| 2024-06-15 00:12:13 +0200 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) (Quit: WeeChat 4.3.1) |
| 2024-06-15 00:26:39 +0200 | phma | (phma@2001:5b0:212a:de28:a570:e84e:3c80:47f8) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-06-15 00:51:28 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc85ec861666d651a7ab.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-15 05:35:59 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 05:36:09 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | is there a haskell to XLA compiler? i hate python |
| 2024-06-15 05:36:28 +0200 | fraznel | (~fuag1@c-67-160-124-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-15 05:41:03 +0200 | Core9700 | (~rosco@183.171.77.248) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 05:42:10 +0200 | xigua | (~xigua@user/xigua) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2024-06-15 05:42:58 +0200 | aforemny_ | (~aforemny@2001:9e8:6ceb:e600:2c9:e941:ad5c:4927) |
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| 2024-06-15 06:06:17 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:100f:354f:8000::) |
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| 2024-06-15 06:21:28 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:2e:8a90:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 06:21:57 +0200 | slack1256 | (~slack1256@179.60.70.224) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 06:46:18 +0200 | slack1256 | (~slack1256@179.60.70.224) |
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| 2024-06-15 06:59:37 +0200 | philopsos1 | (~caecilius@user/philopsos) |
| 2024-06-15 07:10:03 +0200 | Midjak | (~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) |
| 2024-06-15 07:20:21 +0200 | solaire | (~solaire@syn-024-165-026-201.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-15 07:24:28 +0200 | <xacktm> | I'm getting some compilation errors when trying to compile Wuss's example program https://github.com/tfausak/wuss can someone point out where my error is? I suspect indentation but it's all 2-space delimited: https://github.com/tfausak/wuss |
| 2024-06-15 07:24:51 +0200 | <xacktm> | oops error/code is: https://bpa.st/VW5A |
| 2024-06-15 07:26:57 +0200 | <mauke> | xacktm: bad indentation on line 22 |
| 2024-06-15 07:27:57 +0200 | <mauke> | 'let' uses layout |
| 2024-06-15 07:28:28 +0200 | <mauke> | 'line' must be indented more than 'loop' (in the line above) because it is part of loop's definition |
| 2024-06-15 07:29:17 +0200 | <xacktm> | ahh ok it's not like the top-level functions like `ws connection` there |
| 2024-06-15 07:29:19 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 07:29:51 +0200 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) |
| 2024-06-15 07:29:58 +0200 | <mauke> | it is, in a way |
| 2024-06-15 07:30:22 +0200 | <mauke> | the top-level layout is governed by 'where' (line 1) |
| 2024-06-15 07:31:15 +0200 | <mauke> | 'ws' starts in column 1, so all parts of its definition must be indented by at least 1 space |
| 2024-06-15 07:31:52 +0200 | <mauke> | but 'loop' starts in column 7 |
| 2024-06-15 07:32:34 +0200 | <xacktm> | whoah that just blew my mind, that where clause in line 1 |
| 2024-06-15 07:32:50 +0200 | <xacktm> | can you do imports way down in a where clause in a function? |
| 2024-06-15 07:33:12 +0200 | <mauke> | in a rigid indentation scheme, you'd have to start a new line after 'let', then 'loop = do' (indented one more level), then another new line and indentation level |
| 2024-06-15 07:33:31 +0200 | <mauke> | no, imports are only allowed at the top level |
| 2024-06-15 07:35:20 +0200 | <xacktm> | hmm I think I might try that style |
| 2024-06-15 07:35:54 +0200 | <xacktm> | https://bpa.st/VGGA you mean something like this right? it does compile |
| 2024-06-15 07:36:21 +0200 | <mauke> | yes, exactly |
| 2024-06-15 07:37:33 +0200 | <xacktm> | I'll let it simmer but I kinda like it already |
| 2024-06-15 07:39:24 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2603:6010:5100:2ed:dcb8:51bd:e128:b5ae) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-15 07:41:10 +0200 | <xacktm> | then if I join the let and loop = do lines, the body can stay the same indentation and it is clear where that body should be indented |
| 2024-06-15 07:41:17 +0200 | <xacktm> | thanks :) |
| 2024-06-15 07:43:36 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip92348280.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 07:44:04 +0200 | <iqubic> | I'm forgetting how haskell works. Do I need to escape single quotes in my strings? |
| 2024-06-15 07:44:45 +0200 | <mauke> | no |
| 2024-06-15 07:45:14 +0200 | <mauke> | unless you write your strings like ['h','e','l','l','o'] |
| 2024-06-15 07:45:58 +0200 | CrunchyFlakes | (~CrunchyFl@ip92348280.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
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| 2024-06-15 07:58:47 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
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| 2024-06-15 09:00:55 +0200 | Midjak | (~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) |
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| 2024-06-15 09:30:07 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 09:37:42 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 09:38:18 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc5559a3cb0167348b6b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 2024-06-15 10:17:33 +0200 | Nixkernal | (~Nixkernal@240.17.194.178.dynamic.cust.swisscom.net) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 2024-06-15 10:21:05 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 10:21:53 +0200 | gmg | (~user@user/gehmehgeh) |
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| 2024-06-15 12:21:57 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 12:24:05 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2024-06-15 12:36:08 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 12:38:03 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 12:40:00 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-000-036.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-15 12:40:05 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 12:44:44 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) |
| 2024-06-15 12:44:51 +0200 | greenflower | (~greenflow@103.191.25.63) |
| 2024-06-15 12:47:57 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-15 12:53:34 +0200 | sawilagar | (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) |
| 2024-06-15 12:55:23 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 13:00:00 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-000-036.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 13:00:18 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-15 13:04:26 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 13:06:09 +0200 | greenflower | (~greenflow@103.191.25.63) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-06-15 13:08:53 +0200 | greenflower38 | (~greenflow@103.191.25.63) |
| 2024-06-15 13:25:47 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a05:5800:2b1:a100:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 13:30:32 +0200 | greenflower38 | (~greenflow@103.191.25.63) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2024-06-15 13:31:29 +0200 | td_ | (~td@i53870937.versanet.de) |
| 2024-06-15 13:31:54 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 13:32:53 +0200 | sprout | (~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-2046-6d0d-4c96-b4d9.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 13:34:20 +0200 | sprout | (~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-758a-35d7-4890-aab6.fixed6.kpn.net) |
| 2024-06-15 13:37:32 +0200 | polux | (~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 13:37:40 +0200 | polux | (~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu) |
| 2024-06-15 13:40:41 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2024-06-15 13:49:38 +0200 | <kaol> | I ended up doing code like (\a b c -> a $ b $ c $ someval) <$> Just (+1) <*> Just (+2) <*> Just (+3). It works but I was left feeling that maybe I missed some more obvious way of writing it. Anyone think of anything? |
| 2024-06-15 13:50:42 +0200 | <ncf> | uh |
| 2024-06-15 13:51:00 +0200 | <ncf> | Just (someval + 6) ? |
| 2024-06-15 13:51:08 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 13:51:23 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 13:52:06 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 13:52:11 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 13:52:19 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 13:54:15 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 13:54:48 +0200 | <kaol> | Stuffing them in a foldable would allow foldr ($) someval. Probably not worth it. |
| 2024-06-15 13:54:54 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-15 13:58:03 +0200 | <ncf> | why would you do this if you statically have three `Just`s? did you mean (\a b c -> a $ b $ c $ someval) <$> x <*> y <*> z ? |
| 2024-06-15 13:58:26 +0200 | <kaol> | I guess what I'm really asking for is how to apply arbitrary amount of endofuctions that are wrapped inside applicatives. |
| 2024-06-15 13:59:18 +0200 | <ncf> | in theory you could have something akin to Endo and Kleisli but for f (a -> a) |
| 2024-06-15 13:59:27 +0200 | <ncf> | which becomes a Monoid if f is Applicative |
| 2024-06-15 13:59:35 +0200 | <ncf> | i don't know if that's defined anywhere though |
| 2024-06-15 13:59:58 +0200 | <kaol> | My real code doesn't have static Justs, it was just for example's sake to make it self contained one liner. |
| 2024-06-15 14:00:00 +0200 | <ncf> | plus i'm always a bit uneasy with these things because the type system doesn't enforce which direction things are composed, so you have to remember it |
| 2024-06-15 14:00:19 +0200 | <ncf> | why would you add things that aren't in your code, if the point is simplicity? anyway |
| 2024-06-15 14:00:56 +0200 | <probie> | :t \someval -> fmap ((`appEndo` someval) . foldMap Endo) (sequenceA [Just (+1), Just (+2), Just (+3)]) |
| 2024-06-15 14:00:57 +0200 | <lambdabot> | Num b => b -> Maybe b |
| 2024-06-15 14:03:53 +0200 | <ncf> | i'm surprised hoogle doesn't find Kleisli for `(a -> m b) -> x m a b` |
| 2024-06-15 14:07:08 +0200 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 14:07:26 +0200 | <ncf> | ooo, you can describe this as the change of enriching category induced by the lax monoidal functor f |
| 2024-06-15 14:26:39 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-15 14:27:17 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 14:30:52 +0200 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@117.147.70.212) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2024-06-15 14:31:18 +0200 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@117.147.70.212) |
| 2024-06-15 14:32:04 +0200 | fraznel | (~fuag1@c-67-160-124-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 14:33:52 +0200 | <Leary> | Ideally, we would have `newtype (f `Over` c) a b = Over (f (c a b))` with `instance (Applicative f, Category c) => Category (f `Over` c)` and `newtype Endo c a = Endo (c a a)` with `instance Category c => Monoid (Endo c)`. Then it would just be `coerce . foldMap (Endo . Over)`. |
| 2024-06-15 14:36:09 +0200 | <Leary> | The former being to Applicative as Kleisli is to Monad; in an alternative history we could have had `type Monad f = Category (Kleisli f)` and `type Applicative f = Category (f `Over` (->))`. |
| 2024-06-15 14:36:12 +0200 | <ncf> | Over = Tannen https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.6.2/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Tannen.html#t:Tannen |
| 2024-06-15 14:36:38 +0200 | <ncf> | (Applicative f, Category p) => Category (Tannen f p :: k -> k -> Type) |
| 2024-06-15 14:36:40 +0200 | <ncf> | nice |
| 2024-06-15 14:37:33 +0200 | <ncf> | and Endo = Join https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.6.2/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Join.html |
| 2024-06-15 14:38:02 +0200 | <ncf> | that doesn't have the Monoid instance (probably for the best, given the issue with the direction of composition) |
| 2024-06-15 14:38:30 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.17.233) |
| 2024-06-15 14:39:28 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@na-19-77-127.service.infuturo.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 14:41:29 +0200 | <Leary> | Cheers---it's good to know that `Over` is actually defined somewhere, and what it's called---I always felt it was an omission. Re `Endo`/`Join`, I don't think that's a good reason to omit the instance. It should just compose the same order as the category by default, and hence the opposite way with `Dual`. |
| 2024-06-15 14:42:41 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2024-06-15 14:43:09 +0200 | henry40408 | (~henry4040@175.182.111.183) |
| 2024-06-15 14:43:17 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 14:44:10 +0200 | <ncf> | i guess an order is already chosen for Endo |
| 2024-06-15 14:44:15 +0200 | <ncf> | the actual Endo |
| 2024-06-15 14:45:51 +0200 | troydm | (~troydm@user/troydm) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 14:52:03 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 14:52:16 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2a09:bac1:3680:30::23:2c8) |
| 2024-06-15 14:56:41 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.17.233) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 14:56:44 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2a09:bac1:3680:30::23:2c8) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 14:57:16 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 14:57:56 +0200 | <hammond> | terrible question, but is Category Theory too abstract? too up there? or can is it applied? |
| 2024-06-15 14:57:56 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 14:58:22 +0200 | dsrt^ | (~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-15 15:02:30 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@151.47.24.35) |
| 2024-06-15 15:06:03 +0200 | meritamen | (~user@user/meritamen) |
| 2024-06-15 15:06:18 +0200 | dcoutts | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-15 15:15:50 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) |
| 2024-06-15 15:19:05 +0200 | dcoutts | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 15:28:01 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 15:28:17 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2a09:bac1:3680:30::19b:19f) |
| 2024-06-15 15:30:06 +0200 | joeyadams | (~joeyadams@2603:6010:5100:2ed:6465:9d89:eb1c:da19) |
| 2024-06-15 15:33:07 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2a09:bac1:3680:30::19b:19f) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 15:33:46 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 15:40:41 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@151.47.24.35) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2024-06-15 15:49:02 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 15:50:04 +0200 | mlatys | (~mlatys@2409:8938:49:df48:cc31:2eff:fe94:4eb8) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 15:51:21 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) |
| 2024-06-15 15:55:37 +0200 | Midjak | (~MarciZ@82.66.147.146) |
| 2024-06-15 15:56:02 +0200 | <hololeap> | is this being caused by gcc exiting with a non-zero exit code, or by ghc interpreting the warning as an error? https://github.com/mvv/posix-timer/issues/2 |
| 2024-06-15 15:59:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-15 16:10:19 +0200 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I have bunch of functions with the following type: Int -> IO (Either e a) what is the best way to chain them together? |
| 2024-06-15 16:10:48 +0200 | <lxsameer> | btw `a` is Int here and e is Exception |
| 2024-06-15 16:12:04 +0200 | <ncf> | (>=>) in ExceptT Exception IO ? |
| 2024-06-15 16:13:37 +0200 | <lxsameer> | ncf: hmmm I'm trying to avoid using Except, my main issue here is that I want to utilize the Monad type class for Either, and automatically return Left e and any step if the either value matched that |
| 2024-06-15 16:14:04 +0200 | <ncf> | that's... what ExceptT is for |
| 2024-06-15 16:14:05 +0200 | <lxsameer> | something like a foldr |
| 2024-06-15 16:14:49 +0200 | <lxsameer> | ok thank you |
| 2024-06-15 16:22:17 +0200 | <mauke> | IO does exceptions natively |
| 2024-06-15 16:22:22 +0200 | <mauke> | you could just use IO a |
| 2024-06-15 16:22:29 +0200 | sebastian | (~sebastian@c-69-138-1-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 2024-06-15 16:22:43 +0200 | sebastian | Guest9389 |
| 2024-06-15 16:24:16 +0200 | <lxsameer> | mauke: the lib that I'm using returns IO (Either ...) |
| 2024-06-15 16:24:38 +0200 | <mauke> | hololeap: from the C side of things, it's caused by the code being wrong. it was undefined behavior in C89/C90 and it's been an error since C99 |
| 2024-06-15 16:24:54 +0200 | Guest9389 | (~sebastian@c-69-138-1-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-15 16:25:15 +0200 | <mauke> | gcc says "error:", so I assume it exits with a non-zero status |
| 2024-06-15 16:30:27 +0200 | meritamen | (~user@user/meritamen) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 16:30:37 +0200 | <hololeap> | ok. it sounds like it started after an upgrade to gcc 14, so they must have upgraded the warning to an error |
| 2024-06-15 16:31:55 +0200 | <mauke> | yeah, https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-14/porting_to.html |
| 2024-06-15 16:33:07 +0200 | causal | (~eric@50.35.88.207) |
| 2024-06-15 16:37:45 +0200 | <hololeap> | what would be the argument to pass to `cabal configure` to disable that as a workaround? |
| 2024-06-15 16:38:53 +0200 | <hololeap> | --gcc-option=-Wno-error=implicit-function-declaration ? |
| 2024-06-15 16:40:11 +0200 | <mauke> | I swear, programmers would use -fignore-errors everywhere if they could |
| 2024-06-15 16:41:30 +0200 | <hololeap> | I don't. I use -Wall -Werror wherever I can :) |
| 2024-06-15 16:42:21 +0200 | <hololeap> | but just for the sake of knowledge, would --gcc-option=... work? |
| 2024-06-15 16:42:30 +0200 | <hololeap> | is that a valid argument? |
| 2024-06-15 16:43:14 +0200 | <hololeap> | `cabal configure --help` shows "--PROG-option=OPT", but I'm not sure if it will take gcc as PROG |
| 2024-06-15 16:43:24 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-15 16:45:07 +0200 | <hololeap> | also, I wonder if the haskell github action could be told to use gcc 14 so this shows up as an error in their CI |
| 2024-06-15 16:46:40 +0200 | <mauke> | I don't know |
| 2024-06-15 16:52:20 +0200 | lxsameer | (~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 16:53:45 +0200 | Lycurgus | (~georg@user/Lycurgus) |
| 2024-06-15 17:04:21 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 17:05:43 +0200 | Lycurgus | (~georg@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-06-15 17:06:04 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) (Quit: Quit) |
| 2024-06-15 17:17:50 +0200 | stiell | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 17:18:30 +0200 | stiell | (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) |
| 2024-06-15 17:23:15 +0200 | madhavanmi | (~madhavanm@2409:40f4:3c:714e:8000::) |
| 2024-06-15 17:34:34 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-15 17:38:06 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 17:39:21 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) |
| 2024-06-15 17:43:18 +0200 | <monochrom> | -fignore-errors = python and php |
| 2024-06-15 17:45:27 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-15 17:46:19 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-15 17:48:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | But PROG can be gcc IIRC. Give it a try. |
| 2024-06-15 17:52:43 +0200 | raym | (~ray@115.187.32.4) |
| 2024-06-15 17:52:49 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2024-06-15 17:53:38 +0200 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2024-06-15 17:54:04 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 17:54:20 +0200 | rdcdr | (~rdcdr@user/rdcdr) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 17:57:10 +0200 | raym | (~ray@115.187.32.4) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-15 17:57:29 +0200 | raym | (~ray@115.187.32.4) |
| 2024-06-15 17:58:54 +0200 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) |
| 2024-06-15 17:58:54 +0200 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2024-06-15 17:59:19 +0200 | raym | (~ray@115.187.32.4) (Changing host) |
| 2024-06-15 17:59:19 +0200 | raym | (~ray@user/raym) |
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| 2024-06-15 18:01:04 +0200 | raym | (~ray@user/raym) |
| 2024-06-15 18:03:01 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-06-15 18:04:22 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 18:04:38 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-002-144-170.176.2.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-06-15 18:07:57 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-002-144-170.176.2.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 18:08:15 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-06-15 18:11:23 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 18:15:45 +0200 | <hololeap> | monochrom: yeah, it worked. also I added "#include <stdio.h>" to the two .hsc files and submitted it as a PR |
| 2024-06-15 18:20:51 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 18:24:17 +0200 | xdminsy | (~xdminsy@117.147.70.212) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 18:26:59 +0200 | billchenchina | (~billchenc@2a0d:2580:ff0c:1:e3c9:c52b:a429:5bfe) |
| 2024-06-15 18:27:10 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-15 18:29:08 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 18:32:56 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5osk9lrGNg |
| 2024-06-15 18:33:39 +0200 | <monochrom> | What would that be? |
| 2024-06-15 18:34:10 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | computer chronicles |
| 2024-06-15 18:36:04 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | program code is a tree. what is the high level data structure corresponding to the *state* of a program prior to consideration of evaluation strategy? |
| 2024-06-15 18:39:06 +0200 | <c_wraith> | that question makes some unfounded assumptions. Even "program code is a tree" is only one way to look at things. |
| 2024-06-15 18:39:59 +0200 | <c_wraith> | The state of a program might be viewed as the state of some specific hardware. Or it might be the model the programming language defines. Or you might use something in between. |
| 2024-06-15 18:42:21 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | are there nontree programming languages? |
| 2024-06-15 18:42:37 +0200 | <c_wraith> | you can always construct a parse as a tree. that's not what I mean. |
| 2024-06-15 18:42:48 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | reduction (and choice of evaluation strategy) is required to map the state onto hardware |
| 2024-06-15 18:42:56 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I mean you can also construct a more general graph, if you use a different strategy |
| 2024-06-15 18:43:07 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | different eval strategy? |
| 2024-06-15 18:43:21 +0200 | <c_wraith> | no, I'm still talking about the representation of the code. |
| 2024-06-15 18:43:22 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-15 18:43:24 +0200 | <monochrom> | I'm going to s/evaluation strategy/operational semantics/ . What is your definition of "state" if you don't specify an operational semantics? |
| 2024-06-15 18:43:52 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I'm saying you should say "code is a tree" when it's much more accurate to say "code can be modeled as a tree". It's not that it *is* a tree. It's that a tree works as a model. |
| 2024-06-15 18:44:06 +0200 | <c_wraith> | err, shouldn't say |
| 2024-06-15 18:44:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | Hell, in fact, s/definition/mathematical definition/ I refuse to do armchair philosophy. |
| 2024-06-15 18:45:38 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | okay code can be (fully?) modeled as a tree... |
| 2024-06-15 18:45:42 +0200 | <c_wraith> | In the same way, there isn't a single "the state" of a program independent of the model you're working in. |
| 2024-06-15 18:45:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | Also the elephant in the room: s/the/a/ |
| 2024-06-15 18:46:29 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | wow what, ... are you including something like the "intention of the programmer" in the code here or ...? or are you including something like evaluation strategy dependent execution? |
| 2024-06-15 18:47:35 +0200 | <c_wraith> | No, I mean do you accept a full dump of my computer's registers, TLBs, durable storage, RAM, etc as a program state? |
| 2024-06-15 18:47:47 +0200 | <c_wraith> | because there's some model where that *is* the program state. |
| 2024-06-15 18:48:15 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | c_wraith: well that would be an example of program state, but to be able to know what was in RAM you would need to have evaluated the next instruction |
| 2024-06-15 18:48:37 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | whereas i am trying to ask, can i model the program state before you evaluate in any specific manner |
| 2024-06-15 18:49:35 +0200 | <c_wraith> | sure, with a computer that's turned off. |
| 2024-06-15 18:51:09 +0200 | <c_wraith> | as monochrom says, it's a sort of philosophy question. What's the state of your program before the big bang? |
| 2024-06-15 18:52:42 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | well, on paper? |
| 2024-06-15 18:52:45 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Any model you choose to work in will define starting conditions. I think that's what you're actually going for. |
| 2024-06-15 18:52:53 +0200 | <c_wraith> | But it's model-dependent. |
| 2024-06-15 18:53:01 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Choose a model, and then you have your initial conditions. |
| 2024-06-15 18:53:20 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | okay let me make this concrete: can i model my program state successfully as a tree? |
| 2024-06-15 18:53:28 +0200 | <c_wraith> | a tree of what? |
| 2024-06-15 18:53:35 +0200 | <c_wraith> | in what model? |
| 2024-06-15 18:54:55 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | what is a model, then? |
| 2024-06-15 18:55:40 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Let me make things concrete in a different way. GHC compiles haskell code via a representation it calls STG. In this representation, the code is converted to a graph, and evaluation is graph reduction. |
| 2024-06-15 18:55:59 +0200 | noumenon | (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-06-15 18:56:40 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | right, and this is a "nonstrict evaluation strategy" |
| 2024-06-15 18:56:57 +0200 | <c_wraith> | it is one possible non-strict evaluation strategy |
| 2024-06-15 18:58:35 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | right... so how does the tree AST become a graph? |
| 2024-06-15 18:59:10 +0200 | <c_wraith> | pretty simply, actually. Names are resolved to edges to their definitions. |
| 2024-06-15 18:59:24 +0200 | <c_wraith> | any recursive definition becomes a loop. |
| 2024-06-15 18:59:34 +0200 | <c_wraith> | err. a cycle in the graph. |
| 2024-06-15 18:59:49 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | ah... ok so the tree becomes a graph solely due to recursion? |
| 2024-06-15 19:00:41 +0200 | <c_wraith> | *in that representation of Haskell code*, that's the way things stop being a tree. There are other representations. There are other languages. |
| 2024-06-15 19:00:51 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | so i can reasonably say "a graph originating from a tree plus special self-reference edges"? |
| 2024-06-15 19:02:15 +0200 | <c_wraith> | that's pretty accurate for the way GHC compiles Haskell. |
| 2024-06-15 19:02:33 +0200 | <c_wraith> | But as I keep saying, this is all very context dependent. |
| 2024-06-15 19:03:08 +0200 | <c_wraith> | If you don't specify the context, the model in use, a statement like that isn't meaningful enough to even declare it to be true or false. |
| 2024-06-15 19:03:11 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i mean, graphs are a very general (the most general...?) structure--are there languages which are not well modeled by tree+recursive_edge ? |
| 2024-06-15 19:03:29 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | model is equivalent to reduction rules? |
| 2024-06-15 19:04:14 +0200 | <c_wraith> | a model is a way of specifying the meaning of constructs. |
| 2024-06-15 19:04:33 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | meaning as in how a human interprets things? |
| 2024-06-15 19:04:41 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | as in, semantics? |
| 2024-06-15 19:06:45 +0200 | <c_wraith> | all these terms have too many definitions. Things can get fuzzy. The important part about a model is that it presents a meaning for a formalism, but it doesn't have to be the only meaning. |
| 2024-06-15 19:07:18 +0200 | <c_wraith> | "semantics" is usually defined within a model, in the context of programming. |
| 2024-06-15 19:07:37 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Less so in linguistics. |
| 2024-06-15 19:09:01 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | ..as in the anchoring to the "real world" like the fact that some variable corresponds to an estimate of the temperature of a room, or the degree to which a person is regarded as extroverted? |
| 2024-06-15 19:11:28 +0200 | <c_wraith> | oh, note that the graph STG creates doesn't need recursion to stop being a tree. something as simple as (1 + (2 + 3)) inserts two different edges to the node defining (+). Not a tree anymore! |
| 2024-06-15 19:11:39 +0200 | <monochrom> | Ugh you have no executional model and you intend to have none and yet you call it "real world". |
| 2024-06-15 19:12:31 +0200 | <monochrom> | One more data point for my empirical model that when people emphasize "real world" they are the ones who are detached. |
| 2024-06-15 19:13:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | (Along the same line that if in a debate one side has to say "I have the right/freedom" then it means they don't have any real point to make.) |
| 2024-06-15 19:14:39 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | c_wraith: okay that is an interesting point ... i don't quite see your (1+(2+3)) there, all i see is the AST |
| 2024-06-15 19:15:37 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | would it be like both (1, ptr_to_plus23) and (2 3) pointing at (+) ? |
| 2024-06-15 19:18:30 +0200 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it's something like that. |
| 2024-06-15 19:19:14 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | so... where is ptr_to_plus23? |
| 2024-06-15 19:19:40 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | do you visualize a boundary around (+) (2 3) or something, and ptr_to_plus23 points to that? |
| 2024-06-15 19:20:08 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | because you can't point to (2 3) and you can't point to (+), because neither are individually adequate |
| 2024-06-15 19:22:51 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I mean, it's the same as the AST, except (+) has been changed from an abstract symbol to a function call. The function itself is entered from different call sites, so it's got multiple edges to it in the graph. |
| 2024-06-15 19:23:37 +0200 | myme | (~myme@2a01:799:d5c:5f00:1e2b:ea2d:8288:44e3) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-06-15 19:23:58 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | but ptr_to_plus23 can't point at (+) itself, something must distinguish (+) (2 3) from (+) |
| 2024-06-15 19:27:17 +0200 | <c_wraith> | I mean... it would have been rejected during type checking if it was just (+) |
| 2024-06-15 19:27:37 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | right but with this i am saying that "graph" doesn't quite describe this data structure in the best way |
| 2024-06-15 19:27:50 +0200 | <c_wraith> | (+ 2 3) is just a graph node. |
| 2024-06-15 19:28:20 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | (+ 1 (+ 2 3)), the +s are "different" there,... i think? |
| 2024-06-15 19:28:34 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | whereas it seemed like you wanted to emphasize the sameness of the +? |
| 2024-06-15 19:28:48 +0200 | <c_wraith> | the two +s there do exactly the same thing. |
| 2024-06-15 19:28:49 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i guess we can say referential transparency so the +s are identical? |
| 2024-06-15 19:29:02 +0200 | <geekosaur> | no? the (+)s are the same, there are Ap nodes for the applications |
| 2024-06-15 19:29:25 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | but then, that's just a tree |
| 2024-06-15 19:29:27 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Enter the (+) definition. Determine that both arguments need to be evaluated. Evaluate each argument. Add them together. |
| 2024-06-15 19:29:43 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | whereas you were saying that somehow this was not a tree |
| 2024-06-15 19:30:13 +0200 | <c_wraith> | It's more like Call((+), 1, Call((+), 2, 3)) |
| 2024-06-15 19:30:37 +0200 | <c_wraith> | two different edges to the same (+) |
| 2024-06-15 19:31:38 +0200 | <c_wraith> | the definition of (+) clearly doesn't get duplicated every time you add together two numbers. |
| 2024-06-15 19:31:50 +0200 | <c_wraith> | It's a shared node in the evaluation graph. |
| 2024-06-15 19:32:21 +0200 | dcoutts | (~duncan@oxfd-27-b2-v4wan-164228-cust163.vm42.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-06-15 19:32:35 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i mean unless the program can change the definition of + at runtime... |
| 2024-06-15 19:33:39 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 19:33:40 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-15 19:34:00 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 2024-06-15 19:34:21 +0200 | <c_wraith> | that's not a thing Haskell does. As I said, this is all very context-dependent. (You can shadow names in Haskell, but that doesn't change the value of the name for anything that isn't in the shadowing scope) |
| 2024-06-15 19:35:16 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | is there a nice registration free image pasting service |
| 2024-06-15 19:36:08 +0200 | <geekosaur> | https://0x0.st/ |
| 2024-06-15 19:36:44 +0200 | ethantwardy | (user@user/ethantwardy) |
| 2024-06-15 19:37:10 +0200 | ethantwardy | (user@user/ethantwardy) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-06-15 19:37:36 +0200 | ethantwardy | (user@user/ethantwardy) |
| 2024-06-15 19:39:35 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | https://0x0.st/XcEN.png <-- here is what i see |
| 2024-06-15 19:44:07 +0200 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-06-15 19:45:44 +0200 | <dolio> | Depending on how all you're thinking of things, when you do `let x = 2 + 2 in x + x`, the graph pointing to x twice matters because when 2+2 gets replaced by 4, it only needs to happen once. |
| 2024-06-15 19:46:25 +0200 | <dolio> | Whether you consider that 'code' is the question. |
| 2024-06-15 19:46:51 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | that's probably code? i guess you are pointing out that i might have some io here and you don't know how that mixes in? |
| 2024-06-15 19:48:12 +0200 | <dolio> | No, there's no i/o. It's just that `let x = 2 + 2 in x + x` reduces like `let x = 4 in x + x` → `4 + 4` → `8` |
| 2024-06-15 19:49:00 +0200 | <dolio> | But you could draw it as a graph, instead of the textual `let` with names. |
| 2024-06-15 19:49:27 +0200 | <dolio> | The outer + points to the same `2+2` node twice. |
| 2024-06-15 19:49:57 +0200 | <dolio> | So when that 2+2 is replaced by 4, it's replaced everywhere. |
| 2024-06-15 19:50:27 +0200 | <monochrom> | Or rather, there is only one thing replaced, but it's visible everywhere. |
| 2024-06-15 19:51:45 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i see |
| 2024-06-15 19:52:10 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | very unfortunately i need to run but i would like to have a really clear picture of this at some point |
| 2024-06-15 19:53:06 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i'll look at lchaskell in case folks have things to add here |
| 2024-06-15 19:53:09 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-15 19:53:51 +0200 | rustisafungus | (~segfaultf@23-93-189-95.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) |
| 2024-06-15 19:54:26 +0200 | <rustisafungus> | i'll look at lchaskell later in case folks have things to add here |
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