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2025/02/26

2025-02-26 00:00:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> hololeap: sepBy ((,) <$> manyTill (char ':') <*> manyTill (lookAhead (oneOf ":," <|> eof))) (char ',') ?
2025-02-26 00:01:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 00:01:26 +0100ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-02-26 00:02:18 +0100 <hololeap> hm, you would think with Parsec being a monad, it could be done with: sepBy anyChar (char ',') >>= mapM (...)
2025-02-26 00:02:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> anyChar parses _one_ character
2025-02-26 00:02:55 +0100 <hololeap> right, s/anyChar/(many anyChar)/
2025-02-26 00:03:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> also, while you can process the result of parsing later using (>>=), parsec always parses _from_ the input string
2025-02-26 00:03:13 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:03:13 +0100ljdarj1ljdarj
2025-02-26 00:03:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> you can't "re-inject" some arbitrary string into the source to be parsed
2025-02-26 00:04:22 +0100 <hololeap> I see
2025-02-26 00:05:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> of course you technically can just start a new parser for that string, and you can also `setInput`, but typically both are a bad idea
2025-02-26 00:05:52 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:06:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> hololeap: also, that "sepBy (many anyChar) (char ',')" wouldn't even work: the `many anyChar` would consume the entire input from here, and because it consumed input, it would count as "succeeded" which means it doesn't backtrack
2025-02-26 00:07:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> % import Text.Parsec
2025-02-26 00:07:16 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2025-02-26 00:07:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> % parse (sepBy (many anyChar) (char ',')) "<stdin>" "abc,def,ghi"
2025-02-26 00:07:24 +0100 <yahb2> Right ["abc,def,ghi"]
2025-02-26 00:07:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> hm, let's see if I can whiteboard code
2025-02-26 00:07:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> % parse (sepBy ((,) <$> manyTill (char ':') <*> manyTill (lookAhead (oneOf ":," <|> eof))) (char ',')) "<stdin>" "this:that,black:white"
2025-02-26 00:07:56 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:287:23: error: [GHC-83865] ; • Couldn't match expected type: ParsecT ; String () GHC.Internal.Data.Functor.Identity.Identity a1 ; ...
2025-02-26 00:08:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> evidently not!
2025-02-26 00:08:23 +0100 <tomsmeding> % parse (sepBy ((,) <$> manyTill anyChar (char ':') <*> manyTill anyChar (lookAhead (oneOf ":," <|> eof))) (char ',')) "<stdin>" "this:that,black:white"
2025-02-26 00:08:23 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:289:99: error: [GHC-83865] ; • Couldn't match type ‘()’ with ‘Char’ ; Expected: ParsecT ; String () GHC.Internal.Data.Functor.Identity.Identity Char ; ...
2025-02-26 00:08:26 +0100 <monochrom> Yikes, abuse of lookAhead again.
2025-02-26 00:08:50 +0100 <monochrom> many (satisfy (/= ',')) pretty please
2025-02-26 00:08:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> I guess
2025-02-26 00:09:49 +0100 <monochrom> What you should really lament, if you like, is that parsec is not regex, so whereas in regex you just have to say ".*,.*", you simply can't do that in parsec.
2025-02-26 00:10:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> % parse (sepBy ((,) <$> (many (satisfy (/= ':')) <* char ':') <*> many (satisfy (`notElem` ":,"))) (char ',')) "<stdin>" "this:that,black:white"
2025-02-26 00:10:09 +0100 <yahb2> Right [("this","that"),("black","white")]
2025-02-26 00:10:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> hololeap: there
2025-02-26 00:10:29 +0100foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-138-88.tukw.qwest.net) foul_owl
2025-02-26 00:10:32 +0100 <hololeap> cool, thanks :)
2025-02-26 00:10:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: thanks, it's been too long since I parsec'd, this is also nicer to write
2025-02-26 00:10:44 +0100 <monochrom> BTW the "convenience" of regex allowing that is avenged by the fact that such high non-determinism causes exp-time or exp-space.
2025-02-26 00:10:57 +0100 <hololeap> although I wonder if it would be more readable to just do this with span from Data.List
2025-02-26 00:11:37 +0100 <tomsmeding> if you write out that <$> <*> sequence as a do-block, it gets much more readable
2025-02-26 00:11:39 +0100 <monochrom> Oh, the split package has tools for that too.
2025-02-26 00:12:12 +0100 <monochrom> You can write your own recursion over span. But the split package does that for you.
2025-02-26 00:12:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> hololeap: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/QHaiHEVF
2025-02-26 00:12:43 +0100 <monochrom> Although, I confess that I want 0 dependencies so I wrote my own recursion :)
2025-02-26 00:12:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> but yes, a splitting function is perhaps nicer here
2025-02-26 00:16:46 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 00:20:18 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2025-02-26 00:21:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:23:46 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 00:28:14 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:32:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 00:36:46 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-02-26 00:37:49 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) rvalue
2025-02-26 00:38:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:50:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 00:51:13 +0100src(~src@user/src) src
2025-02-26 00:55:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-02-26 00:58:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 00:59:26 +0100 <EvanR> is parsec more or less powerful than regex
2025-02-26 00:59:41 +0100 <EvanR> does it hinge on whether unlimited lookahead is regex
2025-02-26 01:00:25 +0100 <geekosaur> if regex is extended with "functions", see raku
2025-02-26 01:00:36 +0100 <mauke> parsec can nest
2025-02-26 01:00:57 +0100 <geekosaur> but there's some question as to whether that's actually "regex" (I think the "actually should be regular" ship sailed years ago)
2025-02-26 01:03:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:07:40 +0100 <EvanR> I guess irregular expressions isn't particularly marketable
2025-02-26 01:10:48 +0100mange(~user@user/mange) mange
2025-02-26 01:11:03 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 01:12:50 +0100 <jackdk> Don't we call those "perl compatible"?
2025-02-26 01:13:47 +0100 <mauke> I think "perl compatible" is mostly about syntax (ok, and some features as well)
2025-02-26 01:14:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 01:14:16 +0100 <mauke> backreferences existed long before perl
2025-02-26 01:15:31 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:16:44 +0100Googulator78(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0c81-ad7c-ac56-196b-c9a2.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-02-26 01:16:45 +0100 <EvanR> now I have to pull out the history to figure out what "long before perl" means
2025-02-26 01:17:04 +0100 <geekosaur> egrep
2025-02-26 01:18:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:19:42 +0100 <mauke> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/623521/why-does-ed-support-backreferences-but-not-alterna…
2025-02-26 01:20:10 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0c81-ad7c-ac56-196b-c9a2.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:21:54 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-02-26 01:26:59 +0100 <geekosaur> mm, right, forgot ed went back even further
2025-02-26 01:29:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 01:29:38 +0100 <ski> geekosaur : "IrRegular Expressions" by foof at <https://synthcode.com/scheme/irregex/>
2025-02-26 01:32:29 +0100krei-se-(~krei-se@p3ee0f060.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) krei-se
2025-02-26 01:32:35 +0100 <mauke> the bell labs regex code wasn't freely available, so perl 2.0 incorporated henry spencer's implementation, which used backtracking
2025-02-26 01:33:36 +0100krei-se(~krei-se@p3ee0fb6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:33:52 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:34:49 +0100ski. o O ( "Regular Expression Matching Can Be Simple And Fast (but is slow in Java, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby, ...)" by Russ Cox in 2007-01 at <https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html> )
2025-02-26 01:36:02 +0100 <mauke> "With the exception of backreferences, the features provided by the slow backtracking implementations can be provided by the automata-based implementations at dramatically faster, more consistent speeds." is of course wrong
2025-02-26 01:36:26 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:40:22 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) JuanDaugherty
2025-02-26 01:44:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 01:45:24 +0100 <geekosaur> yeh, I think pretty much everyone was using Spencer's code back then
2025-02-26 01:49:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:51:03 +0100sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f33ea00547a79769710f53f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-02-26 01:53:34 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-02-26 01:56:13 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:3152:bac6:3fc:3eb6) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 01:56:47 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 02:00:15 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 02:01:00 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:02:13 +0100zungi(~tory@user/andrewchawk) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-02-26 02:04:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:06:47 +0100zungi(~tory@user/andrewchawk) andrewchawk
2025-02-26 02:07:36 +0100JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org))
2025-02-26 02:08:19 +0100takuan(~takuan@d8D86B601.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:15:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 02:16:05 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:17:25 +0100 <cheater> i'm still dismayed that no one extended regex to include negative matches
2025-02-26 02:17:41 +0100 <cheater> since they can always be compiled down to a finite amount of positive matches
2025-02-26 02:18:01 +0100 <cheater> just that negative matches are human readable and the positive version isn't
2025-02-26 02:18:37 +0100 <geekosaur> actual perl REs have negative matches
2025-02-26 02:18:52 +0100 <cheater> as in, "matching this rejects the match"?
2025-02-26 02:18:57 +0100 <geekosaur> or at least negative lookahead
2025-02-26 02:19:01 +0100 <geekosaur> yes
2025-02-26 02:19:11 +0100 <cheater> how would you match for hat, but not within the word what?
2025-02-26 02:19:28 +0100yegorc(~yegorc@user/yegorc) yegorc
2025-02-26 02:19:42 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:19:53 +0100 <Square> If I have a project that contains .cabal files it seems newer versions of cabal tries to use all these files to resolve dependencies. Is there a way to neglect other .cabal files in a project?
2025-02-26 02:20:07 +0100 <Square> s/contains/contains several/
2025-02-26 02:20:38 +0100 <cheater> idk but maybe cabal.project
2025-02-26 02:20:44 +0100 <geekosaur> --ignore-project
2025-02-26 02:21:24 +0100 <geekosaur> this isn't usually what you actually want, though, as it can lead to mutually incompatible project components
2025-02-26 02:21:48 +0100 <geekosaur> which is why cabal solves for the whole project
2025-02-26 02:22:16 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:23:07 +0100 <Square> thanks. I'm migrating a project - sub-project by sub-project.
2025-02-26 02:23:32 +0100 <Square> ...so during that phase it might help me to work on them individually first
2025-02-26 02:27:01 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:d9b2:488b:3c7b:5f95) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:33:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 02:38:41 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:42:30 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 02:42:55 +0100 <geekosaur> you might do better making a temporary project file containing only the parts you need, because eventually you'll hit dependencies within the project and will need them to be visible
2025-02-26 02:43:48 +0100yegorc(~yegorc@user/yegorc) (Leaving)
2025-02-26 02:44:18 +0100 <Square> gotcha. I'll keep that in mind if I run into problems
2025-02-26 02:44:25 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2025-02-26 02:45:23 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:47:12 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:47:26 +0100messewix(~jmc@user/messewix) messewix
2025-02-26 02:47:57 +0100 <mauke> cheater: (?<!w)hat
2025-02-26 02:48:42 +0100 <cheater> nice
2025-02-26 02:48:46 +0100 <cheater> does this work in any greps?
2025-02-26 02:48:57 +0100 <mauke> the positive version is (?:^|[^w])hat
2025-02-26 02:49:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 02:49:56 +0100 <mauke> should work in GNU grep -P
2025-02-26 02:50:04 +0100 <mauke> and ack, if you count that as a grep
2025-02-26 02:50:12 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-02-26 02:53:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 02:54:49 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f3800c9913f6d25b0a5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:04:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 03:04:31 +0100olivial_(~benjaminl@2601:1c0:847f:9c70:223:24ff:fe66:4370) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-02-26 03:04:45 +0100olivial(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) benjaminl
2025-02-26 03:08:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:12:04 +0100vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:13:59 +0100vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2025-02-26 03:19:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 03:20:22 +0100 <cheater> mauke: fantastic
2025-02-26 03:20:29 +0100 <cheater> i guess rg doesn't do it though?
2025-02-26 03:20:42 +0100 <cheater> rg... sigh...
2025-02-26 03:21:51 +0100 <mauke> needs --pcre2, apparently
2025-02-26 03:24:02 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-02-26 03:24:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:28:55 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 03:31:00 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-02-26 03:31:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> cheater both structural regular expressions (Bell Labs, some time ago) and PEG have negative matches IIRC
2025-02-26 03:31:32 +0100 <cheater> hmmmm
2025-02-26 03:31:33 +0100 <cheater> thank you
2025-02-26 03:31:34 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Structural regex seems to be more powerful. It's definitely more practical for interactive usage
2025-02-26 03:31:46 +0100 <cheater> what's structural
2025-02-26 03:33:02 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:35:15 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 03:39:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:40:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Instead of operating in lines, it operates in selections. It can do things like "select all strings matching this pattern, even if spread across multiple lines", "replace using this pattern on these selections", "invert selected" and more
2025-02-26 03:41:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> So SRE is for interactive usage (that was what it was designed for, based on Bell Labs' documentation), and PEG is like CFG but more language parsing oriented
2025-02-26 03:44:02 +0100pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-02-26 03:44:34 +0100 <mauke> not very structured if it doesn't handle nesting
2025-02-26 03:45:06 +0100 <mauke> e.g. you can't easily say "select the current block of code"
2025-02-26 03:50:31 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-02-26 03:50:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 03:51:17 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b06e:701b:8c92:bcff:3789:c22c) bilegeek
2025-02-26 03:51:37 +0100pointlessslippe1(~pointless@62.106.85.17) pointlessslippe1
2025-02-26 03:51:50 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-02-26 03:52:14 +0100lol_jcarpenter2
2025-02-26 03:52:53 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 03:57:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:08:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 04:12:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:14:59 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 04:19:14 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:24:02 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 04:27:59 +0100tromp(~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:b949:287e:6bbd:873b)
2025-02-26 04:28:36 +0100tromp(~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:b949:287e:6bbd:873b) (Client Quit)
2025-02-26 04:29:03 +0100 <Square> Template haskell has changed a bit between GHC 8.6 and 9.6. I cant wrap my head on the new signature for DataInstD
2025-02-26 04:29:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:29:17 +0100 <Square> Was: DataInstD Cxt Name [Type] (Maybe Kind) [Con] [DerivClause]
2025-02-26 04:29:33 +0100 <Square> Now: DataInstD Cxt (Maybe [TyVarBndr ()]) Type (Maybe Kind) [Con] [DerivClause]
2025-02-26 04:31:18 +0100 <Square> so for "class MyClass a b where ; data MyData a b" I declared an instance with...
2025-02-26 04:32:09 +0100 <Square> DataInstD [] (mkName "MyData") [aType,bType] (Nothing) constructors [deriveClause]
2025-02-26 04:32:48 +0100 <Square> I'm not sure how to migrate that to 9.6
2025-02-26 04:35:39 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:36:21 +0100plitter(~plitter@user/plitter) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:39:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 04:40:58 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:43:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-02-26 04:51:45 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
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2025-02-26 09:34:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> @tell Square it seems the `Type [Name]` has moved into the `Type`: instead of `DataInstD _ n [t1,t2]` write `DataInstD _ Nothing (n `AppT` t1 `AppT` t2)`
2025-02-26 09:34:05 +0100 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2025-02-26 09:34:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> @tell Square trick: you can evaluate quotes in ghci and see what AST they produce, e.g. [d| data instance T [x] = A x | B (T x) |]
2025-02-26 09:34:38 +0100 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2025-02-26 09:36:44 +0100aforemny_(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc7:1800:f602:cc4c:87fe:731d) aforemny
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2025-02-26 09:39:14 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:7180:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen
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2025-02-26 09:51:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Hah, I had exactly the same stuff written into the input buffer, but I believed that this @tell thing surely did not survive the freenode libera crisis. :-)
2025-02-26 09:55:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> lambdabot transcends worlds!
2025-02-26 10:02:26 +0100LainExperiments(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) LainExperiments
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2025-02-26 10:11:09 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele) chele
2025-02-26 10:17:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> How are the components of a GHC version called? E.g. for 9.12.1, how do I call the "9", the "12" and the "1"?
2025-02-26 10:18:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> the GHC user guide ( https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/intro.html#ghc-version-numbering-policy ) seems to call the "1" the "patchlevel number", and uses the word "major release" for any abstract version x.y.z
2025-02-26 10:19:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> the HLS GHC version support page ( https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/support/ghc-version-support.html ) seems to use "minor" for "1" and "major" for "9.12", but it's a little bit unclear
2025-02-26 10:20:32 +0100 <tomsmeding> Stackage seems to use the same terminology as HLS ( https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stackage#frequently-asked-questions )
2025-02-26 10:20:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> (but it's not specified, just implied)
2025-02-26 10:22:46 +0100GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.3)
2025-02-26 10:24:20 +0100GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
2025-02-26 10:25:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> ah, and the GHC wiki calls any N.M.1 a major release, and any N.M.{2,3,...} a minor release! https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/GHC-status#1-release-practices
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2025-02-26 10:35:35 +0100 <cheater> what do you call a pair of functions in mathematics f, g, f: X -> Y and g: Y -> X such that \A x \in X \E f(x) and \A y \in Y \E g(y)?
2025-02-26 10:36:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> what do you mean with "\E f(x)"?
2025-02-26 10:36:59 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
2025-02-26 10:37:13 +0100 <tomsmeding> perhaps you meant "\A x \in X \E y (f(x) = y)"?
2025-02-26 10:37:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> or something
2025-02-26 10:39:43 +0100 <Leary> tomsmeding: In line with HLS: 9.12 ~ major (version (numbers)); 1 ~ minor (version (number)). At least that's the language I would use; I doubt there's an official decree.
2025-02-26 10:40:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> Leary: Well, then the GHC user guide disagrees, and the GHC wiki contests the nuance. :P
2025-02-26 10:40:32 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 10:41:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> though actually the GHC wiki terminology is rather close to this
2025-02-26 10:41:56 +0100 <cheater> tomsmeding: yes. that's a shorthand.
2025-02-26 10:42:07 +0100 <Leary> Multiple terminologies can coexist. I also don't consider the language around /releases/ to conflict with the language for the version components.
2025-02-26 10:42:32 +0100 <tomsmeding> cheater: so then that first formula says that f is total? I.e. it returns a result for every x?
2025-02-26 10:42:37 +0100 <cheater> yes
2025-02-26 10:42:40 +0100swamp_(~zmt00@user/zmt00) zmt00
2025-02-26 10:42:55 +0100 <cheater> a pair of total functions between two sets going in opposite directions
2025-02-26 10:42:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> I don't see any connection between f and g here
2025-02-26 10:43:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> those are just a pair of functions
2025-02-26 10:43:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> functions are total by default in mathematics
2025-02-26 10:43:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's the concept of a "partial function" that needs explicit note
2025-02-26 10:43:38 +0100kaskal(~kaskal@84-115-238-111.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) kaskal
2025-02-26 10:43:42 +0100 <cheater> they are total on their domains, but their domains don't have to line up like they do in my hypothesis
2025-02-26 10:43:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> (and that's usually modelled as a total function to Y + 1)
2025-02-26 10:44:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> Leary: That's fair
2025-02-26 10:44:34 +0100 <cheater> f and g are connected by the property i listed above: they are total on sets that contain each other's codomains
2025-02-26 10:45:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> cheater: if the functions have some equation relating them, then there may be appropriate terminology, but without any equation relating them, I don't think there's a word for this
2025-02-26 10:45:44 +0100 <cheater> the only property is that if you start in one set, you can infinitely go between the two sets using f and g. possibly ending at some limit element or not.
2025-02-26 10:45:48 +0100zmt01(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 10:45:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> if f and g are continuous and bijective, then they are homeomorphisms, for example
2025-02-26 10:45:55 +0100 <cheater> i think that's interesting enough.
2025-02-26 10:46:18 +0100 <cheater> no, they have no such property as stated
2025-02-26 10:47:02 +0100tromp(~textual@2a02:a210:cba:8500:b949:287e:6bbd:873b)
2025-02-26 10:48:39 +0100 <cheater> if no such thing is described then i shall coin that as a speculative function pair (or tuple for a more complex graph)
2025-02-26 10:49:13 +0100 <tomsmeding> you can call it a "back-and-forth"
2025-02-26 10:51:04 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 10:51:20 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-02-26 10:52:11 +0100 <cheater> that sounds like something out of control theory.
2025-02-26 10:54:20 +0100 <[exa]> cheater: you can just say that compositions of f and g are total
2025-02-26 10:54:37 +0100 <cheater> i don't like puzzle definitions
2025-02-26 10:54:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's not quite the same statement, is it?
2025-02-26 10:55:40 +0100 <[exa]> the totality of the composition implies exactly the domain-is-a-superset property that was requested, and I just run it in both directions
2025-02-26 10:55:55 +0100 <[exa]> so I'd say it's the same
2025-02-26 10:55:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> depends on what compositions you mean when you say "compositions of f and g"
2025-02-26 10:56:17 +0100 <tomsmeding> if it's just "f . g", then it's weaker; if you also include "f . f", then it's stronger
2025-02-26 10:57:10 +0100 <[exa]> f.f doesn't type
2025-02-26 10:57:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> but if you already have the types of f and g, there's nothing more to specify!
2025-02-26 10:57:26 +0100 <[exa]> ah well okay in math that could cause issues, I see
2025-02-26 10:58:01 +0100 <[exa]> anyway yeah, I'd say the original definiton would need a bit more of a spirit to it to actually spawn a useful name
2025-02-26 10:59:04 +0100 <Leary> I'm still not sure what the original statement is supposed to be. f and g are partial functions with opposite co/domains and the property that each is total on the other's range?
2025-02-26 10:59:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/concept+with+an+attitude
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2025-02-26 11:01:12 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f8044b147bcd5cee5e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 11:02:38 +0100 <[exa]> oh that's a nice site.
2025-02-26 11:04:00 +0100acidsys(~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 11:04:44 +0100 <cheater> you don't know about ncatlab?
2025-02-26 11:04:59 +0100 <cheater> anyways i think the idea of being able to bounce back and forth an infinite amount of times is pretty interesting
2025-02-26 11:05:44 +0100 <cheater> it can easily create congruences, for example
2025-02-26 11:05:47 +0100 <cheater> and a topology
2025-02-26 11:06:11 +0100 <cheater> and can be continuated
2025-02-26 11:06:18 +0100 <cheater> even smoothly so
2025-02-26 11:09:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> I'd personally expect that as soon as that bouncing has any kind of _property_ (it converges, or you end up where you started, ...) then it _does_ have a name
2025-02-26 11:09:54 +0100 <ames> just don't listen to nlab when it comes to type theory
2025-02-26 11:10:29 +0100ski(~ski@remote11.chalmers.se) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 11:10:40 +0100 <ames> it ranges from subtly incorrect and extra verbose to complete and utter bullshit
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2025-02-26 11:14:06 +0100ski(~ski@remote11.chalmers.se)
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2025-02-26 11:39:03 +0100 <ncf> cheater: it's just a pair of functions. all functions are total unless stated otherwise, in mathematics
2025-02-26 11:40:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-02-26 11:48:10 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:17f4:b7d4:84ba:3a30)
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2025-02-26 11:57:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> @tell Athas You may get better performance with 'ad' if you use Numeric.AD.Double _and_ enable the +ffi flag
2025-02-26 11:57:04 +0100 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2025-02-26 11:57:36 +0100 <Athas> tomsmeding: I do use Numeric.AD.Double, but what does +ffi do?
2025-02-26 11:57:52 +0100 <tomsmeding> Athas: it switches to taping in C, instead of in haskell
2025-02-26 11:58:40 +0100 <Athas> Well, that ought to make a difference. Now to see if I remember how to set cabal flags.
2025-02-26 11:59:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> `constraints: ad +ffi` in cabal.project
2025-02-26 11:59:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> I wonder why this flag is not enabled by default
2025-02-26 12:00:02 +0100 <Athas> Flags are the worst part of the Hackage ecosystem.
2025-02-26 12:00:25 +0100 <Athas> Well, let's see.
2025-02-26 12:01:02 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-02-26 12:46:27 +0100 <Athas> tomsmeding: I don't see any difference, but perhaps I am holding it wrong.
2025-02-26 12:46:39 +0100LainExperiments(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) LainExperiments
2025-02-26 12:48:28 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
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2025-02-26 12:50:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> Athas: if you `nm` your executable, does it reference `tape_backPropagate`?
2025-02-26 12:50:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> that distinguishes between an ad +ffi and an ad -ffi build for me
2025-02-26 12:51:19 +0100 <Athas> It does not.
2025-02-26 12:51:42 +0100 <Athas> I assume cabal's logic for recompiling dependencies on flag changes is sound, right?
2025-02-26 12:51:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> it worked for me!
2025-02-26 12:52:10 +0100LainExperiments2(~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-02-26 12:52:29 +0100 <Athas> And 'constraints: ad +ffi' in my cabal.project is enough?
2025-02-26 12:52:30 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 12:53:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> well, I put a newline and an indent after the `:`, but otherwise, yes, that's exactly what I did
2025-02-26 12:53:53 +0100 <Athas> Oh, this is interesting. I don't see tape_backPropagate when I use Numeric.AD.Double in my kmeans implementation, but I do see it when I use it for the dummy 'hello' benchmark.
2025-02-26 12:54:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> Athas: aren't you doing reverse-then-forward in kmeans? i.e. your reverse mode is not actually on Doubles, but on dual numbers?
2025-02-26 12:54:36 +0100Googulator78(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0c81-ad7c-ac56-196b-c9a2.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-02-26 12:54:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2025-02-26 12:54:51 +0100 <Athas> tomsmeding: yes, but I'm just using a single exported function from Numeric.AD.Double.
2025-02-26 12:54:58 +0100Googulator78(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0c81-ad7c-ac56-196b-c9a2.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-02-26 12:54:58 +0100 <tomsmeding> the whole point of Numeric.AD.Double is that it optimises the `Reverse s Double` case
2025-02-26 12:55:02 +0100 <Athas> But now I have an interesting result. Do you remember I had a version that "ought" to be faster, but wasn't?
2025-02-26 12:55:13 +0100 <tomsmeding> something something hessian jacobian product?
2025-02-26 12:55:14 +0100 <Athas> When I use that version, I do see significant speedup with +ffi.
2025-02-26 12:55:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> interesting!
2025-02-26 12:55:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> What function from Numeric.AD.Double aer you using in the version that doesn't get vaster?
2025-02-26 12:55:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> *faster
2025-02-26 12:55:49 +0100 <Athas> The commented-out code seems to perform quite OK now: https://github.com/gradbench/gradbench/blob/main/tools/haskell/src/GradBench/KMeans.hs#L78-L95
2025-02-26 12:55:56 +0100 <Athas> We'll see if the memory issue has also been solved.
2025-02-26 12:56:26 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh I guess `hessian'`
2025-02-26 12:57:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> the FFI code is specifically for ReverseDouble; I guess `Reverse s SparseDouble` only benefits from being specialised to Double in Haskell-land, not fro mthe FFI code
2025-02-26 12:57:36 +0100 <tomsmeding> so this seems consistent, to me
2025-02-26 12:57:49 +0100 <Athas> Memory usage isn't promising.
2025-02-26 12:57:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> except that hessianProduct also doesn't use ReverseDouble!
2025-02-26 12:58:06 +0100 <Athas> Yeah, it OOM'ed again.
2025-02-26 12:58:16 +0100 <Athas> But it's certainly a lot faster.
2025-02-26 12:58:34 +0100 <Athas> A little more than 2x.
2025-02-26 12:59:57 +0100 <Athas> If gradbench handled the OOM a little more gracefully, then I'd prefer this solution. It looks nice.
2025-02-26 13:05:49 +0100 <Hecate> yo
2025-02-26 13:05:57 +0100 <Hecate> can hlint apply rules to type signatures?
2025-02-26 13:05:58 +0100 <Hecate> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskellquestions/comments/1iylzer/is_it_possible_to_make_hlint_rules_for_…
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2025-02-26 17:27:36 +0100 <ski> cheater : "they are total on sets that contain each other's codomains" -- no. `Y' *is* the codomain of `f', and `X' *is* the codomain of `g'. doesn't matter whether every element of those sets are "hit" by the respective functions
2025-02-26 17:28:06 +0100 <cheater> huh?
2025-02-26 17:28:44 +0100 <ski> if you say `f : X -> Y', then `Y' is the codomain of `f'
2025-02-26 17:29:12 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.5.1)
2025-02-26 17:29:38 +0100 <ski> so, claiming that `g : Y -> X' is total on a set that contains the codomain of `f' means that `g' is total on a set which contains `Y'. iow, `g' is just a total function, no need to complicate the phrasing
2025-02-26 17:30:33 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 17:30:42 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f80c89649a85ed7ab43.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 17:31:07 +0100 <ski> but presumably you didn't mean it like that, and so you likely meant to say "range" or "image", instead of "codomain". the range of `f' (or the image of `f' (on `X')) is the subset of the codomain `Y', that is actually "hit" by `f', the subset of values that you can actually obtain as outputs
2025-02-26 17:31:39 +0100 <cheater> ok, yeah
2025-02-26 17:32:42 +0100jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:2358:c700:f051:395a:5b5:8278) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-02-26 17:32:43 +0100 <ski> and then you meant to claim that the partial function `g : Y -> X' was total on this subset of `Y' (which can be written `Img(f)', or `f[X]', or `exists_f X')
2025-02-26 17:33:23 +0100tomsmedingwould prefer a symbol other than `->' for a partial function
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2025-02-26 18:38:22 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net) Katarushisu
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2025-02-26 18:46:12 +0100driib318(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) driib
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2025-02-26 18:59:06 +0100hseg(~gesh@46.120.20.40) hseg
2025-02-26 19:01:02 +0100 <hseg> I'm working on https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/2332, and the folks at #linux tell me the correct fallback to a missing terminfo entry in my case is to explicitly call ioctl. Other than https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ioctl which seems pretty much abandoned, is there another package wrapping the ioctl system call?
2025-02-26 19:03:13 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 19:04:51 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2025-02-26 19:06:48 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-02-26 19:07:23 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 19:07:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Thanks for looking at that @hseg. I don't know the answer, but it would need to be installable on windows also to avoid complicating packaging.
2025-02-26 19:08:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <sm> Are you considering something more fancy than just catching the setupTermFromEnv error ?
2025-02-26 19:09:15 +0100 <hseg> Was going to just catch and work with TERM=dumb, but was worrying that was standards-incorrect
2025-02-26 19:09:45 +0100 <hseg> People on #linux recommended using the TIOCGWINSZ ioctl as a fallback instead
2025-02-26 19:10:02 +0100 <hseg> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/terminal-size appears to be the most recent package supporting this, and it supports windows!
2025-02-26 19:10:14 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 19:10:19 +0100 <geekosaur> ioctl is kind of a nightmare to work with, you really want to wrap the POSIX higher level routines — but the terminal width and height appear to not be POSIX
2025-02-26 19:10:42 +0100 <EvanR> tomsmeding, right arrow but it fades out from black ink to nothing as you go right
2025-02-26 19:12:06 +0100 <EvanR> right arrow with a hazard badge
2025-02-26 19:12:08 +0100 <dolio> Often it's an arrow with only the top point.
2025-02-26 19:12:22 +0100Everything(~Everythin@46-133-48-141.mobile.vf-ua.net) Everything
2025-02-26 19:12:41 +0100 <EvanR> ⇀
2025-02-26 19:12:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> Y 15-14> X
2025-02-26 19:12:50 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-02-26 19:13:23 +0100 <dolio> ⇀
2025-02-26 19:13:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> (for best effect, view on a dark terminal)
2025-02-26 19:13:43 +0100 <EvanR> a right arrow that forks, one way goes to the target type, the other way doesn't
2025-02-26 19:14:15 +0100 <hseg> geekosaur: Right -- if you look at the ticket I'm working on, this is a fallback for if the terminfo entry is absent
2025-02-26 19:14:41 +0100 <geekosaur> yes, I started from the ticket
2025-02-26 19:15:08 +0100 <mauke> terminfo size entries are kinda useless unless you're dealing with an actual terminal, which no one does
2025-02-26 19:15:38 +0100 <geekosaur> I was commenting on the recommendation to use `ioctl`; if you do that, you should FFI to it directly because a generalized ioctl binding is pretty much impossible (the third type depends on the value of the second parameter)
2025-02-26 19:16:24 +0100califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-02-26 19:16:45 +0100 <hseg> right -- the code I'm considering including FFIs to it and only exposes it already partially applied in its second parameter
2025-02-26 19:16:51 +0100 <hseg> https://github.com/biegunka/terminal-size/blob/master/src/System/Console/Terminal/Posix.hsc
2025-02-26 19:17:18 +0100 <hseg> AFAICT, it looks sensible
2025-02-26 19:17:59 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2025-02-26 19:18:40 +0100 <mauke> yeah, needs capi if you don't want to write a C wrapper
2025-02-26 19:19:05 +0100 <mauke> oh hey, that's my alignment macro! I invented that
2025-02-26 19:19:15 +0100 <hseg> I see the package is used by darcs and idris, loos like a safe dependency
2025-02-26 19:19:32 +0100 <hseg> what does that alignment macro do?
2025-02-26 19:20:08 +0100 <mauke> computes the required alignment of a given type (by asking the C compiler)
2025-02-26 19:20:17 +0100 <mauke> nowadays it's built into hsc2hs, I believe
2025-02-26 19:20:51 +0100 <hseg> yeah, the #alignment macro, looking at the hsc2hs docs
2025-02-26 19:22:32 +0100 <mauke> the idea is to declare a struct with a char as its first member (which throws off the alignment of the second member) and then check how much padding the C compiler inserted before the second member
2025-02-26 19:22:32 +0100tv(~tv@user/tv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-02-26 19:23:46 +0100 <c_wraith> I thought compilers were allowed to re-order members
2025-02-26 19:23:54 +0100 <mauke> nope
2025-02-26 19:24:37 +0100califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2025-02-26 19:24:37 +0100 <mauke> C++ compilers are allowed to re-order segments separated by visibility markers, but that's it
2025-02-26 19:24:43 +0100 <c_wraith> ah. Silly language. Make no guarantees about their relative offsets, but require them to be in order.
2025-02-26 19:24:51 +0100 <mauke> (public:, private:, protected:)
2025-02-26 19:25:33 +0100 <dolio> They need to be in order because you're allowed to do a rudimentary sort of subtyping on structs, I think.
2025-02-26 19:25:44 +0100 <mauke> yes, the "common prefix" hack
2025-02-26 19:26:22 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 19:26:47 +0100 <dolio> I guess it's possible you could accomplish that while doing some reordering, but it'd be pretty complicated to pull off.
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2025-02-26 19:37:28 +0100Everything(~Everythin@46-133-48-141.mobile.vf-ua.net) Everything
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2025-02-26 19:40:58 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
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2025-02-26 19:53:47 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) lxsameer
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2025-02-26 19:56:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> dolio: surely you could use all possible prefixes of a struct? Then the ordering ends up fixed
2025-02-26 19:57:28 +0100 <dolio> I don't know.
2025-02-26 19:59:06 +0100haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager
2025-02-26 19:59:06 +0100ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2025-02-26 19:59:38 +0100 <dolio> Certainly if you don't do something else tricky, that's true.
2025-02-26 19:59:42 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-02-26 20:01:07 +0100 <dolio> I once read about an OCaml implementation using the statically available type information to calculate flat array representations of every 'object' type, even though you can use them as arbitrary subtypes.
2025-02-26 20:01:26 +0100 <tomsmeding> that would need to be a full-program transformation
2025-02-26 20:01:33 +0100 <dolio> Yeah.
2025-02-26 20:01:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> C compilers are conventionally very translation-unit-oriented :)
2025-02-26 20:01:49 +0100 <dolio> I didn't say it was easy. :þ
2025-02-26 20:01:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> though LTO exists
2025-02-26 20:02:01 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-02-26 20:02:47 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2025-02-26 20:03:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> if you can see all code, then you can indeed pull such tricks. But given that this is C, as soon as you pull in other (already-compiled) libraries and give them references to your structs _somehow_, or if you include some assembly code, or if you muck with pointers in the right way, I'd expect it gets very hard to change the encoding of structs
2025-02-26 20:03:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's expected that you can compile some code to a shared library with compiler X, then link that into some other C code also compiled with X, and have the structs be compatible
2025-02-26 20:03:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> so if the compiler reorders things, it'll have to do so deterministically and based only (I think?) on the struct definition itself
2025-02-26 20:04:17 +0100 <tomsmeding> and perhaps that other code in the shared library can use prefixes of _your_ structs!
2025-02-26 20:04:55 +0100 <tomsmeding> Maybe some of this is not possible in "standard C" and only in conventional C.
2025-02-26 20:05:27 +0100 <dolio> Well, yeah, I'm not exactly sure what all you can get away with within the standard.
2025-02-26 20:05:58 +0100 <tomsmeding> if things are as usual in C land, then probably very little
2025-02-26 20:06:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> and simultaneously more than you'd like. :P
2025-02-26 20:06:30 +0100 <geekosaur> there is also what is exposed in object files and include files, which is not all that the original compiler knows and in particular doesn't reveal reorderings very well
2025-02-26 20:06:53 +0100 <geekosaur> (GHC gets around this by carrying extra information in `.hi` files)
2025-02-26 20:07:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> (in fact it doesn't reveal reorderings _at all_. :P)
2025-02-26 20:09:13 +0100 <geekosaur> I think it can be inferred from pointers, presuming such exist
2025-02-26 20:09:27 +0100 <geekosaur> but that means the inker needs to be a lot smarter
2025-02-26 20:10:33 +0100 <TMA> C standard leaves many things unspecified. A conforming implementation must make the same struct that is used in different compilation units translate in a way that makes both compilation units able to access it.
2025-02-26 20:10:40 +0100 <geekosaur> in fact, there's a decent number of restrictions in Haskell (GHC or otherwise) which come from "we can't teach the linker how Haskell works"
2025-02-26 20:13:13 +0100 <TMA> It also needs to make two structs that share some prefix of the fields be compatible. (So struct A { int * p; char c; int i; double d; } and struct B { int * p; char c; int i; char * s; } need to share the memory locations od p, c and i;)
2025-02-26 20:13:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> by induction, that second requirement fixes the ordering completely
2025-02-26 20:14:34 +0100 <TMA> C standard does not prescribe the conforming implementation ("compiler") to be interoperable with any other compiler, or even with itself with a different set of flags/options.
2025-02-26 20:15:59 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2025-02-26 20:17:06 +0100 <monochrom> I am too lazy to check the C standard. But I want to point out that there is one x86 ABI standard and one x64 ABI standard that C compilers targetting those platforms will comply to, and the two ABI standards are very specific about structs, function call arguments, etc., so that various C compilers, nay, various languages, can interoperate when they are on the same platform.
2025-02-26 20:17:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> those ABIs say something about _structs_?
2025-02-26 20:17:59 +0100 <TMA> for example a struct S { char c1; int i; char c2; } s; might be organized such that offsetof(struct S, c1) == 0, offsetof(struct S, i) == 4, offsetof(struct S, c2) == 1
2025-02-26 20:18:19 +0100 <TMA> or it might be offsetof(struct S, c1) == 0, offsetof(struct S, i) == 4, offsetof(struct S, c2) == 8
2025-02-26 20:18:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh fair
2025-02-26 20:19:06 +0100 <TMA> or even offsetof(struct S, c1) == 0, offsetof(struct S, i) == 1, offsetof(struct S, c2) == 5
2025-02-26 20:19:44 +0100 <TMA> the requirement says only "be consistent when there are multiple compilation units"
2025-02-26 20:19:45 +0100Smiles(uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles
2025-02-26 20:21:41 +0100 <TMA> tomsmeding: some ABI prescribe layout of structs. others don't
2025-02-26 20:23:11 +0100 <TMA> monochrom: if only that was so straightforward. there are multiple ABI standards for x86 and x86_64
2025-02-26 20:23:40 +0100 <monochrom> yikes oh well heh
2025-02-26 20:23:49 +0100 <monochrom> I guess there is an xkcd for that.
2025-02-26 20:24:05 +0100 <TMA> on linux they use a derivative of the Itanium ABI
2025-02-26 20:24:19 +0100 <TMA> on Windows Microsoft uses its own
2025-02-26 20:24:47 +0100 <TMA> clang and gcc use somewhat different ABI for C++
2025-02-26 20:24:57 +0100 <TMA> and the list goes on and on and on
2025-02-26 20:26:24 +0100 <EvanR> dolio, the rudimentary subtyping with structs isn't actually guaranteed to work if all you have is a C standard
2025-02-26 20:26:35 +0100 <EvanR> it's a folk practice
2025-02-26 20:26:43 +0100 <dolio> No, that part is in there, I'm pretty sure.
2025-02-26 20:26:57 +0100 <EvanR> I was also pretty sure xD
2025-02-26 20:27:03 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-02-26 20:27:15 +0100 <dolio> I don't really feel like finding it, though.
2025-02-26 20:28:03 +0100 <EvanR> casting a pointer to an incompatible type is undefined behavior
2025-02-26 20:28:43 +0100 <EvanR> it might seem intuitive that structs which differ by being a prefix of another is compatible but its not
2025-02-26 20:29:33 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah I think I saw the Linux Itanium-based one.
2025-02-26 20:33:11 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Tuplanolla
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2025-02-26 20:44:46 +0100 <dolio> I don't know if you can do it with pointers. But you can put all the structs with the same prefix in a union, and access the members of the prefix via any of the union disjuncts.
2025-02-26 20:45:37 +0100 <dolio> Normally if you access the portion of a union that wasn't used to build it, it's undefined behavior, but there's special dispensation for structs.
2025-02-26 20:47:29 +0100tccq(~user@user/tccq) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-02-26 20:50:28 +0100 <EvanR> yes unions work
2025-02-26 20:51:46 +0100 <EvanR> I thought this was this "hope my struct defined the same way for the first 16 bytes" will work if pointer to it is casted, which is use in the sockets API
2025-02-26 20:52:29 +0100 <dolio> Yeah, I can't find that, so I guess that doesn't work. You have to put all your structures in a union.
2025-02-26 20:53:52 +0100 <dolio> Or use the variable length array at the end of a struct or something.
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2025-02-26 21:00:43 +0100caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) caconym
2025-02-26 21:01:16 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:01:50 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) chiselfuse
2025-02-26 21:04:18 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:6ff3:8389:b901:6363) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-02-26 21:05:24 +0100hseg(~gesh@46.120.20.40) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:09:01 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:10:28 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:12:05 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:6ff3:8389:b901:6363) hgolden
2025-02-26 21:12:20 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-02-26 21:17:10 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) justsomeguy
2025-02-26 21:21:45 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 21:22:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 21:25:54 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:31:34 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2025-02-26 21:33:00 +0100ft(~ft@p3e9bc68d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2025-02-26 21:37:27 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2025-02-26 21:38:49 +0100Guest0(~Guest0@2a00:20:0:8685:7afd:8c7b:235a:df44)
2025-02-26 21:39:20 +0100Guest0(~Guest0@2a00:20:0:8685:7afd:8c7b:235a:df44) (Client Quit)
2025-02-26 21:40:56 +0100todi(~todi@p57803331.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) todi
2025-02-26 21:57:15 +0100Everything(~Everythin@46-133-48-141.mobile.vf-ua.net) (Quit: leaving)
2025-02-26 21:58:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 21:59:15 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:07:49 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 22:09:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 22:11:52 +0100meooow(~meooow@2400:6180:100:d0::ad9:e001) (Quit: q)
2025-02-26 22:12:03 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:12:59 +0100codolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) dolio
2025-02-26 22:13:11 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2025-02-26 22:14:07 +0100meooow(~meooow@2400:6180:100:d0::ad9:e001) meooow
2025-02-26 22:14:49 +0100dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-02-26 22:16:16 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) (Quit: Bye!)
2025-02-26 22:16:44 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
2025-02-26 22:17:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:17:40 +0100zungi(~tory@user/andrewchawk) andrewchawk
2025-02-26 22:20:00 +0100remedan(~remedan@ip-62-245-108-153.bb.vodafone.cz) remedan
2025-02-26 22:25:41 +0100jespada(~jespada@2800:a4:230f:300:5891:d568:1db3:6726) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2025-02-26 22:28:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 22:32:05 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-02-26 22:32:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:40:24 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:41:32 +0100yegorc(~yegorc@user/yegorc) yegorc
2025-02-26 22:42:04 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
2025-02-26 22:43:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 22:43:39 +0100forell(~forell@user/forell) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:48:01 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:49:41 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) (Quit: ash3en)
2025-02-26 22:50:34 +0100Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2025-02-26 22:51:06 +0100Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:54:13 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-02-26 22:58:20 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 22:58:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-02-26 23:03:30 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-02-26 23:05:08 +0100DigitteknohippieDigit
2025-02-26 23:10:20 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square) Square
2025-02-26 23:13:05 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-02-26 23:13:14 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-02-26 23:14:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn