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| 2025-06-02 00:26:25 +0200 | AlexZenon | (~alzenon@178.34.162.18) |
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| 2025-06-02 00:32:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Also, I got desperate and tried to go try Codecanvas.ai for MVP |
| 2025-06-02 00:32:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's not there yet; capability is quite limited right now |
| 2025-06-02 00:33:00 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 00:33:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> (wiki website target, or at least the support staff told me that) |
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| 2025-06-02 02:42:54 +0200 | <EvanR> | any clue why this is happening or if I'm just tripping. readFile on a named pipe acts normally the first time you open the fifo, "blocking" until a writer appears and starts sending data, then the lazy list terminates when the writer closes the fifo |
| 2025-06-02 02:43:01 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 02:43:03 +0200 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 02:43:13 +0200 | <EvanR> | after consuming the entire list, another call to readFile on the fifo immediately returns [] |
| 2025-06-02 02:43:23 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 02:44:20 +0200 | <geekosaur> | that's standard fifo behavior, yes |
| 2025-06-02 02:44:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | so you can never reopen a fifo? |
| 2025-06-02 02:44:38 +0200 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 2025-06-02 02:45:13 +0200 | <geekosaur> | you need to hold it open `O_RDWR` and have some protocol for "end of current connection". or use an `AF_LOCAL` socket, which behaves the way you want FIFOs to work |
| 2025-06-02 02:46:10 +0200 | <geekosaur> | actually this isn't 100% POSIXX behavior, `readFile` and the somewhat weird Haskell Report-specified semantics of lazy I/O are contributing |
| 2025-06-02 02:46:41 +0200 | <geekosaur> | the two together make FIFOs kinda unusable in Haskell |
| 2025-06-02 02:46:43 +0200 | Digit | (~user@user/digit) Digit |
| 2025-06-02 02:47:05 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but that's only slightly worse than the normal POSIX behavior |
| 2025-06-02 02:47:21 +0200 | <geekosaur> | really, just don't use FIFOs |
| 2025-06-02 02:49:54 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-06-02 02:50:17 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 02:50:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 02:50:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | I don't understand the condition which causes a 2nd opening of the fifo to instantly return EOF |
| 2025-06-02 02:50:58 +0200 | <EvanR> | e.g. I can run the program again or a second program to open it and it blocks |
| 2025-06-02 02:51:07 +0200 | <EvanR> | for reading |
| 2025-06-02 02:51:20 +0200 | <EvanR> | is it like "one process, one opening" |
| 2025-06-02 02:51:56 +0200 | <EvanR> | come back with another process if you want more fifo |
| 2025-06-02 02:52:11 +0200 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 2025-06-02 02:52:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | interesting |
| 2025-06-02 02:52:54 +0200 | <geekosaur> | POSIX FIFO semantics come from UNIX System III/V and are rather strange |
| 2025-06-02 02:54:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I only know of one program which made useful use of them: on System V R3, `cron` opened a private FIFO for read/write and listened for lines written by `crontab`, which told it to reread the specified crontab file |
| 2025-06-02 02:55:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 02:56:15 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 02:56:36 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 02:57:59 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 02:58:38 +0200 | <geekosaur> | btw I think what causes that instant-EOF behavior is that the RTS opens it non-blocking, then `readFile` sets up an `unsafeInterleaveIO` which fails on the first read, which is passed back to you as EOF |
| 2025-06-02 02:59:39 +0200 | <geekosaur> | lazy I/O doesn't hande exceptional conditions at all well |
| 2025-06-02 03:02:39 +0200 | <EvanR> | I tried using openFile and hGetLine |
| 2025-06-02 03:02:43 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:02:52 +0200 | <geekosaur> | so anyway FIFOs are broken, lazy I/O is broken, if you use them together you get to keep all the shattered pieces |
| 2025-06-02 03:03:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | same result, first it blocks waiting for a writer, second time it suceeds immediately but hGetLine throws because EOF |
| 2025-06-02 03:03:05 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:03:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | is it open blocking the first time and non-blocking the second time |
| 2025-06-02 03:04:25 +0200 | <geekosaur> | it should always be non-blocking, I think? the RTS doesn't use blocking fds because that would block the whole process instead of just the running thread |
| 2025-06-02 03:04:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | if this can't be adjusted I'm not sure how that crontab trick even worked |
| 2025-06-02 03:04:41 +0200 | <EvanR> | opening the first time blocks if there's no writer yet |
| 2025-06-02 03:05:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | because only writers close it. cron kept it open O_RDWR|O_NONBLOCK continuously |
| 2025-06-02 03:05:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 2025-06-02 03:05:35 +0200 | <EvanR> | i'll try opening it RDWR |
| 2025-06-02 03:05:40 +0200 | <geekosaur> | so it never saw EOF, it just relied on every "record" being a single line |
| 2025-06-02 03:06:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 03:06:24 +0200 | <EvanR> | that made it behave |
| 2025-06-02 03:07:58 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:08:23 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:08:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | it causes reader to not see EOF from writers closing |
| 2025-06-02 03:08:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | which is good enough for government work |
| 2025-06-02 03:09:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | but also closing and reopening a second time gives blocking behavior again |
| 2025-06-02 03:09:17 +0200 | <EvanR> | weird |
| 2025-06-02 03:11:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:14:50 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:15:13 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:16:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | if the RTS puts all file I/O through the select mechanism they wouldn't need to be non-blocking right |
| 2025-06-02 03:16:47 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:16:49 +0200 | <EvanR> | since then it knows if a read or write would block |
| 2025-06-02 03:17:11 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:18:28 +0200 | <monochrom> | It is still simpler to keep using the non-blocking mode. |
| 2025-06-02 03:20:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | does it make any difference if it's all selected? |
| 2025-06-02 03:21:09 +0200 | <monochrom> | Suppose two threads race to read from the same FD. Suppose select detects that data has arrived. Should the RTS wake up just one of them? Or both of them? Either way is easily broken under blocking mode because you don't know how much each thread actually reads. |
| 2025-06-02 03:21:11 +0200 | <geekosaur> | yes, because it affects semantics of the FIFO, not just blocking-ness |
| 2025-06-02 03:21:22 +0200 | <geekosaur> | also that |
| 2025-06-02 03:21:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't mean it is unsolvable. There is a way you can go out of your way to fool-proof that. |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:01 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:03 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:03 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:9dbe:32d6:8014:9bea) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:19 +0200 | <EvanR> | the RTS doesn't just make 1 thread at a time accessing the FD |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | Alternatively, non-blocking mode relieves you from working so hard, while still be completely safe and correct. |
| 2025-06-02 03:22:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | ? |
| 2025-06-02 03:23:48 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:24:11 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:25:24 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:25:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | k I messed up my original test by also pipe the fifo to stdin |
| 2025-06-02 03:25:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | now the behavior with lazy I/O is consistent |
| 2025-06-02 03:25:52 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:25:59 +0200 | <EvanR> | it *always* immediately returns an empty list |
| 2025-06-02 03:26:45 +0200 | <monochrom> | OK, even better example without racing. 2 bytes have arrived. But the thread called read(fd, buf, 10). Blocking mode hangs that read() waiting for 8 more bytes (or EOF or error). |
| 2025-06-02 03:26:58 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:27:16 +0200 | <monochrom> | GHC uses green threads so all of RTS hangs. |
| 2025-06-02 03:27:35 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-06-02 03:28:58 +0200 | <int-e> | You should get a partial read; it's supposed to block only when no data is available at all. |
| 2025-06-02 03:29:09 +0200 | _d0t | (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:29:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | yes it returns less than requested in blocking mode |
| 2025-06-02 03:29:27 +0200 | <monochrom> | At this point I hope you don't react like my students. They are lazy and switch to read(fd, buf, 1) and be egregiously inefficient. GHC RTS cannot afford to do that, people would riot. |
| 2025-06-02 03:29:49 +0200 | <monochrom> | Ah OK my bad. |
| 2025-06-02 03:30:02 +0200 | <EvanR> | that's why you have to repeatedly write until everything goes through since it might return less than what you wanted to write |
| 2025-06-02 03:30:49 +0200 | <int-e> | fread() does that loop for you, so if you took your semantics from there you'd be right. |
| 2025-06-02 03:31:56 +0200 | <int-e> | (you still get partial reads but only on actual errors or EOF) |
| 2025-06-02 03:32:08 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:32:31 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:32:51 +0200 | <int-e> | Anyway. This shouldn't distract from the point that read *can* block if the fd is not in non-blocking mode, and allowing blind reads simplifies some code.. |
| 2025-06-02 03:35:07 +0200 | <int-e> | ...and break some foreign libraries that you might want to pass fds to as a bonus. ;-) |
| 2025-06-02 03:36:21 +0200 | mange | (~mange@user/mange) mange |
| 2025-06-02 03:37:51 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 03:38:01 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-06-02 03:38:15 +0200 | _d0t | (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-} |
| 2025-06-02 03:39:49 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:40:11 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:45:05 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 03:45:11 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-06-02 03:45:42 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@152.37.64.162) |
| 2025-06-02 03:45:43 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@152.37.64.162) (Changing host) |
| 2025-06-02 03:45:43 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz |
| 2025-06-02 03:47:42 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:48:04 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:48:18 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell |
| 2025-06-02 03:55:41 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 03:55:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 03:56:06 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 03:57:21 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-06-02 04:00:26 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-06-02 04:00:53 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 04:01:53 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:02:17 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:08:01 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-06-02 04:08:23 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:11:44 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 04:15:03 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:15:25 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:16:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 04:20:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 04:22:06 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:22:27 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:24:50 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 04:28:51 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:29:12 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:35:38 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:35:56 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-06-02 04:36:00 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2025-06-02 04:40:49 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-06-02 04:41:06 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-06-02 04:41:29 +0200 | sabathan2 | (~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) |