IRCBrowse

2026/01/16

2026-01-16 00:00:48 +0100 <geekosaur> right, I was abbreviating "countably finite", thought that would be fairly obvious from the ongoing context
2026-01-16 00:00:53 +0100 <geekosaur> *infinite
2026-01-16 00:01:02 +0100 <geekosaur> damn, fingers ahead of brain again
2026-01-16 00:01:58 +0100 <monochrom> Me is even finger-disobeys-brain. (How else do you think I mistyped "you" for "mean"?! :) )
2026-01-16 00:02:17 +0100 <dolio> Presumably the prefix code is going to be set up so that there's a unique prefix for each binary expansion.
2026-01-16 00:02:27 +0100 <dolio> Hopefully each real number.
2026-01-16 00:03:12 +0100 <dolio> So even though the expansions are infinitely long, you only need to look at a finite portion.
2026-01-16 00:03:13 +0100 <EvanR> jreicher, classic article in the earth days of modern math, "does every real number have a decimal expansion"
2026-01-16 00:03:16 +0100 <EvanR> early*
2026-01-16 00:03:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-16 00:04:07 +0100 <EvanR> this was before classical math "won" and "asserted" "yes" xD
2026-01-16 00:04:27 +0100 <EvanR> no one will drive us out of the paradise cantor created for us
2026-01-16 00:04:34 +0100 <jreicher> EvanR: OK.... Not sure what the point is? (And FYI I don't think classical math has won, but that's a debate for another day/channel)
2026-01-16 00:04:51 +0100 <EvanR> around 1940s debate of this sort died out
2026-01-16 00:05:01 +0100 <EvanR> resurrected way later
2026-01-16 00:05:17 +0100 <EvanR> but hopefully now we can just state our systems and assumptions ahead of time and not debate vibes
2026-01-16 00:05:41 +0100 <EvanR> jreicher, the point of the paper? well that's in the paper, and relevant to the above story about chaitin's number
2026-01-16 00:05:41 +0100 <monochrom> Leibniz would have loved that.
2026-01-16 00:06:03 +0100 <jreicher> EvanR: no, not the point of the paper, the point you are wanting to make by providing the paper
2026-01-16 00:06:38 +0100 <EvanR> remarks about about the "construction" hinging on obtaining a digital expansion of any real number
2026-01-16 00:06:49 +0100 <TMA> mapping digit sequences of countably infinite lenght to real numbers is a classic way to show that {0,1}^* (or {0..9}^*) is not countable set
2026-01-16 00:07:22 +0100 <EvanR> we just did that
2026-01-16 00:07:24 +0100 <EvanR> xD
2026-01-16 00:07:32 +0100 <EvanR> except skipping the reals
2026-01-16 00:07:38 +0100 <jreicher> EvanR: you mean the construction of diagonalisation?
2026-01-16 00:07:42 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-29ac-fd48-b0ea-63d3-602a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-01-16 00:07:57 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-29ac-fd48-b0ea-63d3-602a.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2026-01-16 00:08:26 +0100AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@5.139.232.54) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 00:08:48 +0100AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@5.139.232.54)
2026-01-16 00:10:17 +0100 <jreicher> (Because you don't need every real number to have a decimal/binary expansion for that construction)
2026-01-16 00:11:48 +0100 <EvanR> you don't even need reals for that, since it's demonstrating uncountability of *something*, in this case just streams of bits
2026-01-16 00:12:08 +0100 <jreicher> Yes, which is why I wasn't entirely understanding why you provided that paper
2026-01-16 00:12:19 +0100 <EvanR> you brought up chaitin
2026-01-16 00:12:26 +0100 <EvanR> that was being discussed
2026-01-16 00:12:35 +0100 <EvanR> that's specifically about reals
2026-01-16 00:13:49 +0100 <EvanR> if you keep getting confused thinking stream of bits means "oh reals", and reals means "oh, just a binary expansion", then that equivocation is the point of this old paper
2026-01-16 00:14:20 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 00:14:22 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 00:14:36 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 00:14:38 +0100 <EvanR> if you didn't guess already the argument in the paper is answering "no" to its title... like betteridge's law
2026-01-16 00:15:08 +0100 <dolio> Yeah, like I said, there's a paper about a topos where the reals are countable. But the diagonal argument holds in every topos.
2026-01-16 00:15:12 +0100 <jreicher> I'm not confused about that. Every bitstream can be interpreted as a numeral corresponding to a number. But that says nothing about the converse, especially since nothing stops you from throwing in all kinds of exotic objects to the set you want to call "the reals"
2026-01-16 00:15:39 +0100Googulator69(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-29ac-fd48-b0ea-63d3-602a.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2026-01-16 00:15:43 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-29ac-fd48-b0ea-63d3-602a.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-01-16 00:15:43 +0100 <dolio> So you can't assume that real numbers are the same things as expansions.
2026-01-16 00:15:49 +0100 <jreicher> I never have
2026-01-16 00:17:34 +0100 <EvanR> I don't doubt you can throw exotic objects in
2026-01-16 00:17:49 +0100 <EvanR> but it would seem kind of odd that these objects don't "sit" somewhere on the real line xD
2026-01-16 00:18:11 +0100 <EvanR> at least approximately
2026-01-16 00:18:19 +0100 <jreicher> yes of course. :)
2026-01-16 00:19:04 +0100 <jreicher> I'm pretty sure non-standard analysis does this with asserting the existence of infinitisimals
2026-01-16 00:19:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-01-16 00:19:08 +0100 <EvanR> if were doing vibes, this kind of defeats the point of the real line, and the idea of quantity or ordering
2026-01-16 00:19:21 +0100 <EvanR> well you know where infinitesimals are
2026-01-16 00:19:26 +0100 <EvanR> at least approximately
2026-01-16 00:19:29 +0100 <jreicher> I'm really not doing vibes, so I don't know why you keep saying that
2026-01-16 00:19:40 +0100 <EvanR> I'm doing vibes there
2026-01-16 00:19:43 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: "real number" is a misnomer :P
2026-01-16 00:19:48 +0100 <EvanR> lol
2026-01-16 00:20:04 +0100 <jreicher> Fictionalists unite
2026-01-16 00:20:08 +0100 <monochrom> My beef is that "imaginary number" is a misnomer. But I digress.
2026-01-16 00:20:22 +0100 <EvanR> imaginary numbers are real and real numbers are fictional
2026-01-16 00:25:35 +0100 <jreicher> I still don't understand why anyone would say SillyType is countable but BitStream is uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:25:59 +0100 <jreicher> Surely they're either both countable, or both uncountable, depending on your "definitions"
2026-01-16 00:26:11 +0100 <monochrom> I can prove them, but if you're asking for intuition, I think I don't have any.
2026-01-16 00:26:25 +0100 <jreicher> No, prove away, please. I'd like to understand.
2026-01-16 00:26:51 +0100 <jreicher> Every proof I sketch out results in an inconsistency.
2026-01-16 00:27:29 +0100 <monochrom> I map 0 to the infinite stream z = I z, 1 to bottom, 2 to I bottom, 3 to I (I bottom), etc.
2026-01-16 00:28:51 +0100 <jreicher> And so SillyType is countable, yes?
2026-01-16 00:29:36 +0100 <monochrom> But intuitively I'm not surprised. Expressing natural numbers in unary requires n units of memory for n; "merely" switching to binary, that drops down to lg n.
2026-01-16 00:29:37 +0100 <int-e> Sure. It's morally finite ("morally" being the view where you don't have bottoms)
2026-01-16 00:29:43 +0100k0zy(~user@75-164-179-179.ptld.qwest.net)
2026-01-16 00:29:51 +0100k0zy(~user@75-164-179-179.ptld.qwest.net) (Changing host)
2026-01-16 00:29:51 +0100k0zy(~user@user/k0zy) k0zy
2026-01-16 00:29:56 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2026-01-16 00:30:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 00:30:22 +0100 <monochrom> Generally there are multiple instance when switching from 1 to 2, or 2 to 3, or 3 to 4 makes breaking changes.
2026-01-16 00:30:35 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: hang on, are you now saying bitstream is countable? I was hoping that, having proved SillyType is countable, you'd now prove bitstream is uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:30:51 +0100 <int-e> jreicher: NO!
2026-01-16 00:30:54 +0100 <monochrom> SillyType is countable, BitStream is uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:31:10 +0100 <int-e> bitstream adds additional observations for each natural number.
2026-01-16 00:31:21 +0100 <monochrom> 2-colourability is polynomial-time, 3-colourability is NP-complete.
2026-01-16 00:31:29 +0100 <int-e> 1^N has cardinality 1; 2^N or 3^N is uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:31:40 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: what's your preferred proof that bitstream is uncountable? I'm looking for what it uses that SillyType isn't entitled to
2026-01-16 00:32:08 +0100 <monochrom> BitStream has more than infinite bit strings.
2026-01-16 00:32:25 +0100 <monochrom> (so use Cantor diagonlization again)
2026-01-16 00:32:49 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: am I allowed to say SillyType has more the infinite unary strings?
2026-01-16 00:32:53 +0100 <monochrom> (You can also attempt diagonalization on SillyType and get stuck.)
2026-01-16 00:33:13 +0100 <monochrom> Sure. That's doesn't get you anywhere per se.
2026-01-16 00:33:41 +0100 <monochrom> For BitStream I'm using: if a subset is uncountable, then a superset is also uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:33:55 +0100 <monochrom> so "more than" is helpful for me.
2026-01-16 00:34:23 +0100 <EvanR> there's other fun stuff like subcountable
2026-01-16 00:35:03 +0100 <EvanR> and subfinite
2026-01-16 00:35:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-16 00:35:31 +0100 <int-e> jreicher: Anyway, at an intuitive level, SillyType has no bits that you could flip to make Cantor's diagonal argument work.
2026-01-16 00:35:52 +0100 <int-e> So it's nothing like a bit stream.
2026-01-16 00:36:27 +0100 <jreicher> OK, but depending on what we allow for BitStream, can't I be allowed to construct all the aleph numbers from SillyType? That would make it uncountable i think
2026-01-16 00:37:03 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 00:37:17 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 00:37:24 +0100 <int-e> you're also stepping beyond what's useful for modelling program semantics
2026-01-16 00:37:25 +0100 <EvanR> there's like 1 possible value of SillyType
2026-01-16 00:37:38 +0100 <EvanR> if this is uncountable then, I'll eat my hat
2026-01-16 00:37:54 +0100 <jreicher> int-e: which is why I queried the use of an "infinitely running program" to begin with. It's an interesting dividing line.
2026-01-16 00:38:07 +0100 <EvanR> you're not asking about the number of 1s in the stream
2026-01-16 00:38:12 +0100 <EvanR> it's about the number of possible streams
2026-01-16 00:38:22 +0100 <EvanR> (like 1)
2026-01-16 00:38:43 +0100 <int-e> like, sure, you can pretend that there is an element of SillyType for every ordinal number. Or that there's some other unobservable feature that makes the values more plentiful. There's no purpose to it though, since none of this will be observable.
2026-01-16 00:39:02 +0100 <jreicher> ...just like infinitely running programs are not observable
2026-01-16 00:39:08 +0100 <EvanR> are you sure?
2026-01-16 00:39:12 +0100 <jreicher> (I'm just arguing devil's advocate now)
2026-01-16 00:39:17 +0100 <int-e> No it's not the same.
2026-01-16 00:39:34 +0100 <Leary> jreicher: SillyType caps out at omega since you can only "add 1" on the left to get 1 + omega = omega; there's no omega + 1.
2026-01-16 00:39:57 +0100 <jreicher> I know. That's kind of what I mean by "fine line". We seem to be saying we've got "observable", "unobservable", and then something like "observable in principle" (conceivable?)
2026-01-16 00:40:09 +0100 <int-e> omega arises naturally as the least upper bound of all natural numbers, corresponding to having computations of arbitrary length
2026-01-16 00:40:20 +0100 <int-e> nothing beyond omega arises in this fashion
2026-01-16 00:40:24 +0100 <EvanR> that's the point of semantics to define what the values (what the programs mean)
2026-01-16 00:40:40 +0100 <EvanR> if you're counting values, you're not counting programs, unless that's the semantics you're using
2026-01-16 00:40:45 +0100 <EvanR> or counting runtime behaviors
2026-01-16 00:40:52 +0100 <jreicher> Leary: but then why wouldn't we say BitStream caps out at computable streams? (I know it's not the same)
2026-01-16 00:41:17 +0100 <EvanR> I missed how we're distinguishing any values of SillyType beyond the obvious 1
2026-01-16 00:42:46 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: "we" apparently allow bottoms
2026-01-16 00:43:44 +0100 <TMA> ackshually, if we take SillyType as constructed then there is one value in it. if we take the definition as an axiom in a theory, there might exists a nonstandard model, in which there are more members of the SillyType
2026-01-16 00:44:29 +0100 <EvanR> so like, bottom, 1 bottom, 1 (1 bottom) etc are all consistent
2026-01-16 00:44:37 +0100 <EvanR> so maybe they all count as 1
2026-01-16 00:44:53 +0100 <jreicher> Would you prefer data SillyType = I | I SillyType?
2026-01-16 00:45:06 +0100 <EvanR> that would allow finite strings
2026-01-16 00:45:11 +0100 <int-e> TMA: You're disallowing bottoms so what you said is not true since we can show coinductively that for all a, b in SillyType, a = b.
2026-01-16 00:45:28 +0100 <int-e> IOW, there can't be any distinct non-standard element of that type.
2026-01-16 00:45:51 +0100 <EvanR> now you have many distinguishable SillyType strings
2026-01-16 00:45:52 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 00:46:04 +0100 <jreicher> But still countable?
2026-01-16 00:46:11 +0100 <EvanR> looks like yes
2026-01-16 00:46:30 +0100 <int-e> Yes, that's still countable.
2026-01-16 00:46:34 +0100 <EvanR> exercise write the function from Nat to SillyType which witnesses it
2026-01-16 00:46:40 +0100Inline(~User@2001-4dd6-dd24-0-f7db-3cda-3b52-1dd2.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de) Inline
2026-01-16 00:46:51 +0100 <TMA> so the sequence of ω⁺Is could also be in SillyType
2026-01-16 00:46:51 +0100 <int-e> (It's an infinite type though so adding non-standard elements will generally work.)
2026-01-16 00:46:56 +0100 <jreicher> OK. So I'm still curious why we think it's OK to throw in bitstreams that can't be computed, but we can't throw in sillytype strings that can't be computed
2026-01-16 00:47:00 +0100 <jreicher> TMA: exactly
2026-01-16 00:47:15 +0100 <EvanR> nobody threw in bitstreams that can't be computed that was iterated like 3 times
2026-01-16 00:47:28 +0100 <EvanR> (though I tried to once but everyone ignored me)
2026-01-16 00:47:30 +0100int-eloves moving goalposts btw. Not.
2026-01-16 00:48:16 +0100 <Leary> jreicher: You can say that if you want to, but as has already been pointed out, you're "crossing the streams" of two settings. You can model BitStream in either a constructive or a classical setting, but it's uncountable in both /because the notion of countability also depends on the setting/.
2026-01-16 00:48:36 +0100 <jreicher> EvanR: sorry, I must be missing something fundamental. I thought bitstream can't be (classically) uncountable without including non-computable streams
2026-01-16 00:48:51 +0100 <TMA> but the smallest model contains just one infinite sequence of Is
2026-01-16 00:48:53 +0100 <EvanR> well I never brought up classical uncountability
2026-01-16 00:49:02 +0100 <EvanR> you're beyond me now
2026-01-16 00:50:07 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-01-16 00:50:08 +0100 <EvanR> you can map (ok... lazy?) Nat to any SillyType = End | I SillyType
2026-01-16 00:50:20 +0100 <EvanR> I mean, all
2026-01-16 00:50:44 +0100 <TMA> jreicher: BitStream is uncountable.
2026-01-16 00:50:45 +0100 <EvanR> seems countable
2026-01-16 00:51:27 +0100 <EvanR> specifically, f Z = End; f (S n) = I (f n)
2026-01-16 00:52:05 +0100 <int-e> (that's borderline stupid; SillyType is obviously isomorphic to Nat)
2026-01-16 00:52:12 +0100 <EvanR> if you try that on Bitstream, then somebody can come along and get a counterexample stream
2026-01-16 00:52:18 +0100 <EvanR> int-e, looooool
2026-01-16 00:52:23 +0100 <int-e> (data Nat = Z | S N)
2026-01-16 00:52:33 +0100 <EvanR> it's borderline Silly
2026-01-16 00:52:37 +0100 <int-e> (data SillyType = End | I SillyType)
2026-01-16 00:52:47 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: No, we've crossed that line long ago.
2026-01-16 00:53:10 +0100 <jreicher> If we disallow infinite bitstreams, bitstream becomes countable. If we allow infinite bitstreams, why can't we allow transfinite silly strings?
2026-01-16 00:53:32 +0100 <EvanR> why didn't cantor think of disallowing infinite streams
2026-01-16 00:53:38 +0100 <EvanR> would have saved us a lot of trouble
2026-01-16 00:53:42 +0100 <int-e> . o O ( if you disallow inifinte bitstreams, bitstream becomes empty )
2026-01-16 00:53:47 +0100 <jreicher> I'm not suggesting we do that. I'm just trying to understand the double standard.
2026-01-16 00:53:58 +0100EvanRboggles
2026-01-16 00:54:54 +0100 <TMA> jreicher: there is transfinite silly string... it goes: I I I I I I I I I ...
2026-01-16 00:55:24 +0100 <Inline> aye aye aye eye eye aye.......
2026-01-16 00:55:29 +0100 <int-e> jreicher: You're insisting that two things are analogous despite strong evidence to the contrary, all of which has been laid out in front of you above.
2026-01-16 00:55:38 +0100 <Inline> the egotist set
2026-01-16 00:55:43 +0100 <Inline> lol
2026-01-16 00:55:43 +0100 <EvanR> jreicher, the original definition of Bitstream and SillyType both have nothing but infinite streams. Not really a double standard
2026-01-16 00:55:51 +0100 <jreicher> I'm not insisting anything of the sort. I also don't think they're analogous. I'm just trying to understand why.
2026-01-16 00:55:58 +0100 <TMA> jreicher: BUT there is just a single such string in the smallest model of the data SillyType = I SillyType theory
2026-01-16 00:56:09 +0100 <int-e> Also has it really been 2 hours of this...
2026-01-16 00:56:12 +0100 <EvanR> this is haskell an we have infinite lists
2026-01-16 00:56:16 +0100ttybitnik(~ttybitnik@user/wolper) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-01-16 00:56:17 +0100 <EvanR> turns out
2026-01-16 00:56:41 +0100 <jreicher> But not transfinite lists
2026-01-16 00:56:59 +0100 <EvanR> they're not needed to make the original point, just as in cantor
2026-01-16 00:57:21 +0100 <jreicher> No, I know. I'm just picking out where the line is.
2026-01-16 00:57:24 +0100 <EvanR> though if you want to get into that there's more exotic constructions
2026-01-16 00:58:57 +0100trickard_trickard
2026-01-16 01:05:34 +0100trickard(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 01:05:48 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-84-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 01:08:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 01:10:48 +0100 <jreicher> Now you've got me wondering if it's possible to define a type that will allow construction of all the limit ordinals using infinite lists.
2026-01-16 01:11:37 +0100 <EvanR> all the ordinals is ... problematic but you can have a lot of them
2026-01-16 01:12:16 +0100 <jreicher> Yeah it seems to me the "first few" would be straightforward
2026-01-16 01:14:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-01-16 01:18:01 +0100k0zy(~user@user/k0zy) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-16 01:19:09 +0100 <EvanR> I think agda makes this nicer by letting you define ordinals indexed by universe, then "useful programs using ordinals" (??) can then be universe polymorphic
2026-01-16 01:19:50 +0100 <monochrom> EvanR: I would be the one that threw in uncomputable bit streams. But I am not being inconsistent; if possible I would threw in uncomputable unary streams too, except that it is impossible, no such thing exists.
2026-01-16 01:20:27 +0100 <monochrom> which is again just the counterintuitive "change '1' to '2' suddenly everything is different".
2026-01-16 01:21:11 +0100 <jreicher> I certainly think it's interesting. It just doesn't seem to be something that should happen, but it does.
2026-01-16 01:21:16 +0100 <monochrom> I mean, if a theorem is counterintuitive, then question the intuition not the theorem.
2026-01-16 01:21:22 +0100 <jreicher> Yes
2026-01-16 01:21:44 +0100 <EvanR> intuition can be adjusted to fit the facts :tm:
2026-01-16 01:21:51 +0100 <jreicher> or question the definitions/axioms that result in the theorem.
2026-01-16 01:22:26 +0100 <EvanR> that's like questioning the game of chess itself if you lose
2026-01-16 01:22:39 +0100 <EvanR> better to play / define another game
2026-01-16 01:22:42 +0100 <int-e> "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." -- John von Neumann
2026-01-16 01:22:47 +0100 <jreicher> More like questioning it if it's too easy or too hard to play. Or not fun. Something like that.
2026-01-16 01:23:01 +0100 <jreicher> Then it arguably doesn't satisfy its goal
2026-01-16 01:23:11 +0100DetourNe-(~DetourNet@user/DetourNetworkUK) DetourNetworkUK
2026-01-16 01:23:12 +0100 <monochrom> Shannon's definition of "information" implies that {0} has 0 bits of information, {0,1} has 1 bit of information. That is already a kind of "everything is different" if you look at the ratio: from 0 to 1 is an infinite percent increase. To a large extent the whole conversation above follows.
2026-01-16 01:23:14 +0100 <EvanR> the game in which you lost nonetheless exists
2026-01-16 01:23:16 +0100 <EvanR> and is valid
2026-01-16 01:23:31 +0100DetourNetworkUK(DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 01:23:40 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: Now that's different. Clearly chess was designed to make me lose!
2026-01-16 01:23:51 +0100 <jreicher> Umm, that's philosophical turf on which I'm very comfortable arguing, but that would be even more off-topic than we already have been. Can still go there if you want.
2026-01-16 01:23:59 +0100 <EvanR> I'm good
2026-01-16 01:24:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 01:24:43 +0100 <EvanR> monochrom, the zero, infinity, ... rule
2026-01-16 01:25:28 +0100DetourNe-DetourNetworkUK
2026-01-16 01:26:43 +0100 <TMA> monochrom: you can still have uncomputable subsets of unary strings though
2026-01-16 01:26:53 +0100 <monochrom> "my car can do 0 to infinity in 60 seconds" >:)
2026-01-16 01:27:25 +0100 <monochrom> TMA: Please don't go there :( >:)
2026-01-16 01:29:18 +0100 <TMA> monochrom: good idea, I'll go to bed instead
2026-01-16 01:29:26 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2026-01-16 01:30:01 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-16 01:32:56 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@88-114-88-95.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2026-01-16 01:40:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 01:45:23 +0100newmind(~newmind@91-133-90-252.dyn.cablelink.at)
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2026-01-16 01:46:07 +0100 <geekosaur> I really should start kicking those things into #haskell-in-depth
2026-01-16 01:46:41 +0100 <monochrom> But I think we're done. :)
2026-01-16 01:47:04 +0100 <monochrom> But OK! Kicking people into the deep end feels good haha.
2026-01-16 01:48:19 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:5f60:7a2f:94c6:623e) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-01-16 01:48:33 +0100 <geekosaur> yeh, I've only been peeking in occasionally since I'm busy this afternoon/evening
2026-01-16 01:53:28 +0100 <jreicher> I didn't even know about that channel
2026-01-16 01:54:29 +0100 <dolio> Oh, maybe I should mention. You can set things up differently so that there are are uncomputable bit strings to talk about. And you can identify the computable bit strings as a subset, but is still uncountable.
2026-01-16 01:54:52 +0100 <dolio> That can be a useful perspective.
2026-01-16 01:56:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 01:57:28 +0100 <dolio> Not because there are 'really' uncomputable bit streams, but because a stream being uncomputable and you not knowing exactly how to compute it (because it doesn't come from some particular definition) act in sort of the same way.
2026-01-16 01:58:41 +0100 <dolio> Like, you can model the bits coming in from your ethernet cable as an 'uncomputable' bit stream, because it is an external entity not subject to your computational model. But you can computably act on the stream.
2026-01-16 02:01:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-01-16 02:01:55 +0100 <dolio> It can even be useful within a computing system.
2026-01-16 02:02:51 +0100 <dolio> Like, `unsafeInterleaveIO` lets you access a bit stream that has no corresponding Haskell term.
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2026-01-16 06:01:22 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2026-01-16 06:01:56 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: do you also have lecture notes that deal with countability? (I don't want to restart the topic here; asking only this question)
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2026-01-16 12:47:56 +0100 <gentauro> build elm-compiler 0.19.1 (7 years last commit) with stack, just works as a charm. Trying to build "something" with cabal + flakes … "yeah, let me build that ghc 8.10.7 which isn't really needed for scratch. See you in several hours" :|
2026-01-16 12:48:01 +0100 <gentauro> haha
2026-01-16 12:48:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 12:48:24 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
2026-01-16 12:48:27 +0100 <gentauro> «avoid success at all costs» (Y)
2026-01-16 12:51:27 +0100dyniec(~dyniec@dybiec.info) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-01-16 12:52:05 +0100dyniec(~dyniec@dybiec.info) dyniec
2026-01-16 12:52:30 +0100 <danza> it's not that bad
2026-01-16 12:52:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-01-16 12:54:16 +0100 <gentauro> I guess it has to do with Snoyman transitioning to Rust :'(
2026-01-16 12:57:05 +0100Enrico63(~Enrico63@2001:b07:646b:5fed:9efc:e8ff:fe24:3213) (Quit: Client closed)
2026-01-16 13:01:34 +0100 <danza> cabal has improved quite a lot
2026-01-16 13:01:39 +0100chewybread(~chewybrea@240b:10:9502:4100:8c87:65e5:9de1:f975)
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2026-01-16 13:11:42 +0100 <gentauro> danza: it might just be me who don't seem to grasp how `flakes` work. If I do `nix shell --extra-experimental-features flakes --extra-experimental-features nix-command github:NixOS/nixpkgs?ref=nixos-25.05#haskell.compiler.ghc8107` it seems to actually get the `ghc` from NixOS cache
2026-01-16 13:12:05 +0100 <danza> you are conflating nix with cabal. Also, there is #nixos
2026-01-16 13:12:21 +0100 <gentauro> but, when I use `nix build …` it just decides to build `ghc8107` from scratch
2026-01-16 13:12:26 +0100 <gentauro> danza: most likely
2026-01-16 13:12:47 +0100 <gentauro> I'm not use to neither of them. I have kept myself to `stack` which seems to be the "thing that JUST worked"
2026-01-16 13:12:50 +0100 <gentauro> :-\
2026-01-16 13:13:14 +0100 <danza> well try to add nix to stack XD
2026-01-16 13:13:23 +0100 <gentauro> xD
2026-01-16 13:13:45 +0100danza(~danza@user/danza) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-01-16 13:14:21 +0100 <gentauro> nah, I usually just tend to drop whatever I'm doing and move on to "greener fields". Used ot be a "gentoo user". I can't make myself to go back to that
2026-01-16 13:14:42 +0100 <Vq> You could do it the old fashioned way without flakes
2026-01-16 13:15:37 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: any exp with flakes? I kind of "not sure" it's the way cos I had to add `--extra-experimental-features` …
2026-01-16 13:15:40 +0100Googulator13(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2026-01-16 13:15:49 +0100 <gentauro> (invest time to learn that, if, it's not gonna be a thing)
2026-01-16 13:17:10 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: I have experience with flakes, but I haven't used 'nix shell'.
2026-01-16 13:19:41 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-01-16 13:19:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 13:21:08 +0100 <Lycurgus> >:
2026-01-16 13:21:31 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: I'm looking for the `flakes` replacement to `nix-shell`. I though it would be as simple as `nix shell` :)
2026-01-16 13:21:34 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:c589:6b53:dd18:5a14)
2026-01-16 13:21:50 +0100 <gentauro> (sometimes you "just" want to try someting out in a sandbox, before installing it)
2026-01-16 13:21:51 +0100 <Lycurgus> devenv?
2026-01-16 13:22:33 +0100 <Lycurgus> also lemme say ftr, claude can strip nix outta ihp
2026-01-16 13:22:46 +0100 <gentauro> `ihp`?
2026-01-16 13:23:15 +0100 <Lycurgus> a pkg
2026-01-16 13:24:11 +0100ttybitnik(~ttybitnik@user/wolper) ttybitnik
2026-01-16 13:24:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-01-16 13:24:34 +0100 <gentauro> I seem to be stucked in "old-school" NixOS xD
2026-01-16 13:25:36 +0100 <Lycurgus> https://eg.meansofproduction.biz/eg/index.php/NixOS
2026-01-16 13:26:33 +0100 <Lycurgus> those were the lean years in comparison to now
2026-01-16 13:27:50 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: Put this in a file with a name like ghc810_shell.nix: with import (builtins.fetchTarball { name = "nixos-25.05-2026-01-16"; url = "https://github.com/nixos/nixpkgs/archive/ac62194c3917d5f474c1a844b6fd6da2db95077d.tar.gz"; sha256 = "sha256:0v6bd1xk8a2aal83karlvc853x44dg1n4nk08jg3dajqyy0s98np"; }) {}; mkShell { buildInputs = [ haskell.compiler.ghc810 ]; }
2026-01-16 13:28:06 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: And then invoke it with: nix-shell ghc810_shell.nix
2026-01-16 13:28:26 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: That's the old fashioned way to do version pinning.
2026-01-16 13:28:58 +0100trickard(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 13:29:14 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
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2026-01-16 13:33:15 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: alsoknownas.renjuan.org ( juan@acm.org ))
2026-01-16 13:33:25 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: Oh, I knew that. That's how I have been doing it up til now. However, projects seem to have moved on to `flakes`. So I'm trying to "learn" how to do stuff like that, but in flakes.
2026-01-16 13:33:44 +0100 <gentauro> the `nix shell --exp … flakes` and the GHC compiler actually works
2026-01-16 13:34:18 +0100 <gentauro> while I'n in `nix shell` with the GHC, I try to do the `nix build …` and point to the flakes.nix and … yeah, it decides to build the ghc8107 anyway
2026-01-16 13:34:33 +0100 <gentauro> I'm guessing it's just me who don't know how to "flakes"
2026-01-16 13:34:35 +0100 <gentauro> :)
2026-01-16 13:35:30 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 13:37:00 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: If you write your own flake you can define what the default package, shell and dev-shell is. Now I guess you're relying on what happens to be in nixpkgs.
2026-01-16 13:39:33 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 13:39:44 +0100danza(~danza@user/danza) danza
2026-01-16 13:39:59 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: I can actually build the `flake.nix` package. That said, I would like to be able to tell the `nix build` «Hey, here is ghc8107 cached, please use that instead of building it from scratch". I will keep investigating and probably become wiser
2026-01-16 13:42:19 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2026-01-16 13:43:34 +0100attlin(~user@user/attlin) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-01-16 13:45:55 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: Maybe you're getting the environment for building ghc itself? If you define your own mkShell (in a flake) and put ghc810 in its buildInputs it ought to use the same cached version.
2026-01-16 13:45:55 +0100Googulator1(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2026-01-16 13:46:29 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: can I make a `flake.nix` and wrap their `flake.nix`? Like inception?
2026-01-16 13:48:41 +0100 <Vq> gentauro: "their" is nixpkgs, no? That one is normal to refer to as an input in your flake.
2026-01-16 13:48:50 +0100pipsquak-bird(~g@c-71-235-170-34.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-01-16 13:49:10 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 13:49:27 +0100Googulator13(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-01-16 13:49:42 +0100 <gentauro> Vq: I have cloned a git repo and the `flakes.nix` is in the root of the project. When I state "theirs", I mean "flakes.nix in root of git repo" :)
2026-01-16 13:51:48 +0100 <gentauro> anyway, I will read a bit more of -> https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.18/command-ref/new-cli/nix
2026-01-16 13:53:31 +0100 <gentauro> I'm guessing the `build` options https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.18/command-ref/new-cli/nix3-build#options it seems possible to provide `--include`
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2026-01-16 13:57:24 +0100danz91856(~danza@user/danza) danza
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2026-01-16 14:13:40 +0100fp(~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::10c5) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:17:22 +0100driib3180(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) driib
2026-01-16 14:19:58 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:20:01 +0100caubert(~caubert@user/caubert) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:20:13 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 14:20:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 14:25:15 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:26:23 +0100caubert(~caubert@user/caubert) caubert
2026-01-16 14:28:29 +0100driib3180(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-01-16 14:29:23 +0100driib3180(~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) driib
2026-01-16 14:31:23 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2026-01-16 14:31:48 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 14:32:01 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-82-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2026-01-16 14:36:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 14:38:00 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2026-01-16 14:41:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:42:23 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:43:07 +0100attlin(~user@user/attlin) attlin
2026-01-16 14:43:58 +0100Zemy(~Zemy@2600:100c:b0ab:2acb:40bf:cff:feb9:a01)
2026-01-16 14:46:31 +0100Zemy_(~Zemy@72.178.108.235) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:50:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-01-16 14:52:21 +0100rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.245) rekahsoft
2026-01-16 14:55:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-16 14:57:07 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) ystael
2026-01-16 14:57:09 +0100Zemy_(~Zemy@syn-192-154-181-091.biz.spectrum.com)
2026-01-16 14:59:42 +0100Core7109(~Zemy@2600:100c:b0ab:2acb:80ef:aff:fee5:c080)
2026-01-16 14:59:44 +0100Zemy_(~Zemy@syn-192-154-181-091.biz.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-01-16 14:59:54 +0100Zemy(~Zemy@2600:100c:b0ab:2acb:40bf:cff:feb9:a01) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2026-01-16 15:00:33 +0100newmind(~newmind@91-133-90-252.dyn.cablelink.at)
2026-01-16 15:00:57 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2026-01-16 15:01:48 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) Lycurgus
2026-01-16 15:04:09 +0100trickard_trickard