IRCBrowse

2021/07/28

2021-07-28 00:00:08 +0200Guest1981(~user@c-66-31-23-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:01:52 +0200 <lechner> Hi, why do I have to send my Haskell programs Ctrl-C two times to terminate, please?
2021-07-28 00:02:47 +0200 <geekosaur> are you trapping exceptions? ctrl-c is translated into an exception
2021-07-28 00:03:15 +0200 <lechner> i am
2021-07-28 00:03:33 +0200 <glguy> You shouldn't be blanket-dropping exceptions
2021-07-28 00:03:48 +0200 <lechner> actually, not in this program
2021-07-28 00:03:57 +0200 <hpc> the first ctrl-c is for your program, the second ctrl-c is for the rts to go "uh oh"
2021-07-28 00:04:04 +0200 <hpc> otherwise you'd be stuck
2021-07-28 00:04:46 +0200 <monochrom> I only need one ctrl-c.
2021-07-28 00:04:56 +0200 <lechner> can i do anything useful in the RTS?
2021-07-28 00:05:13 +0200 <monochrom> Unless my ghci is inside emacs, but then it's emacs that requires two ctrl-c.
2021-07-28 00:05:37 +0200 <hpc> *c-c
2021-07-28 00:05:51 +0200 <lechner> i use 'cabal install' and then run the program from that path via fish
2021-07-28 00:06:12 +0200 <geekosaur> fwiw I just tested one of my programs and it only requires one ctrl-c. I don't use exceptions
2021-07-28 00:06:16 +0200drd(~drd@93-39-151-19.ip76.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:07:03 +0200 <geekosaur> (took some time to get it to run long enough to let me interrupt it though)
2021-07-28 00:07:15 +0200 <lechner> maybe something with the ZMQ loop
2021-07-28 00:07:29 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2021-07-28 00:07:37 +0200 <monochrom> This is what goes wrong when you overgeneralize your question.
2021-07-28 00:08:02 +0200jmorris(uid433911@id-433911.stonehaven.irccloud.com)
2021-07-28 00:08:46 +0200 <glguy> When I press ^C I just got C added to my program's input buffer
2021-07-28 00:09:13 +0200 <hpc> this reproduces the ^C^C behavior - Prelude Control.Exception Control.Concurrent> catch (threadDelay 100000000) (\(SomeException e) -> threadDelay 10000000)
2021-07-28 00:10:25 +0200 <hpc> you have to ^C while execution is in an exception handler, it seems
2021-07-28 00:11:59 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 00:12:02 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-022.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:12:05 +0200agua(~agua@2804:14c:8793:8e2f:24cc:893e:e794:aea7)
2021-07-28 00:12:47 +0200 <lechner> Hi, is there a way to assign values to a constituent in a "data" type (sorry, if that lingo is bogus) or do I always have to construct a new one?
2021-07-28 00:12:49 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:13:15 +0200 <monochrom> Immutable data means you have to construct a new one.
2021-07-28 00:13:21 +0200 <geekosaur> you always ocnstruct a new one although it may be based on an old one
2021-07-28 00:13:49 +0200 <monochrom> It also means that you can still get 90% reuse.
2021-07-28 00:14:25 +0200drd(~drd@93-39-151-19.ip76.fastwebnet.it)
2021-07-28 00:14:29 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 00:15:31 +0200 <hpc> record update syntax can be a nice shortcut for having to fully type out constructing a new value
2021-07-28 00:15:54 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:15:59 +0200pesada(~agua@2804:18:4a:f76c:1:0:5e60:e39) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:16:32 +0200 <lechner> that discipline is great. i keep finding bugs, or near misses
2021-07-28 00:16:57 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 00:17:14 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 00:18:17 +0200 <lechner> i really have to get my types in order
2021-07-28 00:18:35 +0200jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2021-07-28 00:19:28 +0200 <sm> get your ducks in a row 🦆 🦆 🦆
2021-07-28 00:20:14 +0200 <lechner> if they only were all ducks!
2021-07-28 00:22:08 +0200 <lechner> this program will be so reliable, they can take it to Mars
2021-07-28 00:23:22 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:24:19 +0200 <sm> all must be ducks in ducks compartment. Please stay in your assigned seating so that we can depart for Mars on time.
2021-07-28 00:25:34 +0200 <lechner> actually, with "duck typing" being a common expression elsewhere we should really pick a different animal
2021-07-28 00:25:34 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@user/sheepduck)
2021-07-28 00:26:16 +0200 <sm> these are space ducks
2021-07-28 00:27:02 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:27:03 +0200 <sm> highly trained
2021-07-28 00:27:32 +0200 <Axman6> These ducks know their type, and will not accept gooses
2021-07-28 00:28:28 +0200 <Axman6> (and gooses are distinct from geese too)
2021-07-28 00:30:46 +0200 <lechner> with so much professionalism required, I was more thinking about penguins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iejIfJ0gk
2021-07-28 00:31:28 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> what do you call a flock of geese at 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway?
2021-07-28 00:31:34 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> a gaggle
2021-07-28 00:32:24 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:34:36 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> if that is not improved upon and posted to twitter later ya'll have failed me ;(
2021-07-28 00:35:31 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 00:36:06 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:37:00 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:37:13 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 00:38:49 +0200 <Cale> lechner: Yeah, the way that I think about it is that if you want to write good software in a language without a good type system, you still need to think about types, it's just that the computer isn't going to be much help.
2021-07-28 00:39:58 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:40:21 +0200 <lechner> Cale: I feel silly about having done so much in Perl
2021-07-28 00:40:32 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> plz buy my new book on dysfunctional programming; types without thinking, available soon but maybe never!
2021-07-28 00:40:51 +0200finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:41:14 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:41:53 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:42:04 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 00:42:22 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-07-28 00:42:44 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> (this is parody)
2021-07-28 00:43:52 +0200meinside_(uid24933@id-24933.brockwell.irccloud.com)
2021-07-28 00:44:41 +0200peterhil(~peterhil@mobile-access-b04815-181.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-28 00:45:34 +0200P1RATEZ(piratez@user/p1ratez) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:45:47 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> kind of want that book though ;(
2021-07-28 00:45:48 +0200drd(~drd@93-39-151-19.ip76.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:46:54 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:47:17 +0200 <monochrom> I think I can contribute to that book. When I was undergrad, some classmates did the following, I had to correct them.
2021-07-28 00:47:40 +0200 <monochrom> We were learning C and reading man pages for library functions like strcpy for example.
2021-07-28 00:48:22 +0200 <monochrom> man page had a line about the type, "char *strcpy(char *dest, const char *src)".
2021-07-28 00:48:52 +0200 <monochrom> My classmates fulfilled that line only, without reading the rest of the man page or understanding why we need dst, by coding:
2021-07-28 00:49:04 +0200 <monochrom> char *foo; strcpy(foo, "hello");
2021-07-28 00:49:21 +0200 <geekosaur> oy
2021-07-28 00:50:21 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a008:d600:18f2:3421:bac6:8f38) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-07-28 00:51:23 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 00:53:02 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b950729faca9193881d78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:53:30 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 00:53:40 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 00:54:49 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-28 00:56:04 +0200 <lechner> i once worked with a gentleman who took on an Excel task at work. the resulting file contained no formulas; he had used a desk calculator for the computations and then typed in all the values
2021-07-28 00:58:10 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:58:32 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 00:58:34 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-28 00:58:46 +0200mnrmnaugh(~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 00:59:10 +0200betelgeuse(~john2gb@94-225-47-8.access.telenet.be)
2021-07-28 00:59:29 +0200 <hpc> that reminds me of a story from a web developer job interview
2021-07-28 01:00:01 +0200 <hpc> the interviewer asked "how would you calculate the area of a square", and the interviewee asked "how long are the sides?"
2021-07-28 01:00:17 +0200 <hpc> and just couldn't understand that they wanted a formula
2021-07-28 01:00:50 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 01:01:25 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 01:02:12 +0200dermato_dermato
2021-07-28 01:05:49 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer were all given a red rubber ball and told to find the volume.
2021-07-28 01:05:50 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> The mathematician carefully measured the diameter and evaluated a triple integral.
2021-07-28 01:05:52 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> The physicist filled a beaker with water, put the ball in the water, and measured the total displacement.
2021-07-28 01:05:54 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> The engineer looked up the model and serial numbers in his red-rubber-ball table.
2021-07-28 01:06:05 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 01:06:25 +0200Atum__(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232)
2021-07-28 01:06:28 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 01:07:10 +0200dermato(~dermatobr@154.21.114.128) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-07-28 01:07:16 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc01:5c00:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 01:07:54 +0200Atum___(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232)
2021-07-28 01:08:20 +0200dermato(~dermatobr@154.21.114.128)
2021-07-28 01:09:42 +0200Atum_(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:09:57 +0200 <hpc> when i measured my red rubber ball at home i came up with a volume of 0db
2021-07-28 01:11:29 +0200Atum__(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:12:53 +0200mrus(~mrus@2001:19f0:5:1535:5400:3ff:fe7d:10ae)
2021-07-28 01:12:58 +0200 <monochrom> Wait, I would expect the mathematician to measure the surface areas and divide by 3.
2021-07-28 01:13:22 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> the web developer is still trying to figure out how long the sides are
2021-07-28 01:13:42 +0200 <hpc> monochrom: that doesn't work in anti-de sitter space
2021-07-28 01:14:39 +0200 <monochrom> I also missed a factor of the radius.
2021-07-28 01:14:55 +0200 <monochrom> But heh anti-de-sitter space is more funny.
2021-07-28 01:18:58 +0200 <Axman6> lechner: there will be times where the type system frustrates you, and you will ask yourself questions that begin "Why can't I just..." but then you'll remember that the compiler is your friend and wants to help you, and you also need to work to help it understand your needs. It's like a good relationship
2021-07-28 01:19:08 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 01:19:28 +0200 <Axman6> (Yes, writing perl, python and ruby is like having a relationship where you throw abuse at your partner and expect it to do what you mean)
2021-07-28 01:19:59 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 01:20:15 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 01:20:19 +0200 <Axman6> DigitalKiwi: Either (Soon Book) (Maybe Never)
2021-07-28 01:21:31 +0200mr-red(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 01:21:56 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:27:02 +0200 <Cajun> well the compiler does its best to help, sometimes it just isnt very good at it lol
2021-07-28 01:27:37 +0200 <lechner> it's the thought that counts
2021-07-28 01:27:53 +0200pesada(~agua@2804:18:4a:f76c:1:0:5e60:e39)
2021-07-28 01:28:27 +0200mr-red(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-07-28 01:28:39 +0200 <Axman6> exactly, you shouldn't expect perfection from your partner. Sometimes they will mess up and delete your source code when it doesn't type check
2021-07-28 01:29:28 +0200 <cheater> hmm... a compiler that deletes code that's too stupid... that's an interesting design idea
2021-07-28 01:29:34 +0200 <hpc> i read that windows defender did that to someone the other day with a tool they wrote to generate license keys for some software they sold
2021-07-28 01:29:44 +0200 <hpc> so not even outside the realm of possibility lol
2021-07-28 01:29:46 +0200 <Axman6> cheater: that was an actual GHC bug
2021-07-28 01:29:53 +0200 <cheater> nice
2021-07-28 01:30:05 +0200 <cheater> but did it commit and force push the git?
2021-07-28 01:30:16 +0200 <cheater> because if not, then it's just half measures
2021-07-28 01:30:16 +0200 <Axman6> it might have been before git...
2021-07-28 01:30:18 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> well if you weren't so careless GHC wouldn't have thrown it out!
2021-07-28 01:31:32 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/163
2021-07-28 01:31:35 +0200 <Cajun> how about if you abuse unsafePerformIO to get around immutability it throws it out
2021-07-28 01:32:07 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 01:32:10 +0200pbrisbin(~patrick@174-083-170-200.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:32:36 +0200agua(~agua@2804:14c:8793:8e2f:24cc:893e:e794:aea7) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:36:25 +0200Matthias1(~Matthias1@2603-8001-b545-4900-d18f-7add-ad3c-4ebe.res6.spectrum.com)
2021-07-28 01:36:34 +0200Matthias1(~Matthias1@2603-8001-b545-4900-d18f-7add-ad3c-4ebe.res6.spectrum.com) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 01:38:59 +0200argento(~argent0@168-227-96-51.ptr.westnet.com.ar) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 01:40:38 +0200 <lechner> Hi, is there a naming convention for function variables, other than starting with a lowercase letter?
2021-07-28 01:41:41 +0200 <monochrom> I hate camel case but I respect that it's a community choice so I play along.
2021-07-28 01:41:46 +0200 <Axman6> make the name meaningful is there is a meaningful name, otherwise use a well used placeholder - x and xs are common because they can usually represent anything
2021-07-28 01:41:51 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 01:42:39 +0200aegon(~mike@174.127.249.180)
2021-07-28 01:42:47 +0200 <geekosaur> for a generic function variable, something like f / g / h
2021-07-28 01:43:26 +0200 <monochrom> And yeah, supposedly generic entities shouldn't take your time choosing "meaningful" names. Save it for really specific entities.
2021-07-28 01:43:47 +0200 <Axman6> there are conventions for type variable names, and sometimes using that same name for the variables with that type can be useful (but also confusing to those who are very new)
2021-07-28 01:44:32 +0200 <lechner> i use meaningful names but they can get long, and because of the JSON i have I'm getting drawn into the East Coast underscore_style
2021-07-28 01:45:50 +0200 <Axman6> Jed Wesley-Smith's talk 'Why "Names Don't Matter" matters' is pretty good on the topic IIRC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSNg6KNzydQ (I'm a bit biased though)
2021-07-28 01:46:24 +0200 <Axman6> you can control the names that are generated in your json and have it convery to snake case if you need that
2021-07-28 01:46:38 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb)
2021-07-28 01:47:03 +0200 <Cajun> functions also tend to have some way of denoting what it uses, like mapM (monadic), foldl' (its strict), etc
2021-07-28 01:49:10 +0200 <janus> % :t replicateM
2021-07-28 01:49:10 +0200 <yahb> janus: Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
2021-07-28 01:49:14 +0200 <janus> and they can lie about it :P
2021-07-28 01:50:02 +0200 <Axman6> It's like conferate statues in the US, a relic of the past that should be changed
2021-07-28 01:51:17 +0200dajoer(~david@user/gvx)
2021-07-28 01:51:19 +0200 <monochrom> BTW I avoid using the word "isomorphism" and its derivatives.
2021-07-28 01:51:38 +0200finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
2021-07-28 01:51:54 +0200 <dsal> replicate'M
2021-07-28 01:52:08 +0200 <Axman6> yeah the cool kids use s'morphism these days
2021-07-28 01:52:14 +0200 <dsal> @hoogle replicate'M
2021-07-28 01:52:16 +0200 <dsal> boo
2021-07-28 01:52:19 +0200 <Axman6> sounds less like an apple product
2021-07-28 01:52:35 +0200 <Axman6> @hoogle m'Lady
2021-07-28 01:52:35 +0200 <lambdabot> No results found
2021-07-28 01:52:45 +0200 <dsal> "meaningful names" are often pretty terrible and distracting.
2021-07-28 01:52:45 +0200 <monochrom> It can be a very precise and meaningful word, but only when me and my audience have already established context regarding what structure is being preserved.
2021-07-28 01:53:57 +0200 <monochrom> If I am just explaining to a beginner that "Bool->X" and "(X,X)" represent the same thing, I stay informal and say "equivalent" in the daily English sense, or at most I go "bijective".
2021-07-28 01:54:08 +0200 <Axman6> "One-to-one correspondy boi"
2021-07-28 01:54:33 +0200 <monochrom> There is absolutely no need to encourage beginners to cargo-cult the word "ismorphism".
2021-07-28 01:55:02 +0200 <lechner> can the scrutinee be an expression?
2021-07-28 01:55:15 +0200 <dsal> Sure, yeah.
2021-07-28 01:55:31 +0200 <monochrom> If you take a poll in the Haskell community, I bet you that you will find that most people reply "I say 'isomorphism' because, only because, I hear other people say it, I don't really know why".
2021-07-28 01:55:33 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> replicate'm? damn near killed'em
2021-07-28 01:55:56 +0200 <Axman6> XD
2021-07-28 01:56:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 01:57:23 +0200 <lechner> Can something like this tool_folder <- getTool (tool config) tempdir really be turned into something like case (getTool (tool config) tempdir) of ?
2021-07-28 01:57:38 +0200 <Axman6> no
2021-07-28 01:57:45 +0200 <Axman6> well, it depends which monad you're working in
2021-07-28 01:57:58 +0200 <Axman6> there's a lot of missing context around that <-
2021-07-28 01:58:10 +0200 <dsal> You can lambdacase it.
2021-07-28 01:58:12 +0200 <lechner> yeah
2021-07-28 01:58:55 +0200 <dsal> But `x <- a` isn't an expression, it's a fancy way to write `x >>= \a -> ...`
2021-07-28 01:59:11 +0200Deide(~Deide@user/deide) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa)
2021-07-28 01:59:16 +0200 <lechner> i know i did not use the right term
2021-07-28 01:59:55 +0200 <dsal> With LambdaCase you can write `getTool (tool config) tempDir >>= \case ...`
2021-07-28 02:00:15 +0200 <lechner> now you are talking
2021-07-28 02:00:27 +0200 <lechner> that could be my first >>=
2021-07-28 02:01:17 +0200 <c_wraith> the haskell spec calls `x <- a` a statement in its grammar. Which is funny. Haskell has statements, but only inside of special expressions.
2021-07-28 02:01:34 +0200 <monochrom> do { mt <- getTool (tool config) tempdir; case mt of ... }
2021-07-28 02:02:07 +0200 <lechner> that's what i have now, and i'll probably keep it
2021-07-28 02:02:14 +0200 <lechner> just learning
2021-07-28 02:02:18 +0200 <dsal> Yeah, LambdaCase is occasionally nice.
2021-07-28 02:02:26 +0200 <dsal> Not using `do` is pretty often an improvement.
2021-07-28 02:02:27 +0200 <lechner> what a great language
2021-07-28 02:02:41 +0200 <lechner> what have i been doing all these years?
2021-07-28 02:03:22 +0200 <monochrom> I don't teach the do-notation in my class. This has improved student learning.
2021-07-28 02:03:35 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 02:03:50 +0200 <monochrom> You can bet that if you remove a cargo-culting opportunity you improve learning.
2021-07-28 02:03:54 +0200 <dsal> @don't do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 02:03:55 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-07-28 02:03:58 +0200 <dsal> @undo do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 02:03:58 +0200 <lambdabot> a >>= \ x -> f a
2021-07-28 02:04:29 +0200 <dsal> Isn't that just `f <$> a` ?
2021-07-28 02:04:57 +0200 <dsal> I need to take a break from computers for a bit.
2021-07-28 02:05:07 +0200 <monochrom> I take it that you mean "f x" not "f a"
2021-07-28 02:05:09 +0200 <Axman6> We definitely need toi add @don't to lambdabot
2021-07-28 02:05:30 +0200 <monochrom> Then, f <$> a = a >>= \x -> pure (f x)
2021-07-28 02:05:38 +0200 <monochrom> err, meant to bold "pure".
2021-07-28 02:05:43 +0200 <Axman6> lambdabot doesn't simplify expressions, it just removes syntax sugar
2021-07-28 02:06:18 +0200 <Axman6> would be nice if it could do ApplicativeDo too
2021-07-28 02:06:27 +0200 <dsal> Oh, yeah, I changed my mind part of the way through what I was doing.
2021-07-28 02:06:58 +0200 <Axman6> we could have @ado (and alias @muchado) to desugar ApplicativeDo
2021-07-28 02:07:11 +0200 <monochrom> Haha nice.
2021-07-28 02:07:13 +0200 <dsal> This is one of those things where you have to do it simply because the name is amazing.
2021-07-28 02:09:38 +0200 <monochrom> Likewise, earlier DigitalKiwi made a deeply insightful math joke "I heard that parallel lines actually do meet, but they are very discrete"
2021-07-28 02:10:18 +0200 <monochrom> That would be a great title or abstract or teaser for an introduction to finite projective geometry.
2021-07-28 02:10:41 +0200 <monochrom> in which parallel lines do meet (projective), and the space is discrete (hell, it's even finite).
2021-07-28 02:14:37 +0200argento(~argent0@168-227-96-53.ptr.westnet.com.ar)
2021-07-28 02:15:38 +0200 <lechner> Hi, why does that not give me stdout, please? (status, stdout, stderr) <- readProcessWithExitCode "git" ["-C", folder, "pull"] ""
2021-07-28 02:16:05 +0200 <Axman6> I don't understand the question
2021-07-28 02:16:46 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 02:16:56 +0200 <lechner> the string is empty
2021-07-28 02:17:30 +0200 <Axman6> maybe git doesn't think it needs to output anything
2021-07-28 02:17:58 +0200 <c_wraith> Maybe the output is on stderr
2021-07-28 02:17:59 +0200 <int-e> @. pl undo do { x <- a; f a }
2021-07-28 02:17:59 +0200 <lambdabot> a >> f a
2021-07-28 02:18:28 +0200 <lechner> i am considering that it may suppress its output, but i'm tranlating old code
2021-07-28 02:18:30 +0200 <int-e> @. pl undo do { x <- a; f x }
2021-07-28 02:18:30 +0200 <lambdabot> f =<< a
2021-07-28 02:18:45 +0200 <monochrom> We shouldn't speculate.
2021-07-28 02:19:00 +0200 <c_wraith> fwiw, my version of git doesn't have a flag -C
2021-07-28 02:19:04 +0200 <int-e> (this is a rare case where @pl actually simplifies code)
2021-07-28 02:19:09 +0200 <c_wraith> in the pull operation, anyway
2021-07-28 02:19:19 +0200 <monochrom> We shouldn't encourage unclear informationless questions by speculating as though we owe them to it.
2021-07-28 02:19:25 +0200 <monochrom> err owe it to them.
2021-07-28 02:19:33 +0200 <c_wraith> So if I run that command, I get a usage explanation on stderr
2021-07-28 02:20:03 +0200 <lechner> c_wraith: i could use {cwd} from process, but the other one has been working on debian bullseye
2021-07-28 02:20:27 +0200 <c_wraith> that's probably the least interesting part of what I said
2021-07-28 02:20:36 +0200 <lechner> it also happens on clone (although again with -C)
2021-07-28 02:20:39 +0200 <Axman6> I would try running something like `echo foo` and make sure that works
2021-07-28 02:21:06 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 02:21:06 +0200 <lechner> okay i will. brb
2021-07-28 02:30:02 +0200berberman(~berberman@user/berberman)
2021-07-28 02:30:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 02:32:22 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 02:32:35 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2021-07-28 02:42:18 +0200 <arkho> sclv, geekosaur, thank you for your advice. I think I've found what I'm looking for.
2021-07-28 02:48:30 +0200Atum___(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 02:49:38 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2021-07-28 02:51:25 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 02:52:56 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@user/nitrix) (Quit: Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration)
2021-07-28 02:55:07 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@ns569831.ip-51-79-81.net)
2021-07-28 02:55:07 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@ns569831.ip-51-79-81.net) (Changing host)
2021-07-28 02:55:07 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@user/nitrix)
2021-07-28 02:55:56 +0200pschorf(~user@c-73-77-28-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 02:58:20 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.tooting.irccloud.com)
2021-07-28 03:00:41 +0200 <Axman6> lechner: any luck?
2021-07-28 03:01:29 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-28 03:07:13 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.4) (Quit: alx741)
2021-07-28 03:08:00 +0200 <Axman6> monochrom: not teaching do notation is an interesting choice, and on reflection seems like an obvious thing to do. I think we didn't touch it for a while in the FP course, possibly until we had introduced IO or parsers
2021-07-28 03:08:33 +0200 <Axman6> teaching foo >>= \x ->\n bar >>= \y -> ... is clear enough I think. I like this choice
2021-07-28 03:10:39 +0200 <lechner> Axman6: yeah, Git is suppressing its output, or it's otherwise not being piped my way
2021-07-28 03:11:00 +0200 <Axman6> interesting.
2021-07-28 03:11:17 +0200 <lechner> i knew. haskell is alawys right
2021-07-28 03:11:26 +0200 <Axman6> withCreateProcess or something might be a better option
2021-07-28 03:11:41 +0200 <lechner> i need the exit status
2021-07-28 03:11:41 +0200 <Axman6> Haskell is sometimes Left
2021-07-28 03:12:16 +0200 <Axman6> ProcessHandle lets you wait on a process and get its exit code
2021-07-28 03:12:40 +0200 <Axman6> but I would be surprised if that's not just how `readProcessWithExitCode` is implemented
2021-07-28 03:12:58 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:527c:b500:2843:4b18:8f2c:3a0f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:13:11 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 03:14:02 +0200 <lechner> maybe the empty string on the input closes the handle on stdin?
2021-07-28 03:15:10 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:52b7:d000:f8bb:d399:bdf4:bf95)
2021-07-28 03:16:39 +0200 <lechner> my other implementation redirected to and from /dev/null, i think (Perl's IPC::Run3)
2021-07-28 03:17:44 +0200peterhil(~peterhil@mobile-access-b04815-181.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:18:59 +0200 <monochrom> From the reader's POV, reading from /dev/null is indistinguishable from reading from a closed pipe.
2021-07-28 03:20:06 +0200 <monochrom> And IIUC this git command doesn't abort just because stdin is an EOF.
2021-07-28 03:24:03 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-07-28 03:30:16 +0200neurocyte5(~neurocyte@212.232.90.146)
2021-07-28 03:30:16 +0200neurocyte5(~neurocyte@212.232.90.146) (Changing host)
2021-07-28 03:30:16 +0200neurocyte5(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte)
2021-07-28 03:32:59 +0200 <lechner> it's not aborting. there is no output
2021-07-28 03:33:34 +0200 <monochrom> Did "echo hello" give you output? Did you receive it?
2021-07-28 03:33:43 +0200 <lechner> yes
2021-07-28 03:33:55 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:33:55 +0200 <lechner> what about strict vs lazy? maybe git never reads
2021-07-28 03:33:56 +0200neurocyte(~neurocyte@user/neurocyte) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 03:33:56 +0200neurocyte5neurocyte
2021-07-28 03:34:20 +0200 <dibblego> Axman6: we've used >>= a lot before do-notation and the first thing we show is a mechanical syntactic transformation
2021-07-28 03:34:26 +0200 <lechner> Perl would be lazy in this case
2021-07-28 03:34:44 +0200 <dibblego> we also show C# and Scala syntactic transformation
2021-07-28 03:34:52 +0200 <monochrom> If you want to test out where "git -C foo" sends its output. On unix, you can "git -C foo > thisfilehasstdour 2> thisfilehasstderr", then check the two files.
2021-07-28 03:35:15 +0200nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 03:35:20 +0200 <monochrom> On windows, please install virtualbox then install a unix inside virtualbox :)
2021-07-28 03:35:32 +0200 <monochrom> Or I guess WSL is good enough for this.
2021-07-28 03:36:07 +0200 <geekosaur> windows supports those redirects, at least in cmd.exe
2021-07-28 03:36:30 +0200 <monochrom> Poor windows gets no love from monochrom :)
2021-07-28 03:38:22 +0200 <geekosaur> and… isn't it git -C foo pull?
2021-07-28 03:38:32 +0200 <Axman6> Windows has enterprise support for the lack of love it receives
2021-07-28 03:38:51 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah I forgot the exact command. I used "foo" for generic placeholder.
2021-07-28 03:39:09 +0200 <monochrom> "make love not money" bwhahahaha
2021-07-28 03:46:14 +0200 <Axman6> Advertising for an art's degree?
2021-07-28 03:46:21 +0200 <Axman6> pew pew, shots fired!
2021-07-28 03:49:44 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
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2021-07-28 03:54:11 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2021-07-28 04:02:35 +0200nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2021-07-28 04:06:41 +0200robo_cuckoo(~yilin@2601:400:c100:6330:6b23:fdc1:34d0:ae01)
2021-07-28 04:06:57 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb) (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.0.50)
2021-07-28 04:07:19 +0200_73(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 04:08:37 +0200_73(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ()
2021-07-28 04:09:58 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 04:10:24 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-07-28 04:15:16 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 04:16:38 +0200derelbenkoenig(~derelbenk@99-149-123-44.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 04:19:20 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-07-28 04:19:30 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 04:19:39 +0200 <derelbenkoenig> howdy
2021-07-28 04:26:00 +0200pschorf(~user@c-73-77-28-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-28 04:26:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 04:29:55 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-07-28 04:29:55 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (mercury.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2021-07-28 04:29:55 +0200finn_elijaFinnElija
2021-07-28 04:30:28 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 04:30:44 +0200 <geekosaur> ohai
2021-07-28 04:34:58 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 04:35:03 +0200 <robo_cuckoo> hello
2021-07-28 04:35:47 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-28 04:44:08 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 04:44:13 +0200vicfred(~vicfred@user/vicfred)
2021-07-28 04:48:43 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192)
2021-07-28 04:54:31 +0200 <zzz> aloha
2021-07-28 04:56:52 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 04:57:36 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:00:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:00:55 +0200td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-215.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:02:31 +0200td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-200.citykom.de)
2021-07-28 05:03:19 +0200 <lechner> Hi, what's a good Haskell code formatter, please?
2021-07-28 05:06:03 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-07-28 05:06:40 +0200 <lechner> stylish-haskell?
2021-07-28 05:07:02 +0200 <dsal> I like it, but code formatting is somewhat controversial.
2021-07-28 05:07:39 +0200 <dsal> Ormolu is gaining popularity, but, imo makes code harder to read.
2021-07-28 05:07:45 +0200 <lechner> not in my case. any of them would do, i'm sure
2021-07-28 05:07:58 +0200 <lechner> what's wrong with ormulu?
2021-07-28 05:08:40 +0200 <dsal> They took some cues from elm to prioritize reading diffs over reading code
2021-07-28 05:08:44 +0200 <lechner> brittany?
2021-07-28 05:08:45 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb)
2021-07-28 05:08:51 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 05:08:56 +0200 <dsal> So you the up with taller, more whitespace rich code.
2021-07-28 05:09:29 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-07-28 05:09:40 +0200 <lechner> yeah, ormulu is probably not for me
2021-07-28 05:09:41 +0200 <dsal> It's not actually as bad add elm, but that's a terrible place to get inspiration if you want to read a simple function without scrolling.
2021-07-28 05:11:05 +0200 <dsal> Ormolu has at least one bug open for reducing some obnoxious line breaking, but the one I'm thinking of has been open as long as I've been aware of the project.
2021-07-28 05:11:46 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:15:12 +0200 <lechner> stylish doesn't break long lines
2021-07-28 05:18:33 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
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2021-07-28 05:19:26 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2021-07-28 05:22:23 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-07-28 05:23:32 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2021-07-28 05:24:14 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 05:27:02 +0200 <lechner> i went with hfmt
2021-07-28 05:27:27 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 05:28:27 +0200 <lechner> maybe not
2021-07-28 05:30:51 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2021-07-28 05:34:03 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 05:34:17 +0200derelbenkoenig(~derelbenk@99-149-123-44.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: leaving)
2021-07-28 05:34:22 +0200 <dsal> I use stylish-haskell some. It only occasionally does things that are offensive.
2021-07-28 05:35:27 +0200 <dsal> The results at least look a bit like haskell I see elsewhere. :) If your format is too different from stdlib, I don't think you're doing a good service to the community.
2021-07-28 05:35:44 +0200jushur(~human@user/jushur)
2021-07-28 05:36:10 +0200robo_cuckoo(~yilin@2601:400:c100:6330:6b23:fdc1:34d0:ae01) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2021-07-28 05:36:41 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:38:08 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-156.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:38:10 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:41:40 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.220) (Quit: juhp)
2021-07-28 05:41:54 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.220)
2021-07-28 05:42:31 +0200 <lechner> hfmt says it uses stylish. the latter does not break long lines, which is where most of my problems are
2021-07-28 05:42:51 +0200 <lechner> but hfmt is dense.
2021-07-28 05:42:57 +0200 <siraben> ormolu is what I use and seems to be the most readable, tbh
2021-07-28 05:43:06 +0200 <siraben> stylish-haskell does some whacky things with indentation
2021-07-28 05:43:30 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 05:43:34 +0200 <lechner> as for hfmt, is it normal to use no blank lines in functions?
2021-07-28 05:44:24 +0200argento(~argent0@168-227-96-53.ptr.westnet.com.ar) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 05:46:57 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@218.107.49.28)
2021-07-28 05:47:53 +0200 <dsal> This is definitely not an improvement in readability: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/EUKwWwKa/ormolu.png
2021-07-28 05:50:07 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 05:50:28 +0200 <dsal> It also did a lot of this kind of stuff: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DiODfgZI/mormolu.png
2021-07-28 05:50:43 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 05:51:06 +0200 <siraben> you can configure those, no?
2021-07-28 05:51:11 +0200 <dsal> Definitely not as bad as elm, which typically ~doubles the number of lines in a file, but it's not an improvement: 4 files changed, 1158 insertions(+), 969 deletions(-)
2021-07-28 05:51:38 +0200 <dsal> I thought the point that was that it wasn't configurable.
2021-07-28 05:51:59 +0200 <dsal> One of their stated goals: Implementing one “true” formatting style which admits no configuration.
2021-07-28 05:52:15 +0200dermato(~dermatobr@154.21.114.128) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-07-28 05:53:09 +0200 <dsal> That's why there's a whole fork just to allow something other than two space indentation. :)
2021-07-28 05:55:37 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c)
2021-07-28 05:56:36 +0200 <dsal> both of these are about their "minimize diff" goals. I do not share that goal. I also know how to use my diff tools better than that.
2021-07-28 06:05:04 +0200 <monochrom> History is the dialectic class struggle between someone's idea of one true way and someone else's idea of one true way.
2021-07-28 06:05:38 +0200 <monochrom> Exterminate all humans.
2021-07-28 06:07:38 +0200nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 06:14:13 +0200wei2912(~wei2912@112.199.250.21)
2021-07-28 06:15:02 +0200nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 06:15:24 +0200roboguy_(~roboguy_@2605:a601:ac0e:ae00:3db6:b926:dbf2:890a)
2021-07-28 06:17:52 +0200jmorris(uid433911@id-433911.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-07-28 06:20:40 +0200haltux(~haltux@a89-154-181-47.cpe.netcabo.pt)
2021-07-28 06:20:40 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 06:21:23 +0200hgolden(~hgolden2@cpe-172-114-84-61.socal.res.rr.com)
2021-07-28 06:21:41 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192)
2021-07-28 06:24:55 +0200haltux(~haltux@a89-154-181-47.cpe.netcabo.pt) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 06:24:57 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 06:32:00 +0200 <lechner> According to #git, the Git commands suppress some normal output if stderr is not directed to a tty, for example.
2021-07-28 06:32:07 +0200thyriaen(~thyriaen@x4db77ea2.dyn.telefonica.de)
2021-07-28 06:33:46 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 06:33:52 +0200 <dsal> That's classic bad behavior. heh
2021-07-28 06:35:03 +0200derelict_(~derelict@user/derelict)
2021-07-28 06:37:00 +0200 <Axman6> ha, nailed it. thought it might be something like that
2021-07-28 06:37:17 +0200 <Axman6> make a tty, then read from that... (I don't know what I'm talking about)
2021-07-28 06:38:13 +0200 <lechner> it would be a pseudo terminal i think, but it's probably not worth the trouble
2021-07-28 06:38:37 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 06:39:07 +0200 <lechner> this would be my test program https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Check_output_device_is_a_terminal#Haskell
2021-07-28 06:40:39 +0200roboguy_(~roboguy_@2605:a601:ac0e:ae00:3db6:b926:dbf2:890a) ()
2021-07-28 06:41:23 +0200 <lechner> wow, it does that on 'push' too https://serverok.in/git-stdin-is-not-a-tty
2021-07-28 06:42:08 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 06:42:30 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 06:43:43 +0200 <Axman6> you could always call git with your app's stdin as its stdin right?
2021-07-28 06:45:49 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 06:46:37 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-07-28 06:49:55 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 06:57:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 06:58:21 +0200 <lechner> Axman6: it really isn't essential, but i think that's what my Perl program does. how would i do that in H please?
2021-07-28 06:59:53 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 07:00:06 +0200 <Axman6> anything that uses CreateProcesss can use `Inherit` for std_in, but that looks like the default
2021-07-28 07:07:55 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-28 07:10:40 +0200deide[m](~deidematr@2001:470:69fc:105::c883)
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2021-07-28 07:14:11 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:5520:ed9a:24da:3d0c) ()
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2021-07-28 08:11:26 +0200syntactic_sugar(~amoljha@2601:644:8601:2e30::36e)
2021-07-28 08:11:33 +0200syntactic_sugar(~amoljha@2601:644:8601:2e30::36e) (Client Quit)
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2021-07-28 08:12:44 +0200syntactic_sugar(~amoljha@2601:644:8601:2e30::36e) ()
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2021-07-28 08:13:47 +0200syntactic_sugar(~amoljha@2601:644:8601:2e30::36e) ()
2021-07-28 08:18:34 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-07-28 08:30:59 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb) (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.0.50)
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2021-07-28 09:27:35 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b950729faca9193881d78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-07-28 09:29:20 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2021-07-28 09:35:38 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 09:36:15 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-07-28 09:39:23 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 09:39:30 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2021-07-28 09:39:49 +0200aerona(~aerona@2600:6c54:4600:f300:85b8:3678:dd3f:eeda) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 09:39:54 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 09:42:07 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2021-07-28 09:48:07 +0200bruceleewees(~bruceleew@2a00:f41:184b:540b:14f:e290:3fbf:cea2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 09:51:01 +0200deide[m](~deidematr@2001:470:69fc:105::c883) (Quit: Reconnecting)
2021-07-28 09:51:15 +0200deide[m](~deide@user/deide)
2021-07-28 09:51:57 +0200deide[m]Deide
2021-07-28 10:06:30 +0200 <Arahael> lechner: It's somewhat poorly defined, but they do propose you use the 'porcelion' (sp?) commands directly instead.
2021-07-28 10:06:42 +0200 <Arahael> lechner: As opposed to the commands more intended for direct user interaction.
2021-07-28 10:08:25 +0200alecs(~alecs@151.55.187.98)
2021-07-28 10:16:32 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 10:17:48 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b)))
2021-07-28 10:17:48 +0200allbery_b(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-07-28 10:17:51 +0200allbery_bgeekosaur
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2021-07-28 10:19:17 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2021-07-28 10:52:23 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
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2021-07-28 10:55:08 +0200Melantha(~pyon@user/pyon)
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2021-07-28 11:08:03 +0200comerijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-07-28 11:14:27 +0200jess(~jess@libera/staff/jess)
2021-07-28 11:14:54 +0200 <maerwald> anyone on mac 10.13?
2021-07-28 11:16:08 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178)
2021-07-28 11:23:07 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a44c-e14e-1-feff-f00d-42fa-8cf.fixed6.kpn.net)
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2021-07-28 11:55:23 +0200neurocyte(~neurocyte@212.232.90.146) (Changing host)
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2021-07-28 13:48:32 +0200 <Arahael> That's... More than a few months old!
2021-07-28 13:49:07 +0200 <merijn> Arahael: What is?
2021-07-28 13:49:25 +0200 <Arahael> merijn: 10.13
2021-07-28 13:50:17 +0200 <Arahael> I was aluding to both that it's an old version, and that mac users are encouraged to upate to the latest all the time and often do so quite quickly.
2021-07-28 13:51:29 +0200Deide[m](~deidehalo@2001:470:69fc:105::c89a)
2021-07-28 13:51:30 +0200 <lechner> Arahael: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. scripts should use the "plumbing" commands for robustness? https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Internals-Plumbing-and-Porcelain
2021-07-28 13:52:24 +0200 <Arahael> lechner: Apoologies, you're quite right. The trouble is the visualisation. I keep thinking that the 'porcelien' bit is the part of the toilet you don't particularly want to sit on, you want to sit on the nice cushiony seat instead.
2021-07-28 13:52:51 +0200Arahaelnotes that the correct spelling seems to be "Porcelain".
2021-07-28 13:52:54 +0200 <merijn> The best way to use git is "don't" :p
2021-07-28 13:52:58 +0200 <Arahael> Ha.
2021-07-28 13:53:02 +0200 <davros> mercurial?
2021-07-28 13:54:26 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 13:54:41 +0200Guest83(~Guest83@217.155.19.23)
2021-07-28 13:55:01 +0200 <merijn> Mercurial has lots of problems too, but at least it's far more userfriendly/understandable/easier for most workflows that aren't "the linux kernel workflow" (i.e., most workflows)
2021-07-28 13:55:10 +0200 <lechner> darcs?
2021-07-28 13:55:37 +0200 <merijn> tbh, I'd rather see things like Fossil and Pijul take off, but those don't really have the support yet, so for now I stick to Mercurial
2021-07-28 13:56:12 +0200 <merijn> Mostly because all my coworkers are stockholmed into using git and Mercurial gives me a bidirectional git interface so at least *I* don't have to touch git :p
2021-07-28 13:58:00 +0200Obo(~roberto@70.pool90-171-81.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-07-28 13:59:24 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 13:59:33 +0200 <Arahael> merijn: Mercurial has perfect compatibility with git now?
2021-07-28 13:59:41 +0200 <merijn> Define "perfect"
2021-07-28 13:59:43 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-28 13:59:48 +0200 <Arahael> merijn: Without fault.
2021-07-28 14:00:11 +0200 <merijn> It works on every single repo without submodules that I've interacted with
2021-07-28 14:00:27 +0200 <merijn> submodules fuck things up, but then they also do that with git :p
2021-07-28 14:00:31 +0200 <Arahael> Ah, so doesn't work with submodules? (Which, honestly, are hacky, anyway)
2021-07-28 14:00:44 +0200 <merijn> I dunno how it handles octomerges, but then, I've never seen an octomerge in the wild
2021-07-28 14:00:59 +0200 <Arahael> octomerges are weird, I can't imagine doing them in the wild. Wouldn't want to.
2021-07-28 14:00:59 +0200jespada(~jespada@90.254.247.46)
2021-07-28 14:01:08 +0200 <Arahael> Just merge branches two at a time, like a sane person, I reckon.
2021-07-28 14:04:26 +0200 <merijn> The 2 main reasons I haven't switched to Pijul for some of my personal projects are: 1) don't have any CI solutions yet, 2) Nest has issue tracking, but I'd rather see some format of distributed issue tracking, so I don't get locked in like with github
2021-07-28 14:05:07 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34)
2021-07-28 14:05:45 +0200 <lechner> pijul looks good
2021-07-28 14:06:11 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:3948:b266:7c2d:ce0c)
2021-07-28 14:11:06 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
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2021-07-28 14:19:22 +0200 <maerwald> merijn: my main reason is that the main dev seems to have odd problem with open source and or licensing
2021-07-28 14:20:12 +0200 <lechner> maerwald: that's not good
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2021-07-28 14:48:20 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 14:49:16 +0200 <sergio812> Hi there!
2021-07-28 14:49:16 +0200 <sergio812> I wrote a function taking a list of non-negative integers and producing a list of lists of integers (i.e. "int_seq :: [Int] -> [[Int]]").
2021-07-28 14:49:17 +0200 <sergio812> To each integer in the input list corresponds a list of that exact size.
2021-07-28 14:49:17 +0200 <sergio812> Integers in the result form the increasing sequence of positive integers starting at 1.
2021-07-28 14:49:18 +0200 <sergio812> E.g.
2021-07-28 14:49:18 +0200 <sergio812> int_seq [3,2,1] -> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[6]]
2021-07-28 14:49:19 +0200 <sergio812> int_seq [1,2,3] -> [[1],[2,3],[4,5,6]]
2021-07-28 14:49:19 +0200 <sergio812> int_seq [3,0,2,7,5,1] -> [[1,2,3],[],[4,5],[6,7,8,9,10,11,12],[13,14,15,16,17],[18]]
2021-07-28 14:49:20 +0200 <sergio812> I have a solution that I find a bit terse and would like to have comment on it.
2021-07-28 14:49:20 +0200 <sergio812> Should I paste it here, or is there another place for such requests?
2021-07-28 14:49:24 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 14:50:11 +0200 <lechner> dpaste.org, maybe?
2021-07-28 14:50:59 +0200 <merijn> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/
2021-07-28 14:51:29 +0200jneira(~jneira@212.8.115.226) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 14:53:32 +0200 <sergio812> It's only 7 lines, wouldn't it be OK here?
2021-07-28 14:53:44 +0200 <Clint> no
2021-07-28 14:53:45 +0200 <maerwald> 3 is the general consensus
2021-07-28 14:54:11 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@193.138.218.160) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 14:54:17 +0200 <sergio812> ok
2021-07-28 14:54:37 +0200 <lechner> it's tough to browse history otherwise
2021-07-28 14:55:12 +0200 <dminuoso> Also, the network spam detection will disconnect you quite quickly if you send too many lines in short repetition.
2021-07-28 14:55:32 +0200 <dminuoso> Possibly followed by a ban :)
2021-07-28 14:56:08 +0200 <lechner> that's more his problem and not ours, though
2021-07-28 14:56:37 +0200 <sergio812> well, yes, it's mine, that's why I ask :-)
2021-07-28 14:56:59 +0200 <lechner> anyway, welcome! rowdy bunch
2021-07-28 15:01:08 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.4)
2021-07-28 15:01:49 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 15:01:55 +0200 <sergio812> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FIZYG5jH
2021-07-28 15:03:11 +0200 <sergio812> Sorry, missed a definition: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/L7uPK6XT
2021-07-28 15:05:47 +0200 <lechner> i'm too inexperienced to offer advice here, but that looks like two nested iterate's to me
2021-07-28 15:07:42 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 15:11:57 +0200 <sergio812> I realize now that fusing the "replicate" inside the "accum" function might have been a good idea (thereby getting rid of the call to "length")
2021-07-28 15:12:06 +0200 <sergio812> Which gives: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Ex6Lp1K6
2021-07-28 15:12:37 +0200 <sergio812> (But still not sure it's easy to grasp/read...)
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2021-07-28 15:29:42 +0200Deide[m](~deidehalo@2001:470:69fc:105::c89a) ()
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2021-07-28 16:23:09 +0200 <Axman6> sergio812: my solution, theree's probably some ways to remove the explicit recursion but I think this is clear:
2021-07-28 16:23:25 +0200 <Axman6> > let f [] = []; f xs = go xs [1..] where go [] _ = []; go (i:is) ns = let (l,r) = splitAt i ns in l : go is r in f [1,5,2,3,6,3]
2021-07-28 16:23:27 +0200 <lambdabot> [[1],[2,3,4,5,6],[7,8],[9,10,11],[12,13,14,15,16,17],[18,19,20]]
2021-07-28 16:23:56 +0200 <Axman6> there's also a fun implementation using the state monad now I think od it
2021-07-28 16:23:58 +0200 <Axman6> of*
2021-07-28 16:25:49 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 16:26:39 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 16:27:06 +0200pschorf(~user@c-73-77-28-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 16:27:46 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-07-28 16:31:48 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:32:39 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-07-28 16:33:10 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-07-28 16:35:32 +0200pgib(~textual@173.38.117.81) (Quit: 00 PC LOAD LETTER)
2021-07-28 16:37:16 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-28 16:38:26 +0200 <lechner> Hi, cabal-fmt replaced license: GPL-2.0-or-later with GPL-2.0 even though the cabal user guide states that the license names are from SPDX. Why is that, please? https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-license
2021-07-28 16:40:23 +0200 <lechner> my COPYING file includes the "or later" language
2021-07-28 16:40:56 +0200sergal(~sergal@fsf/member/ezra) (Quit: bye bye)
2021-07-28 16:41:57 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b95049518cd6c04553bbc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:42:06 +0200 <merijn> Probably because the cabal-version of your cabal file is old?
2021-07-28 16:42:15 +0200 <merijn> What version does your cabal file list?
2021-07-28 16:43:30 +0200 <merijn> Note that (as your link states) the SPDX identifiers are only valid since 2.2
2021-07-28 16:43:33 +0200 <lechner> cabal-version: >=1.10
2021-07-28 16:44:20 +0200 <merijn> Right, so that's so ancient it still uses the old, wrong syntax :p
2021-07-28 16:44:44 +0200 <merijn> So you cannot use SPDX expressions until you move to a newer version
2021-07-28 16:44:46 +0200 <lechner> thanks! what's a good version, please?
2021-07-28 16:44:51 +0200 <sshine> 2.2? :P
2021-07-28 16:45:00 +0200 <merijn> 2.2/2.4 are a reasonable compromise
2021-07-28 16:45:11 +0200 <merijn> unless you specifically need newer features
2021-07-28 16:45:21 +0200 <sshine> merijn, so 0.9166666667?
2021-07-28 16:45:50 +0200 <merijn> lechner: Basically, the old "cabal-version" field (implied) that it talked about "version of the cabal tool" due to its ">=1.10" but that's a forward compat nightmare
2021-07-28 16:46:30 +0200 <merijn> lechner: As of 2.0 the cabal version refers to the version of the cabal spec used by the file (and cabal-version *must* be on the first line)
2021-07-28 16:47:39 +0200 <merijn> lechner: This allows the cabal spec to change the behaviour/syntax of fields without invalidating older files (i.e. "cabal-version: 2.0" will always have the same result, even if later versions of the spec use different semantics
2021-07-28 16:47:43 +0200 <merijn> )
2021-07-28 16:51:49 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 16:52:17 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.tooting.irccloud.com)
2021-07-28 16:53:46 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 16:54:07 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
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2021-07-28 16:55:44 +0200Obo(~roberto@70.pool90-171-81.dynamic.orange.es) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-07-28 16:56:15 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.55) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 16:56:34 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-07-28 16:56:58 +0200 <maerwald> -or-later is a disaster anyway, don't use it
2021-07-28 16:57:29 +0200 <merijn> why?
2021-07-28 16:58:15 +0200 <maerwald> not sure that's even legally applicable... what does "or later" mean? Later known versions from the date of the license file creation? Last commit? "Known" versions? Future versions you don't know about?
2021-07-28 16:58:41 +0200 <merijn> Future versions of the GPL license you don't know about
2021-07-28 16:58:47 +0200 <merijn> It's pretty explicit about that
2021-07-28 16:58:50 +0200 <maerwald> that's probably the worst idea
2021-07-28 16:59:05 +0200 <merijn> How so?
2021-07-28 16:59:15 +0200 <maerwald> you give someone you don't know about a backdoor to relicensing your project
2021-07-28 17:00:01 +0200fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2021-07-28 17:00:11 +0200 <merijn> Well, how bad of an idea it is, is directly proportional to your faith/believe in the FSF and people behind the GPL
2021-07-28 17:00:30 +0200 <merijn> If that answer is "not a lot", then, yeah, don't use that
2021-07-28 17:01:00 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:3948:b266:7c2d:ce0c) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-07-28 17:01:30 +0200 <maerwald> I think even if you do trust them, it's still a bad idea
2021-07-28 17:01:31 +0200 <Clint> that is the default in many licenses
2021-07-28 17:01:52 +0200 <maerwald> 1. you don't know about future FSF board, 2. you don't know if they f* up a license
2021-07-28 17:02:14 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.144.80)
2021-07-28 17:02:31 +0200 <maerwald> licenses aren't right or wrong, they're tried in court... you can write a bad license
2021-07-28 17:02:38 +0200 <maerwald> with good intentions
2021-07-28 17:03:24 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 17:03:27 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 17:03:39 +0200 <Clint> and the risk you are trying to mitigate is what
2021-07-28 17:05:15 +0200 <maerwald> someone relicensing my project with a bad license
2021-07-28 17:06:31 +0200 <nshepperd> that can do that under popular licences, such as MIT
2021-07-28 17:06:45 +0200 <nshepperd> err, i can't write
2021-07-28 17:06:54 +0200 <nshepperd> they can do that under many popular licences
2021-07-28 17:07:46 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:07:52 +0200 <maerwald> so?
2021-07-28 17:08:30 +0200 <maerwald> if you don't care, use WTFPL
2021-07-28 17:08:46 +0200 <maerwald> or "-or-later" :)
2021-07-28 17:11:09 +0200Topsi(~Tobias@dyndsl-037-138-065-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2021-07-28 17:13:29 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.161.179.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 17:13:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2021-07-28 17:16:38 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.161.179.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-07-28 17:18:02 +0200dajoer(~david@user/gvx) (Quit: leaving)
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2021-07-28 17:19:30 +0200 <sergio812> @Axman6: thanks for your version, which is indeed easier to grasp despite (or because?) the explicit recursion
2021-07-28 17:19:30 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-07-28 17:27:54 +0200hendursaga(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-07-28 17:32:59 +0200 <Orbstheorem> Is `Data.Pool.Pool` thread-safe?
2021-07-28 17:33:27 +0200rmoe(~rmoe@c-71-236-207-44.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 17:34:10 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@cpe-45-46-140-49.buffalo.res.rr.com)
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2021-07-28 17:37:43 +0200Deide1(~Deide@217.155.19.23)
2021-07-28 17:39:17 +0200 <monochrom> I don't even know about future self.
2021-07-28 17:41:39 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 17:41:41 +0200derelict_(~derelict@user/derelict)
2021-07-28 17:41:58 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com)
2021-07-28 17:42:04 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 17:42:42 +0200sqrt2(~ben@tunnel330957-pt.tunnel.tserv6.fra1.ipv6.he.net) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2021-07-28 17:42:52 +0200sqrt2(~ben@80-108-18-7.cable.dynamic.surfer.at)
2021-07-28 17:42:56 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 17:43:54 +0200 <monochrom> (This is beginning to look like an advertisement scene for BSD3 :) ) [transition from poker face to smiling face] This is why I chose BSD3, so that people in the future don't have to count on the future me for permission to do many very reasonable things. :)
2021-07-28 17:44:53 +0200 <monochrom> Leave a legacy and sweet memory. Choose BSD3.
2021-07-28 17:46:34 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 17:48:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-07-28 17:51:06 +0200 <maerwald> the linux kernel btw is GPL-2.0 only, because they think GPL-3.0 is trash
2021-07-28 17:51:10 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2021-07-28 17:54:17 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
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2021-07-28 17:55:25 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 17:58:37 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7921:180d:4519:92d1)
2021-07-28 17:58:51 +0200Lycurgusprefers license freedom
2021-07-28 18:01:36 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 18:02:06 +0200Lycurgushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/License-free_software since it googles so poorly
2021-07-28 18:03:09 +0200stevenxl(uid133530@id-133530.highgate.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-07-28 18:03:12 +0200 <monochrom> "the software is technically copyrighted according to the Berne convention and as such is proprietary"
2021-07-28 18:03:22 +0200sajith(~sajith@user/sajith) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:03:30 +0200krjst(~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:03:49 +0200oats(~thomas@user/oats) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:03:54 +0200nonzen(~nonzen@user/nonzen) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:03:55 +0200heath(~heath@user/heath) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:13 +0200 <monochrom> I slap on a license because of that. I hope to increase the freedom from the uncertainty of "so what would monochrom actually permit?"
2021-07-28 18:04:16 +0200aravk(~aravk@user/aravk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:17 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@28.red-80-28-169.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:18 +0200energizer(~energizer@user/energizer) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:24 +0200wwalker(~wwalker@platinum.solid-constructs.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:04:25 +0200 <Lycurgus> a sweet technicality that for the free trader / worker
2021-07-28 18:04:30 +0200jolly(~jolly@208.180.97.158) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:05:27 +0200sajith(~sajith@user/sajith)
2021-07-28 18:05:57 +0200 <monochrom> s/slap on a license/slap on a highly permissive license/
2021-07-28 18:06:19 +0200sergio812(~sergio812@lfbn-ren-1-403-102.w2-10.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 18:06:27 +0200krjst(~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001)
2021-07-28 18:06:39 +0200 <dolio> I imagine the point is that putting a permissive license on it permits the wrong organizations to do things with it.
2021-07-28 18:06:44 +0200nonzen(~nonzen@user/nonzen)
2021-07-28 18:07:16 +0200 <Lycurgus> that wasn't my point but it does get to the actual point
2021-07-28 18:07:43 +0200 <Lycurgus> which is that the whole deal is a vast time waster to be filed under clueless about the capitalism
2021-07-28 18:08:41 +0200slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent)
2021-07-28 18:08:52 +0200 <maerwald> license-free software is a great way for me to get in trouble
2021-07-28 18:08:56 +0200 <maerwald> so I won't use it
2021-07-28 18:08:58 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:09:18 +0200 <Lycurgus> with your employer?
2021-07-28 18:09:41 +0200 <maerwald> employer?
2021-07-28 18:09:46 +0200 <Lycurgus> (the trouble)
2021-07-28 18:10:05 +0200 <maerwald> with anyone
2021-07-28 18:10:09 +0200 <Lycurgus> i c
2021-07-28 18:10:27 +0200 <maerwald> suddenly the author changed his mind... now what :>
2021-07-28 18:10:55 +0200 <Lycurgus> you think that doesn't happen?
2021-07-28 18:10:58 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:11:13 +0200 <maerwald> ?
2021-07-28 18:11:20 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 18:11:45 +0200CyrusT[m](~cyrustcru@2001:470:69fc:105::306e)
2021-07-28 18:12:12 +0200 <Lycurgus> that the owning entity changes it's mind about a permissive or license of any kind. Is there no hs product with is not FOSS?
2021-07-28 18:12:30 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 18:12:42 +0200 <Lycurgus> *which is not
2021-07-28 18:12:51 +0200 <geekosaur> how would we know
2021-07-28 18:13:14 +0200oats(~thomas@user/oats)
2021-07-28 18:13:36 +0200energizer(~energizer@user/energizer)
2021-07-28 18:13:39 +0200rmoe(~rmoe@c-71-236-207-44.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 18:14:17 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@28.red-80-28-169.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2021-07-28 18:14:38 +0200 <Lycurgus> yeah there prolly is but it so violates the hs culural ethos thst you'd not publicize. Think i've seen such, in finance and what not
2021-07-28 18:15:27 +0200 <Lycurgus> in some cases secrecy is of the essence
2021-07-28 18:15:43 +0200wwalker(~wwalker@platinum.solid-constructs.com)
2021-07-28 18:15:43 +0200aravk(~aravk@user/aravk)
2021-07-28 18:16:23 +0200maerwaldstares at the wall
2021-07-28 18:17:03 +0200heath(~heath@user/heath)
2021-07-28 18:17:49 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at)
2021-07-28 18:18:17 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 18:18:48 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 18:20:23 +0200werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 18:20:48 +0200shapr(~user@pool-100-36-247-68.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 18:21:25 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 18:22:03 +0200drewefenwick[m](~drewefenw@2001:470:69fc:105::c8c4)
2021-07-28 18:23:00 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> "how compelling"
2021-07-28 18:23:21 +0200Kammao(~Kammao@188.27.130.202)
2021-07-28 18:24:17 +0200 <[exa]> maerwald: license-free software is basically unusuable, the "default" license in most of the world is "don't even think about reading this"
2021-07-28 18:24:58 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-28 18:25:02 +0200 <[exa]> (oh the discussion has more scrollback, let's scroll now... :D )
2021-07-28 18:25:30 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:26:06 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.192)
2021-07-28 18:26:18 +0200 <dolio> You don't need a license to read something.
2021-07-28 18:26:58 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
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2021-07-28 18:39:01 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185)
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2021-07-28 18:40:09 +0200jolly(~jolly@208.180.97.158)
2021-07-28 18:40:15 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-07-28 18:40:43 +0200fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 18:41:00 +0200 <ahri> hi, I was in here the other day asking for help tracking down a big memory leak. my problem is that despite having set up the RTS options and got a .hp file out, it's only capturing the first 5-15 seconds. the process is killed by the kernel after around 5 mins (after some user interaction)
2021-07-28 18:41:24 +0200fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2021-07-28 18:41:45 +0200 <ahri> I tried replicating this in another env and the memory didn't seem to spike as much, however I still get the oddly small .hp file
2021-07-28 18:42:02 +0200funsafe(~funsafe@2601:1c1:4200:938f:32aa:eb39:2110:e2ea) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:42:21 +0200 <ahri> I tried adding StrictData via default-extensions in the .cabal file, and this has not fixed the memory usage and subsequent killing of my process in my live env
2021-07-28 18:42:32 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:43:09 +0200 <ahri> it occurred to me that perhaps my profiling issues are due to compilation flags; the ones I'm using are: -static -optc-static -optl-static -optl-pthread
2021-07-28 18:44:50 +0200 <Lycurgus> what do you mean by "leak"?
2021-07-28 18:44:59 +0200 <ahri> it's been a while since I put this project together so I don't remember the specifics of why I'm using all of those flags, but I think they're probably all to do with wanting a statically linked binary to dump into an alpine docker container
2021-07-28 18:45:00 +0200 <c_wraith> profiling requires cost centers
2021-07-28 18:45:26 +0200 <ahri> I compiled the binary with "stack build --profile"
2021-07-28 18:45:35 +0200 <c_wraith> If you're not adding some manually, you should be asking the compiler to add them.
2021-07-28 18:45:35 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-28 18:46:02 +0200Lycurgussuspects introspection/reflection/examination of the source program is the way unless a FFI is involved
2021-07-28 18:46:28 +0200 <ahri> Lycurgus: I mean I'm not anticipating my webserver using 1TB of memory when loading a 2MB file, so I guess I messed something up fairly spectacularly!
2021-07-28 18:46:34 +0200berberman_(~berberman@user/berberman) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 18:46:35 +0200berberman(~berberman@user/berberman)
2021-07-28 18:46:43 +0200 <c_wraith> wait....
2021-07-28 18:46:45 +0200 <c_wraith> 1TB?
2021-07-28 18:46:53 +0200 <zzz> o.o
2021-07-28 18:46:57 +0200 <c_wraith> How are you getting that number?
2021-07-28 18:47:00 +0200 <ahri> htop
2021-07-28 18:47:06 +0200 <c_wraith> what column?
2021-07-28 18:47:13 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-07-28 18:47:26 +0200 <ahri> VIRT
2021-07-28 18:47:29 +0200 <c_wraith> ignore it
2021-07-28 18:47:31 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 18:47:45 +0200 <c_wraith> VIRT is meaningless with programs compiled by 64-bit GHC on linux
2021-07-28 18:48:06 +0200 <c_wraith> It always tells the OS to reserve 1TB at program startup
2021-07-28 18:48:16 +0200 <c_wraith> that doesn't mean it's *using* it
2021-07-28 18:48:16 +0200 <Lycurgus> yeah that surprised me too
2021-07-28 18:48:24 +0200 <ahri> oh, ok, that explains that then!
2021-07-28 18:48:35 +0200 <ahri> however my process is still being killed off
2021-07-28 18:48:36 +0200 <Lycurgus> the way ghc works they preallocate for the max
2021-07-28 18:48:51 +0200nate3(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 18:48:51 +0200 <Lycurgus> welcome to static everything
2021-07-28 18:49:40 +0200 <c_wraith> It lets ghc create indepent slabs for every common object size
2021-07-28 18:49:41 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 18:49:49 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 18:50:03 +0200 <c_wraith> which is great for speeding up allocation and collection
2021-07-28 18:50:31 +0200 <lechner> the issue may just be an unbounded operation?
2021-07-28 18:50:37 +0200flounders_(~flounders@173.246.200.33) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-28 18:51:15 +0200 <c_wraith> so... if you watch the resident column, does it also explode?
2021-07-28 18:51:52 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@cpe-45-46-140-49.buffalo.res.rr.com) (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-07-28 18:52:12 +0200 <ahri> ok, well the MEM% column also climbs up from around 0% to 75% at which point it's killed and has an exit code of 137
2021-07-28 18:52:39 +0200 <c_wraith> Ok. Still sounds like a memory issue. Just one a 1TB memory issue. :)
2021-07-28 18:52:44 +0200 <c_wraith> *not a
2021-07-28 18:53:29 +0200 <ahri> yeah, the RES column shows it's climbing rapidly
2021-07-28 18:53:52 +0200 <ahri> still, the VIRT thing is good to know for the future!
2021-07-28 18:54:03 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a008:d600:18f2:3421:bac6:8f38) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-07-28 18:54:16 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 18:54:47 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45555.access.ecotel.net)
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2021-07-28 18:55:53 +0200 <ahri> so, about this issue with the .hp file only containing interesting info for the first few seconds - is that a known issue I've stumbled across?
2021-07-28 18:56:44 +0200 <c_wraith> I've never seen it, but I've also never had programs killed by the OOM killer.
2021-07-28 18:56:54 +0200 <ahri> tbh I was kind of excited to have a memory leak as I've been wanting to get a bit of knowledge of profiling in Haskell! but this has me stumped
2021-07-28 18:56:54 +0200 <c_wraith> Any chance you can ctrl-c it before it's killed?
2021-07-28 18:57:34 +0200 <c_wraith> I suspect file buffering might be causing problems
2021-07-28 18:58:15 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-28 18:59:41 +0200norias(~jaredm@c-98-219-195-163.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 19:00:10 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:01:18 +0200 <davean> ahri: Yah, so hp files aren't actively flushed, that would ruin performance. Theres a few options there, but actively killing it is the best one
2021-07-28 19:01:39 +0200 <davean> Termination flushes them, but before that, its whenever the buffer fills.
2021-07-28 19:04:05 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:05:05 +0200 <davean> ahri: Theres a few options here
2021-07-28 19:06:33 +0200 <davean> ahri: specificly, -l might help, that puts it in the event log
2021-07-28 19:08:17 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 19:08:41 +0200fluffyballoon(~fluffybal@pat-verona-h.epic.com)
2021-07-28 19:11:57 +0200 <ahri> I tried with "kill -INT procnumber" which did stop the process but I'm still left with a fairly small .hp file (8MB) and the last line is END_SAMPLE 7.766415 - which I'm taking to mean 7.8 seconds since when I render these into ps/svg files that's all I see
2021-07-28 19:13:08 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-28 19:13:30 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
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2021-07-28 19:14:16 +0200Guest9(~Guest9@43.241.144.38)
2021-07-28 19:14:43 +0200Atum_(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232)
2021-07-28 19:15:56 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 19:15:57 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185)
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2021-07-28 19:16:39 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-28 19:16:59 +0200 <ahri> sorry, I was disconnected
2021-07-28 19:17:23 +0200 <ahri> last thing I said was: "I tried with "kill -INT procnumber" which did stop the process but I'm still left with a fairly small .hp file (8MB) and the last line is END_SAMPLE 7.766415 - which I'm taking to mean 7.8 seconds since when I render these into ps/svg files that's all I see"
2021-07-28 19:17:31 +0200 <ahri> - am I misreading this?
2021-07-28 19:18:36 +0200xaltsc(~xaltsc@user/xaltsc) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:18:49 +0200 <ahri> also, I've added -l and got a 9MB eventlog, along weith a 9MB .hp file, so I'll copy them over and see whether the eventlog recorded more
2021-07-28 19:19:16 +0200xaltsc(~xaltsc@user/xaltsc)
2021-07-28 19:20:24 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@ip98-163-211-112.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Client closed)
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2021-07-28 19:23:57 +0200 <ahri> I'm currently installing threadscope so I can load up the file so I don't yet know how much data I got from this run
2021-07-28 19:26:48 +0200hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:27:26 +0200sergal(~ezra@fsf/member/ezra)
2021-07-28 19:27:26 +0200 <zzz> imagine i want to abstract flip to a class Flippable. how would i write an Arrow instance'
2021-07-28 19:27:29 +0200 <zzz> ?
2021-07-28 19:28:15 +0200 <zzz> and how would i write a (->) instance?
2021-07-28 19:28:38 +0200hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net)
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2021-07-28 19:31:36 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 19:32:15 +0200 <zzz> i might have phrased this weirdly
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2021-07-28 19:45:34 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 19:45:45 +0200 <jay-invariant> zzz: you mean you want something like flip :: Flippable f => (a `f` (b `f` c)) -> (b `f` (a `f` c)) ?
2021-07-28 19:45:48 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4)
2021-07-28 19:46:07 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 19:46:26 +0200 <zzz> i think so
2021-07-28 19:47:32 +0200 <jay-invariant> For (->), I think you could just use instance Flippable (->) where flip = Data.Function.flip
2021-07-28 19:47:59 +0200 <zzz> yeah i was trying to avoid that. im exploring the language for educational purposed
2021-07-28 19:48:07 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-07-28 19:48:10 +0200 <zzz> *purposes
2021-07-28 19:49:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-28 19:50:02 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-28 19:50:34 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Quit: quit)
2021-07-28 19:50:46 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:52:24 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2021-07-28 19:52:33 +0200 <jay-invariant> Do you mean you'd rather not use the built-in flip? Then it's flip f x y = f y x
2021-07-28 19:53:08 +0200 <jay-invariant> and what do you mean by arrow instance?
2021-07-28 19:54:30 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-07-28 19:56:22 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a448-48bd-1-dcd-52b3-4d0e-bb70.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-28 19:59:23 +0200sergal(~sergal@fsf/member/ezra)
2021-07-28 20:00:22 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a448-48bd-1-3852-3dc5-540b-b540.fixed6.kpn.net)
2021-07-28 20:01:03 +0200 <boxscape> Is there a way to define a class and an instance on the same line? I'm trying to define a class and instance together in a CPP macro (I know) and they can't produce newline :(
2021-07-28 20:01:54 +0200 <geekosaur> semicolon?
2021-07-28 20:02:10 +0200 <boxscape> I played around with that a bit but couldn't find a configuration that works
2021-07-28 20:02:16 +0200 <dminuoso> I had the same experience
2021-07-28 20:02:25 +0200 <boxscape> (unless perhaps I used semicolons for the entire module, but I don't want to do that)
2021-07-28 20:02:28 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: I couldnt get it to work either, and ended up writing two macros.
2021-07-28 20:02:44 +0200 <boxscape> hm, okay, thanks
2021-07-28 20:02:49 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-28 20:03:24 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus)
2021-07-28 20:03:48 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:04:37 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-28 20:06:45 +0200 <boxscape> geekosaur: dminuoso : wait semicolon actually does work
2021-07-28 20:06:57 +0200 <boxscape> I surrounded it with braces as well, which didn't work, but semicolon alone is fine
2021-07-28 20:06:58 +0200 <boxscape> nice
2021-07-28 20:07:15 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:07:26 +0200 <boxscape> I think you also need to surround the where block in {}
2021-07-28 20:07:32 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-28 20:07:58 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-07-28 20:09:25 +0200 <ahri> davean: I have my eventlog loaded up in threadscope but I can't see how to use it to work out where the memory allocations are occurring - I've searched around a bit for info on how to do this and most places talk about the .hp files for analysing memory usage. do you have any pointers?
2021-07-28 20:09:49 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: Ah. Good to know.
2021-07-28 20:09:56 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: Can you show an example?
2021-07-28 20:10:28 +0200drd(~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:12:36 +0200 <boxscape> dminuoso: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/arDZGLKW
2021-07-28 20:12:44 +0200 <lbseale> Hi, could you guys help me understand why this Validation type is not a Monad? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validation-1.1.1
2021-07-28 20:13:47 +0200qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@user/qrpnxz) (Quit: Gateway shutdown)
2021-07-28 20:13:57 +0200 <zzz> jay-invariant: ignore the "arrow instance" bit. what i want is a (->) instance
2021-07-28 20:14:03 +0200qrpnxz(~qrpnxz@user/qrpnxz)
2021-07-28 20:14:24 +0200boxscape_(~boxscape_@p4ff0b769.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-07-28 20:15:46 +0200 <jay-invariant> lbseale: It looks like if there are multiple errors in a computation, it accumulates them, rather than returning the first one. So e.g. (Failure e1) <*> (Failure e2) = Failure (e1 <> e2)
2021-07-28 20:16:02 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at)
2021-07-28 20:16:27 +0200 <lbseale> jay-invariant right, what about that behavior makes it not a Monad ?
2021-07-28 20:16:53 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 20:16:55 +0200 <ahri> davean: nm, I've discovered eventlog2html which seems like it might help - I'll carry on on my own for a while and see what I learn. thanks for your help!
2021-07-28 20:17:01 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.169.233.185) (Quit: gtg)
2021-07-28 20:17:12 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2021-07-28 20:17:13 +0200 <jay-invariant> If it were a monad, then how would you implement f >>= g? If f returns an error, you can't run g, since you have no input to feed it.
2021-07-28 20:17:22 +0200 <jay-invariant> So you would have to sequence errors.
2021-07-28 20:17:37 +0200 <jay-invariant> But then the laws about how >>= relates to <*> couldn't be satisfied
2021-07-28 20:18:04 +0200kilolympus(~kilolympu@cpc92710-cmbg20-2-0-cust265.5-4.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-28 20:18:04 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-07-28 20:18:46 +0200 <lbseale> what are the laws relating >>= to <*> ? Is it explained in this SO post https://stackoverflow.com/a/63346617
2021-07-28 20:19:37 +0200 <jay-invariant> Yeah, that equation is what I'm talking about
2021-07-28 20:19:56 +0200 <lbseale> I have to sit with this equation and think about it
2021-07-28 20:20:18 +0200zgrep(~zgrep@user/zgrep) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:20:34 +0200zgrep(~zgrep@user/zgrep)
2021-07-28 20:21:13 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-019.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-28 20:21:33 +0200 <jay-invariant> It might be easier in do notation: u <*> v = do { f <- u; x <- v; pure (f x) }
2021-07-28 20:22:01 +0200 <jay-invariant> Basically, "u <*> v should be equivalent to running u, then running v, then combining the results"
2021-07-28 20:22:38 +0200Deide1(~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:22:51 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: Ahh, the {} are the trick. I see.
2021-07-28 20:22:58 +0200 <dminuoso> Did not even know they were syntactically valid there.
2021-07-28 20:23:00 +0200 <dminuoso> TIL.
2021-07-28 20:23:19 +0200 <boxscape> I think you can use them everywhere `where` occurs
2021-07-28 20:23:21 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 20:23:33 +0200 <jay-invariant> But the Applicative instance for Validate wants to be able to run u and v "in parallel", and combine the errors if there are multiple
2021-07-28 20:23:35 +0200 <boxscape> (and then some)
2021-07-28 20:23:40 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: I take that as a challenge. :-)
2021-07-28 20:23:45 +0200 <boxscape> hehe
2021-07-28 20:23:47 +0200 <monochrom> > let {} in 4
2021-07-28 20:23:49 +0200 <lambdabot> 4
2021-07-28 20:24:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:24:04 +0200 <monochrom> In my let-in example, you can also omit {}.
2021-07-28 20:24:44 +0200 <boxscape> > do let in 4
2021-07-28 20:24:46 +0200 <lambdabot> 4
2021-07-28 20:24:50 +0200 <lbseale> jay-invariant the "parallel" aspect is intuitive to me, so if you ran u and v "in parallel", and one returned an error, you would only get the error
2021-07-28 20:24:53 +0200 <boxscape> (emphatically telling someone that 4 is allowed to come in)
2021-07-28 20:25:10 +0200 <lbseale> there is no way to run them in parallel if one returns an error
2021-07-28 20:25:27 +0200Deide1(~Deide@217.155.19.23)
2021-07-28 20:26:28 +0200zyklotomic(~ethan@2604:a880:800:10::79f:8001)
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2021-07-28 20:31:11 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-07-28 20:31:14 +0200 <lbseale> ok this is helping me, thanks jay-invariant
2021-07-28 20:31:24 +0200 <jay-invariant> lbseale, no problem
2021-07-28 20:33:02 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-07-28 20:46:55 +0200 <sshine> does anyone use ElasticSearch? it seems that the bloodhound packages has V1 and V5 support, but there's V6 and V7 in the wild. there's a stalled discussion on how to share data types to avoid copying across once more, but it's 2-3 years old.
2021-07-28 20:46:57 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34)
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2021-07-28 20:50:21 +0200bruceleewees(~bruceleew@83.24.236.64.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
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2021-07-28 20:53:57 +0200 <zyklotomic> what is a good data structure for a stack
2021-07-28 20:54:35 +0200 <pavonia> [a]
2021-07-28 20:54:36 +0200 <zyklotomic> i was considering lists, but it is in a strict State monad
2021-07-28 20:54:47 +0200 <zyklotomic> that ruins it slightly right
2021-07-28 20:54:59 +0200 <dolio> How?
2021-07-28 20:55:23 +0200 <zyklotomic> everytime i append, that would be O(n) if i understand correctly
2021-07-28 20:55:37 +0200 <zyklotomic> but if it is lazy, i can defer the appending into one go
2021-07-28 20:55:43 +0200 <dolio> You don't append to a stack.
2021-07-28 20:55:51 +0200epolanski(uid312403@id-312403.brockwell.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-07-28 20:56:01 +0200 <zyklotomic> oh... you put it in the front
2021-07-28 20:56:03 +0200 <zyklotomic> ?
2021-07-28 20:56:09 +0200 <pavonia> Yes
2021-07-28 20:56:22 +0200 <zyklotomic> lol..... ohhhh
2021-07-28 20:56:42 +0200 <zyklotomic> thanks dolio, pavonia
2021-07-28 20:56:58 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-28 20:57:25 +0200 <boxscape> Hm I was thinking making a few CPP macros would be faster than writing template haskell, but I'm starting to regret that
2021-07-28 20:57:25 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 20:57:46 +0200 <boxscape> apparently having an apostrophe or not in front of a macro (inside a macro) changing whether that macro is expanded or not
2021-07-28 21:00:09 +0200epolanski(uid312403@id-312403.brockwell.irccloud.com)
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2021-07-28 21:02:08 +0200 <pavonia> It probably treats that as char literal
2021-07-28 21:02:25 +0200fossdd(~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd)
2021-07-28 21:02:55 +0200jess(~jess@libera/staff/jess) ()
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2021-07-28 21:04:40 +0200 <boxscape> hmm perhaps, I wouldn't expect that a priori since it's part of a name (Lens')
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2021-07-28 23:32:18 +0200 <koz> Does anyone know how to get --pattern for tasty to behave? I tried something like --pattern='$2 == Foo && $NF == Bar', but that's not acceptable to it for whatever reason.
2021-07-28 23:32:27 +0200 <koz> This is inside of --benchmark-options="...".
2021-07-28 23:32:35 +0200 <koz> Am I being hurt by Bash quoting or something?
2021-07-28 23:34:58 +0200OscarH(~OscarH@97e0e7ba.skybroadband.com)
2021-07-28 23:35:00 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-28 23:35:04 +0200 <geekosaur> more likkely by --benchmark-options not itself supporting quoting, so --pattern gets the single quotes too and doesn't know what to do with them
2021-07-28 23:35:25 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@user/sheepduck)
2021-07-28 23:35:45 +0200 <koz> Hmm, it seems if I do --benchmark-options='--pattern="$2 = \"Foo\" && $NF == \"Bar\"" ... ', that works.
2021-07-28 23:35:55 +0200 <koz> Feels like a Bash problem, sigh.
2021-07-28 23:36:07 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-28 23:36:24 +0200 <geekosaur> hm, possibly
2021-07-28 23:37:46 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-185-69-244-184.mrsn.at) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
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2021-07-28 23:39:56 +0200 <geekosaur> hm, yes. your outer quotes qre "" so the uinner ones are ignored and the $s are expanded
2021-07-28 23:41:38 +0200 <koz> Le sigh... Bash quoting is one of the most annoying things.
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2021-07-28 23:42:05 +0200 <monochrom> All quoting and escaping mechanisms don't scale.
2021-07-28 23:42:27 +0200 <koz> Some just don't scale more than others.
2021-07-28 23:43:48 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-07-28 23:44:17 +0200euouae(~euouae@user/euouae)
2021-07-28 23:45:07 +0200 <euouae> Hello I have a question about Haskell and HPC. I've heard that Haskell does not have very good support for OpenMPI. Why is that? It seems like a relatively simple C API. How come there is no decent FFI for it?
2021-07-28 23:46:06 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Client Quit)
2021-07-28 23:50:07 +0200 <koz> euouae: Nobody wrote any bindings I guess.
2021-07-28 23:50:13 +0200 <koz> You could be the first!
2021-07-28 23:51:10 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-28 23:51:28 +0200 <euouae> Hehe :) ok. There are some bindings; but when I asked last time about 'distributed computing' I was told that progress has stalled in Haskell
2021-07-28 23:51:40 +0200 <euouae> For example there is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mpi-hs
2021-07-28 23:51:46 +0200 <koz> euouae: 'Progress' and 'stalled' are fairly relative terms.
2021-07-28 23:51:58 +0200 <koz> (and 'distributed computing' could mean a lot of things)
2021-07-28 23:52:20 +0200 <euouae> Yes and yes, I guess I just wanted to ask if HPC is possible in Haskell
2021-07-28 23:52:28 +0200 <hpc> i am possible
2021-07-28 23:52:30 +0200 <koz> Possible? Yes.
2021-07-28 23:52:33 +0200 <koz> Also that.
2021-07-28 23:52:44 +0200 <euouae> lol
2021-07-28 23:52:50 +0200 <monochrom> 50 shades of possibleness.
2021-07-28 23:53:33 +0200 <monochrom> Sometimes "possible" means "there are language features and libraries I can just use right away".
2021-07-28 23:53:55 +0200 <koz> Surely '50 Shades of Possibility?".
2021-07-28 23:54:06 +0200vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2021-07-28 23:54:07 +0200 <koz> s/?"./"?/
2021-07-28 23:54:20 +0200 <monochrom> I have considered that. It doesn't sound right.
2021-07-28 23:54:23 +0200 <koz> (mismatched quotes but ehh)
2021-07-28 23:54:29 +0200 <koz> I think it sounds better than 'possibleness'.
2021-07-28 23:54:51 +0200 <monochrom> Well, this one is about 50 different meanings of "possible", not 50 cases.
2021-07-28 23:55:29 +0200 <koz> 50 Shades of Natural Language.
2021-07-28 23:57:59 +0200 <monochrom> My latest gripe on people bending natural language is "literate programming".
2021-07-28 23:58:38 +0200 <monochrom> Apparently, people have watered down literate programming to just mean inverted comment-vs-code syntax, such as our *.lhs and emacs org mode.
2021-07-28 23:59:03 +0200 <euouae> No idea what literate programming is or how it works
2021-07-28 23:59:35 +0200 <euouae> There was never an explanation of how the comments are stripped and the source fed to the compiler, it was always some wishy washy 'this is revolutionary' article