2025-09-15 00:02:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 00:03:21 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 00:08:32 +0200 | Ezic | (~Ezic@2a02:a31c:2d8:4400:7591:97d9:8a76:62ce) |
2025-09-15 00:09:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 00:15:58 +0200 | yin | zzz |
2025-09-15 00:16:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Youre the first person to give me any kind of feedback. So its greatly appreciated. I see that my whole IR is wrong :( |
2025-09-15 00:17:21 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
2025-09-15 00:18:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Though i still dont understand how moving the arguments into let bindings would help me. Since im having issues with the function bodies, not let bindings |
2025-09-15 00:18:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I mean |
2025-09-15 00:19:53 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Say i have "let f = (\y \x -> x) 5; in f 4" this should return 4 if im doing brain eval right. This would end up being something like |
2025-09-15 00:20:25 +0200 | zzz | tilde |
2025-09-15 00:20:25 +0200 | sprotte24 | (~sprotte24@p200300d16f0fa90034a8f8dc2eadcbb1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
2025-09-15 00:21:14 +0200 | Ezic | (~Ezic@2a02:a31c:2d8:4400:7591:97d9:8a76:62ce) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-09-15 00:21:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> (apply f [ 4 ]) where f is itself a thunk pointing to (apply (FUN (y) (FUN (x) x)) [ 5 ]) |
2025-09-15 00:22:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 00:22:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But again, i get into the situation that there is not rule for applying onto an application, so i have to have a thunk there. But then the thunk gets immediately erased and a second call to f will fail |
2025-09-15 00:23:40 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I think the actual bit that im doing wrong is in the UPDATE rule. They say "if H[y] is a value" do they mean atom AND function? Or what do they mean? |
2025-09-15 00:26:00 +0200 | <int-e> | With the notation of the paper I think you'd have let f = THUNK (let g = FUN (y -> FUN (x -> x)) in g 5) in f 4 |
2025-09-15 00:26:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ah wait, ig if they meant value or function, it would actually work |
2025-09-15 00:26:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yep okay that notation makes sense, i do that, except for the let |
2025-09-15 00:26:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I dont think the let is important for semantics, just performance probably. |
2025-09-15 00:28:25 +0200 | swistak | (~swistak@185.21.216.141) |
2025-09-15 00:28:35 +0200 | <int-e> | You can't have (g 5) 4 in that syntax, so the (g 5) must be constructed with a `let`. |
2025-09-15 00:30:51 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f91c:d27d:e5a1:1629) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
2025-09-15 00:34:15 +0200 | jreicher | (~user@user/jreicher) jreicher |
2025-09-15 00:34:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> right, in that syntax no |
2025-09-15 00:34:34 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> in my syntax yes |
2025-09-15 00:35:03 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> and it works when i only apply UPDATE when the H[y] is a PAP, FUN, or value (think i32, f32, String) |
2025-09-15 00:35:52 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i need to figure out how closely do i need to follow the paper, because my thing is interpreting an untyped language and is also not a compiler, but a interpreter/VM |
2025-09-15 00:36:01 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> so i think im stretching this a bit |
2025-09-15 00:36:32 +0200 | <int-e> | well, the function call rules rely on those restrictions; there's no rule that applies to (g 5) 4; ... because (g 5) is not a variable. You can modify those but then you're on your own and things that work fine with the original rules may go wrong. |
2025-09-15 00:37:08 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i dont have (g 5) 4 |
2025-09-15 00:37:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i have (THUNK (g 5)) 4 and that works |
2025-09-15 00:37:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> whether the THUNK is inline or bound through a let is implementation details, it shouldnt affect semantics |
2025-09-15 00:38:08 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but i do agree that my STG type being able to represent an invalid tree is problematic |
2025-09-15 00:38:43 +0200 | <jreicher> | What do you mean by an "invalid tree"? (Sorry, coming into this a bit late) |
2025-09-15 00:39:15 +0200 | <int-e> | Right, you have (FUN (y -> FUN (x -> x))) 5, but basically the same comment applies: (FUN ...) is not a variable. |
2025-09-15 00:39:29 +0200 | <int-e> | (as the expression in that thunk) |
2025-09-15 00:40:48 +0200 | <int-e> | And to overcome this within the rules of the paper, you have to let-bind that function. |
2025-09-15 00:41:05 +0200 | <int-e> | hence let g = FUN (y -> FUN (x -> x)) in g |
2025-09-15 00:44:05 +0200 | <int-e> | and actually that's still wrong, because FUN ... is a heap object, and only the rhs of let-s are heap objects. So it'll actually be let g = FUN (y -> let h = FUN (x -> x) in h) in g. |
2025-09-15 00:46:51 +0200 | tilde | zzz |
2025-09-15 00:47:23 +0200 | <int-e> | the final `in g` is supposed to be `in g 5` both times |
2025-09-15 00:48:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> yes because within the rules of that paper, let bindings create thunks? |
2025-09-15 00:48:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> in the current constraints of my think, i can insert thunks anywhere |
2025-09-15 00:48:32 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> so that alleviates that problem |
2025-09-15 00:48:33 +0200 | <int-e> | let bindings create new heap objects |
2025-09-15 00:48:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> yep |
2025-09-15 00:48:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> okay |
2025-09-15 00:48:43 +0200 | <jreicher> | And they're not necessarily thunks |
2025-09-15 00:49:17 +0200 | <int-e> | right |
2025-09-15 00:49:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> when can they be not thunks? |
2025-09-15 00:49:31 +0200 | <jreicher> | When they're functions |
2025-09-15 00:49:44 +0200 | <int-e> | or fully saturated constructors |
2025-09-15 00:49:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i dont have constructors in my thing, and probably wont, nix doesnt have them |
2025-09-15 00:49:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but uh |
2025-09-15 00:50:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> as for the function thing |
2025-09-15 00:50:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> oh right |
2025-09-15 00:50:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> yes |
2025-09-15 00:50:33 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> okay, so we have let f = \x -> x in f 4 |
2025-09-15 00:51:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but f = THUNK ( let g = (\y \x -> x) in g 5 ) in f 4 |
2025-09-15 00:51:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> right? the inner one doesnt have to be thunk |
2025-09-15 00:51:36 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> because its a FUN |
2025-09-15 00:52:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> the outer one is neither a let, as such it needs a thunk |
2025-09-15 00:52:15 +0200 | <int-e> | you /can/ have let f = THUNK (let g = FUN (y x -> x) in g 5) in f 4 |
2025-09-15 00:52:34 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> isnt that exactly what i typed |
2025-09-15 00:52:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> jreicher im implementing my own version of the STG, or at least trying to, then building a Nix frontend on top |
2025-09-15 00:53:06 +0200 | <int-e> | let f = THUNK (let g = FUN (y -> let h = FUN (x -> x) in h) in g 5) in f 4 was me being faithful to the distinction betwenn \y -> \x -> x and \y x -> x that is occasionally relevant |
2025-09-15 00:53:19 +0200 | <int-e> | I know that it's different from what you wrote; I corrected it |
2025-09-15 00:53:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> ah sorry |
2025-09-15 00:53:37 +0200 | cyphase_eviltwin | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-09-15 00:53:40 +0200 | <int-e> | (\y \x -> x) isn't a heap object |
2025-09-15 00:53:46 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> im a bit too sleepy for this, but i think you unblocked me, because the thing seems to work, so thanks |
2025-09-15 00:55:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> ill go to bed now, my let bindings are wrong still i think, they dont get updated properly (they dont have thunks, so obviously they dont) |
2025-09-15 00:56:44 +0200 | <jreicher> | int-e: OK, but I'm not sure what's "invalid" here? (I'm probably missing something) |
2025-09-15 01:00:10 +0200 | <int-e> | jreicher: this is in reference to https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/eval-apply.pdf , which describes an STG-like language. And the expression syntax there has let x = obj in e, where `obj` must be a heap object, which starts with FUN, PAP, CON, THUNK, or BLACKHOLE... (\y \x -> x) is none of these. |
2025-09-15 01:00:58 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) cyphase |
2025-09-15 01:03:31 +0200 | <jreicher> | int-e: yep know the paper well. Ironically I last read it too long ago to have everything fresh in my memory. |
2025-09-15 01:03:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Right i actually have that in my huge match statement lol, the body of an application must be a heap object, which is exactly what i was struggling with, makes sense |
2025-09-15 01:04:18 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But yeah, im writing an interpreter so im taking a lot of liberties |
2025-09-15 01:05:07 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I will bring this closer to what the paper is describing just for consistency, though ill use a lisp like syntax, im not writing a parser for the stg syntax presented in the paper |
2025-09-15 01:05:44 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Then ill expand the nix frontend and then see what needs optimizing. Since i was told that microbenchmarking nix is impossible .... |
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2025-09-15 05:18:45 +0200 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
2025-09-15 05:19:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:29:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 05:30:47 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) segfaultfizzbuzz |
2025-09-15 05:30:58 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
2025-09-15 05:35:03 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:36:27 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:36:59 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:46:41 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
2025-09-15 05:46:44 +0200 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
2025-09-15 05:47:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 05:51:31 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) segfaultfizzbuzz |
2025-09-15 05:51:52 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
2025-09-15 05:52:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:57:50 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
2025-09-15 05:58:39 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:03:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 06:10:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:11:21 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) |
2025-09-15 06:11:23 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:13:19 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf |
2025-09-15 06:19:38 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) |
2025-09-15 06:21:23 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 06:23:09 +0200 | trickard_ | trickard |
2025-09-15 06:26:39 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:33:03 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:37:09 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 06:41:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-09-15 06:43:38 +0200 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
2025-09-15 06:47:14 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
2025-09-15 06:47:22 +0200 | humasect_ | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
2025-09-15 06:52:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 06:58:08 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:01:39 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-172-222-149-049.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:08:44 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 07:10:38 +0200 | humasect_ | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 07:13:18 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:13:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:20:01 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
2025-09-15 07:23:50 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 07:24:11 +0200 | marinelli | (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) marinelli |
2025-09-15 07:24:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 07:29:18 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:31:47 +0200 | Square3 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
2025-09-15 07:32:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 07:32:45 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.193) |
2025-09-15 07:37:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:46:53 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) |
2025-09-15 07:48:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 07:51:08 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:54:57 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 07:55:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:06:31 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 08:07:09 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square@user/square) Square |
2025-09-15 08:11:38 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:19:29 +0200 | Square2 | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:20:42 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-9021-558a-ccea-f5e8.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-09-15 08:20:59 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-9021-558a-ccea-f5e8.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
2025-09-15 08:22:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 08:23:40 +0200 | posixlycorrect | (~posixlyco@user/posixlycorrect) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 08:24:41 +0200 | posixlycorrect | (~posixlyco@user/posixlycorrect) posixlycorrect |
2025-09-15 08:25:45 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) |
2025-09-15 08:26:02 +0200 | dutchie | (~dutchie@user/dutchie) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 08:27:06 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:27:26 +0200 | dutchie | (~dutchie@user/dutchie) dutchie |
2025-09-15 08:30:14 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:33:27 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937 |
2025-09-15 08:33:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-09-15 08:36:41 +0200 | potato44 | (uid421314@id-421314.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
2025-09-15 08:49:47 +0200 | krei-se | (~krei-se@2003:f1:cf34:2301:915f:4388:7404:f7ca) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 08:57:21 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-9021-558a-ccea-f5e8.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-09-15 08:57:34 +0200 | Googulator | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-217b-9021-558a-ccea-f5e8.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
2025-09-15 09:00:00 +0200 | caconym747 | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
2025-09-15 09:01:07 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2a25a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
2025-09-15 09:01:10 +0200 | caconym747 | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
2025-09-15 09:01:23 +0200 | kenran | (~void@user/kenran) kenran |
2025-09-15 09:03:04 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 09:05:09 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
2025-09-15 09:05:50 +0200 | jrm2 | (~jrm@user/jrm) jrm |
2025-09-15 09:07:11 +0200 | jrm | (~jrm@user/jrm) (Quit: ciao) |
2025-09-15 09:07:41 +0200 | jrm2 | jrm |
2025-09-15 09:09:26 +0200 | segfaultfizzbuzz | (~segfaultf@12.172.219.17) segfaultfizzbuzz |
2025-09-15 09:19:21 +0200 | kenran | (~void@user/kenran) (Remote host closed the connection) |
2025-09-15 09:22:46 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect |
2025-09-15 09:26:06 +0200 | werneta | (~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
2025-09-15 09:27:29 +0200 | humasect | (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-09-15 09:31:05 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:71ae:c4c:8876:9d63) |
2025-09-15 09:31:49 +0200 | kenran | (~void@user/kenran) kenran |
2025-09-15 09:33:35 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7171973402f102ed86f9f4d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
2025-09-15 09:34:49 +0200 | jreicher | (~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: In transit) |
2025-09-15 09:47:42 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |