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| 2024-11-14 13:37:49 +0100 | mari59415 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-11-14 13:36:10 +0100 | <hellwolf> | fwiw, @dminuoso, I had a small example here https://discourse.haskell.org/t/variable-arity-currying-helper/10659 that decorates "let foo' = curry' (MkFn foo)" but that assumes all arguments is "showable". to make it runTrace, you'd need to have a default instance for all types, and then overlapping instance for Show, Num, Functor, etc. |
| 2024-11-14 13:35:34 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:34:38 +0100 | <hellwolf> | exactly, mari59415, it is a problem most applicable to impure code. For pure code, you write properties (which means thinking a lot about what you are writing.) |
| 2024-11-14 13:33:53 +0100 | <hellwolf> | But I find the habit of spending more time in thinking then examining into what happened is a better use of time. Of course, on the contrary, Linus, notoriously, promoted the idea of printf debugging. So I guess the tool influence on how you do troubleshooting. |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:42 +0100 | <mari59415> | no mentions about pure code being amounts easier to test |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:36 +0100 | ChanServ | +v haskellbridge |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:36 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) hackager |
| 2024-11-14 13:32:28 +0100 | <lortabac> | I don't think we should see lack of observability as an intrinsic property of pure computations |
| 2024-11-14 13:31:51 +0100 | <lortabac> | "Pure code is often cumbersome to debug" *with GHC* |
| 2024-11-14 13:31:46 +0100 | haskellbridge | (~hackager@syn-024-093-192-219.res.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:48 +0100 | <hellwolf> | sorry, typed too slow. I meant to propose a hypothetical |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:32 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) misterfish |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:25 +0100 | <hellwolf> | that'd be my ideal way of trace into your pure fn in a principled way. I am entirely sure how feasible/difficult it could be; I did somethings that involve some aspects of such a thing. |
| 2024-11-14 13:28:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | What is `runTrace` supposed to be here? |
| 2024-11-14 13:27:19 +0100 | <hellwolf> | runTrace your_pure_fn your_trace_filters ...currying your_pure_fn_args... |
| 2024-11-14 13:26:39 +0100 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-11-14 13:26:03 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:25:23 +0100 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) arahael |
| 2024-11-14 13:24:25 +0100 | arahael_ | (~arahael@user/arahael) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-11-14 13:23:59 +0100 | mari59415 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:42 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Consider something like GHC, where large portions work in IO |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:21 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Pure code is often cumbersome to debug |
| 2024-11-14 13:22:02 +0100 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: Anyway, IO can still be a useful tool, especially if you want any kind of introspectability of whats going on (say logging or debugging) |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:32 +0100 | <dminuoso> | No, those examples I named are both wrong. Mmm. |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:26 +0100 | <dminuoso> | An internal compiler of ours. |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:14 +0100 | <hellwolf> | which code base? |
| 2024-11-14 13:20:06 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Ill have to dig through the commit history to find this one. |
| 2024-11-14 13:19:48 +0100 | <dminuoso> | Yeah I think it was something like `unsafePerformIO (traverse_ (\_ -> newIORef []) xs)` and GHC successfully floated that IORef out |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:46 +0100 | <dminuoso> | I mean actually there was a `traverse_` in there too. |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:15 +0100 | <dminuoso> | (In reality the code was far more sophisticated, so it was neither obvious how or why this happened) |
| 2024-11-14 13:18:14 +0100 | housemate | (~housemate@146.70.66.228) (Quit: "I saw it in a tiktok video and thought that it was the most smartest answer ever." ~ AnonOps Radio [some time some place] | I AM THE DERIVATIVE I AM GOING TANGENT TO THE CURVE!) |
| 2024-11-14 13:17:57 +0100 | <dminuoso> | It was a simple case of something like `replicate n (unsafePerformIO (newIORef []))`, which GHC happily refactored into `let x = unsafePerformIO (newIORef []) in replicate n x` |
| 2024-11-14 13:16:33 +0100 | hellwolf | like when label is truth for to itself. |
| 2024-11-14 13:13:49 +0100 | <dminuoso> | unsafePerformIO is indeed quite unsafe. :-) |
| 2024-11-14 13:09:23 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) mari-estel |
| 2024-11-14 13:09:11 +0100 | misterfish | (~misterfis@31-161-39-137.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:07:45 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7283f73687bc11ede7922f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 13:05:28 +0100 | <hellwolf> | like unsafePerformIO? |
| 2024-11-14 13:04:09 +0100 | <Rembane> | Some germs are quite good to not be in contact with IMO |
| 2024-11-14 13:04:00 +0100 | <Leary> | hellwolf: Welcome to the oasis of sanity. |
| 2024-11-14 13:03:23 +0100 | <hellwolf> | I hesitate to make a connetion with germophobia, since I personally am an opposite of a germophobia. |
| 2024-11-14 13:02:11 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2024-11-14 13:01:18 +0100 | <Rembane> | hellwolf: Nah, it's sound. Not having to deal with side effects makes code so much easier to write, read and test. |
| 2024-11-14 13:00:04 +0100 | caconym | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2024-11-14 12:58:54 +0100 | jero98772 | (~jero98772@190.158.28.32) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-11-14 12:57:24 +0100 | <hellwolf> | Is "IOPhobia" pathological case? After decades of programming, I find pure joy in writing main part of the code that deals with zero IO. And only Haskell can guarantee that, to the extent that I am questioning if I am sick. |
| 2024-11-14 12:52:05 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) siracusa |
| 2024-11-14 12:47:34 +0100 | mari29333 | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-11-14 12:46:03 +0100 | mari-estel | (~mari-este@user/mari-estel) (Client Quit) |