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2025-04-04 01:00:31 +0200rstromlund(~user@user/rstromlund) rstromlund
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2025-04-04 01:12:38 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
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2025-04-04 01:15:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 01:17:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://medium.com/@trueskawka/haskell-divmod-and-quotrem-450b859b656a
2025-04-04 01:17:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> is haskell auto-optimizing divmod into quotrem? I tried on apple silicon and couldn't find appreciable differences
2025-04-04 01:19:04 +0200tabemann_tabemann
2025-04-04 01:22:24 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f05c47cfd219ef4d968.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-04 01:22:33 +0200 <Axman6> There has been work to implement efficient division by known constants but I'm not sure if it ever got merged. I was going to work on it but someone else was on it already (and using a less efficient algorithm afaict)
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2025-04-04 01:29:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 01:30:55 +0200 <geekosaur> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22152 is marked fixed. I'm not immediately finding the buggy constant division optimization that got into 9.12.1
2025-04-04 01:34:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 01:38:05 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-04-04 01:38:18 +0200inca(~inca@syn-098-011-170-006.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-04-04 01:44:42 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> I don't think GHC can figure out in my context that it's always positive thus quotrem introduces no inaccuracy
2025-04-04 01:44:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 01:45:13 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also my benchmark is probably wrong, just forcing the value i'm looking for, without using it, is still causing substantial kernel time
2025-04-04 01:46:08 +0200 <Axman6> quotRem is often faster than divMod, and should be preferred if you're working with only positivie inputs
2025-04-04 01:46:14 +0200 <Axman6> positive*
2025-04-04 01:47:00 +0200 <c_wraith> isn't quotRem what hardware actually gives you, with divMod requiring some fixups?
2025-04-04 01:47:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's not kernel time, i'm just misreading
2025-04-04 01:47:11 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> zsh time
2025-04-04 01:47:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> facepalm
2025-04-04 01:48:06 +0200jacopovalanzano(~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2025-04-04 01:50:00 +0200 <Axman6> I did some of the work to make this _a lot_ faster on aarch64, adding access to the UMULH and UMULL instructions
2025-04-04 01:50:20 +0200 <Axman6> (Which I think got backported to 9.10 not too long ago)
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2025-04-04 02:11:27 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
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2025-04-04 04:51:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> thanks Axman6!
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2025-04-04 05:00:20 +0200ChanServ+v haskellbridge
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2025-04-04 05:06:40 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> that's cool, on apple m3, using time, C is 0.31s user 0.01s system for pidigits
2025-04-04 05:07:12 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-04-04 05:09:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> vs cabal run pidigits.hs -- 10000 -N4 0.43s user 0.02s system 95% cpu 0.472 total
2025-04-04 05:11:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> which is really freaking weird, the "div" outperforms the "quote"
2025-04-04 05:11:22 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> erm, "quot"
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2025-04-04 06:32:18 +0200pabs3Guest7041
2025-04-04 06:32:18 +0200Guest7041(~pabs3@user/pabs3) (Killed (tantalum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
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2025-04-04 06:33:31 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> does anyone have an intel system and is willing to help with benchmarks here?
2025-04-04 06:33:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/pidigits.html
2025-04-04 06:34:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> on my system, quot does not introduce any advantages over div, but i'm on apple silicon, but the Haskell on apple silicon is taking 50% more time than the C
2025-04-04 06:34:50 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> whereas on their benchmarks, it's roughly 2x the time
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2025-04-04 06:49:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 06:56:07 +0200ERR0R157(~ERR0R157@user/ERR0R157) ERR0R157
2025-04-04 07:01:33 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 07:05:24 +0200 <sim590> I just added the data constructor `Offline` here: https://github.com/sim590/habanga/blob/b965deab3e7a3802c93bcfc6d46df58eabda28d4/src/core/NetworkSt… And I tried using it over here: https://github.com/sim590/habanga/blob/b965deab3e7a3802c93bcfc6d46df58eabda28d4/src/tui/GameView.h… and it compiles correctly according to HLS (Haskell Language Server), but cabal build gives "Not in
2025-04-04 07:05:26 +0200 <sim590> scope: data constructor ‘NS.Offline’". Wtf ?
2025-04-04 07:05:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 07:05:59 +0200 <sim590> It is exported... All types and constructors are exported by that module. So, GHC is wrong here. But I don't get it.
2025-04-04 07:07:18 +0200 <sim590> If I replace `NS.Offline` by `_`, it compiles correctly...
2025-04-04 07:08:53 +0200takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be)
2025-04-04 07:10:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 07:14:07 +0200 <c_wraith> did the habanga-tui component get recompiled?
2025-04-04 07:14:18 +0200 <sim590> I did a full `v2-clean`.
2025-04-04 07:14:21 +0200 <sim590> Then, I recompiled.
2025-04-04 07:14:24 +0200 <sim590> Same error.
2025-04-04 07:14:48 +0200 <c_wraith> Did it actually compile that component during the recompile?
2025-04-04 07:15:03 +0200 <sim590> Oh I see.
2025-04-04 07:15:06 +0200 <sim590> Let me check.
2025-04-04 07:15:30 +0200 <sim590> That would explain.
2025-04-04 07:16:34 +0200 <c_wraith> oh, I had that backwards. -core is the one that might not be recompiling
2025-04-04 07:16:42 +0200 <c_wraith> but I suppose you know what I meant
2025-04-04 07:16:59 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 07:17:06 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-04-04 07:17:40 +0200 <sim590> c_wraith: here's what I got: https://paste.debian.net/1367361/
2025-04-04 07:17:41 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2025-04-04 07:17:47 +0200 <sim590> it does compile it.. :/
2025-04-04 07:17:54 +0200 <sim590> It's in NetworkState
2025-04-04 07:19:12 +0200 <c_wraith> Ok, getting into real "just in case" territory - are you sure you've saved the change?
2025-04-04 07:19:20 +0200 <sim590> Yes :D
2025-04-04 07:19:42 +0200 <sim590> Oh.
2025-04-04 07:19:44 +0200 <sim590> Fuc
2025-04-04 07:20:08 +0200 <sim590> I think I was editing the file in the Git staging area. Because of fugitive.vim.
2025-04-04 07:20:51 +0200 <c_wraith> That sounds way more confusing than any time I've saved to the wrong file.
2025-04-04 07:21:05 +0200 <c_wraith> ... which is surprisingly common
2025-04-04 07:21:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 07:21:57 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> is there a simpler way to do (unur . move)?
2025-04-04 07:22:11 +0200 <sim590> OK. There's clearly something. I'm not sure what it is yet. The file seems to be OK on disk, but git says it's "untracked". Even though, I committed it...
2025-04-04 07:22:15 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 07:24:25 +0200 <sim590> Ah gawd. It seems like my Vim decided to save the file in the root directory of the repo instead of it's usual path and I,ve been editing that file since. Damn.
2025-04-04 07:26:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-04-04 07:28:50 +0200ERR0R157(~ERR0R157@user/ERR0R157) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 07:29:31 +0200 <sim590> It seems like cabal decided to use the wrong NetworkState file in the root directory (that didn't have the constructor) even though `hs-source-dirs:` for `habanga-core` said `src/core`. So like if you have files in subdirectories, it's possible cabal/ghc confuses files in the root directories with files in the subdirectories. Seems like a bug.
2025-04-04 07:37:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 07:44:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 07:44:36 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Quit: au revoir)
2025-04-04 07:55:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 08:00:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-04 08:02:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 08:02:29 +0200fp1(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp
2025-04-04 08:07:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 08:08:13 +0200ft(~ft@p508db463.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
2025-04-04 08:12:12 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca)
2025-04-04 08:13:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> i guess i love my experience with linear haskell being, every few months:
2025-04-04 08:13:48 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> "wow, linear haskell is a wonderful idea"
2025-04-04 08:13:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> then
2025-04-04 08:14:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> "developed by people who thought the best part of Rust was fighting with the borrow checker"
2025-04-04 08:19:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 08:21:07 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) Unicorn_Princess
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2025-04-04 09:16:44 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2025-04-04 09:22:18 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f05c0965f70e915e324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2025-04-04 09:25:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 09:43:57 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2025-04-04 10:02:17 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-04-04 10:05:36 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
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2025-04-04 10:37:07 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
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2025-04-04 10:46:40 +0200jacopovalanzano(~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net)
2025-04-04 10:48:24 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2025-04-04 11:13:33 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2025-04-04 11:15:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-04 11:24:13 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@89.56.182.235) (Quit: ash3en)
2025-04-04 11:27:27 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-04-04 11:27:42 +0200hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi2417424.contaboserver.net) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.3)
2025-04-04 11:27:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 11:28:13 +0200hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi2417424.contaboserver.net) hughjfchen
2025-04-04 11:28:18 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-04-04 11:29:30 +0200 <hellwolf> I am a believer of LinearTypes. We need more people writing about it including practical use cases of it.
2025-04-04 11:29:37 +0200dhil(~dhil@2a0c:b381:52e:3600:d846:130d:349b:6b56) dhil
2025-04-04 11:30:30 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@89.56.182.235) ash3en
2025-04-04 11:31:12 +0200hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi2417424.contaboserver.net) (Client Quit)
2025-04-04 11:32:55 +0200hughjfchen(~hughjfche@vmi2417424.contaboserver.net) hughjfchen
2025-04-04 11:34:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 11:35:29 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) amadaluzia
2025-04-04 11:35:33 +0200 <hellwolf> IMO, LinearTypes, linearity on arrows, is more versatile, e.g.: 1) LT can type correctly the protocol of resource accessing (memory management, e.g.), 2.) LT can safely versioning of the data, so that you don't use outdated data and cause losses in financial applications, 3.) model concurrency better than overly-sequential monadically, see "motivation" part of the lineartypes proposal.
2025-04-04 11:36:23 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 11:36:44 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) amadaluzia
2025-04-04 11:41:51 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> How's the ghc optimization of linear values progressed? Last I checked (ughh how many years ago) it was still worse than unboxing vectors and values and using ST
2025-04-04 11:43:15 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Quick googling shows that it's still not as good, sad https://0xd34df00d.me/posts/2024/09/naive-nfas.html#linear-vectors
2025-04-04 11:46:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 11:48:29 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca)
2025-04-04 11:52:37 +0200hseg(~gesh@46.120.20.180)
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2025-04-04 11:58:01 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
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2025-04-04 12:01:15 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-04-04 12:03:35 +0200 <kqr> Is there a conduit function for splitting Text up into words, and running the conduit for each word? I found Data.Conduit.Text.lines so I could probably mirror that implementation in my own words function, but it would be even more convenient if there was something ready-made I'm missing.
2025-04-04 12:04:07 +0200 <kqr> I have thought about first splitting into lines, and then splitting the line into words with regular Text functions, and then re-yielding each word. Is that a reasonable approach?
2025-04-04 12:04:33 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-04 12:10:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 12:19:13 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-04-04 12:23:01 +0200 <hseg> int-e: Turns out 9.10.1 is an option -- hlint supports it already
2025-04-04 12:24:08 +0200 <hseg> So while I put "report ghc-lib-parser is also affected by https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25576" on my todo list, I now have a workaround for the meantime
2025-04-04 12:30:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 12:31:46 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2025-04-04 12:33:44 +0200img(~img@user/img) img
2025-04-04 12:34:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2025-04-04 12:41:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> Morj: I am not sure.
2025-04-04 12:41:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> But I will say is, there should be more to sell than performance, is it not? Otherwise people will rather stick to C/C++ or Rust.
2025-04-04 12:44:47 +0200tabaqui(~tabaqui@167.71.80.236) tabaqui
2025-04-04 12:45:01 +0200szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) szkl
2025-04-04 12:46:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 12:50:10 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca)
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2025-04-04 12:56:12 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2025-04-04 12:58:27 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) wootehfoot
2025-04-04 12:59:12 +0200ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-04-04 13:01:55 +0200hseg(~gesh@46.120.20.180) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.0)
2025-04-04 13:05:34 +0200 <kqr> Unrelated to the above: what would it take to derive semigroup and monoid? GHC suggests DeriveAnyClass but I have a vague memory that would be overkill.
2025-04-04 13:06:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-04 14:11:07 +0200tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) tremon
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2025-04-04 14:13:15 +0200dyniec(~dyniec@dybiec.info)
2025-04-04 14:16:56 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f05c0965f70e915e324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-04 14:20:27 +0200Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-04-04 14:22:26 +0200DigitteknohippieDigit
2025-04-04 14:28:34 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-04-04 14:30:00 +0200fp1(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp
2025-04-04 14:31:08 +0200mange(~user@user/mange) (Quit: Zzz...)
2025-04-04 14:32:03 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) Inst
2025-04-04 14:32:10 +0200 <Inst> this just feels wrong
2025-04-04 14:32:12 +0200 <Inst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1BYeLvRm
2025-04-04 14:32:47 +0200 <Inst> this is an expanded for clarity version of Gordon Goodsman's solution here
2025-04-04 14:32:50 +0200 <Inst> https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/program/pidigits-ghc-6.html
2025-04-04 14:32:53 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca)
2025-04-04 14:33:05 +0200 <Inst> the integer is intentional
2025-04-04 14:33:40 +0200 <Inst> But Gordon's version is the best performing right now
2025-04-04 14:37:37 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-04 14:38:07 +0200 <Inst> i mean, i could change it to ST, I tried a version with linear types that got blown up by poor support for integer in linear base
2025-04-04 14:44:49 +0200ft(~ft@p508db463.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2025-04-04 14:45:40 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com)
2025-04-04 14:51:58 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:c0fa:b50a:3031:4dce)
2025-04-04 14:55:01 +0200smalltalkman(uid545680@id-545680.hampstead.irccloud.com) smalltalkman
2025-04-04 14:57:25 +0200Inst(~Inst@user/Inst) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 15:04:58 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> hellwolf: The good part about haskell is that you can get high performance and still use a good language with safety guarantees and pretty APIs. Linear types make the second even better, and if they did the first it would be incredible
2025-04-04 15:07:25 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) Square
2025-04-04 15:08:25 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 15:08:34 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> It would be ideal. Yes. But I must admit I overlooked a lot Haskell's performance side of things in my use cases so far..
2025-04-04 15:09:25 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> And I admit that it could improve a lot of its adoption if we had both safety and performance. It's probably too obvious :)
2025-04-04 15:10:28 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca)
2025-04-04 15:10:30 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I hope there is no such a trilemma exist: syntax (ergonomics), performance and safety.
2025-04-04 15:13:36 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I'm usually happy with the performance of the regular code, especially compared to something like python or typescript. I've also for several years worked on a project where we were writing video decoders in haskell and cared about performance a lot, and it we were able to go very far with it
2025-04-04 15:14:31 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> I'm also always surprised by the fact that haskell TUIs are mostly faster than rust ones, somehow
2025-04-04 15:23:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> Morj: Nice read.
2025-04-04 15:23:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> Is that your blog?
2025-04-04 15:23:29 +0200hattckory(~hattckory@bras-base-toroon4524w-grc-30-70-27-118-207.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-04 15:23:49 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Nope, some guy I follow
2025-04-04 15:32:38 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 15:36:27 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-04-04 15:39:10 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-04-04 15:39:22 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com)
2025-04-04 15:39:47 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-04-04 15:40:43 +0200sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f176a0098ec2c88260f9eb5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
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2025-04-04 15:53:24 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-04 15:57:41 +0200bezik(~bezik@wikipedia/bezik) bezik
2025-04-04 15:58:41 +0200toby-bro(~toby-bro@user/toby-bro) toby-bro
2025-04-04 15:58:58 +0200aman(~aman@user/aman) aman
2025-04-04 16:01:18 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-04-04 16:05:04 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-04 16:05:47 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com)
2025-04-04 16:08:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> hmmm, just built a version under ST array, seems to lose about 2% speed compared to accum parameter :(
2025-04-04 16:10:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> plus side, at least I've had a legitimate use for unsafeInterleaveST for the first time in my life
2025-04-04 16:11:47 +0200gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) (Quit: quit)
2025-04-04 16:11:48 +0200inca(~inca@syn-172-100-032-197.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 16:14:50 +0200 <EvanR> pure functional for the win
2025-04-04 16:15:20 +0200 <EvanR> yes ST is purely functional but the mutation will have a GC cost
2025-04-04 16:15:36 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 16:16:57 +0200 <EvanR> "haskell TUIs are faster than rust TUIs" how do you even measure the airspeed speed velocity of a TUI
2025-04-04 16:18:50 +0200 <EvanR> s/speed speed/speed/
2025-04-04 16:25:31 +0200 <darkling> Well, first you get an unladen swallow, and...
2025-04-04 16:28:16 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628)
2025-04-04 16:40:06 +0200szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-04-04 16:40:54 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-04-04 16:41:50 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2025-04-04 16:52:30 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:ab8a:5a00:988a:cdd2:ae2a:2121) (Quit: ubert)
2025-04-04 16:58:12 +0200 <EvanR> if a^3 < b^3 then a < b because cube root is a monotonic function and can be applied to both sides. But if a and b are rational and you only have the laws of rational numbers... I'm having a hard time proving this
2025-04-04 16:59:03 +0200 <EvanR> similar to if (assuming a and b are > 0) a^2 < b^2 then a < b. Not sure which is simpler. I can't do either
2025-04-04 16:59:14 +0200 <int-e> you can prove the contrapositive
2025-04-04 16:59:33 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> > how do you even measure the airspeed speed velocity of a TUIMore responsive to button presses, you know. I haven't measured it with a stopwatch, but it's noticeable how fast ghcup is for example
2025-04-04 17:00:03 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-04-04 17:00:54 +0200 <EvanR> int-e, that would seem to prove "it can't not be true"
2025-04-04 17:01:19 +0200 <EvanR> this is from a book that is supposedly "a constructive approach" and the hint is also suggesting an indirect proof
2025-04-04 17:01:26 +0200 <int-e> good enough for me
2025-04-04 17:01:44 +0200 <int-e> (I default to classical logic)
2025-04-04 17:01:58 +0200 <EvanR> it might not be classical logic since we're talking about rationals
2025-04-04 17:02:11 +0200 <EvanR> I mean, just classical
2025-04-04 17:02:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> You don't need any laws of rational numbers here though
2025-04-04 17:03:24 +0200 <EvanR> if you only have the laws of rational numbers, then you either need them or you can do it with nothing
2025-04-04 17:03:47 +0200 <EvanR> (or it's impossible)
2025-04-04 17:04:43 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> You only need the statement "forall a, b: a > b ==> a^3 > b^3" and the laws of the "<" relation as usual, with them you can prove the opposite direction as well
2025-04-04 17:04:53 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> This works for rational, whole or natural numbers
2025-04-04 17:04:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Uhh s/whole/integer/
2025-04-04 17:05:17 +0200 <EvanR> I can get if a < b then a^2 < b^2, but I'm not sure how that helps
2025-04-04 17:05:25 +0200 <EvanR> I couldn't get if a < b then a^3 < b^3
2025-04-04 17:05:38 +0200 <EvanR> but either way that's the wrong direction
2025-04-04 17:05:56 +0200 <int-e> your comparisons are decidable; you have trichotomy.
2025-04-04 17:06:02 +0200 <EvanR> ?
2025-04-04 17:06:10 +0200 <EvanR> sure
2025-04-04 17:06:15 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Wait, come again, what are you trying to prove from what?
2025-04-04 17:06:23 +0200 <EvanR> if a^3 < b^3 then a < b
2025-04-04 17:06:38 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> And what facts are given?
2025-04-04 17:06:48 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
2025-04-04 17:06:53 +0200 <EvanR> rational numbers
2025-04-04 17:07:15 +0200 <int-e> This will still follow from "if a >= b then a^3 >= b^3" by case analysis on the comparison a < b.
2025-04-04 17:07:16 +0200 <EvanR> ok, a and b exist and are rational
2025-04-04 17:07:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Morj> Rational numbers, depending on your class, might not have an "<" associated :D
2025-04-04 17:07:35 +0200 <EvanR> they do, obviously
2025-04-04 17:07:57 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in)
2025-04-04 17:07:58 +0200TheCoffeMaker_(~TheCoffeM@186.136.173.70)
2025-04-04 17:08:32 +0200 <EvanR> alright case analysis on a < b
2025-04-04 17:08:39 +0200TheCoffeMaker(~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:08:47 +0200 <EvanR> you use "if a < b then a^3 < b^3" but I couldn't prove this xD
2025-04-04 17:09:07 +0200 <int-e> comparing a and b you get three cases: a < b and a^3 < b^3; a = b an a^3 = b^3; a > b and a^3 > b^3.
2025-04-04 17:09:09 +0200 <EvanR> but also you'd have to dispatch the no, actually b < a case
2025-04-04 17:09:25 +0200 <EvanR> you went from a < b to a^3 < b^3
2025-04-04 17:09:31 +0200 <EvanR> how
2025-04-04 17:10:26 +0200 <int-e> if 0 <= a < b then a^3 <= a^2b <= ab^2 < b^3. The case a < b <= 0 is similar, and a <= 0 <= b and a < b falls to looking at signs
2025-04-04 17:10:40 +0200 <int-e> by the laws of an ordered field
2025-04-04 17:10:52 +0200 <EvanR> wait
2025-04-04 17:11:16 +0200 <EvanR> yes I got a^3 < a^2b and ab^2 < b^3 separately
2025-04-04 17:11:29 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) dolio
2025-04-04 17:11:38 +0200 <EvanR> how did you get a^2b < ab^2
2025-04-04 17:12:05 +0200 <int-e> you multiply a < b by a from the left and by b from the right
2025-04-04 17:12:27 +0200 <EvanR> that's ab < ab
2025-04-04 17:12:27 +0200 <int-e> it's just <= because a = 0 is a possibility
2025-04-04 17:12:30 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Client Quit)
2025-04-04 17:12:35 +0200 <EvanR> er
2025-04-04 17:13:03 +0200EvanRrecapitulates
2025-04-04 17:13:18 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 17:13:34 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) dolio
2025-04-04 17:15:31 +0200 <int-e> TBH the funny part of this is that you were (apparently) willing to accept that the cube root function is strictly monotonic.
2025-04-04 17:16:08 +0200__jmcantrell__(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2025-04-04 17:16:12 +0200 <EvanR> well that's a fact about real numbers right
2025-04-04 17:16:47 +0200 <int-e> well it's not if you apply the same level of skepticism that you're currently applying to the strict monotonicity of f(x) = x^3 in the rationals
2025-04-04 17:18:32 +0200 <EvanR> I don't understand, I'm not skeptical. I'm trying to go from certain assumptions to a conclusion
2025-04-04 17:18:58 +0200 <int-e> well, f(x) = x^3 being monotonic is a fact about rational number.s
2025-04-04 17:19:05 +0200 <EvanR> not absolute truths, or "doesn't matter somebody somewhere has already done this one"
2025-04-04 17:19:05 +0200int-eshrugs
2025-04-04 17:19:36 +0200 <EvanR> it might be but I didn't get there
2025-04-04 17:19:56 +0200 <int-e> so how did you get there for the cube root in the reals?
2025-04-04 17:19:56 +0200 <EvanR> but we just proved that
2025-04-04 17:20:04 +0200 <EvanR> I didn't that's the point
2025-04-04 17:20:28 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:c0fa:b50a:3031:4dce) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-04-04 17:20:56 +0200 <EvanR> also it wouldn't even help, are you going to apply a function coded for real numbers to rationals? xD
2025-04-04 17:21:10 +0200 <int-e> the rationals are a subfield of the reals
2025-04-04 17:21:29 +0200 <int-e> (another fact)
2025-04-04 17:21:30 +0200 <EvanR> this is "real anaylsis: a constructive approach"
2025-04-04 17:21:38 +0200j1n37-(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-04-04 17:21:46 +0200 <EvanR> so I can't solve chapter 1 by using chapter 17 from the other book
2025-04-04 17:21:51 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:22:15 +0200 <EvanR> again, the task to is to reason from what's assumed and not from "any argument whatever"
2025-04-04 17:24:00 +0200fp1(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:24:24 +0200 <EvanR> maybe in chapter 17 there will be a thing to prove that any monotonic functions on reals can be downgraded to a monotonic function on rationals
2025-04-04 17:25:14 +0200 <EvanR> somehow
2025-04-04 17:32:33 +0200 <EvanR> a < b? yes, then you're done. Or a == b, then a^3==b^3 contradicting a^3 < b^3. Or b < a, using the above, b^3 < a^3, also contradicting.
2025-04-04 17:32:39 +0200 <EvanR> cool
2025-04-04 17:35:15 +0200 <EvanR> that means I don't have to solve this using the "hint use an indirect proof": Show that family of intervals [a,b] where a^3 <= 2 and 2 <= b^3 is consistent (any interval in the family intersects all the others)
2025-04-04 17:41:40 +0200 <kuribas> You could prove that (a*a*a)/(b*b*b) < (c*c*c*)/(d*d*d) then a/b < c/d
2025-04-04 17:41:52 +0200 <kuribas> For integral values of a, b, c, and d.
2025-04-04 17:42:26 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:43:30 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2025-04-04 17:45:39 +0200 <EvanR> if aaa / (bbb) < ccc / (ddd) then a/b < c/d?
2025-04-04 17:45:50 +0200 <EvanR> just cancel 4 things?
2025-04-04 17:45:53 +0200 <EvanR> wait
2025-04-04 17:45:59 +0200 <EvanR> nvm
2025-04-04 17:46:35 +0200 <EvanR> oh this is the same question. Well I tried that too and couldn't figure it out
2025-04-04 17:46:49 +0200 <kuribas> Where do you get stuck?
2025-04-04 17:47:19 +0200 <EvanR> immediately
2025-04-04 17:48:39 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:49:35 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628)
2025-04-04 17:49:57 +0200 <kuribas> It's easy for naturals no?
2025-04-04 17:51:14 +0200 <EvanR> what is
2025-04-04 17:51:20 +0200 <kuribas> The formula?
2025-04-04 17:51:32 +0200 <EvanR> nope
2025-04-04 17:51:38 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-04-04 17:51:56 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) amadaluzia
2025-04-04 17:52:13 +0200 <EvanR> aaaddd < bbbccc
2025-04-04 17:52:34 +0200 <EvanR> 1 < bbbccc / (aaaddd)
2025-04-04 17:52:49 +0200 <EvanR> aaaddd / (bbbccc) < 1
2025-04-04 17:54:39 +0200 <kuribas> a < b -> a*c < b*d if c < d and a < b
2025-04-04 17:54:59 +0200 <kuribas> Easy proof by induction
2025-04-04 17:55:04 +0200 <EvanR> you know what's easy, drawing two squares of different sizes aligned to corners, and extending one edge to map the other edge onto the larger side, and it's obviously shorter xD
2025-04-04 17:55:23 +0200 <EvanR> or the cube version where you can extend a diagonal from the smaller cube onto larger cubes side
2025-04-04 17:56:08 +0200 <EvanR> but this book is all about "no pictures!"
2025-04-04 17:56:56 +0200 <kuribas> Anyway, I think "aaa < bbb -> a < b " is easy to prove by induction for naturals.
2025-04-04 17:57:27 +0200 <EvanR> kuribas, a < b -> a*c < b*d ... ok I'm not seeing the connection. So that requires a < b, which we are trying to prove
2025-04-04 17:57:43 +0200 <kuribas> right, that's the wrong direction.
2025-04-04 17:58:13 +0200 <EvanR> I'll try that induction
2025-04-04 17:58:37 +0200 <int-e> a*c < b*d if c < d and a < b is most elegantly split into two steps, a*c < b*c < b*d or a*c < a*d < b*d.
2025-04-04 17:58:46 +0200 <EvanR> double induction 😱
2025-04-04 17:59:13 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 17:59:31 +0200 <int-e> err the first comparison in either chain should be <= if 0 is allowed
2025-04-04 18:00:51 +0200 <haskellbridge> <sm> Morj: Morj, really ? This surprises me
2025-04-04 18:01:32 +0200 <sm> ("haskell TUIs are always faster than rust ones")
2025-04-04 18:02:20 +0200 <EvanR> after thinking about it, I now see that your two "either or" formulas are not the "two steps" xD
2025-04-04 18:03:10 +0200 <kuribas> aaa < a*a*a+n for some positive n. Also a*a*a+n = (a+m)(a+m)(a+m) for some m where b = a+m. Prove that m is positive.
2025-04-04 18:03:13 +0200 <EvanR> ac < bc and bc < bd gets ac < bd, and other other thing was another route
2025-04-04 18:04:15 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-04-04 18:04:28 +0200 <EvanR> aaa+n = (a+m)(a+m)(a+m) for some m ?
2025-04-04 18:04:43 +0200 <EvanR> seems like a leap to me
2025-04-04 18:05:17 +0200 <kuribas> EvanR: definition of `<` and `b`
2025-04-04 18:05:31 +0200 <EvanR> that's an equal sign
2025-04-04 18:06:06 +0200 <EvanR> ok, multiply out all the a+m and you get one aaa term
2025-04-04 18:06:12 +0200 <EvanR> now I get it
2025-04-04 18:06:59 +0200 <kuribas> We have the premise aaa < bbb, which means exists m such that "bbb = aaa + m"
2025-04-04 18:07:06 +0200 <kuribas> It's the definition of < for naturals.
2025-04-04 18:07:34 +0200 <EvanR> yeah it's just that I'm only considering your actual messages xD
2025-04-04 18:07:46 +0200 <kuribas> sorry, I used n above.
2025-04-04 18:08:05 +0200 <EvanR> since I have no idea what I'm doing
2025-04-04 18:08:14 +0200 <EvanR> it's not a case of already know it
2025-04-04 18:08:53 +0200 <EvanR> sm, yes... sounds like something else was slow in the apples to oranges comparison
2025-04-04 18:10:23 +0200 <kuribas> gtg
2025-04-04 18:10:31 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 18:11:46 +0200amadaluzia(~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 18:21:33 +0200gorignak(~gorignak@user/gorignak) gorignak
2025-04-04 18:22:26 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2025-04-04 18:23:21 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-04-04 18:33:18 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-04-04 18:36:19 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-04-04 18:36:53 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628)
2025-04-04 18:38:54 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 18:39:59 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a)
2025-04-04 18:45:38 +0200Square2(~Square@user/square) Square
2025-04-04 18:46:02 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-04-04 18:46:44 +0200rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-04-04 18:49:09 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 18:58:38 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-04-04 18:59:32 +0200nitrix(~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in)
2025-04-04 19:05:39 +0200Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-04-04 19:06:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:07:40 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:10:15 +0200Digitteknohippiedigitteknohippie
2025-04-04 19:10:20 +0200digitteknohippieDigitteknohippie
2025-04-04 19:11:47 +0200Digit(~user@user/digit) (Quit: sorting out accidental double login)
2025-04-04 19:12:01 +0200DigitteknohippieDigit
2025-04-04 19:12:30 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh
2025-04-04 19:15:54 +0200dhil(~dhil@2a0c:b381:52e:3600:d846:130d:349b:6b56) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:17:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 19:18:30 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:20:57 +0200sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f176a0098ec2c88260f9eb5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2025-04-04 19:21:42 +0200rit(~rit@2409:40e0:39:317c:5ce4:875:e0a7:d628)
2025-04-04 19:24:07 +0200tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5ca9:4add:c07a:f3a) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-04-04 19:24:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:36:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-04 19:37:24 +0200SethTisue(sid14912@id-14912.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-04-04 19:38:19 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-04-04 19:39:36 +0200mud(~mud@user/kadoban) (Quit: quit)
2025-04-04 19:43:58 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:44:23 +0200mud(~mud@user/kadoban) kadoban
2025-04-04 19:46:30 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f050cb0d6601d636238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-04-04 19:50:30 +0200manwithluck(~manwithlu@2a09:bac5:5085:2dc::49:221) manwithluck