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2026-06-02 06:14:50 +0000Square3(~Square4@user/square) Square
2026-06-02 06:19:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-02 06:19:52 +0000 <jj> a package i want to use is two years and three minor versions out of date on hackage; who should i bug about this? the package maintainer, or someone from hackage?
2026-06-02 06:21:13 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
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2026-06-02 06:43:59 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-170-219.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) CiaoSen
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2026-06-02 06:51:00 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-02 06:52:47 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
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2026-06-02 06:59:37 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym
2026-06-02 07:03:51 +0000 <[exa]> jj: send an issue to the repo
2026-06-02 07:04:35 +0000 <[exa]> if the maintainer is unresponsive there's workflows to keep the package updated without them
2026-06-02 07:05:01 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-02 07:05:05 +0000 <[exa]> (esp if there are volunteers to take over, wink wink)
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2026-06-02 08:46:38 +0000 <jaror> sm: the new tagline is a spinoff from this thread: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/emphasize-why-haskell-on-haskell-org-landing-page/12036?u=jaror
2026-06-02 08:46:50 +0000 <jaror> and then this infra issue: https://github.com/haskell-infra/www.haskell.org/pull/337
2026-06-02 08:47:30 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2026-06-02 09:07:35 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
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2026-06-02 09:11:33 +0000acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e5985649f68ddf4fc506.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2026-06-02 09:56:51 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3030:aef:5ba2:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen
2026-06-02 10:10:49 +0000picnoir(~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur) (Quit: WeeChat 4.9.0)
2026-06-02 10:19:38 +0000 <sm> 👍🏻
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2026-06-02 10:27:25 +0000picnoir(~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur) NinjaTrappeur
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2026-06-02 10:44:46 +0000haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) haritz
2026-06-02 10:51:29 +0000 <gentauro> sm: if you combine it with NixOS, the statement is actually true :)
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2026-06-02 11:05:15 +0000olivial(~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) benjaminl
2026-06-02 11:06:52 +0000 <sm> I think it's quite true even without nix (it's why I switched to haskell)
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2026-06-02 11:58:02 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-170-219.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) CiaoSen
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2026-06-02 12:47:45 +0000Alex_delenda_est(~al_test@178.34.160.200) (Quit: ;-)
2026-06-02 12:48:27 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.200) (Quit: ;-)
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2026-06-02 13:11:19 +0000tjbc(~tjbc@user/fliife) fliife
2026-06-02 13:21:23 +0000 <gentauro> sm: I mean, you can't even build for diff ghc versions without having to do shenanigans ;)
2026-06-02 13:21:50 +0000gentauro«Avoid success at all costs» SPJ ;)
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2026-06-02 13:24:38 +0000AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.160.200)
2026-06-02 13:27:44 +0000AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.200)
2026-06-02 13:31:23 +0000 <sm> I agree the picture is a bit mixed. But those issues can be managed, and your codebase itself can live and grow for a long time
2026-06-02 13:32:04 +0000 <sm> more so than most languages
2026-06-02 13:33:07 +0000 <yin> i have bad feelings about this marketing wave around haskell
2026-06-02 13:34:48 +0000bedbedbde(~bedbedbde@user/bedbedbde) bedbedbde
2026-06-02 13:35:58 +0000 <yin> i hope that i'm wrong
2026-06-02 13:36:11 +0000 <jaror> what marketing wave?
2026-06-02 13:36:45 +0000Alex_delenda_est(~al_test@178.34.160.200)
2026-06-02 13:37:42 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-02 13:38:11 +0000 <gentauro> the marketing is that if Haskell doesn't "do something", with the wave of AI-slop, instead of all Haskell devs could be in a Boeing 747, it might be all Haskell devs can be in a mini-bus ;) (not to sound the alarm but …)
2026-06-02 13:38:33 +0000 <yin> i've been feeling a revival of the general effort to bring more people into Haskell lately, but maybe i'm wrong?
2026-06-02 13:40:10 +0000 <jaror> I haven't noticed that much of such an effort. The change to haskell.org was also already a year ago.
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2026-06-02 13:40:27 +0000 <sm> haskellers have always been wanting it to grow (in various directions), nothing new in that. The speed is not exactly breakneck
2026-06-02 13:41:24 +0000 <gentauro> sm: "some" have, others, as long as their academic papers 👍 then …
2026-06-02 13:47:32 +0000bedbedbde(~bedbedbde@user/bedbedbde) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-06-02 13:48:16 +0000 <tomsmeding> I spoke to a devops engineer earlier this year, and he hadn't even heard of the name Haskell!! How can that be!!1
2026-06-02 13:49:33 +0000 <yin> i'd love for Haskell to grow, but not in all directions
2026-06-02 13:49:53 +0000 <yin> i actually think a little pruning would be appropriate
2026-06-02 13:50:43 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@dynamic-046-114-170-219.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-06-02 13:52:17 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3030:aef:5ba2:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen
2026-06-02 13:54:54 +0000 <kuribas> tomsmeding: They also don't know what is hygienic macro expansion...
2026-06-02 13:55:18 +0000 <kuribas> It was solved 40 years ago.
2026-06-02 13:55:38 +0000 <tomsmeding> clearly they must be enlightened!
2026-06-02 13:55:58 +0000 <yin> are we dissing devops in general?
2026-06-02 13:56:50 +0000 <sm> this is #haskell, we don't dis anyone
2026-06-02 13:57:12 +0000 <sm> well, maybe ourselves sometimes
2026-06-02 13:59:16 +0000 <kuribas> yin: I am fine, as long as I don't have to deal with helmfiles myself...
2026-06-02 14:00:03 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-06-02 14:00:16 +0000 <yin> man i remember when i was first learning haskell and discovering this channel, there was a great log going around of an obvious troll trying to spam and cause chaos, which was promptly convinced, after a very short interaction with the amazing people here, to try haskell
2026-06-02 14:00:21 +0000 <kuribas> haskell is out of the hype phase.
2026-06-02 14:00:46 +0000gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) gehmehgeh
2026-06-02 14:01:42 +0000 <yin> here it is https://gist.github.com/quchen/5280339
2026-06-02 14:01:43 +0000 <kuribas> yin: I didn't parse that sentence... How was convinced to use haskell?
2026-06-02 14:02:23 +0000 <yin> kuribas: my english is not the best. read the link and you'll understand
2026-06-02 14:08:18 +0000Square3(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-06-02 14:15:19 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-02 14:17:15 +0000CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:3030:aef:5ba2:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-02 14:30:08 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2026-06-02 14:42:01 +0000kuribas(~user@2a02-1810-2825-6000-46b1-7c3d-a8cd-5cbd.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-06-02 15:13:03 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-02 15:21:06 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) spew
2026-06-02 15:22:29 +0000 <tomsmeding> classic!
2026-06-02 15:36:48 +0000 <gentauro> speaking of sentences. Working at a smaller IT place, we all devs ate lunch together. Then once (only happened that time) the HR person joined. First sentence she said, one of the devs replied: "Sorry, but I can't compile your sentence".
2026-06-02 15:36:55 +0000 <gentauro> she just stood up and left xD
2026-06-02 15:37:54 +0000gentaurono wonder business want to get rid of us (AI-n't that something) xD
2026-06-02 15:43:02 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2026-06-02 15:50:22 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 271 seconds)
2026-06-02 15:51:13 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
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2026-06-02 15:57:47 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-02 16:00:00 +0000lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2026-06-02 16:00:35 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Quit: zzz)
2026-06-02 16:01:54 +0000 <tomsmeding> funny, but also a little sad
2026-06-02 16:02:32 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) spew
2026-06-02 16:18:05 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-02 16:27:11 +0000 <gentauro> yeah. That's what happens when you hire really good people with zero social skills :-\
2026-06-02 16:38:03 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2026-06-02 16:44:10 +0000 <int-e> gentauro: I've heard about small talk, but I hate object-oriented programming languages.
2026-06-02 16:49:07 +0000 <tomsmeding> yin: btw your english there was perfectly fine, except a human is referred to with "who" instead of "which" (the troll turned out to be human, after all)
2026-06-02 16:54:22 +0000 <probie> Smalltalk is actually pretty great. I wouldn't personally recommend trying to build your next "big" system in it (or in any dynamically typed language), but it's pretty fun. If you're looking for a modern FOSS implementation, I recommend Pharo
2026-06-02 16:54:26 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
2026-06-02 16:58:12 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn
2026-06-02 16:59:41 +0000Beowulf(florian@sleipnir.bandrate.org) (Quit: = "")
2026-06-02 17:03:47 +0000Digitdigitteknohippie
2026-06-02 17:03:54 +0000digitteknohippieDigit
2026-06-02 17:05:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-06-02 17:07:28 +0000 <gentauro> int-e: xD
2026-06-02 17:08:52 +0000 <gentauro> probie: I was actually quite surprised when one of the greater Danish logistic companies told me they were using smalltalk in PROD (we are talking +2020 ish) :o
2026-06-02 17:09:15 +0000bggd_(~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:dfb:7180:26ed:4cfc)
2026-06-02 17:09:33 +0000Beowulf(florian@sleipnir.bandrate.org)
2026-06-02 17:15:44 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) misterfish
2026-06-02 17:17:25 +0000 <probie> gentauro: I don't think it's a terrible choice. Apart from the lack of library support and most implementations not playing too well with your favourite VCS (since with the exception of GNU smalltalk, smalltalks tend to be image based, not source based), I don't think it's any worse than picking Python or Ruby.
2026-06-02 17:17:53 +0000 <monochrom> int-e: But smalltalk had lambda before it was cool!
2026-06-02 17:20:18 +0000misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-06-02 17:21:28 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-06-02 17:22:04 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
2026-06-02 17:23:16 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) (Client Quit)
2026-06-02 17:23:16 +0000 <gentauro> probie: they only had 1 dev. And no replacement. For a big company that's a big no-no
2026-06-02 17:23:43 +0000 <int-e> monochrom: tbh it's more that every major implementation of Smalltalk appears to be its own VM with its own goofy windowing system and editor and you're supposed to work inside that.
2026-06-02 17:23:49 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
2026-06-02 17:24:12 +0000 <int-e> at which point I decided that I didn't want to try the language that badly
2026-06-02 17:25:55 +0000skum(~skum@user/skum) skum
2026-06-02 17:28:11 +0000 <probie> int-e: Unfortunately most of the smalltalk community seem to consider that to be one of the best features (GNU smalltalk didn't, but I'm pretty sure that's barely been touched in the past 10 years)
2026-06-02 17:30:39 +0000ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-06-02 17:32:06 +0000 <monochrom> I didn't try the language either. Just saw a few examples. I think representative examples because I was in a reading group reading a paper on code optimizations for smalltalk. But at once I recognized that it's the closest to the "objects messaging each other" narrative, plus it has lambda! I concluded that only it (or squeak) does justice to untyped OO.
2026-06-02 17:33:07 +0000 <monochrom> (And independently, I tried OCaml and concluded that only it does justice to typed OO, or generally static subtyping.)
2026-06-02 17:34:42 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-02 17:35:29 +0000 <monochrom> Over the years I noticed a high correlation between "this language is actually compositional" and "has lambda". :)
2026-06-02 17:35:48 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-06-02 17:36:15 +0000 <monochrom> and then think back "oh that's what Backus said" :)
2026-06-02 17:36:33 +0000m(~travltux@user/travltux) travltux
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2026-06-02 17:50:25 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-02 17:59:50 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-06-02 18:05:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-06-02 18:10:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-06-02 18:12:53 +0000ft(~ft@p4fc2aedc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2026-06-02 18:13:22 +0000 <yin> tomsmeding: thanks. wouldn't it be "whom" in extremely correct english?
2026-06-02 18:14:57 +0000confusedalex(~confuseda@user/confusedalex) confusedalex
2026-06-02 18:15:45 +0000 <yin> i guess not
2026-06-02 18:19:35 +0000confusedalex(~confuseda@user/confusedalex) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026-06-02 18:20:49 +0000 <monochrom> english sucks :)
2026-06-02 18:20:53 +0000 <tomsmeding> apparently?
2026-06-02 18:21:08 +0000 <raincomplex> i believe 'whom' is used when the pronoun is the object
2026-06-02 18:21:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-06-02 18:21:21 +0000 <raincomplex> an easy way to remember this is that he/him are used in the same places as who/whom
2026-06-02 18:21:29 +0000 <raincomplex> he->who, him->whom
2026-06-02 18:21:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> what I'm reading is that 'whom' was used ~100y ago for the object, yes
2026-06-02 18:22:02 +0000 <tomsmeding> but dative uses feel much more natural than accusative uses to me -- although my feeling here is very fraught as I'm not a native speaker
2026-06-02 18:22:10 +0000 <raincomplex> so like "who did this" versus "you gave it to whom?"
2026-06-02 18:22:24 +0000 <tomsmeding> (To whom did you give the book? vs Whom did you see?)
2026-06-02 18:23:17 +0000 <raincomplex> "you saw whom?" does sound pretty weird haha
2026-06-02 18:23:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> yes
2026-06-02 18:23:26 +0000 <raincomplex> "who did you see" is much more common
2026-06-02 18:23:37 +0000 <raincomplex> anyway
2026-06-02 18:23:42 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-06-02 18:23:47 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-06-02 18:23:59 +0000 <raincomplex> worse is better i guess? ;D
2026-06-02 18:26:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-06-02 18:26:23 +0000 <probie> Whatever native speakers do is preferable to an artificial standard
2026-06-02 18:26:52 +0000 <tomsmeding> wikipedia also rather clearly classifies the people prescribing 'whom' as, well, prescriptivists
2026-06-02 18:27:42 +0000 <probie> Outside of set phrases ("to whom it may concern"), it's on the way out.
2026-06-02 18:31:07 +0000emilym(~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym