| 2026-02-24 00:04:22 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 00:08:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 00:11:25 +0100 | Anarchos | (~Anarchos@91-161-254-16.subs.proxad.net) (Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!) |
| 2026-02-24 00:13:32 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Quit: peterbecich) |
| 2026-02-24 00:18:08 +0100 | <Leary> | geekosaur: I got two of them revised eariler, but now the refined invocation looks like this: <https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/52377ecaa9e9090c7e26b91945f6d587>. I'm not sure I have it in me. <.< |
| 2026-02-24 00:19:44 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 00:24:00 +0100 | v0id_7 | (~v0id_7@user/v0id-7:62772) (Quit: whatever u sick fcks) |
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| 2026-02-24 00:30:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | mm, maybe the right thing to do in that case is put the correct base bound in the cabal file and maintainer-revision it down on Hackage until the coast is clear |
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| 2026-02-24 04:21:26 +0100 | Logio | (em@kapsi.fi) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 04:21:46 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-02-24 04:25:06 +0100 | <Leary> | Upper bounds aside, `cabal check` doesn't seem to care about lower bounds. Does that mean I can give up on the archaeology necessary to find them? |
| 2026-02-24 04:25:12 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:27:37 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) |
| 2026-02-24 04:27:49 +0100 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
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| 2026-02-24 04:28:36 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life |
| 2026-02-24 04:29:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 04:34:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | I usually do. I set my lower bounds to be what I happen to have when I start the project. Then I don't change them until someone wants it changed. |
| 2026-02-24 04:39:28 +0100 | <Leary> | Well, in that case you're setting them conservatively. I was more wondering about the opposite strategy of omitting them entirely. |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:33 +0100 | werneta | (~werneta@71.83.160.242) werneta |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:40:40 +0100 | xff0x_ | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
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| 2026-02-24 04:44:13 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-02-24 04:44:59 +0100 | xff0x_ | xff0x |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:00 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:11 +0100 | <monochrom> | Then one day you will run into something like this recent example: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/breaking-changes-in-time-1-15-ghc-9-14/13711 |
| 2026-02-24 04:45:53 +0100 | <monochrom> | (time-1.15 adds new pattern synonyms that name-clashes with someone's existing code that assumes <=1.14) |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:26 +0100 | APic | (apic@apic.name) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:26 +0100 | <monochrom> | So if you set a lower bound like <=1.14 or 1.13, the worst that can happen is cabal downloads and builds an appropriate version of time. If you don't set a lower bound, now you have to set a lower bound. |
| 2026-02-24 04:47:38 +0100 | APic | (apic@apic.name) APic |
| 2026-02-24 04:55:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 04:59:57 +0100 | yahb2 | (~yahb2@user/tomsmeding/bot/yahb2) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:00:19 +0100 | ChanServ | +v yahb2 |
| 2026-02-24 05:00:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:08:53 +0100 | <Leary> | In that particular case, I think the actual issue is importing without concern for namespace pollution. Also, that's an upper bound? |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:15 +0100 | <Leary> | Reflecting things a bit, your point seems to be that an older version of a dependency (than is implicitly assumed) may be used to build the package, causing it to fail. |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:40 +0100 | <Leary> | But the alternative of refusing to build what would have succeeded doesn't really seem better; either way the bound is wrong and you're relying on intrepid explorers to eventually correct it. |
| 2026-02-24 05:09:55 +0100 | arahael | (~wetfoot@user/arahael) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:11:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 05:17:42 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:18:07 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ec |
| 2026-02-24 05:18:18 +0100 | <monochrom> | Oh oops yeah that's an upper bound. |
| 2026-02-24 05:20:06 +0100 | eL_Bart0- | (eL_Bart02@dietunichtguten.org) (Server closed connection) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:20:33 +0100 | lbseale | (~quassel@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
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| 2026-02-24 05:26:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 05:31:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ithis is a long-running argument, and there are no real solutions because you can't reliably infer upper or lower bounds; you or someone else must experiment or actively test |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:46 +0100 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:49 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and leaving either off forces others to do it for you by their tripping over it |
| 2026-02-24 05:32:54 +0100 | eso | (a0662dfd5e@2a03:6000:1812:100::1266) jeso |
| 2026-02-24 05:42:01 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 05:42:51 +0100 | Athas | (athas@2a01:7c8:aaac:1cf:acb7:4f2b:6164:21c9) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 05:43:03 +0100 | Athas | (athas@2a01:7c8:aaac:1cf:10a0:cce8:21cf:53aa) |
| 2026-02-24 05:43:37 +0100 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.221) |
| 2026-02-24 05:46:46 +0100 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@38.175.72.111) (Server closed connection) |
| 2026-02-24 05:47:32 +0100 | doyougnu | (~doyougnu@38.175.72.111) doyougnu |
| 2026-02-24 05:49:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:52:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 05:58:16 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 05:58:48 +0100 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex |
| 2026-02-24 06:07:42 +0100 | defragger | (~random@i5C742DFE.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:08:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 06:19:12 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 06:19:28 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 06:23:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 06:28:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:28:57 +0100 | jtnuttall | (~jeremy@user/jeremyn) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:29:34 +0100 | lol__ | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:4d29:e35:f98e:367a) |
| 2026-02-24 06:34:00 +0100 | lol_ | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:9441:c46b:69b3:7076) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:38:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 06:40:31 +0100 | emaczen | (~user@user/emaczen) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:43:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 06:50:57 +0100 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
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| 2026-02-24 06:53:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 07:03:04 +0100 | p3n_ | (~p3n@217.198.124.246) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 07:03:34 +0100 | p3n | (~p3n@2a00:19a0:3:7c:0:d9c6:7cf6:1) p3n |
| 2026-02-24 07:05:55 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:09:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:13:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:17:29 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) |
| 2026-02-24 07:24:33 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:26:09 +0100 | Googulator17 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 07:26:15 +0100 | Googulator33 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 07:29:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:38:10 +0100 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 07:40:35 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:44:34 +0100 | Googulator33 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 07:44:35 +0100 | Googulator78 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-499d-1c5a-0e4b-5795-d7e3.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
| 2026-02-24 07:45:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:51:41 +0100 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli) |
| 2026-02-24 07:54:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 07:59:21 +0100 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 07:59:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:00:47 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-02-24 08:08:15 +0100 | <gentauro> | adding this to a file works -> `{-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wall -Werror -fpackage-trust #-}`. However, this does not: `{-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wall -Werror -fpackage-trust -trust=base #-}`. |
| 2026-02-24 08:08:39 +0100 | gentauro | error msg: "Unknown flag in {-# OPTIONS_GHC #-} pragma: -trust=base". |
| 2026-02-24 08:09:08 +0100 | <gentauro> | anybody know how to pass trusted packages in the `OPTIONS_GHC` pragma? |
| 2026-02-24 08:10:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:36 +0100 | <gentauro> | there seem to be `GHC` cli flags for that -> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/safe_haskell.html#package-trust |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:51 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 08:11:53 +0100 | <gentauro> | however, they don't work with `runghc` :-\ |
| 2026-02-24 08:15:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:20:09 +0100 | <gentauro> | Is there built-in logic in Haskell such as in F# `Enum.GetValues(typeof<tags>)` where you can get a sequence of the values for an (enum) datatype? For example for `data FooBarEnum = Foo | Bar deriving (Eq, Show)`. |
| 2026-02-24 08:20:29 +0100 | gentauro | which would result in [ Foo, Bar ] |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:44 +0100 | <Leary> | @let data FooBarEnum = Foo | Bar deriving (Eq, Show, Enum) |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:46 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:56 +0100 | <Leary> | > [minBound .. maxBound] :: [FooBarEnum] |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:57 +0100 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Bounded FooBarEnum’ |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:57 +0100 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘minBound’ |
| 2026-02-24 08:21:58 +0100 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: minBound |
| 2026-02-24 08:22:24 +0100 | <Leary> | Ah, Forgot to derive `Bounded`. Well, you get the idea. |
| 2026-02-24 08:23:04 +0100 | <Leary> | > [minBound .. maxBound] :: [FooBarEnum] |
| 2026-02-24 08:23:05 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [Foo,Bar] |
| 2026-02-24 08:24:47 +0100 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
| 2026-02-24 08:25:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:27:01 +0100 | <gentauro> | Leary: now that was nifty <3 |
| 2026-02-24 08:27:32 +0100 | <gentauro> | many thx |
| 2026-02-24 08:29:04 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2026-02-24 08:29:48 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:dc79:6396:7e42:d4e3:36f9) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 08:30:20 +0100 | img | (~img@user/img) img |
| 2026-02-24 08:30:52 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:36:31 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 08:37:13 +0100 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2026-02-24 08:40:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:44:04 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 08:47:54 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:52:41 +0100 | jj | (~apropos@node-1w7jr9pqogh9vahu1mvneock5.ipv6.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 08:55:47 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 08:56:33 +0100 | jj | (~apropos@node-1w7jr9pqogh9vahu1mvneock5.ipv6.telus.net) omentic |
| 2026-02-24 09:00:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 09:02:09 +0100 | chele | (~chele@user/chele) chele |
| 2026-02-24 09:06:23 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:dc79:6396:7e42:d4e3:36f9) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 09:11:10 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-02-24 09:37:54 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2026-02-24 09:50:43 +0100 | srk | (~sorki@user/srk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 09:51:37 +0100 | emmanuelux | (~em@user/emmanuelux) emmanuelux |
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| 2026-02-24 09:52:36 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |
| 2026-02-24 10:06:08 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer |
| 2026-02-24 10:07:46 +0100 | emmanuelux | (~em@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: bye) |
| 2026-02-24 10:13:07 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
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| 2026-02-24 10:15:47 +0100 | Alex_test_ | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
| 2026-02-24 10:15:54 +0100 | jreicher | (~joelr@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb) |
| 2026-02-24 10:17:33 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:18:24 +0100 | jreicher | (~joelr@user/jreicher) jreicher |
| 2026-02-24 10:20:15 +0100 | Alex_test_ | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:25:44 +0100 | Alex_delenda_est | (~al_test@178.34.163.162) |
| 2026-02-24 10:27:08 +0100 | sp1ff | (~user@2601:1c2:4701:7850::8cd) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:27 +0100 | <dminuoso> | % :t minBound |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:27 +0100 | <yahb2> | minBound :: Bounded a => a |
| 2026-02-24 10:31:58 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Curious, why is Ord not a superclass of Bounded? |
| 2026-02-24 10:32:19 +0100 | <dminuoso> | What does `minimum/maximum` even mean in the absence of an ordering? |
| 2026-02-24 10:32:50 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 10:33:40 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps it makes sense that an Enum has a first and a last value for enumeration, but while it has an ordering compatible with that Enum instance, that ordering makes no semantical sense and is hence not defined? |
| 2026-02-24 10:33:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | but then you could argue that you should give that Ord instance anyway |
| 2026-02-24 10:34:47 +0100 | <humasect> | it says right in the first sentence https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/base-4.22.0.0/docs/Data-Bounded.html |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:05 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | lol, dminuoso ^ |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:24 +0100 | tomsmeding | should have thought of that |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:32 +0100 | <dminuoso> | humasect: Yes, and its not much of an explanation. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:43 +0100 | <dminuoso> | It reads nonsensical to me. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:48 +0100 | <humasect> | perhaps look into its meaning, disassemble it to understanding |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:50 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: not every ordering is total |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:54 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Oh. |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:54 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | partial orders are a thing |
| 2026-02-24 10:35:55 +0100 | <humasect> | how to learn ? |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:09 +0100 | sp1ff | (~user@c-24-20-218-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) sp1ff |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:22 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Is there a notion of `minimum` in a partially ordered set, then? |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:30 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Im not even sure what that would mean. |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:32 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: But Bounded doesn't deal with just any partial order. |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:43 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: yes, a lower bound :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(order) |
| 2026-02-24 10:36:44 +0100 | <__monty__> | It's restricted to partial orders that have a single lower and upper bound. |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:15 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | sure, but even those need not have a total ordering |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps "lower bound" is not the technically correct term here |
| 2026-02-24 10:37:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (but then, it's probably "minimum", which would not have helped dminuoso) |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:17 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: all subset of a given set S are partially ordered by inclusion, and they have a unique minimum ({}) and maximum (S), but they are not totally ordered |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:47 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Okay so what you're saying is that Bounded is just synonmous for Lattice? |
| 2026-02-24 10:38:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps? |
| 2026-02-24 10:39:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | well, a bounded lattice |
| 2026-02-24 10:39:46 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Aren't all lattices bounded by their suprema? |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:04 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Ohh wait. |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | I see. |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | according to the wikipedia definition that I'm currently reading, a plain "lattice" requires joins and meets of _two_ elements |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:10 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | and thus finite sets |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | a _complete lattice_ additionally requires suprema and infima of larger sets |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | thus all complete lattices are bounded, but not all bounded lattices are complete? Perhaps? |
| 2026-02-24 10:40:55 +0100 | dminuoso | wonders why lattices are called lattices |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:19 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | because of this picture I always assumed https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pow3nonlattice.svg |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:39 +0100 | <jreicher> | dminuoso: hasse diagrams |
| 2026-02-24 10:41:51 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:06 +0100 | <jreicher> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasse_diagram |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:21 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | which that picture is an example of |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:40 +0100 | <Leary> | It's a bounded partial order with minimal and maximal elements---that doesn't imply unique suprema or infima. |
| 2026-02-24 10:42:51 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2026-02-24 10:43:09 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | fair! Even pairs need not have unique joins or meets |
| 2026-02-24 10:43:48 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Are you saying that Bounded does not have uniqueness requirements? |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: even if there is a maximal element of the entire set, that does not necessarily mean there is a _unique_ smallest upper bound of any subset of the set |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:31 +0100 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: I think they're talking about lattices. |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:33 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | "lattice" implies that such upper bounds (and lower bounds) are unique |
| 2026-02-24 10:44:57 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | so Bounded is not a "bounded lattice", it's a "partial order with minimal and maximal elements" |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | which... we knew 10 minutes ago already |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:08 +0100 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Trying to understand what "maximal element of the entire set" would mean, if it was not a unique smallest supremum of any subset of the set. |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:20 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | welcome to math where there are unintuitive counterexamples |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:27 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Oh hold on. |
| 2026-02-24 10:45:35 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The favourite person in a group could work I suppose. |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:10 +0100 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: clopen is my favourite |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:44 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Hold on what I just said makes no sense. |
| 2026-02-24 10:46:52 +0100 | <jreicher> | dminuoso: are you wondering what the difference between lattice and having max and min is? |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The uniqueness is not of any subset, but a *pair* of elements. |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:11 +0100 | <jreicher> | Yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:18 +0100 | <jreicher> | (But I'm still not sure what the initial question was) |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:24 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (which are, in particular, subsets) |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:29 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | jreicher: I think yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:46 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | do you have an example of a bounded partial order that is not a lattice? |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:51 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-0.open.aalto.fi) fp |
| 2026-02-24 10:47:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't) |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:02 +0100 | <Leary> | dminuoso: Maximal means nothing else is bigger than it, though perhaps the /greatest/ element is a better notion for a bound, in which case its bigger than everything. |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:22 +0100 | <int-e> | I'm confused; Bounded just defined two points called minBound and maxBound? So it would work for partial orders too (and thus, lattices) |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:44 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: the original original question was why Bounded does not have Ord as a superclass, which had answer "partial orders are a thing" |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:45 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: You can just contrive a small finite partial order on paper. |
| 2026-02-24 10:48:58 +0100 | <Leary> | It's not hard to make a counterexample. |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:03 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: Ah. I see, lack of context strikes again. |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:08 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: then we thought "but is Bounded then a bounded lattice?", to which the answer is no, as no unique joins/meets are required |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | now we want an example of that :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:54 +0100 | <jreicher> | tomsmeding: by "bounded" do we just mean the entire set (rather than any pair) as an infimum and supremum? |
| 2026-02-24 10:49:59 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:02 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | or at least, I do |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:11 +0100 | <__monty__> | dminuoso: If you're looking for any example of it whatsoever I think the one tomsmeding mentioned is the easiest. Take any set with more than one element and all subsets of that set, the partial order relation is subset-of, the minBound would be the empty set, the maxBound the set you started with, some pairs of subsets won't satisfy the subset-of relation in either order. So this can implement Bounded |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:17 +0100 | <__monty__> | but not Ord. |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:30 +0100 | <jreicher> | Then just "duplicate" a meet or join. It will no longer be a lattice. |
| 2026-02-24 10:50:48 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: yes, we figured that out, but we're already at the next question: that thing is clearly a lattice, but we want a not-lattice that is nevertheless a bounded partial order |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:04 +0100 | <int-e> | Is it okay if it's? 0 < 1,2 < 3,4 < 5 has minimal and maximal elements but 3,4 have no infimum and 1,2 have no supremum |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:29 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | but there's no unique maximum |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:30 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: The conversation has moved on but I'm not sure it's not leaving dminuoso behind ; ) |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:42 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | ah :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:43 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: 5 is the unique maximal element here |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:47 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/c52be6739f5815d13a6774d46dcbde75 |
| 2026-02-24 10:51:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: no, because 2 !< 5 |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:00 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: it's transitive |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:07 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | oh notation |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:14 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:27 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes perfect |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:36 +0100 | <jreicher> | I think int-e and I are thinking the same. 0 is one end and 5 is the other. The join of 1 and 2 is not unique |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:37 +0100 | tomsmeding | closes the image editor |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:41 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: sorry, I'm trying to cast a Hesse diagram in ASCII here |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:51 +0100 | <int-e> | the translation is a bit lossy ;) |
| 2026-02-24 10:52:55 +0100 | <jreicher> | int-e: have I understood you correctly? |
| 2026-02-24 10:53:18 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: that notation in your gist is a bit ambiguous, what do the /\ on line 4 mean :p |
| 2026-02-24 10:53:19 +0100 | <int-e> | Hasse diagram, meh. |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:13 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Did you mean it like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ayvscggm ? |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:34 +0100 | <__monty__> | I'm also interested in kind of the reverse question, are there structures that can implement Ord but not Bounded? Something like a cyclical ordering? I suppose only if we put the "laws" of the class aside. |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:43 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Or well, maybe without that x even |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:51 +0100 | <merijn> | __monty__: Clearly we need a PartialOrd superclass of Ord that implement "a -> a -> Maybe Ordering" |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:53 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Not sure if it makes it less or more ambiguous |
| 2026-02-24 10:54:55 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: the x must be a crossing of lines without a node, yes |
| 2026-02-24 10:55:11 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: Integer? |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:14 +0100 | <jreicher> | __monty__: if the order is transitive and antisymmetric it can't be cyclical |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:24 +0100 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: Cross connections. Bit hard in slapdash asci. I revised it with an X if that's clearer. |
| 2026-02-24 10:56:52 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | yes, which is also what dminuoso made of it |
| 2026-02-24 10:57:21 +0100 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: Oh, obviously, darn, less interesting than I thought. |
| 2026-02-24 10:59:28 +0100 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: here is what it looks like properly: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hapo.png |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:03 +0100 | <__monty__> | TIL, min and max can return a value that is distinct from their arguments, as long as it is == to one of their arguments. |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:25 +0100 | <__monty__> | I assume that's for some sort of canonicalization? |
| 2026-02-24 11:01:58 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: yes |
| 2026-02-24 11:02:13 +0100 | <Leary> | __monty__: `==` values aren't supposed to be distinguishable in the first place. |
| 2026-02-24 11:02:35 +0100 | tomsmeding | has a meeting -> afk |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:00 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:16 +0100 | <__monty__> | Leary: But things like Arg exist and they exist because they are useful, I assume. |
| 2026-02-24 11:08:35 +0100 | morj | (~morj@user/morj) morj |
| 2026-02-24 11:11:25 +0100 | <Leary> | It's occasionally pragmatic to break the law, yes. `Arg` actually wouldn't be useful if people always remembered to write `fooBy` instead of just `foo :: Ord a => ...`. |
| 2026-02-24 11:11:52 +0100 | <Leary> | At least, not useful enough to justify its existence. |
| 2026-02-24 11:13:02 +0100 | petrichor | (~jez@user/petrichor) petrichor |
| 2026-02-24 11:13:29 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2026-02-24 11:16:01 +0100 | morj_away | (~morj@user/morj) morj |
| 2026-02-24 11:16:37 +0100 | morj | (~morj@user/morj) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 11:17:10 +0100 | <int-e> | `fooBy` is awful when you have data structures with invariants (consider an implementation of containers that implements Data.Map using Data.Set with `Arg k v` elements) |
| 2026-02-24 11:18:20 +0100 | <int-e> | (So it's not just programmer laziness.) |
| 2026-02-24 11:20:38 +0100 | morj_away | (~morj@user/morj) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-02-24 11:20:56 +0100 | int-e | ponders extending this argument to saying that type classes are useles; people could just pass around the right operations explicitly. :-P |
| 2026-02-24 11:21:57 +0100 | <Leary> | Even in such a case, `Arg` should be handrolled in the guts of containers, not exposed from base. |
| 2026-02-24 11:23:43 +0100 | <Leary> | Re the extended argument, it's really about typeclasses with laws being used to implement operations that /don't require/ those laws and are useful in their absence; the typeclass method merely being a default choice. |
| 2026-02-24 11:26:50 +0100 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-02-24 11:27:05 +0100 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir |
| 2026-02-24 11:29:22 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
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| 2026-02-24 11:32:21 +0100 | hsw | (~hsw@106.104.102.45) hsw |
| 2026-02-24 11:49:08 +0100 | mange | (~mange@user/mange) mange |
| 2026-02-24 11:53:35 +0100 | Enrico63 | (~Enrico63@host-79-19-156-232.retail.telecomitalia.it) Enrico63 |
| 2026-02-24 11:57:55 +0100 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 2026-02-24 11:59:31 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 12:07:22 +0100 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1) |
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| 2026-02-24 12:12:42 +0100 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2026-02-24 12:14:03 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-0.open.aalto.fi) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 12:14:06 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 12:16:47 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-02-24 12:17:08 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 12:17:21 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-02-24 12:17:43 +0100 | Frostillicus | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-24 12:17:52 +0100 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@112.10.231.192) xdminsy |
| 2026-02-24 12:19:33 +0100 | infinity0 | (~infinity0@pwned.gg) infinity0 |
| 2026-02-24 12:19:40 +0100 | terrorjack | (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:271:2d98::2) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2026-02-24 12:26:37 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 12:34:05 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@130.233.70.214) fp |
| 2026-02-24 12:36:53 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-02-24 12:38:45 +0100 | wickedjargon | (~user@2605:8d80:5430:ec04:8f71:3db2:1c1a:13ef) wickedjargon |
| 2026-02-24 12:40:22 +0100 | Pozyomka | (~pyon@user/pyon) pyon |
