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2025/05/14

2025-05-14 00:02:04 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-14 00:03:29 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 00:03:43 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) Unicorn_Princess
2025-05-14 00:04:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> xeno11: "collect2: fatal error: cannot find ‘ld’"
2025-05-14 00:04:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> xeno11: I suspect that this is the actual error, and that cabal just misinterprets failure of gcc as something completely unrelated (and wrong)
2025-05-14 00:05:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> do you have a working gcc and ld? :p
2025-05-14 00:05:16 +0200 <int-e> note that ghc passes '-fuse-ld=gold' there
2025-05-14 00:05:25 +0200esnos(~user@194.29.137.22)
2025-05-14 00:05:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:05:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> despite the only earlier occurrence of the string "gold" in that log being "Cannot find ld.gold on the path"
2025-05-14 00:06:59 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2025-05-14 00:06:59 +0200 <int-e> ghc --info | grep gold
2025-05-14 00:07:05 +0200 <int-e> is likely to find gold ;-)
2025-05-14 00:08:44 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:09:08 +0200 <int-e> it's funny (and annoying) though that cabal diagnoses this as a missing C library
2025-05-14 00:09:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess cabal assumes that gcc always succeeds unless there was a linker error, and a linker error "always" means that one of the C libraries wasn't available
2025-05-14 00:10:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> to be fair I don't blame cabal for not trying to parse linker errors, but it would do well, perhaps, to pass on the error to the user instead of waiting until -v3 (not even -v, -v3!) to display it
2025-05-14 00:11:14 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:11:31 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-05-14 00:12:18 +0200tomsmedingis afk
2025-05-14 00:12:48 +0200esnos(~user@194.29.137.22) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 00:13:14 +0200zarek(~user@194.29.137.22)
2025-05-14 00:14:31 +0200 <zarek> Hi, I already done beginner books about haskell and now I want to do something with Cardano, do you know how can I start?
2025-05-14 00:15:24 +0200 <zarek> And do I need to learn about some more abstractions? I know everything up to state monads, but I don't know gadts or arrows
2025-05-14 00:16:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 00:21:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:26:52 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:31:07 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2025-05-14 00:31:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 00:32:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 00:33:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-14 00:35:17 +0200 <EvanR> zarek, dunno about cardano but would you be interested in game programming
2025-05-14 00:35:30 +0200 <EvanR> it is surely to make you collide with more abstractions
2025-05-14 00:37:02 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2025-05-14 00:37:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:39:47 +0200 <zarek> EvanR: Yes, I'm also interested
2025-05-14 00:40:11 +0200 <sim590> int-e, tomsmeding: seems like ld.gold is deprecated apprently. But cabal still uses it by default? Shouldn't it stop to use it at some point?
2025-05-14 00:41:19 +0200 <int-e> sim590: my guess is that using ld.gold is baked into the ghc binary you're using. that's what the ghc --info comment was about
2025-05-14 00:42:23 +0200 <int-e> Or, technically, not the binary but the `settings` files it ships with. So if you feel adventerous you can change that.
2025-05-14 00:42:30 +0200 <zarek> EvanR: Would you recommend some library for it or blog post/book about programming game in haskell? I only today saw this video about programming game in haskell in haskell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MNTerD8IuI&list=PLcGKfGEEONaCyiY7-IV6boavjCIG7q1vd&
2025-05-14 00:42:54 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2025-05-14 00:43:06 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:43:26 +0200 <sim590> int-e: So, it's something that would be likely to change by itself if GHC was upgraded, right?
2025-05-14 00:43:58 +0200 <EvanR> there is #haskell-game and HaskellGameDev discord, with its own links and references, though things have slowed down in the last few months
2025-05-14 00:44:09 +0200 <int-e> sim590: maybe. afaics you're using ghc-up so you're relying on that upstream's build configuration
2025-05-14 00:44:20 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2025-05-14 00:44:25 +0200 <sim590> int-e: yep.
2025-05-14 00:44:32 +0200 <zarek> sim590: by any chance did you install ghc by pacman in arch linux? If yes, thank I suggest nuke everything and install everything from curl link
2025-05-14 00:44:57 +0200 <int-e> sim590: you can override the linker in your cabal config, that's probably the easier route for making progress right now
2025-05-14 00:45:28 +0200 <int-e> zarek: ironically that would likely use a linker that's actually installed
2025-05-14 00:45:44 +0200 <int-e> (the trouble is elsewhere)
2025-05-14 00:45:56 +0200 <EvanR> forwarding that link to the other channel looks interesting
2025-05-14 00:46:15 +0200 <sim590> zarek: One of my machines I use have arch and the other has debian.
2025-05-14 00:46:27 +0200 <sim590> But I actually didn't have any issue on Arch.
2025-05-14 00:47:06 +0200 <sim590> I only got issues with debian when dist-upgrading (same as xeno11). I guess that the `binutils-gold` was removed when we did a `dist-upgrade` and that confused everything.
2025-05-14 00:47:33 +0200 <int-e> zarek: it's irrelevant anyway: --with-ghc=/home/xkappel/.ghcup/bin/ghc
2025-05-14 00:48:06 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2025-05-14 00:48:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 00:49:36 +0200 <zarek> I remember this is how I solved my problems with ghcup and rest of haskell, but if this isn't solution than I don't know
2025-05-14 00:52:00 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> hi zarek, cardano has lots of getting started and learning haskell resources doesn't it; we don't know them all here
2025-05-14 00:52:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> and, welcome
2025-05-14 00:52:30 +0200 <int-e> sim590: Anyway. The path of least resistance is to install ld.gold (it may be deprecated but it works as a linker). The next easiest idea is to tweak, hmm, ld-location I suppose in ~/.cabal/config. After that it's editing the settings file inside the ghc distribution and after that it's finding a "better" ghc package.
2025-05-14 00:52:55 +0200 <int-e> glhf
2025-05-14 00:53:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 00:53:54 +0200 <sim590> int-e: isn't it possible to just pass an option to GHC to force not using ld.gold, but stick to plain ld ?
2025-05-14 00:54:25 +0200 <sim590> So we could just protect ourselves with an option in a `cabal.project` file or literally inside the cabal file.
2025-05-14 00:55:01 +0200 <int-e> sim590: which is what cabal would do if you instructed it accordingly, and doing it in the config file feels less painful than doing it on every invokation
2025-05-14 00:55:44 +0200 <sim590> int-e: It would not be in the invocation, but in a config file in the project repo.
2025-05-14 00:56:03 +0200 <sim590> I thought ourproject.cabal in the `ghc-options:` section.
2025-05-14 00:56:06 +0200 <int-e> it's a local configuration so putting it into the project is wrong
2025-05-14 00:57:11 +0200 <int-e> (and you'll run into this with *every* haskell project as long as you use this particular ghc, and probably other versions shipped with ghc-up too)
2025-05-14 00:57:11 +0200 <sim590> At least, we can put it in `cabal.project`, so it's not shipped anywhere.
2025-05-14 00:57:35 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@205.175.106.139) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 00:57:51 +0200 <int-e> it really is a thing that pretty much unambiguously belongs in ~/.cabal/config
2025-05-14 00:58:03 +0200 <int-e> and not in some project-related file
2025-05-14 00:59:55 +0200 <geekosaur> it should probably go in ghc's settings file fwiw
2025-05-14 01:00:18 +0200 <int-e> sure but then you're bound to clash with ghc-up eventually
2025-05-14 01:00:31 +0200 <xeno11> tomsmeding:,int-e: thanks for the help, much appreciated
2025-05-14 01:00:58 +0200 <xeno11> tomsmeding: , int-e: *
2025-05-14 01:03:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-14 01:13:25 +0200jason_davidson(~jason.dav@user/jason-davidson:57402) jason_davidson
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2025-05-14 01:29:38 +0200 <monochrom> Hrm, ld.gold is going away? That's a pity. If you reinstall GHC, the install script can pick up the fact that you don't have ld.gold, then initialize its settings file accordingly.
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2025-05-14 02:20:15 +0200zarek(~user@194.29.137.22) (ERC 5.6.0.30.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.1))
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2025-05-14 03:11:40 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-14 03:14:47 +0200 <sim590> monochrom: really? Well, this is the curl installation way, but will ghcup do that also? I guess not as int-e suggested otherwise.
2025-05-14 03:17:44 +0200 <sim590> int-e: my main goal though is to make it so that any developer that wants to work on my project doesn't have to ask himself the same thing we asked ourselves just because ld.gold missing is silently reported in some fat log that you are gonna have trouble find at first. So, that's why I say it belongs in the repo since I am at the very least sure that `ld` should exist on the platform as it always
2025-05-14 03:17:46 +0200 <sim590> had. I've been using Linux for almost 15 years and I've never heard of `ld.gold`, so I think that the safest is to force `ld` for all developers who touch the project.
2025-05-14 03:19:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-14 03:49:17 +0200 <monochrom> That road leads to docker images. Then you can full control of what runs on other people's computers.
2025-05-14 03:49:43 +0200 <monochrom> Hell, s/what runs on//
2025-05-14 03:50:45 +0200j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 03:50:56 +0200 <sim590> I don't need to go there just yet... :)
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2025-05-14 03:54:50 +0200 <monochrom> GHC is about the only compiler that generates code that spams the linker to the point that ld.gnu is noticeably too slow and we need the asymptotically faster ld.gold. So it is natural that outside the Haskell community no one needs to talk about it.
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2025-05-14 03:59:48 +0200 <monochrom> But that was a long time ago, maybe 10 years? Since then, maybe GHC spams the linker less, maybe ld.gnu switched to a faster algorithm, I didn't follow the subsequent evolution, but no one talks about it again today.
2025-05-14 04:01:32 +0200 <monochrom> Or maybe simply computers became exponentially faster so there is no longer a need for any non-brute-force algorithm!
2025-05-14 04:02:59 +0200 <monochrom> (P.S. I will be teaching Curry to my students, so they can write moar brute-force search with fewer lines of code because Curry has brute-force-search semantics!)
2025-05-14 04:05:05 +0200 <sim590> I guess that's a bit saner for the programmer soul in some respect. brute-force, but less many lines of code at least!
2025-05-14 04:05:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 04:07:59 +0200 <sim590> It seems like I'm able to pass -optc -fuse-ld=bfd for instance. Since it's one of the documented values in the GCC manpage. But, I can't seem to make it back to default since default would be the absence of any -fuse-ld flags, but GHC has it's own and I want to override it.
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2025-05-14 05:05:42 +0200vsv20(~vsv@c-73-128-187-52.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:08:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 05:15:19 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 05:15:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:15:41 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-14 05:17:58 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) tavare
2025-05-14 05:18:04 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 05:18:45 +0200Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: brb)
2025-05-14 05:18:59 +0200Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2025-05-14 05:20:00 +0200manwithluck(~manwithlu@2a09:bac1:5b80:20::38a:2d) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:20:27 +0200manwithluck(~manwithlu@2a09:bac5:5084:2387::38a:39) manwithluck
2025-05-14 05:21:23 +0200vsv(~vsv@c-73-128-187-52.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (WeeChat 4.1.1)
2025-05-14 05:21:36 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-05-14 05:22:32 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:24:05 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) aditya_an1l
2025-05-14 05:26:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 05:31:17 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:37:16 +0200 <sim590> Related to all of this, for ghcup users: https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-hs/issues/1032.
2025-05-14 05:38:04 +0200aforemny(~aforemny@i577B138D.versanet.de) aforemny
2025-05-14 05:39:01 +0200aforemny_(~aforemny@i59F4C598.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:41:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 05:46:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 05:47:12 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-05-14 05:57:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 06:02:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:18:09 +0200PHO`(~pho@akari.cielonegro.org) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:18:19 +0200PHO`(~pho@akari.cielonegro.org) PHO`
2025-05-14 06:18:37 +0200jle`(~jle`@2603:8001:3b00:11:20d1:30be:71d9:b2d8) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:18:58 +0200jle`(~jle`@2603:8001:3b00:11:515:67c3:ce1:e6bf) jle`
2025-05-14 06:19:49 +0200_xor(~xor@ip-50-5-4-25.dynamic.fuse.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:20:11 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-14 06:21:45 +0200_xor(~xor@ip-50-5-4-25.dynamic.fuse.net) _xor
2025-05-14 06:21:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 06:26:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 06:26:25 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-05-14 06:26:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:26:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-14 06:28:19 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 06:28:44 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-05-14 06:29:34 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 06:30:07 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-05-14 06:37:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 06:42:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:43:12 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 06:46:23 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net)
2025-05-14 06:52:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-05-14 06:53:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 06:58:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:07:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-14 07:13:31 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200)
2025-05-14 07:22:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 07:27:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:28:10 +0200michalz_(~michalz@185.246.207.193)
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2025-05-14 07:32:53 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-05-14 07:33:55 +0200haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-096-028-227-029.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:34:22 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.248.100) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:35:30 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-131-057.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-05-14 07:38:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 07:44:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:45:09 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-131-057.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 07:45:27 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-05-14 07:45:37 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 07:45:56 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f19e412b9b0af92c1b5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-05-14 07:48:20 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-14 07:54:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 08:01:36 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 08:01:52 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:08:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 08:09:10 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net)
2025-05-14 08:13:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:14:25 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:14:36 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-131-057.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
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2025-05-14 08:23:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 08:28:37 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 08:29:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:30:15 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-14 08:30:45 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:34:33 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:36:00 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net)
2025-05-14 08:36:05 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:38:00 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) aditya_an1l
2025-05-14 08:39:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 08:44:34 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:44:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 08:46:24 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) aditya_an1l
2025-05-14 08:55:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 08:58:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 08:59:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-14 09:00:00 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-05-14 09:00:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 09:00:41 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-05-14 09:07:02 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
2025-05-14 09:09:05 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-05-14 09:10:28 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) lortabac
2025-05-14 09:10:28 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 09:14:04 +0200 <hellwolf> bridge is down. I can post in both side :)
2025-05-14 09:15:40 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 09:17:34 +0200simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 09:17:58 +0200simplystuart(~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2025-05-14 09:18:31 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen
2025-05-14 09:21:47 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@88-148-149-111.bb.dnainternet.fi) fp
2025-05-14 09:29:40 +0200j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 09:35:43 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 09:37:02 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-05-14 09:37:59 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) Square
2025-05-14 09:38:35 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-05-14 09:41:14 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-131-057.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 09:41:34 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-05-14 09:42:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-05-14 09:53:55 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2025-05-14 09:56:42 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-14 09:59:03 +0200biberu(~biberu@user/biberu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 09:59:24 +0200biberu(~biberu@user/biberu) biberu
2025-05-14 10:12:30 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2025-05-14 10:23:20 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 10:24:46 +0200ft(~ft@p3e9bc106.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2025-05-14 10:25:14 +0200halloy5771(~halloy577@71-212-10-118.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: halloy5771)
2025-05-14 10:26:38 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-14 10:27:52 +0200esnos(~user@194.29.137.22)
2025-05-14 10:35:54 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-05-14 10:37:28 +0200ephilalethes(~noumenon@2001:fb1:49:87bc:aa7e:eaff:fede:ff94) noumenon
2025-05-14 10:38:09 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 10:40:10 +0200 <esnos> Hi, I know this is not haskell related question, but if I want to log messages from other channel for future reading when I'm not connected, should I install znc on server, or there is there other way to log messages when I'm not connected? I'm new to irc and it's much harder to grasp then matrix or discord
2025-05-14 10:40:13 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 10:41:43 +0200 <ski> you make sure you have a client running, on some machine that stays connected
2025-05-14 10:42:52 +0200 <ski> that could be a bouncer (like ZNC,&c.), or could be a terminal client, running under GNU Screen / TMux. there are also some things, like IRCCloud which provide a bouncer for you
2025-05-14 10:42:54 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2025-05-14 10:43:29 +0200 <TMA> esnos: there is nothing on the IRC server that keeps the messages for you. you need an always connected client. znc is just one option for an always-on client
2025-05-14 10:43:53 +0200 <TMA> esnos: ski said it faster
2025-05-14 10:54:05 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-05-14 10:54:25 +0200YoungFrog(~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-14 10:54:48 +0200 <esnos> So if I just use erc on server, than it will be the same as using znc?
2025-05-14 10:55:42 +0200 <ski> more or less. are you running emacs daemon ?
2025-05-14 10:56:00 +0200 <ski> (or starting emacs server)
2025-05-14 10:56:05 +0200 <esnos> I don't have server yet
2025-05-14 10:56:17 +0200 <ski> i mean like `M-x server-start'
2025-05-14 10:56:22 +0200 <esnos> On my pc I don't use emacs daemon
2025-05-14 10:57:02 +0200YoungFrog(~youngfrog@2a02:a03f:ca07:f900:a9b8:a3d6:d29f:10e6) youngfrog
2025-05-14 10:57:23 +0200 <ski> hm, i don't recall testing how that behaves, if you try to connect to it non-locally, forwarding X, and then the connection breaks
2025-05-14 10:59:12 +0200 <esnos> But why just opening emacs and openning erc on server won't work?
2025-05-14 11:00:07 +0200 <ski> (i do recall some time, opening a graphical frame via `emacsclient -c', under X, and X crashing, the whole Emacs session (which was running under GNU Screen, started before X) crashed, annoyingly. dunno whether that would be the case with `emacsclient -nw' (not running under GNU Screen or TMux) under X, and then X crashing; now how doing that remotely might affect it)
2025-05-14 11:00:56 +0200 <ski> because you might have to disconnect from the server (e.g. when turning off local machine), and later want to reconnect and check how your IRC session is doing
2025-05-14 11:01:55 +0200 <ski> so, you would like to run it, in a way that doesn't terminate, in case the connection breaks
2025-05-14 11:02:12 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a0d:e487:51f:6bb1:14ba:78f6:7f54:fc89)
2025-05-14 11:02:29 +0200 <esnos> Okay
2025-05-14 11:02:33 +0200comerijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-05-14 11:02:46 +0200 <ski> presumably you can do that with emacs daemon
2025-05-14 11:02:56 +0200skiuses GNU Screen, for this
2025-05-14 11:03:31 +0200 <esnos> I will than look into emacs daemon for logging and into znc, thank you ski for help
2025-05-14 11:04:11 +0200 <ski> (oh, and iirc, SystemD, at least some years ago, liked to kill processes that you had started in the background, to not be terminated on disconnect/hangup. so if your server has that, you might need to convince it to not kill your session, after you disconnect)
2025-05-14 11:05:12 +0200skihasn't used ERC .. better ask #emacs or #erc about specifics of that
2025-05-14 11:05:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 11:05:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 11:05:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-14 11:16:50 +0200j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 11:17:47 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 11:26:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> esnos: this is probably stating the obvious, but some channels, like this one, keep public logs -- see the /topic
2025-05-14 11:27:49 +0200 <esnos> tomsmeding: I know, but I want to set it up myself and some channels, like #emacs, doesn't keep public logs
2025-05-14 11:43:04 +0200 <__monty__> ski: It looks like you try to capitalize things correctly so you might be interested, https://brand.systemd.io/#:~:text=Spelling
2025-05-14 11:45:45 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 11:46:07 +0200poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 11:46:48 +0200j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 11:48:01 +0200poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) poscat
2025-05-14 11:51:12 +0200 <ski> mhm. i spell it "Emacs", unless i'm specifically talking about the executable. ditton with XTerm, &c.
2025-05-14 11:53:49 +0200robobub(uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-05-14 11:57:37 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a0d:e487:51f:6bb1:14ba:78f6:7f54:fc89) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 12:03:15 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 12:04:15 +0200mange(~user@user/mange) (Quit: Zzz...)
2025-05-14 12:07:36 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 12:08:18 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 12:14:39 +0200aditya_an1l(~aditya_an@user/aditya-an1l:63825) aditya_an1l
2025-05-14 12:19:33 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 12:20:50 +0200ephilalethes(~noumenon@2001:fb1:49:87bc:aa7e:eaff:fede:ff94) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-05-14 13:01:40 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a0d:e487:51f:6bb1:14ba:78f6:7f54:fc89)
2025-05-14 13:06:28 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:eb45:b718:2115:4152)
2025-05-14 13:12:14 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 13:12:30 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen
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2025-05-14 14:20:17 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: To what conclusion did you arrive on the topic of GDPR regarding log collection in this channel?
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2025-05-14 14:50:16 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-05-14 15:06:17 +0200 <yin> does gdpr apply? what personally identifiable information are we talking about?
2025-05-14 15:06:23 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-05-14 15:09:48 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-05-14 15:13:04 +0200 <yin> also i'm pretty sure that logging as a qol improvement over basic irc functionality qualifies as legitimate interest
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2025-05-14 15:20:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: if I recall correctly, the last proper conversation/thoughts on the topic were with you
2025-05-14 15:24:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> ircbrowse certainly processes data, and explicit consent is not acquired before it does so
2025-05-14 15:24:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> the question would be whether the data it collects concerns _personal data_, and whether ircbrowse is materially different from every random irc client that logs locally
2025-05-14 15:25:21 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 15:25:45 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-05-14 15:26:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> that is to say: a user on the irc network certainly consents to their messages being broadcasted to the other participants in the channel
2025-05-14 15:27:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> and we may even be able to say that the user consents to other clients storing said messages, because this is completely standard on irc
2025-05-14 15:32:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> I don't think there's a clear-cut definition of "legitimate interest" in the GDPR text
2025-05-14 15:33:09 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-22.open.aalto.fi) fp
2025-05-14 15:33:13 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> it's a category error isn it?
2025-05-14 15:33:34 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> the data and ops of irc vs what gdpr is meant to interdict
2025-05-14 15:34:21 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> also while libera is in sweden and subject to gdpr i doubt most of the users are
2025-05-14 15:35:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> is it? Some of its users are in Europe (I am), and in any case, I'd guess that the right to have one's data deleted would apply
2025-05-14 15:35:28 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> sites posting public logs of channels are subject to development of better ways of doing
2025-05-14 15:35:55 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> for some will be fine for most prolly needs behind some authentication
2025-05-14 15:36:04 +0200Guest11(~Guest11@213.163.236.14)
2025-05-14 15:36:09 +0200 <yin> logging for personal is inconsequent wrt gdpr
2025-05-14 15:36:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> can you cite some GDPR text that supports the existence of ircbrowse as-is?
2025-05-14 15:36:18 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> *needs to be behind
2025-05-14 15:36:19 +0200 <yin> *use
2025-05-14 15:36:37 +0200Guest11(~Guest11@213.163.236.14) (Client Quit)
2025-05-14 15:40:40 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> also sites wilh logs but no search function os i gotta google make me frown
2025-05-14 15:40:56 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> *so i gotta
2025-05-14 15:41:13 +0200 <hellwolf> A solution to a non-problem: a GDPR moderator; you can't speak until you msg with a "yes".
2025-05-14 15:41:38 +0200 <hellwolf> probably doesn't work for IRC protocol
2025-05-14 15:42:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: this could technically be implemented with a bot and channel rules that mean you can only speak if you have the +voice mode
2025-05-14 15:43:05 +0200 <hellwolf> interesting
2025-05-14 15:43:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> but doing so would be completely missing the point :p
2025-05-14 15:43:33 +0200 <hellwolf> I am good at missing points
2025-05-14 15:43:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> no, not you
2025-05-14 15:43:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> implementing said system would be, I don't know the appropriate English phrase for this
2025-05-14 15:44:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> but if that is how we can have public logging, then I'd rather not have public logging
2025-05-14 15:44:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: you didn't miss the point because you said "non-problem"
2025-05-14 15:44:57 +0200 <hellwolf> | Third-party data sharing under GDPR requires organizations to obtain explicit and informed consent from individuals before sharing their personal data with external parties.
2025-05-14 15:45:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> this is very much a non-problem until someone gets offended, and in that case I'd say "tell me and I'll remove your messages from the database"
2025-05-14 15:45:20 +0200JuanDaughertyColinRobinson
2025-05-14 15:45:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: read what I wrote ~25min ago
2025-05-14 15:46:14 +0200 <hellwolf> PII
2025-05-14 15:46:21 +0200 <hellwolf> whatever that means.
2025-05-14 15:46:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> the interesting questions are not regarding consent (ircbrowse does not acquire consent at all, users are just _informed_ via the topic and a welcome message when they join) but regarding whether this classifies as personal data
2025-05-14 15:46:31 +0200 <hellwolf> I don't suppose you have a PII filtering anyways
2025-05-14 15:46:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> what is PII filtering?
2025-05-14 15:47:20 +0200 <hellwolf> if the text contains any PII, you mask it with "****" in the software
2025-05-14 15:47:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's impossible
2025-05-14 15:47:44 +0200 <hellwolf> I know
2025-05-14 15:47:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> :p
2025-05-14 15:47:58 +0200 <hellwolf> but it's work of lawyers
2025-05-14 15:48:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> same as before: if that'd be required, I'd rather not have public logging
2025-05-14 15:48:27 +0200 <hellwolf> that'd a be a loss to the humanity
2025-05-14 15:48:35 +0200 <hellwolf> a sect of it, at least. :p
2025-05-14 15:48:45 +0200 <hellwolf> the mythical Haskellers
2025-05-14 15:48:45 +0200 <int-e> This is way into "it's not a problem until sombody makes it a problem" territory.
2025-05-14 15:48:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> yes
2025-05-14 15:49:10 +0200 <EvanR> is it impossible? IRC already replaces your password with **** if you type it
2025-05-14 15:49:14 +0200 <EvanR> try it
2025-05-14 15:49:16 +0200 <hellwolf> also, in principle, GDPR fine is proportional to the revenue
2025-05-14 15:49:33 +0200tomsmeding. o O ( https://bash-org-archive.com/?244321 )
2025-05-14 15:49:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> ircbrowse has negative revenue
2025-05-14 15:49:42 +0200 <int-e> There's PII there, no doubt (IP adresses, and I suspect the status of nicknames is unclear enough that if you ask two lawyers you'll get three opinions)
2025-05-14 15:49:59 +0200 <hellwolf> I am a male
2025-05-14 15:50:01 +0200 <hellwolf> that's PII
2025-05-14 15:50:04 +0200 <hellwolf> sort of
2025-05-14 15:50:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> and yet you willingly broadcasted it to 535 users
2025-05-14 15:50:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, 534
2025-05-14 15:50:17 +0200 <int-e> it's public, it's not just private use... if somebody wants to make this a problem, they can
2025-05-14 15:50:24 +0200 <hellwolf> because I will use that to sue you
2025-05-14 15:50:35 +0200 <hellwolf> you didn't protect my PII
2025-05-14 15:50:48 +0200 <int-e> hellwolf: in this particular context I don't think your informed consent is in doubt ;-)
2025-05-14 15:51:05 +0200 <hellwolf> I may be unhinged and change my mind in 20256
2025-05-14 15:51:08 +0200 <hellwolf> *2026
2025-05-14 15:51:20 +0200 <EvanR> or 20256 depending on what happens next
2025-05-14 15:51:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: then you invoke the right to have your data deleted
2025-05-14 15:51:43 +0200 <hellwolf> I have my rights to download it as a zip file to
2025-05-14 15:51:45 +0200 <hellwolf> *too
2025-05-14 15:51:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> invoking GDPR on the whole of irc logging via the legal system would be an "I hate humanity" move
2025-05-14 15:52:05 +0200 <hellwolf> it's not hard to reach that mental state nowadays
2025-05-14 15:52:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> there are other ways you can also enact your hate of humanity, if such exists
2025-05-14 15:52:39 +0200 <yin> if i announce my real name and address, that's PII and according to GDPR it would be subject to right to erasure. however, my request can be denied if you can argue that ircbrowse is legitimate interest, which it is
2025-05-14 15:52:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: if you send me an official letter requesting your personal data stored in ircbrowse, I will happily send it to you
2025-05-14 15:52:55 +0200 <hellwolf> with wax?
2025-05-14 15:52:59 +0200 <hellwolf> sealed with wax?
2025-05-14 15:53:05 +0200 <int-e> yin: nah there's no legitimate interest for keeping that record
2025-05-14 15:53:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: based on what GDPR text would it be legitimate interest?
2025-05-14 15:53:08 +0200 <hellwolf> do you accept animal fat based wax.
2025-05-14 15:53:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: hell no
2025-05-14 15:53:22 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: again, gdpr is not concerned with logging for personal use
2025-05-14 15:53:36 +0200 <int-e> anyway
2025-05-14 15:53:49 +0200 <hellwolf> anyways
2025-05-14 15:53:58 +0200ColinRobinson(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-14 15:53:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> this is not just personal use, it's public :p
2025-05-14 15:54:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> but arguing about this is rather futile
2025-05-14 15:54:10 +0200 <int-e> I expect that if it becomes more than an occasional deletion request tomsmeding will just kill the service
2025-05-14 15:54:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> as int-e has been trying to say repeateedly
2025-05-14 15:54:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> yes
2025-05-14 15:54:42 +0200 <EvanR> what instigated this line of inquiry into GDPR
2025-05-14 15:54:52 +0200 <hellwolf> boredom
2025-05-14 15:55:00 +0200 <EvanR> did someone try to take down ircbrowse
2025-05-14 15:55:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2025/05/14?id=1550780#trid1550780
2025-05-14 15:55:28 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: that's a question for the lawyers when and if someone raises a problem with ircbrowse. until then, it's not a concern
2025-05-14 15:55:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> that we're agreeing on, for sure
2025-05-14 15:55:46 +0200 <EvanR> ok so a hypothetical wrapped in a for instance
2025-05-14 15:56:54 +0200Lears(~Leary@user/Leary/x-0910699) Leary
2025-05-14 15:56:55 +0200Leary(~Leary@user/Leary/x-0910699) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 15:57:16 +0200LearsLeary
2025-05-14 15:57:16 +0200 <hellwolf> data Anyways = forall a. Hypothetical => MkAnyways a
2025-05-14 15:57:23 +0200 <hellwolf> data Anyways = forall a. Hypothetical a => MkAnyways a
2025-05-14 15:57:37 +0200 <EvanR> ewwww datatype contexts
2025-05-14 15:57:43 +0200 <hellwolf> it's not
2025-05-14 15:57:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> no, this is not a data type context
2025-05-14 15:57:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's a context on the constructor
2025-05-14 15:58:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/datatype_contexts.html#extension-Da…
2025-05-14 15:58:18 +0200 <hellwolf> data Anyways where MkAnyways :: forall a. Hypothetical a => Anyways
2025-05-14 15:58:27 +0200 <hellwolf> if you are a hip Haskellers like GDPRSyntax
2025-05-14 15:58:31 +0200 <hellwolf> Sorry, GADTSyntax
2025-05-14 15:58:33 +0200 <EvanR> oh I didn't even know you could do that
2025-05-14 15:58:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> lol
2025-05-14 15:58:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: don't
2025-05-14 15:58:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> > This is widely considered a misfeature
2025-05-14 15:58:50 +0200 <EvanR> ya
2025-05-14 15:59:50 +0200 <int-e> yin: a clear-cut legitimate interest would be "we need to keep a record of your payment info and purchase record for 5 years to comply with anti money laundering laws"
2025-05-14 16:00:07 +0200 <int-e> "this is inconvenient" isn't enough.
2025-05-14 16:00:11 +0200 <yin> instance GDPR IrcBrowse where legitimateInterest = undefined
2025-05-14 16:00:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> Warning: no definition given for methods: personalData, controller
2025-05-14 16:01:43 +0200 <hellwolf> alright, gonna learn how to write a similar thing to MkLenses
2025-05-14 16:01:46 +0200 <yin> thirParty :: a
2025-05-14 16:01:46 +0200 <hellwolf> makeLenses
2025-05-14 16:02:01 +0200hellwolfduck
2025-05-14 16:02:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> don't drown in TH
2025-05-14 16:03:00 +0200 <int-e> hellwolf: or rabbit? https://www.brainonfire.net/blog/2022/04/11/what-is-parser-mismatch/attach/Kaninchen_und_Ente.svg
2025-05-14 16:03:42 +0200 <yin> does an IP adress by itself (with no other PII associated with it) constitute PII?
2025-05-14 16:04:01 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:04:12 +0200 <hellwolf> int-e: classic.
2025-05-14 16:04:28 +0200tomsmedingwill leave the gdpr discussion for what it is and wait for a takedown request, if it ever comes (I hope not)
2025-05-14 16:04:46 +0200 <int-e> yin: Ask a lawyer. But IP adresses can be used to link online activities.
2025-05-14 16:05:27 +0200 <yin> not with certainty
2025-05-14 16:05:44 +0200 <int-e> so?
2025-05-14 16:05:55 +0200 <int-e> ...
2025-05-14 16:06:04 +0200 <int-e> sorry, I should stop too, this isn't going anywhere and IANAL
2025-05-14 16:06:06 +0200 <yin> fair point
2025-05-14 16:06:07 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:13:37 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) mceresa
2025-05-14 16:20:01 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:20:42 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-22.open.aalto.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:21:56 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) mceresa
2025-05-14 16:30:29 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-22.open.aalto.fi) fp
2025-05-14 16:31:17 +0200 <hellwolf> actually TH is a pleasant to work with with QuasiQuotes
2025-05-14 16:31:25 +0200 <hellwolf> am I crazy?
2025-05-14 16:32:09 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2025-05-14 16:38:19 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f19e412b9b0af92c1b5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:38:42 +0200 <sprout> certified
2025-05-14 16:42:39 +0200 <EvanR> well QQ is cool and all but
2025-05-14 16:46:08 +0200 <EvanR> compilation times
2025-05-14 16:50:58 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-22.open.aalto.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 16:51:44 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:150:10::1d80) fp
2025-05-14 16:54:08 +0200 <yin> is there any way we can parameterize data constructors on pattern matches?
2025-05-14 16:55:55 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2025-05-14 16:56:15 +0200notzmv(~daniel@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 17:06:23 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2025-05-14 17:07:49 +0200Ekho(~Ekho@user/ekho) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 17:10:13 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:150:10::1d80) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 17:12:16 +0200 <EvanR> say what
2025-05-14 17:14:49 +0200 <hellwolf> I didn't understand.
2025-05-14 17:18:02 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-141-22.open.aalto.fi) fp
2025-05-14 17:21:47 +0200Ekho(~Ekho@user/ekho) Ekho
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2025-05-14 19:00:41 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh
2025-05-14 19:02:35 +0200YoungFrog(~youngfrog@2a02:a03f:ca07:f900:a9b8:a3d6:d29f:10e6) (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-3-96481995 - https://znc.in)
2025-05-14 19:02:55 +0200YoungFrog(~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) youngfrog
2025-05-14 19:03:47 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f1938d92047264b5ff5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-05-14 19:06:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-14 19:11:51 +0200pabs3(~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3
2025-05-14 19:19:37 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2025-05-14 19:22:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-05-14 19:24:33 +0200 <Square> What is a good approach building a multi library project with nix? It seems cabal 3's "multiple libraries per cabal file" doesn't play well with nix. Which leads me to believe it's a better bet to keep separate cabal file per library?
2025-05-14 19:25:42 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-136-001.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-05-14 19:25:48 +0200 <monochrom> I am not a nix lawyer, but I'm under the impression that nix is scriptable so it is just a matter of moar scripting to make it work with/for anything.
2025-05-14 19:26:55 +0200finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 19:27:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 19:28:44 +0200 <Square> You just convinced my to build my own build tool =D
2025-05-14 19:28:50 +0200 <Square> s/my/me/
2025-05-14 19:30:38 +0200 <monochrom> At least you aren't making your own language. Oh wait.
2025-05-14 19:31:37 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-136-001.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 19:31:52 +0200Katarushisu(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-05-14 19:34:23 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.248.100)
2025-05-14 19:37:53 +0200 <EvanR> a datatype is just a [possibly dumb] language
2025-05-14 19:38:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 19:38:44 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.23.248.100) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 19:41:18 +0200 <monochrom> a language is just a data type. >:)
2025-05-14 19:42:00 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
2025-05-14 19:42:27 +0200 <yushyin> Square: maybe #haskell:nixos.org (matrix) has an answer
2025-05-14 19:43:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 19:43:17 +0200 <Square> yushyin, Good idea. I'll try that
2025-05-14 19:44:15 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-136-001.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2025-05-14 19:48:48 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-136-001.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 19:49:43 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17f864.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-05-14 19:51:38 +0200 <Leary> Square: https://github.com/input-output-hk/haskell.nix
2025-05-14 19:52:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 19:53:25 +0200 <yin> in an arbitrary arithmetic system, something i call multiplication doesn't have to have an inherent relationship with something i call addition?
2025-05-14 19:54:31 +0200 <EvanR> in an arbitrary ring it does
2025-05-14 19:55:18 +0200 <EvanR> what's an arbitrary arithmetic system
2025-05-14 19:55:57 +0200 <yin> sure. some arithmetic system i decide to create just for fun
2025-05-14 19:56:14 +0200 <monochrom> I don't know what "arbitrary arithmetic system" means. But for a ring like EvanR said, * distributes over +, also +'s identity becomes *'s zero.
2025-05-14 19:56:59 +0200 <EvanR> oh I answered my own question
2025-05-14 19:57:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-14 19:57:12 +0200 <EvanR> Num class <- arbitrary arithmetic system
2025-05-14 19:57:52 +0200 <monochrom> I was hoping that there were a reason the wording was not simply "Num instance".
2025-05-14 19:58:13 +0200 <yin> a ring is a formal structure that may not exist in my fantasy arithmetic system
2025-05-14 19:58:52 +0200 <EvanR> so your arithmetic system isn't just for arithmetic but for defining additional structure, like Peano Arithmetic
2025-05-14 19:59:02 +0200 <monochrom> May I tell you a true story about homebrew vocabulary that the inventor thought intuitive but in reality no one else knows what it means?
2025-05-14 19:59:14 +0200 <yin> monochrom: please :)
2025-05-14 19:59:33 +0200 <yin> EvanR: can be
2025-05-14 20:00:08 +0200 <monochrom> My friend worked as tech support for small companies. One day he was upgrading software versions for a small company. Everyone there asked him "does it still support 1048?". Guess what 1048 means.
2025-05-14 20:00:11 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@syn-172-251-233-141.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:00:38 +0200Angelz(Angelz@angelz.oddprotocol.org) (Changing host)
2025-05-14 20:00:38 +0200Angelz(Angelz@user/angelz) angelz
2025-05-14 20:01:53 +0200 <yin> we need a clue
2025-05-14 20:02:31 +0200 <yin> which kind of software?
2025-05-14 20:02:32 +0200 <monochrom> My friend was given no clue. Everyone there said "1048" as if it were standard. That's my point.
2025-05-14 20:02:32 +0200 <EvanR> if multiplication doesn't distribute over addition, and multiplication has no 1, then I will perhaps want my money back
2025-05-14 20:02:49 +0200ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-14 20:02:54 +0200 <monochrom> But "it" = the new software version
2025-05-14 20:02:57 +0200 <yin> EvanR: yeah maybe there's no point in calling it multiplication
2025-05-14 20:03:09 +0200 <EvanR> anything other behavior I have heard might be acceptable in a group
2025-05-14 20:03:12 +0200 <EvanR> or monoid
2025-05-14 20:03:22 +0200 <EvanR> and somebody could abuse it and call the operation multiplication
2025-05-14 20:04:02 +0200 <Angelz> hi lambdabot
2025-05-14 20:04:26 +0200 <yin> monochrom: 1048 is traffic control in police radio 10-codes
2025-05-14 20:04:36 +0200 <monochrom> People even say "monad multiplication" for join, so I think everyone is already abusing the word "multiplication".
2025-05-14 20:04:46 +0200 <Angelz> :)
2025-05-14 20:04:49 +0200 <monochrom> 1048 = 1024x768 monitors
2025-05-14 20:05:12 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:05:13 +0200ljdarj1ljdarj
2025-05-14 20:05:46 +0200 <EvanR> join (pure action) = action
2025-05-14 20:05:55 +0200 <EvanR> join (action pure) = action
2025-05-14 20:05:57 +0200 <EvanR> checks out
2025-05-14 20:06:11 +0200 <yin> monochrom: 1024 * 768 = 1048 checks out
2025-05-14 20:06:40 +0200 <yin> for some definition of multiplication :)
2025-05-14 20:06:57 +0200 <EvanR> 1024x768 - 2x76 = 1048
2025-05-14 20:07:25 +0200 <xerox> > 1024 + (768 / 32)
2025-05-14 20:07:26 +0200 <lambdabot> 1048.0
2025-05-14 20:07:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 20:07:38 +0200 <yin> are we playing countdown
2025-05-14 20:07:47 +0200 <monochrom> numerology
2025-05-14 20:08:04 +0200 <xerox> totally
2025-05-14 20:08:11 +0200 <EvanR> my question is true for sets of chars
2025-05-14 20:08:15 +0200 <EvanR> my equation
2025-05-14 20:09:21 +0200 <EvanR> > "question" \\ "equation"
2025-05-14 20:09:23 +0200 <lambdabot> "s"
2025-05-14 20:09:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> monochrom: what on earth is that logic
2025-05-14 20:09:38 +0200 <monochrom> charactology
2025-05-14 20:10:49 +0200 <monochrom> homebrew abbreviation plus presuming that everyone thinks up the same thing.
2025-05-14 20:11:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: re your arithmetic system: depends on what you mean by "arithmetic system" :p
2025-05-14 20:11:12 +0200 <EvanR> that's what I wanted to know
2025-05-14 20:11:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> if an "arithmetic system" is just some structure with two binary operations called (+) and (*), then, well, do as you please
2025-05-14 20:11:47 +0200 <EvanR> if 1 * 1 = 2 in your system then calling it multiplication might get your a spot on joe rogan
2025-05-14 20:12:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: if you want any sort of compatibility with standard algebra, you'll have to be more precise about exactly what compatibility you want
2025-05-14 20:12:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:13:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> in particular, in the context of Haskell, as stated, Num instances are generally supposed to be rings, which brings along a variety of expected properties
2025-05-14 20:13:24 +0200 <Square> ? 1024 ∨ (768»5) = 1048. Obvious
2025-05-14 20:14:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> > 1024 + 2^4 + 2^3 -- 1024/768 is a 4/3 ratio
2025-05-14 20:14:48 +0200 <lambdabot> 1048
2025-05-14 20:14:52 +0200 <monochrom> I agree most with EvanR's take. An abbreviation simply needs to randomly delete some characters here and there. It is a string operation not an arithmetic operation.
2025-05-14 20:15:25 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:17:54 +0200 <EvanR> so Num is morally a ring but it's not the law. Or else Double would not be a Num
2025-05-14 20:18:44 +0200 <EvanR> > "1024x768" \\ "2x76"
2025-05-14 20:18:45 +0200 <lambdabot> "1048"
2025-05-14 20:18:56 +0200 <EvanR> stable
2025-05-14 20:19:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> I like yhow that works both with \\ and with -
2025-05-14 20:19:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> *how
2025-05-14 20:19:28 +0200 <EvanR> > 1024*768 - 2*76
2025-05-14 20:19:29 +0200 <lambdabot> 786280
2025-05-14 20:19:32 +0200 <EvanR> shoot
2025-05-14 20:19:41 +0200 <EvanR> I would have to start questioning reality
2025-05-14 20:19:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> you deceived me
2025-05-14 20:19:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> 20:06 <EvanR> 1024x768 - 2x76 = 1048
2025-05-14 20:19:57 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2025-05-14 20:20:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> you think I actually mentally calculate that
2025-05-14 20:20:22 +0200 <monochrom> There was "<EvanR> my equestion is true for sets of chars" so there was that.
2025-05-14 20:20:38 +0200tomsmedingjust can't read
2025-05-14 20:21:01 +0200 <EvanR> can't read can't 'rithmetic. write only
2025-05-14 20:23:08 +0200 <monochrom> I don't like to scaremonger about Double not being a ring. It is close to being a ring to the largest extent given the constraint of bounded precision.
2025-05-14 20:23:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 20:23:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> plus some practicalities like NaN
2025-05-14 20:23:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> impracticalities?
2025-05-14 20:23:55 +0200 <EvanR> all you have to do is prove, using that assumption, that your results are (as) close to being correct exact
2025-05-14 20:24:10 +0200 <EvanR> which I'm not good at
2025-05-14 20:24:31 +0200 <EvanR> and you need a lot of different proofs since in general it's false
2025-05-14 20:25:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> arriving at interval arithmetic again
2025-05-14 20:25:09 +0200 <EvanR> i know!
2025-05-14 20:25:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> I know you know :)
2025-05-14 20:26:53 +0200 <EvanR> the Unum guy's old talks has a lot of funny "test" expressions involving reals
2025-05-14 20:27:21 +0200 <EvanR> where he puts floats and unums in to see which fails miserably
2025-05-14 20:27:55 +0200 <EvanR> these expressions ignore numerical analysis best practices
2025-05-14 20:28:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:28:42 +0200 <EvanR> which would be nice
2025-05-14 20:30:14 +0200 <EvanR> John Gustafson
2025-05-14 20:30:53 +0200 <yin> so according to internet culture, Double is a Parker Ring
2025-05-14 20:37:41 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-05-14 20:39:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 20:42:11 +0200jespada(~jespada@r167-61-130-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-05-14 20:42:52 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-05-14 20:43:14 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:43:31 +0200Paladin22(~Paladin@80.237.87.36)
2025-05-14 20:43:58 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 20:44:24 +0200sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f05910054b2a9a5e51db9d5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-05-14 20:44:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:46:12 +0200Paladin22(~Paladin@80.237.87.36) (Client Quit)
2025-05-14 20:49:35 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-05-14 20:50:11 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-05-14 20:53:28 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-14 20:54:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 20:57:57 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com)
2025-05-14 20:59:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:00:04 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-05-14 21:00:43 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-05-14 21:05:56 +0200 <yin> shouldn't i expect ghc to disambiguate unwrap here https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747249530586 ?
2025-05-14 21:06:46 +0200biberu(~biberu@user/biberu) biberu
2025-05-14 21:06:57 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) siracusa
2025-05-14 21:10:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 21:10:55 +0200 <yin> we can deduce by `(>) :: n -> n -> n` that `(Add n > Add m) :: Add n`
2025-05-14 21:15:04 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:16:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:20:00 +0200 <int-e> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/disambiguate_record_fields.html may do the trick
2025-05-14 21:21:32 +0200 <monochrom> It is an extension to auto-determine which unwrap you mean from context.
2025-05-14 21:21:41 +0200 <int-e> hmm, but that's only for record *updates* right
2025-05-14 21:21:48 +0200 <int-e> (I've never tried to use it)
2025-05-14 21:22:00 +0200 <monochrom> Haskell 2010 simply says "I give up".
2025-05-14 21:22:11 +0200 <Leary> IIRC GHC will only disambiguate syntactically, not by type.
2025-05-14 21:22:26 +0200 <yin> according to the docs, DisambiguateRecordFields is implied by DuplicateRecordFields
2025-05-14 21:22:29 +0200 <int-e> generally, disambiguating based on types looks like a pretty good way to make type checking blow up exponentially
2025-05-14 21:22:57 +0200 <int-e> yin: right so it's just for matching and updates
2025-05-14 21:23:03 +0200 <int-e> not for using the accessor as a funciton
2025-05-14 21:23:06 +0200int-eshrugs
2025-05-14 21:23:20 +0200 <int-e> as I said, I never tried to use this extension
2025-05-14 21:23:47 +0200 <yin> not even with `unwrap ((Add n > Add m) :: Add Nat)` this works
2025-05-14 21:24:04 +0200 <yin> oh well
2025-05-14 21:24:21 +0200 <yin> class Unwrappable where ...
2025-05-14 21:24:30 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-05-14 21:25:46 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) Unicorn_Princess
2025-05-14 21:26:12 +0200 <yin> nope
2025-05-14 21:26:18 +0200yinscratched head
2025-05-14 21:26:22 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-05-14 21:26:29 +0200 <monochrom> Type-directed name resolution: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-November/086220.html
2025-05-14 21:26:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 21:27:30 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-05-14 21:27:39 +0200 <yin> eh
2025-05-14 21:27:43 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) mceresa
2025-05-14 21:29:28 +0200jespada(~jespada@r167-61-130-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) jespada
2025-05-14 21:29:30 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:30:49 +0200 <monochrom> Even Haskell 2010 is bad enough:
2025-05-14 21:30:52 +0200 <monochrom> > fmap fmap fmap (+ 1) [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3]
2025-05-14 21:30:53 +0200 <lambdabot> [Just 2,Just 3,Just 4]
2025-05-14 21:31:01 +0200 <yin> can i `class Unwrappable w n where ...` or should i use a fundep `class Unwrappable w n | w -> n where ...` ?
2025-05-14 21:31:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:31:39 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-05-14 21:32:38 +0200 <monochrom> You know what, may I suggest just using lens?
2025-05-14 21:33:11 +0200 <int-e> > (.) fmap fmap (+ 1) [Just 1, Just 2, Just 3]
2025-05-14 21:33:13 +0200 <lambdabot> [Just 2,Just 3,Just 4]
2025-05-14 21:35:28 +0200 <yin> monochrom: i avoid lens at all cost. just by personal preference
2025-05-14 21:35:58 +0200 <monochrom> But you are on the road to reinvent lens.
2025-05-14 21:36:12 +0200 <monochrom> err, reinventing. I hate English.
2025-05-14 21:37:01 +0200 <yin> that's great, if i can learn something along the way
2025-05-14 21:37:07 +0200 <yin> i'm just experimenting with haskell
2025-05-14 21:37:52 +0200Katarushisu(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) Katarushisu
2025-05-14 21:38:26 +0200 <yin> right now i'm learning about functional dependencies, something i never bothered to explore deeply because i never came across a situation that asked for it
2025-05-14 21:38:44 +0200 <yin> so i'm having fun i guess
2025-05-14 21:40:16 +0200 <EvanR> without fun you're only doing ctional programming
2025-05-14 21:42:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 21:43:13 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-14 21:43:32 +0200haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-096-028-227-029.res.spectrum.com) hackager
2025-05-14 21:43:32 +0200ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2025-05-14 21:44:08 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-05-14 21:45:07 +0200 <JuanDaugherty> right that's why i call it "fun ding" the opposite of the homonym in the capitalism
2025-05-14 21:47:02 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 21:47:27 +0200 <yin> is this ok? https://paste.jrvieira.com/1747252027073
2025-05-14 21:49:33 +0200 <monochrom> Yes.
2025-05-14 21:58:00 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-05-14 21:58:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 21:58:21 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-05-14 22:02:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:07:45 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:11:52 +0200 <EvanR> well thank the LLM for this: Matches Haskell's general philosophy: "crash less, compose more".
2025-05-14 22:12:15 +0200 <EvanR> is this some kind of spin on erlang crash early crash often
2025-05-14 22:13:03 +0200 <monochrom> abstract early, abstract often
2025-05-14 22:13:27 +0200 <monochrom> use Kan extensions for everything >:)
2025-05-14 22:13:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 22:18:16 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:19:07 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:20:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:21:06 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-05-14 22:21:26 +0200 <[exa]> is there an Ixed instance for vectors somewhere in packages?
2025-05-14 22:21:33 +0200 <[exa]> (or a reason why I can't find it?)
2025-05-14 22:22:46 +0200 <[exa]> (oh btw I mean the Ixed from microlens)
2025-05-14 22:25:51 +0200 <monochrom> microlens-platform depends on both microlens and vector. Perhaps it is that.
2025-05-14 22:26:24 +0200 <monochrom> I feel sorry for your computer. This rebuilds everything again.
2025-05-14 22:27:03 +0200 <[exa]> hm true, I didn't click it because I thought it would just be all other packages together
2025-05-14 22:27:51 +0200 <[exa]> ok well, license is copypastable, let's copy with a notice
2025-05-14 22:28:31 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-05-14 22:28:51 +0200 <monochrom> Wait, you're going to fork it? :)
2025-05-14 22:29:02 +0200 <[exa]> I'll make a note there :D
2025-05-14 22:29:11 +0200 <[exa]> that eventually I should depend on microlens-platform :D
2025-05-14 22:29:13 +0200 <monochrom> err nevermind, you just copy-paste the 5 lines of code you want.
2025-05-14 22:29:34 +0200 <monochrom> Now I feel sorry for your lawyer. >:)
2025-05-14 22:30:41 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (Quit: KVIrc 5.2.6 Quasar http://www.kvirc.net/)
2025-05-14 22:30:59 +0200 <[exa]> our lawyer is obsessed with the fact that we could opensource something without patenting it first, which is apparently a terrible loss
2025-05-14 22:31:38 +0200 <[exa]> the copypaste is not the reason to be sorry :D
2025-05-14 22:31:45 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:31:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-05-14 22:32:07 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Can something thats patented even be opensource
2025-05-14 22:32:07 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> That doesnt seem to make sense
2025-05-14 22:32:37 +0200 <[exa]> tbh they think that's OK
2025-05-14 22:33:03 +0200 <[exa]> regardless, I don't think it makes any sense at all :D
2025-05-14 22:33:17 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Like, the point of open source and free software are the four fundamental freedoms and a patent violates them
2025-05-14 22:33:22 +0200 <monochrom> Now I feel bad about the lawyer of your lawyer. >:)
2025-05-14 22:33:29 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> But ig its a different legal system?
2025-05-14 22:34:30 +0200 <[exa]> I didn't imply that the thoughts of the lawyer are following any legal system :D
2025-05-14 22:34:42 +0200 <[exa]> </lawyer_complaints>
2025-05-14 22:35:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Ik im just trying to wrap my head against their thought process :P
2025-05-14 22:35:42 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> And im failing
2025-05-14 22:36:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-05-14 22:37:37 +0200 <[exa]> yes, like, don't. it makes no sense. :D
2025-05-14 22:38:02 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2025-05-14 22:38:34 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) Ranhir
2025-05-14 22:40:27 +0200 <[exa]> ah
2025-05-14 22:41:28 +0200 <[exa]> the Ixed in microlens returns a traversal (because they have no prisms etc), so for vectors it gives "no instance for Monoid Float" etc
2025-05-14 22:41:41 +0200 <[exa]> ok good that's probably explaining why no one uses the instance.
2025-05-14 22:46:24 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)