2026/06/27

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2026-06-27 00:32:48 +0000dy(sid3438@user/dy) \\\\\
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2026-06-27 00:34:57 +0000edmundnoble_(sid229620@id-229620.helmsley.irccloud.com) edmundnoble_
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2026-06-27 04:56:06 +0000ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
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2026-06-27 05:16:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-27 05:27:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 05:40:49 +0000 <remexre> did hackage just go down? getting 503s...
2026-06-27 05:43:41 +0000 <mauke> works here, some pages slow
2026-06-27 05:45:26 +0000 <remexre> hm, e.g. https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/kdl-hs-1.1.1/docs/KDL-Decoder-Monad.html#t:NodeDecoder takes like 15s to load, then gives me a Varnish 503
2026-06-27 05:45:40 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-27 05:55:37 +0000humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2026-06-27 05:55:45 +0000 <remexre> oh, back now /shrug
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2026-06-27 06:05:41 +0000takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
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2026-06-27 06:09:14 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~)
2026-06-27 06:15:02 +0000divlamir_(~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir
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2026-06-27 08:13:13 +0000acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e74def24dcde6998942b8594.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2026-06-27 08:13:23 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e74def24dcde6998942b8594.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2026-06-27 08:13:53 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-06-27 08:15:03 +0000divlamir_(~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir
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2026-06-27 08:37:08 +0000 <Athas> While waiting for CI to run, I just want to state that haskell-ci is an excellent tool.
2026-06-27 08:40:56 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-06-27 08:44:40 +0000Pozyomka_Pozyomka
2026-06-27 08:51:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-27 09:13:41 +0000bggd_(~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:3b75:3ac0:cdf0:a855)
2026-06-27 09:13:55 +0000Sgeo_(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-27 09:18:54 +0000anpad(~pandeyan@user/anpad) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in)
2026-06-27 09:20:51 +0000 <probie> remexre: welcome to the modern web, where relatively small but important things are constantly DOSed as people train AI
2026-06-27 09:22:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 09:24:58 +0000skum(~skum@user/skum) (Quit: WeeChat 4.9.1)
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2026-06-27 10:58:20 +0000kimiamania(~768865ec@user/kimiamania) (Quit: PegeLinux)
2026-06-27 11:00:24 +0000kimiamania(~768865ec@user/kimiamania) kimiamania
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2026-06-27 11:02:56 +0000tristanC(~tristanC@97-113-128-188.tukw.qwest.net) (Changing host)
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2026-06-27 11:07:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-27 11:17:41 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:8dd6:e004:66da:5462) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2026-06-27 15:55:21 +0000monochrom(~trebla@216.138.220.146) monochrom
2026-06-27 15:56:53 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-27 15:57:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-27 16:13:52 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-27 16:19:16 +0000 <remexre> probie: :sobbing:
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2026-06-27 17:49:01 +0000 <fgarcia> pretty much
2026-06-27 17:52:15 +0000schuelermine(~Thunderbi@user/schuelermine) schuelermine
2026-06-27 17:59:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-27 18:12:58 +0000 <monochrom> I have discovered a great pun! Let F be a functor (Context: I am coding up things about F-algebras). We can define "newtype Mu = Ctor (F Mu)". I name the bijection par make :: F Mu -> Mu, exam :: Mu -> F Mu. Note how they are almost reverse spellings of each other! I am also tempted to replace k and x by chi, then they would be exact reverses!
2026-06-27 18:17:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 18:20:08 +0000 <tomsmeding> at some cost to the pronunciation :p
2026-06-27 18:21:24 +0000 <dolio> It's pronounced like latex.
2026-06-27 18:21:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-27 18:23:21 +0000mrmonday(~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) (Quit: .)
2026-06-27 18:25:40 +0000mrmonday(~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) mrmonday
2026-06-27 18:26:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: you could also call them maske and eksam; you could see "make" as "masking" the constructors of F, kinda
2026-06-27 18:27:06 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
2026-06-27 18:27:41 +0000 <monochrom> heh
2026-06-27 18:28:13 +0000 <fgarcia> would INTERCAL also work?
2026-06-27 18:30:54 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026-06-27 18:32:49 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2026-06-27 18:32:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 18:35:03 +0000 <schuelermine> monochrom: I’m surprised you can do recursive newtype like that
2026-06-27 18:36:44 +0000maerwald(~maerwald@user/maerwald) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-27 18:37:22 +0000maerwald(~maerwald@mail.hasufell.de)
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2026-06-27 18:37:45 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: why are you surprised?
2026-06-27 18:38:29 +0000 <monochrom> Because System F doesn't allow it. (E.g., Dhall.) :)
2026-06-27 18:38:34 +0000mrmonday(~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) (Quit: .)
2026-06-27 18:39:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> Haskell is a pure language, all you need is the program, what even is execution?
2026-06-27 18:39:25 +0000 <schuelermine> well, because newtype vs. data is (as far as I understand) about having the same memory representation of the newtype as the underlying type, so a recursive newtype is saying the type has the same memory representation as itself
2026-06-27 18:39:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> And if execution is irrelevant, who cares about termination >:D
2026-06-27 18:39:35 +0000 <monochrom> I think I was also slightly surprised for 5 seconds the first time I saw someone doing it (or maybe I went ahead to try) way back then.
2026-06-27 18:39:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: that would be `newtype T = Ctor T`
2026-06-27 18:40:04 +0000 <schuelermine> yeah? that works too
2026-06-27 18:40:09 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-27 18:40:11 +0000 <schuelermine> not that much different from your example
2026-06-27 18:40:25 +0000 <schuelermine> you could e.g. define type family F x where F x = x
2026-06-27 18:40:32 +0000mrmonday(~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) mrmonday
2026-06-27 18:40:32 +0000 <tomsmeding> but it is very different! Every value of my T has an undefined or an infinite loop somewhere
2026-06-27 18:40:50 +0000 <tomsmeding> whereas Mu is very useful, if F is not the identity
2026-06-27 18:41:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> you're right that T is a special case of Mu
2026-06-27 18:41:02 +0000 <schuelermine> true
2026-06-27 18:41:07 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2026-06-27 18:41:17 +0000 <schuelermine> but still, the type Mu here is a type that only exists as thunks
2026-06-27 18:41:20 +0000 <schuelermine> it has no values
2026-06-27 18:41:22 +0000 <mauke> that's just newtype Void = V Void
2026-06-27 18:41:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> noi
2026-06-27 18:41:26 +0000 <mauke> before we had nullary data
2026-06-27 18:41:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> *no
2026-06-27 18:41:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> type F a = Int
2026-06-27 18:41:53 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah my F is like "F r = 1 + Int x F" or "data F r = Nil | Node Int r".
2026-06-27 18:41:55 +0000 <schuelermine> oh true
2026-06-27 18:42:03 +0000 <schuelermine> then I don’t get why newtype is allowed there
2026-06-27 18:42:09 +0000traxex(traxex@user/traxex) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-06-27 18:42:12 +0000 <mauke> isn't that just open recursion with type-level fix?
2026-06-27 18:42:13 +0000 <schuelermine> instead of data
2026-06-27 18:42:39 +0000 <schuelermine> like, say type family F x where F x = [x]
2026-06-27 18:42:46 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: not having a runtime representation to destruct is only a problem if you need that runtime representation to figure out what value you have in hand
2026-06-27 18:42:51 +0000 <schuelermine> then we have newtype Mu = Ctor [Mu]
2026-06-27 18:43:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> because a newtype has only one constructor, you already know what you have in hand, so no need to add a tag
2026-06-27 18:43:06 +0000 <schuelermine> so now newtype is saying “Mu has the same in-memory representation as [Mu]”
2026-06-27 18:43:11 +0000 <mauke> that's grounded
2026-06-27 18:43:18 +0000 <mauke> [] has steps inside
2026-06-27 18:43:28 +0000 <monochrom> Language rules are usually one step away from useful motivations, i.e., allow more than realistic applications need, for simplicity and generality.
2026-06-27 18:43:52 +0000 <monochrom> For example most people believe that "let in 1" is useless but it's allowed because why not.
2026-06-27 18:44:05 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: I agree it's a bit strange, but there is no fundamental problem with implementing it, it just works
2026-06-27 18:44:25 +0000 <mauke> Ctor [Ctor [], Ctor []]
2026-06-27 18:44:30 +0000 <schuelermine> true
2026-06-27 18:44:35 +0000 <monochrom> "newtype T = Ctor T" is also pretty useless but it is much simpler to have a rule "if you have just one ctor one field, you may use newtype".
2026-06-27 18:44:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> right, being useless is not necessarily a good reason to make it disallowed
2026-06-27 18:45:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> (if making it disallowed would mean introducing a special case)
2026-06-27 18:45:41 +0000 <monochrom> In fact if you disallow "let in 1" for example, you are just making the lives of compiler writers harder, for not good reason except stupid ideologies.
2026-06-27 18:46:16 +0000 <tomsmeding> `let in 1` actually has a use case though! Or rather, `let in _` has
2026-06-27 18:46:19 +0000 <monochrom> (They have to write two extra lines of code to check non-emptiness and emit an error message)
2026-06-27 18:46:44 +0000 <tomsmeding> it allows you to write `let` without HLS blundering into a parse error and destroying all the other diagnostics in the module.
2026-06-27 18:46:44 +0000 <schuelermine> what did the Haskell messenger knocking on the door say? let in let in ()
2026-06-27 18:47:05 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah plus some users who have programs that generate Haskell code also would have to write extra code to "simplify" "let in 1" to "1".
2026-06-27 18:47:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: heh
2026-06-27 18:47:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> > do let in do let in ()
2026-06-27 18:47:24 +0000 <lambdabot> ()
2026-06-27 18:47:44 +0000 <schuelermine> is "do" here lambdabot syntax or a do block
2026-06-27 18:47:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> normal do block
2026-06-27 18:47:48 +0000 <monochrom> People who want to ban "useless" code can please switch to Python.
2026-06-27 18:47:51 +0000 <tomsmeding> > do do do do do do do 42
2026-06-27 18:47:51 +0000 <geekosaur> do block
2026-06-27 18:47:52 +0000 <lambdabot> 42
2026-06-27 18:48:01 +0000 <geekosaur> that is, expression syntax
2026-06-27 18:48:06 +0000 <mauke> hah
2026-06-27 18:48:07 +0000 <tomsmeding> monochrom: python bans even less than haskell lol
2026-06-27 18:48:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 18:48:19 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2026-06-27 18:48:21 +0000 <mauke> perl also allows empty declarations: my (); # declare zero variables
2026-06-27 18:49:15 +0000 <schuelermine> > baby shark $ do do do do do do pure () where { shark = (); baby = const id }
2026-06-27 18:49:16 +0000 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:40: error: parse error on input `where'
2026-06-27 18:49:48 +0000 <tomsmeding> 'where' is not an expression
2026-06-27 18:49:49 +0000 <mauke> 'where' attaches to declarations only, not expressions
2026-06-27 18:49:54 +0000 <geekosaur> where is declaration syntax, not expression
2026-06-27 18:50:12 +0000 <tomsmeding> @quote counterpoint
2026-06-27 18:50:12 +0000 <schuelermine> true
2026-06-27 18:50:12 +0000 <lambdabot> No quotes match. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
2026-06-27 18:50:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> @quote counterp
2026-06-27 18:50:23 +0000 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Take a stress pill and think things over.
2026-06-27 18:50:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> meh
2026-06-27 18:50:30 +0000 <geekosaur> @where contrapunctal
2026-06-27 18:50:31 +0000 <lambdabot> I know nothing about contrapunctal.
2026-06-27 18:50:31 +0000 <mauke> @quote fugue
2026-06-27 18:50:31 +0000 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
2026-06-27 18:50:37 +0000 <monochrom> Fortunately, Curry allows "x where x=1" in REPL. >:)
2026-06-27 18:50:57 +0000 <monochrom> haha I couldn't spell contrapunctual
2026-06-27 18:50:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> mauke++
2026-06-27 18:50:57 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-27 18:51:11 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2026-06-27 18:51:38 +0000 <schuelermine> geekosaur: it’s contrapuntal
2026-06-27 18:51:50 +0000 <mauke> that's the correct spelling
2026-06-27 18:51:50 +0000 <tomsmeding> english can't spell contrapunctual
2026-06-27 18:52:19 +0000 <monochrom> Oh! I spelled it right! I must have looked it up to make sure back then.
2026-06-27 18:52:21 +0000 <mauke> tomsmeding: I did my testing in /query first :-)
2026-06-27 18:52:22 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026-06-27 18:53:20 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2026-06-27 18:55:28 +0000 <schuelermine> is there a way you can check the current value of options in GHCi?
2026-06-27 18:55:54 +0000 <geekosaur> :set / :seti
2026-06-27 18:55:59 +0000 <geekosaur> er, :show
2026-06-27 18:57:06 +0000 <schuelermine> unfortuantely that doesn’t work
2026-06-27 18:57:07 +0000 <mauke> :set works
2026-06-27 18:57:14 +0000 <schuelermine> e.g. :show local-config won’t show anything
2026-06-27 18:57:18 +0000 <mauke> well, depends on what you mean by options
2026-06-27 18:57:19 +0000 <schuelermine> neither will :set local-config
2026-06-27 18:57:22 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-06-27 18:58:05 +0000 <mauke> yeah, that might be missing
2026-06-27 18:58:33 +0000 <tomsmeding> I think those things are hardcoded things in ghci that aren't neatly in any one list to be outputted
2026-06-27 18:58:48 +0000 <schuelermine> on an unrelated note, does anyone know a good alternative to the Kitty terminal on Linux
2026-06-27 18:59:03 +0000 <schuelermine> I’ve tried Wezterm and it’s kinda not that great
2026-06-27 18:59:19 +0000 <tomsmeding> better in what way?
2026-06-27 18:59:28 +0000 <schuelermine> no not better
2026-06-27 18:59:30 +0000 <schuelermine> just different
2026-06-27 18:59:33 +0000 <schuelermine> im terminalhopping
2026-06-27 19:00:00 +0000 <tomsmeding> gnome-terminal? alacritty? foot?
2026-06-27 19:00:12 +0000 <schuelermine> haven’t tried alacritty, thanks
2026-06-27 19:00:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 19:00:54 +0000 <mauke> I'm using xfce4-terminal
2026-06-27 19:00:57 +0000 <mauke> seems to be all right
2026-06-27 19:02:49 +0000 <tomsmeding> there's also st if you like that kind of thing :p
2026-06-27 19:04:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> schuelermine: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/i3/i3/refs/heads/next/i3-sensible-terminal
2026-06-27 19:05:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> ghostty seems to have linux support these days
2026-06-27 19:05:29 +0000 <schuelermine> interesting
2026-06-27 19:05:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-06-27 19:05:45 +0000jathan(~jathan@69.61.93.38) jathan
2026-06-27 19:07:17 +0000tomsmedingruns st with tmux
2026-06-27 19:07:41 +0000 <fgarcia> is there a specific thing you're looking for?
2026-06-27 19:08:24 +0000 <fgarcia> for speed, gnome-terminal is probably good. i use alacritty and tmux and nearly forgot their names because of how much it stays out of my way
2026-06-27 19:10:26 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) spew
2026-06-27 19:12:49 +0000 <schuelermine> fgarcia: no; my reason for moving off kitty is mostly that they started using AI in development and I kinda don’t like that
2026-06-27 19:13:41 +0000 <schuelermine> im gonna try foot now
2026-06-27 19:13:47 +0000 <schuelermine> it doesn’t have tabs but whatever
2026-06-27 19:15:38 +0000 <fgarcia> schuelermine: would Ghostty be something that interests you?
2026-06-27 19:15:43 +0000ouilemur(~jgmerritt@user/ouilemur) (Quit: WeeChat 4.9.2)
2026-06-27 19:15:49 +0000 <schuelermine> I don’t know much about Ghostty
2026-06-27 19:16:06 +0000 <mauke> mine has tabs, but I don't use them
2026-06-27 19:18:11 +0000ephapticpulse(~user@user/ephapticpulse) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026-06-27 19:18:30 +0000merijn(~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn
2026-06-27 19:19:58 +0000 <schuelermine> I use tabs but really inconsistently
2026-06-27 19:19:59 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2026-06-27 19:20:03 +0000 <fgarcia> schuelermine: i hope another person who knows can recommend something, i looked into it a little more https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/commit/f00de7ee4b9bbc5a0fb5f4c06755780c773a0f5e
2026-06-27 19:20:21 +0000 <schuelermine> like I tend to open a million windows when I should just use tabs
2026-06-27 19:20:23 +0000 <schuelermine> so I think with foot
2026-06-27 19:20:27 +0000 <schuelermine> I’ll just use windows
2026-06-27 19:20:32 +0000 <schuelermine> tabs are a misfeature anyways
2026-06-27 19:20:39 +0000 <schuelermine> applications should never have started implementing tabs
2026-06-27 19:20:42 +0000 <schuelermine> that’s a window manager thing
2026-06-27 19:20:47 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2026-06-27 19:20:49 +0000fgarciahides tmux
2026-06-27 19:20:57 +0000tomsmedingwas going to say: with some window managers you can use their tabs :p
2026-06-27 19:21:56 +0000 <schuelermine> I think there should be a protocol so apps that implement their own tabs can cooperate with WM tabs
2026-06-27 19:22:05 +0000 <schuelermine> so like e.g. you could put a foreign application into a browser tab
2026-06-27 19:22:14 +0000 <schuelermine> or you could tear off a browser tab and put it into a WM tab group
2026-06-27 19:22:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-27 19:22:54 +0000ft(~ft@p508db6b1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-27 19:24:49 +0000ft(~ft@p4fc2a60a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-06-27 19:25:18 +0000_________(~nobody@user/noodly) _________
2026-06-27 19:27:32 +0000 <fgarcia> i could have sworn there is a WM that kind of does that but i can't find the name
2026-06-27 19:29:12 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-06-27 19:31:05 +0000 <schuelermine> Haiku’s?
2026-06-27 19:34:01 +0000 <dcb> stacking multiple windows under the same space?
2026-06-27 19:34:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-27 19:36:12 +0000 <schuelermine> https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/gui.html
2026-06-27 19:39:50 +0000 <dcb> like how i3 can put a window container in a tabbed layout? ( e.g.: https://i3wm.org/docs/userguide.html#_changing_the_container_layout )
2026-06-27 19:41:07 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2026-06-27 19:43:50 +0000ft(~ft@p3e9bc08f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-06-27 19:50:29 +0000 <fgarcia> i can't find any pictures of people using Pekwm tabs :( https://old.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/90gx5u/xfce4_beosr5xfce/
2026-06-27 19:51:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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