| 2025-01-18 00:00:01 +0100 | <EvanR> | countable and constructible is certainly not the same thing |
| 2025-01-18 00:00:19 +0100 | <monochrom> | And on second thought, I am not even sure I can take credit. My purpose was to make a newtype to allow the like of (\x -> x x), and the error message literally inspires that definition! |
| 2025-01-18 00:00:41 +0100 | <EvanR> | formal languages come with grammar rules which limit you to a countable number of sentences |
| 2025-01-18 00:00:45 +0100 | <monochrom> | "I thank GHC for suggesting this newtype." |
| 2025-01-18 00:00:52 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell being an example of one |
| 2025-01-18 00:01:18 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 00:01:38 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> right, e.g. a language with the judgment 'x is a value of type Real Number' does not have countably many statements I think |
| 2025-01-18 00:02:04 +0100 | <EvanR> | that's mixing concepts |
| 2025-01-18 00:02:23 +0100 | <EvanR> | jumping to another level of abstraction, beyond the syntax |
| 2025-01-18 00:02:29 +0100 | paul_j | (~user@8.190.187.81.in-addr.arpa) (Quit: Asta la vista) |
| 2025-01-18 00:02:47 +0100 | <monochrom> | We know of at least two theories (aka models) of programming, and they disagree on countability as well as other things. The moral is that you choose a theory to suit a purpose, not for Platonic "absolute" "truth". |
| 2025-01-18 00:02:56 +0100 | <EvanR> | as far as real numbers go it's a pretty nutty way to specify one xD |
| 2025-01-18 00:03:02 +0100 | <EvanR> | usually you need a language for that |
| 2025-01-18 00:03:19 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> well if a theory is a set of axioms and derivable sentences, then we should admit such a language (the one having the judgment 'x is a value of type Real Number') |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | there are countably many values of IEEE float or double, though. you're limited to some form of "computable reals" on any physical computer |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:12 +0100 | <EvanR> | is "x" there a metavariable or literally x |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:26 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: the computable reals are embeddable in the naturals! |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:37 +0100 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:38 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:42 +0100 | <geekosaur> | hence are countable |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:43 +0100 | <monochrom> | And it is also related to the deal with real numbers, set theory, everything. There are countable models of ZFC, and yet there are also uncountable sets. |
| 2025-01-18 00:04:59 +0100 | <EvanR> | also there's a difference between computable real and algorithmic real |
| 2025-01-18 00:05:13 +0100 | <EvanR> | monochrom, yes that's what I was getting at |
| 2025-01-18 00:05:15 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-01-18 00:05:34 +0100 | <EvanR> | uncountable is necessarily semantic |
| 2025-01-18 00:05:55 +0100 | <monochrom> | You can choose a different level of abstraction (aka model) you get a different conclusion. This is supposed to be normal. |
| 2025-01-18 00:08:12 +0100 | <monochrom> | I think both are necessarily semantic. But then that's a tautology. You need to choose a semantic (aka model again) before you can argue anything. |
| 2025-01-18 00:08:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | sometimes something can be said about any possible semantics |
| 2025-01-18 00:08:56 +0100 | <EvanR> | because you're really talking about the syntax |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:12 +0100 | <EvanR> | or the logic of how you put the sentences together |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:22 +0100 | <EvanR> | and never really refer to any meaning |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:35 +0100 | <EvanR> | which happens in haskell sometimes |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:51 +0100 | <monochrom> | In particular if you think that you are using merely syntax trees for your argument, then you are choosing the Herbrand model, therefore it's a model, therefore it's also a semantics! There is no escape from arguing semantics |
| 2025-01-18 00:09:59 +0100 | <EvanR> | when you're dealing with raw data, no IO |
| 2025-01-18 00:10:24 +0100 | <EvanR> | Herbrand |
| 2025-01-18 00:10:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | I'll have to look that up and hope it's not ridiculously trivial lol |
| 2025-01-18 00:10:48 +0100 | <monochrom> | "It's semantics all the way down" >:) |
| 2025-01-18 00:11:08 +0100 | <monochrom> | It is fairly trivial. It's literally the set of ASTs. |
| 2025-01-18 00:11:52 +0100 | <monochrom> | So for example if you argue that programs are countable, you are just reminding us that the Herbrand model is countable. |
| 2025-01-18 00:12:16 +0100 | <monochrom> | ... and I guess that's one way to see why there are countable models for ZFC! |
| 2025-01-18 00:12:25 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2025-01-18 00:13:42 +0100 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i'll be back with a more rigorous statement |
| 2025-01-18 00:13:57 +0100 | <monochrom> | And whatever you do in model theory, you must respect that Herbrand models are here to stay, even if it may be an annoying silly oddball. |
| 2025-01-18 00:16:06 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@c-24-17-1-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 00:16:30 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@37.19.210.25) agent314 |
| 2025-01-18 00:17:58 +0100 | <monochrom> | You may need more than spelling out a rigorous statement. You may end up also needing to spell out exactly which proof system you chose. Like I said, choosing a different one leads to the opposite result. |
| 2025-01-18 00:18:48 +0100 | <monochrom> | And just around the same time in #haskell-offtopic we were talking about how programs come ship with their own C++ libs to avoid DLL hell. |
| 2025-01-18 00:19:24 +0100 | <monochrom> | program : supporting libs :: true statement :: the proof system that proved it |
| 2025-01-18 00:19:59 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 00:20:45 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2025-01-18 00:21:20 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 2025-01-18 00:21:41 +0100 | <monochrom> | Oh and... |
| 2025-01-18 00:21:50 +0100 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom polymorphic |
| 2025-01-18 00:21:50 +0100 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: All pointless debates can be settled by going polymorphic. |
| 2025-01-18 00:22:57 +0100 | <c_wraith> | does that also apply to pointfree debates? |
| 2025-01-18 00:23:13 +0100 | <monochrom> | haha, I haven't thought of that. |
| 2025-01-18 00:23:51 +0100 | igorantonow | (~igor@user/igorantonow) igorantonow |
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| 2025-01-18 01:42:38 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2025-01-18 01:48:49 +0100 | <homo> | trying to convert microhs's use of GHC.Types(Any) to Data.Dynamic(Dynamic) to make hugs happy is so hard that it seems impossible |
| 2025-01-18 01:49:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-01-18 01:51:49 +0100 | <homo> | the more I try the more I discover code that I have to rewrite |
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| 2025-01-18 04:46:48 +0100 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
| 2025-01-18 04:47:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 04:55:11 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 04:55:40 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 04:56:14 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 04:56:40 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 04:56:46 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 04:57:52 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 04:57:55 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 04:58:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 04:59:18 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 04:59:26 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 05:00:09 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager |
| 2025-01-18 05:00:09 +0100 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2025-01-18 05:00:12 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:02:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:10:03 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:10:40 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2025-01-18 05:13:39 +0100 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo |
| 2025-01-18 05:13:51 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 05:18:19 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:24:31 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 05:29:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:32:06 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-01-18 05:36:21 +0100 | Jeanne-Kamikaze | (~Jeanne-Ka@79.127.217.40) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2025-01-18 05:36:37 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:45:14 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 05:50:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:50:25 +0100 | agent314 | (~quassel@37.19.210.25) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:50:59 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d98:5c1a:a689:d0b8) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 05:51:03 +0100 | szkl | (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2025-01-18 05:54:27 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-01-18 05:59:13 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 06:00:35 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 06:05:58 +0100 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.23.250.232) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 06:06:14 +0100 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-01-18 06:07:34 +0100 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 06:08:23 +0100 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d17fae8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2025-01-18 06:12:23 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:d98:5c1a:a689:d0b8) |
| 2025-01-18 06:16:53 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 06:18:23 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 06:19:44 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 06:21:21 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 06:32:15 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 06:32:26 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-01-18 06:36:58 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 06:37:20 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 06:47:16 +0100 | sroso | (~sroso@user/SrOso) SrOso |
| 2025-01-18 06:48:11 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 06:55:24 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:07:34 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 07:12:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:15:59 +0100 | pabs3 | (~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3 |
| 2025-01-18 07:21:25 +0100 | greenflower | (~greenflow@2409:4080:ceba:f2ae:f192:933c:3880:ac13) greenflower |
| 2025-01-18 07:22:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 07:23:35 +0100 | greenflower | (~greenflow@2409:4080:ceba:f2ae:f192:933c:3880:ac13) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-01-18 07:23:55 +0100 | tessier | (~tessier@ec2-184-72-149-67.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:24:15 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2025-01-18 07:25:24 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:26:20 +0100 | pabs3 | (~pabs3@user/pabs3) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 07:26:49 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:27:03 +0100 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2025-01-18 07:28:25 +0100 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
| 2025-01-18 07:29:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:40:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 07:45:40 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:49:28 +0100 | tnt2 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1 |
| 2025-01-18 07:50:30 +0100 | tnt1 | (~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:50:30 +0100 | tnt2 | tnt1 |
| 2025-01-18 07:52:01 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-01-18 07:56:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 07:56:17 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 07:56:59 +0100 | pabs3 | (~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3 |
| 2025-01-18 07:59:36 +0100 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:220:2500:ca4b:d6ff:fec1:99da) CiaoSen |
| 2025-01-18 08:00:15 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 08:00:27 +0100 | JamesMowery439 | (~JamesMowe@ip68-228-212-232.ph.ph.cox.net) (Quit: Goodbye) |
| 2025-01-18 08:00:45 +0100 | JamesMowery4395 | (~JamesMowe@ip68-228-212-232.ph.ph.cox.net) JamesMowery |
| 2025-01-18 08:02:57 +0100 | mikess | (~mikess@user/mikess) mikess |
| 2025-01-18 08:06:53 +0100 | mikess | (~mikess@user/mikess) (Client Quit) |
| 2025-01-18 08:11:25 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 08:13:28 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) Square |
| 2025-01-18 08:16:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 08:23:05 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:24:22 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:24:29 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:25:55 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:26:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 08:31:32 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:32:49 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:33:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 08:33:36 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:34:53 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:35:24 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 08:35:56 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:37:11 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:40:02 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:41:21 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:42:35 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:43:52 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:43:53 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:44:35 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 08:45:12 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:45:20 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 08:46:45 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 08:47:15 +0100 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:b40:1889:d9bf:2dd8:b288) HarveyPwca |
| 2025-01-18 08:49:09 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 08:59:32 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2025-01-18 08:59:57 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) merijn |
| 2025-01-18 09:00:02 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-01-18 09:00:34 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 2025-01-18 09:00:47 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-01-18 09:01:58 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 09:03:16 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 09:03:25 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-01-18 09:04:50 +0100 | simplystuart | (~simplystu@c-75-75-152-164.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 09:04:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2025-01-18 09:05:57 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) V |
| 2025-01-18 09:06:43 +0100 | V | (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (Remote host closed the connection) |