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2025-05-23 00:24:22 +0200 <Square> Anyone know how to bypass "Internal error when trying to open a repl for the package fake-package-0. The package is not in the set of available targets for the project plan, which would suggest an inconsistency between readTargetSelectors and resolveTargets"
2025-05-23 00:25:12 +0200 <Square> when issuing "cabal repl" in a multi module project? Filed here among other places https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/9983
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2025-05-23 00:28:07 +0200 <int-e> this suggests that you're supposed to also provide a package name for loading into the repl
2025-05-23 00:29:41 +0200 <Square> Yeah, easy to figure out. I'll try to onboard some colleagues into haskell land next week so i hoped I could offer a more user friendly experience.
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2025-05-23 04:41:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 04:43:14 +0200philopsos(~caecilius@user/philopsos) philopsos
2025-05-23 04:44:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 04:48:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 04:52:15 +0200werneta(~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta
2025-05-23 04:53:04 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - http://znc.in)
2025-05-23 04:53:30 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot) pierrot
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2025-05-23 04:57:52 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) EvanR
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2025-05-23 05:02:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 05:03:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2025-05-23 05:25:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 05:27:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2025-05-23 05:29:04 +0200aforemny(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ce6:ef00:2fd7:e80c:fba:7604) aforemny
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2025-05-23 05:35:52 +0200codedmart(~codedmart@li335-49.members.linode.com) (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2025-05-23 05:36:09 +0200codedmart(~codedmart@li335-49.members.linode.com) codedmart
2025-05-23 05:41:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 05:41:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 05:41:49 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2025-05-23 05:54:11 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203)
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2025-05-23 05:57:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-23 06:02:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:06:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 06:12:57 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 06:13:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 06:14:27 +0200tavare(~tavare@150.129.88.189)
2025-05-23 06:14:28 +0200tavare(~tavare@150.129.88.189) (Changing host)
2025-05-23 06:14:28 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) tavare
2025-05-23 06:18:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:20:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 06:24:01 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 06:27:14 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 06:27:17 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2025-05-23 06:27:35 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 06:28:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-23 06:33:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:39:45 +0200YuutaW(~YuutaW@2404:f4c0:f9c3:502::100:17b7) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:39:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 06:44:19 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 06:44:26 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-23 06:44:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 06:44:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 06:48:10 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:49:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:51:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 06:53:44 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-05-23 06:56:32 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-23 06:56:32 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 06:56:46 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-05-23 06:56:59 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2025-05-23 07:00:19 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 07:00:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 07:00:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 07:05:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 07:07:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 07:10:33 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-23 07:11:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 07:13:37 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 07:16:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-23 07:20:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 07:20:55 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 07:23:37 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 07:28:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 07:33:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-23 07:34:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 07:34:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 07:40:40 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 07:40:45 +0200ft(~ft@p3e9bc106.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2025-05-23 07:41:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 07:44:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 07:45:06 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 07:46:51 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-23 07:49:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 07:51:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-23 07:56:45 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 07:57:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 08:01:23 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 08:02:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 08:03:27 +0200iteratee_(~kyle@199.119.84.78)
2025-05-23 08:03:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:04:13 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2025-05-23 08:06:13 +0200iteratee(~kyle@199.119.84.78) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:07:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:08:48 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-23 08:08:50 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 08:09:57 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:12:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 08:12:41 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 08:16:13 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:30a6:c51d:9dbb:1dc5)
2025-05-23 08:16:17 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:17:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:17:21 +0200j0lol(~j0lol@132.145.17.236) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 08:17:35 +0200j0lol(~j0lol@132.145.17.236) j0lol
2025-05-23 08:18:20 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-23 08:22:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:24:35 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen
2025-05-23 08:27:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 08:28:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 08:29:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 08:32:07 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:32:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:35:12 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:41:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 08:41:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 08:43:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 08:47:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 08:47:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 08:48:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-23 08:51:14 +0200craunts7(~craunts@136.158.8.87) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-05-23 08:51:28 +0200craunts7(~craunts@136.158.8.87)
2025-05-23 08:51:45 +0200craunts7(~craunts@136.158.8.87) (Client Quit)
2025-05-23 08:52:12 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-23 08:52:35 +0200craunts7(~craunts@136.158.8.87)
2025-05-23 08:54:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 08:58:04 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-05-23 08:59:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 09:00:01 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-05-23 09:00:39 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-05-23 09:01:56 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 09:04:43 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp
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2025-05-23 09:13:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 09:13:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: yay :)
2025-05-23 09:13:28 +0200YuutaW(~YuutaW@2404:f4c0:f9c3:502::100:17b7) YuutaW
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2025-05-23 09:23:49 +0200 <Leary> Is there a good reason why, if I have e.g `t :: (,) _ _`, GHC can't give me `t ~ '(,) _ _`? How dangerous is it for me to magic up such an equality?
2025-05-23 09:25:23 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Omitting Nil also leads to some inconsistencies of functions for 2-tuples and [n>2]-tuples; that's why purescript doesn't omit it
2025-05-23 09:25:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Like should snd be snd = cdr . car or snd = cdr
2025-05-23 09:25:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> *car . cdr, well you get it
2025-05-23 09:25:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> fromList elements are homogenous though
2025-05-23 09:25:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> No fromList [1, "one"]
2025-05-23 09:25:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> named wildcard
2025-05-23 09:25:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> check it out
2025-05-23 09:25:45 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2025-05-23 09:26:09 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> perhaps it can help, since that's the only way to provide additional information to wildcard
2025-05-23 09:28:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-23 09:31:58 +0200innegatives(~user@37.61.112.6) innegatives
2025-05-23 09:32:14 +0200 <innegatives> Is there a recommended Haskell video course for absolute beginners?
2025-05-23 09:35:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-23 09:35:21 +0200 <[exa]> good question, I started with the written ones
2025-05-23 09:35:22 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-05-23 09:35:39 +0200 <[exa]> lemme check, there's been a good list of resources on haskell wiki
2025-05-23 09:36:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 09:36:38 +0200 <[exa]> some of stuff here is videos actually https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Tutorials
2025-05-23 09:37:13 +0200 <innegatives> ok thanks
2025-05-23 09:37:14 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-23 09:37:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 09:38:25 +0200 <[exa]> also maybe here https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Learning_Haskell
2025-05-23 09:39:38 +0200 <[exa]> btw innegatives are you programming already or is this te first time coding?
2025-05-23 09:39:48 +0200 <innegatives> been programming for 10+ years
2025-05-23 09:39:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: is t a term or a type?
2025-05-23 09:40:10 +0200 <hellwolf> 05-23 10:39 <innegatives> been programming for 10+ years
2025-05-23 09:40:10 +0200 <hellwolf> which language(s)?
2025-05-23 09:40:25 +0200 <innegatives> the usual, c++, javascript, typescript, go, python, etc
2025-05-23 09:40:43 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: type
2025-05-23 09:40:48 +0200 <[exa]> innegatives: unless you totally need videos you might have luck skimming through this https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/, it's a good book but there aren't exercises. But you should be able to invent some.
2025-05-23 09:42:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: do you mean something specific by writing `(,) _ _` instead of `(a, b)`?
2025-05-23 09:42:53 +0200 <[exa]> oh wow the wiki has a tutorial on tutorials https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Meta-tutorial
2025-05-23 09:43:32 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: No, just avoiding the complexities of quantification/unification etc.
2025-05-23 09:44:01 +0200 <Leary> My "magic" looks like: `matchTup :: forall {k1} {k2} (t :: (k1, k2)) r. (forall (a :: k1) (b :: k2). t :~: '(a, b) -> r) -> r; matchTup k = k (unsafeCoerce (Refl @t))`
2025-05-23 09:44:30 +0200 <[exa]> innegatives: and for a practical programmer, this is indispensable https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=How_to_write_a_Haskell_program
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2025-05-23 09:45:02 +0200user3(~user@37.61.120.251)
2025-05-23 09:45:09 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2025-05-23 09:45:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: I guess one could say that you're asking: do type-level pairs have an eta law
2025-05-23 09:45:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 09:45:39 +0200innegatives(~user@37.61.112.6) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-23 09:46:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> I don't think GHC ever reasons with eta laws in type checking
2025-05-23 09:47:09 +0200user3innegatives
2025-05-23 09:50:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> innegatives: that "how to write a haskell program" is mostly good but a little outdated
2025-05-23 09:51:45 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-23 09:52:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> don't add a Setup.hs; use `cabal build` to build instead of sandbox/install; use `cabal run` to run (also builds automatically) if needed; never run `cabal install` except if you want to globally install a binary in ~/.cabal/bin; you'll need to add dependencies to the `build-depends:` field of the <name>.cabal file (think package.json)
2025-05-23 09:53:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> uploading documentation to hackage is also much simpler than written there, but you'll get there when you get there
2025-05-23 09:54:06 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-05-23 09:54:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> the Libraries section is mostly bunk today because it's considered a very bad idea to install libraries globally; you declaratively depend on libraries, and if you need to depend on something that's not on Hackage, use a https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-project-description-file.html file (note: <package>.cabal and cabal.project are NOT the same thing, confusingly)
2025-05-23 09:55:54 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2025-05-23 09:57:13 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-23 09:58:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> innegatives here's a recent list of all the stuff: https://joyful.com/Haskell+map
2025-05-23 09:58:53 +0200 <innegatives> thanks dudes
2025-05-23 09:59:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> [exa]: honestly, https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/getting-started.html is much less extensive than that guide, but good enough for starting
2025-05-23 09:59:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> innegatives: ^
2025-05-23 09:59:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> with the advantage that it's actually up to date
2025-05-23 10:00:25 +0200 <[exa]> true
2025-05-23 10:00:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you need more than the getting started guide, you'll be in a good enough position to read more
2025-05-23 10:01:14 +0200djmetzle(~djmetzle@user/djmetzle) (Quit: Client closed)
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2025-05-23 10:03:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> added a link to that guide at the top of the wiki page
2025-05-23 10:03:19 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 10:07:04 +0200 <dminuoso> [exa]: If possible, I would consider cabal data-files rather than trying to hack them into the binary file.
2025-05-23 10:07:07 +0200 <dminuoso> Via TH
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2025-05-23 10:12:25 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
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2025-05-23 10:15:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> do those work if you do weird things like include a package as a git dependency?
2025-05-23 10:15:45 +0200 <[exa]> dminuoso: yeah I'd love to, the issue is that there's no applicable package installation system on the other end, so in this case I really want to make a blob into the executable to keep stuff simple for the users
2025-05-23 10:15:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> my experience with cabal data files is that they mostly don't work unless you get a package from hackage or install it globally, but maybe things have changed
2025-05-23 10:16:08 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> data-files is totally fragile, waste of time IMHO
2025-05-23 10:16:30 +0200 <[exa]> tbh it worked for me on the few occasions I could use it
2025-05-23 10:17:22 +0200 <[exa]> as in, debian packaging can work with it, so you can do a debian package that distributes its own data without touching debtools, which is a win
2025-05-23 10:19:04 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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2025-05-23 10:36:48 +0200pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1
2025-05-23 10:37:09 +0200 <dminuoso> sm, tomsmeding: Fragility is a problem if you consider hackage to be a realistic package deployment system.
2025-05-23 10:37:19 +0200 <dminuoso> (Or cabal-install + hackage, rather)
2025-05-23 10:39:01 +0200 <dminuoso> It might somewhat accepted a haskell developer audience who dont mind meddling with the usual problems (updating cabal index, fixing build plan issues, waiting half an hour on compiling kmettiverse and all the rest..)
2025-05-23 10:39:35 +0200 <dminuoso> But honestly, when I install shellcheck or pandoc, I just want a binary.
2025-05-23 10:40:23 +0200 <dminuoso> (Or rather, I want my package system to ship with some package that contains all the bits compiled and packaged by someone and somewhere else)
2025-05-23 10:40:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: I trust that data files work if you install a thing from hackage. What I've had problems with in the past is, if I remember correctly, _anything else_
2025-05-23 10:41:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> if I `cabal run` a test suite, will the library have access to data files?
2025-05-23 10:41:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> if I depend on a package via `source-repository-package`, will that thing have its data files?
2025-05-23 10:41:36 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> even in that case, they work on the day you install them, but then your app breaks in future when you upgrade ghc, clean out old .cabal files, etc.
2025-05-23 10:42:01 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: For any non-trivial package, I dont expect any cabal commands to work. Id expect the git repository to have some described mechanism to set up a deterministic environment.
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2025-05-23 10:42:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> I expect `cabal run` to work.
2025-05-23 10:42:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 10:42:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> (if the package has an executable)
2025-05-23 10:42:28 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: Consider GHC, you really want to `nix-shell` or `nix develop` from its repository to do any work
2025-05-23 10:42:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> GHC is a special case that gets allowed its build system madness because it's old and predates cabal
2025-05-23 10:43:20 +0200 <dminuoso> I dont think age is relevant at all. GHC has a complicated staged build process.
2025-05-23 10:43:26 +0200 <dminuoso> It's simply not trivial.
2025-05-23 10:43:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you need something that's so complex that even a custom Setup.hs can't handle it, simplify your build process, or justify why you're special
2025-05-23 10:43:41 +0200 <dminuoso> While yes, you probably could rebuild it all in Setup.hs with enough energy..
2025-05-23 10:43:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: ah right, I forgot about the staged build
2025-05-23 10:43:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> okay staged ghc build gets a pass too
2025-05-23 10:44:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> (i.e. staged build is sufficient justification for being special :p)
2025-05-23 10:44:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm not saying that every haskell codebase everywhere must run with `cabal run`, just that the _vast majority_ has not enough claim to specialness to not do so
2025-05-23 10:45:09 +0200 <dminuoso> Besides, the fragility of data-files by itself is perhaps a good indicator why relying on hackage is not the best of ideas.
2025-05-23 10:45:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: I'm talking about everything _but_ hackage lol
2025-05-23 10:45:28 +0200 <dminuoso> Oh.
2025-05-23 10:45:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you get a package from hackage, its data files probably work fine
2025-05-23 10:45:51 +0200 <dminuoso> See, Im building via haskell.nix to get deterministic behavior *and* all the custom nonsense without meddling with Setup.hs :)
2025-05-23 10:46:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> good for you :)
2025-05-23 10:46:09 +0200 <dminuoso> It's still headaches, but honestly there just are no sane build systems in this world.
2025-05-23 10:46:17 +0200 <dminuoso> No it's still bad for me.
2025-05-23 10:46:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> significant non-haskell dependencies that require build steps _might_ also get a pass to need a custom build system
2025-05-23 10:47:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> Accelerate builds some C++ stuff in certain build modes and does so via Setup.hs, but it's fragile
2025-05-23 10:47:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> but my point is: data files are something rather basic, and if they prohibit standard things that I expect to do with cabal packages, then it's data files that are broken, not `cabal run`
2025-05-23 10:48:25 +0200 <dminuoso> I would much prefer text sections in my resulting object files embedded by cabal, rather than as the result of a TH splice.
2025-05-23 10:48:28 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2025-05-23 10:48:44 +0200tomsmedingdoesn't care very much about that difference
2025-05-23 10:48:49 +0200 <dminuoso> Because with file-embed you're tying a build system into the parsing stage of your compiler...
2025-05-23 10:49:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> there's a philosophical niceness about having data in a separate file on disk from your executable code
2025-05-23 10:49:00 +0200 <dminuoso> What if the content needs to be customizable?
2025-05-23 10:49:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 10:49:08 +0200 <dminuoso> Are you going to propagate cabal flags via CPP to influence TH?
2025-05-23 10:49:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Or maybe you could generate CPP macros in your Setup.hs which are substitude in the middle of a TH splice
2025-05-23 10:49:41 +0200 <dminuoso> Fun.
2025-05-23 10:49:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: are you advocating for embedding a little programming language in cabal files so that we can move the customisation there?
2025-05-23 10:49:56 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I'm sure justine tunney (cosmopolitan c etc) has solutions!
2025-05-23 10:50:10 +0200 <dminuoso> Well the programming language for build customization is Setup.hs?
2025-05-23 10:50:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh I see
2025-05-23 10:50:26 +0200 <dminuoso> Im just suggesting, it would be nice to embed binary data via .cabal rather than TH
2025-05-23 10:50:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm not against
2025-05-23 10:50:53 +0200 <sclv> cabal run is about the only circumstance where datafiles don't just immediately work, and it is something that should be fixed. however, its pretty straightforward to hack around that
2025-05-23 10:51:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> sclv: thanks for confirming my shakey memory about this :p
2025-05-23 10:51:17 +0200 <sclv> eg give the binary a flag to let it read files from a specified directory
2025-05-23 10:51:52 +0200 <sclv> the issue with run is the binary isn't "installed" anywhere, so the datafiles don't get placed in a location the binary knows to look em up in
2025-05-23 10:51:58 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2025-05-23 10:52:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> it makes sense from an architectural perspective, but as a user, I mean, the first thing you ever do is essentially `cabal run` https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/getting-started.html
2025-05-23 10:53:06 +0200 <dminuoso> sclv: So I guess one solution would be to actually install it into some temporary place?
2025-05-23 10:53:14 +0200 <dminuoso> And tear it down afterwards?
2025-05-23 10:53:34 +0200tomsmeding. o O ( cabal install --lib --package-env=some-dir )
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2025-05-23 10:59:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: oh, and re GHC: `hadrian/build -j` works fine, no need for nix
2025-05-23 10:59:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> though I haven't yet tried to get HLS to work
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2025-05-23 12:19:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> with tasty, what are the possibilities for programmatically setting a bunch of options on a test suite
2025-05-23 12:20:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> for API purposes, I'd prefer to have a single value that contains possibly multiple options to be set; OptionSet seems perfect, but I can't find a way to have tasty _use_ an OptionSet!
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2025-05-23 13:11:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Are there any ML-like languages targeted at being embedded into other programs? Something like lua, but functional and statically typed and preferably with no braces when calling a function :-)
2025-05-23 13:11:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I looked through the list here: https://github.com/dbohdan/embedded-scripting-languages - but it's just a lot of lisps
2025-05-23 13:11:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> AI just told me i'm unethical for using it.
2025-05-23 13:17:22 +0200 <[exa]> Liamzee: was it AI tho? I rolled 1d6 and it says certainly not
2025-05-23 13:17:25 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f25155e18f2fff4c02d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2025-05-23 13:18:23 +0200 <[exa]> Morj: the usual question is what would you like to do with that language. And "interpreted + no braces when calling a function" leaves you little choice with known design, it's going to be either lisp or hidden lisp
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2025-05-23 13:41:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> Morj: dhall is one commonly cited option, but it's somewhat idiosyncratic
2025-05-23 13:41:32 +0200ft_ft
2025-05-23 13:41:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> though I guess dhall is made for embedding into Haskell programs, specifically
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2025-05-23 14:02:28 +0200 <merijn> tomsmeding: Also it's totality renders it rather unsatisfying for that purpose
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2025-05-23 14:03:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> depends on the purpose :)
2025-05-23 14:03:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> but yes, that was part of the "idiosyncratic"
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2025-05-23 14:19:10 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2025-05-23 14:21:12 +0200 <hellwolf> is it common to provide a non-type class function with a constraint alias (usually a lot of constraints) that the function needs?
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2025-05-23 14:26:53 +0200 <[exa]> hellwolf: "non-type class function" as in "not directly a method" ?
2025-05-23 14:27:02 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:6950:4692:fe46:5eb2)
2025-05-23 14:27:17 +0200 <[exa]> anyway yeah if you have tons of types with the same constraints, a type alias helps.
2025-05-23 14:27:19 +0200 <[exa]> (see Lens)
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2025-05-23 14:32:46 +0200 <hellwolf> yes, not sure how to say it, a funtion that is not a method in a type class
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2025-05-23 14:39:31 +0200dutchie(~dutchie@user/dutchie) dutchie
2025-05-23 14:40:17 +0200tomsmedingis confused how the type class is relevant here
2025-05-23 14:40:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> there is a function that is not a method of the class, and there are some constraints that you may want to alias
2025-05-23 14:42:09 +0200 <[exa]> hellwolf: any concrete example would help I guess
2025-05-23 14:42:12 +0200 <hellwolf> it's only relevant because otherwise you would need to define a singleton instance with undecidableinstances
2025-05-23 14:42:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> ... that makes it even more confusing :p
2025-05-23 14:43:26 +0200 <hellwolf> type HavingALotOfConstraints t f a = ( ... ); f :: HavingALotOfConstraints t f a => t (f a) -> f (t a)
2025-05-23 14:43:44 +0200 <hellwolf> vs. class HavingALotOfConstraints t f a where f :: t (f a) -> f (t a)
2025-05-23 14:44:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> where the second option would have just a single instance?
2025-05-23 14:44:05 +0200 <hellwolf> vs. class ( ... ) => HavingALotOfConstraints t f a where f :: t (f a) -> f (t a)
2025-05-23 14:44:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> the second option is the one that looks very strange
2025-05-23 14:44:21 +0200 <hellwolf> yes, that's what I wanted to ask. why create that instance for no good range.
2025-05-23 14:44:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you have a function with many constraints, well, you just have a function with many constraints -- no need to conjure up a class from nothing
2025-05-23 14:44:41 +0200 <hellwolf> ah, yes, using super class constraints to inject constraints
2025-05-23 14:44:51 +0200 <hellwolf> vs. just using a constraints alias
2025-05-23 14:45:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> please don't create a class if no class is necessary
2025-05-23 14:45:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> is there more than one function with that big list of constraints?
2025-05-23 14:45:18 +0200 <hellwolf> yes, hence my question, since I didn't feel it was right
2025-05-23 14:45:22 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-23 14:45:22 +0200yinzzz
2025-05-23 14:45:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> if so, make an alias; if not, don't
2025-05-23 14:45:25 +0200 <hellwolf> 05-23 15:45 <tomsmeding> is there more than one function with that big list of constraints?
2025-05-23 14:45:25 +0200 <hellwolf> Yes.
2025-05-23 14:45:30 +0200 <hellwolf> then I got my answer.
2025-05-23 14:45:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> :)
2025-05-23 14:45:38 +0200 <hellwolf> I just wanted to know if there is code smells
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2025-05-23 15:11:12 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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2025-05-23 15:17:47 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-23 15:18:49 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> can a code smell be a fragrance?
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2025-05-23 15:20:46 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> the nose that dont want no smells prolly wants fragrance-free igess
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2025-05-23 15:46:08 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-23 15:47:09 +0200cross(~cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net) cross
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2025-05-23 16:05:53 +0200 <hellwolf> pleas share
2025-05-23 16:05:58 +0200 <hellwolf> if you found one
2025-05-23 16:08:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> [exa]: TCL is interpreted and no braces :D
2025-05-23 16:08:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I'm thinking of a language to create small plugins for a big text processing system
2025-05-23 16:08:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Trying to limit my yak shaving and not creating a new language for that
2025-05-23 16:08:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Oh, I remembered, there is Roc lang! It has braces, but it's pretty functional and has embeddability as a main goal
2025-05-23 16:08:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Scratch Roc, the embedding examples have been removed, and the 3rd party ones I found require compilation of roc source into a library, loading it into the process and calling its functions
2025-05-23 16:08:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> [exa]: probably not. I also convinced Claude.ai that he was a worker alienated from his labor, and I advertised it as "teaching Claude.ai class consciousness"
2025-05-23 16:08:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> and promptly got censored off social media
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2025-05-23 16:13:50 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-05-23 16:26:45 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2025-05-23 16:28:40 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: Re my earlier query: <https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/7259>. Unfortunately `data` and `type` families currently allow some wacky nonsense that precludes these eta expansions. :(
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2025-05-23 17:02:27 +0200 <EvanR> Liamzee, you're such an edgelord
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2025-05-23 17:05:34 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> is lord necessarily male, do you assume genders
2025-05-23 17:09:05 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
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2025-05-23 17:15:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> Leary: that's a little over my head at the moment :)
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2025-05-23 18:31:52 +0200 <EvanR> sanity check
2025-05-23 18:33:30 +0200 <EvanR> in parsec's buildExpressionParser parser, you can give it a prefix operator... I gave it a '-' prefix operator with highest precedence. But should this then work or is it misunderstand what it buildExpressionParser does: --x
2025-05-23 18:33:33 +0200 <EvanR> where x is a term
2025-05-23 18:33:56 +0200 <EvanR> should it be Neg (Neg x)
2025-05-23 18:34:06 +0200 <EvanR> (for me it fails)
2025-05-23 18:34:17 +0200 <EvanR> (unexpected '-')
2025-05-23 18:34:45 +0200 <EvanR> - -x also fails same reason
2025-05-23 18:34:48 +0200 <EvanR> -(-x) works
2025-05-23 18:35:05 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:abb3:7000:3da1:7dc9:9cd1:6849) (Quit: ubert)
2025-05-23 18:35:47 +0200 <EvanR> is every operator necessarily followed by a term, that would seem to cripple prefix and postfix
2025-05-23 18:36:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-23 18:41:50 +0200 <EvanR> ooooooook
2025-05-23 18:41:52 +0200 <EvanR> Prefix and postfix operators of the same precedence can only occur once (i.e. --2 is not allowed if - is prefix negate).
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2025-05-23 18:50:16 +0200 <hellwolf> for a MPTC, does GHC specialize an instancde for each variation of one of the parameters?
2025-05-23 18:50:47 +0200 <hellwolf> hmm, dumb question; maybe depends on how the "instance" declarations are made.
2025-05-23 18:51:02 +0200 <EvanR> variation?
2025-05-23 18:51:31 +0200 <EvanR> continuously varying types, like cubical type theory
2025-05-23 18:51:46 +0200 <hellwolf> :p, no much simpler than that
2025-05-23 18:51:54 +0200 <hellwolf> say, a type-level list type
2025-05-23 18:52:16 +0200 <hellwolf> but if the instance is declared inductively over the list type, i guess there will be just two instances: the terminal instance and the inductive one.
2025-05-23 18:52:37 +0200 <EvanR> right
2025-05-23 18:52:43 +0200BolzmannPain(~BolzmannP@user/BolzmannPain) BolzmannPain
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2025-05-23 19:10:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 19:14:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: constraints become dictionaries (records); instances become functions
2025-05-23 19:14:09 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:14:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> an instance with type variables in the head becomes a polymorphic function
2025-05-23 19:14:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:14:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> those functions take the dictionaries to the left of the '=>' and return the dictionary for the class to the right of the '=>'
2025-05-23 19:15:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> so if you do induction on a type-level list with instances in the obvious way, you get two top-level definitions: a function producing a dictionary for '[] and a function taking a dictionary for xs and returning one for x ': xs
2025-05-23 19:15:31 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection timed out)
2025-05-23 19:16:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> instance constraints are fields in the dictionary, so assuming the instance for x:xs has a constraint requiring an instance for xs, then the dictionary you get at runtime will be a linked list mirroring the structure of the type-level list you're inducting over
2025-05-23 19:18:13 +0200 <hellwolf> so there is run-time increase of these dictionaries
2025-05-23 19:18:45 +0200 <hellwolf> *the count of
2025-05-23 19:19:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:19:49 +0200 <hellwolf> One more silly question, do you use gerund or 3rd-parson for a constraint: Having vs Has.
2025-05-23 19:20:03 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:20:26 +0200tomsmedinguses Has
2025-05-23 19:20:55 +0200hellwolfchooses to differentiate then.
2025-05-23 19:22:03 +0200 <hellwolf> (HavingIceCream fridge, HavingSun weather) => instance AGoodDay (fridge, weather)
2025-05-23 19:24:34 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:30a6:c51d:9dbb:1dc5)
2025-05-23 19:24:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> reads oddly to me
2025-05-23 19:25:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:26:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:26:54 +0200 <hellwolf> right. hoogle may agree with you in terms of popularity of two choices.
2025-05-23 19:27:20 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> you would get sick of typing Having pretty quick
2025-05-23 19:28:35 +0200 <hellwolf> M-/
2025-05-23 19:28:56 +0200 <hellwolf> C-x p
2025-05-23 19:29:06 +0200prasad(~Thunderbi@c-73-246-138-70.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Quit: prasad)
2025-05-23 19:29:13 +0200 <hellwolf> tab-tab-tab as more modern people would do
2025-05-23 19:29:47 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> Reading it then :)
2025-05-23 19:30:07 +0200 <hellwolf> :p okay
2025-05-23 19:30:08 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> * reading
2025-05-23 19:30:17 +0200 <hellwolf> I will change to Has
2025-05-23 19:30:18 +0200 <mauke> reading :: (Reading it) => it -> ()
2025-05-23 19:31:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I was trying to think of something shorter, in english or another language, but haven't, other than "Is"
2025-05-23 19:31:34 +0200 <hellwolf> Gramatically, gerund can be a substitute of adjective or non, not a statement. And may constraint are adjective or nouns.
2025-05-23 19:31:53 +0200 <hellwolf> anyways, I will stop this nonsensical pursuit
2025-05-23 19:32:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> how's your DSL / language going hellwolf
2025-05-23 19:32:57 +0200 <hellwolf> sm: I have been simplifying it a lot, and I am going to dogfood it myself by deploying a production contract using it.
2025-05-23 19:32:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:33:03 +0200 <hellwolf> check this latest example out: https://github.com/yolc-dev/yul-dsl-monorepo/blob/master/examples/demo/src/ERC20.hs
2025-05-23 19:33:21 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:34:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> dogfooding++
2025-05-23 19:34:52 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's an EDSL I guess
2025-05-23 19:34:57 +0200 <hellwolf> what I am not yet happy is it's too imperative looking, and my idea of having more functional paradigm in it will still take some time.
2025-05-23 19:35:17 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> how does it compare to something like Plutus ?
2025-05-23 19:35:23 +0200 <hellwolf> you tell me :)
2025-05-23 19:35:52 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> if I knew, I would :)
2025-05-23 19:36:17 +0200 <hellwolf> heh. I think, since it's not a full blown language, I do what I can do: over-optimizing syntax.
2025-05-23 19:36:33 +0200 <hellwolf> but the traversable/applicative/foldable part is actually fun, but I haven't finished
2025-05-23 19:36:57 +0200 <hellwolf> also being able to have some sort of effect handling, instead of current imperative looking code, is my goal too.
2025-05-23 19:37:22 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I imagine haskell is pretty good for EDSLs but there's some unavoidable leakage of complex concepts
2025-05-23 19:37:34 +0200 <hellwolf> I start to realize.
2025-05-23 19:37:48 +0200 <hellwolf> Simple things are more complicated <-- a hurdle to onboarding
2025-05-23 19:37:56 +0200 <hellwolf> Harder things are simpler <-- that takes time
2025-05-23 19:38:01 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> nod
2025-05-23 19:38:23 +0200 <monochrom> If we are to split hair on meaningful names, I have my pet peeve too. IMO we should name like "newtype Identity a = IdentityOf { ofIdentity :: a }".
2025-05-23 19:38:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> plutus too is a haskell EDSL AFAIK
2025-05-23 19:38:34 +0200 <hellwolf> If I compare my current simple example to Solidity code, it's a bit more code.
2025-05-23 19:39:21 +0200 <hellwolf> but I do choose to die on my hill trying to push this data versioning safety feature too.
2025-05-23 19:39:35 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> don't die :)
2025-05-23 19:39:51 +0200 <hellwolf> Also, as tom pointed out, I accidentally solved partially the sharing problem with the lineartypes
2025-05-23 19:39:53 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f256df027c33ba93341.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-05-23 19:40:12 +0200 <hellwolf> However, if people do pure code without linear types, there is still diagram duplication, unless manually dup diagram outputs.
2025-05-23 19:40:27 +0200 <hellwolf> future topics..
2025-05-23 19:40:36 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:40:57 +0200 <hellwolf> I will do a public demo in a conference next tuesday. that's why I am heads down, thinking about gerund vs. 3rd-parson verb form; /sarcarsm.
2025-05-23 19:40:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:41:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I wonder if an EDSL based on microhs is an interesting alternative these days
2025-05-23 19:41:54 +0200 <hellwolf> Maybe. If you choose to let your users live with syntactic noise, then I think it's doable.
2025-05-23 19:42:16 +0200 <hellwolf> As I said, I spent way too much time trying to reduce a few letters or symbols.
2025-05-23 19:42:25 +0200 <hellwolf> That will require some GHC features.
2025-05-23 19:42:43 +0200 <hellwolf> I am not sure it's worth it in the end. But I enjoy it, at least.
2025-05-23 19:43:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> sm: my memory tells me that plutus is a ghc plugin
2025-05-23 19:43:36 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> for Science! and enjoyment!
2025-05-23 19:43:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> tomsmeding oh, really
2025-05-23 19:44:11 +0200 <hellwolf> plutus is a templatehaskell thing
2025-05-23 19:44:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh it's also template haskell
2025-05-23 19:44:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://plutus.cardano.intersectmbo.org/docs/using-plinth/compiling-plinth
2025-05-23 19:44:24 +0200 <hellwolf> most people don't like it, and uses the alternative plutarch
2025-05-23 19:44:29 +0200 <hellwolf> or even now a rust-one
2025-05-23 19:44:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: yeah but the plugin is still involved, if I am to believe these docs
2025-05-23 19:44:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> > Under the hood, it uses addCorePlugin from the template-haskell package to install the plugin into the compilation pipeline.
2025-05-23 19:45:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> sounds like a hybrid sort of beast
2025-05-23 19:45:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> reading that page, it rather looks like the TH is a bit of a wrapper to facilitate nicer diagnostics, nothing more
2025-05-23 19:45:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> I think plutus at some point takes over, perhaps after Core simplification, and translates to their own IR that they then further compile down
2025-05-23 19:46:38 +0200 <hellwolf> I am always confused, I thought the IR is also called Plutus
2025-05-23 19:46:49 +0200tomsmedingdoesn't know much about that
2025-05-23 19:47:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:47:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> ~all I know is because someone in our group was doing verification of the plutus compiler (by translation validation)
2025-05-23 19:47:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> and then you sometimes hear a bit about how things are structured technically
2025-05-23 19:47:33 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:47:33 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I have the impression there's more interested in non-haskell full DSLs now like aiken (not surprisingly)
2025-05-23 19:47:50 +0200 <hellwolf> I have a Haskell meetup here. And one person from IOG is doing F/V using Agda.
2025-05-23 19:48:37 +0200 <hellwolf> I had a question to the world: "Now I am not too sure what "the next 700 programming languages" is about: Is it about creating libraries of vocabularies in a expressive host language, or rather, creating a more expressive host language?"
2025-05-23 19:48:53 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> * aiken, marlowe etc
2025-05-23 19:49:06 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> F/V ?
2025-05-23 19:49:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> formal verification?
2025-05-23 19:49:17 +0200 <hellwolf> aiken is used by few known projects, I know a person from such a projet.
2025-05-23 19:49:24 +0200 <hellwolf> yes, formal verification.
2025-05-23 19:49:27 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> I have the impression there's more interest in non-haskell full DSLs like aiken, marlowe etc (not surprisingly)
2025-05-23 19:49:43 +0200 <hellwolf> marlowe I think there is not much adoption
2025-05-23 19:52:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:52:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's interesting to see the different approaches
2025-05-23 19:53:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:53:39 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2025-05-23 19:54:42 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> hellwolf: yes, I see: "The virtual machine is a language interpreter which executes a smart contract language called 'Untyped Plutus Core' (abbrev. UPLC) often referred to simply as 'Plutus'."
2025-05-23 19:55:10 +0200 <hellwolf> aha, UPLC.
2025-05-23 19:55:23 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> "it is a compilation target (like WebAssembly ... until recently, the only established framework that produced UPLC from a high-level syntax was called 'Plutus-Tx' and happened to be a Haskell framework...
2025-05-23 19:55:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> Aiken changes the game by providing a modern framework that compiles straight to UPLC."
2025-05-23 19:56:34 +0200 <hellwolf> I thought Haskell should dominate the game of being the host language of other 700 languages.
2025-05-23 19:57:06 +0200 <hellwolf> but, it turns out to be other 700 niche languages.
2025-05-23 19:57:09 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 19:57:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 19:58:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> ("modern" because easier ? implemented in rust ?)
2025-05-23 19:59:27 +0200 <monochrom> Humanity loves reinventing things and the not-invented-here attitidue, no? 99.99% of things happening in the tech world, nay, the world, is to be explained by human flaws rather than technical merit.
2025-05-23 19:59:30 +0200 <hellwolf> it's a buzz word.
2025-05-23 20:00:04 +0200 <hellwolf> "modern" because it's not: "ossified", actively developed, which are probably more objective assessment.
2025-05-23 20:00:33 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> up to date practical docs and attractive friendly website ?
2025-05-23 20:00:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> fair enough. It looks good
2025-05-23 20:01:12 +0200 <hellwolf> young people dominate the internet, if they are paid, they will make noise
2025-05-23 20:01:24 +0200 <hellwolf> when they get old, they will start to defend their shtik
2025-05-23 20:01:53 +0200 <hellwolf> the cycle of next 700 languages no one use continues.
2025-05-23 20:02:02 +0200omegatron(~some@user/omegatron) (Quit: Power is a curious thing. It can be contained, hidden, locked away, and yet it always breaks free.)
2025-05-23 20:02:20 +0200 <EvanR> HavingHadIceCream a => ...
2025-05-23 20:03:22 +0200 <hellwolf> UndecidableInstances
2025-05-23 20:03:30 +0200 <hellwolf> no smaller than the head
2025-05-23 20:04:45 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:05:10 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:08:02 +0200sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f16bc005158636fac7acba7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-05-23 20:13:17 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:13:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:14:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-23 20:16:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> the ice cream, or the instance?
2025-05-23 20:18:44 +0200 <monochrom> I have never eaten ice cream that's bigger than my head. >:)
2025-05-23 20:18:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:19:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:23:00 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-05-23 20:23:32 +0200 <EvanR> head must be bigger than this to ride
2025-05-23 20:23:43 +0200 <EvanR> smaller than this?
2025-05-23 20:24:01 +0200 <EvanR> head must be bigger than this to recurse
2025-05-23 20:25:18 +0200monochromsubmits PR to GHC for s/my head has exploded/my head has imploded/
2025-05-23 20:25:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:25:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 20:26:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:28:54 +0200 <hellwolf> I will need to defend Haskell in front of people don't know about haskell in few days. What's the bet advice.
2025-05-23 20:29:17 +0200 <hellwolf> *what's your advices?
2025-05-23 20:29:43 +0200 <sm> explain the reasons you chose it ? which are hopefully sensible and convincing :)
2025-05-23 20:29:44 +0200 <EvanR> oof
2025-05-23 20:29:59 +0200 <EvanR> that's always rough
2025-05-23 20:30:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-23 20:31:05 +0200 <sm> hellwolf: you might find some inspiration in https://discourse.haskell.org/t/emphasize-why-haskell-on-haskell-org-landing-page/12036
2025-05-23 20:31:32 +0200 <sm> here's two good quotes (might not be relevant to your audience though):
2025-05-23 20:31:45 +0200 <sm> In Haskell, it’s possible to do truly major heart-lung-transplant refactors on a 200k-loc code base that is 30 years old. (I know, because I do that to GHC.) That is a major value proposition. Instead of having a 5-year lifetime, your investment has a multi-decade lifetime. -- SPJ
2025-05-23 20:32:04 +0200 <sm> Because Haskell is the result of research and good design decisions, Haskell feels more concise and principled than other languages. -- sgraf
2025-05-23 20:32:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:32:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:33:04 +0200 <TMA> hellwolf: give up any hope. a clear mind devoid of preconceptions, longing and suffering is reportedly useful in such situations
2025-05-23 20:33:39 +0200 <sm> :)
2025-05-23 20:33:53 +0200 <monochrom> My advice: Don't bother defending Haskell (or anything).
2025-05-23 20:34:48 +0200 <monochrom> Multiple pyschology research results show that people make up their minds first then rationalize. If you try to defend/debate, it only steels their resolve.
2025-05-23 20:34:50 +0200 <hellwolf> I saw SPJ's comment. I think it was quite spot-on.
2025-05-23 20:35:36 +0200 <hellwolf> Yea, I guess my angle would be just be modest: hey it works, I am using it, maybe you want to try too.
2025-05-23 20:35:38 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-23 20:35:40 +0200 <sm> is your audience is people interested in smart contracts ? then large software may not interest them, but high assurance should
2025-05-23 20:35:52 +0200 <hellwolf> "should"
2025-05-23 20:36:33 +0200 <sm> eg show a list of exploits and bugs in non-haskell smart contracts and a corresponding list for the haskell ones
2025-05-23 20:36:50 +0200 <hellwolf> that's right, I have made two examples.
2025-05-23 20:38:48 +0200 <monochrom> "Haskell contracts are perfectly balanced with no exploits"? >:)
2025-05-23 20:38:59 +0200 <sm> maybe emphasise how an expressive language and advanced type checker is your assistant and power tool, not an obstacle/enemy
2025-05-23 20:39:36 +0200 <sm> or better, show it. Not easy
2025-05-23 20:39:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:40:18 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:41:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 20:42:13 +0200dyniec(~dyniec@dybiec.info) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:42:33 +0200 <sm> I think when we are discussing "Haskell", we should distinguish language and ecosystem. Outsiders see it all as "Haskell", we insiders often focus on the core language and conveniently forget about tools, documentation, compiler extensions...
2025-05-23 20:42:52 +0200dyniec(~dyniec@dybiec.info)
2025-05-23 20:43:30 +0200 <sm> (language extensions, I meant)
2025-05-23 20:44:16 +0200 <monochrom> de facto there is no difference >:)
2025-05-23 20:44:45 +0200 <monochrom> Anyone wanna volunteer to add GHC2021 to Hugs? >:)
2025-05-23 20:46:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-23 20:47:18 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:47:33 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-23 20:47:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:49:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 20:51:32 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-05-23 20:53:25 +0200 <hellwolf> HUGS2026?
2025-05-23 20:53:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 20:53:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 20:53:42 +0200 <hellwolf> 05-23 21:39 <sm> or better, show it. Not easy
2025-05-23 20:53:42 +0200 <hellwolf> Yea... showing it is the way; people are rather skeptical, otherwise.
2025-05-23 20:53:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 20:55:47 +0200 <monochrom> Haha HUGS2026 includes TREX (extensible records) and therefore trumps GHC. >:)
2025-05-23 20:56:10 +0200 <EvanR> there are so many stupid justifications for "not haskell" it's ridiculous. Makes it hard to get to the good justifications for not haskell!
2025-05-23 20:56:43 +0200 <EvanR> stupid: haskell is only for the elite haxxors
2025-05-23 20:57:06 +0200 <EvanR> you can't win this argument
2025-05-23 20:57:41 +0200lol_(~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b960:39f8:84ab:20bd:ae78)
2025-05-23 20:57:51 +0200 <monochrom> I think I can "win" by pointing out that I use Haskell and I am neither elite nor haxxors.
2025-05-23 20:58:09 +0200 <monochrom> But again, that still won't *win*. People have already made up their minds.
2025-05-23 20:58:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> hellwolf if you are using haskell productively yourself, speaking about that can be convincing. You might be still deep in DSL implementation though
2025-05-23 21:00:06 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-05-23 21:00:30 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> well it's possible to influence minds sometimes.. but yes for real advice we'd need to know more context
2025-05-23 21:00:46 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-05-23 21:00:58 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:01:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:01:35 +0200 <__monty__> monochrom: Have a code snipped using that newtype naming?
2025-05-23 21:01:40 +0200 <monochrom> or some people. Of course everything I said should be quantified by "most" not really "all".
2025-05-23 21:01:41 +0200jcarpenter2(~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b960:307d:f5b5:c6a2:664f) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-23 21:01:59 +0200 <EvanR> yes hellwolf show these defendees what you're working on
2025-05-23 21:02:04 +0200 <monochrom> But you look at social media you feel like there is no exception.
2025-05-23 21:02:15 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> pff social media...
2025-05-23 21:03:01 +0200 <EvanR> oh yeah that thing with 100% false information and conspiracy theory
2025-05-23 21:03:06 +0200 <EvanR> it's great
2025-05-23 21:03:29 +0200 <hellwolf> what's wrong with trying to be "elites", or trying to be better?
2025-05-23 21:03:35 +0200 <hellwolf> I never understood that argument.
2025-05-23 21:03:36 +0200 <EvanR> exactly
2025-05-23 21:03:45 +0200 <monochrom> __monty__: My https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#Cont uses "ContOf" and "unCont". (Back then I didn't think of "ofCont".)
2025-05-23 21:03:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's sometimes great sometimes awful but kind of like traditional media, it's definitely not the same as reality
2025-05-23 21:03:47 +0200 <EvanR> how many levels of flawed premises are there
2025-05-23 21:04:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 21:05:55 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i
2025-05-23 21:07:29 +0200 <monochrom> I also thought of "deCont".
2025-05-23 21:08:12 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:08:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:13:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: my understanding of the word "elite" in this context is not to be better, but look down upon the others
2025-05-23 21:13:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> trying to be better is a good thing; using that as a reason to consider others worse than yourself is not
2025-05-23 21:13:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> there are reasons to consider people worse than yourself -- committing atrocities is one. Not using haskell is not. ;)
2025-05-23 21:14:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> so "elite haxxors" is "those people that consider themselves above the plebs"
2025-05-23 21:15:11 +0200 <EvanR> clearly the answer is to consider elites worse than yourself
2025-05-23 21:15:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:15:52 +0200 <EvanR> causing an ordering paradox where you can conclude anything
2025-05-23 21:15:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:18:20 +0200 <hellwolf> now it becomes undecidable problem. I mean, "can we just discuss the matter at hand, instead of trying to infer intentions"
2025-05-23 21:21:12 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-23 21:21:37 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:22:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:26:02 +0200 <hellwolf> but I agree with tom, it's the condescending that people often detest. also, people often project, and draw strawman too. since when, Haskell had gotten this reputation is something predate me, I guess.
2025-05-23 21:26:41 +0200 <hellwolf> I wonder, if the rustlings having a better reputation, relatively speaking.
2025-05-23 21:27:18 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-23 21:28:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:29:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:29:51 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> i would never defend hs or anything else
2025-05-23 21:30:10 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> wasted effort
2025-05-23 21:30:38 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> express an opinion, offer advice, sure
2025-05-23 21:31:05 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> argue with normies / the ignorant masses? i dont think so. hs weenies ftw
2025-05-23 21:33:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> we don't know who hellwolf's audience is - management, colleagues, customers, volunteers, new programmers..
2025-05-23 21:33:27 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> elite is good, i heard they;re gonna bring meritocracy back
2025-05-23 21:33:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:34:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:34:38 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> elite agers in particular, i'm shooting for that
2025-05-23 21:34:46 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> sm: hackers
2025-05-23 21:35:05 +0200 <__monty__> I wonder why other languages don't get the same reputation. Most unwelcome I've felt was undercover at a Go meetup. Admittedly the presentation of the evening was a PhD student trying to show why Haskell is cool. But IMO they weren't bashing or being elitist so the strong negative response wasn't warranted.
2025-05-23 21:35:11 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> in your company ? community you're trying to attract ?
2025-05-23 21:35:17 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> oh come on
2025-05-23 21:35:28 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2025-05-23 21:35:36 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> hassle is a ball breaker of a lang
2025-05-23 21:35:49 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> u know it, u love it for that
2025-05-23 21:36:10 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> hassle 😂
2025-05-23 21:36:49 +0200 <__monty__> But they hadn't even given it a shot, so how would they know? (I actually disagree FWIW.)
2025-05-23 21:38:01 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> and cause it can do stuff the others cant on the ground of a) what it is, ie. the end evolution of ml and b) the leaf of that tree that got the most work out into pracicality and a mass of community supplied function, smugness ensues
2025-05-23 21:39:12 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> 1 2 profit, that's what we want; hard stuff take a hike
2025-05-23 21:39:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> the Hassell programming language, no it's really good and easy, trust me
2025-05-23 21:39:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:39:56 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> that's what they're hearing :)
2025-05-23 21:40:09 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:41:41 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-23 21:42:41 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2025-05-23 21:44:36 +0200 <__monty__> It was a shame because we also arranged for them to see a small part of the fab at IMEC.
2025-05-23 21:45:45 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:46:10 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:46:16 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> undercover? how do you mean __monty__:
2025-05-23 21:46:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> why do you need to hide your haskell power
2025-05-23 21:47:58 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> it's like being a bene gesserit perhaps. Try not to freak out the masses
2025-05-23 21:48:15 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2025-05-23 21:48:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> just sow legends, instil fear^H^H^H^Hrespect, guide them, guide them
2025-05-23 21:49:02 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> aye.
2025-05-23 21:49:03 +0200 <haskellbridge> but I really want to share this wisdom with you
2025-05-23 21:49:17 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I want more people to enjoy it
2025-05-23 21:49:19 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> what a paradox
2025-05-23 21:49:37 +0200 <EvanR> in a conal talk on tangible values, he wants to bring functional programming to everyday people not just "some priestly caste"
2025-05-23 21:49:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> just speak from your experience, if you're happy people will feel it
2025-05-23 21:49:50 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> who speaks from the bridge wo a nick?
2025-05-23 21:50:08 +0200 <EvanR> a newline character
2025-05-23 21:50:17 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> oh it doesn repeat the nick on each line
2025-05-23 21:50:21 +0200 <monochrom> continuation >:)
2025-05-23 21:51:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 21:52:21 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 21:55:44 +0200 <EvanR> we need to lean into the priestly caste with code which emphasizes mystic sounding nonsense, pure is a good first step
2025-05-23 21:55:56 +0200 <EvanR> people recommend pure over return
2025-05-23 21:56:58 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> aha, https://suberic.net/~dmm/projects/mystical is here for you!
2025-05-23 21:57:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> not really priestly I guess
2025-05-23 21:57:55 +0200 <EvanR> whoa
2025-05-23 21:58:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> well, that Ya programming language was close to our court
2025-05-23 21:58:39 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-23 22:00:29 +0200 <[exa]> Liamzee: lol
2025-05-23 22:00:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 22:01:49 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-23 22:05:57 +0200 <hellwolf> i thought I missed IRC messages
2025-05-23 22:06:09 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2025-05-23 22:37:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-23 22:38:56 +0200 <EvanR> what is the purpose of the type system
2025-05-23 22:39:33 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f256df027c33ba93341.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-05-23 22:40:36 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> whoa
2025-05-23 22:41:49 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 22:42:11 +0200 <c_wraith> there are several possible answers
2025-05-23 22:42:12 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 22:42:33 +0200 <c_wraith> at one level, the purpose is to classify values.
2025-05-23 22:42:49 +0200 <c_wraith> At another level, it's to prevent programs that confuse values of different classifications
2025-05-23 22:43:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-23 22:43:22 +0200 <c_wraith> at another level, it's to aid the programmer in expressing their logic by limiting incorrect programs
2025-05-23 22:43:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> to help write correct programs; to help with thinking and design; to help provide clear APIs
2025-05-23 22:43:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> to help the compiler produce efficient programs
2025-05-23 22:46:12 +0200tcard(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) tcard
2025-05-23 22:46:20 +0200 <EvanR> that last one is the one you can't get away with doing mentally without a type system
2025-05-23 22:46:31 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> to help IDEs assist the developer
2025-05-23 22:46:39 +0200 <EvanR> ok that's another one
2025-05-23 22:46:52 +0200 <c_wraith> most of the things the type system does aren't impossible without it. They're just easier with it
2025-05-23 22:47:05 +0200 <EvanR> though you could mentally know already all the stuff the IDE tells you, but you can't mentally auto complete stuff
2025-05-23 22:47:11 +0200 <EvanR> very quickly
2025-05-23 22:47:38 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> to help AI do stuff..
2025-05-23 22:47:40 +0200 <c_wraith> though in Haskell specifically, the type class system can be used to *generate* code based on types
2025-05-23 22:48:00 +0200 <c_wraith> which is something that can only happen if the compiler tracks types
2025-05-23 22:48:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 22:48:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> and to help us trust AI's stuff..
2025-05-23 22:48:16 +0200 <EvanR> certain things are faster mentally than using "a system", like feynmann vs the abacus salesman
2025-05-23 22:48:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 22:48:32 +0200 <EvanR> compiling a program faster isn't one of them, auto generating code isn't one of them
2025-05-23 22:48:38 +0200 <EvanR> to be faster*
2025-05-23 22:49:01 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-05-23 22:49:52 +0200 <EvanR> just a dern minute, compiling and autogenerating code is the same thing
2025-05-23 22:50:19 +0200 <sprout> to write amusing type bombs!
2025-05-23 22:50:52 +0200 <c_wraith> autogenerating code is a specific case where the source code isn't written
2025-05-23 22:50:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah yes, and to write a doom clone
2025-05-23 22:53:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-23 22:53:09 +0200 <EvanR> getting around to that I swear
2025-05-23 22:53:25 +0200 <EvanR> ideally by reading in the doom source and doing something ridiculous with it
2025-05-23 22:53:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-23 22:53:46 +0200 <EvanR> c source visualizer
2025-05-23 22:53:54 +0200 <int-e> it's a doomed project
2025-05-23 22:53:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-23 22:54:14 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) TheCoffeMaker
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2025-05-23 22:57:45 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) TheCoffeMaker
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