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2026-04-18 05:54:00 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> kinda confused to learn that Dhall doesn't have text equality...
2026-04-18 05:54:11 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> but Natural/Integer equality. What's the difference lol
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2026-04-18 06:41:47 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Maybe should give Nickel a try
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2026-04-18 06:48:00 +0000 <mags_> oops
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2026-04-18 07:14:12 +0000 <gentauro> maerwald: so you can't compare strings?
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2026-04-18 07:29:55 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> yes
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2026-04-18 07:36:26 +0000 <yushyin> afair, that was a deliberate design decision
2026-04-18 07:36:39 +0000 <yushyin> "The main reason for forbidding Text equality comparisons is to prevent people from parsing Text values at all, in order to encourage them to use more structured data types instead." -- https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-haskell/issues/72#issuecomment-309074784
2026-04-18 07:37:04 +0000 <yushyin> whether this is sensible or not is beyond my expertise :D
2026-04-18 07:38:40 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> that makes no sense
2026-04-18 07:39:12 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> because I can hack around it by encoding sum types as integers and doing equality checks on them
2026-04-18 07:39:57 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> it's just that everything looks horrible
2026-04-18 07:40:20 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> Dhall provides extension points to introduce your own built-ins, so if you are using Dhall as a library, you can extend it to add a Text/equal built-in
2026-04-18 07:40:35 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> docs have an example: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/dhall-1.42.3/docs/Dhall-Tutorial.html#g:23
2026-04-18 07:41:06 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> aha, now I have to fork dhall?
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2026-04-18 07:43:03 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> no fork needed, you write your custom normalizer in your application code and pass it as an argument to the Dhall library functions rather than using the implicit default one
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2026-04-18 07:44:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> Say, you use "Dhall.inputWithSettings <yourSettings>", rather than "Dhall.input"
2026-04-18 07:44:50 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> What application code? I want to use it to generate yaml. Now everyone who wants to use my config has to build their own dhall binary.
2026-04-18 07:47:07 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 07:48:38 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> Ah, I see. This solution assumed you are using Dhall in your application to parse config, hence I qualified my initial response with "if you are using Dhall as a library"
2026-04-18 07:48:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> In your case I don't think there is much you can do
2026-04-18 07:49:19 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Also, the Map interface... oh dear
2026-04-18 07:49:50 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> keys have to be text (but guess what... you can't compare text, lol)...
2026-04-18 07:49:56 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> you can't do lookup even
2026-04-18 07:50:30 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> no sensible way to do updates (e.g. to do deeply nested merges)
2026-04-18 07:51:54 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> it seems the only value it brings is a little bit of string interpolation... and that's all
2026-04-18 07:52:51 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:c6f2:203e:25ca:637b) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-04-18 07:52:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> using functions like fold/map with all the verbose type annotations looks super confusing too
2026-04-18 07:53:42 +0000xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:73ce:e440:32fb:1d76)
2026-04-18 07:56:23 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-04-18 07:57:29 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> maerwald: yeah this gets annoying super fast. There is a function to do function composition ("compose"), but it is pretty much useless because you need to explicitly provide the type of both sides and also the return type...
2026-04-18 08:00:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> What I'm trying to do is to have a flat description of data that gets turned into a deeply nested map... but you have to handle value updates for collisions
2026-04-18 08:00:49 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> I don't need a turing complete language for that
2026-04-18 08:01:19 +0000 <haskellbridge> <ozkutuk> maerwald: I am confused by this though, the Prelude functions seem to be general over the key type?
2026-04-18 08:04:32 +0000puke(~puke@user/puke) (Quit: puke)
2026-04-18 08:11:03 +0000ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-04-18 08:11:24 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> hm, maybe I did something wrong then
2026-04-18 08:12:49 +0000ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ec
2026-04-18 08:13:28 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Error: Wrong type of function argument
2026-04-18 08:13:28 +0000 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/uAHVWSKXlolUhvmlYrnhpPBa/dt9xjbb6wZM (3 lines)
2026-04-18 08:13:40 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> This is what I get when using "keyValue" with a sum type
2026-04-18 08:13:46 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> so it seems to expect Text
2026-04-18 08:14:32 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> https://store.dhall-lang.org/Prelude-v23.1.0/Map/keyValue.dhall.html
2026-04-18 08:14:35 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> yes it expects Text
2026-04-18 08:17:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-04-18 08:23:52 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> you can create a record "{ mapKey = SomeUnionType, mapValue = "foo" }" but it seems it won't recognize it as an actual Map then
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2026-04-18 08:51:08 +0000 <gentauro> yushyin: :o
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2026-04-18 10:21:40 +0000Milan_Vanca(~milan@88.212.61.169)
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2026-04-18 10:22:55 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@85-156-32-112.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
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2026-04-18 10:24:42 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> Hello guyz, this might be offtopic but in the end it is related to haskell. Imaigne program you parallelize it and gain speedup... Then some time later the same program parallelized gained slowdown. My question is could different CPU show slowdown?
2026-04-18 10:28:17 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
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2026-04-18 10:30:08 +0000raelie(~raelie@user/raelie) ()
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2026-04-18 10:34:55 +0000 <darkling> Yes. Just off the top of my head, there's memory bandwidth and SMT that could affect the parallelism. There's undoubtedly a bunch of other reasons that I haven't thought of yet.
2026-04-18 10:35:24 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
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2026-04-18 10:49:25 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> Ah paralelization is hard...
2026-04-18 10:50:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-04-18 11:19:39 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> I have found yet another interesting fact same CPU idle, seq = 0.6s, par = 0.3s, CPU busy seq = 2s, par= 4,3s
2026-04-18 11:20:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 11:20:33 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> I would expect still 2x speedup so when CPU is busy par should be 1s. But it is not... interesting
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2026-04-18 11:27:26 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2026-04-18 11:37:37 +0000hsw(~hsw@106.104.103.195) hsw
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2026-04-18 11:46:57 +0000 <jreicher> Milan_Vanca: did you add any locking or resource contention to introduce the parallelisation?
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2026-04-18 11:47:41 +0000 <gentauro> Milan_Vanca: from uni days, CPU's aren't all what you expect (except the PlayStation 3 cell processor). Most parts of CPU are used by branch-prediction
2026-04-18 11:47:57 +0000gentaurothis is a longer story and not really related to Haskell as you say
2026-04-18 11:51:17 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-04-18 11:51:58 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> jreicher: I am using from Control.Parallel.Strategies, rseq, parList..
2026-04-18 11:52:55 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
2026-04-18 11:53:16 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> gentauro: I get that there is branch-prediction and choosing wrong branch slows execution down. However other processes don't "poision" branch prediction for other processes right?
2026-04-18 11:53:31 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> Or do they?
2026-04-18 11:53:57 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 11:57:35 +0000vgtw_(~vgtw@user/vgtw) vgtw
2026-04-18 11:57:35 +0000 <Milan_Vanca> gentauro: And what do you mean by "except the PlayStation 3 cell processor"?
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2026-04-18 12:09:47 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
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2026-04-18 12:18:10 +0000lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths
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2026-04-18 12:25:55 +0000 <yin> it breaks my heart having to discard all my elegant purely functional solutions with knot tying and all that good stuff
2026-04-18 12:26:30 +0000 <yin> when the time to optimize comes
2026-04-18 12:27:47 +0000jreicher(~joelr@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb)
2026-04-18 12:27:48 +0000 <yin> import Data.Vector here I come...
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2026-04-18 14:59:43 +0000 <gentauro> yin: that should be the compilers job
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2026-04-18 16:09:58 +0000 <yin> gentauro: i wish ghc was that smart
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2026-04-18 16:26:09 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2026-04-18 16:29:27 +0000 <juri_> Has anyone here worked with intelli-monad? I'm having trouble getting it to function, and it has no real built in debugging.
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2026-04-18 16:42:03 +0000 <gentauro> yin: a good example on "nice code" transforming into monstrocity -> https://chrispenner.ca/posts/wc :'(
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2026-04-18 17:21:42 +0000 <janus> gentauro: that's not what Chris Penner says though. He says in the article that he considers the final version very readable
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2026-04-18 17:24:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 17:24:21 +0000 <monochrom> I have too lazy to read that post. But supposedly you can always have your own judgment on the code, despite what the author self-declares.
2026-04-18 17:25:40 +0000 <janus> i can see why streaming is seen as complicated. i've never used it in anger
2026-04-18 17:26:00 +0000 <janus> but it seems like a useful abstraction at some point
2026-04-18 17:26:42 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:bd40:ea59:f230:b9cd) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-04-18 17:27:05 +0000 <janus> and it's a subject we keep having to mention because lazy IO is a poor man's streaming, i think?
2026-04-18 17:27:55 +0000 <janus> gentauro: but do you actually think lazy IO was a mistake?
2026-04-18 17:28:30 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-04-18 17:29:25 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah l use lazy IO, but only because I only need toy programs. :)
2026-04-18 17:29:48 +0000 <monochrom> aka scripts
2026-04-18 17:30:03 +0000 <monochrom> (shots fired haha)
2026-04-18 17:30:08 +0000 <janus> sure it's convenient, it's just unfortunate when the stdlib provides foot guns
2026-04-18 17:30:27 +0000 <janus> i think your view is common. it's pragmatic
2026-04-18 17:30:39 +0000 <monochrom> Alternatively, I really understand lazy evaluation, so lazy IO doesn't bite me.
2026-04-18 17:31:20 +0000 <janus> heh i like that, that is the GOAT perspective
2026-04-18 17:31:59 +0000 <janus> like Lamport dressing like a clown and saying "why should you trust me?", then changing clothes and saying "I won the turing award"
2026-04-18 17:32:10 +0000 <monochrom> haha
2026-04-18 17:34:44 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 17:34:57 +0000 <monochrom> I recognize that beyond toys and scripts, lazy IO requires too much thinking and re-thinking to tame, even if you understand lazy evaluation perfectly, e.g., it's fragile (tiny changes to your pure FP code implies big changes to I/O timing). Streaming libraries give you much better predictability and peace of mind.
2026-04-18 17:39:09 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2026-04-18 17:41:26 +0000marinelli(~weechat@brrr.fr) marinelli
2026-04-18 17:44:30 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2026-04-18 17:44:51 +0000 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Depends on the streaming library
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2026-04-18 18:47:50 +0000 <gentauro> janus: lazy IO is the best
2026-04-18 18:48:34 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-04-18 18:49:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-04-18 18:49:25 +0000 <janus> gentauro: did you see Tweag is paying to remove acid-state from hackage-server?
2026-04-18 18:50:50 +0000 <janus> (there is actually a SEGWAY between these topics, as we had a problem with referencial transparency and acid-state, it encoded the module location to disk)
2026-04-18 18:51:02 +0000 <gentauro> janus: you can't really call the final solution "Haskell code" -> https://github.com/composewell/streamly/blob/master/src/Streamly/Internal/System/IOVec/Type.hsc
2026-04-18 18:51:29 +0000 <EvanR> you can pay to remove things from hackage?
2026-04-18 18:51:52 +0000 <gentauro> FFI'ing to C/C++ isn't really Haskell
2026-04-18 18:51:56 +0000 <janus> EvanR: you have to pay! who would do the work without payment?
2026-04-18 18:52:14 +0000 <gentauro> if that's the approach, well, then we are no better than "wrappy", ups, I mean Python
2026-04-18 18:52:15 +0000 <janus> gentauro: ah right, that is an age old issue with the GHC ecosystem i suppose
2026-04-18 18:52:52 +0000 <janus> EvanR: as part of the work, a new storage backend must be added, of course
2026-04-18 18:53:01 +0000 <gentauro> janus: corner-cutting in the name of "pragmatism" (aka sloppiness)
2026-04-18 18:53:10 +0000 <EvanR> FFIing to C isn't really haskell so, anything that uses Integer (gmp) isn't haskell!
2026-04-18 18:53:20 +0000 <gentauro> EvanR: correct
2026-04-18 18:53:26 +0000 <EvanR> lol
2026-04-18 18:54:40 +0000 <mauke> segue?
2026-04-18 18:55:03 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2026-04-18 18:55:40 +0000 <gentauro> janus: is Tweag still doing Haskell?
2026-04-18 18:55:54 +0000 <janus> mauke: yes sry
2026-04-18 18:56:55 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Client Quit)
2026-04-18 18:56:58 +0000 <janus> gentauro: yes, look at their blog: https://www.tweag.io/tag/haskell
2026-04-18 18:57:22 +0000 <gentauro> hmmm, I thought they dropped all FP when Mathieu Boespflug sold the company
2026-04-18 18:57:28 +0000 <gentauro> but good to know they still at it :)
2026-04-18 18:57:56 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2026-04-18 18:59:17 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 18:59:46 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 19:01:11 +0000 <gentauro> I guess there is still a spot for my (low-level) F# parquet/delta-lake lib (with pql {…} and dql {…} computations expressions …). I never understood the "simplistic" approach to wrapping stuff for the sake of wrapping stuff. At that point, just use Java …
2026-04-18 19:01:17 +0000 <gentauro> anyway :-\
2026-04-18 19:04:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-04-18 19:08:04 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-04-18 19:11:42 +0000gentauroforgot posting link -> https://www.tweag.io/blog/2022-12-08-creating-a-Delta-Lake-in-Haskell-with-Sparkle/
2026-04-18 19:15:17 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-04-18 20:06:51 +0000xal_(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) xal
2026-04-18 20:14:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-04-18 20:20:10 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2026-04-18 20:30:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-04-18 20:37:12 +0000 <yin> pure $ unsafePerformIO $ peek nullPtr :: IO Word
2026-04-18 20:38:00 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 20:38:37 +0000 <int-e> you can use `unsafeInterleaveIO` if you're doing pure . unsafePerformIO in the IO monad
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2026-04-18 20:48:55 +0000haritzondo(~hrtz@140.228.70.141) (Changing host)
2026-04-18 20:48:55 +0000haritzondo(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
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2026-04-18 20:50:48 +0000xal_(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-04-18 20:52:01 +0000xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) xal
2026-04-18 20:53:17 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2026-04-18 20:57:01 +0000haritzondoharitz
2026-04-18 20:57:06 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 20:58:04 +0000jmcantrell_(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2026-04-18 21:00:47 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 21:01:22 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
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2026-04-18 21:04:09 +0000eugenrh(~eugenrh@user/eugenrh) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.3)
2026-04-18 21:05:55 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
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2026-04-18 21:17:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 21:19:36 +0000lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths
2026-04-18 21:21:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-04-18 21:23:50 +0000vols(~vols@user/vols) vols
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2026-04-18 21:31:53 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 21:32:41 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 21:33:06 +0000malte(~malte@mal.tc) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2026-04-18 21:37:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-04-18 21:39:01 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2026-04-18 21:39:09 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2026-04-18 21:46:35 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:b5ec:efdf:69e2:8f88)
2026-04-18 21:46:35 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:b5ec:efdf:69e2:8f88) (Changing host)
2026-04-18 21:46:35 +0000arandombit(~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit
2026-04-18 21:48:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 21:53:07 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-04-18 21:53:23 +0000Square3(~Square@user/square) Square
2026-04-18 21:55:03 +0000target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving)
2026-04-18 21:58:27 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:bd40:ea59:f230:b9cd) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-04-18 22:02:01 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au)
2026-04-18 22:03:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-04-18 22:06:12 +0000uli-fem(~uli-fem@14-202-246-84.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-04-18 22:10:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2026-04-18 22:14:00 +0000ouilemur(~jgmerritt@user/ouilemur) ouilemur
2026-04-18 22:21:29 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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