2025/11/18

2025-11-18 00:08:07 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2025-11-18 00:34:52 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: alsoknownas.renjuan.org ( juan@acm.org ))
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2025-11-18 00:42:29 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2025-11-18 00:43:06 +0100Zemy_(~Zemy@72.178.108.235)
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2025-11-18 00:55:06 +0100Zemy(~Zemy@2600:100c:b049:cf82:fcfb:56ff:fea6:3ac1) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2025-11-18 00:58:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-11-18 01:12:53 +0100mange(~mange@user/mange) mange
2025-11-18 01:13:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 01:15:04 +0100trickard_trickard
2025-11-18 01:17:05 +0100jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
2025-11-18 01:18:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:23:03 +0100jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:23:41 +0100 <yin> I'm trying to understant FRP in haskell and the hypothetical Monad instance for Signals. My mind immediately went to call/cc from Scheme. Am I way off base?
2025-11-18 01:25:35 +0100 <EvanR> Signal doesn't sound like the original formulation of FRP. Which library is this from
2025-11-18 01:27:20 +0100 <EvanR> in conal's old blog, he mentioned maybe something about a monad instance for Events then later abandoned it
2025-11-18 01:28:44 +0100 <yin> EvanR: Signal would be Behaviour from Conal's. (>>=) :: Signal a -> (a -> Signal b) -> Signal b
2025-11-18 01:28:58 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) peterbecich
2025-11-18 01:29:16 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 01:30:25 +0100 <EvanR> oh
2025-11-18 01:30:44 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-18 01:30:47 +0100 <EvanR> then monad can make sense in the same sense as the monad instance for Stream of Stream of a
2025-11-18 01:30:55 +0100 <EvanR> er, stream
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2025-11-18 01:31:02 +0100 <EvanR> join :: Stream (Stream a) -> Stream a
2025-11-18 01:31:21 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) chiselfuse
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2025-11-18 01:32:55 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-50-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-18 01:33:44 +0100 <EvanR> join :: Signal (Signal a) -> Signal a, assuming Signal = Behavior
2025-11-18 01:34:02 +0100 <EvanR> how useful that is I don't know
2025-11-18 01:34:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:35:36 +0100petrichor(~jez@user/petrichor) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:37:49 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) turlando
2025-11-18 01:42:30 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:43:44 +0100 <yin> my intuition is that bind would offer a way to dynamically change the control flow or dependency graph
2025-11-18 01:43:46 +0100 <yin> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1763426541194
2025-11-18 01:44:00 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) turlando
2025-11-18 01:44:40 +0100infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:45:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 01:45:09 +0100 <EvanR> Signal f <*> Signal x
2025-11-18 01:45:15 +0100 <EvanR> to make it more clear what's going on
2025-11-18 01:45:15 +0100synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:71c7:e357:fc79:c8b6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-18 01:45:37 +0100 <EvanR> would give you, basically (not actual syntax), Signal (f x)
2025-11-18 01:45:41 +0100synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:6993:feea:8b51:a565) synchromesh
2025-11-18 01:45:45 +0100 <yin> right. i had that but (x t) looked weird to me :)
2025-11-18 01:46:36 +0100 <EvanR> the usual way to introduce a way to "dynamically" replace a behavior is to use an event
2025-11-18 01:46:55 +0100 <EvanR> something like Signal a -> Event (Signal a) -> Signal a
2025-11-18 01:47:16 +0100 <EvanR> the signal is replaced with the event payload when/if it happens. Before before any events, the first argument applies
2025-11-18 01:49:19 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:fb28:6c11:a653:72c4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:49:59 +0100 <monochrom> If you think call/cc, you're a low-level person. It's not wrong, it just may be very helpful or very distracting depending on your purpose.
2025-11-18 01:51:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2025-11-18 01:52:33 +0100 <jackdk> I got a lot out of (in order): this old "FRP - Events and Behaviours" talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXW1jBijhlk, the diagrams in the reactive-banana package, and https://github.com/qfpl/reflex-workshop/ (for hands-on experience). They might help you get your head around the mental models
2025-11-18 01:52:35 +0100 <yin> monochrom: it just had the same smell in my purposeless mind, that's all
2025-11-18 01:53:01 +0100 <monochrom> It's OK. Lately I smelled Yoneda lemma everywhere anyway. :)
2025-11-18 01:54:10 +0100 <yin> jackdk: tyvm
2025-11-18 01:54:35 +0100 <monochrom> (The smell was correct. It really was Yoneda lemma. Know every angle, all of them are helpful.)
2025-11-18 01:57:05 +0100 <EvanR> was this a programming situation or category theory
2025-11-18 01:58:50 +0100 <yin> yes
2025-11-18 01:59:03 +0100 <yin> :)
2025-11-18 01:59:58 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e717199494cb24f290a326c5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2025-11-18 02:02:54 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) turlando
2025-11-18 02:03:07 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 02:04:34 +0100infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg) infinity0
2025-11-18 02:07:46 +0100 <monochrom> Suppose σ permutes arrays of length n. I can apply it to the "identity array" [0 .. n-1], i.e., define e := σ [0 .. n-1]. Then I can use e instead of σ to permute other arrays: To permute v, (σ v)[i] = v[e[i]] for each i. In the vector library, you can just write `V.backpermute e v`.
2025-11-18 02:08:11 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-11-18 02:08:13 +0100 <monochrom> Turns out this was foretold by the Yoneda lemma too!
2025-11-18 02:08:50 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-11-18 02:10:41 +0100 <monochrom> Model "array of length n with elements of type a" as N->a, N = {0 .. n-1}. Then permutations are a special cases of (N->a) -> (N->a). Then Yoneda embedding says that it's isomorphic to N->N, the forward mapping maps σ to σ id, id = [0 .. n-1].
2025-11-18 02:11:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Zemyla> So is there a type that represents a combination?
2025-11-18 02:12:01 +0100 <monochrom> And the backward mapping maps e to \v -> v ∘ e
2025-11-18 02:12:14 +0100 <monochrom> I don't know! Not interested for now.
2025-11-18 02:12:55 +0100 <EvanR> sounds like the theory of group action
2025-11-18 02:13:27 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) peterbecich
2025-11-18 02:14:38 +0100trickard_trickard
2025-11-18 02:15:25 +0100 <monochrom> Moreover, it also hints that σ id is "backwards": It maps new indexes to old indexes. How to see it: Use N for old indexes, N' for new indexes. Then (N->a) -> (N'->a) is isomorphic to N' -> N.
2025-11-18 02:15:27 +0100AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.162.20)
2025-11-18 02:16:42 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-11-18 02:16:58 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.151.158) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 02:17:08 +0100 <monochrom> So yeah it's both programming and category theory. I was coding up LU factorization with pivoting, and I recorded the permutation of rows by performing the same permutation on [0 .. n-1] and returning it.
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2025-11-18 02:18:55 +0100AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.151.158) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-11-18 02:21:50 +0100 <monochrom> Combination may be N->2. Each of n elements may be chosen or not-chosen.
2025-11-18 02:23:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-11-18 02:24:07 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Zemyla> True.
2025-11-18 02:24:50 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.162.20)
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2025-11-18 04:38:51 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
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2025-11-18 05:20:55 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2025-11-18 05:22:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-18 05:23:29 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@85-238-67-234.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-18 05:23:44 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-11-18 05:32:35 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 05:37:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-11-18 05:48:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 05:52:39 +0100synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:6993:feea:8b51:a565) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-18 05:53:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-18 05:53:44 +0100Square3(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 05:54:22 +0100synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:2412:2c00:6993:feea:8b51:a565) synchromesh
2025-11-18 06:00:08 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d75-159-126-101.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-11-18 06:04:10 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 06:07:53 +0100gustrb(~gustrb@user/gustrb) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-18 06:09:02 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 06:09:06 +0100gustrb(~gustrb@191.243.134.87)
2025-11-18 06:10:41 +0100Googulator23(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-11-18 06:10:41 +0100Googulator(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-18 06:17:42 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) peterbecich
2025-11-18 06:19:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 06:24:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-11-18 06:35:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 06:42:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-18 06:42:44 +0100mange(~mange@user/mange) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-18 06:49:27 +0100oppili(~oppili@user/nerdypepper) nerdy
2025-11-18 06:53:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 06:54:11 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-50-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-11-18 06:54:22 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-62-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-18 06:54:56 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.215)
2025-11-18 06:58:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-11-18 07:03:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 07:09:56 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 07:10:34 +0100takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
2025-11-18 07:20:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-18 07:21:34 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-18 07:22:50 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2025-11-18 07:25:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-18 07:27:38 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) Lycurgus
2025-11-18 07:30:34 +0100Googulator16(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-11-18 07:30:39 +0100Googulator23(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-18 07:33:19 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-18 07:35:35 +0100Googulator67(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu)
2025-11-18 07:35:40 +0100Googulator16(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0231-4475-80b4-5cdc-43d6.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-18 07:36:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn