2023/08/26

2023-08-26 00:00:27 +0200glguy(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Quit: Quit)
2023-08-26 00:00:29 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-26 00:01:11 +0200glguy(g@libera/staff/glguy)
2023-08-26 00:01:47 +0200lena64t(~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 00:05:28 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 00:05:30 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-08-26 00:05:30 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy)
2023-08-26 00:05:40 +0200titiband1t(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
2023-08-26 00:05:55 +0200titiband1t(~titibandi@user/titibandit) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 00:06:32 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-08-26 00:06:37 +0200forell(~forell@user/forell) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 00:08:12 +0200lena64t(~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck)
2023-08-26 00:09:21 +0200forell(~forell@user/forell)
2023-08-26 00:11:38 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 00:13:21 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 00:16:35 +0200fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a)
2023-08-26 00:18:12 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2023-08-26 00:18:24 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Ping timeout: 606 seconds)
2023-08-26 00:18:28 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy)
2023-08-26 00:24:54 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.57.233.135) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 00:25:01 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.47.231.153)
2023-08-26 00:25:01 +0200fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 00:26:28 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.128.149.137)
2023-08-26 00:30:42 +0200[_][itchyjunk]
2023-08-26 00:37:34 +0200shapr(~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:ffa9:4f64:3f6e:7248)
2023-08-26 00:39:58 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-26 00:40:29 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 00:51:04 +0200jabuxas(~jabuxas@user/jabuxas) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-08-26 00:59:31 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f9674bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-08-26 01:00:15 +0200sidy(~sidy@user/sidy) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 01:10:19 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-26 01:11:16 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-08-26 01:13:41 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-08-26 01:19:34 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
2023-08-26 01:19:43 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 01:20:05 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 01:20:42 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 01:21:02 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 01:23:32 +0200dsrt^(~cd@c-66-56-7-24.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 01:31:14 +0200lambdabot(~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200lambdabot(~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu)
2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200lambdabot(~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200lambdabot(~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot)
2023-08-26 01:42:06 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-08-26 01:44:40 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 01:44:40 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::5235)
2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151)
2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 01:47:40 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2023-08-26 01:50:53 +0200td_(~td@i5387090E.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 01:51:07 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:00:04 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.47.231.153) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200cods(~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@cli-188-239-201-89.bbn.slav.dn.ua) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200son0p(~ff@152.203.98.110) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200stefan-_(~cri@42dots.de) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200texasmynsted(~username@99.96.221.112) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200mud(~mud@user/kadoban) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@143.244.47.89) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200ph88(~ph88@91.64.60.212) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.150.48) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200micro(~micro@user/micro) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200mrmr1(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200bah(~bah@l1.tel) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200piele(~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200shailangsa(~shailangs@host86-186-196-224.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200_xor(~xor@ip-50-5-233-250.dynamic.fuse.net) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase) (*.net *.split)
2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200micro(~micro@user/micro)
2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200cods(~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net)
2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200piele(~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net)
2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym)
2023-08-26 02:00:24 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.128.149.137)
2023-08-26 02:00:27 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
2023-08-26 02:00:27 +0200ph88(~ph88@ip5b403cd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2023-08-26 02:00:28 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.47.231.153)
2023-08-26 02:00:32 +0200pavonia(~user@95.91.246.224)
2023-08-26 02:00:43 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@static-68-235-44-81.cust.tzulo.com)
2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de)
2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200pavonia(~user@95.91.246.224) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-08-26 02:00:59 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase)
2023-08-26 02:01:27 +0200texasmynsted(~username@99.96.221.112)
2023-08-26 02:01:36 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2023-08-26 02:02:52 +0200td_(~td@i5387092C.versanet.de)
2023-08-26 02:03:12 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@143.244.47.89)
2023-08-26 02:04:26 +0200powderhorn(~powderhor@207-153-12-54.static.fttp.usinternet.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-08-26 02:05:11 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-26 02:05:12 +0200bah(~bah@l1.tel)
2023-08-26 02:05:24 +0200int-e(~noone@int-e.eu) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 02:06:37 +0200int-e(~noone@int-e.eu)
2023-08-26 02:09:21 +0200TonyStone(~TonyStone@74.76.57.186) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 02:11:11 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:13:00 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:22:29 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 02:23:01 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-08-26 02:37:39 +0200mima(~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-126.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:41:11 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 02:43:03 +0200shailangsa(~shailangs@host86-186-196-224.range86-186.btcentralplus.com)
2023-08-26 02:54:19 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah)
2023-08-26 03:08:24 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 03:11:40 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:11:41 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 03:13:51 +0200albet70(~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 03:15:56 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::5235) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:20:27 +0200albet70(~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
2023-08-26 03:23:22 +0200td_(~td@i5387092C.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:24:15 +0200nate2(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2023-08-26 03:25:36 +0200TheCoffeMaker_(~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219) (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish)
2023-08-26 03:25:41 +0200td_(~td@83.135.9.34)
2023-08-26 03:25:54 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2023-08-26 03:26:11 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 03:26:53 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 03:28:44 +0200nate2(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:31:13 +0200cyphase(~cyphase@user/cyphase)
2023-08-26 03:38:20 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-12.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 03:41:24 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@static-68-235-44-81.cust.tzulo.com) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4)
2023-08-26 03:50:38 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell)
2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151)
2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 03:53:52 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:54:08 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 03:58:32 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-179-96.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-08-26 03:58:38 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@203.96.203.44)
2023-08-26 04:00:19 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 04:00:50 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2023-08-26 04:00:51 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 04:07:29 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4)
2023-08-26 04:07:47 +0200falafel(~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:09:06 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-137-138.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:11:43 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell)
2023-08-26 04:15:21 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:17:45 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 04:18:42 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-26 04:23:07 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:24:40 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:25:55 +0200danza__(~francesco@151.43.225.202)
2023-08-26 04:26:00 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.47.231.153) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 04:29:12 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.150.48) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:29:13 +0200Katarushisu1(~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:29:53 +0200Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.150.48) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:30:00 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:32:32 +0200Katarushisu1(~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
2023-08-26 04:35:00 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.150.48)
2023-08-26 04:35:27 +0200Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.150.48)
2023-08-26 04:42:26 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2023-08-26 04:45:31 +0200extor(~extor@ns3018124.ip-149-202-82.eu) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 04:52:33 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:54:10 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-08-26 04:54:24 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.37.181)
2023-08-26 04:54:36 +0200td_(~td@83.135.9.34) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200lena64t(~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 04:54:59 +0200lena64t(~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck)
2023-08-26 04:55:07 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-08-26 04:55:12 +0200chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
2023-08-26 04:56:18 +0200td_(~td@i5387093E.versanet.de)
2023-08-26 04:59:27 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-26 05:00:30 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 05:01:20 +0200nyc(~nyc@2603-7000-a106-2fb5-0000-0000-0000-1f21.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:19:17 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:32:12 +0200aforemny(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cef:2100:bda0:603:2023:867f)
2023-08-26 05:32:31 +0200aforemny_(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc5:4600:f76a:14d4:532c:f16e) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 05:41:52 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:41:54 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 05:45:00 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.37.181) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2023-08-26 05:47:35 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 05:49:57 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@143.244.47.89) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:52:07 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4)
2023-08-26 05:52:33 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@146.70.168.180)
2023-08-26 05:53:45 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-26 05:57:20 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 05:59:08 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 06:03:55 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 06:04:34 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 06:29:10 +0200johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2023-08-26 06:34:30 +0200idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
2023-08-26 06:34:34 +0200extor(~extor@ns3018124.ip-149-202-82.eu)
2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-08-26 06:37:08 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82)
2023-08-26 06:37:46 +0200 <Inst> been thinking about this
2023-08-26 06:37:47 +0200 <Inst> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/leaving_haskell_behind_infinite_negative_utility/
2023-08-26 06:38:09 +0200 <Inst> I don't really have the position to propose or advocate for this, but how would Haskellers feel about declaring 2024 or 2025 to be the Year of the Haskell Ecosystem?
2023-08-26 06:40:05 +0200k3ut0i(~keutoi@223.230.26.106) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 06:42:10 +0200 <EvanR> is that like National Haskell Day but just 365 of it
2023-08-26 06:45:09 +0200 <EvanR> the blogger basically switched to rust
2023-08-26 06:45:23 +0200 <institor> > linking "posts" and "ideas" from reddit
2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 <institor> ishygddt
2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope:
2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 <lambdabot> linking
2023-08-26 06:45:55 +0200 <Inst> i mean ecosystem could use love
2023-08-26 06:46:00 +0200 <institor> ah, i guess it's just one level of indirection from the actual "leaving haskell behind" blog post
2023-08-26 06:46:03 +0200 <institor> which was indeed well written
2023-08-26 06:46:04 +0200 <Inst> that was posted onto HackerNews
2023-08-26 06:46:43 +0200 <Inst> everything in Haskell has improved dramatically over the past 5 years; the easiest retort to that poster is "you last used Haskell professionally in 2018 / 2019, tooling has advanced tremendously"
2023-08-26 06:46:45 +0200 <institor> yes i have some 10+ yr old projects that are difficult to keep limping along thanks to the constant breakage
2023-08-26 06:46:56 +0200 <institor> i ran into an issue with an older version of GHC on a pretty old stack LTS resolver
2023-08-26 06:47:05 +0200 <institor> that simply wasn't going to be fixed because that version of GHC is two major versions behind
2023-08-26 06:47:06 +0200 <EvanR> I learned to habitually click through the reddit links to the actual thing begin linked
2023-08-26 06:47:19 +0200 <institor> the tooling prior to the emergence of stack
2023-08-26 06:47:21 +0200 <institor> was disastrous
2023-08-26 06:47:22 +0200 <EvanR> which was not obvious for a long time to me because it's not prominent
2023-08-26 06:47:28 +0200 <institor> as for the academic obscurantism, i can't say
2023-08-26 06:47:43 +0200 <institor> EvanR: reddit is the bottom of the barrel of the infosphere
2023-08-26 06:47:50 +0200 <institor> i would simply refrain from using it entirely.
2023-08-26 06:47:57 +0200 <EvanR> the reddit link was posted to hacker news?
2023-08-26 06:48:05 +0200 <institor> the blog post that reddit linked to was
2023-08-26 06:48:12 +0200 <institor> it was front page for a day or so
2023-08-26 06:48:12 +0200 <EvanR> oh
2023-08-26 06:48:34 +0200 <Inst> the only thing that hasn't really improved that much is the ecosystem
2023-08-26 06:48:46 +0200 <Inst> tooling, learning materials have improved a lot
2023-08-26 06:48:50 +0200dtman34(~dtman34@2601:447:d000:93c9:57a0:c461:5e89:7cbf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-26 06:48:55 +0200 <Inst> I suppose hype, enthusiasm has died down a bit
2023-08-26 06:49:04 +0200 <Inst> but ecosystem is where there's still room for improvement, no?
2023-08-26 06:49:12 +0200 <institor> Inst: it would need serious industry investment to get onto the same level as other "mainstream" languages
2023-08-26 06:49:26 +0200 <Inst> or you could be a Maoist
2023-08-26 06:49:27 +0200 <institor> language ecosystems need real skin in the game to develop "enterpise-grade" tooling
2023-08-26 06:49:35 +0200 <Inst> you mean the tooling stuff?
2023-08-26 06:49:38 +0200 <institor> and cause a famine killing tens of millions? no thanks
2023-08-26 06:49:48 +0200 <shapr> I think we write a shell script that wraps cabal and release it as the final release of stack
2023-08-26 06:49:48 +0200 <institor> Inst: yes
2023-08-26 06:49:52 +0200 <Inst> yeah, tbh, thanks for letting me think of how a year of Haskell ecosystem can go wrong
2023-08-26 06:49:56 +0200 <Inst> i'm working on GUI cabal again
2023-08-26 06:50:01 +0200 <institor> > GUI
2023-08-26 06:50:03 +0200 <institor> > cabal
2023-08-26 06:50:04 +0200 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: GUI
2023-08-26 06:50:05 +0200 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: cabal
2023-08-26 06:50:08 +0200 <institor> ishygddt
2023-08-26 06:50:18 +0200 <shapr> what does ishygddt mean?
2023-08-26 06:50:23 +0200 <Inst> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144686948091437106/image.png
2023-08-26 06:50:23 +0200 <shapr> Is that Yiddish?
2023-08-26 06:50:25 +0200 <institor> "i seriously hope you guys don't do this"
2023-08-26 06:50:33 +0200 <shapr> ah
2023-08-26 06:50:34 +0200 <Inst> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144707118579064912/image.png?width=22…
2023-08-26 06:50:36 +0200 <shapr> so it is Yiddish, ok
2023-08-26 06:50:40 +0200 <institor> haha
2023-08-26 06:50:45 +0200 <EvanR> really, the idea that every language should make "be the next php, ruby on rails, server-side javascript, elixir, whatever" an objective seems questionable
2023-08-26 06:50:56 +0200 <EvanR> when people say that about idris it's ridiculous
2023-08-26 06:51:09 +0200 <institor> haskell and idris originated as research languages
2023-08-26 06:51:18 +0200 <institor> not tools for private industry to "ship it"
2023-08-26 06:51:20 +0200 <shapr> yup
2023-08-26 06:51:29 +0200 <c_wraith> that's not strictly true of Haskell
2023-08-26 06:51:32 +0200 <Inst> by Maoist, I just mean, declaring 2024-2025 the year of Haskell Ecosystem, asking people to contribute and try to make new libraries / help maintain and upgrade older libraries
2023-08-26 06:51:38 +0200 <shapr> c_wraith: oh, how so?
2023-08-26 06:51:45 +0200 <shapr> I thought Haskell was an open source version of Miranda
2023-08-26 06:51:59 +0200 <Inst> like, you can't really direct the entire Haskell community toward making Cabal better / Stack / GHCup better
2023-08-26 06:52:05 +0200 <shapr> why not?
2023-08-26 06:52:15 +0200 <shapr> We could declare ourselves the entire community and then go fix things?
2023-08-26 06:52:15 +0200 <institor> Inst: you need to pay a sizeable cohort of skilled practitioners to do that
2023-08-26 06:52:17 +0200 <Inst> I think those projects are already relatively well-staffed, and can't really grow without creating coordination difficulties
2023-08-26 06:52:21 +0200 <institor> which is what all the other major language ecosystems do
2023-08-26 06:52:23 +0200 <shapr> mmm, no
2023-08-26 06:52:29 +0200 <institor> and they need to dogfood whatever it is they build
2023-08-26 06:52:29 +0200 <shapr> I mean, those projects are not well staffed
2023-08-26 06:52:33 +0200 <c_wraith> the goals of the original Haskell committee were to make a language that could be used for language research and writing production software. Like, it was explicitly a goal.
2023-08-26 06:52:36 +0200 <institor> on real projects in production
2023-08-26 06:52:36 +0200 <sclv> cabal stack and ghcup all need more contributors
2023-08-26 06:52:39 +0200 <shapr> yup
2023-08-26 06:52:55 +0200 <sclv> i say this as someone who is a contributor to cabal, and who has worked on helping ghcup in the past
2023-08-26 06:53:00 +0200shaprhugs sclv
2023-08-26 06:53:05 +0200 <Inst> well, what are the other options @institor?
2023-08-26 06:53:06 +0200 <shapr> sclv: oh hey, will you be at ICFP?
2023-08-26 06:53:11 +0200 <institor> Inst: i just presented one
2023-08-26 06:53:18 +0200 <Inst> where's the money?
2023-08-26 06:53:20 +0200 <sclv> the latter especially put out a call for more help, because its maintainer is overworked and needs to step back from doing as much active development
2023-08-26 06:53:23 +0200 <institor> Inst: good question
2023-08-26 06:53:31 +0200 <sclv> shapr: yep, looking forward to it!
2023-08-26 06:53:37 +0200 <shapr> yay! I hope to see you there
2023-08-26 06:53:47 +0200 <Inst> option 1: magical money acquisition, option 2: keep things as is, keep the same level of ecosystem growth, option 3: declare jihad?
2023-08-26 06:53:48 +0200 <shapr> I send $20 a month to the haskell language server project
2023-08-26 06:54:04 +0200 <c_wraith> The very first design goal for the original Haskell committee: "It should be suitable for teaching, research, and applications, including building large systems."
2023-08-26 06:54:08 +0200 <Inst> iirc ben gamari has maintainer status on ghcup, no?
2023-08-26 06:54:10 +0200 <institor> Inst: spoken like a redditor
2023-08-26 06:54:15 +0200 <shapr> ben gamari has far too many things to do
2023-08-26 06:54:23 +0200 <EvanR> Inst, option zero focus on a more appropriate language for the actual business objectives
2023-08-26 06:54:32 +0200 <shapr> Last I checked, bgamari is also the GHC release manager and a few other things
2023-08-26 06:54:42 +0200 <Inst> EvanR: option 4: give up, let Haskell slowly decay and accept senescence
2023-08-26 06:54:46 +0200 <Inst> declare victory and use Rust instead
2023-08-26 06:54:46 +0200 <sclv> we have more money behind haskell than ever before, and structure too, thanks to the haskell foundation
2023-08-26 06:54:56 +0200 <shapr> sclv: oh that's great! I didn't know that!
2023-08-26 06:55:19 +0200 <Inst> is just use Rust going to be a new Haskeller thing to say?
2023-08-26 06:55:21 +0200 <sclv> i mean arguably the in-kind we've gotten from msr and galois etc in the past has been semi-comparable, but its much better structured and more sustainable now
2023-08-26 06:55:35 +0200 <EvanR> yes use Rust for the enterprise server level stuff you're hinting at
2023-08-26 06:55:38 +0200 <shapr> inst: want to attend one of the Haskell Foundation calls and see what things we could work on?
2023-08-26 06:55:43 +0200 <EvanR> much better hype department
2023-08-26 06:55:47 +0200 <shapr> institor: yeah?
2023-08-26 06:55:51 +0200 <Inst> i'm really just a codemonkey, a redditor, and an idiot
2023-08-26 06:56:02 +0200 <shapr> I saw you say code, so that's a yes?
2023-08-26 06:56:09 +0200 <Inst> not really contributing, i guess the file asset manager lib i'm working on and the cabal GUI lib i'm working on
2023-08-26 06:56:09 +0200shaprgrins
2023-08-26 06:56:16 +0200 <institor> do you have an issue tracker
2023-08-26 06:56:27 +0200 <Inst> is my hail mary on being relevant and useful
2023-08-26 06:56:56 +0200 <institor> i am loathe to get on voice calls these days
2023-08-26 06:57:07 +0200 <institor> it reminds me of living the corpo lifestyle
2023-08-26 06:57:13 +0200 <shapr> institor: for cabal? https://github.com/haskell/cabal
2023-08-26 06:57:17 +0200 <institor> for stack
2023-08-26 06:57:25 +0200 <shapr> Oh, I dunno
2023-08-26 06:57:26 +0200 <institor> i like to pretend cabal does not exist
2023-08-26 06:57:32 +0200 <shapr> I like to pretend stack does not exist
2023-08-26 06:57:36 +0200 <sclv> https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack
2023-08-26 06:57:36 +0200 <institor> hmmmm
2023-08-26 06:57:38 +0200nyc(~nyc@2603-7000-a106-2fb5-0000-0000-0000-1f21.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 06:57:39 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 06:57:47 +0200 <Inst> i like to pretend neither cabal nor stack exist ;)
2023-08-26 06:57:55 +0200 <EvanR> just makefiles?
2023-08-26 06:57:57 +0200 <shapr> I haven't written much Haskell the past few weeks, sadly.
2023-08-26 06:58:00 +0200 <institor> ah yes we'll just rewrite everything
2023-08-26 06:58:08 +0200 <Inst> i'm joking, just taking the third option on cabal vs stack war
2023-08-26 06:58:08 +0200 <institor> i propose starting with the microarchitecture
2023-08-26 06:58:18 +0200 <Inst> also implicitly, yes, makefiles & nix
2023-08-26 06:58:28 +0200 <shapr> I do love nix
2023-08-26 06:58:35 +0200shaprlooks for an easy issue
2023-08-26 06:58:51 +0200 <Inst> how big is the Haskell production community, anyways?
2023-08-26 06:58:57 +0200 <shapr> institor: did you find a nice stack issue?
2023-08-26 06:58:57 +0200 <Inst> any estimates?
2023-08-26 06:59:07 +0200 <Inst> IHP apparently managed to get 250 people working on IHP projects
2023-08-26 06:59:17 +0200 <Inst> I'm derisive of IHP, but IHP exists, grows the community
2023-08-26 06:59:24 +0200 <institor> shapr: nope
2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 06:59:33 +0200 <institor> Inst: facebook ran haskell in production at some point
2023-08-26 06:59:39 +0200 <institor> i think part of their spam filtering engine
2023-08-26 06:59:42 +0200 <Inst> facebook should still be running Haskell in production
2023-08-26 06:59:47 +0200 <institor> why
2023-08-26 06:59:47 +0200 <shapr> facebook still does run haskell
2023-08-26 06:59:52 +0200 <Inst> it was rumored that they decommissioned one of their Haskell systems
2023-08-26 06:59:55 +0200 <shapr> they did
2023-08-26 07:00:02 +0200 <shapr> they decommissioned the spam filter
2023-08-26 07:00:04 +0200 <shapr> then they put it back
2023-08-26 07:00:08 +0200 <Inst> wait what?
2023-08-26 07:00:11 +0200 <shapr> yup
2023-08-26 07:00:18 +0200dtman34(~dtman34@c-76-156-89-180.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 07:00:20 +0200 <Inst> it'll also be funny if Hasura can't rewrite it in Rust
2023-08-26 07:00:23 +0200 <institor> https://engineering.fb.com/2015/06/26/security/fighting-spam-with-haskell/
2023-08-26 07:00:48 +0200 <shapr> inst: where's your file asset manager?
2023-08-26 07:00:52 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-08-26 07:00:53 +0200 <institor> look, part of the reason private industry doesn't run haskell
2023-08-26 07:00:56 +0200 <Inst> it's some basic prototype right now
2023-08-26 07:00:59 +0200 <institor> is that it's hard to hire people to write it
2023-08-26 07:01:05 +0200 <institor> and expensive to train them if they can't
2023-08-26 07:01:16 +0200 <institor> and expensive to maintain those systems for reasons outlined in that infinitenegativeutility post
2023-08-26 07:01:19 +0200 <Inst> the idea is that it just packages stuff via file-embed (I'm thinking about rewriting it), generate assets
2023-08-26 07:01:24 +0200 <shapr> institor: no?
2023-08-26 07:01:29 +0200 <institor> no??
2023-08-26 07:01:34 +0200 <shapr> agreed
2023-08-26 07:01:43 +0200 <shapr> It's pretty easy to hire Haskell devs
2023-08-26 07:01:46 +0200 <institor> i suppose if we could train people to write c++
2023-08-26 07:01:48 +0200 <shapr> and private industry does use Haskell
2023-08-26 07:01:50 +0200 <Inst> create sha256 hash, verify vs sha256 hash, download files from internet, etc
2023-08-26 07:01:52 +0200 <institor> we can train them to run anything
2023-08-26 07:02:17 +0200 <shapr> institor: Have you had a Haskell job?
2023-08-26 07:02:22 +0200 <institor> shapr: hah! i wish
2023-08-26 07:02:24 +0200 <shapr> or worked at a company that used Haskell professionally?
2023-08-26 07:02:28 +0200 <shapr> I've had two
2023-08-26 07:02:36 +0200 <institor> maybe it's time to dust off the resume
2023-08-26 07:02:39 +0200 <shapr> yeah, do it!
2023-08-26 07:02:53 +0200 <Inst> it's not really a useful lib, just some convenience for people who can't be arsed to get data-files working or use a packager
2023-08-26 07:03:17 +0200 <shapr> This job we made an Android app with Haskell
2023-08-26 07:03:24 +0200 <institor> so bold
2023-08-26 07:03:33 +0200 <shapr> yeah, it's in the play store if you want to try it
2023-08-26 07:03:37 +0200 <Inst> oh wait, you were the guys who paid Obsidian money for 1 hour per week support?
2023-08-26 07:03:38 +0200 <institor> i didn't even know you could target dalvik
2023-08-26 07:03:40 +0200 <shapr> yup
2023-08-26 07:04:00 +0200 <institor> wouldn't all the FFI be a pain
2023-08-26 07:04:07 +0200 <shapr> https://shapr.github.io/posts/2023-07-25-android-app-in-haskell.html
2023-08-26 07:04:10 +0200 <Inst> iirc you're still locked to 8.8, right?
2023-08-26 07:04:12 +0200 <shapr> see look! shapr !
2023-08-26 07:04:16 +0200 <shapr> nah, 8.10.7
2023-08-26 07:05:16 +0200 <shapr> institor: so, having worked with about seventy professional Haskellers at different times, I think you can hire Haskell devs
2023-08-26 07:05:33 +0200 <shapr> Having done some training at this job, I think you can train people even if they have zero prior experience
2023-08-26 07:05:33 +0200 <institor> sure
2023-08-26 07:05:42 +0200 <institor> but it's harder than working with masses of bootcamp devs
2023-08-26 07:05:49 +0200 <institor> and you draw from a smaller talent pool
2023-08-26 07:05:50 +0200 <shapr> mmmm, I'm not sure I agree
2023-08-26 07:05:53 +0200 <institor> heheh
2023-08-26 07:05:57 +0200 <institor> have you worked with bootcamp devs?
2023-08-26 07:06:00 +0200 <shapr> oh yes, many times
2023-08-26 07:06:29 +0200 <shapr> Some of them are extremely motivated and are quickly building understanding
2023-08-26 07:06:33 +0200 <shapr> Some of them aren't
2023-08-26 07:06:40 +0200 <institor> i am still scarred by my brief stint in web dev with the latter cohort
2023-08-26 07:06:40 +0200 <shapr> It depends on the bootcamp
2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host)
2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 07:06:50 +0200 <institor> i tried explaining what "XOR" is
2023-08-26 07:06:52 +0200 <institor> they just didn't get it
2023-08-26 07:06:55 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 07:06:57 +0200 <institor> and had no inclination to understand
2023-08-26 07:07:04 +0200 <shapr> I enjoy training and teaching, so I'm happy to work with anyone who wants to learn
2023-08-26 07:07:09 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by liamzy_!~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a)))
2023-08-26 07:07:10 +0200 <shapr> I learn just as much from motivated people
2023-08-26 07:07:15 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a)
2023-08-26 07:07:22 +0200 <institor> yes, teaching others is a great way to solidify your own understanding
2023-08-26 07:07:34 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 07:08:27 +0200 <Inst> institor: you want me to drag out the HackerNews comment wherein someone claims they can train a newbie Haskeller to production level in 2-3 weeks on average
2023-08-26 07:08:34 +0200 <Inst> and get them comfortable with the entire ecosystem within 6 months?
2023-08-26 07:08:41 +0200 <shapr> Heh, I do know several people who can do that
2023-08-26 07:08:45 +0200 <institor> look hackernews is a bubble of people who are halfway competent
2023-08-26 07:08:49 +0200 <shapr> gabriella, for example
2023-08-26 07:08:51 +0200 <shapr> I can't do that
2023-08-26 07:08:56 +0200 <institor> maybe becoming less than halfway competent in recent years
2023-08-26 07:09:06 +0200 <Inst> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23621930
2023-08-26 07:09:09 +0200 <institor> there are industry folk who don't even read hacker news at all
2023-08-26 07:09:13 +0200 <institor> and couldn't care less
2023-08-26 07:09:22 +0200 <institor> > Google
2023-08-26 07:09:24 +0200 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: Google
2023-08-26 07:09:29 +0200 <institor> even in 2020 that was still cream of the crop
2023-08-26 07:09:34 +0200 <Inst> https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview
2023-08-26 07:09:42 +0200 <shapr> frustrating thing is that Hacker News is the intellectial center for people who didn't read the article but will tell you why they're right anyway.
2023-08-26 07:09:47 +0200 <institor> haha
2023-08-26 07:09:57 +0200 <institor> shapr: that is an ancient and venerable tradition dating back to /.
2023-08-26 07:09:57 +0200 <shapr> Like, that whole chunk of people who have never tried Haskell, but have very strong opinions on it
2023-08-26 07:10:01 +0200 <institor> RTFA, you insensitive clod!
2023-08-26 07:10:42 +0200 <shapr> I gave a talk today on a related subject
2023-08-26 07:11:12 +0200 <shapr> institor: have you tried to teach Haskell to anyone?
2023-08-26 07:11:37 +0200 <institor> not over any prolonged span of time no
2023-08-26 07:11:47 +0200 <shapr> You should, it's really fun
2023-08-26 07:11:52 +0200 <shapr> I mean, you might enjoy it.
2023-08-26 07:11:59 +0200 <institor> maybe once i recover from burnout
2023-08-26 07:12:14 +0200 <institor> those fucking on call shifts man
2023-08-26 07:12:16 +0200 <shapr> I like the sudden burst of rainbows I see in someone's eyes when they finally get the idea of equational reasoning
2023-08-26 07:12:32 +0200 <institor> i was disheartened to ctrl-f "referential transparency" in that infinitenegativeutility article
2023-08-26 07:12:33 +0200 <institor> and find no results
2023-08-26 07:12:45 +0200 <institor> but maybe that kind of academic jargon scares people away
2023-08-26 07:13:17 +0200 <shapr> I'm giving a five minute talk on hole driven development next week
2023-08-26 07:13:33 +0200 <sclv> its a fine article imho, by someone i recognize as a longtime productive haskeller. the things getty highlights as good i agree with. the things highlighted as painpoints i also agree could be better but also... i just don't mind.
2023-08-26 07:13:42 +0200 <institor> the typechecker can serve the same purpose as a test suite in strongly statically typed languages
2023-08-26 07:13:51 +0200 <shapr> I disagree
2023-08-26 07:13:58 +0200 <institor> sure, it's actually even stronger
2023-08-26 07:14:00 +0200 <Inst> and tbh, i'd be dishonest if i didn't admit HLS crashes on me at least twice an hour on a trivial project
2023-08-26 07:14:01 +0200 <Inst> :(
2023-08-26 07:14:01 +0200 <institor> types prove the absence of bugs
2023-08-26 07:14:04 +0200 <institor> tests prove their existence
2023-08-26 07:14:10 +0200 <shapr> Inst: which version are you using?
2023-08-26 07:14:16 +0200 <Inst> latest, but i'm on arch
2023-08-26 07:14:20 +0200 <shapr> is HLS being oom killed?
2023-08-26 07:14:21 +0200 <Inst> and using something from AUR
2023-08-26 07:14:30 +0200 <sclv> i learned to program with an emacs window and a console, and that's still how i do it. i used ides a bit in javaland and c# land and they were necessary, but in the end i'm happier when i don't need them, and with haskell i don't
2023-08-26 07:14:33 +0200 <institor> the haskell package subtree in arch is hell
2023-08-26 07:14:40 +0200 <Inst> i'd rather struggle through ctrl shift p
2023-08-26 07:14:43 +0200 <institor> something always fucking breaks after a system update
2023-08-26 07:14:49 +0200 <institor> i just gave up and do everything through stack
2023-08-26 07:14:52 +0200 <shapr> institor: I don't agree. The type system can eliminate some flavors of errors, but you still need tests.
2023-08-26 07:14:58 +0200 <institor> shapr: i use both
2023-08-26 07:15:12 +0200 <institor> what i mean by that is you are constantly interrogating the system with both approaches
2023-08-26 07:15:16 +0200 <sclv> right. you have to use a separate toolchain on arch -- stack, or ghcup+cabal both work. but avoid the system packages
2023-08-26 07:15:20 +0200 <institor> to get feedback on how it's actually operating
2023-08-26 07:15:29 +0200 <institor> and updating your mental model as you converse with the typechecker and/or test suite
2023-08-26 07:15:33 +0200 <Inst> and restarting VSC
2023-08-26 07:15:35 +0200 <shapr> I do like that approaoch
2023-08-26 07:15:44 +0200 <shapr> I've called that "conversations with correctness"
2023-08-26 07:15:54 +0200 <institor> that's an interesting turn of phrase
2023-08-26 07:16:10 +0200 <sclv> the other point in getty's article is the breaking change stuff, and uh... i've never found it that bad. certainly not lately. we have a lot of people running around and fixing stuff up. and when we don't, its never more than half a day or so of effort to do it myself.
2023-08-26 07:16:18 +0200 <Inst> sclv: Haskell IDE is really powerful for a beginner, though
2023-08-26 07:16:30 +0200 <sclv> sure, it could be. i just.. wouldn't know
2023-08-26 07:16:55 +0200 <sclv> i know when i left ides behind when i picked up haskell after a stint in javaland, at first it was really disconcerting, and then it was a relief
2023-08-26 07:17:12 +0200 <institor> i still use vim for fuck's sake
2023-08-26 07:17:22 +0200 <Inst> i wrote Haskell in wordpad for a bit, it was ironically more convenient because VSC was a resource hog, and so far, Helix / Vim are enigmas
2023-08-26 07:17:26 +0200 <institor> vscoders and intellij users don't even know what that is anymore
2023-08-26 07:17:50 +0200 <Inst> iirc, there's HLS support for Vim / NeoVim, and presumably Helix
2023-08-26 07:17:53 +0200 <sclv> a difference between now and the Bad Old Days is i also use github codesearch a ton in browsing code, which you didn't have back then
2023-08-26 07:18:07 +0200 <institor> yes i've run intero with neovim in the past
2023-08-26 07:18:08 +0200 <sclv> but between that and haddocks and an adequate use of grep, i don't even bother with tags files
2023-08-26 07:18:09 +0200 <institor> it's great
2023-08-26 07:18:40 +0200 <institor> forget it, i just grep my way through everything
2023-08-26 07:18:41 +0200 <danza__> tag files are robust, easy and handy
2023-08-26 07:18:42 +0200 <institor> linux is the IDE
2023-08-26 07:18:48 +0200 <institor> type faster
2023-08-26 07:18:51 +0200 <danza__> with emacs, at least
2023-08-26 07:19:12 +0200 <sclv> and when there's a missing library, i take it as an opportunity to try to write one, which is a good challenge. helps that i've had jobs that have afforded me that, i grant.
2023-08-26 07:19:30 +0200 <institor> and then you get to quarterly review...
2023-08-26 07:19:40 +0200 <institor> "what IMPACT have you had over the past four months??"
2023-08-26 07:19:48 +0200 <institor> lmfao
2023-08-26 07:20:01 +0200 <institor> it's all about the money dawg
2023-08-26 07:20:13 +0200 <danza__> interesting that you thought it was difficult to hire haskellers, but never had an haskell job institor
2023-08-26 07:20:16 +0200 <sclv> i get paid the same regardless
2023-08-26 07:20:49 +0200 <institor> well maybe i will look for one
2023-08-26 07:21:02 +0200 <institor> and not hate my life slinging "mainstream" languages
2023-08-26 07:21:08 +0200 <sclv> my job is to write good software. the business side and managers can worry about money and impact -- the best way they get something that can actually be sold and maintained is to let us engineers cook
2023-08-26 07:21:16 +0200 <danza__> oh, i see, you did not look for one yet
2023-08-26 07:21:17 +0200 <institor> sclv: well spoken
2023-08-26 07:21:30 +0200 <Inst> rtbh there are people who have the opposite impression, i.e, Haskellers are underemployed and are a good deal for the talent you get for the money
2023-08-26 07:21:35 +0200 <institor> danza__: well i just fell into the grooves of the industry
2023-08-26 07:21:44 +0200 <institor> i mean i could have networked my way into a haskell position
2023-08-26 07:21:50 +0200 <Inst> Parsons tries to disabuse readers of that notion, though
2023-08-26 07:21:52 +0200 <institor> i had a colleague who ended up working for fintech or something slinging haskell
2023-08-26 07:21:59 +0200 <institor> though i find his peers somewhat intimidating
2023-08-26 07:22:03 +0200 <institor> they _really_ know what they're doing
2023-08-26 07:22:52 +0200 <institor> i'm not unhappy with my prior experience though
2023-08-26 07:23:40 +0200 <Inst> so, @sclv: should I make a thread on Discourse to ask what people think about trying to do a year of Haskell ecosystem?
2023-08-26 07:24:01 +0200 <danza__> do you really think that is how it works?
2023-08-26 07:24:14 +0200 <danza__> you think an ecosystem can change with a community call?
2023-08-26 07:24:18 +0200 <institor> haha
2023-08-26 07:24:20 +0200 <sclv> idk if we're well situated for that effort yet.
2023-08-26 07:24:24 +0200 <institor> as i said above you need real investment from people with skin in the game
2023-08-26 07:24:31 +0200 <institor> who dogfood whatever it is they build on real production systems
2023-08-26 07:24:32 +0200 <sclv> maybe next year -- there's a lot of work that's been coming down the pipes.
2023-08-26 07:24:53 +0200 <Inst> yeah okay, i should focus on my projects
2023-08-26 07:24:59 +0200 <sclv> i think it might be good to reach out to david and other hf people and see where you can best plug in, or how you could help coordinate something
2023-08-26 07:25:28 +0200 <Inst> it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal
2023-08-26 07:25:28 +0200 <sclv> maybe like help to synthesize a big picture list of the main issues people want tackled -- which i know the hf has already put some work into, but you could help bring to fruition as a "hitlist"
2023-08-26 07:25:35 +0200 <Inst> what I'm really trying to do is to trade a mentorship for labor deal
2023-08-26 07:25:37 +0200 <sclv> hecate is overworked already lmao
2023-08-26 07:25:52 +0200 <Inst> they're working on GHCup
2023-08-26 07:25:56 +0200 <Inst> with bradrn
2023-08-26 07:26:00 +0200 <Inst> on getting a GUI wrapper on that
2023-08-26 07:26:19 +0200 <sclv> if we had a hitlist and a set of people leading the way on various initiatives, then a coordinated call for volunteers makes sense
2023-08-26 07:26:24 +0200 <Inst> feels weird thta I'm moving faster because bradrn is working with gi-gtk or something like that, I'm working with monomer, and gi-gtk-declarative iirc is dead?
2023-08-26 07:26:39 +0200 <institor> i'm going to make a breakfast wrap now
2023-08-26 07:26:41 +0200 <institor> at 1am
2023-08-26 07:26:43 +0200 <sclv> my experience organizing volunteers is you get people excited but they can't self-start, certainly not as a cohesive group, without a lot of surrounding structure
2023-08-26 07:26:43 +0200 <institor> bbiab
2023-08-26 07:26:53 +0200 <Inst> interesting
2023-08-26 07:27:04 +0200 <sclv> picking maybe one infra tool and trying to give it more structure in development and help its onboarding could be a place to start
2023-08-26 07:27:07 +0200 <Inst> but tbh the point of the post was more to ask for perspectives and see if HF wanted to get in on this and coordinate
2023-08-26 07:27:24 +0200 <sclv> like maybe trying to do a series of intro-talks/hackathon events for hls, or a code formatter, or etc
2023-08-26 07:27:29 +0200 <Inst> but you agree that ecosystem could use some love, and a coordinated volunteer effort through the community might improve things?
2023-08-26 07:27:53 +0200 <sclv> sure, but also i think a lot of people agree and that's a big goal of HF already
2023-08-26 07:28:05 +0200 <sclv> i'm trying to spitball to some concrete ways to get that going
2023-08-26 07:28:26 +0200 <sclv> and i think maybe doing a rotating "onboarding/introduction" series to pieces of the ecosystem could be it
2023-08-26 07:29:14 +0200 <Inst> could you specify what that means?
2023-08-26 07:29:24 +0200 <danza__> i mean we are discussing GUIs and HLS, while fundamental tools like cabal are not in a great state
2023-08-26 07:29:32 +0200drewjose(~drewjose@223.178.84.241) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 07:29:43 +0200 <sclv> say one a month, with a few weekly blogposts 1) explaining the architecture of each 2) big outstanding future issues on the roadmap, and maybe 3) the state of the development process and then in the fourth week there's a remote hackathon where people can join and get assigned issues to start looking at and mentorship in working on them
2023-08-26 07:29:48 +0200 <Inst> oh
2023-08-26 07:30:16 +0200 <Inst> https://newaverageandpragmatic.blogspot.com/2023/08/haskell-kaiseki-cookbook.html
2023-08-26 07:30:40 +0200 <Inst> i think one disappointment with Gabriella Gonzalez's
2023-08-26 07:31:30 +0200 <Inst> oh wait, she DID do a tutorial
2023-08-26 07:31:31 +0200 <Inst> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3qjTVcU9cg
2023-08-26 07:32:42 +0200 <shapr> sclv: onboarding would be great
2023-08-26 07:33:45 +0200 <Inst> ah, i guess what we were thinking was different; i was thinking was more tutorial-oriented
2023-08-26 07:38:30 +0200 <Inst> sclv?
2023-08-26 07:39:47 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@203.96.203.44) (Quit: leaving)
2023-08-26 07:42:05 +0200 <danza__> some here wrote that "people that follow hypes" (my interpretation of the term they used) are moving to rust, and that would not be bad for the haskell community
2023-08-26 07:42:42 +0200 <danza__> *someone
2023-08-26 07:47:06 +0200 <Inst> was the line "hipsters decamped to rust"?
2023-08-26 07:48:44 +0200 <danza__> that was it
2023-08-26 07:49:29 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 07:49:32 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy)
2023-08-26 07:49:45 +0200 <danza__> admittedly my interpretation of "hipsters" was not accurate, but i wanted to link with the mention about hype occurring before in this conversation
2023-08-26 07:50:06 +0200 <Inst> mine
2023-08-26 07:51:38 +0200 <Axman6> i feel you've done a good job summing up my comments on lobste.rs
2023-08-26 07:51:46 +0200 <institor> damn why do i make such good food
2023-08-26 07:51:51 +0200 <shapr> heh, which comments?
2023-08-26 07:51:53 +0200 <shapr> ok no I have to go look
2023-08-26 07:52:01 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 07:52:09 +0200 <Axman6> let me know if you can't find it =)
2023-08-26 07:52:13 +0200 <institor> arugula, red cabbage, baby spinach, buttery scrambled eggs, mild cheddar, and a homemade mayo
2023-08-26 07:52:16 +0200 <institor> oh and hot sauce
2023-08-26 07:52:18 +0200 <institor> mmm
2023-08-26 07:52:19 +0200 <shapr> Axman6: I found 'em
2023-08-26 07:52:32 +0200 <Axman6> people winging Haskell is too hard so we shold all use Go or some nonsense
2023-08-26 07:52:38 +0200 <shapr> ha
2023-08-26 07:53:55 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 07:53:58 +0200g(g@libera/staff/glguy)
2023-08-26 07:54:08 +0200 <Inst> re: sclv: the bigger problem with what you're proposing, and I admit I haven't really thought about it, is what level of labor and talent is available
2023-08-26 07:54:25 +0200 <Inst> i.e, if you're just looking for a patch-up job, I don't think that would change that much
2023-08-26 07:54:41 +0200 <Inst> but on the other hand, that requires less labor
2023-08-26 07:55:23 +0200 <Inst> ideally, you'd also have work on expanding the ecosystem, i.e, providing new libraries, working on extending the capability of the Haskell ecosystem
2023-08-26 07:55:30 +0200 <Inst> but that'd require more labor and talent
2023-08-26 07:58:39 +0200artem(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 07:58:39 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 08:00:03 +0200Helle(~helle@user/Helle) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 08:02:21 +0200 <danza__> it's a short blanket as far as i understand it
2023-08-26 08:02:59 +0200 <danza__> there is just not enough capacity for haskell to meet the performance expected when comparing with other (larger) communities
2023-08-26 08:03:41 +0200 <danza__> "prioritising writing your first code is a fundamentally flawed idea for a business that expects to be developing for a long time" i think you nail it here Axman6
2023-08-26 08:04:10 +0200 <danza__> mainstream dev business does not expect to be developing for a long time
2023-08-26 08:07:17 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 08:08:29 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a)
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2023-08-26 08:19:07 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk)
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2023-08-26 08:22:42 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-26 08:24:44 +0200danza__(~francesco@151.43.225.202) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 08:25:21 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 08:26:30 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-08-26 08:31:12 +0200danza__(~francesco@151.35.246.65)
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2023-08-26 08:35:02 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-26 08:38:27 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk)
2023-08-26 08:42:58 +0200Axma81117(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2023-08-26 08:44:54 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-08-26 08:46:17 +0200 <Inst> danza: was your comment in reference to me, the short-blanket one?
2023-08-26 08:46:21 +0200lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2023-08-26 08:46:44 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-26 08:46:45 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 08:47:28 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-26 08:48:31 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-08-26 08:52:57 +0200 <danza__> it was in reference to the lines before, yes
2023-08-26 08:55:34 +0200 <Inst> danza: that's sort of a disaster, isn't it? It smells like a death spiral
2023-08-26 08:56:09 +0200 <Inst> not enough developerpower to keep the ecosystem running, and not enough developerpower to develop new libraries, and developers start leaving for ecosystem weakness
2023-08-26 08:56:23 +0200 <Inst> it might be useful to start by trying to do a census of how much developer power can actually be harnessed
2023-08-26 08:56:36 +0200 <[exa]> none.
2023-08-26 08:58:34 +0200 <[exa]> the whole idea of "harnessing the developer power" sounds completely wrong to me, we have foss contributors who are typically happy (yet overworked for a good reason); not sure if corporate-style disastermongering and "trying to save the thing" will help them a lot
2023-08-26 08:58:43 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> Nice link, thanks
2023-08-26 08:59:46 +0200 <[exa]> (whoops the "overworked for a good reason" above didn't translate from my native language very well, I meant "knowing to do it for a good thing" not "good they're overworked" :D )
2023-08-26 09:00:22 +0200 <danza__> Inst, not sure where your irony is heading to
2023-08-26 09:02:34 +0200 <Inst> iit doesn't have to be disastermongering, the idea is more that there might be incipient Haskellers, or Haskellers who've never tried working on FOSS projects before, who could lend a hand
2023-08-26 09:02:53 +0200 <Inst> but of course, mythical man month, might not help
2023-08-26 09:03:01 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7374bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-08-26 09:04:49 +0200 <Inst> I also think that, well, tooling, that's been a known issue but it's been improved a lot. The book issue; folks like Rebecca Skinner and others stepped up to the problem, and there's a lot of Haskell books floating around these days
2023-08-26 09:05:13 +0200 <Inst> so i mean, if the issue were made urgent, or at least made a focus, it sounds like there's labor available
2023-08-26 09:05:18 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67)
2023-08-26 09:07:39 +0200 <[exa]> Inst: but what issues?
2023-08-26 09:07:52 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 09:08:26 +0200 <danza__> we were talking about a post about a dev who decided to leave haskell ... it is linked above a couple of hours ago
2023-08-26 09:08:32 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-08-26 09:08:32 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82)
2023-08-26 09:09:25 +0200 <[exa]> danza__: oh this again... terrible disaster indeed. :]
2023-08-26 09:10:05 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2023-08-26 09:10:25 +0200 <Inst> tbh, it was more comments on the reddit thread, rather, like, a bunch of people pointing out issues with the ecosystem
2023-08-26 09:11:53 +0200 <Inst> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/comment/jxjybrh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web…
2023-08-26 09:12:40 +0200 <danza__> even far fetched criticism is an opportunity to improve the community. It seems to me though that we risk pushing a community to meet someone's agenda. See the comment above about mainstream dev business not being interested in long-term development
2023-08-26 09:14:08 +0200fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:60e9:5908:8baa:ab95)
2023-08-26 09:14:53 +0200 <Inst> i'd disagree with Axman6's point, i.e, there are dialects of Haskell that can serve different needs
2023-08-26 09:15:19 +0200 <Inst> see sclv reporting Gabriella Gonzalez being able to do 2 weeks to production code, the HN claim, various fast on-boarding for Haskell, etc
2023-08-26 09:16:07 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@185.65.135.247)
2023-08-26 09:16:21 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 09:18:32 +0200 <danza__> yeah, and in a well structured haskell codebase, newcomers can work on pure functions for a long time before having to tackle harder constraints. But i think he made a great point instead, this is still not enough for the industry. At which point we ought to ask whether we should follow the industry in its criteria
2023-08-26 09:19:15 +0200 <[exa]> (actually I recall seeing a much worse criticism piece on the young internets of 2000s, it was against the idea of sleeping on beds, humans weren't made for that etc. No solution offered. Was kinda illustrative for me.)
2023-08-26 09:21:05 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 09:21:19 +0200 <[exa]> danza__: the problem with industry is that the ultimate goal of all industry is "invest as close as possible to 0 money to get all problems solved". Nothing will ever be good enough for the industry.
2023-08-26 09:22:13 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2023-08-26 09:22:13 +0200 <danza__> a bit simplistic :]
2023-08-26 09:22:30 +0200 <Inst> danza__: there's actually two ways to do this, one is to dumb down the language, which is absolutely do not support, the other is to improve learning materials, which is what we've seen happen over the past 4-5 years
2023-08-26 09:22:45 +0200 <[exa]> danza__: unfortunately it's rather precise :D
2023-08-26 09:23:42 +0200 <[exa]> Inst: you might be soon hitting the problem that learning is an investment
2023-08-26 09:24:03 +0200 <danza__> Inst, two ways to do what?
2023-08-26 09:24:32 +0200 <danza__> to improve the community or to meet the industry's agenda?
2023-08-26 09:26:33 +0200 <danza__> which requires high-quality free software, evolving fast, adapting to proprietary technologies, and then gives back a laughable amount of the value it makes from it
2023-08-26 09:26:59 +0200 <danza__> or should i say "it takes" actually
2023-08-26 09:28:44 +0200 <danza__> and when i write high-quality, i refer to the industry's needs, which involve short-sighted development, as Axman wrote
2023-08-26 09:31:37 +0200qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 09:31:38 +0200 <Inst> the industry's agenda in something that is quick to learn
2023-08-26 09:32:21 +0200 <danza__> as i wrote, short-sighted development. And as [exa] wrote, learning is an investment
2023-08-26 09:34:06 +0200robobub(uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2023-08-26 09:34:54 +0200 <danza__> so yeah, we can deduce that the industry wants to invest little in its devs. What a surprise. Should we help with that?
2023-08-26 09:36:32 +0200 <Inst> I don't think that's true; rather, they have time discounting and expect a certain amount of return on investment.
2023-08-26 09:37:10 +0200 <Inst> they can have very high time discounting, of course, but what this boils down to is that you're right insofar as there's no point
2023-08-26 09:37:48 +0200 <Inst> in supporting industry in an implicitly exploitative labor model, but if what they want is to get better quality developers for less investment, i.e, efficiency of investment, I don't see the problem in working together on that
2023-08-26 09:38:04 +0200coot(~coot@89.69.206.216)
2023-08-26 09:39:16 +0200 <danza__> yeah let us work together than. The industry pays us and we make haskell better for them. Ops ... is that not what you do by paying an experienced dev? There ought to be something i have missed
2023-08-26 09:40:54 +0200 <danza__> oh yes ... right. You need to pay an experienced dev, and also publish their work as free software. Strange that does not happens more considering the needs for cheap better-quality devs
2023-08-26 09:43:26 +0200 <danza__> anyway this topic made me too caustic. Sorry about that Inst
2023-08-26 09:46:56 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2023-08-26 09:47:16 +0200 <Inst> no problem, i've been subject to more abuse, and i dn't think you were caustic
2023-08-26 09:48:07 +0200 <danza__> err but then i was abusive? O_O
2023-08-26 09:48:09 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@185.65.135.247) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2023-08-26 09:49:18 +0200 <Inst> not at all :)
2023-08-26 09:49:25 +0200 <danza__> phew ...
2023-08-26 09:49:35 +0200 <Inst> sorry, inferred such, half dead mentally right now and i should stay off the internets right now
2023-08-26 09:49:57 +0200danza__waves
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2023-08-26 11:43:17 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2023-08-26 12:26:19 +0200 <albet70> megaparsec or happy, which one is more easier to learn or use?
2023-08-26 12:30:04 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2023-08-26 12:41:37 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:52e4:e06e:5b2b:5859) (Quit: xff0x)
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2023-08-26 13:00:13 +0200jabuxas(~jabuxas@user/jabuxas)
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2023-08-26 13:06:29 +0200NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur)
2023-08-26 13:09:35 +0200 <fendor> never learned happy, so I will say megaparsec :)
2023-08-26 13:12:10 +0200 <institor> why megaparsec and not attoparsec
2023-08-26 13:12:19 +0200danza__(~francesco@151.19.242.182)
2023-08-26 13:14:05 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz)
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2023-08-26 13:15:01 +0200 <yushyin> there is also flatparse
2023-08-26 13:16:17 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@217.65.137.203)
2023-08-26 13:18:14 +0200nate2(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2023-08-26 13:18:34 +0200 <fendor> megaparsec comes with a handy comparison
2023-08-26 13:18:36 +0200 <fendor> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.4.1#comparison-with-other-solutions
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2023-08-26 14:03:01 +0200k3ut0i(~keutoi@223.230.26.106)
2023-08-26 14:03:29 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> megaparsec is best documented and most used
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2023-08-26 14:16:13 +0200 <Hecate> < Inst> it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal // I don't recall having offered such a thing?
2023-08-26 14:24:17 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 14:24:34 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::feb8)
2023-08-26 14:27:11 +0200 <stefan-__> did some xml benchmarking lately: https://github.com/dozed/basic-xml-benchmark-hs
2023-08-26 14:27:25 +0200 <stefan-__> are those results consistent with what you would expect?
2023-08-26 14:30:27 +0200 <stefan-__> I was a bit surprised that hxt performs so bad
2023-08-26 14:32:46 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> I suspect XML had faded by the time Haskell was popular so isn't super well supported
2023-08-26 14:32:52 +0200fweht(uid404746@2a03:5180:f:2::6:2d0a) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-08-26 14:32:59 +0200 <Inst> Hecate ;_;
2023-08-26 14:33:35 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> is parsing such a small piece of data useful for benchmarking ?
2023-08-26 14:33:45 +0200 <Inst> oh, you never did
2023-08-26 14:33:46 +0200 <Inst> ;_;
2023-08-26 14:33:56 +0200 <Inst> i checked the log, but at least the project is finally coming along well
2023-08-26 14:34:15 +0200 <Inst> i have some very aggressive and ambitious ideas for UI, though, not sure if it might be simpler to go with Bradrn and Absta's idea which is more conventional
2023-08-26 14:34:25 +0200 <Inst> each cabal stanza is represented as a floating window
2023-08-26 14:34:31 +0200 <Inst> which can be dragged and dropped
2023-08-26 14:35:01 +0200 <stefan-__> hackager, the readme shows only an example of the real data (data/neurips2022.xml)
2023-08-26 14:36:04 +0200 <Hecate> stefan-__: hackager is the bot, you probably want to talk to sm
2023-08-26 14:36:20 +0200 <Hecate> Inst: yeah, as sclv said, I'm overworked :)
2023-08-26 14:37:04 +0200 <Inst> well, at least can i get comments on what features from CLI cabal to support?
2023-08-26 14:37:45 +0200 <Inst> ughhh, maybe I can beg sclv for support on using cabal's own parser to read the cabal file?
2023-08-26 14:38:20 +0200 <Inst> Anyways, thanks for all your hard work on cabal! :)
2023-08-26 14:38:53 +0200hyvoid(~hyenavoid@222-0-178-69.static.gci.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 14:39:52 +0200 <stefan-__> ah lol ;)
2023-08-26 14:40:34 +0200 <stefan-__> where is hackager bridging to?
2023-08-26 14:42:04 +0200 <Inst> matrix
2023-08-26 14:43:02 +0200coot(~coot@89.69.206.216) (Quit: coot)
2023-08-26 14:43:08 +0200 <stefan-__> k
2023-08-26 14:46:10 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> I'm hoping geekosaur will rename it
2023-08-26 14:49:59 +0200tabemann(~tabemann@74-42-162-213.dsl2.nrwc.ny.frontiernet.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-08-26 14:50:49 +0200 <yushyin> oh no, a bot-based bridge, the worst of all :P
2023-08-26 14:51:20 +0200Simikando(~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk)
2023-08-26 14:53:35 +0200qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61)
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2023-08-26 15:03:43 +0200 <geekosaur> I can rename it but it means dropping and reregistering on both sides and it was enough of a pain the first time 😕
2023-08-26 15:04:17 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-26 15:04:56 +0200opqdonut(~opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:06:05 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::feb8) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:09:40 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:11:15 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-26 15:13:04 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> if/when you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible
2023-08-26 15:13:39 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> if you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible
2023-08-26 15:15:21 +0200 <ncf> is that the matrix bridge
2023-08-26 15:15:34 +0200 <ncf> can we make it ignore edits
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2023-08-26 15:46:52 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@146.70.168.180) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:48:02 +0200idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2)
2023-08-26 15:48:05 +0200fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a)
2023-08-26 15:50:02 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@146.70.171.100)
2023-08-26 15:50:34 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, I think it can ignore edits
2023-08-26 15:52:25 +0200 <geekosaur> sm, if the name's so important to you, pick one that isn't taken. I don't care, I *do* care that I'm only renaming it once
2023-08-26 15:54:46 +0200opqdonut(~opqdonut@scv.fixme.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:54:55 +0200opqdonut(opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi)
2023-08-26 15:55:09 +0200zincy(~tom@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:457a:3a02:3800:f74e)
2023-08-26 15:55:52 +0200ncf(~n@monade.li) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-08-26 15:56:18 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> is bridgebot taken ?
2023-08-26 15:57:11 +0200ncf(~n@monade.li)
2023-08-26 15:58:01 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:03:21 +0200 <juri_> can we just.. not have a matrix bridge? ;)
2023-08-26 16:06:12 +0200 <geekosaur> I assume that's the first thing all of the 10000+ channels that want bridging try
2023-08-26 16:06:17 +0200 <geekosaur> names are not per channe;
2023-08-26 16:06:37 +0200 <geekosaur> juri_, could yoiu have complained back when this was raised?
2023-08-26 16:06:47 +0200 <hackager> <s​m> I wouldn't assume that, obscurely named bots are the norm IME :)
2023-08-26 16:06:58 +0200 <geekosaur> even if I take down the matterbridge the plumbned room will return when EMS does
2023-08-26 16:10:15 +0200 <geekosaur> in any case "bridgebot" was taken within a week of libera opening
2023-08-26 16:10:31 +0200 <geekosaur> (/msg nickserv info bridgebot)
2023-08-26 16:11:52 +0200 <juri_> geekosaur: that would require more than idling. :)
2023-08-26 16:12:10 +0200 <geekosaur> this bikeshed will not be repainted
2023-08-26 16:12:19 +0200 <geekosaur> you aren't paying me enough
2023-08-26 16:12:32 +0200 <juri_> great. can we rename the bot purplebot, then?
2023-08-26 16:12:38 +0200 <juri_> i like my bikesheds purple.
2023-08-26 16:14:56 +0200paddymahoney(~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:15:50 +0200lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-08-26 16:17:52 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-08-26 16:19:21 +0200billchenchina(~billchenc@103.152.35.21)
2023-08-26 16:20:49 +0200coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl)
2023-08-26 16:27:07 +0200 <sm> bikesheds usually sit outside at the bottom of the garden. This is like installing a PA system in the salon that shouts its name before every speaker. I'll say no more :)
2023-08-26 16:27:11 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test1
2023-08-26 16:27:18 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt)
2023-08-26 16:27:20 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish)
2023-08-26 16:27:29 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test2
2023-08-26 16:27:32 +0200 <geekosaur> ugh
2023-08-26 16:27:42 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2023-08-26 16:28:09 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test3
2023-08-26 16:28:12 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test4
2023-08-26 16:28:23 +0200 <geekosaur> EditDisable doesn't seem to work
2023-08-26 16:28:35 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 16:28:55 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 16:29:08 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test5
2023-08-26 16:29:13 +0200 <hackager> <g​eekosaur> test6
2023-08-26 16:29:29 +0200 <geekosaur> 😞 it accepts editdisable but ignores it
2023-08-26 16:30:05 +0200 <Axman6> wow, not just annoying, but also breaking my terminal
2023-08-26 16:30:11 +0200 <Axman6> just*
2023-08-26 16:30:30 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2023-08-26 16:30:38 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82)
2023-08-26 16:30:51 +0200 <Axman6> annoying* (I don't even know if I made typos or if my terminal is showing me the wrong thing >____<)
2023-08-26 16:31:25 +0200 <geekosaur> showing you the wrong thing but if so that's more likely to be the unicode I used in the message I actually sent here
2023-08-26 16:31:42 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-fc05-5499-f77c-fbe5.res6.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 16:31:51 +0200 <EvanR> deeply saddened emoji
2023-08-26 16:32:48 +0200 <Axman6> yeah, the emojis above are breaking things is very fun ways - at least I know the issue isn't the macOS terminal like glguy and I were hypothosising recently
2023-08-26 16:32:54 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-26 16:33:20 +0200 <geekosaur> do you use tmux? run it with -u
2023-08-26 16:33:51 +0200 <Axman6> I do, and I believe I am (but will confirm shortly)
2023-08-26 16:34:32 +0200 <geekosaur> it may also depend on your font but last I checked pretty much all Mac fonts had full emoji support
2023-08-26 16:34:54 +0200 <geekosaur> granting that was 2017 but I doubt they dropped it
2023-08-26 16:35:32 +0200 <Axman6> yeah I can see the emoji above, but once they appear I get weird... smearing is the best I can describe it, somcharacters from one line will remine on that line when the screen scrolls
2023-08-26 16:35:49 +0200 <Axman6> (I'm using Blink on iPadOS at the moment)
2023-08-26 16:36:03 +0200 <Axman6> ok, brb, making sure I'm using tmux with -u
2023-08-26 16:36:07 +0200 <geekosaur> that's generally not accounting for width, most emojis are doublewidth
2023-08-26 16:36:08 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 16:36:37 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:36:44 +0200TheCoffeMaker_(~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219)
2023-08-26 16:36:52 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:36:58 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2023-08-26 16:38:02 +0200Axman6has returned and is bracing for emojii
2023-08-26 16:38:57 +0200 <EvanR> 👍 Thumbs Up Emoji 🧑 People 🐻 Animals & Nature 🍔 Food & Drink ⚽ Activity 🚀 Travel & Places 💡 Objects 💕 Symbols 🎌 Flags
2023-08-26 16:40:27 +0200 <Axman6> Well I can already tell hat's borked everything =)
2023-08-26 16:41:25 +0200 <albet70> Axman6 , blink is expensive
2023-08-26 16:41:41 +0200 <Axman6> https://ibb.co/YySWn2g
2023-08-26 16:42:02 +0200 <Axman6> Also also quite nice and includes a lot of useful tools
2023-08-26 16:42:33 +0200 <Axman6> It's also* maybe it's too late for me to be typing anthying
2023-08-26 16:43:12 +0200 <EvanR> oof
2023-08-26 16:43:46 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, it sounds like your terminal doesn't use wcwidth or equivalent to determine that emojis fit in 2 character cells instead of one
2023-08-26 16:43:51 +0200 <EvanR> looks like they tried to be clever clearing only letters that needed to be cleared, until something happened to throw off the aligment
2023-08-26 16:44:32 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-08-26 16:44:33 +0200 <geekosaur> and yes that's common (I don't know why, it costs more to move over <4 characters than to just re-emit them)
2023-08-26 16:44:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: https://rezmason.github.io/matrix/
2023-08-26 16:45:11 +0200 <Axman6> It might not be my terminal, since the same thing happens on blink and Terminal.app; it's possible one of the libraries glirc links to is missing some config for handling wide chars
2023-08-26 16:45:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: do emoji work in tmux directly
2023-08-26 16:46:03 +0200 <geekosaur> whose curses library are you using, the one that came with os x or a modern ncurses from e.g. brew?
2023-08-26 16:46:06 +0200 <Axman6> good question... I'm not sure how to test that easily
2023-08-26 16:46:17 +0200 <geekosaur> I would use the latter, apple libs tend to be ancient
2023-08-26 16:46:38 +0200 <Axman6> geekosaur: glirc is running on freebsd (with tmux and mosh thrown into the mix)
2023-08-26 16:46:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83\n"
2023-08-26 16:46:57 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com)
2023-08-26 16:47:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> should be a https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#%f0%9f%98%83
2023-08-26 16:47:25 +0200 <geekosaur> freebsd will have the same issue but you want ncurses from ports instead of curses from base
2023-08-26 16:47:50 +0200 <geekosaur> (and this si something of a well-known gotcha on fbsd)
2023-08-26 16:48:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> if bsd has ldd, then ldd $(glirc)
2023-08-26 16:48:35 +0200 <albet70> try irssi or erc on emacs?
2023-08-26 16:48:57 +0200Jackneill(~Jackneill@20014C4E1E1BB8003C546C11A7F363BB.dsl.pool.telekom.hu)
2023-08-26 16:50:18 +0200 <Axman6> yeah it looks like they work fine elsehwere like nano and that prinf (though the issues I get are when glirc scrolls itself, so not sure how to replicate that sort of interaction)
2023-08-26 16:50:54 +0200Axman6698(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2023-08-26 16:51:04 +0200 <geekosaur> right, this is almost certainly your (n)curses lib
2023-08-26 16:51:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: when you do printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83hi\n" , does the h end up after the smile or overlapping the smile
2023-08-26 16:51:32 +0200 <Axman6> yeah - I should check ifyou can set options for the ncurses install
2023-08-26 16:52:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: try ldd $(which glirc)
2023-08-26 16:52:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> shuold show which ncurses library it's using
2023-08-26 16:53:20 +0200Axman6698(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 16:53:43 +0200 <Axman6> withthe smile then hi, that works fine
2023-08-26 16:53:58 +0200 <EvanR> ncurses is named after standard procedure for when it doesn't work
2023-08-26 16:54:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> Axman6: yeah that sounds like geekosaur is right
2023-08-26 16:54:36 +0200 <Axman6> libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9
2023-08-26 16:54:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> that w would normally be promising
2023-08-26 16:55:35 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be)
2023-08-26 16:55:50 +0200 <Axman6> indeed
2023-08-26 16:55:51 +0200TheCoffeMaker_(~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:56:44 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 16:58:20 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-26 16:59:01 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> Not really because ports libs don't install there iirc
2023-08-26 16:59:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> why is a non-wide-char-ready ncurses calaled ncursesw
2023-08-26 16:59:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> *called
2023-08-26 17:00:46 +0200 <Axman6> apparently it's been built with wide character support sincd 2013 on freebsd
2023-08-26 17:01:17 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> I'd install ncurses from ports, read the post install notes to make sure it will be used instead of base, and reinstall glirc including dependencies
2023-08-26 17:02:10 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> Modern ncurses always does wide characters, ncursesw no longer exists
2023-08-26 17:02:36 +0200tomsmedingon arch has weechat linking to libncursesw.so.6
2023-08-26 17:02:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> and emoji work
2023-08-26 17:02:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> not bsd, though
2023-08-26 17:03:09 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> And the problem with older wide characters support is it wasn't necessarily Unicode
2023-08-26 17:04:55 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> tomsmeding: check that it's not a symlink
2023-08-26 17:05:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur[c]: /usr/lib/libncursesw.so.6 -> libncursesw.so.6.4, and the latter is not a symlink
2023-08-26 17:05:35 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> .6 is when they drop non-wide support
2023-08-26 17:05:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> so yes, but no :p
2023-08-26 17:06:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> to be sure, I have a .so.5, a w.so.5 and a w.so.6
2023-08-26 17:06:26 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> What file size?
2023-08-26 17:06:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's the non-w that doesn't exist
2023-08-26 17:06:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur[c]: 476K
2023-08-26 17:06:48 +0200 <geekosaur[c]> Odd
2023-08-26 17:06:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> arch weirdness potentially
2023-08-26 17:10:58 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
2023-08-26 17:11:47 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, so they went the other way instead (re non-w not existing)
2023-08-26 17:12:02 +0200 <geekosaur> arch gotta be different..
2023-08-26 17:13:19 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7374bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-08-26 17:19:37 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 17:19:55 +0200TheCoffeMaker_(~TheCoffeM@190.245.100.85)
2023-08-26 17:20:45 +0200falafel(~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net)
2023-08-26 17:20:47 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 17:21:14 +0200exarkun(~exarkun@user/exarkun) (WeeChat 3.8)
2023-08-26 17:23:21 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 17:24:06 +0200haskellbridge(~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 17:25:13 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 17:25:26 +0200haskellbridge(~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 17:26:32 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 17:26:54 +0200 <geekosaur> wat
2023-08-26 17:27:55 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 17:30:32 +0200hackager(~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 17:31:34 +0200 <geekosaur> missed one
2023-08-26 17:31:35 +0200haskellbridge(~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2023-08-26 17:31:41 +0200 <geekosaur> right, there we go
2023-08-26 17:32:02 +0200 <geekosaur> still called hackager on matrix, will have to see if I can switch nicks there or have to make a new account
2023-08-26 17:35:10 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-08-26 17:36:30 +0200 <geekosaur> new account needed 😞
2023-08-26 17:40:25 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2023-08-26 17:50:47 +0200 <EvanR> hackager and geekosaur unified
2023-08-26 17:51:10 +0200 <institor> what's so good about matrix
2023-08-26 17:51:20 +0200 <institor> it just seems overcomplicated
2023-08-26 17:51:29 +0200 <institor> you can fucking telnet into IRC
2023-08-26 17:51:37 +0200 <institor> and hand type the protocol
2023-08-26 17:52:09 +0200 <EvanR> i doubt you can telnet into this IRC
2023-08-26 17:52:32 +0200 <EvanR> IRC has gotten pretty complicated
2023-08-26 17:53:23 +0200fendor(~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 17:55:19 +0200 <hpc> has irc changed at all since the mid-2000s?
2023-08-26 17:56:46 +0200 <EvanR> feature creep!
2023-08-26 17:56:59 +0200 <EvanR> security measures
2023-08-26 17:57:00 +0200 <c_wraith> in expectation, at least. People expect SASL auth and TLS now.
2023-08-26 17:57:14 +0200 <c_wraith> those *existed* in the mid-2000s, but you could ignore them
2023-08-26 17:58:22 +0200 <hpc> eh, s_client instead of telnet then :P
2023-08-26 18:03:12 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 18:04:23 +0200qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 18:04:36 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-08-26 18:05:04 +0200 <geekosaur> these days ircv3 is rather more difficult
2023-08-26 18:05:21 +0200 <geekosaur> not sure if you can pretend libera is an old irc server any more
2023-08-26 18:05:40 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-08-26 18:06:12 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2023-08-26 18:12:16 +0200falafel(~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-26 18:16:12 +0200gatekempt(~gatekempt@user/gatekempt) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-26 18:17:56 +0200 <monochrom> In priciple, you can telnet into matrix or http for that matter, too.
2023-08-26 18:18:08 +0200ski(~ski@ext-1-496.eduroam.chalmers.se)
2023-08-26 18:19:05 +0200 <monochrom> For https and TLS and if matrix is on top of TLS too, just add stunnel :)
2023-08-26 18:19:53 +0200 <geekosaur> pantalaimon 😛
2023-08-26 18:20:23 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069)
2023-08-26 18:21:36 +0200perrierjouet(~perrierjo@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca)
2023-08-26 18:24:32 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 18:25:49 +0200perrierjouet(~perrierjo@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 18:26:04 +0200perrierjouet(~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca)
2023-08-26 18:26:07 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069)
2023-08-26 18:26:35 +0200perrierjouet(~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 18:32:20 +0200xmachina1(~xmachina@74.56.127.48)
2023-08-26 18:33:18 +0200jabuxas(~jabuxas@user/jabuxas)
2023-08-26 18:34:44 +0200xmachina1(~xmachina@74.56.127.48) (Client Quit)
2023-08-26 18:34:59 +0200xmachina(~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca)
2023-08-26 18:42:50 +0200billchenchina-(~billchenc@2a0c:b641:7a2:320:ee3e:47ca:6070:d71a)
2023-08-26 18:43:01 +0200billchenchina(~billchenc@103.152.35.21) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 18:45:46 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2023-08-26 18:48:37 +0200 <albet70> can haskell support union type?
2023-08-26 18:51:14 +0200 <int-e> % :i GHC.Exts.Any
2023-08-26 18:51:14 +0200 <yahb2> type GHC.Types.Any :: forall k. k ; type family GHC.Types.Any where ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Types’
2023-08-26 18:51:39 +0200 <EvanR> the Exception system uses something like that, based on Dynamic
2023-08-26 18:52:05 +0200 <EvanR> not exactly pretty
2023-08-26 18:52:13 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-08-26 18:52:15 +0200 <int-e> @quote unsafeCoerce
2023-08-26 18:52:15 +0200 <lambdabot> edwardk says: this breaks my previous record of 6 unsafeCoerce's in a line
2023-08-26 18:53:18 +0200 <EvanR> I'm mildly amused from recent days research into the status of unions in C for the purposes of doing hilarious reinterpret casts
2023-08-26 18:53:32 +0200 <EvanR> it's very bad don't do it, and everyone recommends it enthusiastically
2023-08-26 18:53:50 +0200 <geekosaur> ADTs can be tagged unions; the full generality of C unions it can't because it's type-unsafe by definition
2023-08-26 18:54:03 +0200 <int-e> EvanR: Where did you think the 'C' in 'core dump' comes from?
2023-08-26 18:56:25 +0200paddymahoney(~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2023-08-26 18:57:20 +0200paddymahoney(~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 18:57:24 +0200ripspin(~chatzilla@1.145.130.11)
2023-08-26 18:58:08 +0200 <dolio> You can make sound versions of C-alike unions. But of course they don't allow various things that people do with C unions.
2023-08-26 18:59:28 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2023-08-26 18:59:31 +0200 <int-e> `Any` was a fairly serious answer, actually; it's pretty much the ultimate untagged union, unless you want to include unboxed types in which case... well the garbage collecter will get very weird ideas and eventually your program will crash...
2023-08-26 19:00:19 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be)
2023-08-26 19:00:48 +0200 <monochrom> For simplicity, interpret "union" to mean the Haskell kind of union. Then, trivially yes, Haskell supports union types like "data X = X1 Int | X2 Bool | X3 X".
2023-08-26 19:01:04 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 19:01:05 +0200 <int-e> bo-ring
2023-08-26 19:01:24 +0200 <EvanR> oh nice, that seems pretty cool
2023-08-26 19:01:29 +0200 <EvanR> unions are great
2023-08-26 19:01:32 +0200 <monochrom> That is the most sensible interpretation because if you say "union" in #haskell what else are you supposed to expect?
2023-08-26 19:02:14 +0200 <monochrom> You go to ##c and say "function" you don't expect them to know you mean Haskell functions.
2023-08-26 19:02:34 +0200 <EvanR> trendy languages like elixir right now are trying very hard to come up with set theory based type systems, in which case union makes sense technically
2023-08-26 19:02:54 +0200 <monochrom> Yikes. That's an uphill battle.
2023-08-26 19:03:08 +0200 <EvanR> yes it's pretty complicated actually
2023-08-26 19:03:30 +0200 <monochrom> Tons of research languages tried and it's still rough. And to think research languages already have the best chance of doing it properly.
2023-08-26 19:03:33 +0200 <dolio> So, they're making type systems based on the most untyped mathematical system?
2023-08-26 19:03:56 +0200 <monochrom> And yeah, there's that, the fundamental impedence mismatch.
2023-08-26 19:04:14 +0200 <int-e> {{}} + {{},{{}}} = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}
2023-08-26 19:04:31 +0200idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
2023-08-26 19:04:52 +0200 <EvanR> https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2023/06/22/type-system-updates-research-dev/
2023-08-26 19:05:27 +0200 <dolio> I suppose it makes sense if you're trying to graft a type system on top of an untyped system. Use the mathematical system that sort of does the same thing.
2023-08-26 19:05:46 +0200 <EvanR> "I just think in sets"
2023-08-26 19:05:55 +0200 <monochrom> Hey set theory is grafting a type system on top of an untyped system. amirite? :)
2023-08-26 19:06:22 +0200 <monochrom> Oh heh you're already saying that.
2023-08-26 19:06:22 +0200 <int-e> no?
2023-08-26 19:06:48 +0200 <int-e> (not if you do "proper" everything-is-a-set set theory)
2023-08-26 19:07:08 +0200 <int-e> (the types? they're an illusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions)
2023-08-26 19:07:33 +0200 <monochrom> They should not be afraid to say "we are not doing a type system, we are doing a set system".
2023-08-26 19:07:50 +0200 <int-e> set in stone
2023-08-26 19:07:59 +0200 <albet70> https://yinwang0.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/pure-fp-and-monads/
2023-08-26 19:08:15 +0200 <EvanR> the first few versions of set theory were strongly typed, russell actually invented type theory in the process
2023-08-26 19:08:15 +0200 <monochrom> "llusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions" sounds like TeX and LaTeX :)
2023-08-26 19:08:24 +0200 <EvanR> so there
2023-08-26 19:08:38 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: aka typesetting without types
2023-08-26 19:08:44 +0200 <monochrom> hahaha
2023-08-26 19:09:04 +0200 <geekosaur> hey now, TeX makes no pretense of being typed
2023-08-26 19:09:17 +0200 <geekosaur> unless you count "stringly typed"
2023-08-26 19:09:37 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah to be fair it's LaTeX that gives an illusion of abstraction, reuse, and packages.
2023-08-26 19:09:41 +0200 <int-e> strings tie everything together on a shoestring budget
2023-08-26 19:09:59 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: And it actually does an amazing job.
2023-08-26 19:10:28 +0200 <int-e> sure, the abstractions are all leaky and you have artefacts like fragile commands
2023-08-26 19:10:43 +0200 <int-e> but it's much better than it has any right to be
2023-08-26 19:12:27 +0200Inst(~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 19:12:52 +0200 <int-e> albet70: I got to the second paragraph and I feel a strong bias already
2023-08-26 19:12:59 +0200ripspin(~chatzilla@1.145.130.11) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-26 19:13:27 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 19:14:17 +0200 <dolio> Hahaha, yeah.
2023-08-26 19:15:26 +0200 <monochrom> Have the author not heard of imperative programming?
2023-08-26 19:15:55 +0200 <monochrom> One doesn't need OO if one just wants to streamline side effects.
2023-08-26 19:16:37 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-08-26 19:16:45 +0200 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: OO and millenial entitlement are correlated >:)
2023-08-26 19:17:29 +0200 <int-e> I do agree that monads are a class of design patterns. And that some (mostly low level) things shouldn't necessarily be implemented in Haskell... Other than that... none of this damns Haskell as a programming language.
2023-08-26 19:17:38 +0200 <EvanR> so you want to do imperative programming in haskell let me first introduce you to some category theory
2023-08-26 19:17:45 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: the timing seems a bit off, no?
2023-08-26 19:17:58 +0200 <hpc> monochrom: there's an inheritance tax joke in there somewhere
2023-08-26 19:18:11 +0200 <monochrom> Hey I am entitled to a little bit of bias of mine, too :)
2023-08-26 19:18:28 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: sure
2023-08-26 19:18:52 +0200 <int-e> club of opinionated b*st*rds
2023-08-26 19:19:13 +0200int-eshows his member card
2023-08-26 19:19:30 +0200 <monochrom> But this is why I don't care about blogs and bloggers.
2023-08-26 19:20:07 +0200 <monochrom> Blogging merely amplifies the human nature that first you form an opinion then you rationalize it.
2023-08-26 19:21:06 +0200 <monochrom> "I like OOP more than I like FP, now let's invent some strawman arguments to make me sound reasonable"
2023-08-26 19:21:20 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 19:21:24 +0200artem(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-26 19:21:36 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
2023-08-26 19:21:40 +0200 <albet70> the author is very good at scheme
2023-08-26 19:22:46 +0200 <EvanR> what level of scheme are you on my dude
2023-08-26 19:22:51 +0200 <monochrom> That does not matter. I am known to have made even harsher criticisms on even bigger shots such as Alan Kay.
2023-08-26 19:24:03 +0200 <monochrom> One can even say that Alan Kay is very good at programming altogether, and I am still going to call him out on what I think he got wrong.
2023-08-26 19:24:52 +0200 <monochrom> Some of you have heard me saying "did you know that lunacy is measured in minikay?"
2023-08-26 19:24:59 +0200xmachina(~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3)
2023-08-26 19:25:00 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-26 19:25:23 +0200 <int-e> hmm... 'kay
2023-08-26 19:25:35 +0200xmachina(~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca)
2023-08-26 19:25:37 +0200 <monochrom> I was avenging Dijkstra :)
2023-08-26 19:26:13 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-26 19:28:07 +0200johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138)
2023-08-26 19:30:25 +0200 <EvanR> nanodijkstras, kibibytes, minikays, checks out
2023-08-26 19:31:11 +0200Rydwxz(~rw@cpe-75-82-51-90.socal.res.rr.com)
2023-08-26 19:31:40 +0200 <monochrom> Oops, it should be millikays or nanokays.
2023-08-26 19:31:56 +0200 <monochrom> millidijkstras and millikays and milliolegs
2023-08-26 19:32:08 +0200 <EvanR> or mibi
2023-08-26 19:32:32 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-08-26 19:32:35 +0200 <EvanR> millibi
2023-08-26 19:32:42 +0200 <EvanR> 1/1024
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2023-08-26 23:20:12 +0200 <wroathe> I can't seem to remember how to do this... Say I want a "nullary" function with a phantom type argument where I can do something like foo @'"test" and then have that function get the symbolVal of that type argument as the return value... what would be the syntax for doing that?
2023-08-26 23:20:51 +0200 <wroathe> phantom Symbol argument, I should say
2023-08-26 23:21:12 +0200 <wroathe> foo @'"foo" = "foo"
2023-08-26 23:22:46 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2023-08-26 23:26:56 +0200 <EvanR> Proxy ?
2023-08-26 23:27:39 +0200 <wroathe> Well, yeah, I'd have to use Proxy in the definition, but I'm just not remembering how the type of a function like this should look
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2023-08-26 23:27:58 +0200 <mauke> foo :: forall s. (KnownSymbol s) => String
2023-08-26 23:28:13 +0200 <wroathe> mauke: Thanks
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2023-08-26 23:39:52 +0200 <wroathe> lol, ScopedTypeVariables. That was the bit I was forgetting
2023-08-26 23:46:27 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-08-26 23:47:08 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-26 23:47:13 +0200 <wroathe> Hmm, is there a way to do this without turning on AllowAmbiguousTypes? https://gist.github.com/JustinChristensen/f100f54b4f08354a66a38aeb8e14cc77
2023-08-26 23:49:20 +0200 <ski> i guess `forall s. KnownSymbol s => Const s String' or somesuch
2023-08-26 23:50:26 +0200 <geekosaur> isn't that pretty much the exact circumstance for which AllowAmbiguousTypes is intended?
2023-08-26 23:51:06 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-08-26 23:51:28 +0200 <wroathe> Hmm, if it is I'll use it. It just seemed like a sledgehammer for what I think is a pretty common pattern
2023-08-26 23:51:41 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-26 23:51:43 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
2023-08-26 23:51:47 +0200 <wroathe> The context here is that I'm going to try to write a routine to generate postgresql CREATE TABLE statements from types that derive Generic
2023-08-26 23:52:24 +0200 <geekosaur> it really wants something like `forall a ->` which is still pending
2023-08-26 23:53:45 +0200 <wroathe> ski: Expected a type, but ‘s’ has kind ‘ghc-prim-0.8.0:GHC.Types.Symbol’ • In the first argument of ‘Const’, namely ‘s’
2023-08-26 23:54:29 +0200 <ski> er, sorry. should be `Const String s', not `Const s String'
2023-08-26 23:54:55 +0200 <wroathe> :k Const
2023-08-26 23:54:56 +0200 <lambdabot> * -> k -> *
2023-08-26 23:55:01 +0200 <wroathe> yup, thanks
2023-08-26 23:55:37 +0200 <ski> @kind Data.Tagged.Tagged
2023-08-26 23:55:38 +0200 <lambdabot> k -> * -> *
2023-08-26 23:56:37 +0200 <wroathe> Tagged might be more appropriate here?
2023-08-26 23:56:41 +0200 <wroathe> Given the use case?
2023-08-26 23:57:10 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@73.145.241.15) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-08-26 23:57:12 +0200 <ski> well .. i think geekosaur's sentiment applies
2023-08-26 23:57:31 +0200 <ski> (.. but you did ask for a way without `AllowAmbiguousTypes')
2023-08-26 23:58:12 +0200 <wroathe> Much to read about. Thanks for the tips.