| 2024-06-30 00:00:12 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I'll agree with that |
| 2024-06-30 00:00:34 +0200 | <geekosaur> | for that matter, I have no formal CS training and barely any programming training (I once took a fortran course) |
| 2024-06-30 00:01:27 +0200 | <zzz> | that being said, i recognise the importance of knowing |
| 2024-06-30 00:02:21 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but in this case, I'll also argue that many of the rules you have to know about aren't just from the Report; they're from how early GHC devs chose to implement them and the resulting technical debt |
| 2024-06-30 00:02:30 +0200 | <geekosaur> | cf. Integer behavior |
| 2024-06-30 00:02:52 +0200 | <geekosaur> | and you can't get that even from the GHC manual |
| 2024-06-30 00:04:12 +0200 | <geekosaur> | much of it you have to get by reading the source to the ghc-bignum package |
| 2024-06-30 00:05:21 +0200 | <geekosaur> | which you won't even know about unless you get curious about ghc-pkg --global output, or pay very close attention to ghc release notes |
| 2024-06-30 00:07:29 +0200 | aaronv | (~aaronv@user/aaronv) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-30 02:51:49 +0200 | hololeap | progress-bot |
| 2024-06-30 02:52:35 +0200 | progress-bot | hololeap |
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| 2024-06-30 04:33:29 +0200 | nhar | (~noah@c-73-237-54-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
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| 2024-06-30 04:54:55 +0200 | nhar | (~noah@c-73-237-54-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-30 04:55:53 +0200 | nhar | (~noah@c-73-237-54-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-30 04:57:23 +0200 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b057:7524:18e9:1f68:5cd:444a) |
| 2024-06-30 04:59:01 +0200 | <nhar> | hello world! |
| 2024-06-30 04:59:36 +0200 | <nhar> | is this the right place to ask questions? |
| 2024-06-30 05:03:40 +0200 | aaronv | (~aaronv@user/aaronv) |
| 2024-06-30 05:04:49 +0200 | <mauke> | well, one of them |
| 2024-06-30 05:05:00 +0200 | <mauke> | (hopefully they're haskell related) |
| 2024-06-30 05:05:45 +0200 | <nhar> | oh good! My setup works! (first time IRC user...wasn't sure my Nix setup worked). |
| 2024-06-30 05:05:53 +0200 | <nhar> | I do have a Haskell question though: |
| 2024-06-30 05:06:25 +0200 | <nhar> | I am trying to write a function with the following type: traverseJoin :: (Monad t, Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f (t b)) -> t a -> m (t b) |
| 2024-06-30 05:07:30 +0200 | <mauke> | that looks wrong, even without the typo |
| 2024-06-30 05:08:02 +0200 | <nhar> | How so? I'm not trying to write an instance for `traverse` if that's what you mean |
| 2024-06-30 05:08:21 +0200 | <mauke> | where does that m come from? |
| 2024-06-30 05:08:40 +0200 | <nhar> | that's a typo, it should be f |
| 2024-06-30 05:08:54 +0200 | <mauke> | ah |
| 2024-06-30 05:09:14 +0200 | <nhar> | essientially I'm looking for something that optimizes: join <$> traverse f x |
| 2024-06-30 05:11:53 +0200 | <joeyadams> | :t \f x -> join <$> traverse f x |
| 2024-06-30 05:11:54 +0200 | <lambdabot> | (Monad m, Traversable m, Applicative f) => (a1 -> f (m a2)) -> m a1 -> f (m a2) |
| 2024-06-30 05:14:29 +0200 | <joeyadams> | :t concatMap |
| 2024-06-30 05:14:30 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> [b]) -> t a -> [b] |
| 2024-06-30 05:19:22 +0200 | <joeyadams> | So are you asking if there's a generalized concatMap that isn't specialized to returning a list? |
| 2024-06-30 05:20:54 +0200 | <nhar> | kind of. I am looking for something that is like traverse but instead of the function returning pure values wrapped in the Applicative it returns new sub-trees of the data structure your traverse that would be stitched in "on the way up" |
| 2024-06-30 05:21:21 +0200 | <nhar> | traverse (f :: a -> m (t b)) x :: m (t (t b)) |
| 2024-06-30 05:21:49 +0200 | <nhar> | and so join <$> traverse f x :: m (t b) |
| 2024-06-30 05:22:03 +0200 | madhavanmiui | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1030:9d51:8000::) |
| 2024-06-30 05:22:13 +0200 | <nhar> | the `join <$>` part has to crawl through t again just to perform the join |
| 2024-06-30 05:27:44 +0200 | robertm | (robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8) |
| 2024-06-30 05:30:19 +0200 | robertm | (robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) |
| 2024-06-30 05:34:02 +0200 | <joeyadams> | To make this easier to think about, I'll specialize f to [] and t to Tree, giving: traverseJoin :: (a -> [Tree b]) -> Tree a -> [Tree b] |
| 2024-06-30 05:34:47 +0200 | <nhar> | good idea |
| 2024-06-30 05:35:37 +0200 | madhavanmiui | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:1030:9d51:8000::) (Quit: Quit) |
| 2024-06-30 05:35:45 +0200 | <Leary> | nhar: Perhaps you can use `Monoid (t b)` rather than `Monad t`? |
| 2024-06-30 05:35:51 +0200 | <Leary> | :t \f -> getAp . foldMap (Ap . f) |
| 2024-06-30 05:35:52 +0200 | <lambdabot> | forall k (t :: * -> *) (f :: k -> *) (a1 :: k) a2. (Foldable t, Monoid (Ap f a1)) => (a2 -> f a1) -> t a2 -> f a1 |
| 2024-06-30 05:39:31 +0200 | <nhar> | that kind of works..however: instance (Applicative f, Monoid a1) => Monoid (Ap f a1) |
| 2024-06-30 05:39:54 +0200 | <nhar> | that would require a Monoid instance for `b` in my signature for traverseJoin |
| 2024-06-30 05:41:25 +0200 | <Leary> | Not if `Monoid (t b)` is satisfied regardless of `b`. |
| 2024-06-30 05:42:39 +0200 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6) |
| 2024-06-30 05:43:14 +0200 | <Leary> | The other option is Alternative. |
| 2024-06-30 05:43:17 +0200 | <Leary> | :t \f -> getAp . fmap getAlt . foldMap (Ap . fmap Alt . f) |
| 2024-06-30 05:43:18 +0200 | <lambdabot> | forall k (f1 :: * -> *) (t :: * -> *) (f2 :: k -> *) (a1 :: k) a2. (Foldable t, Applicative f1, Monoid (Alt f2 a1)) => (a2 -> f1 (f2 a1)) -> t a2 -> f1 (f2 a1) |
| 2024-06-30 05:43:50 +0200 | <nhar> | Leary: true. but to be more transparent my `t` type is an AST and I don't see a reasonable way to make a Monoid or Alternative instance for that |
| 2024-06-30 05:44:18 +0200 | <nhar> | data Exp a = Var a | Lam VarName (Exp a) | App (Exp a) (Exp a) |
| 2024-06-30 05:44:39 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 05:46:27 +0200 | <nhar> | I'm pretty sure at minimum I'll need Traversable t becuase Traversable is what re-constructs the original AST I'm folding over |
| 2024-06-30 05:49:43 +0200 | <Leary> | If you really want to optimise `join <$> traverse f x` for that, you're probably best off just writing it by hand. |
| 2024-06-30 05:51:15 +0200 | <nhar> | yeah...I think you're right. And if I need to make a new typeclass. Thanks for the help! |
| 2024-06-30 05:57:23 +0200 | <nhar> | wait...I think I figured out a better approach: \x h -> lift x >>= h :: (MonadTrans f, Monad t) => (a -> f (t a)) -> t a -> f (t b) |
| 2024-06-30 06:05:19 +0200 | <mauke> | (MonadTrans f, Monad t) => t a -> (a -> f t b) -> f t b |
| 2024-06-30 06:12:35 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip92348280.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-30 06:13:09 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-06-30 06:15:17 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip92348280.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-30 06:23:19 +0200 | aaronv | (~aaronv@user/aaronv) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-30 06:23:44 +0200 | aaronv | (~aaronv@user/aaronv) |
| 2024-06-30 06:25:04 +0200 | <Leary> | nhar: You can write `newtype TraverseT t f a = TraverseT{ runTraverseT :: f (t a) }; instance (Traversable t, Monad t, Monad f) => Monad (TraverseT t f)` and use `\f x -> runTraverseT (TraverseT (pure x) >>= TraverseT . f)`, but that bind will end up doing exactly what you're trying to avoid. |
| 2024-06-30 06:25:41 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@185.219.141.162) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 06:29:57 +0200 | lol_ | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:c519:e2d2:dade:6025) |
| 2024-06-30 06:30:59 +0200 | DreamDeckup | (~DreamDeck@bras-base-lprrpq1404w-grc-06-184-145-181-233.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 2024-06-30 06:32:01 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 06:33:59 +0200 | <nhar> | Leary: Thanks! I think technically the MonadTrans direction is really what I'm looking for...you wouldn't happen to have used polysemy by any chance? |
| 2024-06-30 06:34:03 +0200 | jcarpenter2 | (~lol@2603:3016:1e01:b940:c8a1:76:d03d:bf70) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 06:36:36 +0200 | <Leary> | nhar: Nope, and I don't recommend any of the early effect systems, especially if efficiency is a priority. Consider effectful or bluefin instead. |
| 2024-06-30 06:38:08 +0200 | DreamDeckup | (~DreamDeck@bras-base-lprrpq1404w-grc-06-184-145-181-233.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 06:38:28 +0200 | DreamDeckup | (~DreamDeck@194.127.199.29) |
| 2024-06-30 06:38:29 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) |
| 2024-06-30 06:40:48 +0200 | <nhar> | Leary: Thanks! I'll look into those! Not sure how to keep up with what's outdated etc... |
| 2024-06-30 06:50:35 +0200 | aaronv | (~aaronv@user/aaronv) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 06:53:57 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
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| 2024-06-30 09:37:21 +0200 | sprout | (~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-6981-debe-91f4-8f74.fixed6.kpn.net) |
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| 2024-06-30 09:39:48 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb4649ca0157bfe844d2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 2024-06-30 09:53:07 +0200 | madhavanmiui | (~madhavanm@152.58.253.222) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-30 09:55:34 +0200 | reuben | (~reuben@183.82.114.12) |
| 2024-06-30 09:57:02 +0200 | reuben | (~reuben@183.82.114.12) () |
| 2024-06-30 09:59:54 +0200 | tcard | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-06-30 10:03:11 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-30 10:05:17 +0200 | aforemny | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cdc:700:7c5a:7635:6125:375c) |
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| 2024-06-30 12:40:54 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3215-598d-d54a-56ea-534f-abcf.rev.sfr.net) |
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| 2024-06-30 12:45:09 +0200 | alexherbo2 | (~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3215-598d-edb2-6673-65b4-fdc7.rev.sfr.net) |
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| 2024-06-30 12:50:37 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) |
| 2024-06-30 13:00:25 +0200 | soverysour | (~soverysou@user/soverysour) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 13:02:36 +0200 | mrmr15533434 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Quit: Bye, See ya later!) |
| 2024-06-30 13:11:23 +0200 | misterfish | (~misterfis@046044172198.static.ipv4.heldenvannu.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 13:16:11 +0200 | <xerox> | anybody knows of a swift introduction to template haskell? I'd like to reify a very small subset of haskell (lambdas, applications, and a handful of functions) into a data tree that I want to operate on, I think TH is how I could go about it pretty directly? |
| 2024-06-30 13:22:09 +0200 | mrmr155334346 | (~mrmr@user/mrmr) |
| 2024-06-30 13:26:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ghc user guide maybe ? |
| 2024-06-30 13:28:16 +0200 | misterfish | (~misterfis@87.215.131.102) |
| 2024-06-30 13:31:02 +0200 | <xerox> | yeah just stumbled upon that one, excellent |
| 2024-06-30 13:32:01 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-30 13:33:22 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78.10.207.46) |
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| 2024-06-30 16:15:41 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-30 16:16:15 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2024-06-30 16:19:47 +0200 | Teacup_ | (~teacup@user/teacup) () |
| 2024-06-30 16:20:05 +0200 | Teacup | (~teacup@user/teacup) |
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| 2024-06-30 17:49:57 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-30 17:51:56 +0200 | soverysour | (~soverysou@81.196.150.219) |
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| 2024-06-30 18:00:04 +0200 | srk- | (~sorki@user/srk) |
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| 2024-06-30 18:02:55 +0200 | srk- | srk |
| 2024-06-30 18:09:50 +0200 | oo_miguel | (~Thunderbi@78.10.207.46) (Quit: oo_miguel) |
| 2024-06-30 18:16:22 +0200 | soverysour | (~soverysou@user/soverysour) |
| 2024-06-30 18:16:45 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-30 18:20:15 +0200 | Maxdamantus | (~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-06-30 18:20:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-30 18:20:57 +0200 | Maxdamantus | (~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus) |
| 2024-06-30 18:21:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-30 18:22:11 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-30 18:23:28 +0200 | koz | (~koz@121.99.240.58) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-06-30 18:24:45 +0200 | koz | (~koz@121.99.240.58) |
| 2024-06-30 18:26:09 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-06-30 18:27:41 +0200 | Lawrence1erkheim | (~LBerkheim@user/LawrenceBerkheim) |
| 2024-06-30 18:27:44 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | hello |
| 2024-06-30 18:29:37 +0200 | <Rembane> | Hi Lawrence1erkheim ! |
| 2024-06-30 18:31:28 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | I had a dummy moment with a question, but then I googled it and figured it out haha |
| 2024-06-30 18:31:44 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | my bad |
| 2024-06-30 18:32:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | rubber duck debugging at its finest |
| 2024-06-30 18:32:33 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-30 18:33:05 +0200 | FinnElija | (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) |
| 2024-06-30 18:33:08 +0200 | <Rembane> | Lawrence1erkheim: No worries, you just won the internet! |
| 2024-06-30 18:34:05 +0200 | <Rembane> | Lawrence1erkheim: Mildly relevant: https://xkcd.com/979/ |
| 2024-06-30 18:34:42 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-30 18:35:11 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) |
| 2024-06-30 18:36:43 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2603:6010:5100:2ed:af11:237f:c1e1:d41b) |
| 2024-06-30 18:41:53 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 2024-06-30 18:43:24 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Uhm ok I'd love some advice on learning materials |
| 2024-06-30 18:43:39 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Basically I learned haskell aaaaages ago when I did my bsc |
| 2024-06-30 18:43:57 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Now I'm trying to refresh my knowledge because I'll assist a professor at the uni |
| 2024-06-30 18:44:13 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | I opened up learnyouahaskell.com, and started going through that |
| 2024-06-30 18:44:24 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | But I just figured out that I'm mostly familiar with the concepts |
| 2024-06-30 18:45:29 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | However, when I opened up the last year's exercises, I found stuff like `Module bla bla bla`, `import`, etc. |
| 2024-06-30 18:45:33 +0200 | mikess | (~mikess@user/mikess) |
| 2024-06-30 18:45:47 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Which is different from the stuff that I just read which is basically functional programming concepts |
| 2024-06-30 18:45:56 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Can you suggest any resources? |
| 2024-06-30 18:46:07 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | I'm not sure what to google because I don't know what that more engineering type of programming is called here |
| 2024-06-30 18:47:21 +0200 | <Rembane> | Lawrence1erkheim: Real World Haskell is ancient by now, but might be worth giving a skim. |
| 2024-06-30 18:47:53 +0200 | <Rembane> | Isn't there a list of resources in lambdabot or something? I can't remember the word to invoke them with though. |
| 2024-06-30 18:48:27 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | thank you o7 |
| 2024-06-30 18:49:05 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | I very rarely come on to IRC, I barely managed to get on here so I'm affraid to brick my irssi while trying to invoke a bot |
| 2024-06-30 18:49:11 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> @ where and also https://haskell-links.org |
| 2024-06-30 18:49:49 +0200 | <Rembane> | Lawrence1erkheim: A potential stupid advice is to try to do the exercises for the course you'll work with yourself and ask here when you get stuck. :D |
| 2024-06-30 18:49:55 +0200 | <Rembane> | @where |
| 2024-06-30 18:49:55 +0200 | <lambdabot> | @where <key>, return element associated with key |
| 2024-06-30 18:50:01 +0200 | <Rembane> | lambdabot: @where |
| 2024-06-30 18:50:02 +0200 | <lambdabot> | @where <key>, return element associated with key |
| 2024-06-30 18:50:09 +0200 | <Rembane> | lambdabot: where |
| 2024-06-30 18:52:23 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | Rembane: Yea that's also on the table. For now I'm thinking that doing some reading will make the entire experience way smoother, although I _will_ have to do those exercises myself. |
| 2024-06-30 18:54:28 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2024-06-30 18:54:33 +0200 | <Rembane> | Lawrence1erkheim: Woohoo! I was mostly hoping they would give you some terminology and break up the big gap of blank in some smaller pieces. |
| 2024-06-30 18:56:28 +0200 | <mreh> | Lawrence1erkheim: do you mind saying which uni? |
| 2024-06-30 18:57:56 +0200 | <Lawrence1erkheim> | mreh: I'd rather not, the internet is a spooky place. |
| 2024-06-30 18:58:56 +0200 | dyniec | (~dyniec@dybiec.info) |
| 2024-06-30 19:07:30 +0200 | L29Ah | (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 2024-06-30 19:10:44 +0200 | <mreh> | I was looking at RWH the other day, it's still very relevant I would say. And free. |
| 2024-06-30 19:11:09 +0200 | <mreh> | https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ |
| 2024-06-30 19:11:33 +0200 | <Rembane> | I think it depends on which parts of it you look at. It's not that easy to follow along because the version of Haskell is ancient and so are the packages. |
| 2024-06-30 19:11:57 +0200 | <mreh> | depends on his syllabus too |
| 2024-06-30 19:12:17 +0200 | <Rembane> | Indeed. This is where it gets tricky. :) |
| 2024-06-30 19:13:03 +0200 | <mreh> | YouTube is super good these days |
| 2024-06-30 19:13:09 +0200 | <dolio> | It doesn't seem likely that a college course on Haskell is going to be super focused on the details of particular trendy libraries. |