| 2023-08-26 00:00:27 +0200 | glguy | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Quit: Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 00:00:29 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) |
| 2023-08-26 00:01:11 +0200 | glguy | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 00:01:47 +0200 | lena64t | (~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 00:05:28 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 00:05:30 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 00:05:30 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 00:05:40 +0200 | titiband1t | (~titibandi@user/titibandit) |
| 2023-08-26 00:05:55 +0200 | titiband1t | (~titibandi@user/titibandit) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 00:06:32 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 00:06:34 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 00:06:37 +0200 | forell | (~forell@user/forell) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 00:08:12 +0200 | lena64t | (~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) |
| 2023-08-26 00:09:21 +0200 | forell | (~forell@user/forell) |
| 2023-08-26 00:11:38 +0200 | ulysses4ever | (~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 00:13:21 +0200 | thegeekinside | (~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 00:16:35 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) |
| 2023-08-26 00:18:12 +0200 | notzmv | (~zmv@user/notzmv) |
| 2023-08-26 00:18:24 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Ping timeout: 606 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 00:18:28 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 00:24:54 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.57.233.135) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 00:25:01 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.231.153) |
| 2023-08-26 00:25:01 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 00:26:28 +0200 | thegeekinside | (~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) |
| 2023-08-26 00:30:42 +0200 | [_] | [itchyjunk] |
| 2023-08-26 00:37:34 +0200 | shapr | (~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:ffa9:4f64:3f6e:7248) |
| 2023-08-26 00:39:58 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 00:40:29 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 00:51:04 +0200 | jabuxas | (~jabuxas@user/jabuxas) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2023-08-26 00:59:31 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f9674bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 01:00:15 +0200 | sidy | (~sidy@user/sidy) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 01:10:19 +0200 | bratwurst | (~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) |
| 2023-08-26 01:11:16 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 01:13:41 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) |
| 2023-08-26 01:19:34 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 2023-08-26 01:19:43 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 01:20:05 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 01:20:42 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 01:21:02 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 01:23:32 +0200 | dsrt^ | (~cd@c-66-56-7-24.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 01:31:14 +0200 | lambdabot | (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200 | lambdabot | (~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu) |
| 2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200 | lambdabot | (~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 01:31:41 +0200 | lambdabot | (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) |
| 2023-08-26 01:42:06 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 01:44:40 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 01:44:40 +0200 | mvk | (~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::5235) |
| 2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116.255.1.151) |
| 2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116.255.1.151) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 01:46:02 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 01:47:40 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2023-08-26 01:50:53 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i5387090E.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 01:51:07 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:04 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | thegeekinside | (~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.231.153) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | cods | (~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | raym | (~ray@user/raym) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@cli-188-239-201-89.bbn.slav.dn.ua) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | son0p | (~ff@152.203.98.110) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | stefan-_ | (~cri@42dots.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | texasmynsted | (~username@99.96.221.112) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | mud | (~mud@user/kadoban) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@143.244.47.89) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | ph88 | (~ph88@91.64.60.212) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | geekosaur | (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | AlexNoo | (~AlexNoo@178.34.150.48) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | micro | (~micro@user/micro) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | mrmr1 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | bah | (~bah@l1.tel) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | piele | (~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | shailangsa | (~shailangs@host86-186-196-224.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | _xor | (~xor@ip-50-5-233-250.dynamic.fuse.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:15 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (*.net *.split) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200 | micro | (~micro@user/micro) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200 | cods | (~fred@82-65-232-44.subs.proxad.net) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200 | piele | (~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:20 +0200 | raym | (~ray@user/raym) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:24 +0200 | thegeekinside | (~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:27 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:27 +0200 | ph88 | (~ph88@ip5b403cd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:28 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.231.153) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:32 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@95.91.246.224) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:43 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@static-68-235-44-81.cust.tzulo.com) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200 | stefan-__ | (~cri@42dots.de) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@95.91.246.224) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:51 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) |
| 2023-08-26 02:00:59 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) |
| 2023-08-26 02:01:27 +0200 | texasmynsted | (~username@99.96.221.112) |
| 2023-08-26 02:01:36 +0200 | geekosaur | (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) |
| 2023-08-26 02:02:52 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i5387092C.versanet.de) |
| 2023-08-26 02:03:12 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@143.244.47.89) |
| 2023-08-26 02:04:26 +0200 | powderhorn | (~powderhor@207-153-12-54.static.fttp.usinternet.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) |
| 2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 02:04:43 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) |
| 2023-08-26 02:05:11 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) |
| 2023-08-26 02:05:12 +0200 | bah | (~bah@l1.tel) |
| 2023-08-26 02:05:24 +0200 | int-e | (~noone@int-e.eu) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 02:06:37 +0200 | int-e | (~noone@int-e.eu) |
| 2023-08-26 02:09:21 +0200 | TonyStone | (~TonyStone@74.76.57.186) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 02:11:11 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:13:00 +0200 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:22:29 +0200 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 02:23:01 +0200 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) |
| 2023-08-26 02:37:39 +0200 | mima | (~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-126.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:41:11 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@85-76-148-20-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 02:43:03 +0200 | shailangsa | (~shailangs@host86-186-196-224.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) |
| 2023-08-26 02:54:19 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) |
| 2023-08-26 03:08:24 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 03:11:09 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 03:11:40 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:11:41 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 03:13:51 +0200 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 03:15:56 +0200 | mvk | (~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::5235) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:20:27 +0200 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) |
| 2023-08-26 03:23:22 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i5387092C.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:24:15 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@98.45.169.16) |
| 2023-08-26 03:25:36 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker_ | (~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219) (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish) |
| 2023-08-26 03:25:41 +0200 | td_ | (~td@83.135.9.34) |
| 2023-08-26 03:25:54 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) |
| 2023-08-26 03:26:11 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 03:26:20 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 03:26:53 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 03:28:44 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:31:13 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) |
| 2023-08-26 03:38:20 +0200 | phma | (~phma@host-67-44-208-12.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 03:41:24 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@static-68-235-44-81.cust.tzulo.com) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4) |
| 2023-08-26 03:50:38 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) |
| 2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116.255.1.151) |
| 2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116.255.1.151) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 03:53:49 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 03:53:52 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:54:08 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 03:58:32 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78-11-179-96.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 03:58:38 +0200 | libertyprime | (~libertypr@203.96.203.44) |
| 2023-08-26 04:00:19 +0200 | azimut | (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 04:00:50 +0200 | azimut | (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) |
| 2023-08-26 04:00:51 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 04:02:46 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 04:07:29 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4) |
| 2023-08-26 04:07:47 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:09:06 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-137-138.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:11:43 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) |
| 2023-08-26 04:15:21 +0200 | bratwurst | (~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:17:45 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 04:18:42 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) |
| 2023-08-26 04:23:07 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:24:40 +0200 | notzmv | (~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:25:55 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.43.225.202) |
| 2023-08-26 04:26:00 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.231.153) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 04:29:12 +0200 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.150.48) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:29:13 +0200 | Katarushisu1 | (~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:29:53 +0200 | Alex_test | (~al_test@178.34.150.48) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:30:00 +0200 | thegeekinside | (~thegeekin@189.128.149.137) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:32:32 +0200 | Katarushisu1 | (~Katarushi@cpc147790-finc20-2-0-cust502.4-2.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2023-08-26 04:35:00 +0200 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.150.48) |
| 2023-08-26 04:35:27 +0200 | Alex_test | (~al_test@178.34.150.48) |
| 2023-08-26 04:42:26 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) |
| 2023-08-26 04:45:31 +0200 | extor | (~extor@ns3018124.ip-149-202-82.eu) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 04:52:33 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:10 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:24 +0200 | razetime | (~quassel@117.254.37.181) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:36 +0200 | td_ | (~td@83.135.9.34) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200 | lena64t | (~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:37 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 04:54:59 +0200 | lena64t | (~lena64t@gateway/tor-sasl/hck) |
| 2023-08-26 04:55:07 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) |
| 2023-08-26 04:55:12 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) |
| 2023-08-26 04:56:18 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i5387093E.versanet.de) |
| 2023-08-26 04:59:27 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 05:00:30 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 05:01:20 +0200 | nyc | (~nyc@2603-7000-a106-2fb5-0000-0000-0000-1f21.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:19:17 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:32:12 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cef:2100:bda0:603:2023:867f) |
| 2023-08-26 05:32:31 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc5:4600:f76a:14d4:532c:f16e) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 05:41:23 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 05:41:52 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:41:54 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 05:45:00 +0200 | razetime | (~quassel@117.254.37.181) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 2023-08-26 05:47:35 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 05:49:57 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@143.244.47.89) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:52:07 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.4) |
| 2023-08-26 05:52:33 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@146.70.168.180) |
| 2023-08-26 05:53:45 +0200 | bratwurst | (~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) |
| 2023-08-26 05:57:20 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 05:59:08 +0200 | bratwurst | (~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 06:03:44 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 06:03:55 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 06:04:34 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 06:29:10 +0200 | johnw | (~johnw@69.62.242.138) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) |
| 2023-08-26 06:34:30 +0200 | idgaen | (~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) |
| 2023-08-26 06:34:34 +0200 | extor | (~extor@ns3018124.ip-149-202-82.eu) |
| 2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) |
| 2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 06:34:59 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) |
| 2023-08-26 06:37:08 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) |
| 2023-08-26 06:37:46 +0200 | <Inst> | been thinking about this |
| 2023-08-26 06:37:47 +0200 | <Inst> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/leaving_haskell_behind_infinite_negative_utility/ |
| 2023-08-26 06:38:09 +0200 | <Inst> | I don't really have the position to propose or advocate for this, but how would Haskellers feel about declaring 2024 or 2025 to be the Year of the Haskell Ecosystem? |
| 2023-08-26 06:40:05 +0200 | k3ut0i | (~keutoi@223.230.26.106) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 06:42:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | is that like National Haskell Day but just 365 of it |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:09 +0200 | <EvanR> | the blogger basically switched to rust |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:23 +0200 | <institor> | > linking "posts" and "ideas" from reddit |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 | <institor> | ishygddt |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Variable not in scope: |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:25 +0200 | <lambdabot> | linking |
| 2023-08-26 06:45:55 +0200 | <Inst> | i mean ecosystem could use love |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:00 +0200 | <institor> | ah, i guess it's just one level of indirection from the actual "leaving haskell behind" blog post |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:03 +0200 | <institor> | which was indeed well written |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:04 +0200 | <Inst> | that was posted onto HackerNews |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:43 +0200 | <Inst> | everything in Haskell has improved dramatically over the past 5 years; the easiest retort to that poster is "you last used Haskell professionally in 2018 / 2019, tooling has advanced tremendously" |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:45 +0200 | <institor> | yes i have some 10+ yr old projects that are difficult to keep limping along thanks to the constant breakage |
| 2023-08-26 06:46:56 +0200 | <institor> | i ran into an issue with an older version of GHC on a pretty old stack LTS resolver |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:05 +0200 | <institor> | that simply wasn't going to be fixed because that version of GHC is two major versions behind |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | I learned to habitually click through the reddit links to the actual thing begin linked |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:19 +0200 | <institor> | the tooling prior to the emergence of stack |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:21 +0200 | <institor> | was disastrous |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | which was not obvious for a long time to me because it's not prominent |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:28 +0200 | <institor> | as for the academic obscurantism, i can't say |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:43 +0200 | <institor> | EvanR: reddit is the bottom of the barrel of the infosphere |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:50 +0200 | <institor> | i would simply refrain from using it entirely. |
| 2023-08-26 06:47:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | the reddit link was posted to hacker news? |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:05 +0200 | <institor> | the blog post that reddit linked to was |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:12 +0200 | <institor> | it was front page for a day or so |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:12 +0200 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:34 +0200 | <Inst> | the only thing that hasn't really improved that much is the ecosystem |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:46 +0200 | <Inst> | tooling, learning materials have improved a lot |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:50 +0200 | dtman34 | (~dtman34@2601:447:d000:93c9:57a0:c461:5e89:7cbf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 06:48:55 +0200 | <Inst> | I suppose hype, enthusiasm has died down a bit |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:04 +0200 | <Inst> | but ecosystem is where there's still room for improvement, no? |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:12 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: it would need serious industry investment to get onto the same level as other "mainstream" languages |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:26 +0200 | <Inst> | or you could be a Maoist |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:27 +0200 | <institor> | language ecosystems need real skin in the game to develop "enterpise-grade" tooling |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:35 +0200 | <Inst> | you mean the tooling stuff? |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:38 +0200 | <institor> | and cause a famine killing tens of millions? no thanks |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:48 +0200 | <shapr> | I think we write a shell script that wraps cabal and release it as the final release of stack |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:48 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: yes |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:52 +0200 | <Inst> | yeah, tbh, thanks for letting me think of how a year of Haskell ecosystem can go wrong |
| 2023-08-26 06:49:56 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm working on GUI cabal again |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:01 +0200 | <institor> | > GUI |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:03 +0200 | <institor> | > cabal |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:04 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: Data constructor not in scope: GUI |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:05 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: cabal |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:08 +0200 | <institor> | ishygddt |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:18 +0200 | <shapr> | what does ishygddt mean? |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:23 +0200 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144686948091437106/image.png |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:23 +0200 | <shapr> | Is that Yiddish? |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:25 +0200 | <institor> | "i seriously hope you guys don't do this" |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:33 +0200 | <shapr> | ah |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:34 +0200 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144707118579064912/image.png?width=22… |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:36 +0200 | <shapr> | so it is Yiddish, ok |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:40 +0200 | <institor> | haha |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | really, the idea that every language should make "be the next php, ruby on rails, server-side javascript, elixir, whatever" an objective seems questionable |
| 2023-08-26 06:50:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | when people say that about idris it's ridiculous |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:09 +0200 | <institor> | haskell and idris originated as research languages |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:18 +0200 | <institor> | not tools for private industry to "ship it" |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:20 +0200 | <shapr> | yup |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:29 +0200 | <c_wraith> | that's not strictly true of Haskell |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:32 +0200 | <Inst> | by Maoist, I just mean, declaring 2024-2025 the year of Haskell Ecosystem, asking people to contribute and try to make new libraries / help maintain and upgrade older libraries |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:38 +0200 | <shapr> | c_wraith: oh, how so? |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:45 +0200 | <shapr> | I thought Haskell was an open source version of Miranda |
| 2023-08-26 06:51:59 +0200 | <Inst> | like, you can't really direct the entire Haskell community toward making Cabal better / Stack / GHCup better |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:05 +0200 | <shapr> | why not? |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:15 +0200 | <shapr> | We could declare ourselves the entire community and then go fix things? |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:15 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: you need to pay a sizeable cohort of skilled practitioners to do that |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:17 +0200 | <Inst> | I think those projects are already relatively well-staffed, and can't really grow without creating coordination difficulties |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:21 +0200 | <institor> | which is what all the other major language ecosystems do |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:23 +0200 | <shapr> | mmm, no |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:29 +0200 | <institor> | and they need to dogfood whatever it is they build |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:29 +0200 | <shapr> | I mean, those projects are not well staffed |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:33 +0200 | <c_wraith> | the goals of the original Haskell committee were to make a language that could be used for language research and writing production software. Like, it was explicitly a goal. |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:36 +0200 | <institor> | on real projects in production |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:36 +0200 | <sclv> | cabal stack and ghcup all need more contributors |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:39 +0200 | <shapr> | yup |
| 2023-08-26 06:52:55 +0200 | <sclv> | i say this as someone who is a contributor to cabal, and who has worked on helping ghcup in the past |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:00 +0200 | shapr | hugs sclv |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:05 +0200 | <Inst> | well, what are the other options @institor? |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:06 +0200 | <shapr> | sclv: oh hey, will you be at ICFP? |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:11 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: i just presented one |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:18 +0200 | <Inst> | where's the money? |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:20 +0200 | <sclv> | the latter especially put out a call for more help, because its maintainer is overworked and needs to step back from doing as much active development |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:23 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: good question |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:31 +0200 | <sclv> | shapr: yep, looking forward to it! |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:37 +0200 | <shapr> | yay! I hope to see you there |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:47 +0200 | <Inst> | option 1: magical money acquisition, option 2: keep things as is, keep the same level of ecosystem growth, option 3: declare jihad? |
| 2023-08-26 06:53:48 +0200 | <shapr> | I send $20 a month to the haskell language server project |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:04 +0200 | <c_wraith> | The very first design goal for the original Haskell committee: "It should be suitable for teaching, research, and applications, including building large systems." |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:08 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc ben gamari has maintainer status on ghcup, no? |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:10 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: spoken like a redditor |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:15 +0200 | <shapr> | ben gamari has far too many things to do |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | Inst, option zero focus on a more appropriate language for the actual business objectives |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:32 +0200 | <shapr> | Last I checked, bgamari is also the GHC release manager and a few other things |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:42 +0200 | <Inst> | EvanR: option 4: give up, let Haskell slowly decay and accept senescence |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:46 +0200 | <Inst> | declare victory and use Rust instead |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:46 +0200 | <sclv> | we have more money behind haskell than ever before, and structure too, thanks to the haskell foundation |
| 2023-08-26 06:54:56 +0200 | <shapr> | sclv: oh that's great! I didn't know that! |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:19 +0200 | <Inst> | is just use Rust going to be a new Haskeller thing to say? |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:21 +0200 | <sclv> | i mean arguably the in-kind we've gotten from msr and galois etc in the past has been semi-comparable, but its much better structured and more sustainable now |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:35 +0200 | <EvanR> | yes use Rust for the enterprise server level stuff you're hinting at |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:38 +0200 | <shapr> | inst: want to attend one of the Haskell Foundation calls and see what things we could work on? |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | much better hype department |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:47 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: yeah? |
| 2023-08-26 06:55:51 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm really just a codemonkey, a redditor, and an idiot |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:02 +0200 | <shapr> | I saw you say code, so that's a yes? |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:09 +0200 | <Inst> | not really contributing, i guess the file asset manager lib i'm working on and the cabal GUI lib i'm working on |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:09 +0200 | shapr | grins |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:16 +0200 | <institor> | do you have an issue tracker |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:27 +0200 | <Inst> | is my hail mary on being relevant and useful |
| 2023-08-26 06:56:56 +0200 | <institor> | i am loathe to get on voice calls these days |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:07 +0200 | <institor> | it reminds me of living the corpo lifestyle |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:13 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: for cabal? https://github.com/haskell/cabal |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:17 +0200 | <institor> | for stack |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:25 +0200 | <shapr> | Oh, I dunno |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:26 +0200 | <institor> | i like to pretend cabal does not exist |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:32 +0200 | <shapr> | I like to pretend stack does not exist |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:36 +0200 | <sclv> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:36 +0200 | <institor> | hmmmm |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:38 +0200 | nyc | (~nyc@2603-7000-a106-2fb5-0000-0000-0000-1f21.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:39 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:47 +0200 | <Inst> | i like to pretend neither cabal nor stack exist ;) |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:55 +0200 | <EvanR> | just makefiles? |
| 2023-08-26 06:57:57 +0200 | <shapr> | I haven't written much Haskell the past few weeks, sadly. |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:00 +0200 | <institor> | ah yes we'll just rewrite everything |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:08 +0200 | <Inst> | i'm joking, just taking the third option on cabal vs stack war |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:08 +0200 | <institor> | i propose starting with the microarchitecture |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:18 +0200 | <Inst> | also implicitly, yes, makefiles & nix |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:28 +0200 | <shapr> | I do love nix |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:35 +0200 | shapr | looks for an easy issue |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:51 +0200 | <Inst> | how big is the Haskell production community, anyways? |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:57 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: did you find a nice stack issue? |
| 2023-08-26 06:58:57 +0200 | <Inst> | any estimates? |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:07 +0200 | <Inst> | IHP apparently managed to get 250 people working on IHP projects |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:17 +0200 | <Inst> | I'm derisive of IHP, but IHP exists, grows the community |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:24 +0200 | <institor> | shapr: nope |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:31 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:33 +0200 | <institor> | Inst: facebook ran haskell in production at some point |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:39 +0200 | <institor> | i think part of their spam filtering engine |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:42 +0200 | <Inst> | facebook should still be running Haskell in production |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:47 +0200 | <institor> | why |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:47 +0200 | <shapr> | facebook still does run haskell |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:52 +0200 | <Inst> | it was rumored that they decommissioned one of their Haskell systems |
| 2023-08-26 06:59:55 +0200 | <shapr> | they did |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:02 +0200 | <shapr> | they decommissioned the spam filter |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:04 +0200 | <shapr> | then they put it back |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:08 +0200 | <Inst> | wait what? |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:11 +0200 | <shapr> | yup |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:18 +0200 | dtman34 | (~dtman34@c-76-156-89-180.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:20 +0200 | <Inst> | it'll also be funny if Hasura can't rewrite it in Rust |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:23 +0200 | <institor> | https://engineering.fb.com/2015/06/26/security/fighting-spam-with-haskell/ |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:48 +0200 | <shapr> | inst: where's your file asset manager? |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:52 +0200 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:53 +0200 | <institor> | look, part of the reason private industry doesn't run haskell |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:56 +0200 | <Inst> | it's some basic prototype right now |
| 2023-08-26 07:00:59 +0200 | <institor> | is that it's hard to hire people to write it |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:05 +0200 | <institor> | and expensive to train them if they can't |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:16 +0200 | <institor> | and expensive to maintain those systems for reasons outlined in that infinitenegativeutility post |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:19 +0200 | <Inst> | the idea is that it just packages stuff via file-embed (I'm thinking about rewriting it), generate assets |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:24 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: no? |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:29 +0200 | <institor> | no?? |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:34 +0200 | <shapr> | agreed |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:43 +0200 | <shapr> | It's pretty easy to hire Haskell devs |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:46 +0200 | <institor> | i suppose if we could train people to write c++ |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:48 +0200 | <shapr> | and private industry does use Haskell |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:50 +0200 | <Inst> | create sha256 hash, verify vs sha256 hash, download files from internet, etc |
| 2023-08-26 07:01:52 +0200 | <institor> | we can train them to run anything |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:17 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: Have you had a Haskell job? |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:22 +0200 | <institor> | shapr: hah! i wish |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:24 +0200 | <shapr> | or worked at a company that used Haskell professionally? |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:28 +0200 | <shapr> | I've had two |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:36 +0200 | <institor> | maybe it's time to dust off the resume |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:39 +0200 | <shapr> | yeah, do it! |
| 2023-08-26 07:02:53 +0200 | <Inst> | it's not really a useful lib, just some convenience for people who can't be arsed to get data-files working or use a packager |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:17 +0200 | <shapr> | This job we made an Android app with Haskell |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:24 +0200 | <institor> | so bold |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:33 +0200 | <shapr> | yeah, it's in the play store if you want to try it |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:37 +0200 | <Inst> | oh wait, you were the guys who paid Obsidian money for 1 hour per week support? |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:38 +0200 | <institor> | i didn't even know you could target dalvik |
| 2023-08-26 07:03:40 +0200 | <shapr> | yup |
| 2023-08-26 07:04:00 +0200 | <institor> | wouldn't all the FFI be a pain |
| 2023-08-26 07:04:07 +0200 | <shapr> | https://shapr.github.io/posts/2023-07-25-android-app-in-haskell.html |
| 2023-08-26 07:04:10 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc you're still locked to 8.8, right? |
| 2023-08-26 07:04:12 +0200 | <shapr> | see look! shapr ! |
| 2023-08-26 07:04:16 +0200 | <shapr> | nah, 8.10.7 |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:16 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: so, having worked with about seventy professional Haskellers at different times, I think you can hire Haskell devs |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:33 +0200 | <shapr> | Having done some training at this job, I think you can train people even if they have zero prior experience |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:33 +0200 | <institor> | sure |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:42 +0200 | <institor> | but it's harder than working with masses of bootcamp devs |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:49 +0200 | <institor> | and you draw from a smaller talent pool |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:50 +0200 | <shapr> | mmmm, I'm not sure I agree |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:53 +0200 | <institor> | heheh |
| 2023-08-26 07:05:57 +0200 | <institor> | have you worked with bootcamp devs? |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:00 +0200 | <shapr> | oh yes, many times |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:29 +0200 | <shapr> | Some of them are extremely motivated and are quickly building understanding |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:33 +0200 | <shapr> | Some of them aren't |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:40 +0200 | <institor> | i am still scarred by my brief stint in web dev with the latter cohort |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:40 +0200 | <shapr> | It depends on the bootcamp |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:43 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:50 +0200 | <institor> | i tried explaining what "XOR" is |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:52 +0200 | <institor> | they just didn't get it |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:55 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 07:06:57 +0200 | <institor> | and had no inclination to understand |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:04 +0200 | <shapr> | I enjoy training and teaching, so I'm happy to work with anyone who wants to learn |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:09 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by liamzy_!~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a))) |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:10 +0200 | <shapr> | I learn just as much from motivated people |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:15 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:22 +0200 | <institor> | yes, teaching others is a great way to solidify your own understanding |
| 2023-08-26 07:07:34 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:27 +0200 | <Inst> | institor: you want me to drag out the HackerNews comment wherein someone claims they can train a newbie Haskeller to production level in 2-3 weeks on average |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:34 +0200 | <Inst> | and get them comfortable with the entire ecosystem within 6 months? |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:41 +0200 | <shapr> | Heh, I do know several people who can do that |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:45 +0200 | <institor> | look hackernews is a bubble of people who are halfway competent |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:49 +0200 | <shapr> | gabriella, for example |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:51 +0200 | <shapr> | I can't do that |
| 2023-08-26 07:08:56 +0200 | <institor> | maybe becoming less than halfway competent in recent years |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:06 +0200 | <Inst> | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23621930 |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:09 +0200 | <institor> | there are industry folk who don't even read hacker news at all |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:13 +0200 | <institor> | and couldn't care less |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:22 +0200 | <institor> | > Google |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:24 +0200 | <lambdabot> | error: Data constructor not in scope: Google |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:29 +0200 | <institor> | even in 2020 that was still cream of the crop |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:34 +0200 | <Inst> | https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:42 +0200 | <shapr> | frustrating thing is that Hacker News is the intellectial center for people who didn't read the article but will tell you why they're right anyway. |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:47 +0200 | <institor> | haha |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:57 +0200 | <institor> | shapr: that is an ancient and venerable tradition dating back to /. |
| 2023-08-26 07:09:57 +0200 | <shapr> | Like, that whole chunk of people who have never tried Haskell, but have very strong opinions on it |
| 2023-08-26 07:10:01 +0200 | <institor> | RTFA, you insensitive clod! |
| 2023-08-26 07:10:42 +0200 | <shapr> | I gave a talk today on a related subject |
| 2023-08-26 07:11:12 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: have you tried to teach Haskell to anyone? |
| 2023-08-26 07:11:37 +0200 | <institor> | not over any prolonged span of time no |
| 2023-08-26 07:11:47 +0200 | <shapr> | You should, it's really fun |
| 2023-08-26 07:11:52 +0200 | <shapr> | I mean, you might enjoy it. |
| 2023-08-26 07:11:59 +0200 | <institor> | maybe once i recover from burnout |
| 2023-08-26 07:12:14 +0200 | <institor> | those fucking on call shifts man |
| 2023-08-26 07:12:16 +0200 | <shapr> | I like the sudden burst of rainbows I see in someone's eyes when they finally get the idea of equational reasoning |
| 2023-08-26 07:12:32 +0200 | <institor> | i was disheartened to ctrl-f "referential transparency" in that infinitenegativeutility article |
| 2023-08-26 07:12:33 +0200 | <institor> | and find no results |
| 2023-08-26 07:12:45 +0200 | <institor> | but maybe that kind of academic jargon scares people away |
| 2023-08-26 07:13:17 +0200 | <shapr> | I'm giving a five minute talk on hole driven development next week |
| 2023-08-26 07:13:33 +0200 | <sclv> | its a fine article imho, by someone i recognize as a longtime productive haskeller. the things getty highlights as good i agree with. the things highlighted as painpoints i also agree could be better but also... i just don't mind. |
| 2023-08-26 07:13:42 +0200 | <institor> | the typechecker can serve the same purpose as a test suite in strongly statically typed languages |
| 2023-08-26 07:13:51 +0200 | <shapr> | I disagree |
| 2023-08-26 07:13:58 +0200 | <institor> | sure, it's actually even stronger |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:00 +0200 | <Inst> | and tbh, i'd be dishonest if i didn't admit HLS crashes on me at least twice an hour on a trivial project |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:01 +0200 | <Inst> | :( |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:01 +0200 | <institor> | types prove the absence of bugs |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:04 +0200 | <institor> | tests prove their existence |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:10 +0200 | <shapr> | Inst: which version are you using? |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:16 +0200 | <Inst> | latest, but i'm on arch |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:20 +0200 | <shapr> | is HLS being oom killed? |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:21 +0200 | <Inst> | and using something from AUR |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:30 +0200 | <sclv> | i learned to program with an emacs window and a console, and that's still how i do it. i used ides a bit in javaland and c# land and they were necessary, but in the end i'm happier when i don't need them, and with haskell i don't |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:33 +0200 | <institor> | the haskell package subtree in arch is hell |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:40 +0200 | <Inst> | i'd rather struggle through ctrl shift p |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:43 +0200 | <institor> | something always fucking breaks after a system update |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:49 +0200 | <institor> | i just gave up and do everything through stack |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:52 +0200 | <shapr> | institor: I don't agree. The type system can eliminate some flavors of errors, but you still need tests. |
| 2023-08-26 07:14:58 +0200 | <institor> | shapr: i use both |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:12 +0200 | <institor> | what i mean by that is you are constantly interrogating the system with both approaches |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:16 +0200 | <sclv> | right. you have to use a separate toolchain on arch -- stack, or ghcup+cabal both work. but avoid the system packages |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:20 +0200 | <institor> | to get feedback on how it's actually operating |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:29 +0200 | <institor> | and updating your mental model as you converse with the typechecker and/or test suite |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:33 +0200 | <Inst> | and restarting VSC |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:35 +0200 | <shapr> | I do like that approaoch |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:44 +0200 | <shapr> | I've called that "conversations with correctness" |
| 2023-08-26 07:15:54 +0200 | <institor> | that's an interesting turn of phrase |
| 2023-08-26 07:16:10 +0200 | <sclv> | the other point in getty's article is the breaking change stuff, and uh... i've never found it that bad. certainly not lately. we have a lot of people running around and fixing stuff up. and when we don't, its never more than half a day or so of effort to do it myself. |
| 2023-08-26 07:16:18 +0200 | <Inst> | sclv: Haskell IDE is really powerful for a beginner, though |
| 2023-08-26 07:16:30 +0200 | <sclv> | sure, it could be. i just.. wouldn't know |
| 2023-08-26 07:16:55 +0200 | <sclv> | i know when i left ides behind when i picked up haskell after a stint in javaland, at first it was really disconcerting, and then it was a relief |
| 2023-08-26 07:17:12 +0200 | <institor> | i still use vim for fuck's sake |
| 2023-08-26 07:17:22 +0200 | <Inst> | i wrote Haskell in wordpad for a bit, it was ironically more convenient because VSC was a resource hog, and so far, Helix / Vim are enigmas |
| 2023-08-26 07:17:26 +0200 | <institor> | vscoders and intellij users don't even know what that is anymore |
| 2023-08-26 07:17:50 +0200 | <Inst> | iirc, there's HLS support for Vim / NeoVim, and presumably Helix |
| 2023-08-26 07:17:53 +0200 | <sclv> | a difference between now and the Bad Old Days is i also use github codesearch a ton in browsing code, which you didn't have back then |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:07 +0200 | <institor> | yes i've run intero with neovim in the past |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:08 +0200 | <sclv> | but between that and haddocks and an adequate use of grep, i don't even bother with tags files |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:09 +0200 | <institor> | it's great |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:40 +0200 | <institor> | forget it, i just grep my way through everything |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:41 +0200 | <danza__> | tag files are robust, easy and handy |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:42 +0200 | <institor> | linux is the IDE |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:48 +0200 | <institor> | type faster |
| 2023-08-26 07:18:51 +0200 | <danza__> | with emacs, at least |
| 2023-08-26 07:19:12 +0200 | <sclv> | and when there's a missing library, i take it as an opportunity to try to write one, which is a good challenge. helps that i've had jobs that have afforded me that, i grant. |
| 2023-08-26 07:19:30 +0200 | <institor> | and then you get to quarterly review... |
| 2023-08-26 07:19:40 +0200 | <institor> | "what IMPACT have you had over the past four months??" |
| 2023-08-26 07:19:48 +0200 | <institor> | lmfao |
| 2023-08-26 07:20:01 +0200 | <institor> | it's all about the money dawg |
| 2023-08-26 07:20:13 +0200 | <danza__> | interesting that you thought it was difficult to hire haskellers, but never had an haskell job institor |
| 2023-08-26 07:20:16 +0200 | <sclv> | i get paid the same regardless |
| 2023-08-26 07:20:49 +0200 | <institor> | well maybe i will look for one |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:02 +0200 | <institor> | and not hate my life slinging "mainstream" languages |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:08 +0200 | <sclv> | my job is to write good software. the business side and managers can worry about money and impact -- the best way they get something that can actually be sold and maintained is to let us engineers cook |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:16 +0200 | <danza__> | oh, i see, you did not look for one yet |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:17 +0200 | <institor> | sclv: well spoken |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:30 +0200 | <Inst> | rtbh there are people who have the opposite impression, i.e, Haskellers are underemployed and are a good deal for the talent you get for the money |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:35 +0200 | <institor> | danza__: well i just fell into the grooves of the industry |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:44 +0200 | <institor> | i mean i could have networked my way into a haskell position |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:50 +0200 | <Inst> | Parsons tries to disabuse readers of that notion, though |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:52 +0200 | <institor> | i had a colleague who ended up working for fintech or something slinging haskell |
| 2023-08-26 07:21:59 +0200 | <institor> | though i find his peers somewhat intimidating |
| 2023-08-26 07:22:03 +0200 | <institor> | they _really_ know what they're doing |
| 2023-08-26 07:22:52 +0200 | <institor> | i'm not unhappy with my prior experience though |
| 2023-08-26 07:23:40 +0200 | <Inst> | so, @sclv: should I make a thread on Discourse to ask what people think about trying to do a year of Haskell ecosystem? |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:01 +0200 | <danza__> | do you really think that is how it works? |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:14 +0200 | <danza__> | you think an ecosystem can change with a community call? |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:18 +0200 | <institor> | haha |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:20 +0200 | <sclv> | idk if we're well situated for that effort yet. |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:24 +0200 | <institor> | as i said above you need real investment from people with skin in the game |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:31 +0200 | <institor> | who dogfood whatever it is they build on real production systems |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:32 +0200 | <sclv> | maybe next year -- there's a lot of work that's been coming down the pipes. |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:53 +0200 | <Inst> | yeah okay, i should focus on my projects |
| 2023-08-26 07:24:59 +0200 | <sclv> | i think it might be good to reach out to david and other hf people and see where you can best plug in, or how you could help coordinate something |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:28 +0200 | <Inst> | it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:28 +0200 | <sclv> | maybe like help to synthesize a big picture list of the main issues people want tackled -- which i know the hf has already put some work into, but you could help bring to fruition as a "hitlist" |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:35 +0200 | <Inst> | what I'm really trying to do is to trade a mentorship for labor deal |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:37 +0200 | <sclv> | hecate is overworked already lmao |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:52 +0200 | <Inst> | they're working on GHCup |
| 2023-08-26 07:25:56 +0200 | <Inst> | with bradrn |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:00 +0200 | <Inst> | on getting a GUI wrapper on that |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:19 +0200 | <sclv> | if we had a hitlist and a set of people leading the way on various initiatives, then a coordinated call for volunteers makes sense |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:24 +0200 | <Inst> | feels weird thta I'm moving faster because bradrn is working with gi-gtk or something like that, I'm working with monomer, and gi-gtk-declarative iirc is dead? |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:39 +0200 | <institor> | i'm going to make a breakfast wrap now |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:41 +0200 | <institor> | at 1am |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:43 +0200 | <sclv> | my experience organizing volunteers is you get people excited but they can't self-start, certainly not as a cohesive group, without a lot of surrounding structure |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:43 +0200 | <institor> | bbiab |
| 2023-08-26 07:26:53 +0200 | <Inst> | interesting |
| 2023-08-26 07:27:04 +0200 | <sclv> | picking maybe one infra tool and trying to give it more structure in development and help its onboarding could be a place to start |
| 2023-08-26 07:27:07 +0200 | <Inst> | but tbh the point of the post was more to ask for perspectives and see if HF wanted to get in on this and coordinate |
| 2023-08-26 07:27:24 +0200 | <sclv> | like maybe trying to do a series of intro-talks/hackathon events for hls, or a code formatter, or etc |
| 2023-08-26 07:27:29 +0200 | <Inst> | but you agree that ecosystem could use some love, and a coordinated volunteer effort through the community might improve things? |
| 2023-08-26 07:27:53 +0200 | <sclv> | sure, but also i think a lot of people agree and that's a big goal of HF already |
| 2023-08-26 07:28:05 +0200 | <sclv> | i'm trying to spitball to some concrete ways to get that going |
| 2023-08-26 07:28:26 +0200 | <sclv> | and i think maybe doing a rotating "onboarding/introduction" series to pieces of the ecosystem could be it |
| 2023-08-26 07:29:14 +0200 | <Inst> | could you specify what that means? |
| 2023-08-26 07:29:24 +0200 | <danza__> | i mean we are discussing GUIs and HLS, while fundamental tools like cabal are not in a great state |
| 2023-08-26 07:29:32 +0200 | drewjose | (~drewjose@223.178.84.241) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 07:29:43 +0200 | <sclv> | say one a month, with a few weekly blogposts 1) explaining the architecture of each 2) big outstanding future issues on the roadmap, and maybe 3) the state of the development process and then in the fourth week there's a remote hackathon where people can join and get assigned issues to start looking at and mentorship in working on them |
| 2023-08-26 07:29:48 +0200 | <Inst> | oh |
| 2023-08-26 07:30:16 +0200 | <Inst> | https://newaverageandpragmatic.blogspot.com/2023/08/haskell-kaiseki-cookbook.html |
| 2023-08-26 07:30:40 +0200 | <Inst> | i think one disappointment with Gabriella Gonzalez's |
| 2023-08-26 07:31:30 +0200 | <Inst> | oh wait, she DID do a tutorial |
| 2023-08-26 07:31:31 +0200 | <Inst> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3qjTVcU9cg |
| 2023-08-26 07:32:42 +0200 | <shapr> | sclv: onboarding would be great |
| 2023-08-26 07:33:45 +0200 | <Inst> | ah, i guess what we were thinking was different; i was thinking was more tutorial-oriented |
| 2023-08-26 07:38:30 +0200 | <Inst> | sclv? |
| 2023-08-26 07:39:47 +0200 | libertyprime | (~libertypr@203.96.203.44) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 07:42:05 +0200 | <danza__> | some here wrote that "people that follow hypes" (my interpretation of the term they used) are moving to rust, and that would not be bad for the haskell community |
| 2023-08-26 07:42:42 +0200 | <danza__> | *someone |
| 2023-08-26 07:47:06 +0200 | <Inst> | was the line "hipsters decamped to rust"? |
| 2023-08-26 07:48:44 +0200 | <danza__> | that was it |
| 2023-08-26 07:49:29 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 07:49:32 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 07:49:45 +0200 | <danza__> | admittedly my interpretation of "hipsters" was not accurate, but i wanted to link with the mention about hype occurring before in this conversation |
| 2023-08-26 07:50:06 +0200 | <Inst> | mine |
| 2023-08-26 07:51:38 +0200 | <Axman6> | i feel you've done a good job summing up my comments on lobste.rs |
| 2023-08-26 07:51:46 +0200 | <institor> | damn why do i make such good food |
| 2023-08-26 07:51:51 +0200 | <shapr> | heh, which comments? |
| 2023-08-26 07:51:53 +0200 | <shapr> | ok no I have to go look |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:01 +0200 | [itchyjunk] | (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:09 +0200 | <Axman6> | let me know if you can't find it =) |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:13 +0200 | <institor> | arugula, red cabbage, baby spinach, buttery scrambled eggs, mild cheddar, and a homemade mayo |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:16 +0200 | <institor> | oh and hot sauce |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:18 +0200 | <institor> | mmm |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:19 +0200 | <shapr> | Axman6: I found 'em |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:32 +0200 | <Axman6> | people winging Haskell is too hard so we shold all use Go or some nonsense |
| 2023-08-26 07:52:38 +0200 | <shapr> | ha |
| 2023-08-26 07:53:55 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 07:53:58 +0200 | g | (g@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 2023-08-26 07:54:08 +0200 | <Inst> | re: sclv: the bigger problem with what you're proposing, and I admit I haven't really thought about it, is what level of labor and talent is available |
| 2023-08-26 07:54:25 +0200 | <Inst> | i.e, if you're just looking for a patch-up job, I don't think that would change that much |
| 2023-08-26 07:54:41 +0200 | <Inst> | but on the other hand, that requires less labor |
| 2023-08-26 07:55:23 +0200 | <Inst> | ideally, you'd also have work on expanding the ecosystem, i.e, providing new libraries, working on extending the capability of the Haskell ecosystem |
| 2023-08-26 07:55:30 +0200 | <Inst> | but that'd require more labor and talent |
| 2023-08-26 07:58:39 +0200 | artem | (~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 07:58:39 +0200 | ulysses4ever | (~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 08:00:03 +0200 | Helle | (~helle@user/Helle) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:02:21 +0200 | <danza__> | it's a short blanket as far as i understand it |
| 2023-08-26 08:02:59 +0200 | <danza__> | there is just not enough capacity for haskell to meet the performance expected when comparing with other (larger) communities |
| 2023-08-26 08:03:41 +0200 | <danza__> | "prioritising writing your first code is a fundamentally flawed idea for a business that expects to be developing for a long time" i think you nail it here Axman6 |
| 2023-08-26 08:04:10 +0200 | <danza__> | mainstream dev business does not expect to be developing for a long time |
| 2023-08-26 08:07:17 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 08:08:29 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) |
| 2023-08-26 08:17:03 +0200 | mmhat | (~mmh@p200300f1c70427b4ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2023-08-26 08:17:35 +0200 | lottaquestions | (~nick@2607:fa49:503d:b200:5a77:1161:fea9:1c25) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:19:07 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) |
| 2023-08-26 08:20:06 +0200 | mmhat | (~mmh@p200300f1c70427b4ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 08:21:51 +0200 | idgaen | (~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2) |
| 2023-08-26 08:22:42 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 08:24:44 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.43.225.202) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:25:21 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:26:30 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) |
| 2023-08-26 08:31:12 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.35.246.65) |
| 2023-08-26 08:34:52 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 08:35:02 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2023-08-26 08:38:27 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) |
| 2023-08-26 08:42:58 +0200 | Axma81117 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) |
| 2023-08-26 08:44:54 +0200 | Axman6 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:46:17 +0200 | <Inst> | danza: was your comment in reference to me, the short-blanket one? |
| 2023-08-26 08:46:21 +0200 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2023-08-26 08:46:44 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 08:46:45 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 08:47:28 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 08:48:31 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 08:52:57 +0200 | <danza__> | it was in reference to the lines before, yes |
| 2023-08-26 08:55:34 +0200 | <Inst> | danza: that's sort of a disaster, isn't it? It smells like a death spiral |
| 2023-08-26 08:56:09 +0200 | <Inst> | not enough developerpower to keep the ecosystem running, and not enough developerpower to develop new libraries, and developers start leaving for ecosystem weakness |
| 2023-08-26 08:56:23 +0200 | <Inst> | it might be useful to start by trying to do a census of how much developer power can actually be harnessed |
| 2023-08-26 08:56:36 +0200 | <[exa]> | none. |
| 2023-08-26 08:58:34 +0200 | <[exa]> | the whole idea of "harnessing the developer power" sounds completely wrong to me, we have foss contributors who are typically happy (yet overworked for a good reason); not sure if corporate-style disastermongering and "trying to save the thing" will help them a lot |
| 2023-08-26 08:58:43 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> Nice link, thanks |
| 2023-08-26 08:59:46 +0200 | <[exa]> | (whoops the "overworked for a good reason" above didn't translate from my native language very well, I meant "knowing to do it for a good thing" not "good they're overworked" :D ) |
| 2023-08-26 09:00:22 +0200 | <danza__> | Inst, not sure where your irony is heading to |
| 2023-08-26 09:02:34 +0200 | <Inst> | iit doesn't have to be disastermongering, the idea is more that there might be incipient Haskellers, or Haskellers who've never tried working on FOSS projects before, who could lend a hand |
| 2023-08-26 09:02:53 +0200 | <Inst> | but of course, mythical man month, might not help |
| 2023-08-26 09:03:01 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7374bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2023-08-26 09:04:49 +0200 | <Inst> | I also think that, well, tooling, that's been a known issue but it's been improved a lot. The book issue; folks like Rebecca Skinner and others stepped up to the problem, and there's a lot of Haskell books floating around these days |
| 2023-08-26 09:05:13 +0200 | <Inst> | so i mean, if the issue were made urgent, or at least made a focus, it sounds like there's labor available |
| 2023-08-26 09:05:18 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67) |
| 2023-08-26 09:07:39 +0200 | <[exa]> | Inst: but what issues? |
| 2023-08-26 09:07:52 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bd6a) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 09:08:26 +0200 | <danza__> | we were talking about a post about a dev who decided to leave haskell ... it is linked above a couple of hours ago |
| 2023-08-26 09:08:32 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2023-08-26 09:08:32 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) |
| 2023-08-26 09:09:25 +0200 | <[exa]> | danza__: oh this again... terrible disaster indeed. :] |
| 2023-08-26 09:10:05 +0200 | Pickchea | (~private@user/pickchea) |
| 2023-08-26 09:10:25 +0200 | <Inst> | tbh, it was more comments on the reddit thread, rather, like, a bunch of people pointing out issues with the ecosystem |
| 2023-08-26 09:11:53 +0200 | <Inst> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/comment/jxjybrh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web… |
| 2023-08-26 09:12:40 +0200 | <danza__> | even far fetched criticism is an opportunity to improve the community. It seems to me though that we risk pushing a community to meet someone's agenda. See the comment above about mainstream dev business not being interested in long-term development |
| 2023-08-26 09:14:08 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:60e9:5908:8baa:ab95) |
| 2023-08-26 09:14:53 +0200 | <Inst> | i'd disagree with Axman6's point, i.e, there are dialects of Haskell that can serve different needs |
| 2023-08-26 09:15:19 +0200 | <Inst> | see sclv reporting Gabriella Gonzalez being able to do 2 weeks to production code, the HN claim, various fast on-boarding for Haskell, etc |
| 2023-08-26 09:16:07 +0200 | anandprabhu | (~anandprab@185.65.135.247) |
| 2023-08-26 09:16:21 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 09:18:32 +0200 | <danza__> | yeah, and in a well structured haskell codebase, newcomers can work on pure functions for a long time before having to tackle harder constraints. But i think he made a great point instead, this is still not enough for the industry. At which point we ought to ask whether we should follow the industry in its criteria |
| 2023-08-26 09:19:15 +0200 | <[exa]> | (actually I recall seeing a much worse criticism piece on the young internets of 2000s, it was against the idea of sleeping on beds, humans weren't made for that etc. No solution offered. Was kinda illustrative for me.) |
| 2023-08-26 09:21:05 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 09:21:19 +0200 | <[exa]> | danza__: the problem with industry is that the ultimate goal of all industry is "invest as close as possible to 0 money to get all problems solved". Nothing will ever be good enough for the industry. |
| 2023-08-26 09:22:13 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) |
| 2023-08-26 09:22:13 +0200 | <danza__> | a bit simplistic :] |
| 2023-08-26 09:22:30 +0200 | <Inst> | danza__: there's actually two ways to do this, one is to dumb down the language, which is absolutely do not support, the other is to improve learning materials, which is what we've seen happen over the past 4-5 years |
| 2023-08-26 09:22:45 +0200 | <[exa]> | danza__: unfortunately it's rather precise :D |
| 2023-08-26 09:23:42 +0200 | <[exa]> | Inst: you might be soon hitting the problem that learning is an investment |
| 2023-08-26 09:24:03 +0200 | <danza__> | Inst, two ways to do what? |
| 2023-08-26 09:24:32 +0200 | <danza__> | to improve the community or to meet the industry's agenda? |
| 2023-08-26 09:26:33 +0200 | <danza__> | which requires high-quality free software, evolving fast, adapting to proprietary technologies, and then gives back a laughable amount of the value it makes from it |
| 2023-08-26 09:26:59 +0200 | <danza__> | or should i say "it takes" actually |
| 2023-08-26 09:28:44 +0200 | <danza__> | and when i write high-quality, i refer to the industry's needs, which involve short-sighted development, as Axman wrote |
| 2023-08-26 09:31:37 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 09:31:38 +0200 | <Inst> | the industry's agenda in something that is quick to learn |
| 2023-08-26 09:32:21 +0200 | <danza__> | as i wrote, short-sighted development. And as [exa] wrote, learning is an investment |
| 2023-08-26 09:34:06 +0200 | robobub | (uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) |
| 2023-08-26 09:34:54 +0200 | <danza__> | so yeah, we can deduce that the industry wants to invest little in its devs. What a surprise. Should we help with that? |
| 2023-08-26 09:36:32 +0200 | <Inst> | I don't think that's true; rather, they have time discounting and expect a certain amount of return on investment. |
| 2023-08-26 09:37:10 +0200 | <Inst> | they can have very high time discounting, of course, but what this boils down to is that you're right insofar as there's no point |
| 2023-08-26 09:37:48 +0200 | <Inst> | in supporting industry in an implicitly exploitative labor model, but if what they want is to get better quality developers for less investment, i.e, efficiency of investment, I don't see the problem in working together on that |
| 2023-08-26 09:38:04 +0200 | coot | (~coot@89.69.206.216) |
| 2023-08-26 09:39:16 +0200 | <danza__> | yeah let us work together than. The industry pays us and we make haskell better for them. Ops ... is that not what you do by paying an experienced dev? There ought to be something i have missed |
| 2023-08-26 09:40:54 +0200 | <danza__> | oh yes ... right. You need to pay an experienced dev, and also publish their work as free software. Strange that does not happens more considering the needs for cheap better-quality devs |
| 2023-08-26 09:43:26 +0200 | <danza__> | anyway this topic made me too caustic. Sorry about that Inst |
| 2023-08-26 09:46:56 +0200 | _ht | (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) |
| 2023-08-26 09:47:16 +0200 | <Inst> | no problem, i've been subject to more abuse, and i dn't think you were caustic |
| 2023-08-26 09:48:07 +0200 | <danza__> | err but then i was abusive? O_O |
| 2023-08-26 09:48:09 +0200 | anandprabhu | (~anandprab@185.65.135.247) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) |
| 2023-08-26 09:49:18 +0200 | <Inst> | not at all :) |
| 2023-08-26 09:49:25 +0200 | <danza__> | phew ... |
| 2023-08-26 09:49:35 +0200 | <Inst> | sorry, inferred such, half dead mentally right now and i should stay off the internets right now |
| 2023-08-26 09:49:57 +0200 | danza__ | waves |
| 2023-08-26 09:50:22 +0200 | Pickchea | (~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 2023-08-26 10:56:40 +0200 | Axma81117 | Axman6 |
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| 2023-08-26 11:43:17 +0200 | [itchyjunk] | (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) |
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| 2023-08-26 12:24:04 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) |
| 2023-08-26 12:24:40 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.35.246.65) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 12:25:14 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.19.242.182) |
| 2023-08-26 12:26:19 +0200 | <albet70> | megaparsec or happy, which one is more easier to learn or use? |
| 2023-08-26 12:30:04 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2023-08-26 12:41:37 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:52e4:e06e:5b2b:5859) (Quit: xff0x) |
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| 2023-08-26 12:50:43 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.19.242.182) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 12:52:40 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2023-08-26 12:54:49 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2023-08-26 12:56:18 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:52e4:e06e:5b2b:5859) |
| 2023-08-26 13:00:13 +0200 | jabuxas | (~jabuxas@user/jabuxas) |
| 2023-08-26 13:02:23 +0200 | robobub | (uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2023-08-26 13:03:31 +0200 | NinjaTrappeur | (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3) |
| 2023-08-26 13:04:18 +0200 | ph88 | (~ph88@ip5b403cd4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2023-08-26 13:06:29 +0200 | NinjaTrappeur | (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) |
| 2023-08-26 13:09:35 +0200 | <fendor> | never learned happy, so I will say megaparsec :) |
| 2023-08-26 13:12:10 +0200 | <institor> | why megaparsec and not attoparsec |
| 2023-08-26 13:12:19 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.19.242.182) |
| 2023-08-26 13:14:05 +0200 | zer0bitz | (~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) |
| 2023-08-26 13:15:01 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@cli-188-239-201-89.bbn.slav.dn.ua) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 13:15:01 +0200 | <yushyin> | there is also flatparse |
| 2023-08-26 13:16:17 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@217.65.137.203) |
| 2023-08-26 13:18:14 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@98.45.169.16) |
| 2023-08-26 13:18:34 +0200 | <fendor> | megaparsec comes with a handy comparison |
| 2023-08-26 13:18:36 +0200 | <fendor> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.4.1#comparison-with-other-solutions |
| 2023-08-26 13:18:50 +0200 | danza__ | (~francesco@151.19.242.182) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 13:20:32 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) |
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| 2023-08-26 13:22:22 +0200 | lottaquestions | (~nick@modemcable010.180-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) |
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| 2023-08-26 13:23:59 +0200 | vglfr | (~vglfr@188.239.201.89) |
| 2023-08-26 13:28:50 +0200 | hugo | (znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) |
| 2023-08-26 13:30:42 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:52e4:e06e:5b2b:5859) (Quit: xff0x) |
| 2023-08-26 13:31:11 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:52e4:e06e:5b2b:5859) |
| 2023-08-26 13:50:38 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 14:00:16 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) |
| 2023-08-26 14:00:32 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 14:03:01 +0200 | k3ut0i | (~keutoi@223.230.26.106) |
| 2023-08-26 14:03:29 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> megaparsec is best documented and most used |
| 2023-08-26 14:04:58 +0200 | arahael | (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 14:05:59 +0200 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2023-08-26 14:12:22 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 14:13:02 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 14:13:28 +0200 | jabuxas | (~jabuxas@user/jabuxas) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2023-08-26 14:16:13 +0200 | <Hecate> | < Inst> it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal // I don't recall having offered such a thing? |
| 2023-08-26 14:24:17 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 14:24:34 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::feb8) |
| 2023-08-26 14:27:11 +0200 | <stefan-__> | did some xml benchmarking lately: https://github.com/dozed/basic-xml-benchmark-hs |
| 2023-08-26 14:27:25 +0200 | <stefan-__> | are those results consistent with what you would expect? |
| 2023-08-26 14:30:27 +0200 | <stefan-__> | I was a bit surprised that hxt performs so bad |
| 2023-08-26 14:32:46 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> I suspect XML had faded by the time Haskell was popular so isn't super well supported |
| 2023-08-26 14:32:52 +0200 | fweht | (uid404746@2a03:5180:f:2::6:2d0a) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2023-08-26 14:32:59 +0200 | <Inst> | Hecate ;_; |
| 2023-08-26 14:33:35 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> is parsing such a small piece of data useful for benchmarking ? |
| 2023-08-26 14:33:45 +0200 | <Inst> | oh, you never did |
| 2023-08-26 14:33:46 +0200 | <Inst> | ;_; |
| 2023-08-26 14:33:56 +0200 | <Inst> | i checked the log, but at least the project is finally coming along well |
| 2023-08-26 14:34:15 +0200 | <Inst> | i have some very aggressive and ambitious ideas for UI, though, not sure if it might be simpler to go with Bradrn and Absta's idea which is more conventional |
| 2023-08-26 14:34:25 +0200 | <Inst> | each cabal stanza is represented as a floating window |
| 2023-08-26 14:34:31 +0200 | <Inst> | which can be dragged and dropped |
| 2023-08-26 14:35:01 +0200 | <stefan-__> | hackager, the readme shows only an example of the real data (data/neurips2022.xml) |
| 2023-08-26 14:36:04 +0200 | <Hecate> | stefan-__: hackager is the bot, you probably want to talk to sm |
| 2023-08-26 14:36:20 +0200 | <Hecate> | Inst: yeah, as sclv said, I'm overworked :) |
| 2023-08-26 14:37:04 +0200 | <Inst> | well, at least can i get comments on what features from CLI cabal to support? |
| 2023-08-26 14:37:45 +0200 | <Inst> | ughhh, maybe I can beg sclv for support on using cabal's own parser to read the cabal file? |
| 2023-08-26 14:38:20 +0200 | <Inst> | Anyways, thanks for all your hard work on cabal! :) |
| 2023-08-26 14:38:53 +0200 | hyvoid | (~hyenavoid@222-0-178-69.static.gci.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 14:39:52 +0200 | <stefan-__> | ah lol ;) |
| 2023-08-26 14:40:34 +0200 | <stefan-__> | where is hackager bridging to? |
| 2023-08-26 14:42:04 +0200 | <Inst> | matrix |
| 2023-08-26 14:43:02 +0200 | coot | (~coot@89.69.206.216) (Quit: coot) |
| 2023-08-26 14:43:08 +0200 | <stefan-__> | k |
| 2023-08-26 14:46:10 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> I'm hoping geekosaur will rename it |
| 2023-08-26 14:49:59 +0200 | tabemann | (~tabemann@74-42-162-213.dsl2.nrwc.ny.frontiernet.net) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 14:50:49 +0200 | <yushyin> | oh no, a bot-based bridge, the worst of all :P |
| 2023-08-26 14:51:20 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) |
| 2023-08-26 14:53:35 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) |
| 2023-08-26 14:53:48 +0200 | tom__ | (~tom@host86-132-186-152.range86-132.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 14:54:05 +0200 | tom__ | (~tom@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:457a:3a02:3800:f74e) |
| 2023-08-26 14:58:53 +0200 | tom__ | (~tom@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:457a:3a02:3800:f74e) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:03:43 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I can rename it but it means dropping and reregistering on both sides and it was enough of a pain the first time 😕 |
| 2023-08-26 15:04:17 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2023-08-26 15:04:56 +0200 | opqdonut | (~opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:06:05 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::feb8) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:09:40 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:11:15 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2023-08-26 15:13:04 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> if/when you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible |
| 2023-08-26 15:13:39 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> if you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible |
| 2023-08-26 15:15:21 +0200 | <ncf> | is that the matrix bridge |
| 2023-08-26 15:15:34 +0200 | <ncf> | can we make it ignore edits |
| 2023-08-26 15:15:52 +0200 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 15:16:21 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) |
| 2023-08-26 15:17:12 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:60e9:5908:8baa:ab95) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:17:49 +0200 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) |
| 2023-08-26 15:20:09 +0200 | Simikando | (~Simikando@adsl-dyn1.91-127-51.t-com.sk) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 15:21:55 +0200 | opqdonut | (~opqdonut@scv.fixme.fi) |
| 2023-08-26 15:22:00 +0200 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) |
| 2023-08-26 15:22:24 +0200 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:23:41 +0200 | mima | (~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-106.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 2023-08-26 15:23:57 +0200 | stiell_ | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:25:23 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7374bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:29:29 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 2023-08-26 15:34:10 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) |
| 2023-08-26 15:34:10 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au) (Changing host) |
| 2023-08-26 15:34:10 +0200 | dobblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) |
| 2023-08-26 15:34:20 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-fc05-5499-f77c-fbe5.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 15:34:31 +0200 | dibblego | (~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:35:06 +0200 | dobblego | dibblego |
| 2023-08-26 15:39:25 +0200 | stiell_ | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) |
| 2023-08-26 15:46:52 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@146.70.168.180) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:48:02 +0200 | idgaen | (~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2) |
| 2023-08-26 15:48:05 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) |
| 2023-08-26 15:50:02 +0200 | ddellacosta | (~ddellacos@146.70.171.100) |
| 2023-08-26 15:50:34 +0200 | <geekosaur> | yes, I think it can ignore edits |
| 2023-08-26 15:52:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | sm, if the name's so important to you, pick one that isn't taken. I don't care, I *do* care that I'm only renaming it once |
| 2023-08-26 15:54:46 +0200 | opqdonut | (~opqdonut@scv.fixme.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:54:55 +0200 | opqdonut | (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) |
| 2023-08-26 15:55:09 +0200 | zincy | (~tom@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:457a:3a02:3800:f74e) |
| 2023-08-26 15:55:52 +0200 | ncf | (~n@monade.li) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 15:56:18 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> is bridgebot taken ? |
| 2023-08-26 15:57:11 +0200 | ncf | (~n@monade.li) |
| 2023-08-26 15:58:01 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:03:21 +0200 | <juri_> | can we just.. not have a matrix bridge? ;) |
| 2023-08-26 16:06:12 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I assume that's the first thing all of the 10000+ channels that want bridging try |
| 2023-08-26 16:06:17 +0200 | <geekosaur> | names are not per channe; |
| 2023-08-26 16:06:37 +0200 | <geekosaur> | juri_, could yoiu have complained back when this was raised? |
| 2023-08-26 16:06:47 +0200 | <hackager> | <sm> I wouldn't assume that, obscurely named bots are the norm IME :) |
| 2023-08-26 16:06:58 +0200 | <geekosaur> | even if I take down the matterbridge the plumbned room will return when EMS does |
| 2023-08-26 16:10:15 +0200 | <geekosaur> | in any case "bridgebot" was taken within a week of libera opening |
| 2023-08-26 16:10:31 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (/msg nickserv info bridgebot) |
| 2023-08-26 16:11:52 +0200 | <juri_> | geekosaur: that would require more than idling. :) |
| 2023-08-26 16:12:10 +0200 | <geekosaur> | this bikeshed will not be repainted |
| 2023-08-26 16:12:19 +0200 | <geekosaur> | you aren't paying me enough |
| 2023-08-26 16:12:32 +0200 | <juri_> | great. can we rename the bot purplebot, then? |
| 2023-08-26 16:12:38 +0200 | <juri_> | i like my bikesheds purple. |
| 2023-08-26 16:14:56 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:15:50 +0200 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2023-08-26 16:17:52 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2023-08-26 16:19:21 +0200 | billchenchina | (~billchenc@103.152.35.21) |
| 2023-08-26 16:20:49 +0200 | coot | (~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:07 +0200 | <sm> | bikesheds usually sit outside at the bottom of the garden. This is like installing a PA system in the salon that shouts its name before every speaker. I'll say no more :) |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:11 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test1 |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:18 +0200 | gatekempt | (~gatekempt@user/gatekempt) |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:20 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish) |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:29 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test2 |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:32 +0200 | <geekosaur> | ugh |
| 2023-08-26 16:27:42 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) |
| 2023-08-26 16:28:09 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test3 |
| 2023-08-26 16:28:12 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test4 |
| 2023-08-26 16:28:23 +0200 | <geekosaur> | EditDisable doesn't seem to work |
| 2023-08-26 16:28:35 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 16:28:55 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 16:29:08 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test5 |
| 2023-08-26 16:29:13 +0200 | <hackager> | <geekosaur> test6 |
| 2023-08-26 16:29:29 +0200 | <geekosaur> | 😞 it accepts editdisable but ignores it |
| 2023-08-26 16:30:05 +0200 | <Axman6> | wow, not just annoying, but also breaking my terminal |
| 2023-08-26 16:30:11 +0200 | <Axman6> | just* |
| 2023-08-26 16:30:30 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 2023-08-26 16:30:38 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) |
| 2023-08-26 16:30:51 +0200 | <Axman6> | annoying* (I don't even know if I made typos or if my terminal is showing me the wrong thing >____<) |
| 2023-08-26 16:31:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | showing you the wrong thing but if so that's more likely to be the unicode I used in the message I actually sent here |
| 2023-08-26 16:31:42 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-fc05-5499-f77c-fbe5.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 16:31:51 +0200 | <EvanR> | deeply saddened emoji |
| 2023-08-26 16:32:48 +0200 | <Axman6> | yeah, the emojis above are breaking things is very fun ways - at least I know the issue isn't the macOS terminal like glguy and I were hypothosising recently |
| 2023-08-26 16:32:54 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2023-08-26 16:33:20 +0200 | <geekosaur> | do you use tmux? run it with -u |
| 2023-08-26 16:33:51 +0200 | <Axman6> | I do, and I believe I am (but will confirm shortly) |
| 2023-08-26 16:34:32 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it may also depend on your font but last I checked pretty much all Mac fonts had full emoji support |
| 2023-08-26 16:34:54 +0200 | <geekosaur> | granting that was 2017 but I doubt they dropped it |
| 2023-08-26 16:35:32 +0200 | <Axman6> | yeah I can see the emoji above, but once they appear I get weird... smearing is the best I can describe it, somcharacters from one line will remine on that line when the screen scrolls |
| 2023-08-26 16:35:49 +0200 | <Axman6> | (I'm using Blink on iPadOS at the moment) |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:03 +0200 | <Axman6> | ok, brb, making sure I'm using tmux with -u |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:07 +0200 | <geekosaur> | that's generally not accounting for width, most emojis are doublewidth |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:08 +0200 | Axman6 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:37 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:44 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker_ | (~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219) |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:52 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:36:58 +0200 | Axman6 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) |
| 2023-08-26 16:38:02 +0200 | Axman6 | has returned and is bracing for emojii |
| 2023-08-26 16:38:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | 👍 Thumbs Up Emoji 🧑 People 🐻 Animals & Nature 🍔 Food & Drink ⚽ Activity 🚀 Travel & Places 💡 Objects 💕 Symbols 🎌 Flags |
| 2023-08-26 16:40:27 +0200 | <Axman6> | Well I can already tell hat's borked everything =) |
| 2023-08-26 16:41:25 +0200 | <albet70> | Axman6 , blink is expensive |
| 2023-08-26 16:41:41 +0200 | <Axman6> | https://ibb.co/YySWn2g |
| 2023-08-26 16:42:02 +0200 | <Axman6> | Also also quite nice and includes a lot of useful tools |
| 2023-08-26 16:42:33 +0200 | <Axman6> | It's also* maybe it's too late for me to be typing anthying |
| 2023-08-26 16:43:12 +0200 | <EvanR> | oof |
| 2023-08-26 16:43:46 +0200 | <geekosaur> | yeh, it sounds like your terminal doesn't use wcwidth or equivalent to determine that emojis fit in 2 character cells instead of one |
| 2023-08-26 16:43:51 +0200 | <EvanR> | looks like they tried to be clever clearing only letters that needed to be cleared, until something happened to throw off the aligment |
| 2023-08-26 16:44:32 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm) |
| 2023-08-26 16:44:33 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and yes that's common (I don't know why, it costs more to move over <4 characters than to just re-emit them) |
| 2023-08-26 16:44:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: https://rezmason.github.io/matrix/ |
| 2023-08-26 16:45:11 +0200 | <Axman6> | It might not be my terminal, since the same thing happens on blink and Terminal.app; it's possible one of the libraries glirc links to is missing some config for handling wide chars |
| 2023-08-26 16:45:30 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: do emoji work in tmux directly |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:03 +0200 | <geekosaur> | whose curses library are you using, the one that came with os x or a modern ncurses from e.g. brew? |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:06 +0200 | <Axman6> | good question... I'm not sure how to test that easily |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:17 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I would use the latter, apple libs tend to be ancient |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:38 +0200 | <Axman6> | geekosaur: glirc is running on freebsd (with tmux and mosh thrown into the mix) |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83\n" |
| 2023-08-26 16:46:57 +0200 | econo_ | (uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) |
| 2023-08-26 16:47:19 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | should be a https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#%f0%9f%98%83 |
| 2023-08-26 16:47:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | freebsd will have the same issue but you want ncurses from ports instead of curses from base |
| 2023-08-26 16:47:50 +0200 | <geekosaur> | (and this si something of a well-known gotcha on fbsd) |
| 2023-08-26 16:48:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | if bsd has ldd, then ldd $(glirc) |
| 2023-08-26 16:48:35 +0200 | <albet70> | try irssi or erc on emacs? |
| 2023-08-26 16:48:57 +0200 | Jackneill | (~Jackneill@20014C4E1E1BB8003C546C11A7F363BB.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) |
| 2023-08-26 16:50:18 +0200 | <Axman6> | yeah it looks like they work fine elsehwere like nano and that prinf (though the issues I get are when glirc scrolls itself, so not sure how to replicate that sort of interaction) |
| 2023-08-26 16:50:54 +0200 | Axman6698 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) |
| 2023-08-26 16:51:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | right, this is almost certainly your (n)curses lib |
| 2023-08-26 16:51:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: when you do printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83hi\n" , does the h end up after the smile or overlapping the smile |
| 2023-08-26 16:51:32 +0200 | <Axman6> | yeah - I should check ifyou can set options for the ncurses install |
| 2023-08-26 16:52:00 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: try ldd $(which glirc) |
| 2023-08-26 16:52:18 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | shuold show which ncurses library it's using |
| 2023-08-26 16:53:20 +0200 | Axman6698 | (~Axman6@user/axman6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 16:53:43 +0200 | <Axman6> | withthe smile then hi, that works fine |
| 2023-08-26 16:53:58 +0200 | <EvanR> | ncurses is named after standard procedure for when it doesn't work |
| 2023-08-26 16:54:21 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: yeah that sounds like geekosaur is right |
| 2023-08-26 16:54:36 +0200 | <Axman6> | libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9 |
| 2023-08-26 16:54:53 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | that w would normally be promising |
| 2023-08-26 16:55:35 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 2023-08-26 16:55:50 +0200 | <Axman6> | indeed |
| 2023-08-26 16:55:51 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker_ | (~TheCoffeM@190.245.118.219) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:56:44 +0200 | jmdaemon | (~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 16:58:20 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2023-08-26 16:59:01 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | Not really because ports libs don't install there iirc |
| 2023-08-26 16:59:41 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | why is a non-wide-char-ready ncurses calaled ncursesw |
| 2023-08-26 16:59:46 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | *called |
| 2023-08-26 17:00:46 +0200 | <Axman6> | apparently it's been built with wide character support sincd 2013 on freebsd |
| 2023-08-26 17:01:17 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | I'd install ncurses from ports, read the post install notes to make sure it will be used instead of base, and reinstall glirc including dependencies |
| 2023-08-26 17:02:10 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | Modern ncurses always does wide characters, ncursesw no longer exists |
| 2023-08-26 17:02:36 +0200 | tomsmeding | on arch has weechat linking to libncursesw.so.6 |
| 2023-08-26 17:02:43 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | and emoji work |
| 2023-08-26 17:02:52 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | not bsd, though |
| 2023-08-26 17:03:09 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | And the problem with older wide characters support is it wasn't necessarily Unicode |
| 2023-08-26 17:04:55 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | tomsmeding: check that it's not a symlink |
| 2023-08-26 17:05:33 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur[c]: /usr/lib/libncursesw.so.6 -> libncursesw.so.6.4, and the latter is not a symlink |
| 2023-08-26 17:05:35 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | .6 is when they drop non-wide support |
| 2023-08-26 17:05:36 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so yes, but no :p |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | to be sure, I have a .so.5, a w.so.5 and a w.so.6 |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:26 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | What file size? |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it's the non-w that doesn't exist |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:35 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur[c]: 476K |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:48 +0200 | <geekosaur[c]> | Odd |
| 2023-08-26 17:06:58 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | arch weirdness potentially |
| 2023-08-26 17:10:58 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) |
| 2023-08-26 17:11:47 +0200 | <geekosaur> | oh, so they went the other way instead (re non-w not existing) |
| 2023-08-26 17:12:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | arch gotta be different.. |
| 2023-08-26 17:13:19 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f7374bc765042e24c26.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2023-08-26 17:19:37 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 17:19:55 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker_ | (~TheCoffeM@190.245.100.85) |
| 2023-08-26 17:20:45 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net) |
| 2023-08-26 17:20:47 +0200 | TheCoffeMaker | (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 17:21:14 +0200 | exarkun | (~exarkun@user/exarkun) (WeeChat 3.8) |
| 2023-08-26 17:23:21 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 17:24:06 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 17:25:13 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 17:25:26 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 17:26:32 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 17:26:54 +0200 | <geekosaur> | wat |
| 2023-08-26 17:27:55 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 17:30:32 +0200 | hackager | (~hackager@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 17:31:34 +0200 | <geekosaur> | missed one |
| 2023-08-26 17:31:35 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) |
| 2023-08-26 17:31:41 +0200 | <geekosaur> | right, there we go |
| 2023-08-26 17:32:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | still called hackager on matrix, will have to see if I can switch nicks there or have to make a new account |
| 2023-08-26 17:35:10 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) |
| 2023-08-26 17:36:30 +0200 | <geekosaur> | new account needed 😞 |
| 2023-08-26 17:40:25 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2023-08-26 17:50:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | hackager and geekosaur unified |
| 2023-08-26 17:51:10 +0200 | <institor> | what's so good about matrix |
| 2023-08-26 17:51:20 +0200 | <institor> | it just seems overcomplicated |
| 2023-08-26 17:51:29 +0200 | <institor> | you can fucking telnet into IRC |
| 2023-08-26 17:51:37 +0200 | <institor> | and hand type the protocol |
| 2023-08-26 17:52:09 +0200 | <EvanR> | i doubt you can telnet into this IRC |
| 2023-08-26 17:52:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | IRC has gotten pretty complicated |
| 2023-08-26 17:53:23 +0200 | fendor | (~fendor@2a02:8388:1640:be00:af83:ade1:cd40:fe7a) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 17:55:19 +0200 | <hpc> | has irc changed at all since the mid-2000s? |
| 2023-08-26 17:56:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | feature creep! |
| 2023-08-26 17:56:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | security measures |
| 2023-08-26 17:57:00 +0200 | <c_wraith> | in expectation, at least. People expect SASL auth and TLS now. |
| 2023-08-26 17:57:14 +0200 | <c_wraith> | those *existed* in the mid-2000s, but you could ignore them |
| 2023-08-26 17:58:22 +0200 | <hpc> | eh, s_client instead of telnet then :P |
| 2023-08-26 18:03:12 +0200 | azimut | (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 18:04:23 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 18:04:36 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2023-08-26 18:05:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | these days ircv3 is rather more difficult |
| 2023-08-26 18:05:21 +0200 | <geekosaur> | not sure if you can pretend libera is an old irc server any more |
| 2023-08-26 18:05:40 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2023-08-26 18:06:12 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2023-08-26 18:12:16 +0200 | falafel | (~falafel@216.68.6.51.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 18:16:12 +0200 | gatekempt | (~gatekempt@user/gatekempt) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2023-08-26 18:17:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | In priciple, you can telnet into matrix or http for that matter, too. |
| 2023-08-26 18:18:08 +0200 | ski | (~ski@ext-1-496.eduroam.chalmers.se) |
| 2023-08-26 18:19:05 +0200 | <monochrom> | For https and TLS and if matrix is on top of TLS too, just add stunnel :) |
| 2023-08-26 18:19:53 +0200 | <geekosaur> | pantalaimon 😛 |
| 2023-08-26 18:20:23 +0200 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) |
| 2023-08-26 18:21:36 +0200 | perrierjouet | (~perrierjo@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 2023-08-26 18:24:32 +0200 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 18:25:49 +0200 | perrierjouet | (~perrierjo@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 18:26:04 +0200 | perrierjouet | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 2023-08-26 18:26:07 +0200 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c533:a387:9f57:1069) |
| 2023-08-26 18:26:35 +0200 | perrierjouet | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 18:32:20 +0200 | xmachina1 | (~xmachina@74.56.127.48) |
| 2023-08-26 18:33:18 +0200 | jabuxas | (~jabuxas@user/jabuxas) |
| 2023-08-26 18:34:44 +0200 | xmachina1 | (~xmachina@74.56.127.48) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 18:34:59 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 2023-08-26 18:42:50 +0200 | billchenchina- | (~billchenc@2a0c:b641:7a2:320:ee3e:47ca:6070:d71a) |
| 2023-08-26 18:43:01 +0200 | billchenchina | (~billchenc@103.152.35.21) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 18:45:46 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) |
| 2023-08-26 18:48:37 +0200 | <albet70> | can haskell support union type? |
| 2023-08-26 18:51:14 +0200 | <int-e> | % :i GHC.Exts.Any |
| 2023-08-26 18:51:14 +0200 | <yahb2> | type GHC.Types.Any :: forall k. k ; type family GHC.Types.Any where ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Types’ |
| 2023-08-26 18:51:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | the Exception system uses something like that, based on Dynamic |
| 2023-08-26 18:52:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | not exactly pretty |
| 2023-08-26 18:52:13 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 18:52:15 +0200 | <int-e> | @quote unsafeCoerce |
| 2023-08-26 18:52:15 +0200 | <lambdabot> | edwardk says: this breaks my previous record of 6 unsafeCoerce's in a line |
| 2023-08-26 18:53:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | I'm mildly amused from recent days research into the status of unions in C for the purposes of doing hilarious reinterpret casts |
| 2023-08-26 18:53:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | it's very bad don't do it, and everyone recommends it enthusiastically |
| 2023-08-26 18:53:50 +0200 | <geekosaur> | ADTs can be tagged unions; the full generality of C unions it can't because it's type-unsafe by definition |
| 2023-08-26 18:54:03 +0200 | <int-e> | EvanR: Where did you think the 'C' in 'core dump' comes from? |
| 2023-08-26 18:56:25 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2023-08-26 18:57:20 +0200 | paddymahoney | (~paddymaho@cpe883d24bcf597-cmbc4dfb741f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 18:57:24 +0200 | ripspin | (~chatzilla@1.145.130.11) |
| 2023-08-26 18:58:08 +0200 | <dolio> | You can make sound versions of C-alike unions. But of course they don't allow various things that people do with C unions. |
| 2023-08-26 18:59:28 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2023-08-26 18:59:31 +0200 | <int-e> | `Any` was a fairly serious answer, actually; it's pretty much the ultimate untagged union, unless you want to include unboxed types in which case... well the garbage collecter will get very weird ideas and eventually your program will crash... |
| 2023-08-26 19:00:19 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) |
| 2023-08-26 19:00:48 +0200 | <monochrom> | For simplicity, interpret "union" to mean the Haskell kind of union. Then, trivially yes, Haskell supports union types like "data X = X1 Int | X2 Bool | X3 X". |
| 2023-08-26 19:01:04 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 19:01:05 +0200 | <int-e> | bo-ring |
| 2023-08-26 19:01:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | oh nice, that seems pretty cool |
| 2023-08-26 19:01:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | unions are great |
| 2023-08-26 19:01:32 +0200 | <monochrom> | That is the most sensible interpretation because if you say "union" in #haskell what else are you supposed to expect? |
| 2023-08-26 19:02:14 +0200 | <monochrom> | You go to ##c and say "function" you don't expect them to know you mean Haskell functions. |
| 2023-08-26 19:02:34 +0200 | <EvanR> | trendy languages like elixir right now are trying very hard to come up with set theory based type systems, in which case union makes sense technically |
| 2023-08-26 19:02:54 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yikes. That's an uphill battle. |
| 2023-08-26 19:03:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | yes it's pretty complicated actually |
| 2023-08-26 19:03:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | Tons of research languages tried and it's still rough. And to think research languages already have the best chance of doing it properly. |
| 2023-08-26 19:03:33 +0200 | <dolio> | So, they're making type systems based on the most untyped mathematical system? |
| 2023-08-26 19:03:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | And yeah, there's that, the fundamental impedence mismatch. |
| 2023-08-26 19:04:14 +0200 | <int-e> | {{}} + {{},{{}}} = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} |
| 2023-08-26 19:04:31 +0200 | idgaen | (~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) |
| 2023-08-26 19:04:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2023/06/22/type-system-updates-research-dev/ |
| 2023-08-26 19:05:27 +0200 | <dolio> | I suppose it makes sense if you're trying to graft a type system on top of an untyped system. Use the mathematical system that sort of does the same thing. |
| 2023-08-26 19:05:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | "I just think in sets" |
| 2023-08-26 19:05:55 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hey set theory is grafting a type system on top of an untyped system. amirite? :) |
| 2023-08-26 19:06:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oh heh you're already saying that. |
| 2023-08-26 19:06:22 +0200 | <int-e> | no? |
| 2023-08-26 19:06:48 +0200 | <int-e> | (not if you do "proper" everything-is-a-set set theory) |
| 2023-08-26 19:07:08 +0200 | <int-e> | (the types? they're an illusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions) |
| 2023-08-26 19:07:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | They should not be afraid to say "we are not doing a type system, we are doing a set system". |
| 2023-08-26 19:07:50 +0200 | <int-e> | set in stone |
| 2023-08-26 19:07:59 +0200 | <albet70> | https://yinwang0.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/pure-fp-and-monads/ |
| 2023-08-26 19:08:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | the first few versions of set theory were strongly typed, russell actually invented type theory in the process |
| 2023-08-26 19:08:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | "llusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions" sounds like TeX and LaTeX :) |
| 2023-08-26 19:08:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | so there |
| 2023-08-26 19:08:38 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: aka typesetting without types |
| 2023-08-26 19:08:44 +0200 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 2023-08-26 19:09:04 +0200 | <geekosaur> | hey now, TeX makes no pretense of being typed |
| 2023-08-26 19:09:17 +0200 | <geekosaur> | unless you count "stringly typed" |
| 2023-08-26 19:09:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah to be fair it's LaTeX that gives an illusion of abstraction, reuse, and packages. |
| 2023-08-26 19:09:41 +0200 | <int-e> | strings tie everything together on a shoestring budget |
| 2023-08-26 19:09:59 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: And it actually does an amazing job. |
| 2023-08-26 19:10:28 +0200 | <int-e> | sure, the abstractions are all leaky and you have artefacts like fragile commands |
| 2023-08-26 19:10:43 +0200 | <int-e> | but it's much better than it has any right to be |
| 2023-08-26 19:12:27 +0200 | Inst | (~liamzy@2601:6c4:4085:6d50::bb82) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 19:12:52 +0200 | <int-e> | albet70: I got to the second paragraph and I feel a strong bias already |
| 2023-08-26 19:12:59 +0200 | ripspin | (~chatzilla@1.145.130.11) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 19:13:27 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 19:14:17 +0200 | <dolio> | Hahaha, yeah. |
| 2023-08-26 19:15:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | Have the author not heard of imperative programming? |
| 2023-08-26 19:15:55 +0200 | <monochrom> | One doesn't need OO if one just wants to streamline side effects. |
| 2023-08-26 19:16:37 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 19:16:45 +0200 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: OO and millenial entitlement are correlated >:) |
| 2023-08-26 19:17:29 +0200 | <int-e> | I do agree that monads are a class of design patterns. And that some (mostly low level) things shouldn't necessarily be implemented in Haskell... Other than that... none of this damns Haskell as a programming language. |
| 2023-08-26 19:17:38 +0200 | <EvanR> | so you want to do imperative programming in haskell let me first introduce you to some category theory |
| 2023-08-26 19:17:45 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: the timing seems a bit off, no? |
| 2023-08-26 19:17:58 +0200 | <hpc> | monochrom: there's an inheritance tax joke in there somewhere |
| 2023-08-26 19:18:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hey I am entitled to a little bit of bias of mine, too :) |
| 2023-08-26 19:18:28 +0200 | <int-e> | monochrom: sure |
| 2023-08-26 19:18:52 +0200 | <int-e> | club of opinionated b*st*rds |
| 2023-08-26 19:19:13 +0200 | int-e | shows his member card |
| 2023-08-26 19:19:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | But this is why I don't care about blogs and bloggers. |
| 2023-08-26 19:20:07 +0200 | <monochrom> | Blogging merely amplifies the human nature that first you form an opinion then you rationalize it. |
| 2023-08-26 19:21:06 +0200 | <monochrom> | "I like OOP more than I like FP, now let's invent some strawman arguments to make me sound reasonable" |
| 2023-08-26 19:21:20 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 19:21:24 +0200 | artem | (~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 19:21:36 +0200 | ulysses4ever | (~artem@c-73-103-90-145.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 19:21:40 +0200 | <albet70> | the author is very good at scheme |
| 2023-08-26 19:22:46 +0200 | <EvanR> | what level of scheme are you on my dude |
| 2023-08-26 19:22:51 +0200 | <monochrom> | That does not matter. I am known to have made even harsher criticisms on even bigger shots such as Alan Kay. |
| 2023-08-26 19:24:03 +0200 | <monochrom> | One can even say that Alan Kay is very good at programming altogether, and I am still going to call him out on what I think he got wrong. |
| 2023-08-26 19:24:52 +0200 | <monochrom> | Some of you have heard me saying "did you know that lunacy is measured in minikay?" |
| 2023-08-26 19:24:59 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3) |
| 2023-08-26 19:25:00 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 19:25:23 +0200 | <int-e> | hmm... 'kay |
| 2023-08-26 19:25:35 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 2023-08-26 19:25:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | I was avenging Dijkstra :) |
| 2023-08-26 19:26:13 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 19:28:07 +0200 | johnw | (~johnw@69.62.242.138) |
| 2023-08-26 19:30:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | nanodijkstras, kibibytes, minikays, checks out |
| 2023-08-26 19:31:11 +0200 | Rydwxz | (~rw@cpe-75-82-51-90.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 2023-08-26 19:31:40 +0200 | <monochrom> | Oops, it should be millikays or nanokays. |
| 2023-08-26 19:31:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | millidijkstras and millikays and milliolegs |
| 2023-08-26 19:32:08 +0200 | <EvanR> | or mibi |
| 2023-08-26 19:32:32 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm) |
| 2023-08-26 19:32:35 +0200 | <EvanR> | millibi |
| 2023-08-26 19:32:42 +0200 | <EvanR> | 1/1024 |
| 2023-08-26 19:39:46 +0200 | mima | (~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-106.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 19:47:25 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) |
| 2023-08-26 19:48:35 +0200 | dhil | (~dhil@78.45.150.83.ewm.ftth.as8758.net) |
| 2023-08-26 20:05:00 +0200 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 20:05:42 +0200 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) |
| 2023-08-26 20:11:46 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3) |
| 2023-08-26 20:12:24 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 2023-08-26 20:18:18 +0200 | dcoutts | (~duncan@31.94.3.174) |
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| 2023-08-26 23:12:09 +0200 | johnw_ | (~johnw@69.62.242.138) |
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| 2023-08-26 23:19:56 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
| 2023-08-26 23:20:12 +0200 | <wroathe> | I can't seem to remember how to do this... Say I want a "nullary" function with a phantom type argument where I can do something like foo @'"test" and then have that function get the symbolVal of that type argument as the return value... what would be the syntax for doing that? |
| 2023-08-26 23:20:51 +0200 | <wroathe> | phantom Symbol argument, I should say |
| 2023-08-26 23:21:12 +0200 | <wroathe> | foo @'"foo" = "foo" |
| 2023-08-26 23:22:46 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 2023-08-26 23:25:59 +0200 | _ht | (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2023-08-26 23:26:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | Proxy ? |
| 2023-08-26 23:27:39 +0200 | <wroathe> | Well, yeah, I'd have to use Proxy in the definition, but I'm just not remembering how the type of a function like this should look |
| 2023-08-26 23:27:51 +0200 | nate2 | (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 23:27:56 +0200 | xmachina | (~xmachina@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.3) |
| 2023-08-26 23:27:58 +0200 | <mauke> | foo :: forall s. (KnownSymbol s) => String |
| 2023-08-26 23:28:13 +0200 | <wroathe> | mauke: Thanks |
| 2023-08-26 23:29:02 +0200 | artem | (~artem@73.145.241.15) |
| 2023-08-26 23:29:54 +0200 | Rydwxz | (~rw@cpe-75-82-51-90.socal.res.rr.com) |
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| 2023-08-26 23:33:08 +0200 | artem | (~artem@73.145.241.15) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2023-08-26 23:33:43 +0200 | Unicorn_Princess | (~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) |
| 2023-08-26 23:35:29 +0200 | ulysses4ever | (~artem@73.145.241.15) |
| 2023-08-26 23:35:44 +0200 | erisco | (~erisco@d24-141-66-165.home.cgocable.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+cygwin2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2023-08-26 23:36:32 +0200 | mmhat | (~mmh@p200300f1c7042714ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2023-08-26 23:36:37 +0200 | erisco | (~erisco@d24-141-66-165.home.cgocable.net) |
| 2023-08-26 23:37:37 +0200 | mmhat | (~mmh@p200300f1c7042714ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Client Quit) |
| 2023-08-26 23:39:52 +0200 | <wroathe> | lol, ScopedTypeVariables. That was the bit I was forgetting |
| 2023-08-26 23:46:27 +0200 | sm | (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm) |
| 2023-08-26 23:47:08 +0200 | [itchyjunk] | (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 23:47:13 +0200 | <wroathe> | Hmm, is there a way to do this without turning on AllowAmbiguousTypes? https://gist.github.com/JustinChristensen/f100f54b4f08354a66a38aeb8e14cc77 |
| 2023-08-26 23:49:20 +0200 | <ski> | i guess `forall s. KnownSymbol s => Const s String' or somesuch |
| 2023-08-26 23:50:26 +0200 | <geekosaur> | isn't that pretty much the exact circumstance for which AllowAmbiguousTypes is intended? |
| 2023-08-26 23:51:06 +0200 | [itchyjunk] | (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) |
| 2023-08-26 23:51:28 +0200 | <wroathe> | Hmm, if it is I'll use it. It just seemed like a sledgehammer for what I think is a pretty common pattern |
| 2023-08-26 23:51:41 +0200 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-209-157.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 23:51:43 +0200 | emmanuelux | (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) |
| 2023-08-26 23:51:47 +0200 | <wroathe> | The context here is that I'm going to try to write a routine to generate postgresql CREATE TABLE statements from types that derive Generic |
| 2023-08-26 23:52:24 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it really wants something like `forall a ->` which is still pending |
| 2023-08-26 23:53:45 +0200 | <wroathe> | ski: Expected a type, but ‘s’ has kind ‘ghc-prim-0.8.0:GHC.Types.Symbol’ • In the first argument of ‘Const’, namely ‘s’ |
| 2023-08-26 23:54:29 +0200 | <ski> | er, sorry. should be `Const String s', not `Const s String' |
| 2023-08-26 23:54:55 +0200 | <wroathe> | :k Const |
| 2023-08-26 23:54:56 +0200 | <lambdabot> | * -> k -> * |
| 2023-08-26 23:55:01 +0200 | <wroathe> | yup, thanks |
| 2023-08-26 23:55:37 +0200 | <ski> | @kind Data.Tagged.Tagged |
| 2023-08-26 23:55:38 +0200 | <lambdabot> | k -> * -> * |
| 2023-08-26 23:56:37 +0200 | <wroathe> | Tagged might be more appropriate here? |
| 2023-08-26 23:56:41 +0200 | <wroathe> | Given the use case? |
| 2023-08-26 23:57:10 +0200 | ulysses4ever | (~artem@73.145.241.15) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2023-08-26 23:57:12 +0200 | <ski> | well .. i think geekosaur's sentiment applies |
| 2023-08-26 23:57:31 +0200 | <ski> | (.. but you did ask for a way without `AllowAmbiguousTypes') |
| 2023-08-26 23:58:12 +0200 | <wroathe> | Much to read about. Thanks for the tips. |
