2024/05/01

2024-05-01 00:01:18 +0200 <mauke> ich begreif es auch nicht
2024-05-01 00:04:16 +0200Square3(~Square4@user/square)
2024-05-01 00:07:15 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2024-05-01 00:46:06 +0200Nixkernal(~Nixkernal@240.17.194.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-05-01 00:46:26 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-05-01 00:53:35 +0200 <EvanR> int-e, i met a guy in seattle recently who is making and selling neon signs
2024-05-01 00:53:51 +0200 <EvanR> bars around here still have a lot of em xD
2024-05-01 00:58:50 +0200 <waldo> you know what they will do then
2024-05-01 00:58:59 +0200 <waldo> nuke the subduction zone
2024-05-01 01:04:42 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
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2024-05-01 01:30:19 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-05-01 01:43:07 +0200 <jackdk> I'm trying to find a blog post where the author (ab?)used the typeclass system to track the set of "resources" (or was it tables?) that a function needed to do its work. From memory it it involved the use of `Dict` and some evil coercions to satisfy different type classes with empty dictionaries, and may have been posted within the last year or so? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
2024-05-01 01:47:27 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-05-01 01:49:48 +0200 <[Leary]> jackdk: I don't know it, but I recall the paper 'The Foil: Capture-Avoiding Substitution With No Sharp Edges' describes similar techniques for tracking name freshness.
2024-05-01 01:52:36 +0200 <geekosaur> I find https://prophetlabs.de/posts/unsafeCoerceDict.html but doesn't quite sound like the same thing
2024-05-01 01:52:41 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2024-05-01 02:03:32 +0200lol_jcarpenter2
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2024-05-01 02:04:38 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-05-01 02:08:23 +0200 <jackdk> Thanks but it's neither of those. It was more like a typelevel answer to the question "what resources is this function going to touch?" in a way that let you accumulate the names in a constraint and pull them down to the value level to write out a policy or equivalent
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2024-05-01 02:44:57 +0200whatsupdoc(uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
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2024-05-01 02:51:02 +0200 <jackdk> It was https://reasonablypolymorphic.com/blog/abusing-constraints/
2024-05-01 02:53:14 +0200talismanick(~user@2601:644:937c:ed10::ae5)
2024-05-01 02:55:23 +0200 <talismanick> If a free monad is a tree of expressions, is there a DAG analogue?
2024-05-01 02:57:02 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, right, I saw that a few months ago
2024-05-01 03:00:13 +0200 <geekosaur> talismanick, isn't it actually a DAG anyway? cycles would severely limit the monads you could use to "interpret" it
2024-05-01 03:02:05 +0200pointlessslippe1(~pointless@212.82.82.3) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-05-01 03:09:19 +0200 <ski> hmm .. i guess you could have an operation that requires that its opeands "overlap" (have some common substructures), in some particular fashion. so a recursive decomposition of a problem (corresponding to matching on such a constructor operation) would then naturally allow dynamic programming (iow a DAG, rather than a tree, recursive decomposition/structuring of the original problem), presumably
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2024-05-01 03:11:26 +0200 <c_wraith> You don't need any special structure for that, though
2024-05-01 03:11:30 +0200 <c_wraith> You just need sharing.
2024-05-01 03:14:28 +0200 <ski> yea, but how do you detect, or enforce, the sharing, of the iput structure, to justify the sharing of the output computation ?
2024-05-01 03:14:36 +0200 <ski> s/iput/input/
2024-05-01 03:14:50 +0200 <c_wraith> pick f carefully.
2024-05-01 03:15:01 +0200 <c_wraith> you can embed basically anything you want into f
2024-05-01 03:15:04 +0200 <ski> iow, i'm thinking of something like a catamorphism
2024-05-01 03:15:53 +0200waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2024-05-01 03:18:29 +0200 <ski> given an array/vector with indices from `0' to `n-1' (incl.), we could decompose this into one slice from `0' to `n-2' and one from `1' to `n-1', guaranteed to overlap on the `1' to `n-2' part. eventually, we'd get down to singleton slices, which could be the base case of a dynamic programming, then results percolating back up in a "lattive"-like structure, rather than a tree, proper, thereby taking
2024-05-01 03:18:35 +0200 <ski> advantage of the sharing
2024-05-01 03:23:41 +0200 <talismanick> I'm feeling a little stupid, then, trying to understand https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zsdd/docs/Data-Diagram.html
2024-05-01 03:24:25 +0200 <ski> basically, we have, if `Just (ar01,ar12) = decompose ar012', `Just (ar0,ar1a) = decompose ar01' and `Just (ar1b,ar2) = decompose ar12', then `ar1a = ar1b'
2024-05-01 03:26:03 +0200 <talismanick> because, if one can assume "maximal sharing", I feel like I can see in my head how a BDD might be implemented with a (real) free monad
2024-05-01 03:27:48 +0200otto_s(~user@p4ff27e40.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-05-01 03:29:11 +0200 <ski> or, in terms of composition, if `Compose (Compose ar0 ar1a) (Compose ar1b ar2) = ar012', then `ar1a = ar1b'. so we have something like `Compose :: (ar0 :: Slice n) -> (ar1 :: Slice n) -> Agree ar0 ar1 => Slice (1+n)', where `Agree (Singleton x) (Singleton y)' as well as `(ar1a = ar1b) => Agree (Compose ar0 ar1a) (Compose ar1b ar2)' (where `Agree :: Slice n -> Slice n -> Constraint')
2024-05-01 03:29:12 +0200otto_s(~user@p4ff27c65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-05-01 03:29:18 +0200 <talismanick> is it the kind of thing where it becomes obvious when you write it down?
2024-05-01 03:30:28 +0200 <ski> hm, is "BDD" Binary Decision Diagram ?
2024-05-01 03:31:09 +0200 <talismanick> yeah
2024-05-01 03:31:19 +0200skidoesn't recall what those re
2024-05-01 03:31:22 +0200 <ski> s/re/are/
2024-05-01 03:31:46 +0200 <talismanick> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_decision_diagram
2024-05-01 03:32:04 +0200 <talismanick> kind of like SAT solving
2024-05-01 03:36:16 +0200 <talismanick> Is the problem is that laziness memoizes and shares for you without asking, making every tree equivalent to a DAG but not the one you want?
2024-05-01 03:38:18 +0200 <c_wraith> well, no. The problem is sharing only happens when explicitly introduced, and doing that is going to require bookkeeping. And the memory cost of that bookkeeping is ridiculous.
2024-05-01 03:43:11 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2)
2024-05-01 03:46:30 +0200ski. o O ( "BDD-Based Deductive Databasee" <https://bddbddb.sourceforge.net/> ; "Soufflé - A Datalog Synthesis Tool for Static Analysis" <https://souffle-lang.github.io> )
2024-05-01 03:47:32 +0200 <ski> there's also a problem that when traversing a structure with sharing, producing a new parallel structure, that would normally lose all sharing
2024-05-01 03:49:07 +0200 <ski> (what i was thinking about was encoding the sharing in the type, or rather, in the decomposition process, making it mandatory, thereby making sure it will happen in the result as well)
2024-05-01 03:49:59 +0200 <ski> (not clear how would apply something like that to BDDs, though)
2024-05-01 03:50:54 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-05-01 03:59:28 +0200 <talismanick> ski: I think Souffle now uses a concurrent B-tree/trie hybrid (lexicographically-ordered B-tree?)
2024-05-01 03:59:41 +0200 <talismanick> found it: https://souffle-lang.github.io/pdf/pmam19.pdf
2024-05-01 04:01:01 +0200 <c_wraith> B-trees are already lexicographically ordered. I'm betting it's more like adjusting the number of bits in a node in order keep the fan-out within particular bounds.
2024-05-01 04:01:17 +0200 <c_wraith> Which... sounds sorta like Patricia Tries, actually.
2024-05-01 04:02:45 +0200 <c_wraith> Ah, not quite. Patricia tries have a fixed fanout of 2
2024-05-01 04:05:28 +0200skionly heard someone mention Soufflé the other week, recognized the mention of BDDBDDB, but hasn't looked at it
2024-05-01 04:08:09 +0200 <talismanick> c_wraith: the cost of bookkeeping is prohibitive for free monads in general, you mean?
2024-05-01 04:09:58 +0200 <talismanick> The reduction of a Boolean function is canonical (up to variable ordering), so maybe it's not a problem in this case...
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2024-05-01 04:11:54 +0200 <talismanick> It's probably be none-too-expensive to preface the interpreter with the reduction rules, so long as the free monad/binary decision tree is built and consumed incrementally, right?
2024-05-01 04:12:09 +0200 <c_wraith> no, I mean that if a problem like this is hard, there are just a *lot* of distinct subproblems.
2024-05-01 04:13:50 +0200Katarushisu1(~Katarushi@finc-20-b2-v4wan-169598-cust1799.vm7.cable.virginm.net)
2024-05-01 04:17:42 +0200Axman4765(~Axman6@user/axman6)
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2024-05-01 07:14:21 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2024-05-01 07:14:57 +0200 <Axman6> Hello #haskellers, can I ask a favour of someone on Matrix? Can you just say some things in here so I can see if I've fixed something that's breaking for me in glirc. I probably need to see a few messages to know if it's improved
2024-05-01 07:16:15 +0200Axma55792(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2024-05-01 07:16:22 +0200Axma55792Bynbo7
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2024-05-01 07:43:15 +0200 <haskellbridge> <g​eekosaur> does this help?
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2024-05-01 09:09:32 +0200 <[exa]> Axman6: might be the case that there's a matrix-specific channel with plenty of people hyperactive about this topic
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2024-05-01 10:32:05 +0200hseg(~gesh@77.137.75.224)
2024-05-01 10:34:15 +0200 <hseg> Hi. I'm packaging some haskell programs, and am planning to build them with stack. Other than manually editing stack.yaml, is there a way to set the snapshot to lts-22.19+ghc-9.6.5 ?
2024-05-01 10:34:53 +0200 <hseg> I know I can set the lts part by stack config set resolver lts-22.19, but does stack not have a way to write the compiler version to use?
2024-05-01 10:36:24 +0200 <hseg> (alternatively, where can I track progress on cutting an lts using ghc 9.6.5? It has a bugfix that's critical on my system)
2024-05-01 10:37:09 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar)
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2024-05-01 11:53:33 +0200 <lyxia> hseg: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#compiler
2024-05-01 11:57:58 +0200L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-05-01 12:09:08 +0200 <hseg> lyxia: thanks! In hindsight, it makes sense that such an off-the-beaten-path configuration would need manual intervention
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2024-05-01 17:40:37 +0200 <shapr> does anyone know how hackage calculates test coverage % ?
2024-05-01 17:40:49 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-001-013-250.176.1.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-05-01 17:42:25 +0200 <shapr> aha, I think I found it
2024-05-01 17:43:07 +0200 <shapr> yup, I think it's https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/blob/master/exes/BuildClient.hs#L594
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2024-05-01 18:43:40 +0200 <yin> /reconnect
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2024-05-01 19:05:38 +0200 <gaff> I have some code here https://goonlinetools.com/snapshot/code/#r7dkw4j84woahyak9mbns5 that has 2 ways to define Applicative instance for EitherT. I would like to know if there is any difference between the two definitions for <*>.
2024-05-01 19:07:32 +0200hseg(~gesh@77.137.75.224)
2024-05-01 19:07:59 +0200 <hseg> Using stack with allow-newer, how can I get stack to dump the build plan it computed?
2024-05-01 19:09:42 +0200 <gaff> Appreciate any help.
2024-05-01 19:16:22 +0200danza(~francesco@151.57.139.226) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2024-05-01 19:22:55 +0200 <mauke> gaff: I think it would depend on how >>= and <*> are defined for m
2024-05-01 19:25:35 +0200 <gaff> mauke: I am not clear why you are saying so. In any case, let us assume `m` is `StateT s Identity`.
2024-05-01 19:26:24 +0200danza(~francesco@151.57.139.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-05-01 19:28:27 +0200k``(~k``@152.1.137.158)
2024-05-01 19:28:31 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-05-01 19:29:18 +0200 <k``> Is there any particular reason that `Data.Bits.shiftR` is undefined for shifts greater than `bitSize`, but `Data.Bits.shiftL` is not?
2024-05-01 19:29:52 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-05-01 19:30:15 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-001-013-250.176.1.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-05-01 19:33:04 +0200 <geekosaur> whether it's meaningful depends on the type. consider `Integer`
2024-05-01 19:33:49 +0200 <k``> It's not relevant to `Integer`.
2024-05-01 19:33:49 +0200 <geekosaur> also, signed vs. unsigned occurs to me as a potential problem, but I haven't looked to see if it's relevant
2024-05-01 19:34:53 +0200 <k``> (I assume that when it describes comparing things to `bitSize`, it means only for types where `bitSize` is a nonbottom, nonnegative value.)
2024-05-01 19:34:55 +0200hseg(~gesh@77.137.75.224) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-05-01 19:38:10 +0200 <geekosaur> I could also see it depending on ISA: whether shift-right is logical (0 shifts in) or arithmetic (carry bit shifts in)
2024-05-01 19:40:22 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-001-013-250.176.1.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-05-01 19:40:39 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-05-01 19:42:10 +0200 <lyxia> gaff: the second either always runs the two computations
2024-05-01 19:43:34 +0200 <lyxia> gaff: let m = EitherT (modify (+ 1) >> pure (Left ())) :: EitherT () (State Int) () in m *> m
2024-05-01 19:44:35 +0200 <geekosaur> sorry, that'd be per bit. I wonder if some ISA simply rejects shifts > bitSize
2024-05-01 19:44:51 +0200 <geekosaur> (i.e. traps)
2024-05-01 19:44:53 +0200 <Franciman> i miss haskell's syntax T.T
2024-05-01 19:45:06 +0200 <Franciman> ocaml's one is a pain sometimes
2024-05-01 19:46:39 +0200 <gaff> lyxia: Not sure what you are saying there.
2024-05-01 19:52:21 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2024-05-01 19:52:46 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2024-05-01 19:53:02 +0200Bynbo7(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-05-01 19:53:03 +0200 <geekosaur> "Also, Intel's manual[1] states that the results are undefined when cnt is greater than the operand size, but at least for 32- and 64-bit data sizes it has been observed that shift operations are performed by (cnt mod n), with n being the data size."
2024-05-01 19:53:08 +0200Axma89310(~Axman6@user/axman6)
2024-05-01 19:54:10 +0200 <geekosaur> so yeh, it comes down to the ISA
2024-05-01 19:54:54 +0200 <geekosaur> k`` ^^
2024-05-01 19:57:37 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-05-01 19:58:04 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-05-01 19:59:48 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2024-05-01 20:04:02 +0200hseg(~gesh@77.137.75.224)
2024-05-01 20:05:34 +0200gaff(~gaff@49.207.212.165) ()
2024-05-01 20:05:51 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-05-01 20:11:29 +0200 <justsomeguy> What do you guys think of this monad video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2w45qRc3aU ?
2024-05-01 20:12:31 +0200 <ncf> i'm sure it's excellent since it starts with "the absolute best"
2024-05-01 20:13:20 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-05-01 20:17:40 +0200 <monochrom> How long is it?
2024-05-01 20:20:48 +0200 <dolio> 15 minutes
2024-05-01 20:21:52 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-05-01 20:24:17 +0200 <probie> I think this is a better monad video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
2024-05-01 20:24:55 +0200 <dolio> Seconded.
2024-05-01 20:24:57 +0200 <k``> Seems like the processor issues make sense for `unsafeShiftR`, but maybe not `shiftR`. And the inconsistency between R and L is still unexplained...
2024-05-01 20:27:19 +0200mrmr1553343(~mrmr@user/mrmr)
2024-05-01 20:29:27 +0200 <monochrom> Rick Astley actually has his own youtube channel and posts his official MVs. I be damned.
2024-05-01 20:29:58 +0200 <c_wraith> he's even released new stuff recently. and it's quite good.
2024-05-01 20:30:00 +0200danza(~francesco@151.19.252.90)
2024-05-01 20:30:52 +0200 <ncf> i knew he was never gonna let me down
2024-05-01 20:30:54 +0200 <geekosaur> the docs look reversed for unsafeShiftR vs. shiftR (compare shiftL)
2024-05-01 20:32:46 +0200 <k``> Oh wow. Looks like it's a documentation issue...
2024-05-01 20:33:53 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2024-05-01 20:34:23 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-05-01 20:35:55 +0200 <k``> > shiftL 1 64 :: Word64
2024-05-01 20:35:56 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2024-05-01 20:36:20 +0200 <k``> > shiftL 1 64 :: Int64
2024-05-01 20:36:21 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2024-05-01 20:36:53 +0200 <k``> shiftL 1 128 :: Int
2024-05-01 20:37:16 +0200 <k``> > shiftL 1 128 :: Int -- Simon says
2024-05-01 20:37:17 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2024-05-01 20:37:32 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-05-01 20:37:37 +0200 <k``> > shiftR 1 128 :: Int
2024-05-01 20:37:38 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2024-05-01 20:38:03 +0200 <k``> > bit 128 :: Int
2024-05-01 20:38:05 +0200 <lambdabot> 0
2024-05-01 20:38:12 +0200 <k``> Cool.
2024-05-01 20:39:23 +0200dfip^(~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-05-01 20:40:53 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-05-01 20:50:16 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-05-01 20:51:07 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)