2022/06/28

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2022-06-28 00:00:28 +0000DGMrKong(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-28 00:00:29 +0000 <geekosaur> you don't have to save/restore the status area, it stays put
2022-06-28 00:00:31 +0000hamishmack(sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com)
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2022-06-28 00:00:38 +0000feetwind(~mike@2406:d501::79ae:5f3e)
2022-06-28 00:00:39 +0000 <geekosaur> ypou just define the scrolling area to not include it
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2022-06-28 00:01:03 +0000DGMrKong(~arj0019@162.218.254.7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-28 00:01:09 +0000 <geekosaur> then when you scroll stuff off the screen, your status area stays put and only the scrolling region enters the terminal scrollback
2022-06-28 00:01:10 +0000Jon(jon@dow.land)
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2022-06-28 00:01:43 +0000 <geekosaur> the save/restore I mentioned is just so you don't have to figure out where the cursor is before switching over to the status area if you need to update that
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2022-06-28 00:02:13 +0000 <geekosaur> <ESC>7 will remember the cursor position and attributes etc., and <ESC>8 will restore them after you're done
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2022-06-28 00:11:51 +0000 <maralorn> Huh, crazy.
2022-06-28 00:11:56 +0000redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-170-36-30.mycingular.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-06-28 00:12:15 +0000pseigo(~pseigo@node-1w7jr9ye7hx4fsjarlsl1lkjw.ipv6.telus.net)
2022-06-28 00:13:28 +0000 <maralorn> Can you tell if the commands I wanna issue are available from the ansi-terminal package? Alternatively can you recommend some docs on this? Your advice is not completely actionable for me right now.^^
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2022-06-28 00:16:14 +0000 <geekosaur> I was reading from the VT102 manual when I wrote that, to make sure my memory was correct. I don't know off the top of my head if ansi-terminal directly supports either scroll region or save/restore cursor
2022-06-28 00:16:22 +0000johnsoar(~arj0019@162.218.254.7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-28 00:16:25 +0000 <geekosaur> (I'd be surprised if it didn't suppot scroll region though)
2022-06-28 00:16:40 +0000geekosaureyes matrix gateway
2022-06-28 00:16:51 +0000ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
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2022-06-28 00:17:16 +0000 <EvanR> matrix is the future
2022-06-28 00:17:21 +0000zzztin
2022-06-28 00:17:24 +0000 <EvanR> the future is intermittent
2022-06-28 00:17:25 +0000tinyin
2022-06-28 00:17:52 +0000waleee(~waleee@h-158-174-22-25.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2022-06-28 00:19:41 +0000kosmikus[m](~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d)
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2022-06-28 00:20:03 +0000ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-28 00:20:17 +0000 <geekosaur> hm, it supports save/restore but I don't see anything for scroll region
2022-06-28 00:21:05 +0000frost(~frost@user/frost)
2022-06-28 00:25:39 +0000 <sm> can https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output work here ?
2022-06-28 00:26:29 +0000DGMrKong(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-28 00:26:30 +0000ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-28 00:26:38 +0000 <sm> if not, there's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal-game plus implementing your own scroll buffer
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2022-06-28 00:29:02 +0000 <geekosaur> interesting that my matrix account is receiving but neither visible here nor able to send
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2022-06-28 00:30:35 +0000 <geekosaur> oh, no, only from sm who's still on both. pfeh
2022-06-28 00:31:12 +0000 <maralorn> sm: Seeing that my program already works and I am just looking for potential performance improvements I don‘t think that implementing my own scrollbuffer is worth it.
2022-06-28 00:31:32 +0000geekosauris not above simply outputting escape sequences
2022-06-28 00:31:38 +0000 <sm> ah, carry on then
2022-06-28 00:31:56 +0000 <geekosaur> in fact my test program to verify the scroll lregion didn't interfere with backscroll did just that
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2022-06-28 00:34:11 +0000 <geekosaur> \x1b[1;16r\x1b\&7\x1b[18;18H--- STATUS REGION ---\x1b\&8 then I had it do ls -l /usr/bin
2022-06-28 00:34:13 +0000VarikValefor[m](~varikvale@2001:470:69fc:105::a5d)
2022-06-28 00:34:39 +0000 <geekosaur> the status region stayed put, the ls scrolled in the right area and was correctly caught in scrollback
2022-06-28 00:36:00 +0000janschneider[m](~janschnei@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7625)
2022-06-28 00:36:38 +0000SridharRatnakuma(~sridmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1c2)
2022-06-28 00:37:46 +0000 <maralorn> sm: But the ConsoleRegion stuff looks promising.
2022-06-28 00:38:07 +0000lambda451[m](~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097)
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2022-06-28 01:47:15 +0000 <maralorn> maerwald: I remember you told me something about a terminal printing library that you had a bad experience with. Was that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output ?
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2022-06-28 02:03:21 +0000 <maralorn> Oh, no! In the end concurrent-output also clears the complete status region, writes the log and writes the status region again. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output-1.10.16/docs/src/System.Console.Regions.html…
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2022-06-28 02:04:53 +0000 <maralorn> It only does smart things to avoid redraws when we don‘t print new log lines. But it also looks like a lot of overhead to me, so not sure if it’s worth it.
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2022-06-28 03:48:10 +0000 <[Leary]> @tell fizbin When it says "applicative functors", it's loosely referring to the arbitrary applicative functor parameter `f`. It should perhaps just be "A monoid on @f@." The key detail is that parametricity in `a` forces the monoid to be entirely on the structure of `f`, independent of `a`. This implies nice properties like `fmap g` distributing over `<|>`. And imo, if there's another sane choice of Monoid for `f a`, it shouldn't be the
2022-06-28 03:48:10 +0000 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2022-06-28 03:48:10 +0000 <[Leary]> same as the Alternative on `f`; that's just waste in redundancy.
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2022-06-28 03:56:17 +0000 <[Leary]> It's also worth noting that there's already a monoid on `f`, as implied by it having Applicative, so Alternative is indeed "an alternative monoid on f".
2022-06-28 03:56:21 +0000perrierjouet(~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
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2022-06-28 03:57:05 +0000 <[Leary]> Though I don't think that's where the name comes from.
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2022-06-28 08:20:55 +0000gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst)
2022-06-28 08:21:39 +0000 <gensyst> After I write putStr something is there a way to "go back" and find out the last couple of characters that were output in the past?
2022-06-28 08:24:48 +0000Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-06-28 08:27:39 +0000 <lortabac> gensyst: no, you have to implement your own alternative IO with this capability
2022-06-28 08:27:51 +0000 <sm> I don't think so gensyst , you'd have to keep that history yourself
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2022-06-28 08:57:59 +0000 <gensyst> thanks mates
2022-06-28 08:58:39 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-97.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2022-06-28 09:18:15 +0000`2jt(~jtomas@141.red-88-17-65.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
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2022-06-28 09:20:04 +0000mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-06-28 09:20:06 +0000 <`2jt> Hi, I'm constructing aeson object with `object` and every pair value is a string. However, I must wrap each of it into ("key" .= ("some value" :: T.Text)). Is there a way to make the compiler make this decision automatically?
2022-06-28 09:22:44 +0000malte(~malte@mal.tc)
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2022-06-28 09:30:47 +0000christiansen(~christian@83-95-137-75-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-06-28 09:31:05 +0000 <aforemny> `2jt: as the second argument of (.=) is a constrained type variable, i don't think it is possible. you have to specify its type, as `"some value"` can be of any type that implements the `IsString` type class
2022-06-28 09:31:05 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-28 09:31:15 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@ip214-130-173-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
2022-06-28 09:31:19 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace)
2022-06-28 09:31:53 +0000 <lyxia> you could define a specialized version of it
2022-06-28 09:31:56 +0000liz(~liz@host86-159-158-175.range86-159.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2022-06-28 09:32:17 +0000 <aforemny> `2jt: you can probably define a helper function `stringField :: KeyValue kv => Key -> T.Text -> kv` or something
2022-06-28 09:32:53 +0000Polo(~Gambino@user/polo)
2022-06-28 09:36:13 +0000 <`2jt> thank you guys
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2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000jean-paul[m](~jean-paul@2001:470:69fc:105::d1ab) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000Yehoshua(~yehoshua@2001:470:69fc:105::1:593f) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000Tisoxin(~ikosit@user/ikosit) (*.net *.split)
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2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000Artem[m](~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b) (*.net *.split)
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2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000psydroid(~psydroid@user/psydroid) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000fgaz(~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000DemiMarieObenour(~alwayscur@2001:470:69fc:105::4886) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:52:32 +0000sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 09:56:42 +0000Polo(~Gambino@user/polo) (Killed (platinum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2022-06-28 09:56:53 +0000 <carbolymer> what was the name of `~` ? type equality?
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2022-06-28 10:03:15 +0000 <pavonia> carbolymer: Yes
2022-06-28 10:03:41 +0000 <carbolymer> pavonia: where can I read more on that? I don't know when I need type equality
2022-06-28 10:04:19 +0000siraben(~siraben@user/siraben) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2022-06-28 10:05:05 +0000 <pavonia> When you want to give a hint to the compiler where types are/should be equal
2022-06-28 10:05:26 +0000Guillaum[m](~guiboumat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:72ac) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-06-28 10:05:26 +0000DemiMarieObenour(~alwayscur@2001:470:69fc:105::4886) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-06-28 10:05:52 +0000jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
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2022-06-28 10:07:06 +0000 <pavonia> It's usually necessary with type families of the form `Fam a ~ b` to indicate that the result of applying Fam to a should result in b
2022-06-28 10:07:46 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-06-28 10:08:05 +0000 <carbolymer> and why not `Fam b => b` ?
2022-06-28 10:08:38 +0000mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-06-28 10:09:07 +0000 <pavonia> I guess that would only work if Fam b would result in a type constraint again
2022-06-28 10:09:08 +0000raym(~raym@user/raym) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-28 10:09:22 +0000 <pavonia> or would be a type class in the first place
2022-06-28 10:09:53 +0000rodental(~rodental@38.146.5.222) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-28 10:11:49 +0000Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
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2022-06-28 10:13:13 +0000geekosaur[m](~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-06-28 10:14:19 +0000 <pavonia> carbolymer: e.g. consider `foo :: Fam a ~ Int => a -> Int`. We don't care what `a` is in this case, but we make sure that the result of `a` applied to type family `Fam` results in an Int
2022-06-28 10:14:49 +0000 <carbolymer> oooh
2022-06-28 10:14:54 +0000 <carbolymer> now it's clear
2022-06-28 10:15:00 +0000 <carbolymer> pavonia: thanks
2022-06-28 10:15:07 +0000 <pavonia> No problem
2022-06-28 10:15:19 +0000 <jackdk> `2jt: turn off `{-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-}` (frustrating, but it means that the sting literal must be `[Char]` and then instance selection becomes unambiguous) or (the idiom I usually use `foo .= String "bar"` (as the data constructor `String :: Text -> Value` gives GHC enough info to solve)
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2022-06-28 10:19:57 +0000 <aforemny> jackdk: i don't see how turning off overloaded strings helps because there is no `ToJson String` instance, and `String "bar"` should work in presence of overloaded strings as well
2022-06-28 10:21:05 +0000raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2022-06-28 10:22:29 +0000 <aforemny> jackdk: the `String : Text -> Value` is a good point though! one might also use `T.pack : String -> Text`
2022-06-28 10:23:39 +0000 <jackdk> aforemny: Via `instance ToJSON Char` and `instance ToJSON a => ToJSON [a]`; note that `class ToJSON` has a `toJSONList :: [a] -> Value` method
2022-06-28 10:23:53 +0000 <jackdk> aforemny: You are correct that the `String` trick does not require disabling `-XOverloadedStrings`
2022-06-28 10:23:54 +0000Nate[m](~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a)
2022-06-28 10:23:56 +0000ereslibre[m](~ereslibre@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8f90)
2022-06-28 10:24:07 +0000 <jackdk> % toJSON "Hello"
2022-06-28 10:24:07 +0000 <yahb2> <interactive>:60:1: error: ; Variable not in scope: toJSON :: [Char] -> t
2022-06-28 10:24:11 +0000polo(~Gambino@user/polo)
2022-06-28 10:24:13 +0000 <jackdk> % :m + Data.Aeson
2022-06-28 10:24:13 +0000 <yahb2> <no location info>: error: ; Could not find module ‘Data.Aeson’ ; Perhaps you meant Data.Version (from base-4.14.3.0)
2022-06-28 10:24:18 +0000 <jackdk> ah well
2022-06-28 10:24:44 +0000doomfume[m](~doomfumeh@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a62)
2022-06-28 10:24:58 +0000 <jackdk> aforemny: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cw0O2Lkw/toJSON-string.txt
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2022-06-28 10:31:17 +0000 <aforemny> jackdk: oh, then it does make sense to drop overloaded strings. my bad! i cannot find the `ToJSON String` instance and thought it would not follow from `ToJSON Char` and `ToJSON a => ToJSON [a]`..
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2022-06-28 10:32:11 +0000 <jackdk> Yeah I could be wrong that it doesn't need both instances; it might just be using `toJSONList @Char`
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2022-06-28 10:50:53 +0000 <dminuoso> Disabling aeson instances via cabal flags. Is this a good idea?
2022-06-28 10:51:30 +0000 <dminuoso> That is, they would be enabled by default, but in case you dont want to drag in aeson, you could disable it via a flag. While it cant be placed in the .cabal file, at least individual projects can reduce dependency footprint.
2022-06-28 10:51:47 +0000 <dminuoso> maerwald: I know you have some strong feelings about flags, how about this usage?
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2022-06-28 11:32:12 +0000 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: disabling API via flags doesn't break packages at least
2022-06-28 11:32:32 +0000 <maerwald[m]> If the default is really enabled
2022-06-28 11:35:31 +0000 <maerwald[m]> You'd still have to make sure your package compiles with the default flags if it's. The only pitfall could be imports I think
2022-06-28 11:35:51 +0000z0k(~z0k@206.84.143.59)
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2022-06-28 11:36:02 +0000 <maerwald[m]> When another package/import provides the disabled API
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2022-06-28 12:49:28 +0000 <carbolymer> Did you guys have any weird experiences with CMS GC (-xn) on GHC 8? It seems whenever I turn it on, our E2E tests start to failing randomly (and very rarely) in CI with "connection refused" errors (the server is in Haskell).
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2022-06-28 14:22:29 +0000DGMrKong(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-28 14:23:54 +0000 <DGMrKong> Did I accidentally fill this chat with IRC error messages all night? I just got back and my console is filled with them :(
2022-06-28 14:24:46 +0000 <geekosaur> no more than anyone else, from my backscroll
2022-06-28 14:24:53 +0000 <merijn> If you had someone would've probably kicked or quited you :p
2022-06-28 14:24:58 +0000 <merijn> *quieted
2022-06-28 14:25:46 +0000 <DGMrKong> yea, I guess they were client side errors. I have one every few seconds for the past 12 hours
2022-06-28 14:26:04 +0000 <DGMrKong> I should probably dc next time lol
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2022-06-28 14:27:03 +0000 <geekosaur> we have a log you can consult if you want to see what's been going on (check the /topic)
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2022-06-28 18:22:03 +0000 <Boarders__> could someone remind me how you pass a custom type of a library in haskell?
2022-06-28 18:22:26 +0000 <Boarders__> e.g. the ordered-keymap in aeson (I don't need this flag specifically, just want to know how you do it)
2022-06-28 18:23:41 +0000 <[exa]> "how you pass a custom type of a library" ... to where do you want to pass it?
2022-06-28 18:24:08 +0000 <Boarders__> sorry that was meant to read flag
2022-06-28 18:24:21 +0000 <merijn> Boarders__: from where?
2022-06-28 18:24:38 +0000 <merijn> Boarders__: Should just be -fflagname on the commandline
2022-06-28 18:25:05 +0000pseigo(~pseigo@d108-173-20-33.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-06-28 18:25:21 +0000 <[exa]> ah a flag, yes
2022-06-28 18:25:23 +0000 <Boarders__> so I could put -fordered-keymap in ghc-options in cabal?
2022-06-28 18:25:54 +0000 <geekosaur> it's not a ghc option, it's a Cabal option. stack and cabal have slightly different ways of doing it
2022-06-28 18:26:11 +0000 <[exa]> you may like constraints: as in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23523869/is-there-any-way-to-define-flags-for-cabal-dependenci…
2022-06-28 18:26:13 +0000Kevin578(~Kevin578@pool-173-76-179-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-28 18:27:16 +0000 <Boarders__> what is the cabal way of doing it?
2022-06-28 18:28:47 +0000 <geekosaur> the link [exa] gave you shows both stack and cabal ways
2022-06-28 18:28:54 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45f48.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-06-28 18:29:44 +0000 <[exa]> btw the answer "you cannot do this with cabal" is probably no longer valid there
2022-06-28 18:30:00 +0000 <geekosaur> it was once true, but then the cabal.project way was added
2022-06-28 18:30:16 +0000 <geekosaur> sadly a bunch of stackers think cabal's still on 1.24
2022-06-28 18:30:34 +0000 <[exa]> let's add a comment :]
2022-06-28 18:31:04 +0000 <geekosaur> one of the answres above that one already says this (that it used to be true but then cabal.project way was added)
2022-06-28 18:31:24 +0000 <geekosaur> possibly it should be downvoted though now that it's false
2022-06-28 18:31:45 +0000 <[exa]> well I can edit it
2022-06-28 18:32:07 +0000yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-28 18:32:09 +0000 <[exa]> ah no, but I can ask people to edit :]
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2022-06-28 18:34:25 +0000 <Boarders__> thanks for the help all
2022-06-28 18:35:15 +0000 <[exa]> yw :]
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2022-06-28 18:42:18 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> there is an exercise about red-black trees that I don't understand
2022-06-28 18:42:24 +0000`2jt(~jtomas@141.red-88-17-65.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2022-06-28 18:42:44 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> it's an exercise 3.10 (b) from "Purely functional data structures"
2022-06-28 18:43:24 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> (a) is about splitting the balance function to two: lbalance and rbalance
2022-06-28 18:43:57 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> (b) says:
2022-06-28 18:44:34 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> Extending the same logic one step further, one of the remaining tests on the grandchildren is also unnecessary. Rewrite "ins" so that it never tests the color of nodes not on the search path.
2022-06-28 18:45:18 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> here is a source code of RedBlackSet: https://imgur.com/a/oIlSxgf
2022-06-28 18:46:00 +0000mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-06-28 18:46:25 +0000 <shiraeeshi[m]> I can't find the unnecessary test, where is it?
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2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000Maxdamantus(~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000dfordivam1(~dfordivam@tk2-219-19469.vs.sakura.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000Fischmie1(~Fischmiep@user/Fischmiep) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000ian__(~ian@matrix.chaos.earth.li) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000sweater1(~sweater@206.81.18.26) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000hyiltiz_(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000zachel_(~zachel@user/zachel) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000Dorkside69(~dorkside@208.190.197.222) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000statusbot3(~statusbot@ec2-34-198-122-184.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000flukiluke(~m-7humut@2603:c023:c000:6c7e:8945:ad24:9113:a962) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000davean(~davean@davean.sciesnet.net) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000blades(~blades@204.48.29.163) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000drewolson(~drewolson@user/drewolson) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000nurupo(~nurupo.ga@user/nurupo) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:37 +0000yaroot(~yaroot@2409:12:ac0:2300:680e:dbff:fe1e:4953) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000bcmiller_(~bm3719@66.42.95.185) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000TimWolla(~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000bjobjo(~bjobjo@user/bjobjo) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000eax_(6ba2dd7b84@user/eax/x-8810663) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000ente(~daemon@inferno.barfooze.de) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000quintasan(~quassel@quintasan.pl) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000robertm(robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000dequbed(~dequbed@banana-new.kilobyte22.de) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000bwe(~bwe@2a01:4f8:1c1c:4878::2) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000Flow(~none@gentoo/developer/flow) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000h2t(~h2t@user/h2t) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000pjlsergeant(sid143467@id-143467.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000s4msung(anUIaa0rBw@user/s4msung) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000hook54321(sid149355@user/hook54321) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000hays(rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000taktoa[c](sid282096@2a03:5180:f::4:4df0) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000AndreasK(sid320732@2a03:5180:f:5::4:e4dc) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000bbhoss(sid18216@2a03:5180:f::4728) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000mrianbloom(sid350277@2a03:5180:f:3::5:5845) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000Hobbyboy(Hobbyboy@hobbyboy.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000tubogram44(~tubogram@user/tubogram) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:01:38 +0000superbil(~superbil@1-34-176-171.hinet-ip.hinet.net) (*.net *.split)
2022-06-28 20:03:05 +0000alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-06-28 20:04:53 +0000tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-06-28 20:08:23 +0000atwm(~atwm@81.28.193.19)
2022-06-28 20:09:13 +0000bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:11:34 +0000pseigo(~pseigo@d108-173-20-33.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-28 20:12:47 +0000inversed(~inversed@5.65.47.68)
2022-06-28 20:14:31 +0000shreyasminocha_(51fdc93eda@user/shreyasminocha)
2022-06-28 20:14:32 +0000Arsen_(arsen@managarm/dev/Arsen)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000glguy(x@libera/staff/glguy)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000raym(~raym@user/raym)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000kjak(~kjak@pool-108-31-68-111.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000lambda451[m](~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000marinelli[m](~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000shiraeeshi[m](~shiraeesh@2001:470:69fc:105::1:77)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jchia[m](~jchiamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::c50b)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000kosmikus[m](~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000geekosaur[m](~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000goran[m](~goranoour@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1b44)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000vladan[m](~vladanmat@2001:470:69fc:105::2:24df)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Etxeberrialex[m](~etxeberri@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ae6)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000steshaw[m](~steshawma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:a963)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000ereslibre[m](~ereslibre@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8f90)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000vbeatrice[m](~vbeatrice@2001:470:69fc:105::3ebf)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Clinton[m](~clintonme@2001:470:69fc:105::2:31d4)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000polykernel[m](~polykerne@user/polykernel)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000hochata(~hochata@user/hochata)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Nate[m](~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000amesgen[m](~amesgenm]@2001:470:69fc:105::82b)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000coltenwebb[m](~coltenweb@2001:470:69fc:105::2:17c7)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000baaash[m](~baaashmat@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1e90)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000boxscape(~boxscape@user/boxscape)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000luke-clifton[m](~luke-clif@2001:470:69fc:105::2:3122)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000cdsmith(~cdsmithma@2001:470:69fc:105::284)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Player-205[m](~sashaserp@2001:470:69fc:105::2:30b8)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000unclechu(~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000lyiriyah[m](~lyiriyahm@2001:470:69fc:105::cc0)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Artem[m](~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000SridharRatnakuma(~sridmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1c2)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Bulby[m](~bulbyvrma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:fe0a)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Tisoxin(~ikosit@user/ikosit)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Orbstheorem(~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Tubo[m](~tubogram@user/tubogram)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000doomfume[m]1(~doomfumem@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a64)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000doomfume[m](~doomfumeh@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a62)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000bitonic(~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jean-paul[m](~jean-paul@2001:470:69fc:105::d1ab)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Las[m](~lasmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::74e)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000desklamp[m](~desklampm@2001:470:69fc:105::77b8)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000sibnull[m](~sibnullma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:1291)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Matthew|m(~arathorn@2001:470:69fc:105::1f)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jneira[m](~jneiramat@2001:470:69fc:105::d729)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Guillaum[m](~guiboumat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:72ac)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Deide(~deide@user/deide)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000steve[m](~stevetrou@2001:470:69fc:105::e0b)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000ormaaj(~ormaaj@user/ormaaj)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000JensPetersen[m](~juhp@2001:470:69fc:105::6e9)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000sjanssen(~sjanssenm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:61d8)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000romes[m](~romesmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1660)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000moats(~oats@user/oats)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000thewaves(~thewaves@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2eef)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jinsun_(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000maerwald[m](~maerwaldm@2001:470:69fc:105::1ee)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jmcantrell(~jmcantrel@user/jmcantrell)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000vaibhavsagar[m](~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000DemiMarieObenour(~alwayscur@2001:470:69fc:105::4886)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000fendor[m](~fendormat@2001:470:69fc:105::fcbd)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000janschneider[m](~janschnei@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7625)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000ManofLetters[m](~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000chreekat(~chreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000cony_mony[m](~conymonym@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2ea2)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000c_aprakasa[m](~caprakasa@2001:470:69fc:105::cfd6)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000smichel17[m](~smichel17@2001:470:69fc:105::2d32)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000july541[m](~july541ma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:e416)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000siraben(~siraben@user/siraben)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000ongy[m](~ongymatri@2001:470:69fc:105::5018)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000alexfmpe[m](~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Christoph[m](~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000psydroid(~psydroid@user/psydroid)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000zfnmxt(~zfnmxt@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Yehoshua(~yehoshua@2001:470:69fc:105::1:593f)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000reza[m](~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000maralorn(~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000ericson2314(~ericson23@2001:470:69fc:105::70c)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000VarikValefor[m](~varikvale@2001:470:69fc:105::a5d)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000peddie(~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000fgaz(~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000BusConscious(~martin@ip5f5bdf0d.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-97.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000YoungFrog(~youngfrog@2a02:a03f:c21b:f900:812e:6c05:83db:6853)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000matijja(~matijja@193.77.181.201)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a301:3d00:39df:1c4b:8a55:48d3)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000elkcl(~elkcl@broadband-37-110-156-162.ip.moscow.rt.ru)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1c:800:5c71:ba1b:727c:3afe)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000funsafe(~funsafe@2601:1c1:4200:9ac:84cb:185c:2a3c:c92c)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000edr(~edr@user/edr)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000koz(~koz@121.99.240.58)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000sayola1(~vekto@dslb-088-078-152-210.088.078.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Colere(~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000mtjm(~mutantmel@2604:a880:2:d0::208b:d001)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000koolazer(~koo@user/koolazer)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000marienz(marienz@libera/staff/marienz)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000adium(adium@user/adium)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000nerdypepper(~nerdypepp@user/nerdypepper)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000mcfrdy(~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000c_wraith(~c_wraith@adjoint.us)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000NemesisD(sid24071@id-24071.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000tomboy64(~tomboy64@user/tomboy64)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000tomgus1(~tomgus1@90.218.25.145)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000shapr(~user@2600:4040:2d31:7100:8013:8b59:ab30:ac29)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000teehemkay_(sid14792@id-14792.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000lambdabot(~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000totbwf(sid402332@id-402332.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000aristid(sid1599@id-1599.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000landonf(landonf@mac68k.info)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.206)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.160.206)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000yahb2(~yahb2@2a01:4f8:c0c:5c7b::2)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000madnight(~madnight@static.59.103.201.195.clients.your-server.de)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000polux(~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000lyxia(~lyxia@poisson.chat)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000fryguybob(~fryguybob@cpe-74-67-169-145.rochester.res.rr.com)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000conjunctive_(sid433686@id-433686.helmsley.irccloud.com)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000gregberns__(sid315709@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000eax_(6ba2dd7b84@user/eax/x-8810663)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000forell(~forell@user/forell)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000shinjipf(~shinjipf@2a02:c207:2082:6685::1)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000[_________](~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000andjjj23_(~irc@107.170.228.47)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000robbert-vdh(~robbert@robbertvanderhelm.nl)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000Adran(adran@botters/adran)
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2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000b20n(sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-06-28 20:14:45 +0000lightandlight(sid135476@2a03:5180:f:1::2:1134)
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2022-06-28 20:33:14 +0000Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
2022-06-28 20:33:40 +0000 <Haskelytic> fellas i'm wondering how you guys ensure typeclass laws are satisfied for your types?
2022-06-28 20:33:52 +0000 <Haskelytic> do you write tests?
2022-06-28 20:33:59 +0000 <Haskelytic> do you sit down and prove it by hand
2022-06-28 20:34:00 +0000mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-06-28 20:34:38 +0000 <Rembane> I write them and hope for the best.
2022-06-28 20:35:16 +0000mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-06-28 20:35:40 +0000 <monochrom> I proved simple ones by hand.
2022-06-28 20:36:00 +0000 <Haskelytic> Rembane: Feels-based programming needs to be a thing :)
2022-06-28 20:36:15 +0000 <Haskelytic> @monoch
2022-06-28 20:36:15 +0000 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2022-06-28 20:36:32 +0000 <Haskelytic> monochrom: For the non-trivial ones?
2022-06-28 20:36:43 +0000 <maerwald> Haskelytic https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers
2022-06-28 20:37:10 +0000 <Rembane> Haskelytic: Absolutely! :)
2022-06-28 20:37:18 +0000xf00b4r(~soukenka@104-217.internetbox.cz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-06-28 20:38:22 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.190.95)
2022-06-28 20:38:38 +0000 <monochrom> Some of the non-trivial ones are compositions of simple ones, and the compositions preserve laws.
2022-06-28 20:38:45 +0000 <Haskelytic> Rembane: I just googled "feels based programming" and found this https://github.com/kulics-works/feel
2022-06-28 20:39:01 +0000 <Rembane> Haskelytic: It's the future! :)
2022-06-28 20:39:10 +0000 <Haskelytic> maerwald: Oh damn I hadn't thought of checking lol...thanks!
2022-06-28 20:39:16 +0000 <monochrom> Some others are complicated encodings of trival ones.
2022-06-28 20:40:03 +0000 <Haskelytic> monochrom: Nice I forgot I could just build on top of simpler ones
2022-06-28 20:40:37 +0000 <Haskelytic> Rembane: Maybe someone should write a manifesto ;)
2022-06-28 20:41:30 +0000cyanide3dinner(~cyanide4d@106.201.249.151) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-28 20:42:39 +0000 <Rembane> Haskelytic: I think that's taking it too far, I prefer to code in the shadows. :)
2022-06-28 20:42:49 +0000Kevin578(~Kevin578@pool-173-76-179-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-28 20:42:51 +0000quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice)
2022-06-28 20:42:58 +0000 <Rembane> Haskelytic: BTW, if you want to have much fun you can write QuickCheck properties that check that your instances are lawful.
2022-06-28 20:45:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-06-28 20:45:22 +0000 <Haskelytic> Rembane: I'm gonna do that but I'm having trouble understanding how quickcheck does function arbitraries
2022-06-28 20:45:31 +0000 <Haskelytic> :/
2022-06-28 20:45:49 +0000 <Haskelytic> One at a time I suppose
2022-06-28 20:46:09 +0000 <Rembane> Haskelytic: Generating functions is always a bit messy.
2022-06-28 20:47:00 +0000alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-06-28 20:49:46 +0000 <Haskelytic> Yeah if only computation was simple
2022-06-28 20:50:47 +0000 <Haskelytic> This little bit of nugget in the quickcheck paper was very interesting for a noob like me
2022-06-28 20:51:44 +0000 <Haskelytic> they were like, we want Gen (a->b) which is Int -> Rand -> a -> b and rearrange "parameters" to get a -> Int -> Rand -> b = a -> Gen b
2022-06-28 20:51:52 +0000Polo(~Gambino@user/polo)
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2022-06-28 20:52:14 +0000 <Haskelytic> thinking with types feels like the magic of algebra all over again
2022-06-28 20:52:32 +0000tfeb(~tfb@88.98.95.237) (Quit: died)
2022-06-28 20:52:34 +0000 <Haskelytic> you just do these formal manipulations and voila, you're closer to a solution to your problem
2022-06-28 20:52:54 +0000 <Haskelytic> no need for brain cells :)
2022-06-28 20:53:04 +0000coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-06-28 20:53:15 +0000 <monochrom> This is why I am not fond of "understand and have intuition before doing it formally"
2022-06-28 20:53:20 +0000 <mrianbloom> Is there a large project that uses GADTs for an expression language?
2022-06-28 20:53:45 +0000 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Sometimes you do it formally first and then you see new understanding and intuition.
2022-06-28 20:53:55 +0000 <Rembane> monochrom: I thought you did algebra instead.
2022-06-28 20:53:58 +0000 <arj0019> on that topic, are there any good resources that demonstrate how to build complex type systems in Haskell? I find myself attempting to implement OOP features without realizing it.
2022-06-28 20:54:29 +0000yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
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2022-06-28 20:55:23 +0000 <arj0019> I did find a really good video on applying DSL for a trading card game. Still looking for more resources like that.
2022-06-28 20:55:41 +0000disco-dave[m](~disco-dav@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1892)
2022-06-28 20:56:13 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-28 20:56:18 +0000 <yin> cabal init doesnt let me create a project if one with the same name already exists in hackage?
2022-06-28 20:56:19 +0000 <EvanR> for a lot of common go-to "OOP features" there are good non-OOP functional replacements
2022-06-28 20:56:32 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace)
2022-06-28 20:56:49 +0000 <EvanR> for example implementation inheritance => first class functions or just, use functions
2022-06-28 20:58:22 +0000brettgilio(~brettgili@c9yh.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-28 20:58:39 +0000 <arj0019> EvanR: I completely agree. My trouble is not recognizing that some aspects of my domain concept are OO in nature.
2022-06-28 20:59:39 +0000 <monochrom> Easy translation between OO and FP: x.f <-> f x
2022-06-28 20:59:42 +0000yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-28 20:59:47 +0000 <arj0019> EvanR: I have not been able to find a good resource documenting the design process of a complex functional type system and DSL.
2022-06-28 21:00:24 +0000lottaquestions(~nick@S0106a84e3f794893.ca.shawcable.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-06-28 21:01:01 +0000 <EvanR> for a model complex functional type system which can be used with DSLs, as a starting point, there's simply typed lambda calculus xD
2022-06-28 21:01:56 +0000brettgilio(~brettgili@c9yh.net)
2022-06-28 21:02:09 +0000brettgilio(~brettgili@c9yh.net) (Client Quit)
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2022-06-28 21:03:09 +0000brettgilio(~brettgili@c9yh.net)
2022-06-28 21:03:14 +0000 <arj0019> for example, I have wanted to create the following: an interface `factor' that requires implementation of `rank' and `rate' that both operate on a list of datas
2022-06-28 21:03:56 +0000 <arj0019> each factor would implement `rate' and `rank' differently, and ideally I could combine factors with +, -, / to make a new factor
2022-06-28 21:04:16 +0000 <arj0019> I have no idea how to do this yet tho. It kinda smells like a monoid
2022-06-28 21:04:40 +0000 <monochrom> A field has + - /
2022-06-28 21:04:57 +0000lottaquestions(~nick@S0106a84e3f794893.ca.shawcable.net)
2022-06-28 21:05:08 +0000 <arj0019> i will add field to my research list
2022-06-28 21:05:24 +0000 <arj0019> this is `Algebra/Field'?
2022-06-28 21:05:26 +0000lottaquestions(~nick@S0106a84e3f794893.ca.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
2022-06-28 21:05:28 +0000 <monochrom> yes
2022-06-28 21:05:28 +0000 <arj0019> this is `Algebra.Field'?
2022-06-28 21:05:43 +0000lottaquestions(~nick@S0106a84e3f794893.ca.shawcable.net)
2022-06-28 21:06:02 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-28 21:06:45 +0000 <monochrom> We need not be formal about whether "Algebra/Field" or "Algebra.Field" is better.
2022-06-28 21:06:49 +0000 <EvanR> to implement the (not really OO) concept of a uniform interface that has many implementations, first try making a record of functions
2022-06-28 21:07:24 +0000 <EvanR> rather a record type corresponding to the interface, doesn't have to have all functions in it
2022-06-28 21:07:42 +0000alexhandy2(~trace@user/trace) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-06-28 21:08:02 +0000alexhandy(~trace@user/trace)
2022-06-28 21:08:17 +0000 <arj0019> EvanR: I understand record syntax and its implementation, but I do not see why to implement it for this purpose
2022-06-28 21:08:36 +0000 <EvanR> e.g. a field over a could have a zero::a, one::a, add::a -> a -> a, times::a -> a -> a, inverse :: a -> a
2022-06-28 21:08:37 +0000 <monochrom> An object is a record of functions.
2022-06-28 21:08:43 +0000Polomoney
2022-06-28 21:08:55 +0000 <EvanR> ok, too many `a's
2022-06-28 21:09:36 +0000 <monochrom> BTW GHC also translates "Ord a => ..." to "Record of Ord functions -> ..." too.
2022-06-28 21:09:36 +0000yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-28 21:10:08 +0000 <monochrom> So now both Java's notion of "interface" and Haskell's notion of "interface" are records of functions.
2022-06-28 21:10:28 +0000 <monochrom> There is some poetic justice in that.
2022-06-28 21:10:49 +0000 <EvanR> haskell is java from an alternate 90s timeline
2022-06-28 21:11:05 +0000 <Rembane> There are some examples on typeclasses vs record of functions here: https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/05/scrap-your-type-classes.html
2022-06-28 21:11:12 +0000 <monochrom> public class Ord where :)
2022-06-28 21:11:20 +0000 <Rembane> And some strong opinions too
2022-06-28 21:11:32 +0000 <arj0019> EvanR: how does this differ from using `instance'. IMO, `instance' may be better as it allows me to create some arbitrary thing and then just add on `rate' and `rank'
2022-06-28 21:11:46 +0000 <EvanR> it's similar but different, probably that link says more
2022-06-28 21:12:02 +0000 <EvanR> another good one is "type classes vs the world" (video)
2022-06-28 21:12:13 +0000 <arj0019> thank you for the refrences
2022-06-28 21:12:44 +0000 <arj0019> to be clear, you dont think my idea of implementing `instance' is crazy OO in this case?
2022-06-28 21:12:56 +0000 <monochrom> But Haskell classes adds a coherence benefit that manually passing around records doesn't have.
2022-06-28 21:13:05 +0000 <Rembane> arj0019: It is. Try not to.
2022-06-28 21:13:16 +0000 <EvanR> that's basically the difference, global coherence
2022-06-28 21:13:46 +0000 <Rembane> I wonder if the discussion on initial encoding vs final encoding would be enlightening or just confusing
2022-06-28 21:14:16 +0000 <dolio> That's not going to be helpful.
2022-06-28 21:14:28 +0000 <monochrom> I realized it when I taught students how do you express the type of a sorting function most polymorphically. It can't be "[a] -> [a]" but it can't be "[Int] -> [Int]" either.
2022-06-28 21:14:41 +0000 <arj0019> Rembane: can you expand on why you feel that way about my implementation of `instance', but potentially not the same for `EQ' or `Show'?
2022-06-28 21:15:12 +0000 <monochrom> I spontaneously came up with "like C's qsort but safer, I can always do (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]"
2022-06-28 21:15:28 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:a18e:bc95:1523:62c)
2022-06-28 21:15:31 +0000 <monochrom> Then the next thought was "oh wait so why do we need Ord again?"
2022-06-28 21:15:59 +0000 <monochrom> "Ah imagine I call BST insert then BST lookup but I give them different comparators by mistake"
2022-06-28 21:16:48 +0000`2jt(~jtomas@141.red-88-17-65.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-28 21:17:24 +0000 <Rembane> arj0019: Because Eq and Show are already there, they won't steer your thinking too much. But if you remove the typeclass tool from your toolbox until you've explored all the other tools it won't work as a shortcut to OO concepts.
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2022-06-28 21:21:16 +0000 <arj0019> Rembane: it is interesting that there is resistance to using `instance' when that is how you implement things like `EQ', `Show', or even something big like `Functor'. But like you said, those types already exist
2022-06-28 21:21:31 +0000 <arj0019> this will require a major rethink :(
2022-06-28 21:21:39 +0000 <dolio> There isn't resistance to using type classes.
2022-06-28 21:21:56 +0000 <dolio> There is resistance to just directly translating OO design into type classes.
2022-06-28 21:22:24 +0000 <monochrom> What is "`instance'"?
2022-06-28 21:22:43 +0000 <dolio> If you are just coming from OO programming, and prone to thinking that way, and just translate that into type classes, you will be developing habits that are considered bad.
2022-06-28 21:23:19 +0000 <monochrom> Also, Functor is not big, it has just one method.
2022-06-28 21:23:26 +0000 <Rembane> arj0019: OTOH, if you need polymorphism, typeclasses might be useful, but don't use them as the everything-looks-like-a-nail-hammer
2022-06-28 21:24:04 +0000 <dolio> Eq/Ord is actually rather unlike the equivalent OO design.
2022-06-28 21:24:05 +0000 <monochrom> "when all you have is acetone, everything looks like nail polish" :)
2022-06-28 21:24:26 +0000 <Rembane> Shiny! :D
2022-06-28 21:24:44 +0000 <monochrom> Now, "when all you have is superglue..." >:)
2022-06-28 21:24:49 +0000 <dolio> That is, it is like passing around a comparator object, not like having your types implement an 'Equatable' interface or something.
2022-06-28 21:26:02 +0000moneypolo
2022-06-28 21:27:09 +0000 <arj0019> dolio: I may not have been clear on my intentions. I want to create a `factor' (that is potentially a combination of `factor's) that will either `rate' or `rank' a list of datas
2022-06-28 21:27:41 +0000 <arj0019> or maybe it is better to say that the factor provides the functions used for rating and ranking
2022-06-28 21:27:52 +0000 <sclv> yin: correct
2022-06-28 21:28:16 +0000 <arj0019> either way, I think that I see the bad things more clearly now
2022-06-28 21:28:38 +0000Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
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2022-06-28 21:29:02 +0000 <dolio> To be honest, I don't find that description clear. :)
2022-06-28 21:29:21 +0000 <geekosaur> another useful thing to consider with respect to typeclasses is that it's strongly preferred that they have testable laws (typically they can't be part of the typeclass though). if you can't phrase reasonable laws for your typeclass, there's a decent chance that a typeclass is the wrong tool
2022-06-28 21:29:49 +0000 <dolio> But if you have learned something from the conversation, that's good. :)
2022-06-28 21:29:59 +0000 <Rembane> arj0019: I think you can have a great start by writing functions that do that and if you need to use those functions for more than one type you could put them in a typeclass. I think it's a good idea to keep the code as simple as possible for as long as possible.
2022-06-28 21:30:31 +0000 <geekosaur> Functor, for example, has laws such that there's either zero or one valid Functor for any type.
2022-06-28 21:30:49 +0000 <geekosaur> (also, if it's not keyed off a type, a typeclass isn't the right tool)
2022-06-28 21:31:48 +0000 <dolio> Yeah, that's also a good point. Preemptively overloading everything is not necessarily the right strategy.
2022-06-28 21:32:02 +0000 <monochrom> lambdabot has my quote about premature generalization, yeah
2022-06-28 21:33:13 +0000 <arj0019> my over all goal: given a list of datas, run some function that will return the datas ordered by best to worst (rate is the same, but has a non-constant scale for weighting). I would also like to create a way to combine multiple rate (or rank) functions to build a more complex analysis
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2022-06-28 21:34:07 +0000 <geekosaur> that doesn't sound like a typeclass, then, since your combined functions would use the same types as the uncombined ones. I'd go with record-of-functions and specify a way to compose them
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2022-06-28 21:34:52 +0000 <arj0019> geekosaur: your not the only one to reccomend that, so I will definately research it.
2022-06-28 21:35:46 +0000 <yin> sclv: has this always been the case or have i just been lucky?
2022-06-28 21:36:03 +0000 <sclv> been the case for a very long time
2022-06-28 21:36:11 +0000 <arj0019> Anyways, I don't want to take over the chat for too long so i am going to go do some research on your suggestions. ty
2022-06-28 21:36:25 +0000 <geekosaur> that's what the chat is here for 🙂
2022-06-28 21:37:08 +0000 <geekosaur> very long discussions may occasionally be redirected to e.g. #haskell-in-depth, if there's a lot of other stuff going on at the same time
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2022-06-28 22:15:02 +0000 <Psybur> How would you create a framework that expresses your business logic in pure code, possibly with its own dialect of SQL or SQL like DSL, and then implement each piece in multiple backends, that each have their own objects (DataFrames etc) and dialect of SQL?
2022-06-28 22:16:28 +0000 <ARJ0019> I have found this talk to be useful and relevant to the problem you are trying to solve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US8QG9I1XW0
2022-06-28 22:16:51 +0000 <ARJ0019> I would try to explain it myself, but I am still new to haskell
2022-06-28 22:17:16 +0000 <ARJ0019> the talk is not haskell specific, but it covers the concepts
2022-06-28 22:17:26 +0000Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se)
2022-06-28 22:18:30 +0000 <Psybur> thanks, watching
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2022-06-28 22:56:56 +0000 <EvanR> my bumbling path: OO concepts => forget OO concepts => learn algebraic concepts => go back and see what OO could look like algebraically => dust off the aftermath and see if anything useful remains of OO that's not just algebra
2022-06-28 22:58:40 +0000 <EvanR> shoot that convo is way in the past
2022-06-28 22:59:14 +0000king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688)
2022-06-28 23:00:11 +0000 <hpc> heh, i had the advantage of not learning the OO concepts "properly"
2022-06-28 23:01:31 +0000 <hpc> whenever i look at OOP design patterns now, i just keep thinking "that's just a function" about one pattern, and "that's just a function" about a completely different pattern
2022-06-28 23:02:56 +0000 <EvanR> "that would be just a function if we even had functions here"
2022-06-28 23:03:26 +0000 <EvanR> "if only I had a function"
2022-06-28 23:03:53 +0000 <dsal> I learned OO from "Object Oriented Software Construction" (Eiffel) and then tried to do stuff in Java which was philosophically completely opposite.
2022-06-28 23:04:35 +0000 <dsal> IN OOSC, you'd have methods that either let you get information from an object or altered the object, but never both. In java, you just changed all the things all the time.
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2022-06-28 23:08:56 +0000 <EvanR> sounds great on paper, then you get hit with stuff like... check if the file exists, if so, open it! (and before you manage to open it, the file is moved by someone else)
2022-06-28 23:10:02 +0000yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-06-28 23:10:17 +0000 <dsal> Sure, that's why you skip the first part.
2022-06-28 23:11:21 +0000 <EvanR> so "alter the object" could return information!
2022-06-28 23:12:59 +0000 <EvanR> I wonder what other arbitrary principles like those in eiffel there are
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2022-06-28 23:13:48 +0000 <EvanR> weird stuff like all expressions are referentially transparent
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2022-06-28 23:24:40 +0000 <yin> what does this mean?: ghc: can't find a package database at /home/yin/seis/dist-newstyle/packagedb/ghc-8.10.7
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2022-06-28 23:27:03 +0000 <yin> hm... nvm i think i get what i did wrong
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2022-06-28 23:33:08 +0000 <dsal> "alter the object" changes the state. You ask for the state separately. It's a similar concept to returning a record with a bunch of fields.
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