IRCBrowse

2023/03/17

2023-03-17 00:00:23 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 00:04:19 +0100bgs(~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-03-17 00:05:28 +0100 <Profpatsch> Ashkan: in case you don’t need Monad and Applicative suffices, you can even just use `Compose f g` and its instance (Applicative f, Applicative g) => Applicative (Compose f g)
2023-03-17 00:05:37 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 00:05:42 +0100 <Profpatsch> It provides a blanket instance for every Applicative nesting
2023-03-17 00:06:11 +0100 <Profpatsch> For Monad you need transformers unfortunately, cause you can’t just stack them in any order
2023-03-17 00:06:59 +0100 <Profpatsch> (the blanket Applicative instance for Compose was something that blew my mind a few months ago)
2023-03-17 00:07:00 +0100andrew56(~andrew@2a01:4b00:d108:2500:36c8:5cfb:343b:f1f3)
2023-03-17 00:07:23 +0100 <Ashkan> Profpatsch good to know. In my case, I needed all the way down to `MonadIO`
2023-03-17 00:07:28 +0100andrew56(~andrew@2a01:4b00:d108:2500:36c8:5cfb:343b:f1f3) (Client Quit)
2023-03-17 00:07:53 +0100 <Profpatsch> It even has an instance (Applicative f, Selective g) => Selective (Compose f g) if you want to get fancy
2023-03-17 00:08:08 +0100 <Profpatsch> But Selective is … out there
2023-03-17 00:08:25 +0100 <Profpatsch> I haven’t yet found a good use for it
2023-03-17 00:08:48 +0100 <Ashkan> The actually running of the room is a bit ugly though `liftIO . forkIO $ runReaderT (R.runRoomT (Cn.mkGame 0 1)) room`. I'm thinking maybe somehow get rid of the two `run-`s `runReaderT` and `R.runRoomT`
2023-03-17 00:09:33 +0100 <Profpatsch> Ashkan: just write a wrapper function I guess
2023-03-17 00:09:43 +0100 <Profpatsch> And don’t expose the deconstructor
2023-03-17 00:09:50 +0100 <Ashkan> maybe I don't need a `newtype` and a simple alias (`type Room ... = ...`) would do ?
2023-03-17 00:10:06 +0100man_max(~man_max@94-43-231-47.dsl.utg.ge) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-03-17 00:10:07 +0100 <Profpatsch> Ashkan: I’d always go for newtype unless you have a really good reason
2023-03-17 00:10:20 +0100 <Ashkan> Yeah, I'm keeping it. You are right.
2023-03-17 00:10:20 +0100 <Profpatsch> lens-newtype-level good reason
2023-03-17 00:10:29 +0100 <Profpatsch> err lens-type-alias-level good
2023-03-17 00:10:44 +0100 <Profpatsch> type aliases have never given my anything but pain in Haskell
2023-03-17 00:11:08 +0100 <Profpatsch> And with deriving via I feel like there’s really no “too much boilerplate” excuse anymore
2023-03-17 00:11:29 +0100 <Ashkan> I can do a `runRoom :: RoomT -> Room -> IO a`. That what you meant by wrapper function ?
2023-03-17 00:11:37 +0100 <Profpatsch> Ashkan: e.g. https://cohost.org/Profpatsch/post/802219-deriving-via-is-aweso
2023-03-17 00:13:17 +0100 <Profpatsch> Ashkan: I’d say just write them as you need them, you’ll see which kinds of wrapper functions make sense to reduce boilerplate
2023-03-17 00:13:59 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e715c492f5536687732e5bb6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-03-17 00:14:03 +0100 <Ashkan> +1
2023-03-17 00:14:44 +0100 <EvanR> even if the line of code is only used once, you can give it a name to signal the purpose and move it to its own line
2023-03-17 00:15:44 +0100 <EvanR> and make the surrounding code easier to read, possibly
2023-03-17 00:16:05 +0100 <EvanR> with transformers it seems like you need an entire army of such functions
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2023-03-17 00:29:32 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2023-03-17 04:22:56 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-03-17 04:23:04 +0100segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@108.211.201.53)
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2023-03-17 04:51:07 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
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2023-03-17 05:08:19 +0100mbuf(~Shakthi@49.207.178.186)
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2023-03-17 05:12:25 +0100Nosrep(~Nosrep@user/nosrep)
2023-03-17 05:12:44 +0100 <Nosrep> is there a way to get those -hsomething graphs in like
2023-03-17 05:13:04 +0100 <Nosrep> a more detailed form (shows more than like 10 entries and with exact numbers)
2023-03-17 05:13:20 +0100 <Nosrep> the .prof files dont really show the usage over time
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2023-03-17 05:40:00 +0100no-n(sid524992@smol/hors) ()
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2023-03-17 08:02:07 +0100Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable) (Excess Flood)
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2023-03-17 09:51:34 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c9571fe6002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-03-17 09:57:05 +0100vpan(~0@212.117.1.172)
2023-03-17 10:07:35 +0100gensyst(~gensyst@user/gensyst)
2023-03-17 10:10:13 +0100gnalzo(~gnalzo@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
2023-03-17 10:10:38 +0100 <gensyst> I'm getting into the blaze HTML library.
2023-03-17 10:11:42 +0100 <gensyst> Is it completely on me to hook up folder structures (how which HTML gets written to which HTML files, etc.), auto-watching for changes, etc.?
2023-03-17 10:12:01 +0100 <gensyst> Or has someone developed some convenience libraries or conventions in this area?
2023-03-17 10:13:42 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 10:14:08 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:16:31 +0100 <Logio> for that you might want to take a look at either Hakyll or Shake
2023-03-17 10:17:13 +0100 <Logio> assuming you're just building static pages
2023-03-17 10:17:52 +0100 <gensyst> Logio, can you elaborate a bit? i'd also want clay (css) integration and eventually i'll also do JS for parts of the sites
2023-03-17 10:17:57 +0100 <gensyst> is hakyll suitable for that?
2023-03-17 10:18:03 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:18:11 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:18:14 +0100 <gensyst> And Shake, what would that solve? I thought it was a "build system" for projects
2023-03-17 10:18:23 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eohfrm53iss5au.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2023-03-17 10:20:42 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115)
2023-03-17 10:22:33 +0100azure_vermilion(~Thunderbi@164.39.138.83)
2023-03-17 10:23:46 +0100 <azure_vermilion> is there a shorter way of writing this function?: firstJustElse xs else1 = head (catMaybes xs ++ [else1])
2023-03-17 10:24:23 +0100 <[exa]> gensyst: yeah hakyll has tools for that (there may also be other staticsite generators around, a bit googling should reveal many)
2023-03-17 10:24:42 +0100 <[exa]> azure_vermilion: sounds like a case for First
2023-03-17 10:26:40 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: fromMaybe (listToMaybe xs) else
2023-03-17 10:27:23 +0100 <azure_vermilion> thanks
2023-03-17 10:27:55 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: ah wait...
2023-03-17 10:28:25 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: fromMaybe (asum xs) else
2023-03-17 10:28:56 +0100 <kuribas> but do you want to return a Just?
2023-03-17 10:29:18 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:29:19 +0100 <kuribas> :t \xs else1 -> head (catMaybes xs ++ [else1])
2023-03-17 10:29:21 +0100 <lambdabot> [Maybe a] -> a -> a
2023-03-17 10:29:27 +0100 <azure_vermilion> I want to return the first just if there is one, and if not then return else1
2023-03-17 10:29:53 +0100 <kuribas> :t \xs else1 -> fromMaybe (asum xs) else1
2023-03-17 10:29:54 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> Maybe (f a) -> f a
2023-03-17 10:29:59 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden)
2023-03-17 10:30:03 +0100 <[exa]> kuribas: you may have the args flipped
2023-03-17 10:30:05 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:30:16 +0100 <kuribas> :t \xs else1 -> fromMaybe else1 (asum xs)
2023-03-17 10:30:17 +0100 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t (Maybe a) -> a -> a
2023-03-17 10:30:28 +0100 <kuribas> [exa]: thanks
2023-03-17 10:30:59 +0100 <[exa]> good idea with asum though
2023-03-17 10:31:15 +0100 <kuribas> yeah, that's what it's for right?
2023-03-17 10:31:21 +0100 <azure_vermilion> that looks like some deep magic
2023-03-17 10:31:28 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-03-17 10:31:54 +0100lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-03-17 10:32:19 +0100 <[exa]> azure_vermilion: Alternative instance for Maybe is kinda straightforward and does the trick
2023-03-17 10:32:33 +0100 <kuribas> :t asum @Maybe
2023-03-17 10:32:34 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2023-03-17 10:32:34 +0100 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: asum@Maybe
2023-03-17 10:32:34 +0100 <lambdabot> Did you mean to enable TypeApplications?
2023-03-17 10:33:33 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 10:34:01 +0100 <kuribas> :t asum
2023-03-17 10:34:03 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
2023-03-17 10:35:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2023-03-17 10:35:13 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: asum [a, b, c, d] == a <|> b <|> c <|> d
2023-03-17 10:35:27 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: and Just x <|> _ == Just x
2023-03-17 10:35:43 +0100 <kuribas> so it just returns the first Just value.
2023-03-17 10:36:09 +0100 <azure_vermilion> I see, thank for making it simple
2023-03-17 10:39:04 +0100 <kuribas> azure_vermilion: the difference between Monoid (<>) and Alternative (<|>) is that the Monoid agregates also the internal value.
2023-03-17 10:39:16 +0100kenaryn(~aurele@89-88-44-27.abo.bbox.fr)
2023-03-17 10:39:16 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-03-17 10:39:17 +0100 <kuribas> > Just "a" <> Just "b"
2023-03-17 10:39:18 +0100 <lambdabot> Just "ab"
2023-03-17 10:39:24 +0100 <kuribas> > Just "a" <|> Just "b"
2023-03-17 10:39:26 +0100 <lambdabot> Just "a"
2023-03-17 10:39:49 +0100 <kuribas> I think the distinction between Alternative and Monoid is rather arbitrary.
2023-03-17 10:40:14 +0100 <kuribas> And there is Alt.
2023-03-17 10:40:19 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115)
2023-03-17 10:40:34 +0100 <kuribas> > Alt (Just "a") <> Alt (Just "b")
2023-03-17 10:40:36 +0100 <lambdabot> Alt {getAlt = Just "a"}
2023-03-17 10:40:54 +0100 <kuribas> Turns an alternative into a Monoid :)
2023-03-17 10:42:35 +0100 <kuribas> I've had this idea that any loop in an imperative language can be rewritten using Monoids.
2023-03-17 10:42:39 +0100 <kuribas> So foldMap basically.
2023-03-17 10:43:30 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2023-03-17 10:43:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> kuribas: a monoid is associative
2023-03-17 10:43:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> or do you mean using Endo?
2023-03-17 10:44:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> because while true that doesn't contain much interesting information
2023-03-17 10:44:36 +0100 <kuribas> no, for example filtering elements can be done with the list monoid.
2023-03-17 10:44:49 +0100 <tomsmeding> not all loops are as simple as filtering :p
2023-03-17 10:44:59 +0100 <Logio> gensyst: Hakyll is also essentially a build system, just a bit specialized. Shake is more general, and can do some things that Hakyll can't
2023-03-17 10:45:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> what if a loop actually uses the iteration index, or loop state
2023-03-17 10:45:53 +0100 <kuribas> tomsmeding: using Ap?
2023-03-17 10:46:09 +0100 <gensyst> Logio, do these things have "auto-refresh" features?
2023-03-17 10:46:12 +0100 <gensyst> when files are saved
2023-03-17 10:47:52 +0100 <tomsmeding> kuribas: sorry, I'm not quite sure how that would work -- never used Ap
2023-03-17 10:48:07 +0100 <kuribas> :t foldr (flip fromMaybe) -- azure_vermilion works also :)
2023-03-17 10:48:08 +0100 <lambdabot> Foldable t => b -> t (Maybe b) -> b
2023-03-17 10:48:11 +0100 <tomsmeding> what is the interesting instance of Ap, is that Monoid?
2023-03-17 10:48:48 +0100 <kuribas> tomsmeding: yeah, it turns an Applicative into a Monoid.
2023-03-17 10:49:02 +0100 <kuribas> :t Ap
2023-03-17 10:49:03 +0100 <lambdabot> forall k (f :: k -> *) (a :: k). f a -> Ap f a
2023-03-17 10:50:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> it does not turn an applicative into a monoid, right?
2023-03-17 10:50:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> (Applicative f, Monoid a) => Monoid (Ap f a)
2023-03-17 10:51:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> it lifts the monoid instance on 'a' to a monoid instance on 'f a'
2023-03-17 10:51:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> by (<>) = liftA2 (<>)
2023-03-17 10:51:32 +0100 <tomsmeding> (modulo newtype constructors)
2023-03-17 10:52:24 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Disconnected: Replaced by new connection)
2023-03-17 10:52:29 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2023-03-17 10:52:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> and I'm not sure how that helps here
2023-03-17 10:53:02 +0100 <azure_vermilion> gonna end up with a 1 line program at list rate
2023-03-17 10:53:08 +0100 <azure_vermilion> at this rate
2023-03-17 10:54:42 +0100 <kuribas> tomsmeding: right
2023-03-17 10:55:53 +0100 <kuribas> tomsmeding: you can always write a foldMap over a range [x..y].
2023-03-17 10:56:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> kuribas: what if the loop is stateful
2023-03-17 10:57:04 +0100vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw)
2023-03-17 10:57:05 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.111.87)
2023-03-17 10:57:14 +0100 <kuribas> tomsmeding: use Ap
2023-03-17 10:57:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh I see, where f ~ State s
2023-03-17 10:57:30 +0100 <kuribas> yeah
2023-03-17 10:57:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> right
2023-03-17 10:57:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> which is basically Endo++
2023-03-17 10:57:55 +0100 <tomsmeding> yeah, that carries little information in my eyes :p
2023-03-17 10:57:58 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 10:58:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> that says "function composition is associative"
2023-03-17 10:58:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, yes
2023-03-17 10:58:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> but I feel like it's not a helpful program transformation
2023-03-17 10:58:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> what is much more helpful is to write a loop in terms of foldMap over a non-State monoid, but that only works if the loop iterations are independent
2023-03-17 10:59:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> which are precisely the loops where it's useful to simplify -- you're reifying the simple-ness in using less powerful combinators
2023-03-17 10:59:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> with a stateful loop you're just rewriting in terms of equally powerful combinators and not, in my eyes, gaining much
2023-03-17 11:01:13 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-03-17 11:01:27 +0100dsrt^(~dsrt@c-24-30-76-89.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
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2023-03-17 11:05:15 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 11:06:25 +0100mastarija(~mastarija@188.252.199.82)
2023-03-17 11:07:19 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@125x103x176x34.ap125.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 11:09:16 +0100Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2023-03-17 11:11:18 +0100 <Logio> gensyst: not sure if there's anything built-in in either one, but I would look around if someone has implemented it
2023-03-17 11:11:47 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Quit: restart)
2023-03-17 11:12:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2023-03-17 11:12:50 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eohfrm53iss5au.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-03-17 11:13:04 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eohfrm53iss5au.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2023-03-17 11:17:48 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:710f:b6bb:b29d:a808)
2023-03-17 11:20:23 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2023-03-17 11:23:35 +0100 <gensyst> ok, thanks
2023-03-17 11:23:38 +0100gensyst(~gensyst@user/gensyst) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-03-17 11:26:04 +0100econo(uid147250@user/econo) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-03-17 11:27:29 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 11:30:06 +0100man_max(~man_max@94-43-231-47.dsl.utg.ge) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-03-17 11:30:11 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@145.94.168.115)
2023-03-17 11:34:44 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-03-17 11:34:51 +0100 <mastarija> Am I misunderstanding something about overlapping and overlappable? GHC tells me he can't pick between the two instances, one of which is overlapping and another is overlappable.
2023-03-17 11:37:03 +0100 <lyxia> the pragma alone is not enough, the overlapping instance needs to be included in the other
2023-03-17 11:39:19 +0100gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dynamic-046-114-183-096.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2023-03-17 11:47:41 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-03-17 11:55:32 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eohfrm53iss5au.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-03-17 11:55:45 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51eohfrm53iss5au.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2023-03-17 11:56:27 +0100 <mastarija> lyxia: not sure what that means
2023-03-17 11:56:39 +0100 <mastarija> I have them in separate modules
2023-03-17 11:59:34 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 12:00:03 +0100 <TheMatten[m]> mastarija: I think he means that they actually have to directly overlap
2023-03-17 12:04:20 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:05:15 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@ai098135.d.east.v6connect.net)
2023-03-17 12:05:40 +0100 <lyxia> The rules for picking an instance are described in the manual https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/instances.html#overlapping-instances
2023-03-17 12:06:56 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e715c4802826e60a70e4269f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:09:49 +0100accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-03-17 12:13:30 +0100 <mastarija> Thx.
2023-03-17 12:14:30 +0100Techcable(~Techcable@user/Techcable)
2023-03-17 12:14:53 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:eee3:5195:b098:df99) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:25:31 +0100bhall(brunohall@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/bhall) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:25:46 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 12:28:35 +0100 <mon_aaraj> hey, it seems haskell is able to detect infinite loops, i didn't know we finally solved the halting problem! anyways, it seems it doesn't work with GHC's `-O0` (only 1 or above) or `ghci`, any idea why?
2023-03-17 12:29:36 +0100 <lyxia> it detects some infinite loops. the halting problem is to find them all.
2023-03-17 12:30:31 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:30:32 +0100 <hpc> mon_aaraj: it has to do with how laziness and thunks work
2023-03-17 12:30:36 +0100 <mon_aaraj> yeah, but how come ghci or -O0 don't have that in?
2023-03-17 12:31:21 +0100 <mon_aaraj> huh, laziness and thunks work differently on other optimization options?
2023-03-17 12:31:37 +0100 <hpc> mon_aaraj: if you know javascript, you might imagine a thunk as being var thunk = function() { var value = compute_value(); thunk = function() {return value}; return value}
2023-03-17 12:32:10 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 12:32:12 +0100 <hpc> but also when you start evaluating a thunk, it changes the value to a "black hole" function that prints <<loop>>
2023-03-17 12:32:26 +0100 <hpc> or in the threaded runtime, it changes it to a thunk that makes the thread wait
2023-03-17 12:32:44 +0100 <mon_aaraj> ah, makes sense... so how come ghci or -O0 don't allow that
2023-03-17 12:32:47 +0100 <hpc> (imagine two threads computing the same value, one does the calculation and the other waits for the first thread to finish so they can both carry on efficiently)
2023-03-17 12:33:22 +0100 <hpc> so, depending on optimization levels, what counts as the same thunk might be different
2023-03-17 12:33:56 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e715c48014c2b240f6add783.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-03-17 12:33:56 +0100 <hpc> you might have a whole bunch of thunks in memory that happen to all evaluate to "5", but changing one to the black hole doesn't change any of the others
2023-03-17 12:34:13 +0100 <hpc> and on different optimization levels maybe the code gets tweaked so only one shared thunk is created
2023-03-17 12:34:56 +0100 <mon_aaraj> huh, weird
2023-03-17 12:35:10 +0100 <mon_aaraj> also, i was told `ghci` doesn't support as many language features as the normal compiler, and that sounded weird to me.... what features doesn't ghci support?
2023-03-17 12:35:55 +0100 <hpc> that i couldn't say
2023-03-17 12:36:08 +0100 <hpc> someone else might know
2023-03-17 12:38:19 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 12:44:34 +0100 <dminuoso> Unboxed tuples
2023-03-17 12:45:08 +0100 <dminuoso> Binding unboxed things to names doesnt work very reliable in GHCi either.
2023-03-17 12:45:43 +0100gnalzo(~gnalzo@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2023-03-17 12:47:09 +0100akegalj(~akegalj@89-164-119-54.dsl.iskon.hr)
2023-03-17 12:47:17 +0100 <dminuoso> mon_aaraj: Most of the things that dont work have to do with GHCi using a different backend. Instead of native compilation, it generates byte-code and interprets that bytecode.
2023-03-17 12:49:59 +0100Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-03-17 12:50:36 +0100 <mon_aaraj> alright, thank you
2023-03-17 12:50:59 +0100 <dminuoso> well in reality ghci does a bit of both (object code and bytecode)
2023-03-17 12:51:02 +0100 <dminuoso> and that complicates things.
2023-03-17 12:51:17 +0100bhall(brunohall@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/bhall)
2023-03-17 12:51:44 +0100 <dminuoso> Due to how object code works with the STG machine when the code barrier is crossed this can introduce all kinds of hurdles
2023-03-17 12:51:58 +0100 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc-wiki-mirror/-/blob/master/Unboxed-Tuples-and-Sums-in-GHCi-bytec…
2023-03-17 12:52:01 +0100 <mon_aaraj> do all REPLs have to be like this? or can this hypothetically be fixed?
2023-03-17 12:52:24 +0100 <dminuoso> mon_aaraj: many programming languages go through bytecode irrespective of whether its a repl or regular execution
2023-03-17 12:52:32 +0100 <dminuoso> say java or python
2023-03-17 12:52:46 +0100 <dminuoso> Haskell is special in that we produce native code *but* also produce a repl.
2023-03-17 12:53:07 +0100 <dminuoso> In some sense you can think of our repl as being a built-in debugger of sorts, perhaps
2023-03-17 12:53:08 +0100 <mon_aaraj> yeah, i suppose
2023-03-17 12:53:32 +0100 <mon_aaraj> i heard that ghci doesn't do optimizations too because it's a bytecode
2023-03-17 12:53:37 +0100 <dminuoso> Indeed.
2023-03-17 12:54:18 +0100 <dminuoso> mon_aaraj: check out the link above, that goes a bit into some of the crucial problems having both object code and bytecode around
2023-03-17 12:54:31 +0100 <dminuoso> In principle the problems are solvable *if* everything could be mapped to bytecode.
2023-03-17 12:54:44 +0100 <mon_aaraj> alright, thank you very much!
2023-03-17 12:54:45 +0100 <dminuoso> For starters you would have to translate all primops to bytecode
2023-03-17 12:55:03 +0100 <dminuoso> that task by itself is perfectly doable, but it requires someone to do it, and then connect all the things
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2023-03-17 13:41:20 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: I mean, ocaml produces native code and has a repl...and I know C and C++ repls exist :p
2023-03-17 13:41:50 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: I didnt say unique.
2023-03-17 13:42:17 +0100 <merijn> mon_aaraj: there are no fundamental theoretical reasons why ghci can't implement "everything", only pragmatic reasons like "nobody cares enough to put in the effort"
2023-03-17 13:42:53 +0100 <merijn> mon_aaraj: Especially since (generall) in Haskell we don't use the repl for "real" development, notebook style
2023-03-17 13:42:55 +0100 <maerwald[m]> merijn: you mean nobody paid you?
2023-03-17 13:43:45 +0100 <merijn> nobody paid anyone :p
2023-03-17 13:45:12 +0100 <geekosaur> there are open tickets for things like loading/saving ghci workspaces, that have languished for years because nobody cares enough to write code to serialize/deserialize BCO
2023-03-17 13:45:32 +0100 <merijn> How's multi-component ghci coming along?
2023-03-17 13:46:23 +0100 <geekosaur> that one's slowly happening because stack and cabal are both pushing it
2023-03-17 13:46:51 +0100 <merijn> geekosaur: Well, I think it's mostly the fact that HLS needs it leading to the foundation funding it
2023-03-17 13:47:18 +0100 <geekosaur> that's ghc supporting it, not ghci
2023-03-17 13:47:41 +0100 <merijn> hmm? there's no multi-component problem in ghc?
2023-03-17 13:47:53 +0100 <geekosaur> yes there is
2023-03-17 13:48:09 +0100 <geekosaur> or was, it's largely gone now for the reason you said
2023-03-17 13:48:38 +0100 <merijn> geekosaur: In what way was that a problem in ghc? Like you only compiled them separately anyway?
2023-03-17 13:48:54 +0100 <geekosaur> hls doesn't use ghci, it uses ghc-api. ghci could remain blissfully unaware but e.g. cabal repl needs it
2023-03-17 13:49:28 +0100 <geekosaur> and for the api to get it, it needs to be baked in
2023-03-17 13:51:53 +0100mechap(~mechap@user/mechap)
2023-03-17 13:52:19 +0100 <merijn> hmm, maybe I misunderstand what the problem actually is then
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2023-03-17 14:07:53 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 14:08:34 +0100{-d0t-}(~q_q@user/-d0t-/x-7915216)
2023-03-17 14:09:03 +0100 <{-d0t-}> Hello! Is there a manual on how to use Data.Time.Format.ISO8601 from time package? I can't find any examples anywhere.
2023-03-17 14:10:19 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: Hi. Check out https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.12.2/docs/Data-Time-Format.html
2023-03-17 14:10:49 +0100 <{-d0t-}> dminuoso: sure, but I need iso8601DateFormat. Specifically, I use that function in my code and now it is deprecated.
2023-03-17 14:11:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm the documentation is certainly lacking
2023-03-17 14:11:26 +0100 <{-d0t-}> indeed :D
2023-03-17 14:11:31 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: You can use iso8601Show as a starting point
2023-03-17 14:11:38 +0100 <dminuoso> Alternatively
2023-03-17 14:11:59 +0100 <dminuoso> You use `formatShow` or `formatShowM` and then one of the formats under: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.12.2/docs/Data-Time-Format-ISO8601.html#g:3
2023-03-17 14:12:01 +0100 <{-d0t-}> What I want is an equivalent to formatTime defaultTimeLocale (iso8601Format (Just "%H::"))
2023-03-17 14:12:34 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 14:12:37 +0100 <dminuoso> What does that do?
2023-03-17 14:12:58 +0100 <{-d0t-}> formats the time with the provided template.
2023-03-17 14:13:02 +0100 <dminuoso> sure
2023-03-17 14:13:07 +0100 <{-d0t-}> iso8601Format adds its argument to the date template
2023-03-17 14:13:10 +0100 <dminuoso> I meant, what particular format behavior does that give?
2023-03-17 14:13:29 +0100 <dminuoso> I dont know what "%H:: " expresses in the context of ISO8601
2023-03-17 14:13:42 +0100 <{-d0t-}> Oh.. it's my irc client borked the message :(
2023-03-17 14:13:54 +0100 <{-d0t-}> See the last line in iso8601DateFormat example.
2023-03-17 14:14:03 +0100 <{-d0t-}> here, bottom of the page https://hackage.haskell.org/package/time-1.12.2/docs/Data-Time-Format.html
2023-03-17 14:14:32 +0100 <dminuoso> I dont quite follow.
2023-03-17 14:15:13 +0100 <{-d0t-}> Ugh.. I just want to print the date according to "YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS" template
2023-03-17 14:15:39 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-03-17 14:16:01 +0100 <dminuoso> IO was a bit confused by the double colon and the space after it
2023-03-17 14:16:36 +0100 <{-d0t-}> My irc client seems to replace percent-letter combos with something.
2023-03-17 14:16:56 +0100 <{-d0t-}> So plz disregard that one :D
2023-03-17 14:16:59 +0100 <geekosaur> yes, hexchat and a few others use that to indicate formatting and/or color codes
2023-03-17 14:17:18 +0100 <geekosaur> for hexchat you can disable it
2023-03-17 14:17:19 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: Okay, I hope you can see my confusion here. :-)
2023-03-17 14:17:32 +0100 <{-d0t-}> geekosaur: i use konversation
2023-03-17 14:17:47 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: so the haddock page clearly expects you to buy and read ISO 8601:2004(E) sec. 4.1.2.4(c)
2023-03-17 14:17:54 +0100 <dminuoso> And then find the section you want
2023-03-17 14:18:04 +0100 <dminuoso> And then search for the section reference on the haddock page.
2023-03-17 14:18:10 +0100 <geekosaur> try doubling the percent sign
2023-03-17 14:18:12 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2023-03-17 14:18:20 +0100 <{-d0t-}> dminuoso: best documentation ever
2023-03-17 14:18:46 +0100 <{-d0t-}> formatTime defaultTimeLocale (iso8601Format (Just "%H:%M:%S"))
2023-03-17 14:18:51 +0100 <{-d0t-}> this is the code I have
2023-03-17 14:18:57 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: The authors clearly wanted to show they adhere to an ISO standard. :-P
2023-03-17 14:19:29 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: At any rate
2023-03-17 14:19:32 +0100 <dminuoso> ISO 8601:2004(E) filetype:pdf
2023-03-17 14:19:39 +0100 <dminuoso> If you hit that into google, you should get a hit on the standard
2023-03-17 14:19:43 +0100 <geekosaur> that worked, btw
2023-03-17 14:20:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Ahh thats just a preview and is missing section 4...
2023-03-17 14:20:06 +0100dminuososighs
2023-03-17 14:20:22 +0100 <dminuoso> I think a bug report is in order here.
2023-03-17 14:20:37 +0100 <dminuoso> Whats slightly more interesting
2023-03-17 14:20:43 +0100 <dminuoso> Is that 8601:2004 is withdrawn
2023-03-17 14:20:57 +0100 <dminuoso> The current revision is 8601-1:2019
2023-03-17 14:20:59 +0100 <{-d0t-}> It's not withdrawn. There is a new version, but it's backwards compatible.
2023-03-17 14:21:03 +0100 <dminuoso> It is withdrawn.
2023-03-17 14:21:08 +0100 <dminuoso> https://www.iso.org/standard/40874.html
2023-03-17 14:23:37 +0100 <dminuoso> {-d0t-}: The more I stare at it, this is really appalling.
2023-03-17 14:24:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Does this library fall under the purview of the CLC??
2023-03-17 14:24:14 +0100 <{-d0t-}> https://github.com/haskell/time/issues/238
2023-03-17 14:25:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Im still disgusted that such standards need to be bought.
2023-03-17 14:25:09 +0100 <dminuoso> Such things dont promote standard adoption..
2023-03-17 14:28:31 +0100 <[exa]> long live the RFCs
2023-03-17 14:28:46 +0100 <geekosaur> the "old way" to promote standards was to get governments to adopt them
2023-03-17 14:30:19 +0100 <{-d0t-}> dminuoso: my favourite here is that the C and other language standards are paid for too, so most programmers have only read the drafts
2023-03-17 14:30:31 +0100 <{-d0t-}> ok, most programmers haven't even read those, but you get the point
2023-03-17 14:30:40 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-03-17 14:31:04 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2023-03-17 14:32:06 +0100 <dminuoso> https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/ISO_DIS%208601-1.pdf
2023-03-17 14:32:08 +0100 <dminuoso> https://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/ISO_DIS%208601-1.pdf
2023-03-17 14:32:10 +0100 <dminuoso> Just wow.
2023-03-17 14:32:35 +0100 <dminuoso> I think 8601 does not have freely available drafts
2023-03-17 14:32:37 +0100 <dminuoso> for C++ at least you get these
2023-03-17 14:32:45 +0100 <dminuoso> which are good enough for language implementors
2023-03-17 14:32:59 +0100 <dminuoso> (and these tend to ahve at least sufficient donations to buy a standard copy with)
2023-03-17 14:34:30 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-03-17 14:35:43 +0100 <{-d0t-}> anyway, gotta run
2023-03-17 14:35:47 +0100 <{-d0t-}> thank you for your time
2023-03-17 14:36:06 +0100{-d0t-}(~q_q@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Konversation terminated!)
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2023-03-17 15:24:35 +0100 <lyxia> why is Ur data instead of newtype
2023-03-17 15:24:40 +0100 <lyxia> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-base-0.3.0/docs/Data-Unrestricted-Linear.html#t:Ur
2023-03-17 15:25:55 +0100 <opqdonut> the arrow of the newtype constructor would be linear I guess?
2023-03-17 15:26:35 +0100 <opqdonut> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/linear_types.html#data-types
2023-03-17 15:27:23 +0100 <dminuoso> The data type is 6 years old, linear types are not that old
2023-03-17 15:29:16 +0100 <lyxia> dminuoso: Source? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
2023-03-17 15:29:55 +0100 <dminuoso> lyxia: https://github.com/tweag/linear-base/commit/38c6c2db
2023-03-17 15:30:12 +0100 <dminuoso> It was later renamed to Ur, originally it was called Unrestricted
2023-03-17 15:30:35 +0100 <lyxia> that definitely seems to be in the context of linear types though
2023-03-17 15:30:47 +0100 <dminuoso> I agree
2023-03-17 15:31:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Ohh, there's LinearTypes enabled everywhere, maybe the extension is older than I thought?
2023-03-17 15:31:23 +0100 <dminuoso> I guess opqdonut is right
2023-03-17 15:37:55 +0100kupi(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-03-17 15:38:11 +0100 <opqdonut> I just bumped into this constructors-are-always-linear thing because it broke some of my TH stuff
2023-03-17 15:38:35 +0100 <opqdonut> I'm kinda peeved that I need to cope with MulArrowT everywhere even though I haven't enabled LinearTypes
2023-03-17 15:39:20 +0100 <opqdonut> but that's what I get for playing with TH I guess, otherwise the fact that constructors are linear is not observable without -XLinearTypes (I guess?)
2023-03-17 15:40:32 +0100 <EvanR> ds9 sisko it's not linear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIihUx0SSrs
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2023-03-17 16:30:25 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 16:31:57 +0100 <tokie> (beginner) i was reading a chapter on Monoids and a section discussing the First and Last monoids, and so I wrote a little funciton that combines foldr and First to return the first out of a foldable thing of Maybes. It was pretty long winded, though, because I had to do something like 'findFirst xs = getFirst $ foldr (mappend . First) mempty xs'
2023-03-17 16:32:08 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.175.87)
2023-03-17 16:32:11 +0100 <tokie> is there a more cononical way to do this?
2023-03-17 16:32:24 +0100 <tokie> *canonical
2023-03-17 16:35:22 +0100 <EvanR> there's mconcat
2023-03-17 16:35:24 +0100 <EvanR> :t mconcat
2023-03-17 16:35:25 +0100 <lambdabot> Monoid a => [a] -> a
2023-03-17 16:35:58 +0100 <EvanR> > mconcat [First Nothing, First Nothing, First (Just 'a'), First (Just 'b')]
2023-03-17 16:36:00 +0100 <lambdabot> First {getFirst = Just 'a'}
2023-03-17 16:36:52 +0100Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2023-03-17 16:37:31 +0100 <EvanR> > mconcat [Sum 1, Sum 2, Sum 3, Sum 4]
2023-03-17 16:37:31 +0100slack1256(~slack1256@186.11.43.166) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-03-17 16:37:33 +0100 <lambdabot> Sum {getSum = 10}
2023-03-17 16:38:11 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-03-17 16:38:26 +0100 <EvanR> @src mconcat
2023-03-17 16:38:26 +0100 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
2023-03-17 16:38:41 +0100 <EvanR> the default implementation is likely very similar to your version of findFirst
2023-03-17 16:39:01 +0100 <merijn> There's also, foldMap
2023-03-17 16:39:03 +0100 <merijn> :t foldMap
2023-03-17 16:39:05 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
2023-03-17 16:39:25 +0100 <merijn> > foldMap First [Nothing, Nothing, Just 'a', Just 'b']
2023-03-17 16:39:27 +0100 <lambdabot> First {getFirst = Just 'a'}
2023-03-17 16:41:01 +0100gnalzo(~gnalzo@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8)
2023-03-17 16:41:05 +0100 <tokie> yeah, foldMap was what i was thinking of - i think mconcat would require the list by mapped to First first?
2023-03-17 16:41:55 +0100 <tokie> getFirst $ mconcat $ map First [Nothing, Just 12, Nothing]
2023-03-17 16:42:03 +0100 <EvanR> yeah that's just foldMap
2023-03-17 16:42:24 +0100 <EvanR> :t fold
2023-03-17 16:42:25 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
2023-03-17 16:42:32 +0100 <ncf> :t ala First foldMap
2023-03-17 16:42:34 +0100 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t (Maybe b) -> Maybe b
2023-03-17 16:44:03 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:fa35:3b99:1ed2:7301) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2023-03-17 16:45:05 +0100 <tokie> thanks! that helps
2023-03-17 16:47:29 +0100 <EvanR> > sort (map Down [4,3,7,6,5])
2023-03-17 16:47:30 +0100 <lambdabot> [Down 7,Down 6,Down 5,Down 4,Down 3]
2023-03-17 16:47:45 +0100 <merijn> > sortOn Down [4,3,7,6,5]
2023-03-17 16:47:46 +0100 <lambdabot> [7,6,5,4,3]
2023-03-17 16:48:08 +0100 <EvanR> no getDown=, really
2023-03-17 16:48:29 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2023-03-17 16:48:31 +0100 <monochrom> Or would it be called runDown? :)
2023-03-17 16:48:45 +0100 <EvanR> getDown exists it seems but it's not Shown
2023-03-17 16:48:46 +0100 <[exa]> this is missed meme opportunity
2023-03-17 16:50:36 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 16:51:38 +0100 <merijn> EvanR: I think getDown was added later and the show instance was kept the same for backwards compat or something
2023-03-17 16:53:15 +0100 <EvanR> phoenixDown, blackHawkDown, takeDown, tearDown, knockDown, trickleDown
2023-03-17 16:53:27 +0100 <EvanR> should all work
2023-03-17 16:54:27 +0100 <EvanR> meltDown, touchDown but no lockdowns please
2023-03-17 16:54:49 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2023-03-17 17:04:41 +0100janus(janus@anubis.0x90.dk)
2023-03-17 17:05:15 +0100 <janus> is GHC tested on Linux >=6.1? my colleagues are experiencing segfaults with 9.2.6 on that kernel version
2023-03-17 17:05:38 +0100 <janus> GHC 9.2.7, i mean
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2023-03-17 17:44:33 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Nice
2023-03-17 17:46:19 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2023-03-17 17:47:59 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2023-03-17 17:49:03 +0100gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dynamic-046-114-183-096.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-03-17 17:49:52 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2023-03-17 17:52:59 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-03-17 17:54:27 +0100 <janus> more details on this segfault: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=282429
2023-03-17 17:56:08 +0100 <merijn> janus: What's ulimit -a say?
2023-03-17 17:56:33 +0100 <merijn> janus: Possibly 6.1 has a different limit on virtual memory reservations?
2023-03-17 17:57:10 +0100 <merijn> null pointer sounds like a failing allocation
2023-03-17 17:57:12 +0100 <int-e> So this seems to be specifically the ghci linker?
2023-03-17 17:57:42 +0100kupi(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-03-17 17:58:42 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 18:01:21 +0100 <chreekat> janus: I don't think it's tested on 6.x yet. Based on the linked thread, it would be great to open a ticket regardless of how much information you've got at hand
2023-03-17 18:01:31 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2023-03-17 18:02:51 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-03-17 18:03:24 +0100 <davean> janus: I'
2023-03-17 18:03:56 +0100 <davean> ve been using GHC on 6.1.12, I would bet thats an arch issue specificly. Arch has a lot of issues historically with Haskell because of how they package it.
2023-03-17 18:04:18 +0100gtdg(~gtdg@user/gtdg) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-03-17 18:04:24 +0100 <davean> I note that is with mmap though specificly.
2023-03-17 18:04:26 +0100 <merijn> davean: the thread says it's the ghcup version of GHC, though
2023-03-17 18:04:33 +0100 <davean> oh I missed that in my read
2023-03-17 18:04:43 +0100 <merijn> but yeah, null pointer and mmap makes it sound like failing allocation
2023-03-17 18:05:01 +0100 <merijn> Which might happen if (Arch) 6.1 has different default restrictions
2023-03-17 18:05:28 +0100 <davean> it can be a lot of things when its mmap
2023-03-17 18:06:13 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2023-03-17 18:06:35 +0100 <merijn> Sure, that's just my first instinct
2023-03-17 18:07:08 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-03-17 18:07:25 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro)
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2023-03-17 18:10:25 +0100mechap(~mechap@user/mechap)
2023-03-17 18:12:53 +0100 <janus> my colleague has seen it on 4 different distros, so i don't think it's arch specific
2023-03-17 18:13:09 +0100 <janus> i'll boot into 6.1 and check the ulimit...
2023-03-17 18:15:32 +0100 <davean> I don't remember when I switched to 6.1, but this system's update is 9 days and I don't think thats when I switched?
2023-03-17 18:18:49 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2023-03-17 18:26:54 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Exeunt: personae.ai-integration.biz)
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2023-03-17 18:32:22 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a307:2300::7fe) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2023-03-17 18:36:42 +0100 <int-e> Hmm, one of the possible error conditions of `mmap` is exceeding vm.max_map_count mappings... might be worth a try to bump that and see if it fixes the error.
2023-03-17 18:37:20 +0100 <int-e> (and *if* it fixes the error it'll be fun to analyze why the kernel version makes a difference)
2023-03-17 18:39:06 +0100sp00kins(~sp00kins@2603:3021:3971:2100::49ad)
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2023-03-17 20:00:13 +0100 <janus> ok , i have reproduced the problem using a manually built 6.1.20 kernel on debian 11
2023-03-17 20:00:24 +0100 <janus> (had to compile using llvm because there is a problem with debian's gcc-10)
2023-03-17 20:00:56 +0100slack1256(~slack1256@181.42.50.18)
2023-03-17 20:01:01 +0100 <janus> and i checked vm.map_map_count, it is unchanged relative to my debian 11 laptop. it is 65530 on both
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2023-03-17 20:19:31 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2023-03-17 20:25:35 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@146.70.165.203)
2023-03-17 20:26:37 +0100 <janus> merijn (if you have logs): ulimits are similar, but -u (processes) is 63411 on 6.1.20 and 31220 on the vanilla kernel. -l (locked-in-memory) is 2035706 while it is 1005239 on the old. -i (pending signals) is 63411 while it is 31220 on the old
2023-03-17 20:26:59 +0100 <janus> these numbers are from different hardware, not sure whether these values are set dynamically?
2023-03-17 20:27:19 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.41.190)
2023-03-17 20:30:56 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-03-17 20:32:43 +0100 <int-e> janus: I'd still try bumping the vm.max_map_count simply to hopefully rule that out as a possibility. There have been memory management changes to Linux so it's conceivable that, say, anonymous maps are coalesced less frequently now. Not terribly likely but relatively easy to rule out.
2023-03-17 20:36:41 +0100 <int-e> janus: At the low level the error you're seeing is that a mmap call returned ENOMEM so `man mmap` can serve as a checklist to go through. You have memory available, and there's no address provided, so that rules out two of the causes, leaving two more; the other one is RLIMIT_DATA which ulimit should report.
2023-03-17 20:37:14 +0100 <int-e> (The documentation may be incomplete or wrong, of course.)
2023-03-17 20:37:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2023-03-17 20:39:38 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-03-17 20:42:13 +0100lbseale(~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-03-17 20:42:59 +0100 <janus> int-e: i bumped it to 1000000 (one million), doesn't change anything
2023-03-17 20:43:04 +0100qwert(~qwert@95.107.230.70)
2023-03-17 20:43:46 +0100lbseale(~quassel@user/ep1ctetus)
2023-03-17 20:45:42 +0100 <int-e> Okay, there goes that idea.
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2023-03-17 21:29:58 +0100 <EvanR> I'm hearing (as of linux 6.1.20) "one does not simply use mmap"
2023-03-17 21:30:10 +0100 <EvanR> based on this discussion
2023-03-17 21:34:06 +0100 <[exa]> I should have a look at the changelog
2023-03-17 21:34:41 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 21:35:22 +0100 <int-e> 6.1 introduced something called "maple trees" for managing the address space, which is a rather invasive change.
2023-03-17 21:36:24 +0100 <int-e> Which relates to mmap, and it's new code, so *maybe* there's a bug?
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2023-03-17 21:49:16 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-03-17 21:50:27 +0100 <[exa]> int-e: quite conveniently there's been changes to various other page handling things
2023-03-17 21:51:12 +0100 <int-e> Nice, even more variables.
2023-03-17 21:51:33 +0100 <int-e> So how does one reproduce this? :-P
2023-03-17 21:52:11 +0100 <[exa]> https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_6.1#Memory_management ... well "good luck"
2023-03-17 21:53:40 +0100 <geekosaur> in any case we're well beyond "ask in #ghc" territory
2023-03-17 21:53:40 +0100 <int-e> Yeah I went there earlier; the maple tree changes stand out in that they actually touch mmap.c
2023-03-17 21:53:50 +0100 <geekosaur> and I suspect poor bgamari will be horrified
2023-03-17 21:55:06 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.41.190) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2023-03-17 21:56:32 +0100 <monochrom> This gives us Canadians a bad name. We are fond of maple things. :)
2023-03-17 21:57:22 +0100 <int-e> There are maples in Europe too
2023-03-17 21:57:42 +0100 <int-e> It's just a kind of tree. ;-)
2023-03-17 21:59:42 +0100 <janus> int-e: i am trying to see if i can reproduce it by launching ghci on the codebase
2023-03-17 22:00:02 +0100 <janus> int-e: i wasn't able to reproduce it on pandoc, which usually makes people's computers blow up
2023-03-17 22:00:14 +0100 <janus> probably because they don't have that many modules per package?
2023-03-17 22:00:36 +0100 <janus> the two projects at work i can reproduce it with both have ~1000 modules
2023-03-17 22:00:58 +0100 <int-e> monochrom: I do wonder why it's called that.
2023-03-17 22:01:15 +0100 <janus> s/ghci on the codebase/ghci on the ghc codebase/
2023-03-17 22:01:35 +0100 <geekosaur> there's a script for that somewhere
2023-03-17 22:01:57 +0100 <janus> right, i just wanted to make sure the normal hadrian build runs first, so currently crunching through stage1
2023-03-17 22:02:18 +0100 <mon_aaraj> <merijn> "ribosomerocker: Especially since..." <- yeah, i've noticed, haskell really seems to ignore interactive programming, which seems disappointing to me
2023-03-17 22:02:30 +0100 <janus> (this is my first time compiling anything more modern than ghc-0.96 :P)
2023-03-17 22:03:32 +0100 <geekosaur> need that anyway, looks like hadrian builds it
2023-03-17 22:03:53 +0100 <geekosaur> you should have a "ghc-in-ghci" somewhere after the build
2023-03-17 22:07:46 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 22:08:07 +0100sp00kins(~sp00kins@2603:3021:3971:2100::49ad) (Quit: sp00kins)
2023-03-17 22:12:07 +0100captnemo(~captnemo@193.32.127.232)
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2023-03-17 22:24:31 +0100irrgit_(~irrgit@176.113.74.138)
2023-03-17 22:27:37 +0100irrgit__(~irrgit@176.113.74.130) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-03-17 22:29:10 +0100 <EvanR> linux memory management was rewritten in Maple?
2023-03-17 22:29:16 +0100 <EvanR> that can't be good
2023-03-17 22:30:22 +0100 <davean> EvanR: Huh? I think you're deeply confused
2023-03-17 22:30:37 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: No, but it was rewritten by Oracle which doesn't sound any better.
2023-03-17 22:30:38 +0100 <geekosaur> that sounded like an EvanR-style joke to me
2023-03-17 22:30:53 +0100 <EvanR> all of the above are true
2023-03-17 22:31:23 +0100 <int-e> "rewritten" is perhaps a bit too strong, but we *were* joking
2023-03-17 22:32:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2023-03-17 22:34:23 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
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2023-03-17 22:52:19 +0100bhall(~brunohall@195.147.207.136) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-03-17 22:53:07 +0100 <janus> argh i did hadrian/ghci , it reports GHCi 9.2.7 and loads 772 modules with no crash...
2023-03-17 22:54:00 +0100 <janus> oh, but is it interpreting them? it doesn't show 'interpreted' in the parenthesis
2023-03-17 22:54:25 +0100sp00kins(~sp00kins@246.sub-174-216-180.myvzw.com)
2023-03-17 22:57:53 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2023-03-17 22:59:34 +0100freeside(~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
2023-03-17 22:59:45 +0100 <janus> i'll move to #ghc :P
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