06 05:32:22 +0200 | <gaff> | c_wraith: one idea behind polymorphism is that it removes code duplication. But you have to first see that such a duplication is indeed a reality. Very often, people tend to jump right into polymorphism before seeing such duplication. |
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| 2024-04-06 10:16:54 +0200 | Unhammer | (~Unhammer@user/unhammer) |
| 2024-04-06 10:19:22 +0200 | _ht | (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) |
| 2024-04-06 10:20:28 +0200 | <Unhammer> | anyone know if there's a simple trick to get ghci to show Text stuff with unicode characters like ö instead of \246? |
| 2024-04-06 10:21:02 +0200 | <Unhammer> | like if my SongClassifier.hs has metal = "döh" :: Text |
| 2024-04-06 10:21:12 +0200 | <Unhammer> | λ> metal |
| 2024-04-06 10:21:14 +0200 | <Unhammer> | "d\246h" |
| 2024-04-06 10:22:42 +0200 | <mauke> | T.putStrLn metal |
| 2024-04-06 10:23:23 +0200 | <Unhammer> | heh well yeah |
| 2024-04-06 10:23:37 +0200 | <Unhammer> | but it's often inside deeper structures |
| 2024-04-06 10:24:32 +0200 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unicode-show-0.1.1.1/docs/Text-Show-Unicode.html |
| 2024-04-06 10:24:58 +0200 | <Unhammer> | oh nice! |
| 2024-04-06 10:35:58 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Unhammer: be aware that unicode-show is a bit of a hack; if replaces anyhing that looks like a (printable) character escape in the Show output with the original unicode character |
| 2024-04-06 10:36:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | regardless of whether it was in a string or not, originally |
| 2024-04-06 10:36:16 +0200 | <Unhammer> | :O |
| 2024-04-06 10:36:19 +0200 | <Unhammer> | ok |
| 2024-04-06 10:36:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | may be suitable for debugging, though :) |
| 2024-04-06 10:36:39 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (Show output is generally only suitable for debugging anyway) |
| 2024-04-06 10:40:13 +0200 | <Unhammer> | yeah, but nice to know about the limitations still |
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| 2024-04-06 20:49:17 +0200 | <tri> | hi, im trying to reimplement Applicative for State monad and saw that i have 2 versions https://paste.tomsmeding.com/sbgB3yWG |
| 2024-04-06 20:49:42 +0200 | <tri> | they are both typechecked. Are they both valid implementation? |
| 2024-04-06 20:51:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (I think you have a typo on line 17, compare what it does to what the comment says) |
| 2024-04-06 20:51:18 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I think the first one violates the Applicative laws? |
| 2024-04-06 20:52:18 +0200 | <geekosaur> | Haskell's type system isn't in general strong enough to validate laws, which is why they're laws rather than code |
| 2024-04-06 20:52:27 +0200 | <geekosaur> | or types |
| 2024-04-06 20:52:43 +0200 | <ncf> | yep that's unlawful |
| 2024-04-06 20:53:23 +0200 | <ncf> | hint: identity law |
| 2024-04-06 20:53:55 +0200 | <Inst_> | wait, do we have controlled imports / exports of typeclasses? |
| 2024-04-06 20:53:57 +0200 | Inst_ | Inst |
| 2024-04-06 20:54:09 +0200 | <Inst> | I know we don't of instances (orphan instances problem, unless that's been fixed) |
| 2024-04-06 20:54:41 +0200 | billchenchina- | (~billchenc@103.152.35.21) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 20:55:52 +0200 | <tri> | geekosaur: yea i meant to write secondState on line 17 |
| 2024-04-06 20:56:32 +0200 | <tri> | it's true. I thought about using the applicative law to check it, but it's been a long time and doing so will take some time, so i decided to ask here |
| 2024-04-06 20:57:12 +0200 | <EvanR> | I'm surprised you didn't first ask chat-gpt! |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:01 +0200 | <tri> | many of haskell stuff is not really understood by gpt |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:03 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage checkers |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:03 +0200 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:05 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers-0.6.0/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Classes.html#v:applicative |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:34 +0200 | maxs | (~maxs@94.45.154.15) |
| 2024-04-06 20:58:35 +0200 | <ski> | Inst : yes |
| 2024-04-06 21:00:15 +0200 | <ski> | tri : `b = ab a' is dead code |
| 2024-04-06 21:00:18 +0200 | <Inst> | okay, so it's just unnecessary / ugly to throw all your code into typeclasses, right? |
| 2024-04-06 21:00:38 +0200 | <tri> | thank you ski |
| 2024-04-06 21:00:56 +0200 | <ski> | both implementations are incorrect |
| 2024-04-06 21:01:16 +0200 | <geekosaur> | Inst, ugly, slow, and may not work if you're misusing them |
| 2024-04-06 21:01:28 +0200 | maxs | (~maxs@94.45.154.15) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-04-06 21:01:34 +0200 | <Inst> | I don't use typeclasses enough |
| 2024-04-06 21:01:46 +0200 | <Inst> | and I realized I kept on getting tripped up by typeclass-based interfaces to libraries |
| 2024-04-06 21:02:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | in particular, if you try to treat typeclasses as if they were OOP classes, things won't typecheck |
| 2024-04-06 21:02:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | sounds like a problem that is solved by working with such libraries more often :) |
| 2024-04-06 21:02:50 +0200 | <ski> | generally, don't use a type class, unless (a) you already have two different instances you want to have; and (b) you want to define operations that are polymorphic constrained in the type class |
| 2024-04-06 21:03:29 +0200 | <Inst> | tomsmeding: it took me 8 hours to figure out how to use cassava without generics :( |
| 2024-04-06 21:03:55 +0200 | tomsmeding | has never used cassava |
| 2024-04-06 21:04:49 +0200 | <monochrom> | I learned and use cassava without generics. The "toy" example that no one else reads helped. |
| 2024-04-06 21:04:54 +0200 | <Inst> | and it took me like 2 years before I figured out aeson's treemap interface was accessed via its typeclass |
| 2024-04-06 21:05:21 +0200 | <geekosaur> | Inst, the orphan instances problem is not something that can be fixed, it is a consequence of typeclass instances being global, which is required by the type system |
| 2024-04-06 21:05:27 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (aeson treemap?) |
| 2024-04-06 21:05:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | so you want to load a CSV file, let me first introduce you to generics |
| 2024-04-06 21:06:20 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (people often think they want local instances, what they really want is ML's functors (parameterized modules) and `open`) |
| 2024-04-06 21:06:23 +0200 | <Inst> | aeson has an object type that's a map over a sum type of JSON types |
| 2024-04-06 21:06:45 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.2.1.0/docs/Data-Aeson-KeyMap.html#t:KeyMap ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the functions in that module seem to me enough to work with the thing |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:15 +0200 | ski | wants local `data' types, and local instances for them |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:23 +0200 | <Inst> | yes |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | gimme gimme `data` inside `where` |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:41 +0200 | <monochrom> | Consider "data families" >:) |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | haskell makes little helper data types easy, make them even easier |
| 2024-04-06 21:07:47 +0200 | <ski> | (and, obviously, they ought to be able to reference nonlocal tyvars) |
| 2024-04-06 21:10:47 +0200 | <ski> | (.. so, the local instance also ought to be able to depend on run-time data) |
| 2024-04-06 21:11:25 +0200 | <monochrom> | You can only access Int operations via type classes too. That has never posed a problem. |
| 2024-04-06 21:11:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it's not even true for aeson's KeyMap, it has fromList, lookup, etc. as regular top-level functions |
| 2024-04-06 21:13:10 +0200 | gehmehgeh | gmg |
| 2024-04-06 21:13:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ski: how about a function that passes a local data type down into a recursive call, but the instance on that data type depends on the function argument |
| 2024-04-06 21:13:17 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't that result in incoherence |
| 2024-04-06 21:14:03 +0200 | <ski> | "passes a local data type down into a recursive call" means ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:14:21 +0200 | cawfee | (~root@2406:3003:2077:1c50::babe) |
| 2024-04-06 21:14:36 +0200 | <ski> | you mean polymorphic recursion or something ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:15:54 +0200 | <ski> | foo :: forall a. Eq a => Blah -> ... |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:22 +0200 | <ski> | foo blah = ..(foo @Helper (...) ...).. |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:22 +0200 | <ski> | where |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:23 +0200 | yahb2 | (~yahb2@static.56.27.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:33 +0200 | <ski> | data Helper = ..a.. |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:38 +0200 | <ski> | instance Eq Helper |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:41 +0200 | <ski> | where |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:51 +0200 | <ski> | ... == ... = ... |
| 2024-04-06 21:16:54 +0200 | <ski> | something like that ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:17:25 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc you just want Idris's data anywhere, right? |
| 2024-04-06 21:18:11 +0200 | yahb2 | (~yahb2@user/tomsmeding/bot/yahb2) |
| 2024-04-06 21:18:11 +0200 | ChanServ | +v yahb2 |
| 2024-04-06 21:19:11 +0200 | <ski> | (well, with the body of the definition of `(==)' depending on `blah') |
| 2024-04-06 21:19:48 +0200 | <ski> | anyway .. not really seeing how this would yield incoherence |
| 2024-04-06 21:20:00 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah not quite, let me think |
| 2024-04-06 21:20:57 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 21:21:02 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | hm fun, my idea breaks because stuff in `where` ought (?) not to be in scope in the type signature |
| 2024-04-06 21:21:45 +0200 | <ski> | yea, just like existentials |
| 2024-04-06 21:22:04 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) |
| 2024-04-06 21:22:17 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | i want dis |
| 2024-04-06 21:23:10 +0200 | <ski> | the two things that this gives is (a) not needing to parameterize the data type by nonlocal tyvars; and (b) instances being able to depend on run-time input |
| 2024-04-06 21:23:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and scoping |
| 2024-04-06 21:23:26 +0200 | <ski> | (a) is more a convenience thing. (b) is an expressiveness thing |
| 2024-04-06 21:23:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | scoping is definitely a convenience thing, because you can "just" list all the other things in the module in an export list |
| 2024-04-06 21:24:16 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but if the data type is local to one function it ought to be _local_ to the function, for cleanliness' sake |
| 2024-04-06 21:24:18 +0200 | <ski> | oh, and presumably the instance has to be given together with the `data' (or `newtype') declaration .. maybe that could be relaxed a little bit, dunno |
| 2024-04-06 21:24:31 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 21:25:29 +0200 | <ski> | yea, i guess (a) gives you a reasonability thing in that you're assured that other code can't depend on the type |
| 2024-04-06 21:25:31 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (tangentially, I feel like I would prefer e.g. rust's way of doing public/private: instead of an export list, put some keyword (`pub` for Rust) before every public declaration) |
| 2024-04-06 21:25:41 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-04-06 21:25:59 +0200 | ski | incidentally also wants SML's `local'-`in'-`end', in Haskell |
| 2024-04-06 21:26:12 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | gets more noisy in modules where you want to export everything, but in larger codebases that's rare anyway |
| 2024-04-06 21:26:32 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ski: what does that do? |
| 2024-04-06 21:26:47 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 21:26:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | guessing: local declarations in a set of declarations that get merged into the parent scope? |
| 2024-04-06 21:26:56 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it's `let` at top level iirc? |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:02 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:07 +0200 | <ski> | makes some declarations local to some other declarations. as opposed to `let'-`in', which makes some declarations local to an *expression* |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:12 +0200 | <ski> | yes |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that's essentially a weaker version of the local data types idea |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (but also a bit more general because it's not just data types) |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:32 +0200 | <ski> | (i also want `if'-`then'-`else', and `case'-`of', at the declaration level) |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:35 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:53 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-04-06 21:27:54 +0200 | <ski> | tomsmeding : yea, but it's also useful for normal value declarations |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I can see that |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:18 +0200 | <ski> | instead of going |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:26 +0200 | <ski> | (foo,bar) = (theFoo,theBar) |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:28 +0200 | <ski> | where |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:31 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the top-level conditionals would be on compile-time constants, right? |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:32 +0200 | <ski> | theFoo .. = ... |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:37 +0200 | <ski> | theBar .. = ... |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:42 +0200 | <ski> | ..other stuff.. |
| 2024-04-06 21:28:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah that's very awkward |
| 2024-04-06 21:29:02 +0200 | <ski> | "compile-time constants, right?" -- yes |
| 2024-04-06 21:29:15 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | would that mean that haddock gets to execute code to figure out what the top-level decls are? |
| 2024-04-06 21:29:17 +0200 | <ski> | or, with functors, can depend on the functor parameter |
| 2024-04-06 21:29:50 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2024-04-06 21:29:59 +0200 | <ski> | all branches define the same identifiers |
| 2024-04-06 21:30:09 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ew |
| 2024-04-06 21:30:12 +0200 | <ski> | (this is not conditional compilation for exposing different interfaces) |
| 2024-04-06 21:30:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, that requirement restores sanity, but it's also an awkward requirement |
| 2024-04-06 21:31:15 +0200 | <ski> | why awkward ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:31:44 +0200 | <ski> | oh, also there should be `if'-`then'-`else', and `case'-`of', commands in `do' |
| 2024-04-06 21:31:55 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if you're writing a function that has to return 4 values (in a tuple, say), you have freedom in how you assemble those values before you return them |
| 2024-04-06 21:32:27 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | here with the declarations, you are limited to structured case trees |
| 2024-04-06 21:32:39 +0200 | <ski> | i don't follow |
| 2024-04-06 21:32:58 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | 1sec, people want my attention |
| 2024-04-06 21:33:09 +0200 | <ski> | np |
| 2024-04-06 21:38:52 +0200 | byorgey | (~byorgey@155.138.238.211) (Changing host) |
| 2024-04-06 21:38:52 +0200 | byorgey | (~byorgey@user/byorgey) |
| 2024-04-06 21:40:42 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ski: I guess it's not as bad as I thought; I feel like it's comparable to the hypothetical where if you write a function returning a tuple, at every "return point" you have to write out the whole tuple, you can't pass on a tuple you got from somewhere else |
| 2024-04-06 21:41:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | because (assuming 4 declarations for sake of argument) you have to explicitly write 4 lines, f = ..., g = ..., h = ..., j = ..., in each branch of your case tree |
| 2024-04-06 21:42:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | you can't, say, choose to return ((a,b),c,d) instead of (a,b,c,d) and first produce the (a,b) tuple somehow, and then plug that wholesale in the return tuple |
| 2024-04-06 21:42:43 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 21:42:45 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | because it must be (a,b,c,d), so you have to unpack the (a,b) tuple into a and b, and re-pack them as (a,b,c,d) |
| 2024-04-06 21:43:05 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | maybe you have the exact same problem with tuples in the first place |
| 2024-04-06 21:43:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so maybe ignore what I'm saying |
| 2024-04-06 21:43:12 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 2024-04-06 21:43:46 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-04-06 21:46:01 +0200 | <ski> | "you can't pass on a tuple you got from somewhere else" -- huh ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:47:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if you defined f', g', h' and j' in some `local` block already, say, you have to write 4 separate lines (f = f'; ...; j = j') to "return" those definitions |
| 2024-04-06 21:48:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | you could write fghj = (_, _, _, _) in the `local` block and then you can pass down the tuple wholesale in a single line, but in the end you still have to write out the 4 lines |
| 2024-04-06 21:48:41 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm having difficulty finding a point where this is meaningfully different from how tuples operate in the expression language already |
| 2024-04-06 21:49:04 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so maybe I should stop trying |
| 2024-04-06 21:49:33 +0200 | <ski> | "if you defined f', g', h' and j' in some `local` block already" -- why would you not just directly define `f',`g',`h',`j' in the body, instead ? |
| 2024-04-06 21:50:00 +0200 | <ski> | i'm not really envisaging the use case / situation you have in mind |
| 2024-04-06 21:50:04 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | because you might decide with an if-then-else whether to define them in terms of f', g', h', j' |
| 2024-04-06 21:50:15 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah no I should write out a proper example |
| 2024-04-06 21:51:12 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm not going to do that now, I'm just going to take my difficulty in formulating one in the first place as evidence that you're right and there is no problem : |
| 2024-04-06 21:51:15 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | * :p |
| 2024-04-06 21:51:28 +0200 | polyphem | (~rod@p200300ef2737840025b5ae4e52515c0b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-04-06 21:52:08 +0200 | <ski> | hm .. i guess one might have `DeclarationPuns' |
| 2024-04-06 21:52:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | something like that, yes |
| 2024-04-06 21:54:34 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) |
| 2024-04-06 21:56:01 +0200 | <ski> | (i didn't really follow the tuple stuff, either. of course you can pass on a tuple you got from somewhere else. maybe you meant that you can't do the corresponding thing with declarations, but what would "getting declarations from somewhere else" even mean ? note that we can't really have recursive computations yielding declarations here (unless, i guess, if we have recursive module functors). but perhaps |
| 2024-04-06 21:56:07 +0200 | <ski> | you were thinking of not getting all the identifiers defined in the same place, depending on which branch was taken) |
| 2024-04-06 21:59:13 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square@user/square) |
| 2024-04-06 22:02:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ski: would I be able to do something like this? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Pwd1QyAM |
| 2024-04-06 22:03:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and also this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tIIHWhQB |
| 2024-04-06 22:04:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | this is all that is left of my argument I think |
| 2024-04-06 22:05:22 +0200 | <ski> | sure, that's the point |
| 2024-04-06 22:05:39 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2024-04-06 22:05:42 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ok :) |
| 2024-04-06 22:05:53 +0200 | yeitrafferin | (~user@2a04:4540:7217:ac00:2df5:a77c:945d:95ef) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:00 +0200 | <ski> | especially the `if c3 then (h,j) = ... else h = ...; j = ...' part |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:27 +0200 | <ski> | (the other `if'-`then'-`else's are just on expressions, not on declarations) |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:42 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | fair :D |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:49 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I almost never use pattern bindings |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:52 +0200 | <ski> | you can already do |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:55 +0200 | <ski> | (h,j) |
| 2024-04-06 22:06:57 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | except for small local stuff |
| 2024-04-06 22:07:06 +0200 | <ski> | | ... = (...,...) |
| 2024-04-06 22:07:12 +0200 | <ski> | | otherwise = (...,...) |
| 2024-04-06 22:07:29 +0200 | <ski> | but that can become annoying |
| 2024-04-06 22:07:40 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think I ever do that |
| 2024-04-06 22:07:51 +0200 | ski | has, at times |
| 2024-04-06 22:12:17 +0200 | vgtw_ | (~vgtw@user/vgtw) |
| 2024-04-06 22:12:35 +0200 | vgtw | (~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 22:16:42 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 22:20:10 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
| 2024-04-06 22:21:03 +0200 | zetef | (~quassel@5.2.182.99) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 22:23:08 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-04-06 22:24:25 +0200 | zetef | (~quassel@5.2.182.98) |
| 2024-04-06 22:28:17 +0200 | sadie-sorceress | (~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 2024-04-06 22:29:57 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) |
| 2024-04-06 22:31:19 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if I have this: return' = return . return; (<$$>) = fmap . fmap; (<**>) = liftA2 (<*>) |
| 2024-04-06 22:31:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | am I looking for Compose |
| 2024-04-06 22:33:00 +0200 | <ncf> | yes |
| 2024-04-06 22:33:07 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2024-04-06 22:33:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | why is `Compose (State s) (w,) a` not valid :( |
| 2024-04-06 22:33:45 +0200 | <ncf> | i prefer <<$>> and <<*>> for those though |
| 2024-04-06 22:34:00 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah those are better names |
| 2024-04-06 22:34:04 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I want type-level TupleSections |
| 2024-04-06 22:35:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ah `(,) w` of course |
| 2024-04-06 22:35:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :t Compose (Identity ("hi", True)) |
| 2024-04-06 22:35:52 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2024-04-06 22:35:52 +0200 | <lambdabot> | • Data constructor not in scope: |
| 2024-04-06 22:35:53 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Compose :: Identity ([Char], Bool) -> t |
| 2024-04-06 22:36:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :t Compose (Identity ("hi", True)) |
| 2024-04-06 22:36:09 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Compose Identity ((,) [Char]) Bool |
| 2024-04-06 22:37:22 +0200 | <ski> | @type (<**>) -- not that i like this name |
| 2024-04-06 22:37:23 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b |
| 2024-04-06 22:37:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | ncf already complained :) |
| 2024-04-06 22:38:16 +0200 | <ski> | (i'd prefer `<*>' to be named `<$>', and `<$>' to be named `$>') |
| 2024-04-06 22:38:48 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | hm maybe yes |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:18 +0200 | <ncf> | and ($>) to be named...? |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :t ($>) |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:27 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:27 +0200 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: $> |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:27 +0200 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:37 +0200 | <ski> | itym `<$' ? |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :t Data.Functor.($>) |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:39 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:39 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Functor’ |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:39 +0200 | <lambdabot> | No module named ‘Data’ is imported. |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:44 +0200 | sadie-sorceress | (~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :t (Data.Functor.$>) |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:48 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => f a -> b -> f b |
| 2024-04-06 22:39:54 +0200 | <ncf> | well, flip (<$) |
| 2024-04-06 22:40:22 +0200 | <ski> | that one could be named `$.>' or something |
| 2024-04-06 22:40:48 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | $= |
| 2024-04-06 22:41:00 +0200 | <ski> | (oh, and `(<*>) = liftA2 (,)') |
| 2024-04-06 22:42:34 +0200 | _ht | (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht) |
| 2024-04-06 22:43:37 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-06 22:44:03 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 2024-04-06 22:58:56 +0200 | <Inst> | btw |
| 2024-04-06 22:59:05 +0200 | <Inst> | if i write a randomized quicksort in ST for Vector |
| 2024-04-06 22:59:33 +0200 | <Inst> | am I going to get unwanted caching due to unsafePerformIO use? |
| 2024-04-06 23:00:54 +0200 | gdd | (~gdd@2001:bc8:38ee:100:c8c6:dfff:fe51:8c02) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:02:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | where does the unsafePerformIO come in? |
| 2024-04-06 23:02:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the point of ST is that you don't need unsafePerformIO |
| 2024-04-06 23:02:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | oh you mean for the random seed generation? |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:03 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | a typical trick is this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3ZGP2azB |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:09 +0200 | <tri> | does anyone use haskell with neovim here? i used haskell with vscode before and the there was code action to fix the code according to the suggestion from the lsp. But in neovim, the only code action i've seen so far is the ability to turn off the suggestion |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:21 +0200 | <tri> | so it seems like the lsp in neovim is worse than in vscode |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:28 +0200 | <tri> | unless there is something i dont know |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: the point being to make the computation depend on some important value x in your computation so that unsafeRandomSeed must be recomputed every time |
| 2024-04-06 23:04:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: are you using the built-in lspconfig stuff? |
| 2024-04-06 23:05:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | er, the built-in LSP support with lspconfig |
| 2024-04-06 23:05:28 +0200 | <tri> | hmm im using mason, if that's what you are asking. Sorry im new to neovim |
| 2024-04-06 23:05:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | how did that action show up in vscode? Was it a "lightbulb" icon? |
| 2024-04-06 23:05:43 +0200 | saftl | (~user@p200300f9173af1001d6b7e3ec038aab9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-04-06 23:05:48 +0200 | <tri> | yea something like that iirc |
| 2024-04-06 23:06:05 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: with mason-lspconfig.nvim? |
| 2024-04-06 23:06:48 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if yes, then you're indeed using the built-in LSP support |
| 2024-04-06 23:06:59 +0200 | <tri> | let me check |
| 2024-04-06 23:06:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (as opposed to an independent LSP client implementation such as coc or ALE) |
| 2024-04-06 23:07:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the built-in nvim lsp client support doesn't support code lenses, nor custom commands, so if the thing was actually a code lens or a custom command, then it will not show up in nvim |
| 2024-04-06 23:08:06 +0200 | <tri> | yea i see mason-lspconfig.nvim in my config ifle |
| 2024-04-06 23:08:08 +0200 | <tri> | file* |
| 2024-04-06 23:08:10 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | code actions do, with <cmd>vim.lsp.buf.code_action() (bound to <space>ca in the suggested bindings) |
| 2024-04-06 23:08:53 +0200 | <tri> | tomsmeding: i action use that code action that you mention |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:05 +0200 | <tri> | vim.lsp.buf.code_action() |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | was this about hlint suggestions? |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:27 +0200 | <tri> | and the most it did was the ability to turn off some suggestion |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:38 +0200 | <tri> | idk what is hlint suggestion |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the things that ghc does not produce :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:09:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | useless stuff like "this could be a newtype" |
| 2024-04-06 23:10:24 +0200 | Luj | (~Luj@2a01:e0a:5f9:9681:ae04:a455:8cc3:9377) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:10:29 +0200 | <tri> | you mean the code analysis shown up in my editor? |
| 2024-04-06 23:10:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | or "rewrite `do x <- <...> ; return (... x ...)` to `(\x -> ...) <$> <...>` |
| 2024-04-06 23:10:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | screenshot? :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:12:42 +0200 | ftweedal | (~ftweedal@211.30.152.176) |
| 2024-04-06 23:13:18 +0200 | <tri> | where do i paste the screenshot to? |
| 2024-04-06 23:13:48 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | curl --data-binary @file.png https://tomsmeding.com/gooi/screenshot.png |
| 2024-04-06 23:13:50 +0200 | hololeap | (~quassel@user/hololeap) (Quit: Bye) |
| 2024-04-06 23:14:52 +0200 | hololeap | (~quassel@user/hololeap) |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:03 +0200 | <tri> | https://tomsmeding.com/vang/tiJrtP/hiworld.png |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:10 +0200 | <tri> | hmm it cannot view |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:15 +0200 | <tri> | it doesn't show |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | you forgot the @ |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:44 +0200 | <tri> | https://tomsmeding.com/vang/Ew7SwZ/hiworld.png |
| 2024-04-06 23:17:49 +0200 | <tri> | wow that's cool tool |
| 2024-04-06 23:18:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | typing '1' doesn't work? |
| 2024-04-06 23:18:27 +0200 | <tri> | it does |
| 2024-04-06 23:18:45 +0200 | <tri> | what im asking is, the most ive seen it works is only turning off hint or apply hint |
| 2024-04-06 23:18:59 +0200 | <tri> | whereas in vscode it could suggest to change my code |
| 2024-04-06 23:18:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | the red diagnostics are errors from GHC, the yellow ones are warnings from GHC, and the bluegreenish ones (like these) are lints from hlint |
| 2024-04-06 23:19:25 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | isn't "apply hint" precisely the same as "change code"? |
| 2024-04-06 23:20:05 +0200 | tomsmeding | has hlint turned off due to not liking its suggestions |
| 2024-04-06 23:21:12 +0200 | <tri> | ah no wait i think i get it |
| 2024-04-06 23:21:23 +0200 | <tri> | thank you |
| 2024-04-06 23:22:46 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | wait the nvim lsp client has support for code lenses??? |
| 2024-04-06 23:23:01 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it's just not listed as a suggested keybinding in the lspconfig readme? |
| 2024-04-06 23:23:21 +0200 | <tri> | hmm no, idk how to describe it correctly but |
| 2024-04-06 23:23:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that's pretty huge underhanded support for a feature :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:00 +0200 | <tri> | simply put, i assume it just have the ability to turn off a hint |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:07 +0200 | <tri> | so that's on me being silly |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:25 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | you expected a different wording, probably |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:48 +0200 | <tri> | also, i run into this bug, and don't know how to fix it in neovim |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:49 +0200 | <tri> | https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/3130 |
| 2024-04-06 23:24:59 +0200 | <tri> | i left a comment at the bottom, can you check? |
| 2024-04-06 23:25:15 +0200 | <tri> | i cannot rename stuff in haskell |
| 2024-04-06 23:25:40 +0200 | <yushyin> | tomsmeding: :h lsp-codelens, i guess it does have support for it |
| 2024-04-06 23:25:54 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: can you paste in a pastebin how you've currently set up hls in your nvim config? |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:07 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yushyin: yes I just found out that `:lua vim.lsp.codelens.refresh()` does stuff |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:15 +0200 | jle` | (~jle`@2603-8001-3b02-84d4-fc90-a9ba-a756-93bd.res6.spectrum.com) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.1) |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:16 +0200 | <tri> | hmmmm i only install hls via mason. I don't have any other config |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:29 +0200 | ftweedal | (~ftweedal@211.30.152.176) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:32 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yushyin: probably my bad for assuming that this is a good overview of the supported features: https://github.com/neovim/nvim-lspconfig?tab=readme-ov-file#suggested-configuration |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:39 +0200 | jle` | (~jle`@2603-8001-3b02-84d4-fc90-a9ba-a756-93bd.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:41 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: how does that look? |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:42 +0200 | sadie-sorceress | (~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 2024-04-06 23:26:54 +0200 | <yushyin> | :D |
| 2024-04-06 23:27:34 +0200 | jle` | (~jle`@2603-8001-3b02-84d4-fc90-a9ba-a756-93bd.res6.spectrum.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-04-06 23:27:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: your question here, using (I think) the correct words, is "how do I set configuration for a language server registered via mason" |
| 2024-04-06 23:27:49 +0200 | <tri> | yes |
| 2024-04-06 23:27:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. this is a question about mason, not about nvim or hls |
| 2024-04-06 23:27:57 +0200 | jle` | (~jle`@2603-8001-3b02-84d4-fc90-a9ba-a756-93bd.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-04-06 23:28:14 +0200 | <tri> | yea let mee google that |
| 2024-04-06 23:28:31 +0200 | <tri> | i didn't know the exact question i was looking for since im new to neovim and both haskell |
| 2024-04-06 23:28:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | in general, language servers expect to be configured by the client (the editor), and it's up to the client to let you enter configuration somewhere |
| 2024-04-06 23:28:51 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:28:52 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I know how to do it with plain lspconfig, but you're using an additional package in between (mason) |
| 2024-04-06 23:30:10 +0200 | Raito_Bezarius | (~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:30:11 +0200 | sadie-sorceress | sydney |
| 2024-04-06 23:30:23 +0200 | sydney | madeleine-sydney |
| 2024-04-06 23:30:33 +0200 | srk | (~sorki@user/srk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-04-06 23:31:09 +0200 | <tri> | hmm i will put this config off to another day, im kinda fried from both neovim and haskell now |
| 2024-04-06 23:31:35 +0200 | madeleine-sydney | (~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host) |
| 2024-04-06 23:31:35 +0200 | madeleine-sydney | (~sadie-sor@user/madeleine-sydney) |
| 2024-04-06 23:31:37 +0200 | <tri> | in the mean time i will just use vim replace word function |
| 2024-04-06 23:32:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | tri: do you have lines like require("lspconfig").hls.setup {} in your config? |
| 2024-04-06 23:32:40 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (the important part is the `setup {}`) |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:19 +0200 | <tri> | a search of .hls doesn't give any result |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:26 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps without the . ? |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:47 +0200 | <tri> | no either |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | how are you telling mason to load hls :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:33:51 +0200 | srk | (~sorki@user/srk) |
| 2024-04-06 23:34:11 +0200 | <tri> | fwiw, i have require('mason-lspconfig').setup |
| 2024-04-06 23:34:34 +0200 | tomsmeding | is looking at https://github.com/williamboman/mason-lspconfig.nvim?tab=readme-ov-file#setup |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:19 +0200 | <tri> | I just have mason install hls and that's it |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | HOW :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:28 +0200 | <tri> | hls auto turned on when im in a haskell file |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:30 +0200 | <tri> | ah |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:32 +0200 | <tri> | using :Mason |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:35 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I've asked like 5x now :p |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:37 +0200 | <tri> | sorry |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:51 +0200 | <tri> | using :Mason then it shows the dialog to scroll over different lsp's |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 2024-04-06 23:35:57 +0200 | <tri> | then i picked hls |
| 2024-04-06 23:38:27 +0200 | <tri> | btw tomsmeding |
| 2024-04-06 23:38:57 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I suspect you'll need to manually add hls as shown in that Setup section of the mason-lspconfig readme if you want to add settings |
| 2024-04-06 23:39:03 +0200 | <tri> | so i've been reading all about functor, applicative, monad, reader, state up until monad transformer |
| 2024-04-06 23:39:40 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | then it would look like: require("lspconfig").hls.setup { settings = { haskell = { plugin = { rename = ... } } } } |
| 2024-04-06 23:39:43 +0200 | <tri> | does it make sense to know how to implement all functor, applicative, and monad instance of, say, the State monad? |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:01 +0200 | <tri> | i only know how to use it intuitively |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:18 +0200 | <tri> | i know how to use a reader |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:19 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I think working with multiple different monads, and implementing all the basic ones, is very useful for getting an understanding of them |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so yes, that's good practice |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:30 +0200 | <tri> | but idk how to implement the applicative, monad, and functor instance of it |
| 2024-04-06 23:40:50 +0200 | <tri> | hmm ok |
| 2024-04-06 23:41:26 +0200 | <tri> | i quickly glanced over those sections, so i only know how to use them, not know how to implement these instance for a state or reader monad |
| 2024-04-06 23:41:34 +0200 | <tri> | i'll have to go back then |
| 2024-04-06 23:41:49 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | understanding how the basic monads (reader, writer, state, either, etc.) correspond with their newtypes, and how their instances work, will make it easier to make sense of monad transformer stacks |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:16 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | for example, do you know what the difference is between `StateT s (Either e) a` and `ExceptT e (State s) a`? |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | they both combine a "state" effect and an "exception" effect |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but in a different way! |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:41 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl StateT s (Either e) a |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:42 +0200 | <lambdabot> | s -> Either e (a, s) |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:49 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:49 +0200 | <lambdabot> | s -> (Either e a, s) |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:57 +0200 | <tri> | yea definitly no |
| 2024-04-06 23:42:58 +0200 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, science doesn't answer the why, only how... oh |
| 2024-04-06 23:43:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | this is what you get when you unwrap the newtypes |
| 2024-04-06 23:43:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | being able to read this, and imagine how the corresponding Functor/Applicative/Monad instances will behave, allows you to make sense of those monad transformer stacks |
| 2024-04-06 23:44:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | personally I find e.g. `s -> Either e (a, s)` understandable (after a few seconds of staring at it), but `StateT s (Either e) a` completely opaque |
| 2024-04-06 23:44:23 +0200 | <tri> | ok, gotta take another few months to work on these again |
| 2024-04-06 23:45:09 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so if the monad transformer stack is mildly complicated, or I can't figure out how to write it precisely, I "just" write down the underlying representation and write the F/A/M instances myself |
| 2024-04-06 23:45:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | once you have a good feel for these monads, writing those instances becomes fairly straightforward |
| 2024-04-06 23:45:38 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and then you have freedom in your reign over the monads ;) |
| 2024-04-06 23:45:39 +0200 | <tri> | ok thank you |
| 2024-04-06 23:46:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that is, if you're interested in knowing more about this |
| 2024-04-06 23:46:45 +0200 | <tri> | i mean if that's the only way to learn and use haskell |
| 2024-04-06 23:46:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | depends on what kind of haskell code you want to write |
| 2024-04-06 23:47:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | not all haskell code needs fancy monads |
| 2024-04-06 23:47:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | but if you look at codebases in the wild, you may encounter some |
| 2024-04-06 23:47:28 +0200 | <tri> | i've already invested a lot of time into this, and now im a bit stuck with monad transformer, so im going back to re-learn the F/A/M |
| 2024-04-06 23:47:35 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 2024-04-06 23:47:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | yeah, my understanding of monad transformers is very much through what I just explained |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:04 +0200 | <tri> | yea i skimmed a lot in Learn Haskell From First Principle to get a sense of these |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so if you want to understand monad transformers, I recommend looking more into this |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:12 +0200 | madeleine-sydney | (~sadie-sor@user/madeleine-sydney) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:26 +0200 | <tri> | the book is really heavy and im so fed up with the wordiness |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:32 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:35 +0200 | <tri> | so now i take a break and read another book |
| 2024-04-06 23:48:40 +0200 | <tri> | to get another perspective |
| 2024-04-06 23:49:09 +0200 | ftweedal | (~ftweedal@211.30.152.176) |
| 2024-04-06 23:50:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | a picture is worth 1000 words, a formula is worth 1000 pictures |
| 2024-04-06 23:50:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | so next time get a book of formulas xD |
| 2024-04-06 23:51:46 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | thing is that a formula worth 1000 pictures often takes as long to understand as looking at all of those 1000 pictures |
| 2024-04-06 23:52:27 +0200 | sadie-sorceress | (~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 2024-04-06 23:52:41 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and/or require you to understand 1000 other formulas first |
| 2024-04-06 23:54:08 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-04-06 23:55:20 +0200 | <Inst> | thanks tomsmeding |
| 2024-04-06 23:58:27 +0200 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-04-06 23:58:46 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
