| 2025-01-31 00:04:43 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-01-31 00:06:53 +0100 | <glguy> | My favorite Data. misuse is Data.Kind |
| 2025-01-31 00:07:03 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (re mechanisms to resolve ambiguity: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html#exte… ) |
| 2025-01-31 00:09:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 00:10:58 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Relatedly https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/packages.html#package-thinning-and-renam… |
| 2025-01-31 00:11:36 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Unsure how controllable that is via cabal-install |
| 2025-01-31 00:12:28 +0100 | <geekosaur> | "mixins" should handle both |
| 2025-01-31 00:12:53 +0100 | eL_Bart0 | (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:13:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:14:40 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-01-31 00:14:57 +0100 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:18:50 +0100 | <dminuoso> | A while ago transformers has received these nice diagrams to visualize what the respective transformers do: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.6.1.2/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Writer-CPS.html |
| 2025-01-31 00:19:06 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:19:09 +0100 | <dminuoso> | We're just missing a diagram for Cont. Cant be that hard, right? :-) |
| 2025-01-31 00:19:28 +0100 | <geekosaur> | i,i "Cont be that hard" |
| 2025-01-31 00:19:37 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Heh. |
| 2025-01-31 00:21:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell is famous for laissez faire programming. Terrible I'm outta here |
| 2025-01-31 00:21:02 +0100 | <int-e> | please pass all the details to `const "I don't want to hear it."` |
| 2025-01-31 00:21:15 +0100 | <EvanR> | looking for a language for more bondage and discipline |
| 2025-01-31 00:22:30 +0100 | <geekosaur> | surely there's an appropriate DT language |
| 2025-01-31 00:23:03 +0100 | rstromlund | (~user@user/rstromlund) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:24:45 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 00:28:15 +0100 | Smiles | (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) Smiles |
| 2025-01-31 00:31:37 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:31:59 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-31 00:32:46 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager |
| 2025-01-31 00:32:46 +0100 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2025-01-31 00:35:39 +0100 | <monochrom> | You know what, I have to understand Reader and Writer first before I understand those two diagrams. |
| 2025-01-31 00:35:57 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@ai096095.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:36:07 +0100 | <monochrom> | And generally I have to understand bind first. |
| 2025-01-31 00:37:39 +0100 | <monochrom> | But State is missing a diagram and that's a well-known diagram. |
| 2025-01-31 00:38:06 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:704:c9bd:a645:9b1d) |
| 2025-01-31 00:38:22 +0100 | <monochrom> | Conjecture: Such a diagram exists iff the monad is of an algebraic effect. Cont is not an algebraic effect. |
| 2025-01-31 00:42:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 00:42:51 +0100 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:44:14 +0100 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@syn-184-054-105-097.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2025-01-31 00:46:35 +0100 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:47:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 00:49:59 +0100 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) |
| 2025-01-31 00:52:02 +0100 | <euouae> | <https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_monads/State> "A monad is sometimes described as providing a value in a context." -- this is very close to what I was thinking when I said monads are like state machines |
| 2025-01-31 00:54:15 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Monads are an abstract interface. |
| 2025-01-31 00:54:36 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Comparing them to anything concrete is, at best, just likening it to that specific instance, but that prevents you from seeing what monad is about. |
| 2025-01-31 00:54:52 +0100 | <int-e> | now I want a burrito |
| 2025-01-31 00:55:16 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 00:57:25 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: My best recommendation is to just not worry about what Monad means at all. `IO` is about side effects. `[]` is about lists. `Maybe` is about failure. `Either A` is about exceptions. Each example is trivial to explain to any beginner |
| 2025-01-31 00:58:09 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Monad is just observing that all of these things have some pattern and laws in common. There's not really any inherent meaning to it |
| 2025-01-31 00:58:40 +0100 | <dminuoso> | And if people stop trying to attach meaning to that word `Monad`, they get on learning Haskell much faster. |
| 2025-01-31 00:58:45 +0100 | <monochrom> | I do not mind specific instances that may limit one's imagination because it is part of the learning process. |
| 2025-01-31 00:59:48 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:00:31 +0100 | rstromlund | (~user@user/rstromlund) rstromlund |
| 2025-01-31 01:00:41 +0100 | <monochrom> | Consider how "numbers" are taught beginning with natural numbers and, eventually, if you go to math grad school, ending with algebraic number fields. Not the other way round. |
| 2025-01-31 01:01:00 +0100 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Sure, but that particular wikibooks article is not about promoting any learning process. |
| 2025-01-31 01:01:22 +0100 | <dminuoso> | If Monad tutorials started with just proclamining `Monads are just IO`, this would be a feasible strategy. |
| 2025-01-31 01:01:44 +0100 | <dminuoso> | As you could gradually introduce more instances and different "flavours" |
| 2025-01-31 01:02:54 +0100 | <monochrom> | That one I agree with you. It's the equivalent of a biology tutorial saying "natural selection is described as survival of fittest" |
| 2025-01-31 01:04:03 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee |
| 2025-01-31 01:05:18 +0100 | rstromlund | (~user@user/rstromlund) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:08:34 +0100 | alfiee | (~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:08:58 +0100 | <euouae> | dminuoso: I'm not trying to summarize all monads or anything of the short, just to adopt a mental mode |
| 2025-01-31 01:10:04 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Fair enough. |
| 2025-01-31 01:10:25 +0100 | <euouae> | obviously it's both tiresome to manually typecheck everything when reading code & provides no intuition. the megaparsec code I saw earlier with a bunch of >>= inside a do was clear in what it was doing: it was combining a bunch of parser combinators, starting from some initial string-to-be-parsed, and outputted either a parsed data structure or parser error |
| 2025-01-31 01:10:34 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The mental model I have settled on over the years is that `Monads` model sequencing. |
| 2025-01-31 01:10:39 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 01:10:43 +0100 | <euouae> | and it sort of occurred to me that a lot of uses of do/>>= are doing basically stuff like that |
| 2025-01-31 01:11:39 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Though Im a flexible, and I have some alternate intuitions that I can switch to depending on the problem. |
| 2025-01-31 01:12:02 +0100 | <euouae> | well sure, adopting just one is good enough for me. I'll adopt more if the need arises |
| 2025-01-31 01:12:10 +0100 | down200 | (~down200@shell.lug.mtu.edu) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:12:50 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: [] seems to breaks a state machine viewpoint. |
| 2025-01-31 01:13:12 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The monad instance of [] roughly models non-determinism (with a bit of squinting) |
| 2025-01-31 01:13:19 +0100 | <euouae> | if you can elaborate? |
| 2025-01-31 01:13:27 +0100 | monochrm | (trebla@216.138.220.146) |
| 2025-01-31 01:14:31 +0100 | <dminuoso> | (I say squinting because lists are not sets and have a bit more structure) |
| 2025-01-31 01:15:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:15:24 +0100 | monochrom | (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-01-31 01:15:24 +0100 | monochrm | monochrom |
| 2025-01-31 01:15:52 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so, the list monad models a computation that gives you all possible solutions, whereas a Maybe version of the same computation gives you at most one solution (and can be thought of as "first solution, if any") |
| 2025-01-31 01:17:35 +0100 | down200 | (~down200@shell.lug.mtu.edu) down200 |
| 2025-01-31 01:18:11 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Say if we imagine a chess computer, we could think of [move1, move2, move3, move4] as not a collection of possibilities, but rather some non-deterministic choice of *one* move. |
| 2025-01-31 01:18:24 +0100 | ec | (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) ec |
| 2025-01-31 01:18:34 +0100 | <dminuoso> | And >>= lets you take a further non-determistic choice |
| 2025-01-31 01:19:09 +0100 | <euouae> | Here's how lists are state machines: No input variable, only state; its output is the state. They compose funkily, but still. |
| 2025-01-31 01:19:23 +0100 | <geekosaur> | as dminuoso said, it's acting as a "poor man's set" (for technical reasons we can't actually make a Set a Monad); all the answers are equally ranked, their position in the list isn't relevant |
| 2025-01-31 01:19:52 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: But its that *funkily* behavior that is the core essence of that instance. |
| 2025-01-31 01:20:02 +0100 | <euouae> | It is no less a state machine however |
| 2025-01-31 01:20:08 +0100 | <euouae> | a composable state machine, as I said above |
| 2025-01-31 01:20:41 +0100 | <euouae> | anyway, it's been said that everything can be considered a state machine, it's just a mental mode I have... I'm just glad I put it to some test and it didn't immediately collapse |
| 2025-01-31 01:20:44 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2025-01-31 01:21:37 +0100 | <dminuoso> | I mean if you insist on that state machine model, perhaps you could think of it as a non-deterministic state machine (along the lines of an NFA) |
| 2025-01-31 01:22:08 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure about the exact mental gymnastics required to see the state machine, but thats probably because Im flexed very differently |
| 2025-01-31 01:23:01 +0100 | geekosaur | wonders if it's the same viewpoint used with the comonad |
| 2025-01-31 01:23:07 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: So here's why your state machine logic does not quite work out: |
| 2025-01-31 01:23:18 +0100 | <euouae> | As long as I can squeeze real-world results from my intuition I'm not too bothered by its rough edges |
| 2025-01-31 01:23:24 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: `do x <- [1,2,3]; ...` -> how do you obtain the state? |
| 2025-01-31 01:24:01 +0100 | <dminuoso> | The non-determinism approach has the benefit of accurately modelling non-deterministic algorithms. |
| 2025-01-31 01:24:57 +0100 | <dminuoso> | In the above example, `x` represents some non-deterministic choice of [1,2,3] |
| 2025-01-31 01:25:01 +0100 | <euouae> | In `do x <- [1,2,3];` you're getting a slice of that funky composability |
| 2025-01-31 01:25:24 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: But Im asking about where that state machine is. What's the state here? |
| 2025-01-31 01:25:38 +0100 | <euouae> | now x <- [1,1,1] does not have enough information for you to distinguish one 1 from another 1, even though they're positionally different |
| 2025-01-31 01:26:01 +0100 | <euouae> | I think I imagine state different from State or whatever |
| 2025-01-31 01:26:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-31 01:26:11 +0100 | <euouae> | The state is [1,2,3] |
| 2025-01-31 01:26:41 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Thats only true in the sense that the program has to store [1,2,3], but that could be said about *any* computation of anything. |
| 2025-01-31 01:27:03 +0100 | <dminuoso> | euouae: If we want to derive meaning of Monad, we must constrain to its interface |