2022/08/30

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2022-08-30 00:00:19 +0000 <qrpnxz> apache2: that sounds like the opposite of church encoding.
2022-08-30 00:00:26 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-08-30 00:02:41 +0000 <apache2> qrpnxz: indeed, it should have been operations -> products and sums -> church encoding
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2022-08-30 03:21:26 +0000 <nilradical> what's the best option to display simplicial complexes / directed hypergraphs in the browser with mouseover popup information and click-to-drag nodes to rearrange the graph functionality
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2022-08-30 06:35:52 +0000Chai-T-Rex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-08-30 06:40:10 +0000 <Clinton[m]> Lets say if I have two cabal packages `A` and `B`. Both have a flag `myflag`. `B` depends on `A`. If I do `cabal build all -f myflag`, does `B:myflag` depend on `A:myflag` or `A` by default? I thought it would depend on `A:myflag` but I'm starting to suspect it actually depends on `A`, because I'm getting weird conflicts.
2022-08-30 06:44:39 +0000ccntrq(~Thunderbi@172.209.94.92.rev.sfr.net)
2022-08-30 06:44:43 +0000 <[exa]> Clinton[m]: you may specify flags for dependencies using cabal.project, and use the conditionals from cabal.project to "carry" the flag to the dependency only if it is present
2022-08-30 06:45:18 +0000 <[exa]> roughly, this https://stackoverflow.com/a/70244631/1043097 + this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-package.html#conditions
2022-08-30 06:46:04 +0000 <[exa]> (there might be an easier way but I'm not aware of it)
2022-08-30 06:46:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-08-30 06:47:00 +0000Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@142.68.249.28)
2022-08-30 06:47:10 +0000radhika(uid560836@id-560836.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2022-08-30 06:47:11 +0000 <[exa]> (also https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project.html#conditionals-and-imports )
2022-08-30 06:47:25 +0000 <sclv> conditions in projects can’t depend on flags. depending on cabal install version top level flags apply to deps or not — lots of fixes to that happened in the latest release
2022-08-30 06:47:40 +0000 <radhika> Need some clarification on higher order function explained in lyah chap 6
2022-08-30 06:47:43 +0000 <Clinton[m]> Can I trigger the flags only when a command line argument is passed? Or do I need to separate project files?
2022-08-30 06:48:39 +0000 <radhika> applyTwice :: (a -> a) -> a ->. a
2022-08-30 06:49:03 +0000 <[exa]> sclv: oh noes :(
2022-08-30 06:49:12 +0000 <radhika> applyTwice f x = f (f x)
2022-08-30 06:49:23 +0000 <sclv> you might want two project files — one that sets the flag true for both and one false for both. includes can simplify that. that said, having one project depend on a flag setting of another is Highly Discouraged
2022-08-30 06:49:44 +0000 <sclv> flags should twiddle deps or implementation details not api surface
2022-08-30 06:50:13 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:b050:c993:addd:ae40)
2022-08-30 06:50:28 +0000 <radhika> applyTwice takes a function and an element of any type and gives an output of the same type
2022-08-30 06:50:29 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-08-30 06:51:25 +0000 <radhika> If f refers to (a->a) and x is a then why is the output f (f x)?
2022-08-30 06:51:58 +0000 <radhika> Is there a simple example?
2022-08-30 06:52:08 +0000 <sclv> radhika: consider the type of (f x).
2022-08-30 06:52:14 +0000 <sclv> what is it?
2022-08-30 06:52:29 +0000 <radhika> Function applied on an element?
2022-08-30 06:52:40 +0000 <sclv> what is the type
2022-08-30 06:52:53 +0000 <sclv> x is type a. what type is f x
2022-08-30 06:53:40 +0000 <radhika> Any type?
2022-08-30 06:53:50 +0000 <sclv> no
2022-08-30 06:54:05 +0000 <sclv> f is a function that takes a and returns a
2022-08-30 06:54:15 +0000 <radhika> Yes
2022-08-30 06:54:19 +0000 <sclv> so what is the type of applying it to x of type a
2022-08-30 06:54:47 +0000 <radhika> It will take x and return x?
2022-08-30 06:55:02 +0000 <sclv> x is the name of a value, not a type
2022-08-30 06:55:13 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-30 06:55:26 +0000 <sclv> i think you need to review earlier parts of the book if you’re stuck on this.
2022-08-30 06:55:31 +0000 <radhika> Ok it will take type a and return the same
2022-08-30 06:55:45 +0000 <sclv> good. so “f x” is type a.
2022-08-30 06:55:50 +0000 <radhika> Ya
2022-08-30 06:56:02 +0000 <sclv> so what type is “f (f x)”
2022-08-30 06:56:16 +0000jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2022-08-30 06:56:19 +0000 <radhika> Same type a
2022-08-30 06:56:25 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-08-30 06:56:33 +0000 <sclv> so does that answer your question?
2022-08-30 06:56:46 +0000 <radhika> No
2022-08-30 06:57:01 +0000Inoperable(~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science) (Excess Flood)
2022-08-30 06:57:04 +0000 <radhika> I know that return type will be of type a
2022-08-30 06:57:31 +0000 <sclv> ok, say you pass to applyTwice \x -> x + 1
2022-08-30 06:57:35 +0000 <sclv> what happens
2022-08-30 06:57:40 +0000 <radhika> My question is f refers to a -> a function
2022-08-30 06:57:45 +0000 <sclv> yes
2022-08-30 06:57:55 +0000 <radhika> Return type is a
2022-08-30 06:57:58 +0000 <sclv> yes
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2022-08-30 06:58:25 +0000 <radhika> So they have used f (f x) because it’s defined in an abstractly?
2022-08-30 06:58:35 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:ce15:f415:1eec:de15)
2022-08-30 06:58:41 +0000 <sclv> no
2022-08-30 06:58:49 +0000 <radhika> If I put values it should solve and return output of type a?
2022-08-30 06:58:50 +0000 <[exa]> radhika: what would you use instead? (the code is literally the easiest way to apply `f` twice)
2022-08-30 06:58:53 +0000 <sclv> f x is the application of f to x
2022-08-30 06:59:03 +0000 <radhika> ya
2022-08-30 06:59:11 +0000 <sclv> f (f x) is the application of f to the value (f x)
2022-08-30 06:59:36 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:2601:5a48:41a4:5314)
2022-08-30 06:59:38 +0000 <sclv> so that applies f twice. first to the initial value, then to the result of applying f once.
2022-08-30 06:59:49 +0000 <radhika> Got it
2022-08-30 06:59:52 +0000 <radhika> Thanks
2022-08-30 07:00:12 +0000 <sclv> there are many functions with that type. you could also apply once or apply three times.
2022-08-30 07:00:41 +0000 <radhika> I had an issue with the way I understood what f stands for
2022-08-30 07:00:43 +0000 <radhika> Thanks
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2022-08-30 07:13:56 +0000 <zzz> if i want some Num with only let's say 9 possible values, can I do anything better than Word performance wise?
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2022-08-30 07:21:15 +0000 <Axman6> radhika: you could write it as applyTwice f x = let once = f x; twice = f once in twice - you shouldn't but if that helps understand, go nuts
2022-08-30 07:21:36 +0000 <Axman6> an alternative way to write it would applyTwice f = f . f
2022-08-30 07:22:01 +0000kannon(~NK@135-180-47-54.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
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2022-08-30 07:25:54 +0000 <Axman6> zzz: yeah I'd be surprised if using a data declaration would be any faster
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2022-08-30 07:56:06 +0000jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Killed (silver.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
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2022-08-30 08:07:31 +0000 <jackdk> Axman6: unboxed sum of nine units?
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2022-08-30 10:54:40 +0000z0k(~z0k@206.84.142.45)
2022-08-30 10:54:51 +0000 <brprice> Is there a good way to mark a MonadState action (say, a utility function for logging execution of a state machine) as only needing read-only access to the state?
2022-08-30 10:55:23 +0000Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.163.186) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2022-08-30 11:00:15 +0000Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.163.186)
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2022-08-30 11:08:56 +0000 <opqdonut> brprice: if you're using mtl, drop down to the MonadReader class
2022-08-30 11:09:16 +0000 <opqdonut> no wait that's not quite how it works
2022-08-30 11:09:51 +0000rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-08-30 11:09:52 +0000 <opqdonut> you'd need to write your own wrapper type that implements MonadReader by accessing the state
2022-08-30 11:09:56 +0000radhika(uid560836@id-560836.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2022-08-30 11:10:35 +0000 <[exa]> brprice: you can transform it to Reader
2022-08-30 11:11:05 +0000 <opqdonut> here's one example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7292766/monads-tf-monadreader-instance-for-monadstate
2022-08-30 11:12:04 +0000 <brprice> opqdonut: thanks, but would that not have fundeps issues if I have something like MonadReader
2022-08-30 11:12:25 +0000 <brprice> opqdonut: *thanks, but would that not have fundeps issues if I have something like (MonadReader env m, MonadReadOnlyState s m) => ...
2022-08-30 11:12:55 +0000 <brprice> I should play around with that idea though -- maybe I'm missing something
2022-08-30 11:14:21 +0000eikke(~NicolasT@user/NicolasT)
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2022-08-30 11:24:46 +0000merijn(~merijn@eduroam.wifi.infracom.nl)
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2022-08-30 11:26:03 +0000bontaq`(~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net)
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2022-08-30 11:30:22 +0000 <opqdonut> brprice: see the accepted solution, which uses a wrapper newtype
2022-08-30 11:30:58 +0000 <opqdonut> brprice: but yeah, if you're using MonadReader for some other purpose already, then you can't really do this that easily
2022-08-30 11:36:16 +0000rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2022-08-30 11:44:10 +0000toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel)
2022-08-30 11:47:29 +0000Luj(~Luj@2a01:e0a:5f9:9681:193b:902c:4a27:b473) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2022-08-30 11:50:34 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-08-30 11:51:04 +0000Luj(~Luj@2a01:e0a:5f9:9681:aeac:b908:3592:7c4d)
2022-08-30 11:51:50 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-08-30 11:52:28 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2022-08-30 11:54:15 +0000Guest|59(~Guest|59@sb1-0111-08.studat.chalmers.se)
2022-08-30 11:54:21 +0000 <Guest|59> hey
2022-08-30 11:54:44 +0000 <Guest|59> im trying to install hasekll on my uni pc but i get an error
2022-08-30 11:55:57 +0000Guest|59(~Guest|59@sb1-0111-08.studat.chalmers.se) (Client Quit)
2022-08-30 11:56:41 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-08-30 11:57:02 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-30 11:59:49 +0000 <geekosaur> be nice if they stuck around a bit
2022-08-30 12:01:46 +0000 <hpc> you mean you don't know about... the error? :P
2022-08-30 12:02:06 +0000frost(~frost@user/frost) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-08-30 12:02:06 +0000 <int-e> Elsewhere somebody suggested the proper reply would be "Next time try to install it without any error."
2022-08-30 12:02:33 +0000frost(~frost@user/frost)
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2022-08-30 12:15:58 +0000 <tdammers> they weren't looking for solutions or any of that, they just came to accuse
2022-08-30 12:17:02 +0000 <kuribas> vent their frustration on having to use this weird hasekll language.
2022-08-30 12:17:09 +0000 <geekosaur> J'accuse!
2022-08-30 12:21:48 +0000 <int-e> But do they realize that programmers deal with errors all day long?
2022-08-30 12:22:31 +0000 <int-e> It's really not much of a complaint. Just needs more information :P
2022-08-30 12:24:35 +0000Cale(~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm30b7d4b3fc20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2022-08-30 12:24:53 +0000 <tdammers> "I'm trying to install hasekll on my uni pc, but i get an error. This is unacceptable! Unacceptableeeeeeeee!!!"
2022-08-30 12:25:40 +0000 <int-e> It could be worse... imagine they had succeeded and actually tried the language.
2022-08-30 12:25:59 +0000sagax(~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-08-30 12:26:24 +0000 <int-e> > how does this work
2022-08-30 12:26:25 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2022-08-30 12:26:26 +0000 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: how :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> t
2022-08-30 12:26:26 +0000 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘show’ (imported from Prelude)error: Variable not in...
2022-08-30 12:26:37 +0000 <int-e> inscrutable! unacceptable!
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2022-08-30 14:45:31 +0000f-a(f2a@f2a.jujube.ircnow.org)
2022-08-30 14:46:09 +0000 <f-a> is there a binary tree type in base or containers? Apparently I can only find Data.Tree, which is a /rose/ one.
2022-08-30 14:47:00 +0000 <Franciman> hello f-a , do you want a balanced binary tree?
2022-08-30 14:47:20 +0000 <f-a> a simple one would do
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2022-08-30 14:48:25 +0000 <Franciman> a Data.Map could do?
2022-08-30 14:48:57 +0000 <f-a> how is that similar to a tree with two branches?
2022-08-30 14:49:31 +0000 <Franciman> internally it is a binary tree
2022-08-30 14:50:06 +0000 <f-a> oh, did not know
2022-08-30 14:50:10 +0000 <f-a> thanks
2022-08-30 14:50:15 +0000oxide(~lambda@user/oxide)
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2022-08-30 14:50:36 +0000 <Franciman> unfortunately it seems it is not a binary tree in the base / containers library
2022-08-30 14:50:50 +0000 <f-a> yup, hence my question
2022-08-30 14:52:05 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-08-30 14:53:33 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-08-30 14:54:19 +0000 <Franciman> probably the haskell foundation thinks you don't need it, be smarter!
2022-08-30 14:54:38 +0000 <Franciman> maybe you don't need it
2022-08-30 14:54:57 +0000 <f-a> :P it is easy enough to write by hand, in all fairness
2022-08-30 14:55:37 +0000 <Franciman> and you can also have the Traversable Foldable etc instances directly automagically
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2022-08-30 15:17:34 +0000 <zzz> it't not only easy, it's beautiful
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2022-08-30 15:21:30 +0000 <zzz> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1661872870789
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2022-08-30 15:44:30 +0000toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel)
2022-08-30 15:45:50 +0000 <[exa]> f-a: normal pure functional binary trees suffer from frequent rewriting of spines, but there are some alternative tree designs that help with that (e.g. the finger tree for Data.Seq which is basically an "inverted" 2-3 tree, and I kinda guess someting similar is used for Data.Map)
2022-08-30 15:46:34 +0000matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-08-30 15:46:52 +0000titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-87-78-66-58.nc.de)
2022-08-30 15:47:04 +0000 <f-a> thanks
2022-08-30 15:48:57 +0000 <[exa]> (or are these weight-balanced?)
2022-08-30 15:49:42 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-73-237-184-20.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2022-08-30 15:49:46 +0000 <[exa]> btw the first answer here is pretty good https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4166027/what-self-balancing-tree-is-simplest-in-functional-pro…
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2022-08-30 16:05:47 +0000 <nilradical> when i try to run `cabal test`, i get an error: "symbol not found in flat namespace (_sheafzm0zi3zi0zi0zminplace_ToposziFamily_Family_con_info) " I've tried `cabal clean` but it did not help. what is this about?
2022-08-30 16:05:58 +0000f-a(f2a@f2a.jujube.ircnow.org) ()
2022-08-30 16:06:07 +0000 <nilradical> i can do `cabal build` with no errors or warnings
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2022-08-30 16:18:44 +0000coldtom(~coldtom@coldrick.cc)
2022-08-30 16:20:23 +0000 <nilradical> ok, it seems the problem is coming from the line `checkParallel $$(discover)` that detects all my tests from hedgeHog that uses template haskell. if i get rid of that and write the names of tests manually it's ok
2022-08-30 16:25:02 +0000ak-coram(~user@catv-80-98-11-153.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu)
2022-08-30 16:26:26 +0000kuribas`(~user@silversquare.silversquare.eu) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2022-08-30 16:26:31 +0000 <ak-coram> Hi, I'm experiencing this issue: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69969060/haskell-hdbc-odbc-connection-gets-disposed-of-immedia…
2022-08-30 16:27:30 +0000 <ak-coram> and the suggestion is to block RTS signals (SIGALRM & SIGVTALRM) so they don't interrupt the ODBC driver code
2022-08-30 16:28:18 +0000 <ak-coram> which all makes sense except that I'm on Windows, which to my knowledge doesn't use signals like this
2022-08-30 16:28:32 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-08-30 16:29:03 +0000 <geekosaur> it still has timers, though, which may interrupt DB operations. have you tried +RTS -V0
2022-08-30 16:29:04 +0000 <geekosaur> ?
2022-08-30 16:29:42 +0000 <ak-coram> yeah, I've tried +RTS -V0 and it makes my program run longer, but it happens all the same (just later)
2022-08-30 16:30:05 +0000 <ak-coram> is there anything else I'd need to block?
2022-08-30 16:30:18 +0000econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-08-30 16:30:47 +0000 <geekosaur> not to my knowledge
2022-08-30 16:31:00 +0000 <geekosaur> not that that proves much since I don't know the Windows RTS
2022-08-30 16:31:27 +0000 <ak-coram> I'm also in unfamiliar territory :)
2022-08-30 16:32:17 +0000 <ak-coram> I've also tried switching to the single-threaded RTS, but that doesn't seem to make a difference
2022-08-30 16:34:03 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-73-237-184-20.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-30 16:34:09 +0000 <ak-coram> Maybe this has to do something with green threads?
2022-08-30 16:34:18 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-73-237-184-20.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2022-08-30 16:34:25 +0000 <geekosaur> if the single threaded RTS didn't change it then no
2022-08-30 16:34:43 +0000 <geekosaur> (single threaded RTS is green threads, -threaded is OS threads)
2022-08-30 16:36:33 +0000 <ak-coram> ok, but isn't there a scheduler for them which could interrupt FFI calls?
2022-08-30 16:36:34 +0000raym(~raym@user/raym)
2022-08-30 16:37:50 +0000 <geekosaur> there is, but +RTS -V0 switches that off and they yield at every allocation instead of when timer-scheduled
2022-08-30 16:37:58 +0000 <geekosaur> (which is why it slows things down)
2022-08-30 16:39:40 +0000 <ak-coram> That is good to know!
2022-08-30 16:39:43 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-08-30 16:41:19 +0000Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
2022-08-30 16:41:45 +0000 <ak-coram> Any ideas how the scheduler takes control of an OS thread on Windows?
2022-08-30 16:44:12 +0000 <geekosaur> nope
2022-08-30 16:44:32 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-30 16:44:59 +0000 <ak-coram> I was thinking of logging the system calls, maybe I'll find something close to the crash
2022-08-30 16:45:26 +0000 <ak-coram> but it would be nice to know what to look for :)
2022-08-30 16:46:23 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-30 16:49:49 +0000ccntrq(~Thunderbi@172.209.94.92.rev.sfr.net)
2022-08-30 16:50:23 +0000 <tdammers> isn't -threaded green threads too, only dispatched over multiple OS threads (a.k.a. "capabilities")?
2022-08-30 16:50:40 +0000 <geekosaur> I think so, yes
2022-08-30 16:50:55 +0000 <ak-coram> yes, it should be
2022-08-30 16:51:35 +0000 <geekosaur> hm. what version of ghc are you using?
2022-08-30 16:52:02 +0000jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2022-08-30 16:52:11 +0000 <ak-coram> 9.2.4
2022-08-30 16:52:24 +0000 <ak-coram> but this happens in older versions too
2022-08-30 16:52:30 +0000 <geekosaur> okay, so it won't be the FFI+GC issue in 9.2.0-9.2.3
2022-08-30 16:53:04 +0000jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com)
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2022-08-30 17:39:57 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-08-30 17:41:08 +0000 <ak-coram> ok, I can reproduce the issue on Linux too with the signals blocked
2022-08-30 17:41:51 +0000 <ak-coram> I think it might be a bug in the HDBC-odbc bindings, if I turn on tracing (enable a print function) the issue goes away
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2022-08-30 17:50:59 +0000toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-08-30 17:51:35 +0000 <mrianbloom> If you have a monad transformer stack that includes two StateT transformers each with a unique state type is there a way to automatically lift to the right layer just by annotating the type of a 'get' statement (in the MonadState typeclass)?
2022-08-30 17:53:05 +0000 <dolio> No.
2022-08-30 17:53:21 +0000 <Rembane> mrianbloom: You can write that function yourself though by lifting the right number of times.
2022-08-30 17:53:31 +0000 <Rembane> mrianbloom: ...and name it something else than `get`
2022-08-30 17:53:36 +0000david_(~david@2a01:e34:ec2b:d430:44a:f5ca:9867:d69d)
2022-08-30 17:53:41 +0000 <david_> Hi
2022-08-30 17:53:53 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.94.248) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-30 17:53:58 +0000 <david_> I wanted to create a type alias
2022-08-30 17:53:58 +0000david_Guest4971
2022-08-30 17:54:02 +0000 <Guest4971> Hello
2022-08-30 17:54:15 +0000 <Guest4971> I wanted to create a type alias (can you read me?)
2022-08-30 17:54:32 +0000 <Guest4971> something like: newtype Matrix = Ord e => A.Array (Int, Int) e
2022-08-30 17:54:48 +0000 <Guest4971> but pretty sure this is wrong; any idea on how to do this?
2022-08-30 17:55:51 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-08-30 17:56:00 +0000 <monochrom> type Matrix e = A.Array (Int,Int) e
2022-08-30 17:56:01 +0000kannon(~NK@135-180-47-54.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-08-30 17:56:10 +0000 <geekosaur> that's viable if you expose the e and probably move the constraint outside the newtyoe
2022-08-30 17:56:14 +0000 <geekosaur> *newtype
2022-08-30 17:56:25 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.94.248)
2022-08-30 17:56:27 +0000 <geekosaur> listen to monochrom
2022-08-30 17:56:35 +0000 <monochrom> :)
2022-08-30 17:56:59 +0000 <geekosaur> I missed that it was a newtype
2022-08-30 17:57:08 +0000 <geekosaur> the names for these things are a bit confusing
2022-08-30 17:57:30 +0000 <geekosaur> "type" creates a type alias; "data" creates a new type; "newtype" wraps an existing type so it becomes distinct
2022-08-30 17:57:32 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.94.248) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-30 17:57:37 +0000 <monochrom> Skip the "Ord e". Move it to those functions that actually need it.
2022-08-30 17:57:41 +0000 <geekosaur> (like a new type, without actually being one)
2022-08-30 17:57:42 +0000 <Guest4971> ho yes, what I really want is a type alias
2022-08-30 17:57:44 +0000 <mrianbloom> I'm hoping to write something that is polymorphic over different stacks. Hoping to just say that one state type is in stack with a constraint.
2022-08-30 17:57:58 +0000yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:770a:5d50:c269:721e)
2022-08-30 17:58:13 +0000 <geekosaur> mrianbloom, I think mtl does not support that well. effect systems might work better but have their own issues
2022-08-30 17:58:48 +0000 <mrianbloom> I see. What if I wrap StateT in a newtype and derive instances?
2022-08-30 17:59:16 +0000 <monochrom> That doesn't change your issue.
2022-08-30 17:59:21 +0000 <geekosaur> you're still in trouble if one of the derived instances is StateT
2022-08-30 17:59:27 +0000 <geekosaur> er, MonadState
2022-08-30 17:59:43 +0000 <geekosaur> "there can be only one™"
2022-08-30 17:59:46 +0000 <monochrom> Your issue is that being polymorphic in MonadState it resolves to just one of the StateT, probably the outermost one.
2022-08-30 18:00:20 +0000ak-coram(~user@catv-80-98-11-153.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu) (Quit: ERC 5.4.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.0.50))
2022-08-30 18:00:43 +0000 <monochrom> It can only be solved by either giving up polymorphism or doubling down on polymorphism. The latter means you create MonadState2 for the inner StateT.
2022-08-30 18:00:50 +0000 <geekosaur> you could have a second one by lifting past the first one. but there's nothing that will help you do that, or hide which one's outer and which inner
2022-08-30 18:01:14 +0000 <monochrom> Oh and then of course the inner StateT needs renaming too.
2022-08-30 18:02:43 +0000 <monochrom> There is a reason a lot of us conclude that mtl teaches you a great idea but you don't use mtl itself per se, you create your own types and classes custom-made to your problem domain.
2022-08-30 18:02:44 +0000 <mrianbloom> I see, it seems like I can wrap all of this in newtypes just wondering if I have to wrap MonadState itself? As in write type specific 'get'.
2022-08-30 18:03:15 +0000 <monochrom> It's like saying "don't use (,) and Either, make your own custom-named equivalents" on steroid.
2022-08-30 18:04:56 +0000 <Rembane> monochrom: I've been drinking abstraction tea the whole day, so I wonder if there is a MonadStateN?
2022-08-30 18:05:06 +0000 <monochrom> Haha
2022-08-30 18:06:36 +0000 <monochrom> OK so technically, I think but I haven't checked, you can have "(MonadState m X, MonadState m Y) =>", and "StateT X ... StateT Y", and if X and Y are distinct, then "get :: m X" and "get :: m Y" will resolve to what you want.
2022-08-30 18:06:55 +0000 <Rembane> I sense a big but here. :)
2022-08-30 18:07:14 +0000 <monochrom> No no no, I'm going to crank that up to eleven!
2022-08-30 18:07:23 +0000 <Rembane> Sweet!
2022-08-30 18:09:33 +0000 <dolio> MTL isn't the problem. The problem is trying to implement a compound state by two state effects that are 'automatically' resolved by type.
2022-08-30 18:09:38 +0000 <monochrom> So perhaps you can define "newtype NthStateT (n :: Nat) s m a = ..." and the corresponding class, so you can have "(NthMonadState 3 m X, NthMonadState 10 m Y) =>"...
2022-08-30 18:10:11 +0000gustik(~gustik@2a01:c844:2457:2220:475d:34f:d571:996f)
2022-08-30 18:11:08 +0000 <monochrom> Oh hey maybe I can also apply that to "liftAn :: (n :: Nat) -> ..."
2022-08-30 18:11:12 +0000vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.94.248)
2022-08-30 18:11:40 +0000 <dolio> When you want to have multiple pieces of state, you used names/references.
2022-08-30 18:12:23 +0000 <monochrom> err I guess it's "liftAn :: Proxy (n :: Nat) -> ...".
2022-08-30 18:13:28 +0000wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-08-30 18:14:42 +0000 <monochrom> I'm going to name my idea "indexed state monads" just so as to confuse everyone who already knows "indexed monads". >:)
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2022-08-30 18:19:41 +0000toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel)
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2022-08-30 18:21:33 +0000 <mrianbloom> It just seems like if the state type itself is unique, you should be able to lift to the appropriate one.
2022-08-30 18:22:00 +0000Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.163.186) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:22:09 +0000Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2022-08-30 18:22:10 +0000 <mrianbloom> I guess that requires incoherent instances...
2022-08-30 18:22:43 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.163.186) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2022-08-30 18:30:36 +0000Wenji(~Wenji@mainpc.lha.sgsnet.se)
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2022-08-30 18:34:49 +0000 <qrpnxz> monochrom: i think ya meant MonadState X m and so on
2022-08-30 18:36:11 +0000waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340)
2022-08-30 18:36:46 +0000Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-08-30 18:37:22 +0000merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-08-30 18:37:45 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:38:00 +0000 <qrpnxz> as for picking a state. You can use type applications or sigs to disambiguate, or unify the state into one object and then use `zoom` from lens to pick what you want. Some eff systems also come with plugins that will help GHC figure out the state you want without having to annotate.
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2022-08-30 18:39:02 +0000zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
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2022-08-30 18:39:34 +0000Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2022-08-30 18:39:44 +0000 <mrianbloom> qrpnxz: I see. If I want to stick with monad transformers how would I specify a constraint that says that the stack contains a specific state: MonadState state m?
2022-08-30 18:40:01 +0000 <qrpnxz> just like that: MonadState state m
2022-08-30 18:41:21 +0000 <qrpnxz> you can also make the states explicit as arguments to a lambda, do your business, and then when you are done wrap the lambdas back into StateT again and hoist them into your stack.
2022-08-30 18:42:15 +0000 <qrpnxz> it depends how much you are going to touch state and the nature of the function which of these techniques will come more natural
2022-08-30 18:42:28 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-08-30 18:42:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:42:37 +0000 <mrianbloom> So I believe that's what I'm doing right now (specifying a MonadState constraint) but I get a type error saying that its trying to match the state to the top of the stack.
2022-08-30 18:43:02 +0000 <qrpnxz> even when you annotate the state type at the use site?
2022-08-30 18:43:18 +0000 <qrpnxz> it should skip the non-matching state and try the other one if you annotate
2022-08-30 18:43:35 +0000 <qrpnxz> post some code maybe?
2022-08-30 18:45:19 +0000 <mrianbloom> Its before I get to the use site unfortunately. I'm basically saying that in order to use this function over a monad, the monad must have this constraint and then when I try to use the function the constraint causes the type error. Sorry if this is convoluted but I don't have example code lined up yet, its for a project at work.
2022-08-30 18:45:58 +0000 <qrpnxz> what does the error look like
2022-08-30 18:46:26 +0000 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Q2Ix5qkL/
2022-08-30 18:46:56 +0000slack1256(~slack1256@191.125.227.209)
2022-08-30 18:46:59 +0000fserucas(~fserucas@89.214.116.132) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:47:02 +0000 <mrianbloom> So I believe the DMap is the upper layer, the CollectorEnvironment is the next layer down.
2022-08-30 18:47:31 +0000 <qrpnxz> can you paste your transformer stack?
2022-08-30 18:47:56 +0000 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AEDuy3mF/
2022-08-30 18:48:50 +0000 <mrianbloom> Sorry lots of type aliases here, CollectorT is an alias for StateT and so is EnvT.
2022-08-30 18:48:52 +0000jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-08-30 18:49:07 +0000slac49339(~slack1256@186.11.99.53) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:49:36 +0000 <mrianbloom> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mllPBRuO/
2022-08-30 18:49:48 +0000 <mrianbloom> I'm in deeep.
2022-08-30 18:50:23 +0000 <monochrom> Is there anything that stops you from merging the two StateT's into one?
2022-08-30 18:51:01 +0000bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) (Quit: leaving)
2022-08-30 18:52:14 +0000 <mrianbloom> It's just a seperation of concerns thing really. I construct algebras that evaluate a term structure and the SubstEnv type is just a general type for dealing with call-by-value variables while the collector is really specific to this function.
2022-08-30 18:53:34 +0000 <mrianbloom> Like I said, I wish I had better example code that I can share. I'm hoping to find out the most common way of handling this issue without writing a ton of boilerplate.
2022-08-30 18:53:36 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-08-30 18:55:10 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-08-30 18:57:08 +0000 <qrpnxz> i have no idea why it's trying to match "Data.Dependent.Map.Internal.DMap" is you told it to match "CollectorEnvironment HyDeed"
2022-08-30 18:57:10 +0000lyle(~lyle@104.246.145.85)
2022-08-30 18:57:15 +0000 <qrpnxz> *if
2022-08-30 18:58:17 +0000 <qrpnxz> like, that's not even the other State, just a random third type that it has no business being. Somewhere you are doing a get or put or modify that's implying a non-sense type
2022-08-30 18:58:38 +0000trillp(~trillp@69.233.98.238) (Quit: nyaa~)
2022-08-30 18:59:00 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-73-237-184-20.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-30 18:59:12 +0000 <lyle> It seems impossible to open a file for reading and writing at the same time (I get resource busy file is locked.) Is there a way around this? Hard links don't help.
2022-08-30 18:59:15 +0000 <mrianbloom> qrpnxz: I'm actually using a type family to describe the constraint so that might be the source of the problem...
2022-08-30 18:59:20 +0000dsrt^(~dsrt@c-73-237-184-20.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2022-08-30 19:00:11 +0000nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-08-30 19:00:26 +0000 <monochrom> Separation of concerns to me means both what you said and also replace the generic MonadState by two distinct custom-made domain-specific classes MonadSubStEnv and MonadTheOtherOne so now there is no room for confusion.
2022-08-30 19:00:47 +0000 <monochrom> Seriously, the very word "MonadState" is the anti-thesis to separation of concerns.
2022-08-30 19:01:15 +0000 <qrpnxz> lyle: maybe this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5053135/resource-busy-file-is-locked-error-in-haskell
2022-08-30 19:01:36 +0000 <monochrom> Two "states" for two entirely orthogonal purposes get lumped into the same "MonadState". That is called melting pot of concerns.
2022-08-30 19:01:56 +0000 <qrpnxz> excellent point mono
2022-08-30 19:02:12 +0000 <qrpnxz> That's actually the proper way to go i forgot
2022-08-30 19:02:15 +0000 <mrianbloom> I see. I started doing that and just felt like I was writing a bunch of boilerplate just to get the type system to select the right instance.
2022-08-30 19:02:41 +0000 <qrpnxz> i mean, it's is boiler plate, but i think you can write a universal pass-through instance for those
2022-08-30 19:02:46 +0000 <qrpnxz> *it is
2022-08-30 19:03:24 +0000 <monochrom> I don't see boilerplate. I see structural scaffolding.
2022-08-30 19:03:25 +0000 <qrpnxz> unless you have ContT in your stack i guess
2022-08-30 19:03:51 +0000 <monochrom> Scaffolding that defines structures and roles.
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2022-08-30 19:04:36 +0000 <monochrom> And you can cut out 50% of that if you don't go polymorphic so you don't even have those two classes.
2022-08-30 19:04:54 +0000 <mrianbloom> Ok, so let's say I change those type aliases to newtypes or data. Which classes would I need to instantiate to make them play well with the rest of mtl?
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2022-08-30 19:05:58 +0000 <monochrom> I'll tell you what I did to toy interpreters in my course.
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2022-08-30 19:07:25 +0000 <monochrom> On an assignment, I have the equiv of Writer. I rename it to TracyModel so it is ungooglable, and also it's a good name for the semantica model of a language that has a "trace" command.
2022-08-30 19:08:15 +0000 <monochrom> I create the corresponding TracyMonad class to generalize TracyModel. But there is only one reason:
2022-08-30 19:09:29 +0000 <monochrom> I declare the interpreter type to be "TracyMonad m => Expr -> m Value" to forbid students from using the TracyModel data constructor directly.
2022-08-30 19:09:36 +0000 <monochrom> That's really the only reason.
2022-08-30 19:09:59 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.163.186)
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2022-08-30 19:10:07 +0000 <mrianbloom> I see.
2022-08-30 19:10:22 +0000 <darkling> I feel that there's an unexplored Thunderbirds reference to shoe-horn into that assignment. :)
2022-08-30 19:11:04 +0000hays(rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-08-30 19:11:16 +0000 <mrianbloom> So do you remember which other classes TracyModel needs to instantiate?
2022-08-30 19:11:19 +0000rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
2022-08-30 19:11:21 +0000 <monochrom> I want them to see there is a low level of using TracyModel itself to build up pure, >>=, and the TracyMonad method "msg". And then there is a high level of building upon those for the interpreter itself.
2022-08-30 19:12:01 +0000 <monochrom> Now, on the exam.
2022-08-30 19:13:06 +0000 <monochrom> On the exam, I have the equiv of StateT Writer, except I define the merged type, I haven't taught them StateT, but they know State and Tracy.
2022-08-30 19:13:19 +0000eikke(~NicolasT@user/NicolasT)
2022-08-30 19:13:28 +0000 <monochrom> This time I don't bother creating a class.
2022-08-30 19:13:37 +0000neceve(~quassel@2.26.93.14)
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2022-08-30 19:13:54 +0000 <monochrom> I just have part (a) "implement pure >>= get put msg for this combined type".
2022-08-30 19:14:16 +0000 <monochrom> And part (b) "using only those functions, not the type itself, complete the interpreter".
2022-08-30 19:14:27 +0000 <qrpnxz> mrianbloom: instances are for: 1) you have an different implementation. 2) you want automatic lifting to transformers above that effect
2022-08-30 19:14:47 +0000 <monochrom> The exam is marked by humans. I can give instructions and see whether the students comply.
2022-08-30 19:16:01 +0000 <monochrom> The assignment is automarked. I use statically-checked parametricity to force the desired solution.
2022-08-30 19:17:10 +0000 <monochrom> You do not need polymorphism until you need it.
2022-08-30 19:17:41 +0000 <Rembane> But it's quite cool
2022-08-30 19:17:42 +0000 <qrpnxz> amen
2022-08-30 19:17:54 +0000 <qrpnxz> i should get that on a plaque for my wall
2022-08-30 19:18:06 +0000 <qrpnxz> "You do not need polymoriphism until you need it."
2022-08-30 19:18:07 +0000rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-08-30 19:18:27 +0000 <monochrom> You may also like: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html :)
2022-08-30 19:18:39 +0000 <mrianbloom> qprnxz: I think automatic lifting is really all I want.
2022-08-30 19:18:57 +0000 <qrpnxz> "0. “X is like Y” can always be argued to be true." i already disagree :(
2022-08-30 19:19:31 +0000 <monochrom> Seriously, if you have a substitution environment for your interpreter, I very much doubt that "get" and "put" are the right level in the first place.
2022-08-30 19:19:57 +0000 <qrpnxz> "Every inexplicable problem is caused by something you don't think is the cause." another good one
2022-08-30 19:20:24 +0000 <monochrom> The real operations of a substutition environment are "add" and "apply". "get" and "put" are implementation details that shouldn't be visible.
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2022-08-30 19:21:33 +0000 <monochrom> My TracyMonad can have an addition excuse for its existence because at least I do have another instance in mind, namely IO.
2022-08-30 19:21:53 +0000 <monochrom> What is the right of existence for MonadState in an interpreter?
2022-08-30 19:24:05 +0000 <dolio> Certainly, MonadState constraints are not an adequate substitute for named references.
2022-08-30 19:24:08 +0000 <qrpnxz> if all your state lives there, it makes sense. Or local state of that function that you run there as well
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2022-08-30 19:24:20 +0000 <dolio> It is like having a single global variable for each type.
2022-08-30 19:24:33 +0000 <dolio> And expecting the variable to be resolved by the type.
2022-08-30 19:25:14 +0000 <qrpnxz> that's why i like the zoom approach, then you have only one state to worry about, and the substates have names
2022-08-30 19:25:27 +0000 <dolio> And in the presence of polymorphism, you may not know that two different abstract variable references are actually references to the same variable.
2022-08-30 19:25:29 +0000 <qrpnxz> and you can even have multiple of the same type
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2022-08-30 19:29:59 +0000 <monochrom> That reminds me of what procedure calls were compiled to, before Peter Naur said "just use a stack".
2022-08-30 19:30:48 +0000 <monochrom> Every procedure was given a global word-size variable for storing the return address when called.
2022-08-30 19:31:24 +0000 <monochrom> This was why no one was ready to believe that Naur could do recursion.
2022-08-30 19:32:09 +0000 <dolio> Yeah.
2022-08-30 19:32:11 +0000 <monochrom> Also am I the only one who suspect that you should s/State/Reader/ for substitution environments?
2022-08-30 19:34:20 +0000 <Franciman> and then haskellers said: just use a thunk
2022-08-30 19:34:22 +0000 <Franciman> :)
2022-08-30 19:34:53 +0000 <Franciman> well maybe to be quite frank it was LazyML the language haskell is inspired from?
2022-08-30 19:34:56 +0000 <Franciman> or miranda
2022-08-30 19:36:13 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-08-30 19:36:13 +0000 <monochrom> Certainly Miranda had a great influence.
2022-08-30 19:36:16 +0000 <mrianbloom> monochrom: There are functions around those for retrieving and adding to the environment but I'm not sure if Reader will work. The collector is just an append only monad that gives you back a unique id for each item.
2022-08-30 19:36:50 +0000 <monochrom> To a large extent Miranda : Haskell :: Bell Unix : BSD Unix :: PGP : GPG :: ...
2022-08-30 19:37:29 +0000geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-08-30 19:39:17 +0000 <monochrom> LazyML doesn't go lazy by default, right? It says instead you specify "suspend" and "force".
2022-08-30 19:39:21 +0000 <qrpnxz> if they had a transparent stack, they could hoist a readerT into stateT, which would be nice because then you could see the state is not been mutated, but i doubt it's worth it
2022-08-30 19:39:48 +0000 <qrpnxz> if the monad is totally opaque and you just have constraints, then you also get that feature
2022-08-30 19:40:00 +0000 <qrpnxz> but being poly on the monad can be terrible for performance
2022-08-30 19:40:29 +0000hgolden(~Howard@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-08-30 19:40:32 +0000 <qrpnxz> actually even in that case you don't get that feature, because StateT doesn't have a Reader instance
2022-08-30 19:40:36 +0000 <qrpnxz> for some reason
2022-08-30 19:40:46 +0000 <qrpnxz> so you'd need another transformer that did have it
2022-08-30 19:41:20 +0000 <monochrom> Probably the "local" method doesn't make a lot of sense for StateT.
2022-08-30 19:42:05 +0000 <monochrom> But now I have to mark my StateT Writer question haha.
2022-08-30 19:44:29 +0000 <monochrom> OK I have a student who implemented >>= perfectly but goofed up on get, could not do put.
2022-08-30 19:45:14 +0000 <qrpnxz> you got two options for local: local f ma = get >>= \s -> put (f s) >> ma >> (put s <|> pure ())
2022-08-30 19:45:16 +0000hays(rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays)
2022-08-30 19:47:41 +0000 <qrpnxz> monochrom: so any student curious enough to look at `transformers` should have no problem with your exam?
2022-08-30 19:48:00 +0000 <Rembane> transformers! More than meets the eye!
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2022-08-30 20:15:18 +0000vaibhavsagar[m](~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe)
2022-08-30 20:15:35 +0000 <alexd> hi there, I am getting 'The record update is ambiguous. This will not be supported by -XDuplicateRecordFields in future releases of GHC.'
2022-08-30 20:15:43 +0000 <alexd> this warning is a bit confusing
2022-08-30 20:16:00 +0000 <alexd> I am using overloaded record dot extension
2022-08-30 20:16:25 +0000 <alexd> how do I specialize it to make compiler happy?
2022-08-30 20:17:02 +0000 <Rembane> alexd: Do you have a minimum example that you can share?
2022-08-30 20:17:10 +0000aveltras[m](~aveltrasm@2001:470:69fc:105::3ef9)
2022-08-30 20:18:18 +0000econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-08-30 20:20:04 +0000 <alexd> let foo = foo {
2022-08-30 20:20:05 +0000 <alexd> bar = foo.bar {
2022-08-30 20:20:05 +0000 <alexd> baz = foo.bar.baz + 1
2022-08-30 20:20:06 +0000 <alexd> }
2022-08-30 20:20:08 +0000 <alexd> }
2022-08-30 20:20:22 +0000 <alexd> ghc 9.2.4
2022-08-30 20:21:09 +0000 <alexd> I see the warning when -Wambiguous-fields is on
2022-08-30 20:23:10 +0000 <alexd> ok I think https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/disambiguate_record_fields.html should help me
2022-08-30 20:26:17 +0000Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius)
2022-08-30 20:27:34 +0000Guest35(~Guest35@2606:54c0:840:b0::1a:cf)
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2022-08-30 20:34:23 +0000 <qrpnxz> alexd: you might want to consider using a library like `lens`
2022-08-30 20:35:26 +0000Guest35(~Guest35@2606:54c0:840:b0::1a:cf) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-08-30 20:36:48 +0000 <qrpnxz> it will make the above look like `foo . bar . baz %~ (+1) $ foo`
2022-08-30 20:37:58 +0000shailangsa_(~shailangs@host86-185-98-81.range86-185.btcentralplus.com)
2022-08-30 20:38:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-08-30 20:39:38 +0000 <glguy> if we're lens golfing: (bar . baz +~ 1) foo
2022-08-30 20:40:15 +0000 <glguy> or to get some extra operator points: foo & bar . baz +~ 1
2022-08-30 20:41:33 +0000 <qrpnxz> yes, i should not have put that first foo actually
2022-08-30 20:41:43 +0000 <qrpnxz> foo & bar . baz +~ 1 is best
2022-08-30 20:42:04 +0000 <qrpnxz> Record dot extension btfo
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2022-08-30 20:58:07 +0000Killy(~killy@2001:470:69fc:105::2:6ec1)
2022-08-30 20:59:21 +0000 <Guest4971> Hello, how is it guaranteed that [ x | x <- [1..10]] == [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] ?
2022-08-30 20:59:57 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.176.158) (Quit: coot)
2022-08-30 21:00:02 +0000 <Rembane> Because that's how ranges work.
2022-08-30 21:00:03 +0000 <qrpnxz> Guest4971: what other result could it be?
2022-08-30 21:00:21 +0000 <Guest4971> resulting list order could be different
2022-08-30 21:00:21 +0000 <qrpnxz> it's a pure computation, so the output is always the same for the same input, and that's the output it should produce so
2022-08-30 21:00:30 +0000 <qrpnxz> how could it be different?
2022-08-30 21:01:10 +0000 <Guest4971> just wanted to verify that it's indeed the case
2022-08-30 21:01:14 +0000 <qrpnxz> 👍
2022-08-30 21:01:21 +0000raym(~raym@user/raym)
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2022-08-30 21:01:26 +0000 <Guest4971> esp was thinking about the ordering
2022-08-30 21:04:08 +0000 <monochrom> What does "guarantee" mean to you?
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2022-08-30 21:30:09 +0000 <jackdk> Guest4971: [1..10] is desugared to `enumFromTo 1 10`
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2022-08-30 21:31:06 +0000 <geekosaur> and Enum has a `succ`(essor) method
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2022-08-30 23:37:59 +0000segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2022-08-30 23:38:55 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> how does a real programmer (read: not yours truly) compare CPUs?
2022-08-30 23:44:04 +0000 <Axman6> > compare "CPU A" "CPU B"
2022-08-30 23:44:06 +0000 <lambdabot> LT
2022-08-30 23:45:00 +0000 <monochrom> I thought only PC gamers compare CPUs. :)
2022-08-30 23:46:08 +0000 <hpc> there's some truth in that
2022-08-30 23:46:31 +0000 <hpc> i mostly only think about memory use, disk IO patterns, and network bandwidth
2022-08-30 23:46:39 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> like i look at powerPC and they say the CPU has something special about cache sharing
2022-08-30 23:46:58 +0000 <qrpnxz> i thought powerpc was dead lol
2022-08-30 23:47:01 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and then i look at some other CPU and it has DHAIJ-4i890889q
2022-08-30 23:47:02 +0000 <hpc> leave that sort of thing to kernel developers
2022-08-30 23:47:15 +0000 <qrpnxz> tf is DHAndyq2302
2022-08-30 23:47:25 +0000jmorris(uid537181@id-537181.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-08-30 23:47:38 +0000 <hpc> by the time it matters how good your cpu is, you have enough millions to just by one of each and benchmark
2022-08-30 23:47:53 +0000 <Axman6> if you own a car you probably own half a dozen PowerPC chips
2022-08-30 23:48:00 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and like do i need ITJHo0-509039 or EIJHAEIJKqqq or does not having it get in the way of turing completeness or something
2022-08-30 23:48:18 +0000 <qrpnxz> i have a 5950x and i wish it was faster. 😩 New gen ryzen coming out tho :)
2022-08-30 23:48:59 +0000 <waleee> having someting that's x86_64_v3 compatible is nice as the very minimum
2022-08-30 23:49:28 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hpc: so it's an OS-level thing? at the application level this stuff just doesn't show up?
2022-08-30 23:49:42 +0000 <qrpnxz> i've wanted high-tier ARM for a while. Apple did it which blew my mind, but i don't compute on fruits
2022-08-30 23:50:18 +0000 <hpc> i mean, you'll notice the performance
2022-08-30 23:50:22 +0000 <Axman6> keep paying that x86_64 power bill then
2022-08-30 23:50:36 +0000 <qrpnxz> xd, i don't even know any consumer desktop arm cpu
2022-08-30 23:50:37 +0000 <hpc> but there's probably not a lot you can do in your own code to exploit it
2022-08-30 23:50:46 +0000 <qrpnxz> never mind high-end ones
2022-08-30 23:51:02 +0000 <hpc> without writing super weird cpu-specific code that probably needs special privileges anyway
2022-08-30 23:51:09 +0000 <qrpnxz> RISC-V would be even better, but if ARM is not happening, then RISC-V even less
2022-08-30 23:51:13 +0000 <Axman6> the performace per watt for M1, M2 is just nuts. having 400GB/s of memory bandwidth is pretty insane too - imagine being able to garbage collect your whole system's memory several times a second
2022-08-30 23:51:45 +0000 <qrpnxz> the perfect python machine 😭
2022-08-30 23:51:45 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i think (?) i understand that bigger cache is better but then i saw somewhere that 1 Gb (or GB?) cache will be shipping very soon so
2022-08-30 23:52:03 +0000 <qrpnxz> 1GB?!
2022-08-30 23:52:09 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i understand memory bandwidth
2022-08-30 23:52:11 +0000 <waleee> Axman6: M1 et al isn't exactly cheap to buy up front
2022-08-30 23:52:31 +0000 <Axman6> not yet, no
2022-08-30 23:52:50 +0000 <Axman6> I reckon the M1 airs will come down in price over time
2022-08-30 23:52:51 +0000 <qrpnxz> what is having 1GB cache i dont' believe it
2022-08-30 23:52:57 +0000 <waleee> also not for the macos-allergic person
2022-08-30 23:53:07 +0000 <qrpnxz> a crazy server chip?
2022-08-30 23:53:23 +0000 <Axman6> it's just Unix
2022-08-30 23:53:34 +0000 <qrpnxz> my mom getting a brand spanking new M1 pro soon.
2022-08-30 23:53:49 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> yeah i can understand memory bandwidth as something a chip does
2022-08-30 23:53:51 +0000 <waleee> I prefer my unix looking more like dwm than og windows 11
2022-08-30 23:53:51 +0000 <qrpnxz> after over a decade having her other mac
2022-08-30 23:54:39 +0000 <geekosaur> actually I like the UI. the whole SIP/codesign/make-it-so-only-apple-approved-developers-can-write-software thing can go away though
2022-08-30 23:55:01 +0000 <Axman6> that's not really a thing
2022-08-30 23:55:08 +0000 <qrpnxz> my work laptop is mac, i vastly prefer gnome personally
2022-08-30 23:55:17 +0000luffy(~chenqisu1@183.217.201.192) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-08-30 23:55:29 +0000 <qrpnxz> more practical
2022-08-30 23:56:29 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://www.servethehome.com/server-cpus-transitioning-to-the-gb-onboard-era/ ... EPYC 72F3 has 256MB of L3 cache right now
2022-08-30 23:56:57 +0000 <Axman6> RIP your power bill if you run a server CPU for you every day machine
2022-08-30 23:57:29 +0000kannon(~NK@74-95-14-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
2022-08-30 23:57:46 +0000nilradical(~nilradica@user/naso)
2022-08-30 23:57:58 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://www.club386.com/amd-unleashes-epyc-7003-series-with-3d-v-cache/ 768MB L3 in EPYC 7003
2022-08-30 23:59:25 +0000braf(~braf@58.84.143.92)
2022-08-30 23:59:39 +0000 <segfaultfizzbuzz> chiplets/stacking means cache size will go to infinity very soon i guess
2022-08-30 23:59:41 +0000luffy(~chenqisu1@183.217.201.192)