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2023/11/05

2023-11-05 00:00:46 +0100arjun(~arjun@user/arjun)
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2023-11-05 00:55:57 +0100falafel(~falafel@62.175.113.194.dyn.user.ono.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-11-05 02:25:16 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-dd4f-298a-9c49-a0ed.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-11-05 02:25:39 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-11-05 02:26:01 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-11-05 03:30:52 +0100mhatta(~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp)
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2023-11-05 03:34:00 +0100arjun(~arjun@user/arjun)
2023-11-05 03:45:26 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-11-05 03:50:21 +0100 <Inst> btw, if Haskript were a thing, would traditional Haskellers complain?
2023-11-05 03:50:30 +0100 <Inst> where Haskript =
2023-11-05 03:50:31 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 03:51:11 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-11-05 03:51:12 +0100 <Inst> Community oriented toward building or wrapping libraries for Haskell scripting use, focused on ergonomics and simplicity, with the only concern for traditional Haskell architecture and values being once the script exceeds 500-1000 lines
2023-11-05 03:59:52 +0100qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-11-05 04:05:52 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@178.255.149.135)
2023-11-05 04:06:02 +0100tabemann(~tabemann@12.215.215.61)
2023-11-05 04:06:05 +0100 <L29Ah> so allow unsafePerformIO everywere and that's it?
2023-11-05 04:06:20 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2023-11-05 04:07:33 +0100 <monochrom> This is the problem with "grand visions" such as "ergonomics and simplicity". People have opposite definitions of them.
2023-11-05 04:08:19 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
2023-11-05 04:08:20 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-11-05 04:08:29 +0100 <monochrom> There are people like me who actually consider, for example, unsafePerformIO to be unergonomic and unsimple, because it is so hard to get them to do the right thing.
2023-11-05 04:08:38 +0100 <monochrom> or at least so tricky.
2023-11-05 04:09:11 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-11-05 04:09:28 +0100 <L29Ah> fair
2023-11-05 04:09:35 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250)
2023-11-05 04:10:02 +0100 <L29Ah> Inst: can you show a representative example of Haskript?
2023-11-05 04:10:06 +0100 <monochrom> On Youtube I saw a programmer who converted from Java to APL. He would say that APL is more ergonomic and simpler.
2023-11-05 04:11:10 +0100 <L29Ah> it is, for things like programming contests
2023-11-05 04:11:42 +0100 <L29Ah> APL probably is the language that is tailored to the professional programming sport the most
2023-11-05 04:11:57 +0100 <monochrom> In fact, I bet it is a tautology that every language inventor believes that they invent their language to focus on ergonomics and simplicity.
2023-11-05 04:13:12 +0100 <monochrom> oh and productivity and power and expressivity and a dozen more grand vision buzzwords.
2023-11-05 04:14:30 +0100 <monochrom> Even COBOL fans get to claim "easy to debug because reads like English". That's another way to say ergonomic and simple.
2023-11-05 04:14:58 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2023-11-05 04:21:28 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@178.255.149.135) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-11-05 04:23:19 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e3bc:44ff:b3f7:2dd5)
2023-11-05 04:24:34 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 04:25:21 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-11-05 04:27:16 +0100 <Inst> Haskript is just Haskell written unidiomatically, probably with lots of where clauses and IO, and maybe even with everything in main
2023-11-05 04:29:31 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 04:29:36 +0100 <L29Ah> re your question: haskellers complain about each others' non-idiomatic stuff all the time
2023-11-05 04:30:06 +0100 <L29Ah> for example i find lens unidiomatic
2023-11-05 04:30:30 +0100 <L29Ah> and use tabs exclusively for indentation
2023-11-05 04:30:55 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2023-11-05 04:31:34 +0100 <L29Ah> haskell is not really the language where there's a grand vision on how things get to get done
2023-11-05 04:32:26 +0100 <Inst> It's more that Haskell needs better library APIs for scripting
2023-11-05 04:32:44 +0100 <L29Ah> what APIs?
2023-11-05 04:33:00 +0100 <L29Ah> there are a few libraries for shell-script-like behavior
2023-11-05 04:33:12 +0100 <Inst> I know, Shelly and Turtle, no?
2023-11-05 04:33:23 +0100 <Inst> I just never found Aeson easy to use
2023-11-05 04:33:29 +0100L29Ahdoesn't remember
2023-11-05 04:33:31 +0100 <Inst> There are others, who've gotten to Chapter 27 of RWH
2023-11-05 04:33:40 +0100 <Inst> who have difficulty reading Haskell libraries
2023-11-05 04:33:49 +0100 <L29Ah> decided that zsh is good enough
2023-11-05 04:33:55 +0100 <Inst> setting up a Haskript ghetto for newbies, and picking them up for "real" Haskell once in a while, I think is a positive for the community
2023-11-05 04:35:32 +0100 <L29Ah> you may be interested in xmonad community
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2023-11-05 05:51:35 +0100Ram-Z(Ram-Z@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fe57:d2df) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-11-05 05:53:53 +0100Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com)
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2023-11-05 06:03:45 +0100 <Inst> L29Ah:
2023-11-05 06:03:50 +0100 <Inst> this I'm particularly embarrassed by
2023-11-05 06:03:51 +0100 <Inst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qacjVfxi
2023-11-05 06:04:06 +0100 <Inst> literally "everything in main"
2023-11-05 06:04:59 +0100 <Inst> also, too many operators
2023-11-05 06:05:23 +0100 <Inst> I sort of wish (<$) <*> (undefined :: a -> m a) were idiomatic, though
2023-11-05 06:05:44 +0100 <Inst> and someone pointed out theres' a space leak because of misuse of concurrently
2023-11-05 06:05:58 +0100Lycurgus(~georg@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: leaving)
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2023-11-05 06:48:28 +0100pixelmonk(~pixelmonk@50.205.76.66) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.0)
2023-11-05 06:55:47 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 06:56:16 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-11-05 06:56:38 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-11-05 06:58:01 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c738de.dyn.optonline.net)
2023-11-05 06:58:24 +0100 <thegman> why are the error messages in haskell so...
2023-11-05 06:58:26 +0100 <thegman> strange
2023-11-05 06:59:31 +0100 <thegman> i forgot to add a coma and its explanation was "couldnt match expected type (a1, b1) -> (a, b) with actual type (a0, b0)"
2023-11-05 06:59:34 +0100 <thegman> comma*
2023-11-05 07:00:08 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 07:01:13 +0100 <L29Ah> because replacing a comma with a space in your case probably means replacing a tuple construction with a function application
2023-11-05 07:01:42 +0100 <L29Ah> could be less cryptic if the language demanded parens for application
2023-11-05 07:02:17 +0100 <thegman> it just seems unnessesary to say "couldnt match expected type with actual type" in every single error message
2023-11-05 07:02:39 +0100 <L29Ah> it's not like that in every single error message
2023-11-05 07:02:55 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-11-05 07:03:05 +0100 <thegman> it is in a lot of them
2023-11-05 07:03:13 +0100 <L29Ah> if you got to type errors your code actually parsed well, that's a great success
2023-11-05 07:03:29 +0100 <Lycurgus> same as elsewhite but mutatis mutandis for hs
2023-11-05 07:03:37 +0100 <Lycurgus> *elsewhere
2023-11-05 07:03:45 +0100 <Lycurgus> other langs
2023-11-05 07:03:58 +0100 <Lycurgus> famously
2023-11-05 07:04:45 +0100 <Lycurgus> the basis of a skill which seldom get a lot of general development because of monoglossy
2023-11-05 07:05:50 +0100 <Lycurgus> *gets
2023-11-05 07:06:31 +0100 <Lycurgus> or near monoglossy
2023-11-05 07:07:04 +0100 <Lycurgus> and with a few standard algol like langs
2023-11-05 07:08:06 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2023-11-05 08:26:07 +0100Enrico63(~Enrico63@81.109.143.226) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2023-11-05 08:46:10 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-11-05 08:46:18 +0100 <Inst> erm, just curious
2023-11-05 08:46:32 +0100takuan(~takuan@178.116.218.225)
2023-11-05 08:46:36 +0100 <Inst> how do you split a Haskell program off a console?
2023-11-05 08:50:10 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72b93365d0d304e1b7de813.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 08:51:31 +0100nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-11-05 08:52:35 +0100 <probie> Inst: What do you mean by that?
2023-11-05 08:53:37 +0100 <Inst> let's say, i want a program to be a daemon
2023-11-05 08:53:44 +0100 <Inst> or a graphics program that releases the console after the window opens
2023-11-05 09:02:56 +0100rosco(~rosco@yp-150-69.tm.net.my)
2023-11-05 09:04:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> it might be somewhere like System.IO or GHC.IO
2023-11-05 09:05:26 +0100 <mauke> a real daemon should run in the foreground, managed by some sort of services system
2023-11-05 09:06:03 +0100arjun(~arjun@user/arjun)
2023-11-05 09:07:19 +0100 <mauke> you'd have to use fork(), which isn't really supported in Haskell
2023-11-05 09:08:10 +0100 <mauke> also: reopen stdin/stdout/stderr to /dev/null or some kind of log file; chdir to /; call setsid()
2023-11-05 09:08:25 +0100 <mauke> I'm not sure what that would look like in Haskell
2023-11-05 09:09:27 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-71-193-181-0.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2023-11-05 09:10:06 +0100 <mauke> (fork() because all of this should happen in the child process; the parent should just exit)
2023-11-05 09:15:02 +0100trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
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2023-11-05 10:01:00 +0100idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
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2023-11-05 10:23:45 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 10:25:27 +0100mastarija(~mastarija@141-136-170-90.dsl.iskon.hr)
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2023-11-05 10:27:30 +0100 <mastarija> Is there a way, via some language extension, to "re-define" a list with all the nice syntax sugar like `[ x ]`? I'd like to do a little demo for some students, and defining a list like `data List a = Empty | Cons a (List a)` is not as cool I think :)
2023-11-05 10:28:47 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:ed19:80b6:e70a:c3d) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-11-05 10:29:23 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:1052:6194:3db5:da7a)
2023-11-05 10:29:32 +0100idgaenthinks that syntax is wired in the language
2023-11-05 10:29:56 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 10:30:07 +0100 <mastarija> Yeah. But I was hoping there's something like TypeOperators
2023-11-05 10:30:29 +0100 <probie> mastarija: You can use `OverloadedLists` (https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/overloaded_lists.html), but that won't disallow the syntax from being used to write the old lists
2023-11-05 10:30:31 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-11-05 10:30:53 +0100 <probie> and the types might be intimidating
2023-11-05 10:30:55 +0100mosul(~mosul@user/kantokuen)
2023-11-05 10:31:04 +0100 <probie> % :set -XOverloadedLists
2023-11-05 10:31:04 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2023-11-05 10:31:15 +0100mosul(~mosul@user/kantokuen) (Client Quit)
2023-11-05 10:31:16 +0100 <probie> % :t ["foo", "bar", "baz"]
2023-11-05 10:31:16 +0100 <yahb2> ["foo", "bar", "baz"] ; :: (GHC.Exts.Item l ~ [Char], GHC.Exts.IsList l) => l
2023-11-05 10:31:36 +0100 <mastarija> Hm.. yeah. Not really what I'm looking for xD
2023-11-05 10:32:17 +0100 <mastarija> Agda is nice in that regard, everything is "open" to you in a way. Haskell is like that too, but it still has some "baked in" things.
2023-11-05 10:32:32 +0100 <mastarija> Less than other languages though.
2023-11-05 10:33:48 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:1052:6194:3db5:da7a) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-11-05 10:34:54 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-11-05 10:34:54 +0100 <int-e> Isn't it easier to point out that [a] is essentially defined as `data [] a = [] | a : [a]` which is standard except for the odd [] and : name? And then you get [a,b,c] as extra syntax sugar.
2023-11-05 10:35:25 +0100 <mastarija> Yeah, that's what I'll do. But I was hoping we can get `[a]` somehow.
2023-11-05 10:35:27 +0100 <int-e> (if you type `:i []` in ghci it will actually spit out that definition though it's a bit of a lie)
2023-11-05 10:35:47 +0100 <mastarija> %:i []
2023-11-05 10:36:02 +0100 <mastarija> % :i []
2023-11-05 10:36:02 +0100 <yahb2> type [] :: * -> * ; data [] a = [] | a : [a] ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Types’ ; instance Applicative [] -- Defined in ‘GHC.Base’ ; instance Eq a => Eq [a] -- Defined in ‘GHC.Classes’ ; instance Funct...
2023-11-05 10:37:05 +0100 <int-e> If you look at GHC.Types you'll find `data List a = [] | a : List a` so clearly there's some magic in play :-)
2023-11-05 10:37:55 +0100 <int-e> (so maybe don't go that deep :-) )
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2023-11-05 11:39:50 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 11:50:59 +0100 <Inst> wow, hahahhaa
2023-11-05 11:51:04 +0100 <Inst> i have my punishment for stuffing everything in main
2023-11-05 11:51:22 +0100 <Inst> i found a bit of code that i have to go through that's 200-300 SLOC and is an IO action abusing where
2023-11-05 11:52:52 +0100 <Inst> nope, it's 400-600 SLOC
2023-11-05 11:52:57 +0100 <Inst> and it's just one do block
2023-11-05 11:52:58 +0100 <Inst> :D
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2023-11-05 11:57:20 +0100[_](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2023-11-05 12:40:44 +0100erty(~user@user/aeroplane)
2023-11-05 12:48:19 +0100andrewboltachev(~andrey@178.141.195.228)
2023-11-05 12:52:18 +0100 <andrewboltachev> Hi. I'm using Twain library to create a server. The endpoint I've created accepts JSON, does some experimental work and should return JSON. For certain inputs, request is terminating silently after 1min without response. Is there any way to access logs for Twain, 'cause I don't see any debug output anywhere on that failure
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2023-11-05 13:06:13 +0100 <[exa]> andrewboltachev: quite often I just do a `strace` on the process to see where it's hanging
2023-11-05 13:06:16 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-11-05 13:06:23 +0100 <[exa]> andrewboltachev: btw just to check, you compile with -threaded, right ?
2023-11-05 13:06:24 +0100todi(~todi@p4fd1a3e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-11-05 13:07:53 +0100 <[exa]> also, anything specific in the "certain" inputs, or is it completely random?
2023-11-05 13:08:30 +0100mrmr1553(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
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2023-11-05 13:10:48 +0100erty(~user@user/aeroplane)
2023-11-05 13:14:30 +0100 <andrewboltachev> [exa]: Very specific inputs. But it's anyway doing quite heavy operations: it's my own parser generator processing JSON I've got from Figma API (Figma, the graphical design tool)
2023-11-05 13:15:06 +0100 <andrewboltachev> [exa]: Now solved that with just: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp-3.3.30/docs/Network-Wai-Handler-Warp.html#g:3 setTimeout
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2023-11-05 13:23:03 +0100 <andrewboltachev> [exa] And yes -threaded is in my package.yaml
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2023-11-05 13:53:49 +0100 <[exa]> andrewboltachev: hm perhaps the parser was hanging somewhere? (might be reading from the input when there wasn't more stuff to be read?)
2023-11-05 13:54:02 +0100 <[exa]> anyway good that timeout solves it :]
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2023-11-05 14:09:46 +0100 <Umeaboy> [exa] GHC compiled and successfully built with ghcup, however HLS failed. I'm now trying to build HLS 1.8.0.0........ So far so good.
2023-11-05 14:10:03 +0100 <Umeaboy> I read this page: https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/support/ghc-version-support.html
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2023-11-05 14:51:59 +0100 <andrewboltachev> [exa]: I've even had "stack overflow" on it once. But it's not the case for this problem — as it took 1min13sec, which is bigger than 1min
2023-11-05 14:55:12 +0100 <[exa]> ah lot of processing then
2023-11-05 14:55:58 +0100 <[exa]> good, I somehow assumed the webservices take like 1s per request max... (might also be the case with twain folks, is it tested that way?)
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2023-11-05 18:06:48 +0100 <andrewboltachev> [exa]: Well what's interesting that's Network.Wai that manages the timeout (it exposes functions called run/runSettings). So it's not Twain: https://github.com/andrewboltachev/matcher/blob/master/app/Main.hs#L27
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2023-11-05 19:53:42 +0100miguelnegrao(~miguelneg@2001:818:dc71:d100:f016:1b9:e7c1:3567)
2023-11-05 19:55:18 +0100 <miguelnegrao> Hi all. Is there a package, github repo or gist where div is defined for Peano natural numbers at the type level defined via induction, e.g., data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat ?
2023-11-05 19:56:00 +0100 <miguelnegrao> The definition of for Lean uses the "less or equal to" relation, which seems a bit tricky to do at the type level.
2023-11-05 19:56:32 +0100 <miguelnegrao> plus, mult, minus, and pow are easy, in comparison
2023-11-05 19:57:22 +0100 <miguelnegrao> I have a version working defining LE return a bool, but it seems quite hard to do proofs with that approach.
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2023-11-05 20:26:29 +0100 <EvanR> drat
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2023-11-05 20:26:34 +0100 <EvanR> they left!
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2023-11-05 20:37:40 +0100 <EvanR> @tell miguelnegrao if you look at the idris standard library you will find an example of a decidable divisibility predicate for natural numbers which can be used to implement division / remainder in a way that is useful to other proofs
2023-11-05 20:37:41 +0100 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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2023-11-05 21:42:44 +0100Tlsx(~rscastilh@187.40.125.21) ()
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2023-11-05 22:37:58 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ()
2023-11-05 22:40:55 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-11-05 22:42:40 +0100 <yin> does haskeel have something like pm2 for node?
2023-11-05 22:43:18 +0100 <yin> or some kind of process manager
2023-11-05 22:45:27 +0100 <exarkun> yin: "some kind of"? sure.
2023-11-05 22:46:00 +0100 <yin> i mean to manage ghc processes
2023-11-05 22:47:15 +0100pixelmonk(~pixelmonk@50.205.76.66) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-11-05 22:48:07 +0100 <geekosaur> ghc processes are native, you use a process manager for native processes, not one for a javascript backend
2023-11-05 22:48:46 +0100 <Hecate> yin: still pm2 https://pm2.keymetrics.io/docs/usage/process-management/#start-any-process-type
2023-11-05 22:50:21 +0100 <yin> geekosaur: ok so systemd I guess
2023-11-05 22:50:30 +0100pixelmonk(~pixelmonk@50.205.76.66)
2023-11-05 22:50:32 +0100 <yin> Hecate: nice, thanks!
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2023-11-05 23:05:18 +0100 <EvanR> Coyoneda f a is some mapping function (b -> a) polymorphic in the return type paired with some f b waiting to be mapped by it. You just have to pick the a. Is the only real example of this in action Coyoneda id
2023-11-05 23:09:28 +0100Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-11-05 23:09:43 +0100 <dolio> What do you mean?
2023-11-05 23:10:20 +0100talismanick(~user@2601:204:ef00:bb0::f34e)
2023-11-05 23:10:21 +0100 <EvanR> ok you could do \x -> Coyoneda snd (7, x). I mean, function returning "whatever type you want" seem to be hard to come up with examples for
2023-11-05 23:11:41 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-11-05 23:11:55 +0100 <EvanR> or I'm just way off
2023-11-05 23:12:15 +0100quintasan(~quassel@quintasan.pl) ()
2023-11-05 23:12:24 +0100quintasan(~quassel@quintasan.pl)
2023-11-05 23:12:28 +0100 <EvanR> a isn't "existential" so I'm trippin
2023-11-05 23:12:32 +0100 <dolio> `Coyoneda f a` has a particular a.
2023-11-05 23:14:33 +0100 <ncf> Coyoneda snd (7, x) is ill-typed
2023-11-05 23:15:05 +0100falafel(~falafel@62.175.113.194.dyn.user.ono.com)
2023-11-05 23:15:18 +0100 <ncf> or i guess it isn't, but the snd doesn't apply to the pair
2023-11-05 23:15:31 +0100 <monochrom> No, Coyoneda is an existential type.
2023-11-05 23:16:09 +0100 <EvanR> \x -> CY snd (7, x) :: Num a1 => (a2, a3) -> Coyoneda ((,) a1) a3
2023-11-05 23:16:20 +0100 <EvanR> worked for me without enabling any extensions yay
2023-11-05 23:16:44 +0100 <EvanR> er... well it typed but not to what I thought it would
2023-11-05 23:18:47 +0100 <EvanR> yeah i see
2023-11-05 23:20:50 +0100 <monochrom> My example would be: Coyoneda (length :: String -> Int) ["hello", "hi"] :: Coyoneda [] Int. I am hiding the String type and a list of String values. You can see my example is a long way to say [5,2].
2023-11-05 23:21:01 +0100Inst(~Inst@120.244.192.250)
2023-11-05 23:21:47 +0100 <EvanR> basically it is delaying the inevitable, the only thing you do is apply them
2023-11-05 23:21:50 +0100 <EvanR> or this
2023-11-05 23:21:52 +0100 <EvanR> hoistCoyoneda :: (forall a. f a -> g a) -> Coyoneda f b -> Coyoneda g b
2023-11-05 23:22:20 +0100 <monochrom> If you pattern match my value against Coyoneda fst snd, you won't be told that I have String inside, but you can fmap fst snd to recover [5,2].
2023-11-05 23:22:58 +0100 <monochrom> I forgot the use cases, but yes the use cases benefit greatly from the delay.
2023-11-05 23:23:07 +0100 <dolio> The coyoneda lemma says that for functors `f`, `CY id fx` for `fx :: f x` is 'essentially' the only value.
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2023-11-05 23:30:07 +0100 <EvanR> the same thing is happening in data Data f g a = forall b c . Day (f b) (g c) (b -> c -> a), some f b and some g c paired with a function returning a, waiting for you to apply it to them
2023-11-05 23:32:14 +0100 <EvanR> (using Applicative)
2023-11-05 23:32:38 +0100 <EvanR> (and only then, if f = g)
2023-11-05 23:33:12 +0100 <EvanR> that should have said data Day f g a
2023-11-05 23:33:56 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2023-11-05 23:34:53 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39)
2023-11-05 23:34:56 +0100 <ncf> coends are your cofriends
2023-11-05 23:35:32 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39) (Client Quit)
2023-11-05 23:36:00 +0100 <dolio> In general you can use Coyoneda on an `f` that isn't a functor. Then it makes it into one.
2023-11-05 23:36:15 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39)
2023-11-05 23:36:30 +0100zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.98)
2023-11-05 23:39:00 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39) (Client Quit)
2023-11-05 23:39:48 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39)
2023-11-05 23:40:36 +0100 <EvanR> in a trivial way?
2023-11-05 23:40:48 +0100 <EvanR> there's some fine print about that
2023-11-05 23:41:22 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39) (Client Quit)
2023-11-05 23:42:09 +0100bramhaag7(~bramhaag@198.8.58.39)
2023-11-05 23:45:15 +0100 <ncf> in a free way
2023-11-05 23:45:31 +0100 <ncf> you could say it's the "free functor" free functor if you wanted everyone to hate you
2023-11-05 23:45:48 +0100 <Rembane> The hateful functor?
2023-11-05 23:46:15 +0100 <EvanR> if f is not a functor, it seems you can never do anything but continue to append post processing functions to the inner map
2023-11-05 23:46:16 +0100 <ncf> (in the sense that it's left adjoint to the forgetful functor from a category of functors to the discrete category of object mappings)
2023-11-05 23:49:00 +0100 <EvanR> you can put any f x into Coyoneda, but once you ship that it's not coming back out again if f is not a functor
2023-11-05 23:49:46 +0100 <EvanR> it's not like a nightclub
2023-11-05 23:50:21 +0100Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-11-05 23:51:08 +0100 <ncf> wait that forgetful functor doesn't make sense, what am i trying to say
2023-11-05 23:51:15 +0100Square(~Square@user/square)
2023-11-05 23:52:04 +0100 <jackdk> EvanR: have you seen https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/posts/2017-08-23-extensible-effects-and-transformers.html ?
2023-11-05 23:52:15 +0100 <ncf> oh yeah it's not discrete. the category of object mappings and unnatural transformations
2023-11-05 23:53:19 +0100 <EvanR> no but it looks interesting
2023-11-05 23:53:45 +0100 <monochrom> Yikes unnatural transformations. Is that belated Halloween? Is that like how Palpatine lives again? >:)
2023-11-05 23:54:08 +0100 <ncf> they're like natural transformations except not natural
2023-11-05 23:57:21 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-11-05 23:57:30 +0100 <EvanR> side tangent >Obviously, interacting with ListenBrainz requires some sort of IO so whatever API I will be offering has to live within some sort of monad
2023-11-05 23:57:40 +0100 <EvanR> citation needed xD
2023-11-05 23:57:42 +0100Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com)
2023-11-05 23:58:13 +0100 <EvanR> on the monad required par
2023-11-05 23:58:48 +0100 <jackdk> How do you propose to do anything useful with the result if it doesn't?