2025/06/02

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2025-06-02 00:26:25 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.162.18)
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2025-06-02 00:32:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Also, I got desperate and tried to go try Codecanvas.ai for MVP
2025-06-02 00:32:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's not there yet; capability is quite limited right now
2025-06-02 00:33:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 00:33:13 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> (wiki website target, or at least the support staff told me that)
2025-06-02 00:33:23 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2025-06-02 01:54:00 +0200developer_(~developer@90.167.50.215)
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2025-06-02 01:56:05 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-06-02 02:42:54 +0200 <EvanR> any clue why this is happening or if I'm just tripping. readFile on a named pipe acts normally the first time you open the fifo, "blocking" until a writer appears and starts sending data, then the lazy list terminates when the writer closes the fifo
2025-06-02 02:43:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 02:43:03 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 02:43:13 +0200 <EvanR> after consuming the entire list, another call to readFile on the fifo immediately returns []
2025-06-02 02:43:23 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 02:44:20 +0200 <geekosaur> that's standard fifo behavior, yes
2025-06-02 02:44:33 +0200 <EvanR> so you can never reopen a fifo?
2025-06-02 02:44:38 +0200 <geekosaur> right
2025-06-02 02:45:13 +0200 <geekosaur> you need to hold it open `O_RDWR` and have some protocol for "end of current connection". or use an `AF_LOCAL` socket, which behaves the way you want FIFOs to work
2025-06-02 02:46:10 +0200 <geekosaur> actually this isn't 100% POSIXX behavior, `readFile` and the somewhat weird Haskell Report-specified semantics of lazy I/O are contributing
2025-06-02 02:46:41 +0200 <geekosaur> the two together make FIFOs kinda unusable in Haskell
2025-06-02 02:46:43 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-06-02 02:47:05 +0200 <geekosaur> but that's only slightly worse than the normal POSIX behavior
2025-06-02 02:47:21 +0200 <geekosaur> really, just don't use FIFOs
2025-06-02 02:49:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2025-06-02 02:50:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 02:50:44 +0200 <EvanR> I don't understand the condition which causes a 2nd opening of the fifo to instantly return EOF
2025-06-02 02:50:58 +0200 <EvanR> e.g. I can run the program again or a second program to open it and it blocks
2025-06-02 02:51:07 +0200 <EvanR> for reading
2025-06-02 02:51:20 +0200 <EvanR> is it like "one process, one opening"
2025-06-02 02:51:56 +0200 <EvanR> come back with another process if you want more fifo
2025-06-02 02:52:11 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2025-06-02 02:52:15 +0200 <EvanR> interesting
2025-06-02 02:52:54 +0200 <geekosaur> POSIX FIFO semantics come from UNIX System III/V and are rather strange
2025-06-02 02:54:02 +0200 <geekosaur> I only know of one program which made useful use of them: on System V R3, `cron` opened a private FIFO for read/write and listened for lines written by `crontab`, which told it to reread the specified crontab file
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2025-06-02 02:58:38 +0200 <geekosaur> btw I think what causes that instant-EOF behavior is that the RTS opens it non-blocking, then `readFile` sets up an `unsafeInterleaveIO` which fails on the first read, which is passed back to you as EOF
2025-06-02 02:59:39 +0200 <geekosaur> lazy I/O doesn't hande exceptional conditions at all well
2025-06-02 03:02:39 +0200 <EvanR> I tried using openFile and hGetLine
2025-06-02 03:02:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:02:52 +0200 <geekosaur> so anyway FIFOs are broken, lazy I/O is broken, if you use them together you get to keep all the shattered pieces
2025-06-02 03:03:05 +0200 <EvanR> same result, first it blocks waiting for a writer, second time it suceeds immediately but hGetLine throws because EOF
2025-06-02 03:03:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:03:33 +0200 <EvanR> is it open blocking the first time and non-blocking the second time
2025-06-02 03:04:25 +0200 <geekosaur> it should always be non-blocking, I think? the RTS doesn't use blocking fds because that would block the whole process instead of just the running thread
2025-06-02 03:04:29 +0200 <EvanR> if this can't be adjusted I'm not sure how that crontab trick even worked
2025-06-02 03:04:41 +0200 <EvanR> opening the first time blocks if there's no writer yet
2025-06-02 03:05:02 +0200 <geekosaur> because only writers close it. cron kept it open O_RDWR|O_NONBLOCK continuously
2025-06-02 03:05:16 +0200 <EvanR> oh
2025-06-02 03:05:35 +0200 <EvanR> i'll try opening it RDWR
2025-06-02 03:05:40 +0200 <geekosaur> so it never saw EOF, it just relied on every "record" being a single line
2025-06-02 03:06:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 03:06:24 +0200 <EvanR> that made it behave
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2025-06-02 03:08:30 +0200 <EvanR> it causes reader to not see EOF from writers closing
2025-06-02 03:08:43 +0200 <EvanR> which is good enough for government work
2025-06-02 03:09:10 +0200 <EvanR> but also closing and reopening a second time gives blocking behavior again
2025-06-02 03:09:17 +0200 <EvanR> weird
2025-06-02 03:11:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2025-06-02 03:16:23 +0200 <EvanR> if the RTS puts all file I/O through the select mechanism they wouldn't need to be non-blocking right
2025-06-02 03:16:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:16:49 +0200 <EvanR> since then it knows if a read or write would block
2025-06-02 03:17:11 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:18:28 +0200 <monochrom> It is still simpler to keep using the non-blocking mode.
2025-06-02 03:20:32 +0200 <EvanR> does it make any difference if it's all selected?
2025-06-02 03:21:09 +0200 <monochrom> Suppose two threads race to read from the same FD. Suppose select detects that data has arrived. Should the RTS wake up just one of them? Or both of them? Either way is easily broken under blocking mode because you don't know how much each thread actually reads.
2025-06-02 03:21:11 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, because it affects semantics of the FIFO, not just blocking-ness
2025-06-02 03:21:22 +0200 <geekosaur> also that
2025-06-02 03:21:47 +0200 <monochrom> I don't mean it is unsolvable. There is a way you can go out of your way to fool-proof that.
2025-06-02 03:22:01 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 03:22:03 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-06-02 03:22:19 +0200 <EvanR> the RTS doesn't just make 1 thread at a time accessing the FD
2025-06-02 03:22:22 +0200 <monochrom> Alternatively, non-blocking mode relieves you from working so hard, while still be completely safe and correct.
2025-06-02 03:22:22 +0200 <EvanR> ?
2025-06-02 03:23:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-06-02 03:25:25 +0200 <EvanR> k I messed up my original test by also pipe the fifo to stdin
2025-06-02 03:25:32 +0200 <EvanR> now the behavior with lazy I/O is consistent
2025-06-02 03:25:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:25:59 +0200 <EvanR> it *always* immediately returns an empty list
2025-06-02 03:26:45 +0200 <monochrom> OK, even better example without racing. 2 bytes have arrived. But the thread called read(fd, buf, 10). Blocking mode hangs that read() waiting for 8 more bytes (or EOF or error).
2025-06-02 03:26:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 03:27:16 +0200 <monochrom> GHC uses green threads so all of RTS hangs.
2025-06-02 03:27:35 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 03:28:58 +0200 <int-e> You should get a partial read; it's supposed to block only when no data is available at all.
2025-06-02 03:29:09 +0200_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 03:29:23 +0200 <EvanR> yes it returns less than requested in blocking mode
2025-06-02 03:29:27 +0200 <monochrom> At this point I hope you don't react like my students. They are lazy and switch to read(fd, buf, 1) and be egregiously inefficient. GHC RTS cannot afford to do that, people would riot.
2025-06-02 03:29:49 +0200 <monochrom> Ah OK my bad.
2025-06-02 03:30:02 +0200 <EvanR> that's why you have to repeatedly write until everything goes through since it might return less than what you wanted to write
2025-06-02 03:30:49 +0200 <int-e> fread() does that loop for you, so if you took your semantics from there you'd be right.
2025-06-02 03:31:56 +0200 <int-e> (you still get partial reads but only on actual errors or EOF)
2025-06-02 03:32:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:32:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:32:51 +0200 <int-e> Anyway. This shouldn't distract from the point that read *can* block if the fd is not in non-blocking mode, and allowing blind reads simplifies some code..
2025-06-02 03:35:07 +0200 <int-e> ...and break some foreign libraries that you might want to pass fds to as a bonus. ;-)
2025-06-02 03:36:21 +0200mange(~mange@user/mange) mange
2025-06-02 03:37:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 03:38:01 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-06-02 03:38:15 +0200_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-}
2025-06-02 03:39:49 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:40:11 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:45:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-06-02 03:45:11 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2025-06-02 03:45:42 +0200haritz(~hrtz@152.37.64.162)
2025-06-02 03:45:43 +0200haritz(~hrtz@152.37.64.162) (Changing host)
2025-06-02 03:45:43 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2025-06-02 03:47:42 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:48:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:48:18 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2025-06-02 03:55:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 03:55:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 03:56:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 03:57:21 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 04:00:26 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 04:00:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2025-06-02 04:08:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 04:08:23 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 04:11:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-06-02 04:15:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 04:16:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 04:20:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 04:22:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-06-02 04:24:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 04:28:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-06-02 04:35:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 04:35:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 04:36:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 04:40:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2025-06-02 04:51:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 04:54:33 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 04:54:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 04:57:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 04:58:22 +0200td_(~td@i53870925.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 04:59:32 +0200td_(~td@i53870908.versanet.de) td_
2025-06-02 05:01:40 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:02:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:07:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 05:09:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:09:23 +0200 <EvanR> this is fun, if I try to open a named pipe in haskell in WriteMode, to act as the writer, openFile: does not exist (No such device or address)
2025-06-02 05:09:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:09:33 +0200 <EvanR> ReadWriteMode again "fixes" it
2025-06-02 05:10:21 +0200 <EvanR> meanwhile in C it's the opposite, opening the "write only" fifo with fopen and "rw" causes it to fail to write, while "w" makes it behave
2025-06-02 05:12:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 05:14:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:14:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:18:21 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 05:20:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:21:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 05:21:15 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:22:01 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 05:23:32 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:23:57 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:27:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 05:30:29 +0200 <mauke> EvanR: "rw" is not a thing in fopen. did you mean "r+"?
2025-06-02 05:30:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:31:16 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:32:41 +0200 <mauke> ENXIO is returned when you open a fifo in non-blocking mode for writing while there are no readers
2025-06-02 05:33:32 +0200 <mauke> (in blocking mode, open() will block until there is a reader)
2025-06-02 05:36:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:36:55 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:39:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 05:44:35 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-06-02 05:44:58 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-06-02 05:51:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 05:54:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 05:55:23 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-06-02 05:59:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 05:59:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:00:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:06:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:06:58 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-06-02 06:07:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:10:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 06:13:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:13:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:15:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:16:38 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://www.stackage.org/lts-23.24/hoogle?q=foo is this broken for anyone else?
2025-06-02 06:16:55 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> and hoogle seems to be pointing to haskell platform only, not stackage
2025-06-02 06:18:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 06:19:10 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:22:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 06:22:23 +0200 <trickard> I get 502 bad gateway
2025-06-02 06:23:29 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:25:16 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:25:35 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 06:25:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:25:50 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203)
2025-06-02 06:25:59 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 06:27:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:29:23 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) tavare
2025-06-02 06:29:32 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:32:40 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 06:33:15 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:33:40 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:35:42 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 06:37:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 06:41:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:41:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:42:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:47:21 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:47:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:51:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:51:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 06:51:27 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> Stackage has its own separate Google
2025-06-02 06:51:37 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> * hoogle
2025-06-02 06:53:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 06:57:48 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2025-06-02 06:58:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:58:30 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 06:59:09 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2025-06-02 06:59:09 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 06:59:19 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 06:59:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:00:28 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) Unicorn_Princess
2025-06-02 07:02:08 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 07:05:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:05:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:11:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:12:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:17:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:17:55 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:22:44 +0200tinjamin4(~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:23:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 07:25:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 07:25:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:27:49 +0200internatetional(~nate@2404:c0:5c60::339d:583b) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:27:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:28:49 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 07:29:02 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-06-02 07:30:18 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:30:49 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:35:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:36:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:38:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 07:39:12 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:41:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 07:42:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:44:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:45:18 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-06-02 07:45:46 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:46:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:47:42 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b)
2025-06-02 07:51:39 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 07:52:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 07:53:12 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 07:54:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 07:58:22 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-06-02 07:59:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:00:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:01:19 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:02:35 +0200califax_(~califax@user/califx) califx
2025-06-02 08:03:31 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:03:50 +0200califax_califax
2025-06-02 08:07:42 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:08:03 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:08:10 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:10:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 08:10:57 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in)
2025-06-02 08:11:28 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-06-02 08:13:33 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b)
2025-06-02 08:14:20 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:14:46 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:15:23 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen
2025-06-02 08:15:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:18:55 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2025-06-02 08:19:10 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:20:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:20:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:22:26 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 08:22:33 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:24:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 08:25:35 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:26:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:26:50 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:29:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:30:05 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 08:31:10 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:31:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:31:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:33:35 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-06-02 08:34:43 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 08:34:54 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-06-02 08:37:03 +0200werneta(~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta
2025-06-02 08:38:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:38:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:39:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 08:40:00 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:44:07 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:44:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:45:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:45:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-06-02 08:45:42 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-02 08:49:41 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-140-9.open.aalto.fi) fp
2025-06-02 08:51:16 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:51:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:51:51 +0200smalltalkman(uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) smalltalkman
2025-06-02 08:53:38 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 08:55:09 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-06-02 08:55:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 08:58:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 08:58:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 08:59:09 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar
2025-06-02 09:00:01 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2025-06-02 09:00:04 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
2025-06-02 09:00:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:00:42 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-06-02 09:02:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:02:42 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:04:43 +0200werneta(~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:09:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:10:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:11:05 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:11:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-02 09:11:54 +0200rvalue-(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-06-02 09:13:10 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:14:12 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:14:19 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f46a4d9c5906f327091.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-06-02 09:14:26 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-06-02 09:16:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:16:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:16:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:17:08 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-06-02 09:18:46 +0200rvalue-rvalue
2025-06-02 09:19:09 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-06-02 09:22:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:22:35 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:23:14 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-06-02 09:24:05 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-06-02 09:25:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:26:20 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:30:55 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-140-9.open.aalto.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 09:32:14 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@wireless-86-50-140-9.open.aalto.fi) fp
2025-06-02 09:34:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:34:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:34:26 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) HarveyPwca
2025-06-02 09:35:24 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:39:44 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: irc.renjuan.org (juan@acm.org))
2025-06-02 09:40:42 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:40:54 +0200developer_(~developer@90.167.50.215) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-06-02 09:41:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:41:19 +0200aman(~aman@user/aman) aman
2025-06-02 09:41:46 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:42:21 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-06-02 09:46:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:46:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:50:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:50:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:54:35 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 09:54:57 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 09:59:18 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-06-02 10:00:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:00:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:03:18 +0200aman(~aman@user/aman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 10:04:18 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 10:05:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:05:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:07:14 +0200tinjamin4(~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space)
2025-06-02 10:09:16 +0200aman(~aman@user/aman) aman
2025-06-02 10:10:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-06-02 10:10:35 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:10:58 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:11:23 +0200tinjamin4(~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 10:16:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:16:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:17:12 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:abb3:7000:51f4:aea7:1982:b1a4) ubert
2025-06-02 10:23:16 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:23:39 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:24:02 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) Lycurgus
2025-06-02 10:26:47 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:27:04 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar
2025-06-02 10:27:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:30:03 +0200euandreh(~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) euandreh
2025-06-02 10:34:38 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:35:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:36:47 +0200dhil(~dhil@5.151.29.138) dhil
2025-06-02 10:39:56 +0200pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1
2025-06-02 10:40:21 +0200pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 10:40:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 10:40:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:45:53 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: irc.renjuan.org (juan@acm.org))
2025-06-02 10:46:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:46:04 +0200pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1
2025-06-02 10:46:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:53:08 +0200euandreh(~Thunderbi@189.6.105.228) (Quit: euandreh)
2025-06-02 10:53:43 +0200euandreh1(~Thunderbi@189.31.61.8) euandreh
2025-06-02 10:54:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 10:55:16 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 10:56:01 +0200euandreh1euandreh
2025-06-02 10:56:51 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-02 10:59:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:00:12 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:00:15 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 11:00:32 +0200puke(~puke@user/puke) puke
2025-06-02 11:06:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:07:11 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 11:09:34 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-06-02 11:10:12 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-06-02 11:15:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 11:15:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 11:20:33 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:25:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 11:28:59 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) jmnyarega
2025-06-02 11:29:02 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2025-06-02 11:30:49 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) jmnyarega
2025-06-02 11:30:51 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2025-06-02 11:31:06 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b)
2025-06-02 11:31:27 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) jmnyarega
2025-06-02 11:31:29 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2025-06-02 11:32:12 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) jmnyarega
2025-06-02 11:32:14 +0200jmnyarega(~jmnyarega@user/jmnyarega) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2025-06-02 11:33:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:33:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 11:38:19 +0200aman(~aman@user/aman) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-06-02 11:38:48 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) lortabac
2025-06-02 11:39:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 11:40:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2025-06-02 14:17:52 +0200 <hellwolf> | Consider the Pascal statement y := z + 1. Using the convention that y’ denotes the new value of y, we can rewrite this statement as the mathematical formula y’ = z + 1, Many readers will think that the Pascal statement and the formula are equally simple.
2025-06-02 14:17:52 +0200 <hellwolf> They are wrong. The formula is much simpler than the Pascal statement. Equality is a simple concept that five-year-old children understand. Assignment (:=) is a complicated concept that university students find difficult.
2025-06-02 14:18:11 +0200 <hellwolf> ^-- I found this statement from a CS paper amusing.
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2025-06-02 14:41:30 +0200 <ski> well, one could draw a distinction between local mutation, and mutation via (possibly aliased) indirections/references/pointers (transitively) to data structures. the former can be modelled via a group of mutually tail-recursive functions (indicating labels for branching & joining, and for loops) (basically SSA, Single Static-Assignment, form)
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2025-06-02 14:42:46 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.162.18) (Quit: ;-)
2025-06-02 14:43:01 +0200 <ski> latter, and i suppose especially mutating references/pointers, would be harder to try to model in such a nicer way
2025-06-02 14:43:57 +0200 <ski> (in den. sem., you carry around a store mapping abstract locations to values, where those values could include other locations)
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2025-06-02 14:50:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: it's definitely amusing, but not so sure about its validity :)
2025-06-02 14:51:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> (counterpoint: the formula has 3 quantities involved (old y, new y, z), whereas the assignment only has 2 (new y, z))
2025-06-02 14:51:17 +0200 <hellwolf> it's a well cited paper (3000+ citations)
2025-06-02 14:51:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> well-cited papers can be wrong
2025-06-02 14:51:32 +0200 <hellwolf> (not saying that is a proof for it's validity)
2025-06-02 14:51:50 +0200 <hellwolf> it's amusing that some myth, or mistakes, can spread so far.
2025-06-02 14:51:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> and also, the paper as a whole can be valid even if this particular claim is dubious :)
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2025-06-02 14:52:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> (another counterpoint: in the equation model, you have to keep the equations in mind in order to make sense of new ones. In the assignment model, you have to keep only the variables' values in mind)
2025-06-02 14:53:07 +0200 <__monty__> It immediately becomes less dubious with the example `y := y + 1`.
2025-06-02 14:53:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> then they should have taken that example!
2025-06-02 14:53:45 +0200 <tomsmeding> also, I posit that's primarily because of the notation using '='
2025-06-02 14:53:49 +0200 <__monty__> Did they not? We don't know what `z` is, maybe it's `z := y + 1`!
2025-06-02 14:53:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> a 5-year old, or at least a 5-year-old of 10 years ago, has certainly used an eraser before
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2025-06-02 17:16:43 +0200 <hellwolf> ¬ ∀ ¬ <-- what is the closest you can get from Haskell to this?
2025-06-02 17:16:46 +0200distopico(~cerdolibr@xvm-111-150.dc2.ghst.net) distopico
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2025-06-02 17:49:51 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: irc.renjuan.org (juan@acm.org))
2025-06-02 17:50:34 +0200jespada(~jespada@r167-61-127-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) jespada
2025-06-02 17:51:33 +0200 <ski> (forall a. f a -> o) -> o -- ?
2025-06-02 17:51:58 +0200 <ski> (forall a. f a -> m Void) -> m Void -- ?
2025-06-02 17:53:00 +0200 <ski> p (forall a. p (f a) Void) Void -- ?
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2025-06-02 18:26:23 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) HarveyPwca
2025-06-02 18:27:37 +0200comerijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-02 18:27:43 +0200 <dolio> tomsmeding: Is your objection that equality is not really understood by 5 year olds?
2025-06-02 18:27:51 +0200 <dolio> Not that assignment is simple?
2025-06-02 18:31:29 +0200miguelnegrao(~miguelneg@2001:818:dc71:d100:97a9:f15a:6ac:fc9e)
2025-06-02 18:31:30 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) (Quit: ciao)
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2025-06-02 18:32:02 +0200 <hellwolf> I have more outrageous statement from the same paper: "advocates of so-called functional programming languages often claim that they just use ordinary mathematical functions, but try explaining to a twelve-year-old how evaluating a mathematical function can display a character on her computer screen"
2025-06-02 18:32:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 18:32:29 +0200 <hellwolf> -- The temporal logic of actions, Leslie Lamport.
2025-06-02 18:32:44 +0200 <hellwolf> 1994
2025-06-02 18:32:54 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) jrm
2025-06-02 18:34:24 +0200 <hellwolf> ski: somehow that (not forall not) equivalent to ∃. So, by extension, Haskell's idiom of existential type is a way to encode that? I don't know, just guessing.
2025-06-02 18:34:50 +0200 <dolio> It's not equivalent except in classical logic.
2025-06-02 18:36:23 +0200 <__monty__> TLA+ is interesting. I don't think the mathematical function is really the hard part of that though.
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2025-06-02 18:37:07 +0200 <miguelnegrao> Hi all, I'm completely stuck with something from Data.Type.Equality .  How can I define use p = gcastWith p Refl ? If I use gcastWith p Refl it works fine to for instance to prove (a + 1 ) :~: (b+1) from (a :~: b) but I can't seem to define it with a function. use p = gcastWith p Refl does not work without a type signature, and I can't figure one
2025-06-02 18:37:07 +0200 <miguelnegrao> out.
2025-06-02 18:38:13 +0200olivial(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 18:38:28 +0200olivial(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) benjaminl
2025-06-02 18:38:47 +0200 <miguelnegrao> chatgpt O3 can't figure this one out either :-)
2025-06-02 18:40:30 +0200 <miguelnegrao> use :: forall f a b. (a :~: b) -> f a :~: f b doesn't quite do it, then GHC doesn't know what the "f" should be
2025-06-02 18:41:50 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) (Quit: ciao)
2025-06-02 18:41:59 +0200fp(~Thunderbi@hof1.kyla.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-02 18:42:17 +0200 <dolio> You want to define `p = gcastWith p Refl`? That seems like it will just loop.
2025-06-02 18:43:05 +0200 <miguelnegrao> no: use p = gcastWith p Refl
2025-06-02 18:43:15 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) jrm
2025-06-02 18:43:20 +0200 <dolio> Oh.
2025-06-02 18:43:25 +0200 <miguelnegrao> define a function named "use". I belive it is also called "cong" ?
2025-06-02 18:43:36 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 18:43:48 +0200 <dolio> I see.
2025-06-02 18:43:59 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 18:44:28 +0200 <miguelnegrao> The reason for the name is like "GHC please use this theorem and in this bigger expression"
2025-06-02 18:44:33 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar
2025-06-02 18:44:49 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) (Client Quit)
2025-06-02 18:45:46 +0200 <miguelnegrao> If I type the expression by inplace "gcastWith p Refl" for some p that I have around, then it will work, GHC goes and works its magic.
2025-06-02 18:46:11 +0200jrm(~jrm@user/jrm) jrm
2025-06-02 18:46:12 +0200 <Leary> That's what `gcastWith` itself is already doing.
2025-06-02 18:46:14 +0200 <dolio> Well, cong normally has a type that would be like `a :~: b -> f a :~: f b`. However, if you're expecting to use it with `_ + 1`, it seems unlikely that you will be able to get `f` to be that.
2025-06-02 18:46:24 +0200 <Leary> You're just specialising `r` in the signature of `gcastWith` to `c :~: d`?
2025-06-02 18:46:55 +0200 <miguelnegrao> Example:  theoremAddZero :: forall n . SNat n -> n + Zero :~: n
2025-06-02 18:47:06 +0200 <miguelnegrao> theoremAddZero (SSucc n) = gcastWith (theoremAddZero n) Refl
2025-06-02 18:47:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> miguelnegrao: do you have the typing plugins?
2025-06-02 18:47:29 +0200 <miguelnegrao> No, its all vanilla GHC
2025-06-02 18:47:41 +0200 <miguelnegrao> using just singletons package
2025-06-02 18:47:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> then that theoremAddZero will not work
2025-06-02 18:47:49 +0200 <miguelnegrao> works fine
2025-06-02 18:48:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh, yes, my mistake
2025-06-02 18:48:13 +0200 <dolio> The reason that the expression works is that `r` gets instantiated to `a + 1 :~: b + 1` or something, but factoring out that `(+1)` as an `f` is dubious.
2025-06-02 18:48:13 +0200 <miguelnegrao> $(singletons [d|
2025-06-02 18:48:13 +0200 <miguelnegrao>     data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat
2025-06-02 18:48:14 +0200 <miguelnegrao>     |])
2025-06-02 18:49:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> not only dubious: it's impossible, since `f ~ (+1)` would mean that (+) here is a partially-applied type family, which GHC does not allow
2025-06-02 18:49:20 +0200 <miguelnegrao> btw, the other case is the theorem is trivial theoremAddZero SZero = Refl
2025-06-02 18:49:30 +0200 <dolio> Right.
2025-06-02 18:50:00 +0200 <miguelnegrao> basically I wanted to write these proofs like:
2025-06-02 18:50:00 +0200 <miguelnegrao> theoremAddZero (SSucc n) = use (theoremAddZero n)
2025-06-02 18:50:04 +0200 <miguelnegrao> it would be pretier
2025-06-02 18:50:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, perhaps it would, but I'm fairly sure it's impossible to give `use` a type that makes that work
2025-06-02 18:51:02 +0200 <miguelnegrao> ok, that is good to know. I just felt a bit stupid writting it over and over :-)
2025-06-02 18:51:14 +0200 <miguelnegrao> glad to know the problem is not on my side
2025-06-02 18:51:27 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 18:51:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> there are other languages that do allow partial application of "type families"; in particular, Agda and Idris
2025-06-02 18:51:50 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 18:52:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> but that's a whole different territory :)
2025-06-02 18:52:42 +0200 <miguelnegrao> Another thing I have a feeling I cannot do is compile a list of proofs and tell GHC to use all those proofs to prove something else.
2025-06-02 18:53:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> data Dict c where Dict :: c => Dict c
2025-06-02 18:53:06 +0200 <miguelnegrao> I have to write it like: gcastWith p1 $ gcastWith p2 $ gcastWith p3 $ Refl
2025-06-02 18:53:12 +0200omegatron(~some@user/omegatron) (Quit: Power is a curious thing. It can be contained, hidden, locked away, and yet it always breaks free.)
2025-06-02 18:53:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> then use `Dict @(a :~: b, c :~: d, e :~: f)`
2025-06-02 18:53:27 +0200 <miguelnegrao> I did rename gcastWith to "have" so it looks a bit better
2025-06-02 18:53:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> to bundle up a bunch of proofs
2025-06-02 18:53:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> but it's not generic like passing a list of proofs, no
2025-06-02 18:53:49 +0200 <miguelnegrao> interesting
2025-06-02 18:54:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> but that may help only if you have the same set of "lemmas" in a bunch of places
2025-06-02 18:54:44 +0200 <miguelnegrao> Thanks tomsmeding for that tip, I will investigate
2025-06-02 18:55:20 +0200 <miguelnegrao> No, usually I just build a group of substeps in the proof which I then use in a more complicated expression part of the same proof
2025-06-02 18:55:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> is the goal of this just to play around with singletons in haskell?
2025-06-02 18:55:53 +0200internatetional(~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:5e5:e8fb:73b6:1daa) internatetional
2025-06-02 18:55:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> because if the goal is to formalise some mathematics, haskell is _not_ the suitable language :p
2025-06-02 18:56:15 +0200 <miguelnegrao> Essentially yes, it is just for fun
2025-06-02 18:56:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> then have at it :)
2025-06-02 18:56:29 +0200 <miguelnegrao> But I have been porting mathlib, the Nats part
2025-06-02 18:56:52 +0200 <miguelnegrao> stuff like theoremAddMulDivLeft :: forall x y z . SNat x -> SNat y -> SNat z -> N0 < y -> (x + (y * z)) / y :~: (x / y) + z
2025-06-02 18:57:01 +0200 <dolio> Translating mathlib to Haskell is going to be very painful, I expect.
2025-06-02 18:57:07 +0200 <miguelnegrao> YES !
2025-06-02 18:57:22 +0200 <miguelnegrao> comutativity and associativity is very painful
2025-06-02 18:57:47 +0200 <miguelnegrao> but it puts me in a zen state I guess
2025-06-02 18:57:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 18:58:17 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 18:59:31 +0200 <EvanR> associativity was a mistake, lisp was right, just use gratuitous amount of parentheses
2025-06-02 18:59:53 +0200 <miguelnegrao> In proofs you have to move every single parenthesis manually...
2025-06-02 19:00:14 +0200 <miguelnegrao> (a + b) + c is not equial to a + (b + c) unless you use a proof of that...
2025-06-02 19:00:49 +0200 <Leary> miguelnegrao: Suggestion: declare `pattern QED = Refl; (==>) = gcastWith; infixr 1 ==>` and write `p1 ==> p2 ==> p3 ==> QED`.
2025-06-02 19:01:07 +0200internatetional(~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:5e5:e8fb:73b6:1daa) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 19:01:19 +0200 <miguelnegrao> oh, I like that !
2025-06-02 19:01:25 +0200internatetional(~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:5e5:e8fb:73b6:1daa) internatetional
2025-06-02 19:02:18 +0200internatetional(~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:5e5:e8fb:73b6:1daa) (Client Quit)
2025-06-02 19:03:29 +0200miguelnegrao(~miguelneg@2001:818:dc71:d100:97a9:f15a:6ac:fc9e) (Quit: Client closed)
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2025-06-02 19:04:43 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-06-02 19:06:19 +0200 <ski> hellwolf : i didn't bring up existentials. however, in logic, you often define `Not a = a -> Void' (`Void' being the false proposition (the nullary disjunction), having no proof, but having an elimination rule, with zero branches, in Haskell terms effectively `void :: Void -> a; void v = case v of {}'). however, if you don't use the elimination, you can replace `Void' with an arbitrary proposition `o'
2025-06-02 19:06:25 +0200 <ski> (giving you "minimal logic", rather than "intuitionistic logic"), so instead of `Not (...)' you'd have `... -> o'
2025-06-02 19:08:07 +0200orcus-(~orcus@user/brprice) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2025-06-02 19:08:08 +0200dispater-(~dispater@user/brprice) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2025-06-02 19:08:31 +0200 <__monty__> And that's because o *could* be Void?
2025-06-02 19:09:51 +0200dispater-(~dispater@user/brprice) brprice
2025-06-02 19:10:22 +0200orcus-(~orcus@user/brprice) brprice
2025-06-02 19:10:55 +0200 <EvanR> because parametricity stops you from ever producing an o, Void or not
2025-06-02 19:11:20 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 19:11:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:11:53 +0200 <EvanR> unless one of the hypotheses lets you, which in fact could let you produce a Void, hypothetically
2025-06-02 19:13:26 +0200 <ski> the second two versions were replacing the function arrow `(->)' with a kleisli arrow `Kleisli m' (where `Kleisli m a b = a -> m b', and `m' is a monad) (although, categorically speaking, one should distinguish between a morphism/arrow `f : A >---> B' in a category (between two objects `A' and `B'), and an "internalization" of that as an object itself, commonly written as `B^A' (or perhaps `A -> B' or `A =>
2025-06-02 19:13:32 +0200 <ski> B') (e.g. currying being expressed as (for each object `A') collection of arrows `Gamma * A >---> B' being ("naturally", in objects `Gamma' and `B') equivalent to `Gamma >---> (A -> B)'))
2025-06-02 19:13:42 +0200 <EvanR> (a -> o) -> a -> o
2025-06-02 19:14:23 +0200 <EvanR> not (not a and a)
2025-06-02 19:16:09 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 19:16:34 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:19:32 +0200 <ski> anyway, i used `M Void' for some particular monad `M', to express that a particular computation didn't terminate normally (.. more specifically, i was doing something like (cooperative) concurrency, and i wanted to express that a spawned thread eventually called `killThread :: M Void' at the end (or went on infinitely, or was partial) .. originally i used `()' instead of `Void', which resulted in a
2025-06-02 19:19:38 +0200 <ski> sprinkling of `undefined's throughout the code, leaving me unsure whether i'd gotten it correct. swapping to the more conceptually correct `Void' allowed me to gain more confidence of the correctness, removing all the `undefined's)
2025-06-02 19:20:09 +0200 <ski> @djinn-add type NotNot a = Not (Not a)
2025-06-02 19:20:22 +0200 <ski> @djinn NotNot (Either a (Not a))
2025-06-02 19:20:22 +0200 <lambdabot> f a = void (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b))))
2025-06-02 19:22:05 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 19:22:09 +0200 <ski> btw, Djinn is a bit overeager here, that `void' can be removed (replaced by `id') (it's using the instance `void @Void :: Void -> Void' of `void :: forall o. Void -> o')
2025-06-02 19:22:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:24:44 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:7d34:d696:3458:218b)
2025-06-02 19:24:48 +0200 <ski> (and because this doesn't need to use `void', it can be proved in minimal logic, with an arbitrary proposition `o' replacing `Void', so that `NotNot (Either a (Not a))' becomes `(Either a (a -> o) -> o) -> o')
2025-06-02 19:24:54 +0200 <ski> @type let f a = a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b))) in f
2025-06-02 19:24:55 +0200 <lambdabot> (Either a (a -> t) -> t) -> t
2025-06-02 19:26:03 +0200 <ski> for comparision
2025-06-02 19:26:06 +0200 <ski> @type let f a = absurd (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b)))) in f
2025-06-02 19:26:07 +0200 <lambdabot> (Either a1 (a1 -> Void) -> Void) -> a2
2025-06-02 19:27:42 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 19:28:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:28:35 +0200 <ski> (note that, for some silly reason, `void :: Functor f => f a -> f ()' is a library operation, name coming from FFI, so the corresponding operation we want to use from `Data.Void' was named `absurd' ..)
2025-06-02 19:28:45 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-06-02 19:29:00 +0200raym(~ray@user/raym) raym
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2025-06-02 19:29:31 +0200 <EvanR> so in your example of an action which doesn't return normally would you use o instead of Void
2025-06-02 19:29:33 +0200 <ski> __monty__ : yea, that's one way to think about it
2025-06-02 19:30:58 +0200 <ski> well, that could be used for `killThread :: M o', but for the spawn case, you'd need `spawnThread :: (forall o. M o) -> M ()' to replace `spawnThread :: M Void -> M ()'
2025-06-02 19:31:30 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-02 19:33:23 +0200 <ski> (iirc, i was also pondering an operation `forkThread :: M Void -> M Void -> M Void' as well (forget whether i also provided that) .. which would then become `forkThread :: (forall o. M o) -> (forall p. M p) -> M q')
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2025-06-02 19:36:06 +0200 <ski> anyway, the rank-2 would perhaps feel a bit overkill. but i suppose one could replace `Void' in positive/covariant/output/producer position with `o', but not do any replacement in negative/contravariant/input/consumer position, so `forkThread :: M Void -> M Void -> M o'
2025-06-02 19:37:48 +0200 <ski> @type (<*)
2025-06-02 19:37:49 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f a
2025-06-02 19:38:13 +0200 <ski> note how that uses `b' instead of `()', this is a similar thing
2025-06-02 19:38:35 +0200 <monochrom> @type forever
2025-06-02 19:38:36 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b
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2025-06-02 19:40:30 +0200 <EvanR> forkThread :: M a -> M b -> M o ?
2025-06-02 19:42:42 +0200 <ski> replacing `()' in input position with an arbitrary result (conceptually throwing away the result, replacing it with the empty tuple .. `()' (hand-waving) would correspond to terminal object, there's a unique arrow `const () : A >---> 1' for any object `A') .. while, i suppose, in output position, you'd want to use `exists r. ..r..' (note that for input position, `(exists r. ..r..) -> ...' is equivalent to
2025-06-02 19:42:49 +0200 <ski> `forall r. (..r.. -> ...)', as in `forever :: Applicative f => (exists a. f a) -> f b')
2025-06-02 19:42:53 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2025-06-02 19:43:18 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2025-06-02 19:43:20 +0200shaeto(~Shaeto@94.25.234.79)
2025-06-02 19:43:49 +0200 <ski> so, yea, we "morally" have `forever :: Applicative f => f () -> f Void' (turn a (hopefully) terminating chunk of a computation into a non-terminating loop repeating that chunk)
2025-06-02 19:44:53 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2025-06-02 19:44:58 +0200 <EvanR> with laziness wouldn't f a -> f b possibly make sense even if the action "doesn't terminate"
2025-06-02 19:45:09 +0200 <ski> EvanR : that would correspond to `forkThread :: M () -> M () -> M Void', which isn't what i wanted to express. i wanted both branches to end in `killThread'
2025-06-02 19:45:29 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-02 19:45:47 +0200 <EvanR> it doesn't because a or b could be Void
2025-06-02 19:45:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:45:58 +0200 <EvanR> it doesn't guarantee a result
2025-06-02 19:46:12 +0200 <EvanR> like () "does"
2025-06-02 19:47:05 +0200 <ski> basically, i had a `runM :: M Void -> IO ()', providing a "full program" (calling `killThread' at the end). and then you can issue `forkThread's while you keep on that "program spine". but in (non-tail) sub-computations, you could only introduce more threads by using `spawnThread' instead, which attaches a "full program" to a (normally terminating" "chunk"
2025-06-02 19:47:20 +0200 <monochrom> f a -> f b still makes sense if the action non-terminates, or even if you set a=Void.
2025-06-02 19:47:53 +0200 <ski> yep, but it doesn't require the `f a' to call `killThread' (or go into an infinite loop, or be partial)
2025-06-02 19:48:20 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) target_i
2025-06-02 19:48:51 +0200 <EvanR> ok Void guarantees no result
2025-06-02 19:49:04 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah forever is different from forkThread.
2025-06-02 19:49:12 +0200 <EvanR> no results allowed
2025-06-02 19:49:40 +0200 <EvanR> a type variable only guarantees you can't use the result if it exists
2025-06-02 19:49:43 +0200 <monochrom> It is just not everyday that one wants a function that says "the input must be a non-terminating program!".
2025-06-02 19:50:15 +0200 <EvanR> or is it
2025-06-02 19:50:33 +0200 <EvanR> in game dev community "never let the game crash ever"
2025-06-02 19:50:39 +0200 <ski> i maintained a scheduler queue of tasks
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2025-06-02 19:51:30 +0200 <monochrom> For games and OSes, you use forever. Only the outermost layer needs to be run forever.
2025-06-02 19:51:47 +0200 <ski> `killThread' merely removed the currently executing task, switching to the next available one (or ending `runM', if empty queue now)
2025-06-02 19:53:01 +0200 <EvanR> I guess most games, not on nintendo switch, come with a "quit to windows" (or DOS or whatever) menu option
2025-06-02 19:53:18 +0200 <EvanR> which would cause the program to terminate
2025-06-02 19:53:35 +0200 <EvanR> so input must be non terminating program is useful for nintendo switch games
2025-06-02 19:53:45 +0200 <ski> and the continuation of `M Void' accepting a `Void' meant that it's effectively dead code, unreachable (ignoring bottoms, yes), so we can throw it away, without getting any surprises in the surface of the API
2025-06-02 19:55:29 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, you just want to say "there is no continuation".
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2025-06-02 19:56:43 +0200 <ski> right
2025-06-02 19:56:57 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-02 19:58:34 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2025-06-02 20:00:40 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-06-02 20:02:19 +0200 <ski> dialogue I/O used `type Dialogue = [Response] -> [Request]' as it's "final answer" type of "full I/O programs" (seeming to correspond to `Void', or perhaps more `M Void' ?). instead of ending your `main :: Dialogue' with `end :: Dialogue; end _ = []', you'd pass a continuation (or several, in some cases), with `getChar :: (Char -> Dialogue) -> Dialogue' (iow `getChar :: Cont Dialogue Char') and `putChar ::
2025-06-02 20:02:25 +0200 <ski> Char -> Dialogue -> Dialogue' (iow `putChar :: Char -> Cont Dialogue ()') as representative examples)
2025-06-02 20:03:46 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2025-06-02 20:04:22 +0200 <ski> so typically instead of hard-wiring `end' at the end of every branch of your `main :: Dialogue', you could do `main = myMain end' where `myMain :: Dialogue -> Dialogue' (iow `myMain :: Cont Dialogue ()'), making more (normally terminating) operations easily composable
2025-06-02 20:07:24 +0200 <ski> ("Modern Compiler Implementation in {ML,Java,C}" by Andrew W. Appel in 1998 at <https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/modern/> also happens to use an `end : Answer' operation for a purely functional mini-language, including I/O operations, just treating `Answer' as abstract, as opposed to `Dialogue' above)
2025-06-02 20:08:30 +0200 <ski> (oh, and it's a strict language, so the "backwards" request-response model wouldn't work like in early Haskell)
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2025-06-02 20:27:47 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
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2025-06-02 20:32:30 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
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2025-06-02 20:33:03 +0200Everything(~Everythin@77.120.244.38) Everything
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2025-06-02 20:45:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-06-02 21:00:00 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
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2025-06-02 21:00:39 +0200caconym7(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
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2025-06-02 21:00:54 +0200ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
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2025-06-02 21:05:09 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
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2025-06-02 21:07:42 +0200Yumemi(~Yumemi@chamoin.net) Yumemi
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2025-06-02 21:34:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-06-02 21:40:29 +0200shaeto(~Shaeto@94.25.234.79) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1)
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2025-06-02 21:49:55 +0200sshine(~simon@dao.mechanicus.xyz) sshine
2025-06-02 21:50:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-06-02 21:51:50 +0200 <sshine> there was a property test framework featured in Haskell Weekly recently. I can't find it, but it did something to improve on hedgehog. can anyone guess what package I'm looking for? it's not quickcheck-lockstep.
2025-06-02 21:53:01 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) sawilagar