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2026-05-15 02:15:19 +0000 <monochrom> I'm devil's advocate and I say that one can always defunctionalize all of dynamic dispatch (table of function pointers), continuations (functions again), and effect systems (continuations again, and see the previous item) to just message passing.
2026-05-15 02:18:01 +0000 <monochrom> I have claimed isomorphisms between all of them, so "clearly" any one of them can be said to encompass the others. More clear is that none of them is more profound than the others, and furthermore the whole consideration is nothing profound either.
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2026-05-15 03:34:01 +0000 <jreicher> I'm not presupposing or claiming any kind of profundity here. I'm just playing with the ideas to see what I find. But TBH I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "messaging passing" in a pure functional context. Can you explain that, if the question makes sense?
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2026-05-15 04:27:24 +0000 <monochrom> Today people say "call method m() of object o". But that's not the original OO. Original OO said "send message m() to object o".
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2026-05-15 04:31:10 +0000 <monochrom> Meanwhile, FP people thought up taking CPS code, which requires a language that supports higher-order functions, and performing defunctionalization to convert continuations to data, therefore requiring only first-order functions. So now one doesn't pass around continuations, instead passes around data.
2026-05-15 04:31:29 +0000 <monochrom> And then you just have to accept message = data. Same difference.
2026-05-15 04:35:50 +0000 <monochrom> The data from defunctionalization are of an algebraic data type. The receiver does a case-of and reacts to different cases differently. That's just another way to say "dispatch".
2026-05-15 04:37:48 +0000 <monochrom> (unless you really insist that "dispatch" must involve function pointers, like average OO people do; then I can compromise with: case-of is defunctionalized dispatch.)
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2026-05-15 04:49:29 +0000 <monochrom> An example of this equivalence is the exception effect. It can be implemented by "3" ways: bi-contiuation passing, stack frames, the Either monad which is an algebraic data type. But then bi-continuation passing is just church encoding of the Either ADT. And pushing stack frames containing function pointers is just passing continuations.
2026-05-15 04:55:11 +0000 <monochrom> This holds for all algebraic effects. All of them could have been free monads implemented as algebraic data types. People use delimited continuations for speed only; it's just a code optimization. There is no mathematical difference apart from performance.
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2026-05-15 05:25:23 +0000 <jreicher> monochrom: So you're saying we can understand a continuation as a message, and the function that accepts it as an object?
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2026-05-15 05:37:55 +0000 <monochrom> Sure.
2026-05-15 05:40:55 +0000 <jreicher> Makes sense. Reminds of a talk (which I can dig up) where the presenter showed what it look like to do a particular kind of code with and without delimited continuations. It was absolutely possible without, but much easier for a human with.
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2026-05-15 09:50:43 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 09:57:20 +0000danza(~danza@user/danza) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-15 09:58:42 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
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2026-05-15 10:04:04 +0000Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@libera/contributor/wireguard.tunneler.raito-bezarius) Raito_Bezarius
2026-05-15 10:06:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 10:07:55 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2)
2026-05-15 10:09:46 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
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2026-05-15 10:12:06 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) (Client Quit)
2026-05-15 10:14:13 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
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2026-05-15 10:36:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 10:49:08 +0000dtman34(~dtman34@2601:447:d17d:eaf2:8123:c1ff:6dae:d26b) dtman34
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2026-05-15 11:21:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 11:25:23 +0000euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
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2026-05-15 11:37:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 11:41:59 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 11:42:45 +0000echoreply1(~echoreply@2001:19f0:9002:1f3b:5400:ff:fe6f:8b8d) echoreply
2026-05-15 11:46:43 +0000echoreply(~echoreply@45.32.163.16) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-05-15 11:47:31 +0000 <[exa]> if I have a `finally` clause somewhere in a thread and the main thread finishes (and thus the program finishes), does the `finally` handler get executed?
2026-05-15 11:47:52 +0000 <[exa]> (I suspect not so kinda seeking a direct confirmation thereof in docs)
2026-05-15 11:53:04 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 11:58:34 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-05-15 11:59:25 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-15 12:00:41 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte
2026-05-15 12:08:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 12:08:55 +0000 <srk> it does, threads are surely reaped with killThread / cancel (async), which calls throwTo .. killThread tid = throwTo tid ThreadKilled
2026-05-15 12:13:45 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-15 12:17:26 +0000 <srk> maybe..
2026-05-15 12:17:29 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
2026-05-15 12:18:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> doesn't look like it https://play.haskell.org/saved/U0bUqZUg
2026-05-15 12:18:25 +0000 <tomsmeding> if you explicitly `killThread` the thread, then the handler does run
2026-05-15 12:21:08 +0000infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-15 12:24:18 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
2026-05-15 12:24:49 +0000 <srk> yea did the same test, was wondering a bit if that's just stdout issue
2026-05-15 12:28:30 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2026-05-15 12:29:03 +0000 <srk> no, close is not called when testing using withFile
2026-05-15 12:30:15 +0000 <srk> oh -- Only annotate when setup or teardown of withFile' raised the exception
2026-05-15 12:31:55 +0000 <srk> not with bracket either. TIL!
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2026-05-15 12:38:21 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 13:20:48 +0000mtmn(~mtmn@user/mtmn) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026-05-15 13:23:33 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 13:28:14 +0000random-jellyfish(~random-je@user/random-jellyfish) random-jellyfish
2026-05-15 13:29:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-15 13:30:14 +0000fp1(~Thunderbi@130.233.70.60) fp
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2026-05-15 13:41:04 +0000itaipu(~itaipu@168.121.98.126) itaipu
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2026-05-15 13:50:27 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@94-21-138-77.pool.digikabel.hu)
2026-05-15 13:55:08 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 13:59:00 +0000terrorjack(~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:271:2d98::2) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2026-05-15 14:24:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 14:36:14 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2026-05-15 14:38:57 +0000califax(~califax@user/califx) califx
2026-05-15 14:42:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 14:42:35 +0000Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@libera/contributor/wireguard.tunneler.raito-bezarius) Raito_Bezarius
2026-05-15 14:51:47 +0000m_a_r_k(~m_a_r_k@archlinux/support/mark) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 14:51:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 14:52:39 +0000m_a_r_k(~m_a_r_k@archlinux/support/mark) m_a_r_k
2026-05-15 14:57:04 +0000karenw(~karenw@user/karenw) karenw
2026-05-15 14:57:14 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-15 14:57:14 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:7f8f:6e22:7902:ac82)
2026-05-15 14:57:36 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-05-15 14:58:43 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:7f8f:6e22:7902:ac82) (Client Quit)
2026-05-15 15:02:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 15:07:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:09:27 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:18:23 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 15:20:32 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:143c:dee0:d5f8:e73b) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-05-15 15:23:08 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:25:35 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 15:28:07 +0000notzmv(~umar@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:30:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:32:29 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:143c:dee0:d5f8:e73b)
2026-05-15 15:41:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 15:46:12 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-15 15:50:08 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:7f8f:6e22:7902:ac82)
2026-05-15 15:51:44 +0000 <geekosaur> if the main thread exits, the OS tears the whole program down and kills all threads with no chance to clean up
2026-05-15 15:57:20 +0000gues76196(~username@95.75.212.164)
2026-05-15 15:58:47 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-05-15 16:00:44 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: Kernel upgrade AGAIN? Jesus fucking Christ...)
2026-05-15 16:02:11 +0000Pozyomka(~pyon@user/pyon) pyon
2026-05-15 16:02:15 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:7f8f:6e22:7902:ac82) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 16:02:46 +0000srazkvt(~sarah@user/srazkvt) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2026-05-15 16:05:58 +0000Digitdigitteknohippie
2026-05-15 16:08:07 +0000newmind(~newmind@user/newmind) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 16:09:52 +0000newmind(~newmind@user/newmind) newmind
2026-05-15 16:12:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-15 16:26:19 +0000xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Quit: bye)
2026-05-15 16:26:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 16:26:59 +0000xal(~xal@mx1.xal.systems) xal
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2026-05-15 16:39:58 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) rekahsoft
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2026-05-15 16:44:04 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-15 16:45:40 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
2026-05-15 16:46:40 +0000Xe(~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in)
2026-05-15 16:47:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-05-15 16:49:11 +0000Xe(~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe
2026-05-15 16:58:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 17:01:42 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:143c:dee0:d5f8:e73b) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2026-05-15 17:02:30 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-15 17:07:50 +0000ftzm4(~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk)
2026-05-15 17:13:32 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 17:13:33 +0000ftzm4(~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-05-15 17:13:52 +0000ftzm4(~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk)
2026-05-15 17:18:14 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 17:19:30 +0000ftzm4(~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-05-15 17:22:25 +0000ftzm(~ftzm@085080245206.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm
2026-05-15 17:23:53 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) tzh
2026-05-15 17:24:32 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 17:24:57 +0000sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2026-05-15 17:28:24 +0000Xe(~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) (Quit: ZNC 1.10.2 - https://znc.in)
2026-05-15 17:29:18 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 17:29:31 +0000Xe(~Xe@perl/impostor/xe) Xe
2026-05-15 17:31:20 +0000szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2026-05-15 17:31:33 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:143c:dee0:d5f8:e73b)
2026-05-15 17:34:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 17:34:55 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 17:35:07 +0000tnt2(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2026-05-15 17:37:26 +0000tnt2tnt1
2026-05-15 17:43:43 +0000td_(~td@83.135.9.15) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-15 17:45:06 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 17:46:23 +0000euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
2026-05-15 17:49:01 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@94-21-138-77.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-05-15 17:49:18 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@94-21-138-77.pool.digikabel.hu)
2026-05-15 17:50:35 +0000td_(~td@2001:9e8:19f3:400:c9df:d9bc:d716:7cfb)
2026-05-15 17:51:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 17:55:45 +0000euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
2026-05-15 18:01:25 +0000paddymahoney(~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 18:02:09 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 18:06:55 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 18:15:04 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
2026-05-15 18:17:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 18:22:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 18:23:24 +0000paddymahoney(~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2026-05-15 18:25:24 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 18:26:13 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2026-05-15 18:33:03 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 18:34:33 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-05-15 18:37:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 18:38:29 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-15 18:43:13 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) rekahsoft
2026-05-15 18:44:56 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) spew
2026-05-15 18:47:00 +0000synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:2937:5bd3:2b69:3d9e) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-15 18:47:33 +0000gf31(~gf3@user/gf3) (Quit: bye bye bye)
2026-05-15 18:47:49 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 18:48:02 +0000gf31(~gf3@user/gf3) gf3
2026-05-15 18:48:13 +0000synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:2c10:b93b:fafa:d0aa) synchromesh
2026-05-15 18:49:12 +0000digitteknohippieDigit
2026-05-15 18:51:08 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~)
2026-05-15 18:55:25 +0000gf31(~gf3@user/gf3) (Quit: bye bye bye)
2026-05-15 18:56:07 +0000gf31(~gf3@user/gf3) gf3
2026-05-15 19:01:13 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 19:02:29 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 19:02:40 +0000paddymahoney(~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:06:52 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 19:11:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:14:43 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:22:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 19:22:40 +0000ricardomaps(~ricardoma@2804:14d:a040:81ea:f6c5:5c01:6207:4f63)
2026-05-15 19:27:51 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:32:26 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) spew
2026-05-15 19:35:06 +0000paddymahoney(~paddymaho@pool-99-250-10-137.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2026-05-15 19:36:36 +0000bggd(~bgg@user/bggd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-15 19:38:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 19:41:31 +0000marinelli(~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli)
2026-05-15 19:42:49 +0000hololeap(~quassel@user/hololeap) (Quit: Bye)
2026-05-15 19:43:37 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:51:19 +0000comonad(~comonad@pd9e07bc5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:54:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-15 19:55:32 +0000sus0322(zero@user/zeromomentum) (Quit: the lounge - https://webirc.envs.net)
2026-05-15 19:59:10 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-15 19:59:28 +0000sus03228(zero@user/zeromomentum) zeromomentum
2026-05-15 20:05:23 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2026-05-15 20:07:18 +0000bionade24(~quassel@server2.oscloud.info) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-05-15 20:07:53 +0000bionade24(~quassel@server2.oscloud.info) bionade24