IRCBrowse

2021/07/28

2021-07-28 00:00:15 +0000 <lechner> now you are talking
2021-07-28 00:00:27 +0000 <lechner> that could be my first >>=
2021-07-28 00:01:17 +0000 <c_wraith> the haskell spec calls `x <- a` a statement in its grammar. Which is funny. Haskell has statements, but only inside of special expressions.
2021-07-28 00:01:34 +0000 <monochrom> do { mt <- getTool (tool config) tempdir; case mt of ... }
2021-07-28 00:02:07 +0000 <lechner> that's what i have now, and i'll probably keep it
2021-07-28 00:02:14 +0000 <lechner> just learning
2021-07-28 00:02:18 +0000 <dsal> Yeah, LambdaCase is occasionally nice.
2021-07-28 00:02:26 +0000 <dsal> Not using `do` is pretty often an improvement.
2021-07-28 00:02:27 +0000 <lechner> what a great language
2021-07-28 00:02:41 +0000 <lechner> what have i been doing all these years?
2021-07-28 00:03:22 +0000 <monochrom> I don't teach the do-notation in my class. This has improved student learning.
2021-07-28 00:03:35 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:03:50 +0000 <monochrom> You can bet that if you remove a cargo-culting opportunity you improve learning.
2021-07-28 00:03:54 +0000 <dsal> @don't do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 00:03:55 +0000 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-07-28 00:03:58 +0000 <dsal> @undo do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 00:03:58 +0000 <lambdabot> a >>= \ x -> f a
2021-07-28 00:04:29 +0000 <dsal> Isn't that just `f <$> a` ?
2021-07-28 00:04:57 +0000 <dsal> I need to take a break from computers for a bit.
2021-07-28 00:05:07 +0000 <monochrom> I take it that you mean "f x" not "f a"
2021-07-28 00:05:09 +0000 <Axman6> We definitely need toi add @don't to lambdabot
2021-07-28 00:05:30 +0000 <monochrom> Then, f <$> a = a >>= \x -> pure (f x)
2021-07-28 00:05:38 +0000 <monochrom> err, meant to bold "pure".
2021-07-28 00:05:43 +0000 <Axman6> lambdabot doesn't simplify expressions, it just removes syntax sugar
2021-07-28 00:06:18 +0000 <Axman6> would be nice if it could do ApplicativeDo too
2021-07-28 00:06:27 +0000 <dsal> Oh, yeah, I changed my mind part of the way through what I was doing.
2021-07-28 00:06:58 +0000 <Axman6> we could have @ado (and alias @muchado) to desugar ApplicativeDo
2021-07-28 00:07:11 +0000 <monochrom> Haha nice.
2021-07-28 00:07:13 +0000 <dsal> This is one of those things where you have to do it simply because the name is amazing.
2021-07-28 00:09:38 +0000 <monochrom> Likewise, earlier DigitalKiwi made a deeply insightful math joke "I heard that parallel lines actually do meet, but they are very discrete"
2021-07-28 00:10:18 +0000 <monochrom> That would be a great title or abstract or teaser for an introduction to finite projective geometry.
2021-07-28 00:10:41 +0000 <monochrom> in which parallel lines do meet (projective), and the space is discrete (hell, it's even finite).
2021-07-28 00:14:37 +0000argento(~argent0@168-227-96-53.ptr.westnet.com.ar)
2021-07-28 00:15:38 +0000 <lechner> Hi, why does that not give me stdout, please? (status, stdout, stderr) <- readProcessWithExitCode "git" ["-C", folder, "pull"] ""
2021-07-28 00:16:05 +0000 <Axman6> I don't understand the question
2021-07-28 00:16:46 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 00:16:56 +0000 <lechner> the string is empty
2021-07-28 00:17:30 +0000 <Axman6> maybe git doesn't think it needs to output anything
2021-07-28 00:17:58 +0000 <c_wraith> Maybe the output is on stderr
2021-07-28 00:17:59 +0000 <int-e> @. pl undo do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 00:17:59 +0000 <lambdabot> a >> f a
2021-07-28 00:18:28 +0000 <lechner> i am considering that it may suppress its output, but i'm tranlating old code
2021-07-28 00:18:30 +0000 <int-e> @. pl undo do { x <- a; f x }
2021-07-28 00:18:30 +0000 <lambdabot> f =<< a
2021-07-28 00:18:45 +0000 <monochrom> We shouldn't speculate.
2021-07-28 00:19:00 +0000 <c_wraith> fwiw, my version of git doesn't have a flag -C
2021-07-28 00:19:04 +0000 <int-e> (this is a rare case where @pl actually simplifies code)
2021-07-28 00:19:09 +0000 <c_wraith> in the pull operation, anyway
2021-07-28 00:19:19 +0000 <monochrom> We shouldn't encourage unclear informationless questions by speculating as though we owe them to it.
2021-07-28 00:19:25 +0000 <monochrom> err owe it to them.
2021-07-28 00:19:33 +0000 <c_wraith> So if I run that command, I get a usage explanation on stderr
2021-07-28 00:20:03 +0000 <lechner> c_wraith: i could use {cwd} from process, but the other one has been working on debian bullseye
2021-07-28 00:20:27 +0000 <c_wraith> that's probably the least interesting part of what I said
2021-07-28 00:20:36 +0000 <lechner> it also happens on clone (although again with -C)
2021-07-28 00:20:39 +0000 <Axman6> I would try running something like `echo foo` and make sure that works
2021-07-28 00:21:06 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:21:06 +0000 <lechner> okay i will. brb
2021-07-28 00:30:02 +0000berberman(~berberman@user/berberman)
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2021-07-28 00:32:35 +0000adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2021-07-28 00:42:18 +0000 <arkho> sclv, geekosaur, thank you for your advice. I think I've found what I'm looking for.
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2021-07-28 00:52:56 +0000nitrix(~nitrix@user/nitrix) (Quit: Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration)
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2021-07-28 00:58:20 +0000bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.tooting.irccloud.com)
2021-07-28 01:00:41 +0000 <Axman6> lechner: any luck?
2021-07-28 01:01:29 +0000jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-28 01:07:13 +0000alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.4) (Quit: alx741)
2021-07-28 01:08:00 +0000 <Axman6> monochrom: not teaching do notation is an interesting choice, and on reflection seems like an obvious thing to do. I think we didn't touch it for a while in the FP course, possibly until we had introduced IO or parsers
2021-07-28 01:08:33 +0000 <Axman6> teaching foo >>= \x ->\n bar >>= \y -> ... is clear enough I think. I like this choice
2021-07-28 01:10:39 +0000 <lechner> Axman6: yeah, Git is suppressing its output, or it's otherwise not being piped my way
2021-07-28 01:11:00 +0000 <Axman6> interesting.
2021-07-28 01:11:17 +0000 <lechner> i knew. haskell is alawys right
2021-07-28 01:11:26 +0000 <Axman6> withCreateProcess or something might be a better option
2021-07-28 01:11:41 +0000 <lechner> i need the exit status
2021-07-28 01:11:41 +0000 <Axman6> Haskell is sometimes Left
2021-07-28 01:12:16 +0000 <Axman6> ProcessHandle lets you wait on a process and get its exit code
2021-07-28 01:12:40 +0000 <Axman6> but I would be surprised if that's not just how `readProcessWithExitCode` is implemented
2021-07-28 01:12:58 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:527c:b500:2843:4b18:8f2c:3a0f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:13:11 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 01:14:02 +0000 <lechner> maybe the empty string on the input closes the handle on stdin?
2021-07-28 01:15:10 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:52b7:d000:f8bb:d399:bdf4:bf95)
2021-07-28 01:16:39 +0000 <lechner> my other implementation redirected to and from /dev/null, i think (Perl's IPC::Run3)
2021-07-28 01:17:44 +0000peterhil(~peterhil@mobile-access-b04815-181.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:18:59 +0000 <monochrom> From the reader's POV, reading from /dev/null is indistinguishable from reading from a closed pipe.
2021-07-28 01:20:06 +0000 <monochrom> And IIUC this git command doesn't abort just because stdin is an EOF.
2021-07-28 01:24:03 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-07-28 01:30:16 +0000neurocyte5(~neurocyte@212.232.90.146)
2021-07-28 01:30:16 +0000neurocyte5(~neurocyte@212.232.90.146) (Changing host)
2021-07-28 01:30:16 +0000neurocyte5(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte)
2021-07-28 01:32:59 +0000 <lechner> it's not aborting. there is no output
2021-07-28 01:33:34 +0000 <monochrom> Did "echo hello" give you output? Did you receive it?
2021-07-28 01:33:43 +0000 <lechner> yes
2021-07-28 01:33:55 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:33:55 +0000 <lechner> what about strict vs lazy? maybe git never reads
2021-07-28 01:33:56 +0000neurocyte(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:33:56 +0000neurocyte5neurocyte
2021-07-28 01:34:20 +0000 <dibblego> Axman6: we've used >>= a lot before do-notation and the first thing we show is a mechanical syntactic transformation
2021-07-28 01:34:26 +0000 <lechner> Perl would be lazy in this case
2021-07-28 01:34:44 +0000 <dibblego> we also show C# and Scala syntactic transformation
2021-07-28 01:34:52 +0000 <monochrom> If you want to test out where "git -C foo" sends its output. On unix, you can "git -C foo > thisfilehasstdour 2> thisfilehasstderr", then check the two files.
2021-07-28 01:35:15 +0000nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 01:35:20 +0000 <monochrom> On windows, please install virtualbox then install a unix inside virtualbox :)
2021-07-28 01:35:32 +0000 <monochrom> Or I guess WSL is good enough for this.
2021-07-28 01:36:07 +0000 <geekosaur> windows supports those redirects, at least in cmd.exe
2021-07-28 01:36:30 +0000 <monochrom> Poor windows gets no love from monochrom :)
2021-07-28 01:38:22 +0000 <geekosaur> and… isn't it git -C foo pull?
2021-07-28 01:38:32 +0000 <Axman6> Windows has enterprise support for the lack of love it receives
2021-07-28 01:38:51 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah I forgot the exact command. I used "foo" for generic placeholder.
2021-07-28 01:39:09 +0000 <monochrom> "make love not money" bwhahahaha
2021-07-28 01:46:14 +0000 <Axman6> Advertising for an art's degree?
2021-07-28 01:46:21 +0000 <Axman6> pew pew, shots fired!
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2021-07-28 02:08:37 +0000_73(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ()
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2021-07-28 02:19:39 +0000 <derelbenkoenig> howdy
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2021-07-28 02:26:48 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-07-28 02:29:55 +0000FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (mercury.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
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2021-07-28 02:30:28 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 02:30:44 +0000 <geekosaur> ohai
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2021-07-28 02:35:03 +0000 <robo_cuckoo> hello
2021-07-28 02:35:47 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
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2021-07-28 02:54:31 +0000 <zzz> aloha
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2021-07-28 03:02:31 +0000td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-200.citykom.de)
2021-07-28 03:03:19 +0000 <lechner> Hi, what's a good Haskell code formatter, please?
2021-07-28 03:06:03 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-07-28 03:06:40 +0000 <lechner> stylish-haskell?
2021-07-28 03:07:02 +0000 <dsal> I like it, but code formatting is somewhat controversial.
2021-07-28 03:07:39 +0000 <dsal> Ormolu is gaining popularity, but, imo makes code harder to read.
2021-07-28 03:07:45 +0000 <lechner> not in my case. any of them would do, i'm sure
2021-07-28 03:07:58 +0000 <lechner> what's wrong with ormulu?
2021-07-28 03:08:40 +0000 <dsal> They took some cues from elm to prioritize reading diffs over reading code
2021-07-28 03:08:44 +0000 <lechner> brittany?
2021-07-28 03:08:45 +0000cjb(~cjb@user/cjb)
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2021-07-28 03:08:56 +0000 <dsal> So you the up with taller, more whitespace rich code.
2021-07-28 03:09:29 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-07-28 03:09:40 +0000 <lechner> yeah, ormulu is probably not for me
2021-07-28 03:09:41 +0000 <dsal> It's not actually as bad add elm, but that's a terrible place to get inspiration if you want to read a simple function without scrolling.
2021-07-28 03:11:05 +0000 <dsal> Ormolu has at least one bug open for reducing some obnoxious line breaking, but the one I'm thinking of has been open as long as I've been aware of the project.
2021-07-28 03:11:46 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:15:12 +0000 <lechner> stylish doesn't break long lines
2021-07-28 03:18:33 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
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2021-07-28 03:27:02 +0000 <lechner> i went with hfmt
2021-07-28 03:27:27 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 03:28:27 +0000 <lechner> maybe not
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2021-07-28 03:34:22 +0000 <dsal> I use stylish-haskell some. It only occasionally does things that are offensive.
2021-07-28 03:35:27 +0000 <dsal> The results at least look a bit like haskell I see elsewhere. :) If your format is too different from stdlib, I don't think you're doing a good service to the community.
2021-07-28 03:35:44 +0000jushur(~human@user/jushur)
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2021-07-28 03:42:31 +0000 <lechner> hfmt says it uses stylish. the latter does not break long lines, which is where most of my problems are
2021-07-28 03:42:51 +0000 <lechner> but hfmt is dense.
2021-07-28 03:42:57 +0000 <siraben> ormolu is what I use and seems to be the most readable, tbh
2021-07-28 03:43:06 +0000 <siraben> stylish-haskell does some whacky things with indentation
2021-07-28 03:43:30 +0000raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:43:34 +0000 <lechner> as for hfmt, is it normal to use no blank lines in functions?
2021-07-28 03:44:24 +0000argento(~argent0@168-227-96-53.ptr.westnet.com.ar) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 03:46:57 +0000pe200012_(~pe200012@218.107.49.28)
2021-07-28 03:47:53 +0000 <dsal> This is definitely not an improvement in readability: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/EUKwWwKa/ormolu.png
2021-07-28 03:50:07 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 03:50:28 +0000 <dsal> It also did a lot of this kind of stuff: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DiODfgZI/mormolu.png
2021-07-28 03:50:43 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 03:51:06 +0000 <siraben> you can configure those, no?
2021-07-28 03:51:11 +0000 <dsal> Definitely not as bad as elm, which typically ~doubles the number of lines in a file, but it's not an improvement: 4 files changed, 1158 insertions(+), 969 deletions(-)
2021-07-28 03:51:38 +0000 <dsal> I thought the point that was that it wasn't configurable.
2021-07-28 03:51:59 +0000 <dsal> One of their stated goals: Implementing one “true” formatting style which admits no configuration.
2021-07-28 03:52:15 +0000dermato(~dermatobr@154.21.114.128) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-07-28 03:53:09 +0000 <dsal> That's why there's a whole fork just to allow something other than two space indentation. :)
2021-07-28 03:55:37 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 03:56:36 +0000 <dsal> both of these are about their "minimize diff" goals. I do not share that goal. I also know how to use my diff tools better than that.
2021-07-28 04:05:04 +0000 <monochrom> History is the dialectic class struggle between someone's idea of one true way and someone else's idea of one true way.
2021-07-28 04:05:38 +0000 <monochrom> Exterminate all humans.
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2021-07-28 04:20:40 +0000haltux(~haltux@a89-154-181-47.cpe.netcabo.pt)
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2021-07-28 04:21:23 +0000hgolden(~hgolden2@cpe-172-114-84-61.socal.res.rr.com)
2021-07-28 04:21:41 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192)
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2021-07-28 04:32:00 +0000 <lechner> According to #git, the Git commands suppress some normal output if stderr is not directed to a tty, for example.
2021-07-28 04:32:07 +0000thyriaen(~thyriaen@x4db77ea2.dyn.telefonica.de)
2021-07-28 04:33:46 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 04:33:52 +0000 <dsal> That's classic bad behavior. heh
2021-07-28 04:35:03 +0000derelict_(~derelict@user/derelict)
2021-07-28 04:37:00 +0000 <Axman6> ha, nailed it. thought it might be something like that
2021-07-28 04:37:17 +0000 <Axman6> make a tty, then read from that... (I don't know what I'm talking about)
2021-07-28 04:38:13 +0000 <lechner> it would be a pseudo terminal i think, but it's probably not worth the trouble
2021-07-28 04:38:37 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 04:39:07 +0000 <lechner> this would be my test program https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Check_output_device_is_a_terminal#Haskell
2021-07-28 04:40:39 +0000roboguy_(~roboguy_@2605:a601:ac0e:ae00:3db6:b926:dbf2:890a) ()
2021-07-28 04:41:23 +0000 <lechner> wow, it does that on 'push' too https://serverok.in/git-stdin-is-not-a-tty
2021-07-28 04:42:08 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-07-28 04:43:43 +0000 <Axman6> you could always call git with your app's stdin as its stdin right?
2021-07-28 04:45:49 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-07-28 04:58:21 +0000 <lechner> Axman6: it really isn't essential, but i think that's what my Perl program does. how would i do that in H please?
2021-07-28 04:59:53 +0000jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:00:06 +0000 <Axman6> anything that uses CreateProcesss can use `Inherit` for std_in, but that looks like the default
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2021-07-28 07:51:57 +0000deide[m]Deide
2021-07-28 08:06:30 +0000 <Arahael> lechner: It's somewhat poorly defined, but they do propose you use the 'porcelion' (sp?) commands directly instead.
2021-07-28 08:06:42 +0000 <Arahael> lechner: As opposed to the commands more intended for direct user interaction.
2021-07-28 08:08:25 +0000alecs(~alecs@151.55.187.98)
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2021-07-28 09:14:27 +0000jess(~jess@libera/staff/jess)
2021-07-28 09:14:54 +0000 <maerwald> anyone on mac 10.13?
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2021-07-28 11:48:32 +0000 <Arahael> That's... More than a few months old!
2021-07-28 11:49:07 +0000 <merijn> Arahael: What is?
2021-07-28 11:49:25 +0000 <Arahael> merijn: 10.13
2021-07-28 11:50:17 +0000 <Arahael> I was aluding to both that it's an old version, and that mac users are encouraged to upate to the latest all the time and often do so quite quickly.
2021-07-28 11:51:29 +0000Deide[m](~deidehalo@2001:470:69fc:105::c89a)
2021-07-28 11:51:30 +0000 <lechner> Arahael: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. scripts should use the "plumbing" commands for robustness? https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Internals-Plumbing-and-Porcelain
2021-07-28 11:52:24 +0000 <Arahael> lechner: Apoologies, you're quite right. The trouble is the visualisation. I keep thinking that the 'porcelien' bit is the part of the toilet you don't particularly want to sit on, you want to sit on the nice cushiony seat instead.
2021-07-28 11:52:51 +0000Arahaelnotes that the correct spelling seems to be "Porcelain".
2021-07-28 11:52:54 +0000 <merijn> The best way to use git is "don't" :p
2021-07-28 11:52:58 +0000 <Arahael> Ha.
2021-07-28 11:53:02 +0000 <davros> mercurial?
2021-07-28 11:54:26 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 11:54:41 +0000Guest83(~Guest83@217.155.19.23)
2021-07-28 11:55:01 +0000 <merijn> Mercurial has lots of problems too, but at least it's far more userfriendly/understandable/easier for most workflows that aren't "the linux kernel workflow" (i.e., most workflows)
2021-07-28 11:55:10 +0000 <lechner> darcs?
2021-07-28 11:55:37 +0000 <merijn> tbh, I'd rather see things like Fossil and Pijul take off, but those don't really have the support yet, so for now I stick to Mercurial
2021-07-28 11:56:12 +0000 <merijn> Mostly because all my coworkers are stockholmed into using git and Mercurial gives me a bidirectional git interface so at least *I* don't have to touch git :p
2021-07-28 11:58:00 +0000Obo(~roberto@70.pool90-171-81.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-07-28 11:59:24 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 11:59:33 +0000 <Arahael> merijn: Mercurial has perfect compatibility with git now?
2021-07-28 11:59:41 +0000 <merijn> Define "perfect"
2021-07-28 11:59:43 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-28 11:59:48 +0000 <Arahael> merijn: Without fault.
2021-07-28 12:00:11 +0000 <merijn> It works on every single repo without submodules that I've interacted with
2021-07-28 12:00:27 +0000 <merijn> submodules fuck things up, but then they also do that with git :p
2021-07-28 12:00:31 +0000 <Arahael> Ah, so doesn't work with submodules? (Which, honestly, are hacky, anyway)
2021-07-28 12:00:44 +0000 <merijn> I dunno how it handles octomerges, but then, I've never seen an octomerge in the wild
2021-07-28 12:00:59 +0000 <Arahael> octomerges are weird, I can't imagine doing them in the wild. Wouldn't want to.
2021-07-28 12:00:59 +0000jespada(~jespada@90.254.247.46)
2021-07-28 12:01:08 +0000 <Arahael> Just merge branches two at a time, like a sane person, I reckon.
2021-07-28 12:04:26 +0000 <merijn> The 2 main reasons I haven't switched to Pijul for some of my personal projects are: 1) don't have any CI solutions yet, 2) Nest has issue tracking, but I'd rather see some format of distributed issue tracking, so I don't get locked in like with github
2021-07-28 12:05:07 +0000jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34)
2021-07-28 12:05:45 +0000 <lechner> pijul looks good
2021-07-28 12:06:11 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:3948:b266:7c2d:ce0c)
2021-07-28 12:11:06 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
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2021-07-28 12:19:22 +0000 <maerwald> merijn: my main reason is that the main dev seems to have odd problem with open source and or licensing
2021-07-28 12:20:12 +0000 <lechner> maerwald: that's not good
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2021-07-28 12:49:16 +0000 <sergio812> Hi there!
2021-07-28 12:49:16 +0000 <sergio812> I wrote a function taking a list of non-negative integers and producing a list of lists of integers (i.e. "int_seq :: [Int] -> [[Int]]").
2021-07-28 12:49:17 +0000 <sergio812> To each integer in the input list corresponds a list of that exact size.
2021-07-28 12:49:17 +0000 <sergio812> Integers in the result form the increasing sequence of positive integers starting at 1.
2021-07-28 12:49:18 +0000 <sergio812> E.g.
2021-07-28 12:49:18 +0000 <sergio812> int_seq [3,2,1] -> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[6]]
2021-07-28 12:49:19 +0000 <sergio812> int_seq [1,2,3] -> [[1],[2,3],[4,5,6]]
2021-07-28 12:49:19 +0000 <sergio812> int_seq [3,0,2,7,5,1] -> [[1,2,3],[],[4,5],[6,7,8,9,10,11,12],[13,14,15,16,17],[18]]
2021-07-28 12:49:20 +0000 <sergio812> I have a solution that I find a bit terse and would like to have comment on it.
2021-07-28 12:49:20 +0000 <sergio812> Should I paste it here, or is there another place for such requests?
2021-07-28 12:49:24 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 12:50:11 +0000 <lechner> dpaste.org, maybe?
2021-07-28 12:50:59 +0000 <merijn> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/
2021-07-28 12:51:29 +0000jneira(~jneira@212.8.115.226) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 12:53:32 +0000 <sergio812> It's only 7 lines, wouldn't it be OK here?
2021-07-28 12:53:44 +0000 <Clint> no
2021-07-28 12:53:45 +0000 <maerwald> 3 is the general consensus
2021-07-28 12:54:11 +0000anandprabhu(~anandprab@193.138.218.160) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 12:54:17 +0000 <sergio812> ok
2021-07-28 12:54:37 +0000 <lechner> it's tough to browse history otherwise
2021-07-28 12:55:12 +0000 <dminuoso> Also, the network spam detection will disconnect you quite quickly if you send too many lines in short repetition.
2021-07-28 12:55:32 +0000 <dminuoso> Possibly followed by a ban :)
2021-07-28 12:56:08 +0000 <lechner> that's more his problem and not ours, though
2021-07-28 12:56:37 +0000 <sergio812> well, yes, it's mine, that's why I ask :-)
2021-07-28 12:56:59 +0000 <lechner> anyway, welcome! rowdy bunch
2021-07-28 13:01:08 +0000alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.4)
2021-07-28 13:01:49 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 13:01:55 +0000 <sergio812> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FIZYG5jH
2021-07-28 13:03:11 +0000 <sergio812> Sorry, missed a definition: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/L7uPK6XT
2021-07-28 13:05:47 +0000 <lechner> i'm too inexperienced to offer advice here, but that looks like two nested iterate's to me
2021-07-28 13:07:42 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 13:11:57 +0000 <sergio812> I realize now that fusing the "replicate" inside the "accum" function might have been a good idea (thereby getting rid of the call to "length")
2021-07-28 13:12:06 +0000 <sergio812> Which gives: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Ex6Lp1K6
2021-07-28 13:12:37 +0000 <sergio812> (But still not sure it's easy to grasp/read...)
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2021-07-28 14:23:09 +0000 <Axman6> sergio812: my solution, theree's probably some ways to remove the explicit recursion but I think this is clear:
2021-07-28 14:23:25 +0000 <Axman6> > let f [] = []; f xs = go xs [1..] where go [] _ = []; go (i:is) ns = let (l,r) = splitAt i ns in l : go is r in f [1,5,2,3,6,3]
2021-07-28 14:23:27 +0000 <lambdabot> [[1],[2,3,4,5,6],[7,8],[9,10,11],[12,13,14,15,16,17],[18,19,20]]
2021-07-28 14:23:56 +0000 <Axman6> there's also a fun implementation using the state monad now I think od it
2021-07-28 14:23:58 +0000 <Axman6> of*
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2021-07-28 14:38:26 +0000 <lechner> Hi, cabal-fmt replaced license: GPL-2.0-or-later with GPL-2.0 even though the cabal user guide states that the license names are from SPDX. Why is that, please? https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-license
2021-07-28 14:40:23 +0000 <lechner> my COPYING file includes the "or later" language
2021-07-28 14:40:56 +0000sergal(~sergal@fsf/member/ezra) (Quit: bye bye)
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2021-07-28 14:42:06 +0000 <merijn> Probably because the cabal-version of your cabal file is old?
2021-07-28 14:42:15 +0000 <merijn> What version does your cabal file list?
2021-07-28 14:43:30 +0000 <merijn> Note that (as your link states) the SPDX identifiers are only valid since 2.2
2021-07-28 14:43:33 +0000 <lechner> cabal-version: >=1.10
2021-07-28 14:44:20 +0000 <merijn> Right, so that's so ancient it still uses the old, wrong syntax :p
2021-07-28 14:44:44 +0000 <merijn> So you cannot use SPDX expressions until you move to a newer version
2021-07-28 14:44:46 +0000 <lechner> thanks! what's a good version, please?
2021-07-28 14:44:51 +0000 <sshine> 2.2? :P
2021-07-28 14:45:00 +0000 <merijn> 2.2/2.4 are a reasonable compromise
2021-07-28 14:45:11 +0000 <merijn> unless you specifically need newer features
2021-07-28 14:45:21 +0000 <sshine> merijn, so 0.9166666667?
2021-07-28 14:45:50 +0000 <merijn> lechner: Basically, the old "cabal-version" field (implied) that it talked about "version of the cabal tool" due to its ">=1.10" but that's a forward compat nightmare
2021-07-28 14:46:30 +0000 <merijn> lechner: As of 2.0 the cabal version refers to the version of the cabal spec used by the file (and cabal-version *must* be on the first line)
2021-07-28 14:47:39 +0000 <merijn> lechner: This allows the cabal spec to change the behaviour/syntax of fields without invalidating older files (i.e. "cabal-version: 2.0" will always have the same result, even if later versions of the spec use different semantics
2021-07-28 14:47:43 +0000 <merijn> )
2021-07-28 14:51:49 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2021-07-28 14:56:34 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-07-28 14:56:58 +0000 <maerwald> -or-later is a disaster anyway, don't use it
2021-07-28 14:57:29 +0000 <merijn> why?
2021-07-28 14:58:15 +0000 <maerwald> not sure that's even legally applicable... what does "or later" mean? Later known versions from the date of the license file creation? Last commit? "Known" versions? Future versions you don't know about?
2021-07-28 14:58:41 +0000 <merijn> Future versions of the GPL license you don't know about
2021-07-28 14:58:47 +0000 <merijn> It's pretty explicit about that
2021-07-28 14:58:50 +0000 <maerwald> that's probably the worst idea
2021-07-28 14:59:05 +0000 <merijn> How so?
2021-07-28 14:59:15 +0000 <maerwald> you give someone you don't know about a backdoor to relicensing your project
2021-07-28 15:00:01 +0000fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2021-07-28 15:00:11 +0000 <merijn> Well, how bad of an idea it is, is directly proportional to your faith/believe in the FSF and people behind the GPL
2021-07-28 15:00:30 +0000 <merijn> If that answer is "not a lot", then, yeah, don't use that
2021-07-28 15:01:00 +0000lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:3948:b266:7c2d:ce0c) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-07-28 15:01:30 +0000 <maerwald> I think even if you do trust them, it's still a bad idea
2021-07-28 15:01:31 +0000 <Clint> that is the default in many licenses
2021-07-28 15:01:52 +0000 <maerwald> 1. you don't know about future FSF board, 2. you don't know if they f* up a license
2021-07-28 15:02:14 +0000shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.144.80)
2021-07-28 15:02:31 +0000 <maerwald> licenses aren't right or wrong, they're tried in court... you can write a bad license
2021-07-28 15:02:38 +0000 <maerwald> with good intentions
2021-07-28 15:03:24 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 15:03:27 +0000zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 15:03:39 +0000 <Clint> and the risk you are trying to mitigate is what
2021-07-28 15:05:15 +0000 <maerwald> someone relicensing my project with a bad license
2021-07-28 15:06:31 +0000 <nshepperd> that can do that under popular licences, such as MIT
2021-07-28 15:06:45 +0000 <nshepperd> err, i can't write
2021-07-28 15:06:54 +0000 <nshepperd> they can do that under many popular licences
2021-07-28 15:07:46 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 15:07:52 +0000 <maerwald> so?
2021-07-28 15:08:30 +0000 <maerwald> if you don't care, use WTFPL
2021-07-28 15:08:46 +0000 <maerwald> or "-or-later" :)
2021-07-28 15:11:09 +0000Topsi(~Tobias@dyndsl-037-138-065-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
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2021-07-28 15:19:30 +0000 <sergio812> @Axman6: thanks for your version, which is indeed easier to grasp despite (or because?) the explicit recursion
2021-07-28 15:19:30 +0000 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-07-28 15:27:54 +0000hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-07-28 15:32:59 +0000 <Orbstheorem> Is `Data.Pool.Pool` thread-safe?
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2021-07-28 15:39:17 +0000 <monochrom> I don't even know about future self.
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2021-07-28 15:43:54 +0000 <monochrom> (This is beginning to look like an advertisement scene for BSD3 :) ) [transition from poker face to smiling face] This is why I chose BSD3, so that people in the future don't have to count on the future me for permission to do many very reasonable things. :)
2021-07-28 15:44:53 +0000 <monochrom> Leave a legacy and sweet memory. Choose BSD3.
2021-07-28 15:46:34 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 15:48:34 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-07-28 15:51:06 +0000 <maerwald> the linux kernel btw is GPL-2.0 only, because they think GPL-3.0 is trash
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2021-07-28 15:58:51 +0000Lycurgusprefers license freedom
2021-07-28 16:01:36 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 16:02:06 +0000Lycurgushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/License-free_software since it googles so poorly
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2021-07-28 16:03:12 +0000 <monochrom> "the software is technically copyrighted according to the Berne convention and as such is proprietary"
2021-07-28 16:03:22 +0000sajith(~sajith@user/sajith) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:03:30 +0000krjst(~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:03:49 +0000oats(~thomas@user/oats) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:03:54 +0000nonzen(~nonzen@user/nonzen) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:03:55 +0000heath(~heath@user/heath) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:04:13 +0000 <monochrom> I slap on a license because of that. I hope to increase the freedom from the uncertainty of "so what would monochrom actually permit?"
2021-07-28 16:04:16 +0000aravk(~aravk@user/aravk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:04:17 +0000jneira_(~jneira_@28.red-80-28-169.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:04:18 +0000energizer(~energizer@user/energizer) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:04:24 +0000wwalker(~wwalker@platinum.solid-constructs.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:04:25 +0000 <Lycurgus> a sweet technicality that for the free trader / worker
2021-07-28 16:04:30 +0000jolly(~jolly@208.180.97.158) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:05:27 +0000sajith(~sajith@user/sajith)
2021-07-28 16:05:57 +0000 <monochrom> s/slap on a license/slap on a highly permissive license/
2021-07-28 16:06:19 +0000sergio812(~sergio812@lfbn-ren-1-403-102.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 16:06:27 +0000krjst(~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001)
2021-07-28 16:06:39 +0000 <dolio> I imagine the point is that putting a permissive license on it permits the wrong organizations to do things with it.
2021-07-28 16:06:44 +0000nonzen(~nonzen@user/nonzen)
2021-07-28 16:07:16 +0000 <Lycurgus> that wasn't my point but it does get to the actual point
2021-07-28 16:07:43 +0000 <Lycurgus> which is that the whole deal is a vast time waster to be filed under clueless about the capitalism
2021-07-28 16:08:41 +0000slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent)
2021-07-28 16:08:52 +0000 <maerwald> license-free software is a great way for me to get in trouble
2021-07-28 16:08:56 +0000 <maerwald> so I won't use it
2021-07-28 16:08:58 +0000falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:09:18 +0000 <Lycurgus> with your employer?
2021-07-28 16:09:41 +0000 <maerwald> employer?
2021-07-28 16:09:46 +0000 <Lycurgus> (the trouble)
2021-07-28 16:10:05 +0000 <maerwald> with anyone
2021-07-28 16:10:09 +0000 <Lycurgus> i c
2021-07-28 16:10:27 +0000 <maerwald> suddenly the author changed his mind... now what :>
2021-07-28 16:10:55 +0000 <Lycurgus> you think that doesn't happen?
2021-07-28 16:10:58 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:11:13 +0000 <maerwald> ?
2021-07-28 16:11:20 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 16:11:45 +0000CyrusT[m](~cyrustcru@2001:470:69fc:105::306e)
2021-07-28 16:12:12 +0000 <Lycurgus> that the owning entity changes it's mind about a permissive or license of any kind. Is there no hs product with is not FOSS?
2021-07-28 16:12:30 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 16:12:42 +0000 <Lycurgus> *which is not
2021-07-28 16:12:51 +0000 <geekosaur> how would we know
2021-07-28 16:13:14 +0000oats(~thomas@user/oats)
2021-07-28 16:13:36 +0000energizer(~energizer@user/energizer)
2021-07-28 16:13:39 +0000rmoe(~rmoe@c-71-236-207-44.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 16:14:17 +0000jneira_(~jneira_@28.red-80-28-169.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2021-07-28 16:14:38 +0000 <Lycurgus> yeah there prolly is but it so violates the hs culural ethos thst you'd not publicize. Think i've seen such, in finance and what not
2021-07-28 16:15:27 +0000 <Lycurgus> in some cases secrecy is of the essence
2021-07-28 16:15:43 +0000wwalker(~wwalker@platinum.solid-constructs.com)
2021-07-28 16:15:43 +0000aravk(~aravk@user/aravk)
2021-07-28 16:16:23 +0000maerwaldstares at the wall
2021-07-28 16:17:03 +0000heath(~heath@user/heath)
2021-07-28 16:17:49 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at)
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2021-07-28 16:20:23 +0000werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-07-28 16:21:25 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 16:22:03 +0000drewefenwick[m](~drewefenw@2001:470:69fc:105::c8c4)
2021-07-28 16:23:00 +0000 <DigitalKiwi> "how compelling"
2021-07-28 16:23:21 +0000Kammao(~Kammao@188.27.130.202)
2021-07-28 16:24:17 +0000 <[exa]> maerwald: license-free software is basically unusuable, the "default" license in most of the world is "don't even think about reading this"
2021-07-28 16:24:58 +0000falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 16:25:02 +0000 <[exa]> (oh the discussion has more scrollback, let's scroll now... :D )
2021-07-28 16:25:30 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:26:06 +0000MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192)
2021-07-28 16:26:18 +0000 <dolio> You don't need a license to read something.
2021-07-28 16:26:58 +0000econo(uid147250@user/econo)
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2021-07-28 16:41:00 +0000 <ahri> hi, I was in here the other day asking for help tracking down a big memory leak. my problem is that despite having set up the RTS options and got a .hp file out, it's only capturing the first 5-15 seconds. the process is killed by the kernel after around 5 mins (after some user interaction)
2021-07-28 16:41:24 +0000fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2021-07-28 16:41:45 +0000 <ahri> I tried replicating this in another env and the memory didn't seem to spike as much, however I still get the oddly small .hp file
2021-07-28 16:42:02 +0000funsafe(~funsafe@2601:1c1:4200:938f:32aa:eb39:2110:e2ea) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:42:21 +0000 <ahri> I tried adding StrictData via default-extensions in the .cabal file, and this has not fixed the memory usage and subsequent killing of my process in my live env
2021-07-28 16:42:32 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:43:09 +0000 <ahri> it occurred to me that perhaps my profiling issues are due to compilation flags; the ones I'm using are: -static -optc-static -optl-static -optl-pthread
2021-07-28 16:44:50 +0000 <Lycurgus> what do you mean by "leak"?
2021-07-28 16:44:59 +0000 <ahri> it's been a while since I put this project together so I don't remember the specifics of why I'm using all of those flags, but I think they're probably all to do with wanting a statically linked binary to dump into an alpine docker container
2021-07-28 16:45:00 +0000 <c_wraith> profiling requires cost centers
2021-07-28 16:45:26 +0000 <ahri> I compiled the binary with "stack build --profile"
2021-07-28 16:45:35 +0000 <c_wraith> If you're not adding some manually, you should be asking the compiler to add them.
2021-07-28 16:45:35 +0000Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-28 16:46:02 +0000Lycurgussuspects introspection/reflection/examination of the source program is the way unless a FFI is involved
2021-07-28 16:46:28 +0000 <ahri> Lycurgus: I mean I'm not anticipating my webserver using 1TB of memory when loading a 2MB file, so I guess I messed something up fairly spectacularly!
2021-07-28 16:46:34 +0000berberman_(~berberman@user/berberman) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:46:35 +0000berberman(~berberman@user/berberman)
2021-07-28 16:46:43 +0000 <c_wraith> wait....
2021-07-28 16:46:45 +0000 <c_wraith> 1TB?
2021-07-28 16:46:53 +0000 <zzz> o.o
2021-07-28 16:46:57 +0000 <c_wraith> How are you getting that number?
2021-07-28 16:47:00 +0000 <ahri> htop
2021-07-28 16:47:06 +0000 <c_wraith> what column?
2021-07-28 16:47:13 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-07-28 16:47:26 +0000 <ahri> VIRT
2021-07-28 16:47:29 +0000 <c_wraith> ignore it
2021-07-28 16:47:31 +0000LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 16:47:45 +0000 <c_wraith> VIRT is meaningless with programs compiled by 64-bit GHC on linux
2021-07-28 16:48:06 +0000 <c_wraith> It always tells the OS to reserve 1TB at program startup
2021-07-28 16:48:16 +0000 <c_wraith> that doesn't mean it's *using* it
2021-07-28 16:48:16 +0000 <Lycurgus> yeah that surprised me too
2021-07-28 16:48:24 +0000 <ahri> oh, ok, that explains that then!
2021-07-28 16:48:35 +0000 <ahri> however my process is still being killed off
2021-07-28 16:48:36 +0000 <Lycurgus> the way ghc works they preallocate for the max
2021-07-28 16:48:51 +0000nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 16:48:51 +0000 <Lycurgus> welcome to static everything
2021-07-28 16:49:40 +0000 <c_wraith> It lets ghc create indepent slabs for every common object size
2021-07-28 16:49:41 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 16:49:49 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 16:50:03 +0000 <c_wraith> which is great for speeding up allocation and collection
2021-07-28 16:50:31 +0000 <lechner> the issue may just be an unbounded operation?
2021-07-28 16:50:37 +0000flounders_(~flounders@173.246.200.33) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 16:51:15 +0000 <c_wraith> so... if you watch the resident column, does it also explode?
2021-07-28 16:51:52 +0000Lycurgus(~juan@cpe-45-46-140-49.buffalo.res.rr.com) (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-07-28 16:52:12 +0000 <ahri> ok, well the MEM% column also climbs up from around 0% to 75% at which point it's killed and has an exit code of 137
2021-07-28 16:52:39 +0000 <c_wraith> Ok. Still sounds like a memory issue. Just one a 1TB memory issue. :)
2021-07-28 16:52:44 +0000 <c_wraith> *not a
2021-07-28 16:53:29 +0000 <ahri> yeah, the RES column shows it's climbing rapidly
2021-07-28 16:53:52 +0000 <ahri> still, the VIRT thing is good to know for the future!
2021-07-28 16:54:03 +0000zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a008:d600:18f2:3421:bac6:8f38) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2021-07-28 16:54:47 +0000jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45555.access.ecotel.net)
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2021-07-28 16:55:53 +0000 <ahri> so, about this issue with the .hp file only containing interesting info for the first few seconds - is that a known issue I've stumbled across?
2021-07-28 16:56:44 +0000 <c_wraith> I've never seen it, but I've also never had programs killed by the OOM killer.
2021-07-28 16:56:54 +0000 <ahri> tbh I was kind of excited to have a memory leak as I've been wanting to get a bit of knowledge of profiling in Haskell! but this has me stumped
2021-07-28 16:56:54 +0000 <c_wraith> Any chance you can ctrl-c it before it's killed?
2021-07-28 16:57:34 +0000 <c_wraith> I suspect file buffering might be causing problems
2021-07-28 16:58:15 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 16:59:41 +0000norias(~jaredm@c-98-219-195-163.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
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2021-07-28 17:01:18 +0000 <davean> ahri: Yah, so hp files aren't actively flushed, that would ruin performance. Theres a few options there, but actively killing it is the best one
2021-07-28 17:01:39 +0000 <davean> Termination flushes them, but before that, its whenever the buffer fills.
2021-07-28 17:04:05 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:05:05 +0000 <davean> ahri: Theres a few options here
2021-07-28 17:06:33 +0000 <davean> ahri: specificly, -l might help, that puts it in the event log
2021-07-28 17:08:17 +0000fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 17:08:41 +0000fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com)
2021-07-28 17:11:57 +0000 <ahri> I tried with "kill -INT procnumber" which did stop the process but I'm still left with a fairly small .hp file (8MB) and the last line is END_SAMPLE 7.766415 - which I'm taking to mean 7.8 seconds since when I render these into ps/svg files that's all I see
2021-07-28 17:13:08 +0000ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185) (Quit: Client closed)
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2021-07-28 17:15:57 +0000ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185)
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2021-07-28 17:16:39 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 17:16:59 +0000 <ahri> sorry, I was disconnected
2021-07-28 17:17:23 +0000 <ahri> last thing I said was: "I tried with "kill -INT procnumber" which did stop the process but I'm still left with a fairly small .hp file (8MB) and the last line is END_SAMPLE 7.766415 - which I'm taking to mean 7.8 seconds since when I render these into ps/svg files that's all I see"
2021-07-28 17:17:31 +0000 <ahri> - am I misreading this?
2021-07-28 17:18:36 +0000xaltsc(~xaltsc@user/xaltsc) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:18:49 +0000 <ahri> also, I've added -l and got a 9MB eventlog, along weith a 9MB .hp file, so I'll copy them over and see whether the eventlog recorded more
2021-07-28 17:19:16 +0000xaltsc(~xaltsc@user/xaltsc)
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2021-07-28 17:23:00 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:52b7:d000:7ca5:8534:c427:2a37)
2021-07-28 17:23:57 +0000 <ahri> I'm currently installing threadscope so I can load up the file so I don't yet know how much data I got from this run
2021-07-28 17:26:48 +0000hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:27:26 +0000sergal(~ezra@fsf/member/ezra)
2021-07-28 17:27:26 +0000 <zzz> imagine i want to abstract flip to a class Flippable. how would i write an Arrow instance'
2021-07-28 17:27:29 +0000 <zzz> ?
2021-07-28 17:28:15 +0000 <zzz> and how would i write a (->) instance?
2021-07-28 17:28:38 +0000hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net)
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2021-07-28 17:31:36 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 17:32:15 +0000 <zzz> i might have phrased this weirdly
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2021-07-28 17:45:34 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 17:45:45 +0000 <jay-invariant> zzz: you mean you want something like flip :: Flippable f => (a `f` (b `f` c)) -> (b `f` (a `f` c)) ?
2021-07-28 17:45:48 +0000drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 17:46:07 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 17:46:26 +0000 <zzz> i think so
2021-07-28 17:47:32 +0000 <jay-invariant> For (->), I think you could just use instance Flippable (->) where flip = Data.Function.flip
2021-07-28 17:47:59 +0000 <zzz> yeah i was trying to avoid that. im exploring the language for educational purposed
2021-07-28 17:48:07 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-07-28 17:48:10 +0000 <zzz> *purposes
2021-07-28 17:49:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 17:50:02 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 17:50:34 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Quit: quit)
2021-07-28 17:50:46 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:52:24 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2021-07-28 17:52:33 +0000 <jay-invariant> Do you mean you'd rather not use the built-in flip? Then it's flip f x y = f y x
2021-07-28 17:53:08 +0000 <jay-invariant> and what do you mean by arrow instance?
2021-07-28 17:54:30 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-07-28 17:56:22 +0000jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a448-48bd-1-dcd-52b3-4d0e-bb70.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:59:23 +0000sergal(~sergal@fsf/member/ezra)
2021-07-28 18:00:22 +0000jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a448-48bd-1-3852-3dc5-540b-b540.fixed6.kpn.net)
2021-07-28 18:01:03 +0000 <boxscape> Is there a way to define a class and an instance on the same line? I'm trying to define a class and instance together in a CPP macro (I know) and they can't produce newline :(
2021-07-28 18:01:54 +0000 <geekosaur> semicolon?
2021-07-28 18:02:10 +0000 <boxscape> I played around with that a bit but couldn't find a configuration that works
2021-07-28 18:02:16 +0000 <dminuoso> I had the same experience
2021-07-28 18:02:25 +0000 <boxscape> (unless perhaps I used semicolons for the entire module, but I don't want to do that)
2021-07-28 18:02:28 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape: I couldnt get it to work either, and ended up writing two macros.
2021-07-28 18:02:44 +0000 <boxscape> hm, okay, thanks
2021-07-28 18:02:49 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 18:03:24 +0000lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus)
2021-07-28 18:03:48 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:37 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 18:06:45 +0000 <boxscape> geekosaur: dminuoso : wait semicolon actually does work
2021-07-28 18:06:57 +0000 <boxscape> I surrounded it with braces as well, which didn't work, but semicolon alone is fine
2021-07-28 18:06:58 +0000 <boxscape> nice
2021-07-28 18:07:15 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:07:26 +0000 <boxscape> I think you also need to surround the where block in {}
2021-07-28 18:07:32 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 18:07:58 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-07-28 18:09:25 +0000 <ahri> davean: I have my eventlog loaded up in threadscope but I can't see how to use it to work out where the memory allocations are occurring - I've searched around a bit for info on how to do this and most places talk about the .hp files for analysing memory usage. do you have any pointers?
2021-07-28 18:09:49 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape: Ah. Good to know.
2021-07-28 18:09:56 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape: Can you show an example?
2021-07-28 18:10:28 +0000drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:12:36 +0000 <boxscape> dminuoso: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/arDZGLKW
2021-07-28 18:12:44 +0000 <lbseale> Hi, could you guys help me understand why this Validation type is not a Monad? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validation-1.1.1
2021-07-28 18:13:47 +0000qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@user/qrpnxz) (Quit: Gateway shutdown)
2021-07-28 18:13:57 +0000 <zzz> jay-invariant: ignore the "arrow instance" bit. what i want is a (->) instance
2021-07-28 18:14:03 +0000qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@user/qrpnxz)
2021-07-28 18:14:24 +0000boxscape_(~boxscape_@p4ff0b769.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-07-28 18:15:46 +0000 <jay-invariant> lbseale: It looks like if there are multiple errors in a computation, it accumulates them, rather than returning the first one. So e.g. (Failure e1) <*> (Failure e2) = Failure (e1 <> e2)
2021-07-28 18:16:02 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at)
2021-07-28 18:16:27 +0000 <lbseale> jay-invariant right, what about that behavior makes it not a Monad ?
2021-07-28 18:16:53 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 18:16:55 +0000 <ahri> davean: nm, I've discovered eventlog2html which seems like it might help - I'll carry on on my own for a while and see what I learn. thanks for your help!
2021-07-28 18:17:01 +0000ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185) (Quit: gtg)
2021-07-28 18:17:12 +0000zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2021-07-28 18:17:13 +0000 <jay-invariant> If it were a monad, then how would you implement f >>= g? If f returns an error, you can't run g, since you have no input to feed it.
2021-07-28 18:17:22 +0000 <jay-invariant> So you would have to sequence errors.
2021-07-28 18:17:37 +0000 <jay-invariant> But then the laws about how >>= relates to <*> couldn't be satisfied
2021-07-28 18:18:04 +0000kilolympus(~kilolympu@cpc92710-cmbg20-2-0-cust265.5-4.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-28 18:18:04 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-07-28 18:18:46 +0000 <lbseale> what are the laws relating >>= to <*> ? Is it explained in this SO post https://stackoverflow.com/a/63346617
2021-07-28 18:19:37 +0000 <jay-invariant> Yeah, that equation is what I'm talking about
2021-07-28 18:19:56 +0000 <lbseale> I have to sit with this equation and think about it
2021-07-28 18:20:18 +0000zgrep(~zgrep@user/zgrep) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:20:34 +0000zgrep(~zgrep@user/zgrep)
2021-07-28 18:21:13 +0000burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 18:21:33 +0000 <jay-invariant> It might be easier in do notation: u <*> v = do { f <- u; x <- v; pure (f x) }
2021-07-28 18:22:01 +0000 <jay-invariant> Basically, "u <*> v should be equivalent to running u, then running v, then combining the results"
2021-07-28 18:22:38 +0000Deide1(~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:22:51 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape: Ahh, the {} are the trick. I see.
2021-07-28 18:22:58 +0000 <dminuoso> Did not even know they were syntactically valid there.
2021-07-28 18:23:00 +0000 <dminuoso> TIL.
2021-07-28 18:23:19 +0000 <boxscape> I think you can use them everywhere `where` occurs
2021-07-28 18:23:21 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 18:23:33 +0000 <jay-invariant> But the Applicative instance for Validate wants to be able to run u and v "in parallel", and combine the errors if there are multiple
2021-07-28 18:23:35 +0000 <boxscape> (and then some)
2021-07-28 18:23:40 +0000 <dminuoso> boxscape: I take that as a challenge. :-)
2021-07-28 18:23:45 +0000 <boxscape> hehe
2021-07-28 18:23:47 +0000 <monochrom> > let {} in 4
2021-07-28 18:23:49 +0000 <lambdabot> 4
2021-07-28 18:24:02 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:24:04 +0000 <monochrom> In my let-in example, you can also omit {}.
2021-07-28 18:24:44 +0000 <boxscape> > do let in 4
2021-07-28 18:24:46 +0000 <lambdabot> 4
2021-07-28 18:24:50 +0000 <lbseale> jay-invariant the "parallel" aspect is intuitive to me, so if you ran u and v "in parallel", and one returned an error, you would only get the error
2021-07-28 18:24:53 +0000 <boxscape> (emphatically telling someone that 4 is allowed to come in)
2021-07-28 18:25:10 +0000 <lbseale> there is no way to run them in parallel if one returns an error
2021-07-28 18:25:27 +0000Deide1(~Deide@217.155.19.23)
2021-07-28 18:26:28 +0000zyklotomic(~ethan@2604:a880:800:10::79f:8001)
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2021-07-28 18:31:14 +0000 <lbseale> ok this is helping me, thanks jay-invariant
2021-07-28 18:31:24 +0000 <jay-invariant> lbseale, no problem
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2021-07-28 18:46:55 +0000 <sshine> does anyone use ElasticSearch? it seems that the bloodhound packages has V1 and V5 support, but there's V6 and V7 in the wild. there's a stalled discussion on how to share data types to avoid copying across once more, but it's 2-3 years old.
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2021-07-28 18:53:57 +0000 <zyklotomic> what is a good data structure for a stack
2021-07-28 18:54:35 +0000 <pavonia> [a]
2021-07-28 18:54:36 +0000 <zyklotomic> i was considering lists, but it is in a strict State monad
2021-07-28 18:54:47 +0000 <zyklotomic> that ruins it slightly right
2021-07-28 18:54:59 +0000 <dolio> How?
2021-07-28 18:55:23 +0000 <zyklotomic> everytime i append, that would be O(n) if i understand correctly
2021-07-28 18:55:37 +0000 <zyklotomic> but if it is lazy, i can defer the appending into one go
2021-07-28 18:55:43 +0000 <dolio> You don't append to a stack.
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2021-07-28 18:56:01 +0000 <zyklotomic> oh... you put it in the front
2021-07-28 18:56:03 +0000 <zyklotomic> ?
2021-07-28 18:56:09 +0000 <pavonia> Yes
2021-07-28 18:56:22 +0000 <zyklotomic> lol..... ohhhh
2021-07-28 18:56:42 +0000 <zyklotomic> thanks dolio, pavonia
2021-07-28 18:56:58 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:57:25 +0000 <boxscape> Hm I was thinking making a few CPP macros would be faster than writing template haskell, but I'm starting to regret that
2021-07-28 18:57:25 +0000fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 18:57:46 +0000 <boxscape> apparently having an apostrophe or not in front of a macro (inside a macro) changing whether that macro is expanded or not
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2021-07-28 19:02:08 +0000 <pavonia> It probably treats that as char literal
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2021-07-28 19:04:40 +0000 <boxscape> hmm perhaps, I wouldn't expect that a priori since it's part of a name (Lens')
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2021-07-28 21:32:18 +0000 <koz> Does anyone know how to get --pattern for tasty to behave? I tried something like --pattern='$2 == Foo && $NF == Bar', but that's not acceptable to it for whatever reason.
2021-07-28 21:32:27 +0000 <koz> This is inside of --benchmark-options="...".
2021-07-28 21:32:35 +0000 <koz> Am I being hurt by Bash quoting or something?
2021-07-28 21:34:58 +0000OscarH(~OscarH@97e0e7ba.skybroadband.com)
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2021-07-28 21:35:04 +0000 <geekosaur> more likkely by --benchmark-options not itself supporting quoting, so --pattern gets the single quotes too and doesn't know what to do with them
2021-07-28 21:35:25 +0000sheepduck(~sheepduck@user/sheepduck)
2021-07-28 21:35:45 +0000 <koz> Hmm, it seems if I do --benchmark-options='--pattern="$2 = \"Foo\" && $NF == \"Bar\"" ... ', that works.
2021-07-28 21:35:55 +0000 <koz> Feels like a Bash problem, sigh.
2021-07-28 21:36:07 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 21:36:24 +0000 <geekosaur> hm, possibly
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2021-07-28 21:39:56 +0000 <geekosaur> hm, yes. your outer quotes qre "" so the uinner ones are ignored and the $s are expanded
2021-07-28 21:41:38 +0000 <koz> Le sigh... Bash quoting is one of the most annoying things.
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2021-07-28 21:42:05 +0000 <monochrom> All quoting and escaping mechanisms don't scale.
2021-07-28 21:42:27 +0000 <koz> Some just don't scale more than others.
2021-07-28 21:43:48 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-07-28 21:44:17 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae)
2021-07-28 21:45:07 +0000 <euouae> Hello I have a question about Haskell and HPC. I've heard that Haskell does not have very good support for OpenMPI. Why is that? It seems like a relatively simple C API. How come there is no decent FFI for it?
2021-07-28 21:46:06 +0000cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 21:50:07 +0000 <koz> euouae: Nobody wrote any bindings I guess.
2021-07-28 21:50:13 +0000 <koz> You could be the first!
2021-07-28 21:51:10 +0000vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 21:51:28 +0000 <euouae> Hehe :) ok. There are some bindings; but when I asked last time about 'distributed computing' I was told that progress has stalled in Haskell
2021-07-28 21:51:40 +0000 <euouae> For example there is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mpi-hs
2021-07-28 21:51:46 +0000 <koz> euouae: 'Progress' and 'stalled' are fairly relative terms.
2021-07-28 21:51:58 +0000 <koz> (and 'distributed computing' could mean a lot of things)
2021-07-28 21:52:20 +0000 <euouae> Yes and yes, I guess I just wanted to ask if HPC is possible in Haskell
2021-07-28 21:52:28 +0000 <hpc> i am possible
2021-07-28 21:52:30 +0000 <koz> Possible? Yes.
2021-07-28 21:52:33 +0000 <koz> Also that.
2021-07-28 21:52:44 +0000 <euouae> lol
2021-07-28 21:52:50 +0000 <monochrom> 50 shades of possibleness.
2021-07-28 21:53:33 +0000 <monochrom> Sometimes "possible" means "there are language features and libraries I can just use right away".
2021-07-28 21:53:55 +0000 <koz> Surely '50 Shades of Possibility?".
2021-07-28 21:54:06 +0000vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2021-07-28 21:54:07 +0000 <koz> s/?"./"?/
2021-07-28 21:54:20 +0000 <monochrom> I have considered that. It doesn't sound right.
2021-07-28 21:54:23 +0000 <koz> (mismatched quotes but ehh)
2021-07-28 21:54:29 +0000 <koz> I think it sounds better than 'possibleness'.
2021-07-28 21:54:51 +0000 <monochrom> Well, this one is about 50 different meanings of "possible", not 50 cases.
2021-07-28 21:55:29 +0000 <koz> 50 Shades of Natural Language.
2021-07-28 21:57:59 +0000 <monochrom> My latest gripe on people bending natural language is "literate programming".
2021-07-28 21:58:38 +0000 <monochrom> Apparently, people have watered down literate programming to just mean inverted comment-vs-code syntax, such as our *.lhs and emacs org mode.
2021-07-28 21:59:03 +0000 <euouae> No idea what literate programming is or how it works
2021-07-28 21:59:35 +0000 <euouae> There was never an explanation of how the comments are stripped and the source fed to the compiler, it was always some wishy washy 'this is revolutionary' article
2021-07-28 22:00:00 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 22:00:04 +0000 <monochrom> To achieve what Knuth meant by literate programming (hint: if it were just comment-vs-code syntax, he would not go to the trouble to implement two programs, weave and tangle), people now have to say "bidirectional literate programming"
2021-07-28 22:00:23 +0000 <monochrom> Programmers keep doing this.
2021-07-28 22:01:27 +0000 <monochrom> Hungarian notation : "Hungarian notation" :: engineer : "engineer" :: literate programming :: "literate programming"
2021-07-28 22:03:35 +0000 <monochrom> euouae: I haven't done literate programming (the real one) for a long time. But when I did, I used Norman Ramsay's programs "noweave" and "notangle".
2021-07-28 22:04:11 +0000 <monochrom> I get to handwave it because I can point you to existing software. :)
2021-07-28 22:04:34 +0000 <hpc> my favorite is when programmers invent new words for nothing, like "eventually consistent" or "duck typing"
2021-07-28 22:04:55 +0000 <monochrom> But "notangle" is the program that emits code files you can then give to compilers.
2021-07-28 22:05:13 +0000 <monochrom> "noweave" is the one that emits TeX/LaTeX files.
2021-07-28 22:05:22 +0000 <monochrom> Similarly Knuth's weave and tangle.
2021-07-28 22:06:35 +0000 <euouae> That stuff is so cryptic
2021-07-28 22:06:43 +0000 <euouae> I'm reading the man page and it's almost nonsensical
2021-07-28 22:07:08 +0000 <monochrom> man pages are seldom tutorials.
2021-07-28 22:07:20 +0000 <euouae> well for one I can't even find it online
2021-07-28 22:07:26 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 22:07:35 +0000 <monochrom> If you already know Knuth's idea of literate programming, then noweave and notangle make sense.
2021-07-28 22:07:39 +0000fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 22:07:56 +0000 <monochrom> If you don't, perhaps don't worry about it for now.
2021-07-28 22:08:03 +0000 <euouae> O
2021-07-28 22:08:04 +0000fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com)
2021-07-28 22:08:17 +0000 <euouae> I'd know the idea if there was a single coherent article/blog about it :P
2021-07-28 22:08:22 +0000dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 22:08:24 +0000 <monochrom> But millenial bloggers can only brag and handwave, yes.
2021-07-28 22:08:33 +0000ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-28 22:08:52 +0000 <monochrom> "coherent blog" is an oxymoron.
2021-07-28 22:09:21 +0000 <dolio> Does the wikipedia article explain it?
2021-07-28 22:09:27 +0000 <monochrom> Look for Knuth's original articles and papers. Screw bloggers.
2021-07-28 22:09:48 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah wikipedia has a high chance of being OK too.
2021-07-28 22:10:16 +0000 <dolio> Seems like it does, although I just read it, and never understood what advocates were on about prior.
2021-07-28 22:10:16 +0000 <monochrom> The blogosphere is a meta-level echo chamber of mediocrity.
2021-07-28 22:10:55 +0000 <dolio> E.G. one of the main things that would disqualify Literate Haskell is that you still have to put all your imports at the top.
2021-07-28 22:11:33 +0000 <monochrom> That would be my opinion, yes.
2021-07-28 22:12:05 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 22:13:49 +0000 <dolio> I'm not really sure I buy the 'revolutionary' part either, though.
2021-07-28 22:14:37 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 22:14:48 +0000 <monochrom> True. I was excited when I learned it when I was young. But not to the point of calling it "revolutionary".
2021-07-28 22:14:48 +0000 <dolio> It seems way too optimistic about the underlying reasons why software is poorly documented.
2021-07-28 22:15:51 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
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2021-07-28 22:16:00 +0000 <dolio> Using literate programming isn't going to make your programmers proofread the entire codebase every time they make a change to make sure everything is still coherent.
2021-07-28 22:16:08 +0000 <monochrom> Oh yeah, it's even more thankless work than the existing comment system.
2021-07-28 22:17:13 +0000 <monochrom> I certainly did it when only it was appropriate. I ran a programming contest and then posted my solution and explanation. That one was an excellent use case.
2021-07-28 22:17:39 +0000 <monochrom> But the program I wrote for my MSc project, haha why would anyone.
2021-07-28 22:18:49 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae)
2021-07-28 22:19:54 +0000chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 22:23:36 +0000 <dolio> Yeah, I would guess that it turns out well because of how Knuth is writing the programs, and most programs aren't written that way (single author, writing something intended to be didactic).
2021-07-28 22:24:32 +0000agua(~agua@2804:14c:8793:8e2f:8dcb:5525:982:c9ab) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-07-28 22:24:33 +0000 <dolio> I can write (I think) great stuff like that in non-literate Haskell when it's my goal, but often it's not.
2021-07-28 22:25:59 +0000 <dolio> Sometimes I do it in Agda, and that has constraints on the order you can write definitions in.
2021-07-28 22:28:44 +0000 <sm> eww!
2021-07-28 22:28:48 +0000 <glguy> Couldn't we do literate programming just the same now as Knuth did then? It just wouldn't be .lhs files; we'd have to use the same kind of processing passes used before.
2021-07-28 22:29:50 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7921:180d:4519:92d1) ()
2021-07-28 22:29:53 +0000 <sm> we certainly can
2021-07-28 22:29:56 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah just use Knuth's weave-tangle or Ramsay's nowave-notangle. Agnostic to languages.
2021-07-28 22:30:39 +0000 <monochrom> Why even invent lhs in the first place.
2021-07-28 22:31:03 +0000 <sm> org mode can do it too
2021-07-28 22:32:16 +0000 <sm> and https://leoeditor.com
2021-07-28 22:34:44 +0000 <sm> or I suppose just m4 if you want to really mess around
2021-07-28 22:37:34 +0000euouae(~euouae@user/euouae) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2021-07-28 22:42:26 +0000 <monochrom> Uh m4 hahahaha
2021-07-28 22:43:05 +0000 <monochrom> Someone please concort a shell script that uses sed, and only sed, in a very clever way >:)
2021-07-28 22:43:50 +0000cheater(~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 22:43:55 +0000 <dolio> I guess strictly speaking, the orderedness of Agda is likely to be less of a limitation, because it basically means you need to introduce the type of something before referring to it, or the definition of something before depending on the properties thereof.
2021-07-28 22:44:22 +0000 <dolio> Which seems like it would correllate with how you'd have to explain things for them to make sense.
2021-07-28 22:46:31 +0000dajoer(~david@user/gvx)
2021-07-28 22:47:06 +0000Topsi(~Tobias@dyndsl-037-138-065-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2021-07-28 22:48:26 +0000 <monochrom> My experience is that, e.g., if an ADT has 4 cases and you have a function that works on that ADT, half of the time it is better to explain the first 2 cases and the first half of your function, and then go back to explain the other 2 cases and the other half of your function.
2021-07-28 22:48:57 +0000 <monochrom> In fact I am doing this in my course notes http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/09-semantics-1.html
2021-07-28 22:49:26 +0000 <dolio> Yeah, I'm not sure if you can break up definitions like that in Agda.
2021-07-28 22:49:49 +0000 <monochrom> Pedagogically it makes no sense to even bring up, e.g., the "VClosure" case of the "Value" type at any early point.
2021-07-28 22:50:47 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 22:52:06 +0000 <dolio> That idea might have been reinvented many years later as "aspect oriented programming", although I'm not an expert on that, either.
2021-07-28 22:52:16 +0000 <monochrom> :)
2021-07-28 22:52:26 +0000 <dolio> Much worse name, certainly.
2021-07-28 22:53:05 +0000 <monochrom> My recollection is that AOP fizzled because it (or its community) really went the equivalent of the m4 route and it became unwanted madness.
2021-07-28 22:53:10 +0000eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 22:54:38 +0000 <monochrom> But AOP did not aim for explaining code, it aimed for keeping code open-world for postmortem additions.
2021-07-28 22:55:28 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2021-07-28 22:55:59 +0000 <dolio> Yeah.
2021-07-28 22:56:20 +0000 <dolio> I guess it's the same sort of idea with a different goal in mind.
2021-07-28 22:56:36 +0000 <monochrom> Ah, yeah.
2021-07-28 22:58:02 +0000Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:2910:fbd1:f882:3730)
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2021-07-28 22:59:35 +0000 <dolio> I guess my hypothesis is that widespread adoption of literate programming tools would probably get you to where AOP went.
2021-07-28 22:59:56 +0000 <dolio> Because programmers will care about the code organization possibilities, not writing excellent documentation.
2021-07-28 23:03:09 +0000 <johnw> if I have a record data Foo = Foo { a :: Int, b :: Int }, is it possible to write a Traversal' Foo Int over the two members?
2021-07-28 23:03:47 +0000curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 23:04:32 +0000 <dolio> Yes, you can write one.
2021-07-28 23:04:38 +0000 <dibblego> yes, though it would be Iso
2021-07-28 23:04:45 +0000 <dibblego> (and ∴ traversal)
2021-07-28 23:05:05 +0000 <dolio> If the question is whether a library will generate one automatically, I don't know.
2021-07-28 23:05:18 +0000 <johnw> I don't know why I'm stuck on this
2021-07-28 23:05:32 +0000 <dibblego> generic-lens is the closest you'll get in this regard; I've been down this rabbit hole
2021-07-28 23:05:59 +0000 <dibblego> johnw: fooIso = iso (\(Foo x y) -> (x, y)) (uncurry Foo)
2021-07-28 23:06:21 +0000 <johnw> I actually want a traversal
2021-07-28 23:06:24 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 23:06:26 +0000 <johnw> not a projected to a pair
2021-07-28 23:06:28 +0000 <dibblego> that is a traversal ^^
2021-07-28 23:06:46 +0000 <dibblego> oh wait sorry
2021-07-28 23:06:51 +0000 <dibblego> you want Traversal' Foo Int
2021-07-28 23:07:06 +0000 <dibblego> fooTraversal f (Foo x y) = Foo <$> f x <*> f y
2021-07-28 23:07:18 +0000 <johnw> ah, got it
2021-07-28 23:07:23 +0000 <johnw> in my case it's actually:
2021-07-28 23:07:24 +0000 <johnw> s & zipped fees commission %%~ \(x, y) -> (,) <$> f x <*> f y
2021-07-28 23:07:30 +0000 <johnw> it's the use of the sub-lenses that made it awkward
2021-07-28 23:07:36 +0000 <johnw> thanks dibblego!
2021-07-28 23:07:42 +0000lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 23:08:01 +0000 <sm> hello johnw! hope you're having an excellent day
2021-07-28 23:08:01 +0000 <dibblego> @type both -- you can also use that ^ Iso with both
2021-07-28 23:08:03 +0000 <lambdabot> (Data.Bitraversable.Bitraversable r, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> r a a -> f (r b b)
2021-07-28 23:08:09 +0000 <johnw> hi sm, it's a good day; you?
2021-07-28 23:08:39 +0000 <boxscape_> % let foo = Foo 1 2 in (foo ^.. template :: [Int]) -- this works if Foo derives Data
2021-07-28 23:08:39 +0000 <yahb> boxscape_: [1,2]
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2021-07-28 23:08:56 +0000dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 23:09:07 +0000 <sm> yes! no complaints. it's drizzling 🌧👍🏻
2021-07-28 23:10:23 +0000 <boxscape_> % let fooTraversal = template :: Traversal' Foo Int -- more concretely
2021-07-28 23:10:23 +0000 <yahb> boxscape_:
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