2024/09/16

2024-09-16 00:00:05 +0200 <mauke> no, that would be pointless
2024-09-16 00:00:08 +0200 <dolio> It only breaks on some hypothetical Haskell compiler that doesn't exist.
2024-09-16 00:01:56 +0200 <mauke> the (A+1).B.C issue has been known and fixed since 2018
2024-09-16 00:02:18 +0200 <mauke> it's just that the pvp.haskell.org website is unmaintained and any "fixes" are not deployed anywhere
2024-09-16 00:02:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 00:03:10 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Jade> where is the proper spec writeup?
2024-09-16 00:03:25 +0200 <dolio> Also, even on such a compiler, if you bump by +1, it's still enough to release a major version bump every second for 17 years.
2024-09-16 00:03:54 +0200 <mauke> dolio: depends on where you start
2024-09-16 00:04:43 +0200 <monochrom> What is the purpose of these critiques?
2024-09-16 00:04:51 +0200 <mauke> technically, the ordering requirements are vacuous
2024-09-16 00:06:12 +0200 <mauke> monochrom: me figuring out what exactly I am allowed to upload to hackage and getting feedback from others
2024-09-16 00:07:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:07:36 +0200 <monochrom> OK, so if you don't want others to feedback hate from you, start by not going for 9-digit numbers. :)
2024-09-16 00:08:00 +0200 <mauke> oh, 9 digits are not enough
2024-09-16 00:08:06 +0200Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: WeeChat 4.4.2)
2024-09-16 00:08:11 +0200 <mauke> to break real-world haskell compilers I probably need at least 20 digits
2024-09-16 00:10:49 +0200 <monochrom> OK, I don't do "exactly", I don't always test the limits and patience of other people. I only do "safely" as long as it is large enough.
2024-09-16 00:14:42 +0200troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:15:55 +0200 <sclv> pvp is maintained by the clc, there just hasn't been a redeploy of an official new version, they just keep patching the "beta" repo
2024-09-16 00:16:54 +0200 <monochrom> :(
2024-09-16 00:17:11 +0200 <monochrom> "fixed in HEAD" strikes again
2024-09-16 00:19:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 00:21:54 +0200 <mauke> how's this for a paradox? https://github.com/haskell/pvp/issues/62
2024-09-16 00:22:36 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2024-09-16 00:22:46 +0200 <monochrom> "wontfix"
2024-09-16 00:23:40 +0200 <monochrom> how's using "⊥ = not ⊥" to resolve the paradox of "b = not b"? >:)
2024-09-16 00:23:46 +0200 <mauke> even the haskell logo on pvp.haskell.org is broken :-(
2024-09-16 00:24:14 +0200 <monochrom> and the paradox of "Type : Type" too
2024-09-16 00:24:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:25:53 +0200mxs(~mxs@user/mxs)
2024-09-16 00:27:14 +0200 <mauke> btw, my original idea was to use Gödel numbering to smuggle a proper versioning system into PVP, but it looks like that won't work (or be required)
2024-09-16 00:27:35 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627)
2024-09-16 00:27:54 +0200 <monochrom> list of numbers > one single big fat Gödel number
2024-09-16 00:28:04 +0200 <monochrom> err, even:
2024-09-16 00:28:08 +0200 <monochrom> list of small numbers > one single big fat Gödel number
2024-09-16 00:28:16 +0200mxs(~mxs@user/mxs) (Client Quit)
2024-09-16 00:29:25 +0200 <mauke> acme-bee-movie where the version number encodes the "bee movie" script in ascii
2024-09-16 00:30:20 +0200 <monochrom> You know, if the number is too big, or the list way too long, it may break the hackage server altogether, formalities aside.
2024-09-16 00:30:45 +0200esph(~weechat@user/esph)
2024-09-16 00:31:14 +0200 <monochrom> It is not very productive to be theoretically correct but pragmatically DoS hackage.
2024-09-16 00:31:38 +0200 <mauke> if that breaks hackage, then they should have used a safer language to implement the server. like C.
2024-09-16 00:32:09 +0200 <mauke> and no, I'm not going to actually test the limits
2024-09-16 00:32:59 +0200mxs(~mxs@user/mxs)
2024-09-16 00:33:11 +0200 <mauke> but this seems like a very basic thing to secure against if all your spec says is "you can put an list of unbounded length here"
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2024-09-16 00:40:10 +0200mxs(~mxs@user/mxs) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2024-09-16 00:44:57 +0200morb(~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
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2024-09-16 00:45:35 +0200tabemann(~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:6b51:c8e0:844c:e9ca)
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2024-09-16 00:50:25 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-09-16 00:53:27 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.152) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-09-16 00:54:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-09-16 01:11:19 +0200 <ski> "A Functional Hitchhiker's Guide to Hereditarily Finite Sets, Ackermann Encodings and Pairing Functions" by Paul Tarau (implementor of BinProlog) in 2008-08-06 at <https://arxiv.org/abs/0808.0754> talks about encoding finite sets of natural numbers as natural numbers, and hence also hereditarily finite sets (hereditary like in ZF) as natural numbers
2024-09-16 01:11:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 01:11:45 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb77305c26d382fbfdca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-09-16 01:15:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 01:18:33 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-09-16 01:19:48 +0200Squared(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2024-09-16 01:32:54 +0200 <monochrom> I have always heard of hereditary sets from math friends. Maybe this one will help me learn it. :)
2024-09-16 01:33:20 +0200 <monochrom> "Set theory is too hard, let's go functional programming"
2024-09-16 01:34:05 +0200 <c_wraith> set theory *is* surprisingly hard, for such a "simple" construction.
2024-09-16 01:34:09 +0200benjaminl(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 01:34:25 +0200benjaminl(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl)
2024-09-16 01:34:47 +0200 <Leary> tomsmeding: Re "every memory allocation is marked by a let expression in Core": for these purposes, isn't STG much better, since the other direction also holds? It would make a good addition to the playground. Unrelatedly, yahb2's GHC could do with an upgrade; I wanted Data.Foldable1 the other day but it was too old.
2024-09-16 01:35:04 +0200 <monochrom> I am kind of less surprised after knowing about violin and piano music.
2024-09-16 01:35:24 +0200 <monochrom> Violin is "just 4 strings". Then along came Paganini to ruin it for everyone.
2024-09-16 01:35:55 +0200 <monochrom> Then piano made it trivial to be pitch-perfect. Then along came Chopin and Liszt to ruin it for everyone.
2024-09-16 01:36:03 +0200 <c_wraith> If I'm gonna play a 4-string instrument, it's gonna be a ukulele
2024-09-16 01:36:17 +0200 <monochrom> The general lesson is that there is always someone to find difficult things to do.
2024-09-16 01:36:45 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-16 01:36:58 +0200 <monochrom> And then programming... You think you have designed a simple language, then someone will find a way to write a quine in it and confuse the hell out of everyone.
2024-09-16 01:37:12 +0200 <geekosaur> don't forget tht Beethoven was told by his friends that nobody would ever be able to play his études
2024-09-16 01:37:36 +0200 <c_wraith> I think I heard Conway wanted his game of Life to not be Turing complete. Oops.
2024-09-16 01:37:39 +0200 <monochrom> "Chopin enters the chat" :)
2024-09-16 01:39:37 +0200 <EvanR> haskell is basically beethoven
2024-09-16 01:39:45 +0200Clintsquints.
2024-09-16 01:39:48 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2024-09-16 01:39:55 +0200 <monochrom> Leary: Both STG and -ddump-prep (last core stage before STG) satisfies the iff property.
2024-09-16 01:40:10 +0200 <EvanR> unless you use IO
2024-09-16 01:40:19 +0200 <monochrom> (and "prep" means "prepare for STG")
2024-09-16 01:40:31 +0200 <EvanR> then it becomes the movie about the dog beethoven
2024-09-16 01:40:42 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2024-09-16 01:41:14 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2024-09-16 01:42:14 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2024-09-16 01:43:12 +0200 <monochrom> Then again the STG also goes through some changes, so maybe dump-prep is not the final story either.
2024-09-16 01:43:52 +0200 <monochrom> I prefer Core just because I read Core better than I read STG. :)
2024-09-16 01:44:53 +0200geekosaurstill wishes STGi were far enough along that it could be hooked into the playground
2024-09-16 01:45:12 +0200 <Leary> monochrom: I see, I didn't know that. And yeah, there's still optimisation at both the STG and CMM level, so neither can really be the final story. Core /is/ easier to read for most. Wonder what flags the playground actually uses...
2024-09-16 01:45:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 01:48:08 +0200weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-16 01:49:54 +0200 <monochrom> I don't know for sure, but I bet -ddump-simpl because that's what everyone has been telling each other about.
2024-09-16 01:50:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-16 01:50:24 +0200 <geekosaur> and probably -dsuppress-uniques and the other related flag and I don't recall
2024-09-16 01:51:11 +0200 <monochrom> The playground doesn't seem to add suppress-unique or any other suppress-*
2024-09-16 01:51:21 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, these days it's -dsuppress-all\
2024-09-16 01:51:49 +0200 <monochrom> E.g., I see "ds_dvf", I also see too may types and "Occ=LoopBreaker" etc etc
2024-09-16 01:52:04 +0200 <monochrom> and GHC.Types.[]
2024-09-16 01:53:32 +0200 <geekosaur> (but do you see GHC.Types.Any?)
2024-09-16 01:53:32 +0200haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 01:53:40 +0200 <geekosaur> wtf just happened
2024-09-16 01:53:46 +0200 <geekosaur> my network shut down on me
2024-09-16 01:54:53 +0200 <monochrom> I think I haven't. How do I normally get GHC.Types.Any? Like "print []"?
2024-09-16 01:55:00 +0200haskellbridge(~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 01:55:00 +0200ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2024-09-16 01:55:00 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2024-09-16 02:00:51 +0200 <monochrom> Without ExtendedDefaultRules, that's an ambiguous type error. With ExtendedDefaultRules, () is chosen. I still don't know how to get Any.
2024-09-16 02:02:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 02:05:04 +0200troojg(~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 02:05:24 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, looks like it went away in recent versions. (more correctly, it's a type family instead of a type, so you won't see it)
2024-09-16 02:06:26 +0200k_hachig_(~k_hachig@2607:fea8:351d:ef0:e8aa:5287:babe:ddb5)
2024-09-16 02:06:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-09-16 02:08:01 +0200 <geekosaur> and yes, in simple cases it won't get used, so the `print []` example won't work anyway. it's the complex cases (of which I have none on tap; they're somewhat rare) where Any rears (reared?) its ugly head
2024-09-16 02:08:45 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah I saw Any some years ago too.
2024-09-16 02:10:57 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, I tried some things in yahb2 and can't get it
2024-09-16 02:11:11 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-16 02:15:24 +0200 <monochrom> OK found it, it's -ddump-simpl : https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/blob/master/play-haskell-worker/bwrap-files/stage-3.sh#L41
2024-09-16 02:17:19 +0200 <monochrom> (For /builders/build-*.sh, it's possibly generated by https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/blob/master/play-haskell-worker/bwrap-files/mkbuildscript.sh )
2024-09-16 02:17:41 +0200 <monochrom> (So wait, there is such a thing as "ghcup run"??!!! haha)
2024-09-16 02:18:32 +0200 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Yes
2024-09-16 02:18:40 +0200 <monochrom> Oh interesting, "ghcup run foo" runs foo under additions to PATH so you don't have to permanently add things to PATH if you don't want to.
2024-09-16 02:18:41 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-09-16 02:19:11 +0200 <geekosaur> ghcup run --ghc $(API_GHC) -- print-api --package-name Cabal-syntax >Cabal-syntax-$(API_GHC).api
2024-09-16 02:19:24 +0200 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> This is heavily used in the vscode extension too
2024-09-16 02:19:31 +0200 <geekosaur> (from a work-in-progress)
2024-09-16 02:19:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 02:19:37 +0200 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> To emulate stack like behavior
2024-09-16 02:24:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 02:24:59 +0200 <EvanR> see ghcup run
2024-09-16 02:25:02 +0200 <EvanR> run ghcup run
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2024-09-16 05:29:14 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.165)
2024-09-16 05:29:15 +0200 <Leary> I'm late, but re -Wall: yes it errs on the side of being too loud, because it /should/. Blacklisting the few warnings you don't care about is easier than whitelisting all the ones you do---just turn off the noise as it reaches you.
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2024-09-16 06:22:17 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2024-09-16 06:23:12 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 06:23:51 +0200sourcetarius(~sourcetar@user/sourcetarius) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 06:29:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 06:33:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 06:43:37 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-09-16 06:45:39 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2024-09-16 06:46:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 06:49:58 +0200athan(~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-09-16 06:50:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-16 06:50:50 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168)
2024-09-16 07:01:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 07:03:41 +0200nek0(~nek0@user/nek0) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2024-09-16 07:06:05 +0200billchenchina-(~billchenc@103.152.35.21)
2024-09-16 07:06:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:06:48 +0200dolio(~dolio@130.44.140.168) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:08:32 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146)
2024-09-16 07:13:55 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-09-16 07:17:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 07:21:34 +0200nek0(~nek0@user/nek0)
2024-09-16 07:21:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:22:41 +0200euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores)
2024-09-16 07:27:14 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:28:19 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:30:03 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 07:30:38 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-133-045.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-09-16 07:35:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 07:36:21 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@37.19.200.139) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:43:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:47:15 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb571c92fe2f1c989eb0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-09-16 07:48:54 +0200jle`(~jle`@2603:8001:3b02:84d4:1413:617c:6ead:3f73) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-09-16 07:49:56 +0200jle`(~jle`@2603:8001:3b02:84d4:6c44:9933:28ff:d264)
2024-09-16 07:56:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 08:01:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:01:29 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:04:17 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:07:36 +0200tcard(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-09-16 08:09:35 +0200tcard(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303)
2024-09-16 08:11:50 +0200meinside(uid24933@id-24933.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-09-16 08:12:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 08:16:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:23:01 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2024-09-16 08:25:15 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:241a:5600:1882:dbb1:c93f:cb96) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 08:26:08 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:241a:5600:1882:dbb1:c93f:cb96)
2024-09-16 08:30:05 +0200synchrom1(~john@2406:5a00:241a:5600:1882:dbb1:c93f:cb96)
2024-09-16 08:30:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 08:31:20 +0200spew(~spew@201.141.99.170) (Quit: spew)
2024-09-16 08:32:23 +0200hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4))
2024-09-16 08:32:33 +0200synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:241a:5600:1882:dbb1:c93f:cb96) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:33:07 +0200synchromesh(~john@203.94.52.182)
2024-09-16 08:33:44 +0200hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq)
2024-09-16 08:34:33 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:35:29 +0200synchrom1(~john@2406:5a00:241a:5600:1882:dbb1:c93f:cb96) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:40:05 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 08:41:39 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2024-09-16 08:45:06 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 08:46:38 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4)
2024-09-16 08:47:29 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty)
2024-09-16 08:53:31 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-133-045.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 08:53:47 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-09-16 08:53:59 +0200mankyKitty(sid31287@id-31287.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-09-16 08:56:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-09-16 09:00:01 +0200caconym(~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
2024-09-16 09:00:02 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-09-16 09:00:24 +0200hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4))
2024-09-16 09:00:43 +0200caconym8(~caconym@user/caconym)
2024-09-16 09:00:51 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-09-16 09:01:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-09-16 09:01:54 +0200hiecaq(~hiecaq@user/hiecaq)
2024-09-16 09:03:09 +0200mreh(~matthew@host86-160-168-12.range86-160.btcentralplus.com)